Wherefore Art Thou, Gog?

[Jericho]

If Gog were the AC Israel is no longer at peace starting at the AOD when the AC/Gog attacks. How could Israel build a temple and have animal sacrifices if there wasn't peace? How could the AC sit in the temple?

Hello Seeker, I'm not sure I understand the question you are asking but I will describe a possible scenario for you. It is difficult for me to imagine the Muslims being okay with any arrangement with Israel to rebuild there temple. Anwar Sadat was assassinated for making peace with Israel, for example. I believe the Muslims opposition would have to be removed first, if not by the Psalm 83 war than by the Magog war. So if Magog was a pre-trib event that could open up a of temporary window of peace for Israel to rebuild her temple unmolested.

I could see how the Islamic theory could work if Magog and Armageddon where one in the same, but this is where we differ in opinion on the timing of the Magog invasion (which is the big game changer). I hope you can also see how my scenario would work if Magog happens first and the Muslim opposition was removed from being a threat. Yes the Muslims are the main enemy of Israel today, but remember Israel is going to be a burden stone to the whole world. Anti-semitism isn't just reserved for the Muslims, Hitler is a prime example of that.

[1whowaits]

Mark, i would agree that we cannot be dogmatic about much of prophetic scripture, the information given is not always clear, i attempt to make an assessment based on the information provided, what is most probable considering the scripture that discusses the subject.

I realize that i am willing to go out on a limb further than you do as far as interpretation and linking scriptures together, i am attempting to link certain scriptures together to see if a common theme develops.

I believe Joel 2 is describing Gog-Magog for the reasons listed, and there may be an indirect link somewhere else that may be a little thin.

The 1st trumpet does describe hail and fire mixed with blood that is hurled down on the earth, and 1/3 of the earth is burned. Although the parallel is thin this does appear to be a similar description of the judgement poured out on Gog in Ezek 38, and fire is sent on Magog and the coastlands which could parallel the burning of the earth in the 1st trumpet.

The second trumpet describes a mountain falling into the sea and destroying ships and sea life. The 3rd trumpet describes another strike on the land, the 4th trumpet the sun and moon being darkened by a third.

The first 4 trumpets do appear to be describing the results of an asteroid/comet strike upon the earth. An asteriod coming into the ocean would explode at the surface or in the atmosphere and superheat the surrounding air for miles, depending on the size of the comet. This explosion could vaporize the water below and destroy sea life for many miles and destroy ships with the resulting Tsunamis.

If any land mass were nearby the superheated atmosphere would also burn the land and plant life to a crisp. It would also eject debris into the upper atmosphere and the sun and moon could be darkened for months or years.

In more simple terms the sea is destroyed and so is the land, and this basic outcome is mentoned in another scripture. Amos 7 describes a judgement that was to come- 'The Soverign Lord was calling for judgement by fire, it dried up the great deep and devoured the land.' Drying up the great deep, an ocean, and devouring the land are basically the effects of what the 1st and 2nd trumpets describe, the trumpets describe the cause and some of the effects, Amos 7 describes the basic effects of what occurs at the trumpets.

And the judgement that preceeds the drying up of the deep in Amos 7 is an attack on Israel by the locusts (the Sept. apparently uses the name Gog in the description for some reason), which could parallel Joel 2 and the locust army attack on Israel.

So there could be an indirect link between Gog-magog in Ezek and the trumpets of Rev, the trumpets of Rev and Amos 7 and the deep being dried up, and Amos 7 and the locust attack being a parallel description of the locust attack of Joel 2. This could then suggest a link between Ezek 38 and Joel 2 with both possibly describing the same event, Gog-Magog.

Although Amos 7 describes a past possible judgement, it could also refer to a future event as it does refer to a method of measuring being used in reference to Jerusalem and the people of Israel, which does appear to have future fulfillment in Zech 2 and Rev 11.

So it may be that the battle of Gog-Magog will end but the destruction will not be over, there will be more judgement to follow. I realize the links between the scriptures are a bit thin but there could be something there, i obviously can't be dogmatic about it.

[mark s]

Hi 1whowaits,

While I agree the connection is a bit tenuous, I see what you are looking at. As I read Amos 7, it says that God shows the prophet each of these in turn, saying that He would not do them.

I'm looking at the apparent unstoppability of the Joel 2 army, and that YHWH is at the head of "His" army.

So there ya go.

I also, btw, think that the destruction of Gog/Magog will be the first trumpet.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Here's my view on the subject if anyone is interested.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=52532

RT

[1whowaits]

RT, appreciate the blast from the past. You have some good points about Gog-Magog occurring at the middle of the week. For myself, it appears that the Gog battle is shortlived and not drawn out over 3.5 years, God dispatches His enemies quickly, when He sends judgement in the manner described in Ezek 38 the forces of Gog would not last long.

As far as equating Gog with the AC i feel like we are falling into the same dilemma as those looking for the coming of the Messiah in the OT. They would see all the passages referring to the Messiah as referring to the same event when in reality 2 separate events, 2 separate comings of the Messiah, were actually being portrayed. Although there may have been some similarities in descriptions of the coming of the Messiah the differences would allow one to determine that 2 separate events were being described.

I suppose i am attempting to tie several loose ends together here, we know much about the end of the 70th week but it appears that we know little about the beginning of the week and how things like the trumpets and bowls are timed. I believe the conditions of Israel prior to Gog and after Gog would place the event prior to the AOD, and the mentioning of 7 years of weapons burning would appear to be deliberate and would place the event toward the beginning of the 70th week.

From there the similarity of the judgement at Gog and the 1st trumpet could tie those passages together. As the seals, trumpets and bowls all end with what appears to be the same event, the thunder, lightning, etc., i believe the seals may run somewhat in parallel to the trumpets, occuring during the same period, and there may be something that ties them together.

The 2nd and 3rd trumpets describe what appears to be an asteriod/comet strike and actually appear to describe 2 strikes. The first strike is a mountain that impacts the sea, the second a star that blazes like a torch that appears to cover a large area in some sort of fallout. The first strike appears to be an asteriod or comet while the second could also be a comet exploding at altitude. Comets and asteroids have similar chemical makeup but comets appear to have more hydrogen and oxygen in frozen form which could explode as the comet heats up. Comets and asteriods can be made up of multiple elements including arsenic, which could explain the effects of the 3rd trumpet, a comet containing arsenic that exploded at altitude would poison the waters for hundreds of miles.

In each case of the 2nd and 3rd trumpet, the comet/asteriod bodies could be seen as 2 large masses of rock, 2 large 'mountains' coming down on the earth. Which may tie into Zech 6- 'I looked up again- and there before me were 4 chariots coming out from between two mountains- mountains of bronze.' I have often wondered what 2 mountains of broze would be, where would they be located. While the metals usually referred to in scripture -iron, gold and silver, are basically single elements, only bronze is a combination of metals, copper and tin. As are asteriods and comets, ususally iron and nickel, but also copper and various other metals, in essence asteriods and comets are mountains of combined metals.

The 2 mountains of combined metals (bronze) in Zech 6 could picture the 2 mountains of combined metals that fall at the 2nd and 3rd trumpet. The chariots of 4 sets of horses of varying colors could parallel the 4 horsemen of the 4 seals, which could tie the seals with the trumpets and Gog-Magog in the same timeframe.

Gog-Magog, the 1st trumpet, followed by 2 mountains striking the earth, the 2nd and 3rd trumpets, from which the 4 horsemen are released could make sense, the aftermath of the 2nd and 3rd trumpets could certainly be associated with the destruction described at the seals.

And from Zech 1 it may be that the horsemen, the 4 'craftsmen', are sent when the 4 horns or rulers of the gentile nations divide Israel, Judah and Jerusalem, which they are doing even now.

So it may be that we know more about the time surrounding the beginning of the week than we realize.

[Exit40]

Hi 1whowaits...

As far as equating Gog with the AC i feel like we are falling into the same dilemma as those looking for the coming of the Messiah in the OT. They would see all the passages referring to the Messiah as referring to the same event when in reality 2 separate events, 2 separate comings of the Messiah, were actually being portrayed. Although there may have been some similarities in descriptions of the coming of the Messiah the differences would allow one to determine that 2 separate events were being described.

I've been coming to the conclusion there are two separate gog wars, separated by time. Not seven years though, but 1000 years. The differences between the two descriptions...Well, here is an article that addresses this...

The Two (Not One) Gog/Magog Wars

God Bless You

David

[1whowaits]

David, i would agree that there are 2 events associated with the names Gog and Magog. The first occurs sometime prior to the millenium, which we are discussing, and the 2nd occurs at the end of the millenium. The question would be why the names of Gog and Magog used a for the event at the end of the millenium while the main event is the pre-millenial event. I believe that the end of millenium event may tell us something about the pre-millenial event, there is something that is paralleled in the events.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

The question would be why the names of Gog and Magog used a for the event at the end of the millenium while the main event is the pre-millenial event. I believe that the end of millenium event may tell us something about the pre-millenial event, there is something that is paralleled in the events.

I addressed this in the thread that I linked to in my previous post. It was common during biblical times to address the descendants of a common ancestor by that ancestor's name. Those that are gathered against Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium are descended from those who went against Jerusalem at the first Gog/Magog invasion. They are descended from the nations that joined with Gog/Magog to fight. I agree that this tells us something about the pre-mil event. At least in my opinion anyway, it sheds light on timing, because those who survive of the nations that go against Israel at the pre-mil event are also those who will enter into the Millennium. Now I know that some do not believe that there will be any survivors of those nations, but that is not what scripture teaches:

Zechariah 14:16-17
16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.
17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

I believe as I said in my linked post, that Gog/Magog is a prolonged war that begins at or subsequent to the midpoint of the "week" and ends with the battle of Armageddon. Though all those gathered armies will be destroyed by the sword of the Lord, there will be survivors from those nations, who were not part of the armies gathered, but civilians who survive.
These survivors repopulate the earth during the millennium, and are subject to the rule of Christ. Until Stan is loosed and he once again regathers those descendants of Gog/Magog- the nations who repopulated the earth during the millennium:

Revelation 20:7-9
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Note how the passage says that Gog and Magog are now occupying the four corners of the earth, meaning that basically the nations that are throughout the earth are descended from Gog and Magog survivors with the exception of those who are camped at Jerusalem (the beloved city). They will have grown in number as the sand on the seashore by the end of the millennium. IMO this is an indication that the Gog Magog war ends at the battle of Armageddon, because the descendants of those who survive and enter into the Millennium are associated with Gog and Magog at the end of the Millennium.

(Am I making sense?)

RT

[1whowaits]

RT, yes you are making sense. I would have an alternate view, in Ezek Gog refers to a specific individual while Magog refers to a specific nation, while in Rev all the nations apparently are referred to in reference to Gog-magog, this would be a difference not a parallel. The point that sticks out to me regarding Gog-magog in Rev is that Satan is released from the Abyss, at the end of the millenium Satan is unleashed.

The parallel may be Satan himself, Satan is unleashed at the end of the millenium and deceives the nations to attack at Gog-Magog II, and Satan may be 'unleashed' around the time of Gog-Magog I. The time of 'unleashing' would appear to be the opening of the seals, the restraints appear to come off, evil appears to increase.

As far as timing, i would suppose that most of us can agree that we are not in the GT, there has been no AOD, and any battle that occurs in the near term would not be armageddon. And we cannot really identify any 7 year covenant that has been confirmed at this point so we have no evidence that the 70th week has even started yet.

So if in the next year or 2 the muslim nations gather together and someone leads them against Israel we can agree that the event is not armageddon, correct? So if it is not armageddon then it would likely be Gog-magog, and if there has been no AOD or covenant confirmed, Gog-Magog would have occurred prior to the beginning of the week, correct?

So as the muslim nations appear to be rejecting their current governments and ripening for a leader or Mahdi, at this point in time would it be more likely that Gog-Magog will occur prior to or at the beginning of the 70th week, considering the reality we see in the ME?

And if there is a covenant confirmed and an obvious AOD in a rebuilt temple then i will agree with Seeker. Up until that point we will have to wait and see.

And just an astronomy FYI, may or may not be interesting, we appear to have 2 comets inbound at the present time. Comet Honda will make an approach in Aug, during the month of AV (interesting considering the 3 eclipses on the 1st of AV for the preceeding 3 years. And i believe Isa 18 refers to something occurring to the 'land of wings' in association with the time of the ripening grape which could be a reference to AV). And comet Elenin which makes an approach in the fall in Oct, sometime after the fall feasts (Joel 2 may make an association with Gog-Magog and the Day of Atonement). Comets can be associated with judgement, Josephus stated that there was a comet like a sword over Jerusalem before its destruction. just sayin'- wait and see.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

The point that sticks out to me regarding Gog-magog in Rev is that Satan is released from the Abyss, at the end of the millenium Satan is unleashed.

The parallel may be Satan himself, Satan is unleashed at the end of the millenium and deceives the nations to attack at Gog-Magog II, and Satan may be 'unleashed' around the time of Gog-Magog I. The time of 'unleashing' would appear to be the opening of the seals, the restraints appear to come off, evil appears to increase.

Hadn't seen that before- but yes that is very interesting.

I agree that in Ezekiel the reference to Gog is to an individual- a leader who gathers nations to himself to follow with him in war against Israel- your point regarding Satan is interesting, the word Gog means "mountain" and Magog means "covering", the mountain from covering. Wasn't Satan called the covering cherub in Ezekiel?

Ezekiel 28:14-16
14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers,
And I placed you there.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.

So if in the next year or 2 the muslim nations gather together and someone leads them against Israel we can agree that the event is not armageddon, correct?

Yes I agree

So if it is not armageddon then it would likely be Gog-magog, and if there has been no AOD or covenant confirmed, Gog-Magog would have occurred prior to the beginning of the week, correct?

not necessarily, it could be a separate battle like Pslam 83. Though I do believe there will be many who will make the claim that it is Gog/Magog.

So as the muslim nations appear to be rejecting their current governments and ripening for a leader or Mahdi, at this point in time would it be more likely that Gog-Magog will occur prior to or at the beginning of the 70th week, considering the reality we see in the ME?

Again there may indeed be some kind of battle that preceeds the 70th week that I think many will believe is gog/magog. I still see no contradiction with a mid week start to the battle mentioned in Ezekiel 38. The outcome of Gog/magog in Ezekiel is the restoration of Israel- not only nationally but spiritually. This is the outcome of all the prophets who speak of the day of the Lord and is what will be accomplished throughout the 70th week. According to Ezekiel, what follows the victory of the Gog/magog war is the Millennial kingdom, thus the battle must conclude with the advent of the 1000 year reign of Christ. I see no contradiction with scripture and the view that the battle begins around the midpoint and then concludes at Armageddon. I see the opening of the abyss as occurring at or just before the midpoint, this is what I would say unleashes the "destroyer" and parallels the opening of the abyss in Revelation, rather than the seals as you say. ( I see the seals as occurring prior to the 70th week).

Again the idea that the Gog of Ezekiel is a certain individual and Magog a certain nation, does not take away from the idea that the future nations that fill the earth during the Millennium are not descended from the survivors of what is and will be known as the Gog Magog war, which is why they are called Gog Magog. I see it as both a difference and a parallel. If you look at the battle beginning at the midpoint with this individual Gog from the nation of Magog, and then see him gather allies to himself throughout the second half of the week, until all the world has gathered to fight against the Lamb.Then you can easily see how those who survive from the nations of the earth and their descendants would be called Gog Magog, in this way the post mil. war is different than the pre-mil war. But it parallels in that Satan is released from the abyss (again) to deceive the nations into going against those encamped at Jerusalem.

And if there is a covenant confirmed and an obvious AOD in a rebuilt temple then i will agree with Seeker. Up until that point we will have to wait and see.

Yes I agree, until I see some confirmed covenant and a rebuilt temple- I will not believe we are in the 70th week yet. And like you said-" we will have to wait and see".

RT

[Exit40]

So if in the next year or 2 the muslim nations gather together and someone leads them against Israel we can agree that the event is not armageddon, correct? So if it is not armageddon then it would likely be Gog-magog, and if there has been no AOD or covenant confirmed, Gog-Magog would have occurred prior to the beginning of the week, correct?

If you believe there is a 7 year peace treaty/covenant with Israel confirmed by the AC then your conclusions would be accurate.

So as the muslim nations appear to be rejecting their current governments and ripening for a leader or Mahdi, at this point in time would it be more likely that Gog-Magog will occur prior to or at the beginning of the 70th week, considering the reality we see in the ME?

Once again, if you believe the 70th week in it's entirety is future, your conclusions are entirely plausible. But consider this, nowhere in Prophecy are we told to look for a covenant confirmed by the AC in the future. I know where you are going to go with this, but Our Lord Himself in the Olivet Discourse states the most important issue to look for is the AOD. Everything prior to that is in the signs category. Everything after is the GT and end of the week Prophecies, the last half of the week. So why are we all looking for a 7 year peace treaty ? If our premise is to look for one we are subject to the details of Scripture not fitting precisely any paradigm. That is why the ENPI failed as a paradigm, and it will be why the islamic paradigm as generally known will ultimately fail. The depth of Scripture must be met to the tiniest detail, and our premise must be spot on or we will miss the mark and struggle to reconcile differences. We are heading into a time of great deception. We must be careful about what we call gog/magog.

God Bless You

David

[Mr Baldy]

Our Lord Himself in the Olivet Discourse states the most important issue to look for is the AOD. Everything prior to that is in the signs category. Everything after is the GT and end of the week Prophecies, the last half of the week. So why are we all looking for a 7 year peace treaty ? If our premise is to look for one we are subject to the details of Scripture not fitting precisely any paradigm. That is why the ENPI failed as a paradigm, and it will be why the islamic paradigm as generally known will ultimately fail. The depth of Scripture must be met to the tiniest detail, and our premise must be spot on or we will miss the mark and struggle to reconcile differences. We are heading into a time of great deception. We must be careful about what we call gog/magog.

Hi David,

I like what you have said here. Especially your remark about looking for the AOD - which is the point in which "Great Tribulation" will commence. Respectfully however, I believe that you actually make a minor err when you mention the fact that "our premise must be spot on" when looking at the tiniest detail of Scripture; in that we may not see the tiniest detail, or have faulty interpretation. Only in hindsight may we actually see it, and perhaps even then it is only revealed by God Himself - but yet Scripture will have been fulfilled. I say that because we do have a Covenant with Many that has been "confirmed" by way of the ENP(I); and that for 7 years - which is still very active. There are events that we who have been watching "expected" to see - but as you have mentioned, we were told by Jesus Himself to "look" for the AOD, and not some previous event. In light of everything that is going on in the World today - don't be surprised if the AOD occurs at some point during this same 7 year "active" timeframe. At this point, I think that it would be premature to rule the ENP(I) because even Scripture has proven that men don't always see the "tiniest" details of any prophetic occurrence, or event. That was proven when Christ came the first time.

[1whowaits]

David, i am not looking for a 7 year peace to be confirmed, i believe the covenant that is confirmed for 7 years is the Old Covenant, and that would make sense as an event that would follow Israel's return after Gog-Magog. The Old Covenant was to be read before the people and in a sense 'confirmed' every 7 years according to Moses in Deut., and as the temple is rebuilt and the OT sacrificial system is restarted prior to the AOD, it would be likely that the 'covenant confirmed' would be associated with the Old Covenant, if not that very covenant.

Jesus does appear to be referring to the 70th week in Matt 24, by mentioning the abomination spoken of by Daniel. The abomination is referred to in Dan 8, 9, 11 and 12 and it is likely that the same abomination is being referred to in each case, so Jesus is referring to an event within the 70th week.

But Jesus does not say look for the covenant or the beginning of the week, He describes wars and rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines and earthquakes, as events occurring prior to the AOD. And as wars and famines and earthquakes have been going on even prior to the time of Jesus, it would appear that Jesus is referring to a level of war, famine and earthquakes that mankind has not seen before, otherwise mentioning this in the context of the time of the end would make little sense. And these events may seem like the end but Jesus states they are not the end, they are the beginning of birthpangs, the beginning of the end.

And that is the point i am attempting to make here, that it appears that something major preceeds the week, there are other events that may preceed the confirming of the covenant. I have attempted to demonstrate that there may be a connection between the trumpets and the seals and Gog-Magog, and Gog-Magog has a period of 7 years following it, likely palcing it at the beginning of or just prior to the 70th week.

If Gog-Magog occurs first then the stage would be set, the muslim threat would be elimnated, Israel would return to the Lord in her OT ways, the Old Covenant would be confirmed and the temple would be rebuilt. And if Gog-Magog were associated with the trumpets and seals the nations of the world would experience unparalleled destruction, they would be terrorized and thrown down as Zech 1 describes. And all this could occur before the week has yet begun.

So i don't believe the confirming of the covenant is the next event, it will be something much worse. And according to Zech 1 it appears that it is the nations dividing up of Israel that initiates the events, which of course appears to be occurring now

[Exit40]

Hi David,

Only in hindsight may we actually see it, and perhaps even then it is only revealed by God Himself - but yet Scripture will have been fulfilled....

At this point, I think that it would be premature to rule the ENP(I) because even Scripture has proven that men don't always see the "tiniest" details of any prophetic occurrence, or event. That was proven when Christ came the first time.

Don't I know that Brother. After crawling carefully through copious Scripture looking for witness I am left with a feeling that I am missing something. Or the mystery isn't revealed yet. I definitely have a feeling of foreboding. Yup, we may miss the tiniest detail and not know of actual fulfillment. Or misunderstand. But I do believe the Lord will reveal to some at least what has happened, so His Word about it can be spread throughout our community.

Just had a thought, do you know how many muslim nations are involved in the ENPI program ? Are they separate from Israel or is this a blanket program. Turkey is who I am particularly interested in.

God Bless You

David

[Mr Baldy]

Just had a thought, do you know how many muslim nations are involved in the ENPI program ?

Hi David,

This should tell you all that you need, and why I believe that the ENP(I) is still viable.

Here is the link: http://ec.europa.eu/world/enp/policy_en.htm

[Exit40]

David, i am not looking for a 7 year peace to be confirmed, i believe the covenant that is confirmed for 7 years is the Old Covenant, and that would make sense as an event that would follow Israel's return after Gog-Magog. The Old Covenant was to be read before the people and in a sense 'confirmed' every 7 years according to Moses in Deut., and as the temple is rebuilt and the OT sacrificial system is restarted prior to the AOD, it would be likely that the 'covenant confirmed' would be associated with the Old Covenant, if not that very covenant.

Hi 1whowaits. I had come to that conclusion also. Where I ran into confusion was how could Israel be scattered again after gog I and then regathered again, and then fall away again. Couldn't find it in Scripture. I'm sure we agree Israel today is not fully regathered ?

Ezekiel 39:7, 22, 28-29 (HCSB) — 7 So I will make My holy name known among My people Israel and will no longer allow it to be profaned. Then the nations will know that I am Yahweh, the Holy One in Israel. ... 22 From that day forward the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God. ... 28 They will know that I am the LORD their God when I regather them to their own land after having exiled them among the nations. I will leave none of them behind. 29 I will no longer hide My face from them, for I will pour out My Spirit on the house of Israel.

After gog I the nations, His people Israel, in fact the house of Israel, will know He is the Lord their God. He regathers them from their post gog I exile leaving none behind and pours out His Spirit on them. I know you believe it is possible for them to then fall away again in a short time span. I don't believe this is possible. And yes I believe Israel recognizes their Messiah in the person of Lord Jesus as the Son of God post gog I.

Gotta run for a minute. I'll be back.

God Bless You Brother

David

[Exit40]

OK, back to gog I and gog II. Even though we have seen Eze 38 and 39 as describing the same battle there are subtle but notable differences. I believe there are two battles being described in these chapters, and they overlap each other in portions in some cases describing the similarities, in others describing the differences. Net result, two battles with the conditions of Israel at each being the determining factor for the timing.

Eze 38:11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Dwelling safely, no walls etc, and the important factor is.... at rest. When does Israel rest ? On the Sabbath. Does all Israel rest on the Sabbath today ? I don't think so. According to this verse it is all of them. So my suggestion is in this verse we are looking at Israel in the Millenium, with the coming invasion of gog being gog II.

Now you may say 39 states the same thing, but...

Eze 39:25 ¶ Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made [them] afraid.

It's not just Jacob here, but the whole house of Israel. They are the lost ten tribes who are dwelling safely in their own land, where they are living today. They are dwelling safely because they don't know they are Jews, and neither does anybody else, so no persecution as in the persecution of national Israel. None of them are afraid of that. All their shame and trespasses are what has caused them to be driven into their current exile. And of course Jacob is scattered in this gog too. This is during the course of gog I. Recall that the Lord saves Judah first, then the house of Israel. Here are verses that witness to that.

Gotta run again, busy day. Back soon.

God Bless You

David

[Mrs. B]

Wherefore Art Thou, Gog?



we may get our answer soon....Mrs. B

[Mrs. B]

Wherefore Art Thou, Gog?



we may get our answer soon....Mrs. B

[Jay Ross]

Is not Gog associated with the King of the North and has not the King of the North already gone out against the land of Babylon and shown his hand to us and does not the King of the North live near the edge of the earth relative to Jerusalem?

[benny balerio]

David, i am not looking for a 7 year peace to be confirmed, i believe the covenant that is confirmed for 7 years is the Old Covenant, and that would make sense as an event that would follow Israel's return after Gog-Magog. The Old Covenant was to be read before the people and in a sense 'confirmed' every 7 years according to Moses in Deut., and as the temple is rebuilt and the OT sacrificial system is restarted prior to the AOD, it would be likely that the 'covenant confirmed' would be associated with the Old Covenant, if not that very covenant.

Jesus does appear to be referring to the 70th week in Matt 24, by mentioning the abomination spoken of by Daniel. The abomination is referred to in Dan 8, 9, 11 and 12 and it is likely that the same abomination is being referred to in each case, so Jesus is referring to an event within the 70th week.

But Jesus does not say look for the covenant or the beginning of the week, He describes wars and rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, famines and earthquakes, as events occurring prior to the AOD. And as wars and famines and earthquakes have been going on even prior to the time of Jesus, it would appear that Jesus is referring to a level of war, famine and earthquakes that mankind has not seen before, otherwise mentioning this in the context of the time of the end would make little sense. And these events may seem like the end but Jesus states they are not the end, they are the beginning of birthpangs, the beginning of the end.

And that is the point i am attempting to make here, that it appears that something major preceeds the week, there are other events that may preceed the confirming of the covenant. I have attempted to demonstrate that there may be a connection between the trumpets and the seals and Gog-Magog, and Gog-Magog has a period of 7 years following it, likely palcing it at the beginning of or just prior to the 70th week.

If Gog-Magog occurs first then the stage would be set, the muslim threat would be elimnated, Israel would return to the Lord in her OT ways, the Old Covenant would be confirmed and the temple would be rebuilt. And if Gog-Magog were associated with the trumpets and seals the nations of the world would experience unparalleled destruction, they would be terrorized and thrown down as Zech 1 describes. And all this could occur before the week has yet begun.

So i don't believe the confirming of the covenant is the next event, it will be something much worse. And according to Zech 1 it appears that it is the nations dividing up of Israel that initiates the events, which of course appears to be occurring now

You Quote:
If Gog-Magog occurs first then the stage would be set, the muslim threat would be elimnated, Israel would return to the Lord in her OT ways, the Old Covenant would be confirmed and the temple would be rebuilt. And if Gog-Magog were associated with the trumpets and seals the nations of the world would experience unparalleled destruction, they would be terrorized and thrown down as Zech 1 describes. And all this could occur before the week has yet begun.

So i don't believe the confirming of the covenant is the next event, it will be something much worse. And according to Zech 1 it appears that it is the nations dividing up of Israel that initiates the events, which of course appears to be occurring now.

My Reply:
You are almost dead on target in your understanding here.
But if you look deeper,..you will realize that the dividing of the land unto the nations,..will only occur when the A.O.D. comes to pass.Joel 3:2.......Joel chapter 2 is the gog-magog that occurs just slightly prior to Daniels 70th week.
and Joel chapter 3 is the battle of armageddon.
Again,...Ezekiel 38 is the battle of Gog-Magog,..and starting with Ezekiel 39:17 is about armegeddon.
I will give you a clearer picture tomorrow as in putting this all together,....I assure you all that we are all on the edge of eternity in these last days.....its late and if the Lord willing,..I'll explain this in the morning....God Bless you all.

[Exit40]

Where is Magog, Meshech and Tubal?

I was not entirely surprised to see that one of my most recent articles, Does Psalm 83 Describe the New Middle-East War? has led to a quite a bit of controversy on some prophecy blogs. It appears as though the gist of the disagreement revolves around two things: (1) A map I included in my article of the invading nations of Ezekiel 38 & 39’s oracle often referred to as the Battle of Gog of Magog, wherein I located Magog, Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Togarmah all in Asia Minor or modern day Turkey, and (2) my identification of the lands controlled by Assyria during the reign of King David, and the ministry of Asaph. It seems these two points have raised the ire of some fellow students of the Bible. Thus, very briefly, I’d like to address these two issues.

First, below is my map detailing the nations mentioned in Ezekiel 38 & 39’s oracle concerning the Battle of Gog of Magog:...

http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?p=2545#more-2545

God Bless

David

[benny balerio]

At this time we see all the signs of a great war brewing in the middle east.
I believe that it is a war that consists of the prophecies of Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17;1.
With that thought in mind,...please be aware that the nations mentioned in Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17;1....are not at all mentioned in Ezekiel 38.

Also keep in mind that the way is clear for Russia to someday make it's mad dash to the south in it's foretold prophetic attack against Israel.
In the Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17;1 prophecies,..The nations mentioned involved,...I call them the "Inner ring" nations that touch Israel's borders today,...and the Islamic nations that are involved with Russia in the future attack abainst Israel I call them the "outter ring" nations.

Based on all the incoming news in the last few weeks, it does seem that there will be a war in the middle east in the next few weeks.
In the meantime,...we are all witnessing other major prophecies occuring such as "The Ten" in the European Union and the possible collapse of it's monetary structure.There is talk that some of the E.U. nations may break away, and become their own soverien nations again,...but if this does not happen,..then I assure you that these E.U. nations are hanging on by a thread,..in which I believe that the Rapture of the Bride will be the event that breaks the economy in the E.U.
Thereby causing the E. U. nations to dissolve, but leaving only "The Ten" to remain on the scene.

I do believe that in the aftermath of the coming Psalms 83 and Isaiah 17;1 war,..........that Israel will destroy all of the islamic nations that touch her borders today, and will annex them as Greater Israel.
Do you remember the scriptures in Genesis 15..?
If you will do the research,..you will find that the Propmise that God made Abraham to his descendants in the amount of land that He assigned them did consist of a small slice of Egypt,....all of Jordan,....all of Lebanon,...all of Syria,...Northern Iraq,....and 1/3rd of Saudi Arabia..........WOW!!!......Do you realize that if Israel obtains all the land that I just mentioned, that She would be very very wealthy and the envy of the world!
With that thought in mind,....read Ezekiel 36;11.....you will read the Words saying:.."and will make you prosper more than before"
In the past,..the wealth of Israel had reached it's Pinnicle during the time of Solomon.And Yet the Lord says.."and will make you prosper more than before"

When this war is over and done with,..Israel will be very wealthy and,..considering that she has destroyed the "Inner Ring" of Islamic nations that touch her borders today,...She will be dwelling "CARELESSLY IN PEACE AND SAFETY"
This is a requirement before the Ezekiel 38 prophecy can come to pass!

The Day Of the Lord beginns with Ezekiel 38;18-20.......AH!!!...We know that the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the Air prior to The Day of the Lord.


When we read 1 Thessalonians 5;3...we observe the following:
What stands out are the words..."They"......"Them"..."Destruction"...and...."They"
When I see the Word Destruction,..I am reminded of 1 Thessalonians 1;10 which is clear that the Lord rescues us from the wrath to come....In other words......"Before it occurs"
It is always after a war that people cry out for peace and safety...in other words,..I believe these words will be spoken after the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17;1 comes to pass.
Take notice that the Words..."THEY"..."THEM"....AND "THEY" in 1 Thessalonians 5;3 indicates that this is what the "WORLD" will be crying out,..and also keep in mind that the Bride is not of the World.

Prior to the Day of Pentecost,..the Jewish race were Gods People,..But they Rejected Him, not believing that He was their long awaited Messiah.
So The Lord decides that He would gather a people for His own out of the Gentile nations.
Today,..there is no difference between Jew and Gentile to those in Christ Jesus.
This will continue to be so up until the "Fullness of the Gentiles" has come in.
Only God the Father knows who that last person will be that will complete the full number of the Bride in this church age.
But once that last person comes into the church,...the Church age will be over and the rapture will occur.
From Genesis up until the Cross,..was without the Bride,....the last 7 years too will be without the Bride.

Do take notice that Daniel 9;24 Gabriel says to Daniel....."Daniel this is what is going to happen to your people"
The key Words here are...."YOUR PEOPLE"
Daniels people we all know are the Jewish race.
Again,...Remember that I pointed out earlier that the Day of the Lord begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20...and that the Bride is rescued just prior to The Day of the Lord(1 Thessalonians 1;10)
Well,....Ezekiel 38;14.....God says the Words "MY PEOPLE ISRAEL"...The Lord here is calling Israel once again His people.
This here is a clue that the rapture had already occured prior to Gog-Magog war.

Now for the Icing on the cake:
Read Psalms 83;3...notice that it uses the Words..."YOUR PEOPLE" in which he is referring to Israel.
This once again indicates that the Bride was already gone.
We know that this war will occur at an unknown day and hour,..and we know that the rapture too occurs at an unknown day and hour.
I believe that we are all on the Edge of Eternity.
If you have any loose ends,...like people you want to witness too,..I advise that you do it now!......God Bless you all.