Wherefore Art Thou, Gog?

[mark s]

Until the cows come home? Where do they go when they are not at home?

Roaming to and fro across the face of the earth . . . of course!

[Exit40]

Until the cows come home? Where do they go when they are not at home?

Roaming to and fro across the face of the earth . . . of course!

On the open field .

God Bless you

David

[1whowaits]

Mark, i appreciate your view, i am just responding to it, thinking about how this will play out as it does look like it may occur sooner rather than later. It is somewhat like looking at the grand canyon through a straw, you can see a little of it but you know there is more out there that you are not seeing.

Exit, hey if the cows do come home you may want to hang on to them, they could be worth alot of money if the price of food keeps going up!

And i have been thinking about your point regarding the 'open field'. It looks like Gog and his troops fall on the mountains and the open field of Israel, which could suggest that they fall over a large area. I believe Joel 2 is a parallel account of Gog-magog, an attack by the northern army with characteristics similar to those of Ezek 38-39. Joel 2 states that the destroyed army is pushed back 'with its front columns going into the eastern sea and those in the rear into the western sea.'

The eastern sea would appear to be the Dead sea while the western sea would appear to be the Mediterranean Sea, being 'pushed back' would suggest that the area they are pushed back to is likely where they started the attack. Which could point to at least some of Gog's troops coming from the Med and landing on the coast (US, Russia?), and for the front troops to end up around the dead sea they could come from the Med coast through the Valley of Megiddo to the Jordan plain and up through the eastern valley (the way of travelers to the eastern sea) to the doorstep of Jerusalem (your map is helpful in picturing this).

If Gog's troops passed through the valley of Meggido on the way to the area of the eastern sea, some might see Gog-Magog as armageddon.

But at armageddon the armies are not described as being pushed back, they are trampled like grapes by Jesus according to Joel 3, Isa 63. And Jesus is described as setting foot on the mount in Jerusalem in Zech 14, apparently where He starts the trampling, and then He is described as coming back from Bozrah with His garments already stained with the blood of the nations in Isa 63, the trampling ends somewhere in Jordan around Bozra.

Bozrah is much further east in Jordan and is not associated with the Dead Sea, the armies at armageddon would cover a much larger area stretching a significant distance into Jordan, while at Gog the armies fall on the mountains of Israel, and the open plain in Israel, and they have a burial place in Israel.

And at armageddon the arimes are 'dissolved', they rot where they stand, according tioi Zech 14, while at Gog they are buried in a mass grave in Israel.

There are details that appear to point to Gog-magog and armageddon being similar but separate events.

[Exit40]

Hi 1whowaits. I've been looking at a lot of maps lately, looking for the Valley of Meggido amongst other locations named in Scripture. Honestly, there is no place with this proper name, but it looks like it is actually the Valley of Jezreel. Tel Meggido is in the pass between this valley and the coastal plain of Acco, to the north of Haifa. There are routes from this valley to the Jordan Valley and south through the mountains to the southern coastal plains, and through the mountains to Jerusalem.

Looking at this from the perspective of these battles, Ps 83, Isa 17, Eze 38/9, and others, all being related and islamic, by that I mean they occur during the DOTL, I am coming to a few conclusions. First of all, gog comes as a storm to cover the land. Israel is not that big so a single large storm would easily cover the whole land, storm being a ravaging storm in this case, the land is pillaged by them. Israel will be covered by gog, the nations listed as thy bands, and many people with him, over the whole of the land. There is a military operation as well as a lot of other people, a horde even, and no doubt some living in Israel rising up also. Relating this to Zec 14 the where nations are gathered to fight against Jerusalem, the city is taken with accompanying ravages in vs 2. I am beginning to associate this with the trampling of the city by the gentiles for the 42 months of Rev 11:2. Half of the city is carried away captive with the residue not cut off. The latter bears the implication of an affluent people making a covenant of some sort, thereby remaining in the city. But there is a remnant there also who are abused greatly.

In Joel 3 we see again there are ravages to the people of Israel, parting of the land, and gathering of heathen to be judged in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, the Valley of Decision. How long does this go on ? Maybe for 42 months, maybe for a shorter period near the end of it. Here is a reference to a harvest of grapes, the press is full, and I believe it is here the Lord tramples them till the blood runs to the horses bridles. Obviously blood can't run to this depth over the whole land, plus this happens without the city in Rev 14:20 so it appears there is a correlation here. This is not Meggido, or the Valley of Jezreel. This is Jerusalem. It appears the Lord starts here, then moves on to trample at Bozrah, and desolates Egypt too, Joel 3:19. Bozrah is not so much a place, but an area. It is located along a route from Iraq and Persia that drops down from this open desert plain to the Dead Sea, a route continuing up to the areas of Jerusalem, in the mountains there. I haven't studied the Egypt connection yet, perhaps Isa 19 covers it.

Joel 2:20 describes a land barren and desolate where the northern army is driven. I believe this is in the east of the Jordan Valley and extending to other areas, large desert areas. The eastern sea is the Persian Gulf, the western sea, the Sea of Galilee. And I am relating this to Isa 17 where the harvestman reaps in the Valley of Rephaim, east side of the Jordan valley, west of the area of Bozrah to the southeast, and the cities of Aroer, Isa 17:2 to the northeast. Remember, the army and peoples that comes covers the land and some are driven back, they are a huge multi faceted column, escaping by a number of routes back to whence they came. Yes, some have their flesh rotted while they stand, but their bones remain to be sought out and buried in the Valley of Hamongog. Some are trampled out there, there stink and ill savour comes up. Others are made to flee the Lord's storm, and are as those who perished in a flash flood at the Brook of Kison, Ps 83:9, a correlating reference to Eze 38:22 where the Lord pleads with pestilence, Zec 14:12, the rotting, and blood, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone, with a correlating reference back to Ps 83:13-15, stubble before the wind, flame setteth the mountains on fire, persecuted by His tempest, all the way to Damascus, and beyond. Huge areas of devastation, including in Israel where He destroys those who have called themselves by His Name but are not, and so are in league with the invaders, betrayers. This is a huge force of people, many are killed in Israel, mountains and open fields, many are killed fleeing there, many are killed where they dwell, Damascus, Lebanon, isles, magog, other places. What a nightmare.

Taken is this context presented here, this could all happen in a sort period of time. I'm sure I haven't covered it all.

Maybe gog is not the antichrist, but a great military commander called to come to Israel by him, leading the many who come with him, in service to the antichrist. Hmmm. Whoever he is he must be some kind of beast/man to lead such a cruel people.

Lord have Mercy

God Bless You

David

[Seeker]

Hi Mark and David,

You are correct in your reading. The things written in Ezekiel 39 are found fulfilled elsewhere in scripture at the return of Jesus. We must use scripture to interpret scripture rather than logic and postulating. Theories and guesses are just that. The only certainty here is what lies in the scriptures. When we compare what is written in Eze 38-39 to other scriptures the picture is clear, it is the day God has spoken of. I know you two are aware of what I am about to write but for the benefit of others I will go into some detail here.

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

We must ask ourselves the obvious question here...What day has God spoken of? Well the day when His holy name is known in the midst of His people Israel. The day that Israel will not pollute God's holy name any longer. The day the heathen know that He is the Lord, Holy One in Israel. The only day I know of that God has spoken of that could fulfill all those conditions is the "day" of the Lord. If there is another day mentioned in the bible fulfilling "all" those statements together I would be eager to see it.

Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

The next question we must deal with is who did the prophets of old speak of. God says that He has spoken of Gog through His prophets of old in Israel. They prophesied that in many years God would bring Gog against the land of Israel. Simple enough all we need to do is check what the prophets of old had to say about an army attacking Israel in the latter years. All that we find concerning an army attacking Israel in the latter years is in direct reference to the day of the Lord. The ending of the Gog war is what pegs it as Armageddon.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Israel can only return to the Lord their God that day and forward "one" time. After the Gog war Israel knows God forever after.

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

At the same time as the gog invasion; God's fury comes up in His face and in the fire of His wrath He has spoken. The Gog defeat is part of God's wrath. There will be a great earthquake so that every single living creature on earth shakes at the "presence" of God. To shake at the presence of God means to shake while He is present or has returned to earth. Besides every creature, including all men, shaking at God's presence the mountains will be thrown down. Mountains can only be thrown down one time after that there are no more mountains to throw down.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

This is where we see the mountains gone in scripture, during the wrath of God. Beyond a doubt the Gog war ends at the end of the last 7 years when Jesus returns to earth and gathers Israel. The end of the Gog war is what we see in Rev 19 at Armageddon. Armageddon is simply the last battle of the Gog war.

Peace,
Seeker

[Stephen]

Hi Seeker,

You have made a lot of things clearer for me with this post.

Gog/Armaggedon and the timings of it all has been like a sort of hazy cloud in my understanding since I began my scriptural study a few years ago.

The end of the Gog war is what we see in Rev 19 at Armageddon. Armageddon is simply the last battle of the Gog war.

Makes sense to me. At last.

And I appreciate the way you have set it all out and explained it by reference to scripture.

God Bless,

Steve

[Seeker]

Hi Steve,

Makes sense to me. At last.

And I appreciate the way you have set it all out and explained it by reference to scripture.

Thanks I always try to keep what I say confined to what I can prove with scripture for the most part...lol...keeps the "me" out of my opinion...lol.

Blessings,
Seeker

[drdos]

Seeker Thank you for clearing this up for me as well... Also are you sure that the mountains can't fall twice! hahahaha Just kidding. Thanks

[mark s]

Just to be clear . . .

My understanding is that Gog/Magog invade and are destroyed at the beginning of the final 7 years. Then comes the 7 year clean-up. Then Ez. 39, after the clean-up, prophesies Armageddon.

This is the straightforward reading of the passage.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Ready1]

Isaiah give us a key to this part:

Isaiah 11:11 "And it shall be in that day, the Lord shall again set His hand, the second time, to recover the remnant of His people that remains"

The first was after the Babylonian captivity, the second when Jesus returns.

In verse 29 (Ezekiel again), "I have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel", this, at least to me, only makes sense after the great tribulation, then they are saying "blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the LORD", and when Zechariah also says that God "pour out upon the house of David" "a spirit of graces and prayers".

Do you see the following passage as a comparable passage to the ones that you have mentioned?

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[mark s]

Yes I do.

[Ready1]

We agree!

[mark s]

[Seeker]

Hi drdos,

Seeker Thank you for clearing this up for me as well... Also are you sure that the mountains can't fall twice! hahahaha

Not that I can figure...lol...seriously though what really pegs it is the presence of God and the great earthquake.

Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Every living creature shaking at the presence of God...

Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Looks very much like Ezekiel 38:19-20 to me. That sets the timing for the end of Ezekiel 38 which is during the wrath of God at the end of the last 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

My understanding is that Gog/Magog invade and are destroyed at the beginning of the final 7 years. Then comes the 7 year clean-up. Then Ez. 39, after the clean-up, prophesies Armageddon.

Eze 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

The problem I see with that view is that Gog is addressed in the beginning of both chapters. If Gog were destroyed in Ezekiel 38 how is it that God addresses him in Ezekiel 39? That is partially why I believe Eze 38 & 39 tell the same story just from different perspectives. The bible does this very often. Joel 1-3 is a good example of rehashing the same story from different perspectives to illustrate different aspects. Zephaniah is also a good example. The DOTL passages all address the same topic from different perspectives. Ezekiel 38 ends with the mountains being thrown down (Rev 16) and the presence of God on earth. That happens at the end of the last 7 years. In Ezekiel 39 Israel returns to God forever after. That happens at the end of the last 7 years also. Both events take place in the same timeframe making them the same set of events. They both describe the same battle series just different parts of it.

We know that the AC, who is Gog, only battles the saints for 3 1/2 years (Dan 7, Rev 13). That 3 1/2 years begins at the AOD which is around the middle of the last 7 years. So this gives us the timing for the Gog invasion. The events described in both Eze 38 & 39 can be shown to occur at the end of the last 7 years. The real key to the identity of Gog is when God tells us He spoke of Gog in the prophets of old. That really nails it down to the DOTL invasion or Armageddon as we know it. There is no one else spoken of invading Israel in the latter days. Search the scriptures if there is another person God could be speaking of I don't find it anywhere in the prophets. The only endtime invasion of Israel is around the DOTL. God directly addresses Gog, the person, in both chapters and both chapters contain events that can only occur at the end of the last 7 years. That ties it together for me at least.

Peace,
Seeker

[mark s]

The problem I see with that view is that Gog is addressed in the beginning of both chapters. If Gog were destroyed in Ezekiel 38 how is it that God addresses him in Ezekiel 39?

Hi Seeker,

I wrote:

If you take Ez. 39:9-16 as signifying an actual 7 year space between the preceding passage and the following passage, it all makes sense, and it's a straightforward plain reading of the text.

Personally, I think that though there are some similarities between events at the beginning and at the end of the 70th week, we need to take careful note of the differences also, and those things that are not said.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

I wrote:


If you take Ez. 39:9-16 as signifying an actual 7 year space between the preceding passage and the following passage, it all makes sense, and it's a straightforward plain reading of the text.

Oh sorry missed that, it takes different scripture to address. Here let me show you something in Ezekiel 39.

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

In your scenario God's holy name will be known in the midst of Israel, God will not let them pollute His name any longer. the heathen/nations know the Lord is God, the Holy One "IN" Israel. God is in Israel at this point. How can Gog attack Israel while God is in the midst of Israel?

Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

What day did God speak of 7 years before the end? God spoke of this day regarding Gog which would be at the beginning of the last 7 years. So the burden you have is to find where God spoke of your version of events. Is there any scripture that you can produce showing Gog attacking at the beginning of the last 7 years? I can pull out all kinds of scripture that shows the attack in Israel at the end of the last 7 years.

Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

Same birds and beast descriptions linking both 39:1-8 and 39:9-29 to the end of the last 7 years at the great sacrifice God prepares (Rev 19). Ezekiel 38 and 39 both speak of the same set of events just two versions of the same story.

Peace,
Seeker

[Exit40]

Hi Seeker.

What day did God speak of 7 years before the end?

Having a senior moment I guess, where is this spoken 7 years in advance ? Am I misunderstanding you here ?

God Bless You

David

[1whowaits]

Seeker, in this discussion it would appear that while the similarities between Gog and armageddon are noted, the very significant differences are being ignored. While 2 events can appear similar they are not necessarily the same, the differences would be the determining factor, if the differences cannot be reasonably reconciled then the 2 events are not the same.

I would like to go through the list of significant differences again- Gog is killed and buried in a mass grave while the AC is captured alive and cast into the lake of fire. If Gog-Magog and armageddon are the same battle then it would be a reasonable conclusion that Gog and the AC are one in the same. But a straightforward reading of the passages that describe the demise of the AC vs that of Gog would indicate that 2 different individuals are being discussed, one cannot be killed and buried and then captured alive and thrown into the lake of fire, or be captured alive and thrown into the lake of fire and then be killed and buried.

There is no reasonable explanation to reconcile these 2 completely different accounts of the demise of the AC and Gog. And as the accounts cannot be reconciled, the most reasonable conclusion is that Gog is not the AC.

Prior to Gog-magog Israel is seen as peaceful and unsuspecting and dwelling in the center of the land. Prior to armageddon during the GT, Israel, the woman, is pursued by Satan who wishes to destroy her and she is taken to a place in the wilderness. The 2 descriptions of Israel prior to the events are significantly different, making it likely that 2 different events are being described.

At armageddon scripture repeatedly (Zech 14, Joel 3, Rev 16, 19) describes 'all nations' gathering to Jerusalem/Israel, while at Gog a specific limited number of nations are listed, nothing close to all nations.


At Gog the motivation to attack Israel is to loot and plunder, while at armageddon all nations gather to make war against the rider on the horse, Jesus. At armageddon Jesus destroys the gathered armies with the sword of His mouth and He directly tramples on them, He destroys directly. At Gog God sends fire and plague and burning sulfur, the destruction is sent from God, He is not described as standing there giving it out as Jesus does in Rev 19.

At Gog the armies are killed and buried while at armageddon they 'rot where they stand' according to Zech 14, there is no indication of burial.

So considering just some of the significant differences between Gog-Magog and armageddon, while there may be some similarities between the 2 events, a straightforward reading of the differences would indicate that 2 different events are being described.

As far as some of the objections you raise, Gog does appear to be descibed elsewhere in Joel 2 and Isa 14 (are you not the one I spoke of in former days?). The destruction at Gog-Magog in Ezek 38 is prefaced by 'a great earthquake in the land of Israel' and ends with Gog falling on the mountains of Israel, suggesting that the mountains falling and cliffs crumbling refers to the event occuring in Israel, not the entire world.

The reference to people trembling in God's presence in Ezek 38 is also described in Nahum 1-'the mountains quake before him and the hills melt away. The earth trembles at his presence, the world and all who live in it....' Nahum 1 is describing God's judgement against Nineveh in the past, did the entire earth literally tremble at the destruction of Ninveh as it will at armageddon, was God's presence literally in the middle of Nineveh as it will be at armageddon? So as this did not happen at Nineveh (it was more figurative, the world trembles before God's power even without Him being directly present) as it will at armageddon, why would one assume that it will happen at Gog when the language and description is similar to Nahum 1 rather than Rev 19?

While the similarities between Gog-Magog and armageddon are there, the significant differences are much greater and cannot be reconciled, pointing to Gog-Magog and armageddon as being 2 different and separate eevnts.

[Exit40]

Hi 1whowaits.

While the similarities between Gog-Magog and armageddon are there, the significant differences are much greater and cannot be reconciled, pointing to Gog-Magog and armageddon as being 2 different and separate eevnts.

Actually, the only similarity I see regarding these two battles is the open field mention in Eze 39:5, and the follow up feast of the birds. Consider that gog's forces come to cover the land like a cloud. Would that be all of Israel or just selected parts ? Would the Plain of Acco and the Jezreel Valley, the place of Armageddon be part of that cloud of forces? The place of Armageddon is a small part of Israel, how many can be crammed in there compared to the cloud of gog forces on the land. And would it be an assumption to say just as soon as they arrive the destruction begins ? I think it would be as Israel needs to become captive again, some will flee, some will be killed, some will remain in Jerusalem captive, their agreement with their muslim neighbors broken, betrayed, their covenant with death disannuled. Israel is not living in peace unsuspecting. They are over confident in the security of their agreement with them. Money is changing hands, prosperity for all, bringing with it false security. Will gog not know it ? He certainly will, Israeli transgressors will be acting according to their agreement, blind to the deception of their own betrayal, that perpetuated on them by the one who calls to gog to come to spoil the land, and capture Jerusalem. Gog probably is not the muslim AC, but he is certainly a noteworthy individual, spoken of in Scripture by the Prophets. He is the epitome of all of Israel's enemies, over time, in our time a great muslim leader. I don't think we can get around that. So who is he then ? Not the AC, not the beast, not the FP, who's left that matters ? I'm getting some ideas, but will have to study on it.

Regarding battles, consider Rev 19:13 where the Lord appears on His horse from Heaven opened up. He already has blood on his vesture, His Kingly garment, that of the Highest Priest. Has Isa 63:1 already occurred then ? He doesn't kill everyone with His sword, but smites the nations, and rules with a rod of iron, and He treads the winepress. Covers a lot of ground, doesn't it. There are so many events happening in the last 3.5 years, I don't think we are addressing them properly with our gog/AC discussions. Think about this too. In Rev 16:13 the three frogs come from the dragon, the false prophet, and the beast, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. I don't think they know what they are in for or they wouldn't come. Honestly, who would come but the deceived ? I think they are actually the gog forces that cover the land, the spoilers and destroyers, the kings of the earth joined with them for their cut of the action, the spoil of Israel. Recall in Scripture in the OT people are asking of this people Israel, ' where is their God ? ' . That is precedence for the NT where they are scoffers, saying, ' where is the evidence of His coming ? '. Evidently they have heard of Him and what He has done in the distant past. But Israel is bereft of Him they believe. This wretched people are corrupted and deserted, and have no god so deserve what they are getting. No one will save them. Muslim hordes and cohorts can do what they want, they don't fear a God that won't come for these wretches, this loathsome people. They become drunk on blood and the sins of the horrible darkness at the heart of islam. Next verse, 15, behold He comes like a thief. Somebody is in for a surprise I think, the muslim spoilers, destroyers, the Israeli polluters and corrupters, converts to islam, the great whore and her daughters, many nations, many peoples, those in Israel and Jerusalem occupying HIS Land and HIS Holy Place, come to mind. The desolations determined must be accomplished, first, from the AOD til the end of it. Israel must suffer this, Lord have mercy on them. Then this, spoken of in other Scripture too....

Eze 39:21 ¶ And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I [am] the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 ¶ Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made [them] afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I [am] the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

What is left to accomplish ? Who can fool Israel now ? A false prophet and antichrist ? Really ? They are the Lord's captives, brought back into the land again, desolations, trespasses, and transgressions over for good, He won't hide His Face any more, His Spirit poured out on them, according to a plain reading of Scripture.

We're letting discrepancies distract us from the full weight of Scripture. imho

God Bless You

David

[Jay Ross]

hello

All of the discussion depends on when God is going to call all of Israel to return to the land of their fathers. It is my view that 1948 represented a secular return of Israel to the land of their fathers and that the decreed tribulation, desolation devastation and scattering of Israel to the four corners still has a number of years to run yet. From my research into this, I have formed the view that there is another 30-40 years to run yet before the Lord wrath against Israel will have run its full course and completed the decreed time.

I am also considering that the King of the North is the King over Gog and that Jeremiah 50-51 has a lot to say who that kings is and he does not beat around the Bush in describing him and the exploits of his kingdom.

I also agree that there will be over 1,000 years separating the events in the valley of Armageddon and the end time battle which has the kingdom of God playing a central role.

We are presently approaching interesting times and there will again be interesting times a little over 1,000 years into the future.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Stephen]

Hi Jay,

From my research into this, I have formed the view that there is another 30-40 years to run yet before the Lord wrath against Israel will have run its full course and completed the decreed time.

I have often wondered about this myself. Mainly just on the basis that ‘every generation thinks it is the last one!’ (Christian generations, that is.)

But then I keep coming up against the thought: “Could mankind really survive on this planet that much longer the way things are going?”

30 to 40 years would take us up to 2041 to 2051 AD, and I just can’t see how we could get through the decades alive! I mean the violence, warmongering and hatreds are brewing up to fever pitch, and, unlike Iraq under Saddam Hussein, the primary powers really do have weapons of mass destruction, and more and more people seem to be coming online to obtain them! Then there are the genetic, chemical, scalar, and goodness knows what else weaponry. And robotics and genetically engineered and ‘enhanced’ super-soldiers.

Then there are the planetary and solar changes that appear to be genuine, and we seem to be getting a foretaste of now.

The only way I could see us getting through three or four more decades is not a way any of us would want, I don’t think. I.e., a one world, collectivist, global police state, in which everyone is monitored and controlled minutely. In other words, a world in which all ‘humanity’ had ended. So what would there be for Our Lord to return for? Mind-controlled, de-humanised, ‘units of production’?

Just some thoughts, Jay.

I really don’t know.

I pray the end will come soon.

God Bless,

Steve

[1whowaits]

Exit, there are many assumptions made about what Ezek 39 describes about the state of Israel after Gog, but what does the scripture really say? Israel will know that God is the Lord, Israel knew that through most of the OT, did they rebel, did they forget God at times?

In Ezek the nations know that God is in Israel, was not the Shekinah glory in Israel during part of the OT? Did Israel fall away during that time? Does the presence, the Shekinah glory, mean that the Messiah lived in Israel during the OT as He will during the millenium after armageddon?

Ezek states that Israel will no longer profane God's name, which Ezek 36 indicates is a reference to Israel being sent into exile by God and the nations mocking God, and yet some interpret this to mean Israel will not fall away or be deceived, which is not what the scripture states.

God pours out His Spirit in Ezek 39, which some interpret as Israel coming to Christ, but God put His Spirit on the 70 elders in Numbers 11 and they prophecied, even those who disobeyed, which would suggest that the Spirit being put on individuals does not necessarily mean they accept Christ or that they are not disobedient.

I don't believe one can definitively make the case that the acceptance by Israel of Christ as Messiah and King that occurs at armageddon as described in Zech 12 is the same event being described in Ezek 39, the scripture in Ezek does not really describe that scenario although there are some similarities. So as there are some similarities between Gog and armageddon, it would be the differences that would make the case as to whether the same event is being described or not, and the differences are significant.

[Exit40]

Exit, there are many assumptions made about what Ezek 39 describes about the state of Israel after Gog, but what does the scripture really say? Israel will know that God is the Lord, Israel knew that through most of the OT, did they rebel, did they forget God at times?

What does Scripture really say ? Well, that's what we're trying to figure out, isn't it ? And yeah, they are a stiff necked people who rebelled against God, many times, and God punished them for breaking His Law.

In Ezek the nations know that God is in Israel, was not the Shekinah glory in Israel during part of the OT? Did Israel fall away during that time? Does the presence, the Shekinah glory, mean that the Messiah lived in Israel during the OT as He will during the millenium after armageddon?

Only the High Priest was able to enter the Holy of Holies to see this resting on the Ark of the Covenant. And the Jews were still a stiff necked people, as a whole, not having even seen it. And where is the Ark after the Babylonian invasion ? No mention of it being on planet earth again. For the rest, your kidding right ?

Ezek states that Israel will no longer profane God's name, which Ezek 36 indicates is a reference to Israel being sent into exile by God and the nations mocking God, and yet some interpret this to mean Israel will not fall away or be deceived, which is not what the scripture states.

Eze 39:7 states He will not let them pollute His Holy name any more. Sounds more like they don't have a choice, but that is not the exact meaning either. Seems this is a more accurate representation...

Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

This appears to be in the millenium. His Spirit is in them, they are cleansed by God, no more filthiness or idols, given a heart of flesh, ALL the house of Israel, yet somehow they fall away after that ? I'm gonna give God a bit more credit here than you are.

God pours out His Spirit in Ezek 39, which some interpret as Israel coming to Christ, but God put His Spirit on the 70 elders in Numbers 11 and they prophecied, even those who disobeyed, which would suggest that the Spirit being put on individuals does not necessarily mean they accept Christ or that they are not disobedient.

Numbers 11 is a poor representation for what we are talking about here. Except for there is no mention of any of the Seventy, or the two, who had His Spirit placed on them disobeying. There were complainers among the people because they had only manna to eat, so the Lord filled them with meat til it came out their noses. Then he killed them with a plague. No Spirit on those folks I would guess.

I don't believe one can definitively make the case that the acceptance by Israel of Christ as Messiah and King that occurs at armageddon as described in Zech 12 is the same event being described in Ezek 39, the scripture in Ezek does not really describe that scenario although there are some similarities. So as there are some similarities between Gog and armageddon, it would be the differences that would make the case as to whether the same event is being described or not, and the differences are significant.

I don't believe one can make a definitive case that they don't.

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken.

My emphasis. Nowhere else in Scripture is that first bolded phrase spoken. Second bolded, the Heathen will know He is the Lord, the Holy One IN Israel. Israel knows it, heathen know it, the Lord is in Israel and has just wiped up the whole land of Israel of magog invaders who covered it like a cloud, Valley of Jezreel included, Jerusalem is in the mountains of Israel by the way, everybody seems to know it, yet He doesn't specifically pour out His Spirit in Eze 39 with the other qaulifiers, although multiple other Scripture that points to the many, many similarities of this day of which He has spoken being the great day He mops up land and He pours out His Spirit on His people Israel. The phrase ' it is done ' is found four times in Scripture, three related to end times, as in final. Armageddon is the final battle of the magog invasion, in the Valley of Jezreel, a small part of the land of Israel, as I see it.

I am coming to a different understanding of gog, how he is the Assyrian, the one spoken of... Still studying.

God Bless You

David

[Douggg]

I don't believe one can definitively make the case that the acceptance by Israel of Christ as Messiah and King that occurs at armageddon as described in Zech 12 is the same event being described in Ezek 39, the scripture in Ezek does not really describe that scenario although there are some similarities. So as there are some similarities between Gog and armageddon, it would be the differences that would make the case as to whether the same event is being described or not, and the differences are significant.

Hi 1ww, imo, it depends on what part of Ezekiel 39 one is talking about.

1. Ezekiel 39:1-8 pretrib destruction of Gog/Magog. Ezekiel 39:4 feast on Gog's army.
2. Ezekiel 39:9-16 aftermath of Gog/Magog.
3. 7 years following Gog/Magog is the seven years of the Antichrist.
4. Ezekiel 39:17-21 feast at Armageddon.
5. Ezekiel 39:21-29 retrospect after Jesus has returned.

The two feasts in Ezekiel 39 are bookends for the 7 years of the Antichrist.

Ezekiel 39:1-16 - 7year gap - 17-29
Daniel 11:1-35 - 2400 year gap - 36-45
Revelation 12:1-5 - 2000 year gap - 6-17
Daniel 9:26 - 2000 year gap - 27

The Jews have to accept Jesus before He returns. imo, the Jews accept Jesus as their messiah during the second half of the seven years, commencing with the Antichrist man going into the temple and declaring himself to be god sometime just before the mid-point of the seven years.

Doug L.

[Exit40]

I don't believe one can definitively make the case that the acceptance by Israel of Christ as Messiah and King that occurs at armageddon as described in Zech 12 is the same event being described in Ezek 39, the scripture in Ezek does not really describe that scenario although there are some similarities. So as there are some similarities between Gog and armageddon, it would be the differences that would make the case as to whether the same event is being described or not, and the differences are significant.

Hi 1ww, imo, it depends on what part of Ezekiel 39 one is talking about.

1. Ezekiel 39:1-8 pretrib destruction of Gog/Magog. Ezekiel 39:4 feast on Gog's army.
2. Ezekiel 39:9-16 aftermath of Gog/Magog.
3. 7 years following Gog/Magog is the seven years of the Antichrist.
4. Ezekiel 39:17-21 feast at Armageddon.
5. Ezekiel 39:21-29 retrospect after Jesus has returned.

The two feasts in Ezekiel 39 are bookends for the 7 years of the Antichrist.

Ezekiel 39:1-16 - 7year gap - 17-29
Daniel 11:1-35 - 2400 year gap - 36-45
Revelation 12:1-5 - 2000 year gap - 6-17
Daniel 9:26 - 2000 year gap - 27

The Jews have to accept Jesus before He returns. imo, the Jews accept Jesus as their messiah during the second half of the seven years, commencing with the Antichrist man going into the temple and declaring himself to be god sometime just before the mid-point of the seven years.

Doug L.

Hi Doug. Except Eze 39:4 and :17 both say the feast is on the mountains of Israel, for the ravenous birds and the beasts of the field. Armageddon is in the Valley of Jezreel. Field....

Strong's H7704 - sadeh
שָׂדֶה
sadeh
From an unused root meaning to spread out
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) field, land
a) cultivated field
b) of home of wild beasts
c) plain (opposed to mountain)
d) land (opposed to sea)

Additionally, vs 4 states they SHALL fall, the tense is that the object spoken of, fall, is not completed, but will be in the future. Vs 17 says, assemble, come, the tense of which is active, as in eat now. Same feast described from vs 4 what is going to happen to vs 17 it's happening now, as I see it. I know, one of them little details.

Another detail. Israel burns weapons for 7 years. Presumably then they are doing this also while the AC and gentiles are trampling them in the second half of the week, in the midst of all that activity right up to Armageddon. Where is the Scriptural support for that ?

God Bless You

David

[1whowaits]

Exit, again the details tell the story, where does it say that Israel will burn the weapons for 7 years? 'Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up...' Does the passage say "Israel' burns the weapons or those who live in the towns of Israel? Who lived in the towns of Israel prior to 1948? Who will live in the towns of Israel after Israel is taken into the wilderness during the GT? While we may not know who lives in the towns of Israel after Israel goes into the wilderness we do know it will not be Israel. Details tell the story, if the weapons were burned at any other time that did not include the GT there would be no need for the phrase 'those who live in the towns of Israel', the specific phrase of Israel burning the weapons would do.

[mark s]

Interesting thing . . .

When the Israelis bury the dead, well, if they go just a little further, they'd be coming up on Petra, a common favorite for where they will flee to.

Perhaps some of the newly believing Jews, while they are burying the dead, will be smuggling supplies into Petra, or wherever it will be that they will flee to.

Then, those who live in the towns will go out, and burn the weapons for fuel . . .

Just thinkin' . . .

[Douggg]

Hi Doug. Except Eze 39:4 and :17 both say the feast is on the mountains of Israel, for the ravenous birds and the beasts of the field. Armageddon is in the Valley of Jezreel. Field....

Strong's H7704 - sadeh
שָׂדֶה
sadeh
From an unused root meaning to spread out
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) field, land
a) cultivated field
b) of home of wild beasts
c) plain (opposed to mountain)
d) land (opposed to sea)

Additionally, vs 4 states they SHALL fall, the tense is that the object spoken of, fall, is not completed, but will be in the future. Vs 17 says, assemble, come, the tense of which is active, as in eat now. Same feast described from vs 4 what is going to happen to vs 17 it's happening now, as I see it. I know, one of them little details.

Another detail. Israel burns weapons for 7 years. Presumably then they are doing this also while the AC and gentiles are trampling them in the second half of the week, in the midst of all that activity right up to Armageddon. Where is the Scriptural support for that ?

God Bless You

David

Hi David, upon the mountains, upon the open field, and in the far away lands.

4Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

6And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

7 years later (imo), Armageddon is the "gathering" place, not that the battle is restricted to that location. Jerusalem will be the focal point, because that is where Jesus returns to - the Mt. of Olives.

Revelation 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

For the second half of the 7 years, the Jews who is escape to the wilderness will scavenge the remains of Gog/Magog's armies littering the landscape for MRE's (meals ready to eat) and diesel fuel. The bible doesn't say specifically (then again maybe it does according to the judgments) what keeps the Antichrist beast from going into the wilderness to pursue them (It does say in Revelation 12 that the earth helped the woman by swallowing up the flood from Satan). Perhaps that information was contained in the seven thunders that John was told not to write down.

Doug L.

[1whowaits]

Mark, i am wondering why Israel goes to such trouble to bury the dead after Gog, have they done such a thing after the past several battles? If there are bones lying out in the desert somewhere who cares? They are no threat to anyone even if chemical or nuclear weapons are used, the ground would be more contaminated than the bodies, they would bury the contaminated soil, the bones and bodies would be of secondary significance.

Unless of course the land had to be 'cleansed' for some reason. In the OT touching a dead body would result in defilement, it would follow that if the land had multiple dead bodies lying around it too would be defiled. Israel in her present state could care less about the OT rules of cleansing and defilement, the cleansing of the land would not be a priority, unless someone wanted to clease the land in preparation for a Temple. Sounds like Gog-Magog preceeds the rebuilding of the Temple- 'For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land....'.

Also for 7 months it is the 'House of Israel' who buries, but when the full 7 years are referred to it is 'those who live in the towns of Israel....' who burn the weapons. Sounds like the House of Israel is around at the beginning of the 7 years but isn't around for the full 7 years, which could fit with the condition of Israel during the 70th week, Israel in the land for the first half, in the wilderness for the second half.

[mark s]

Also for 7 months it is the 'House of Israel' who buries, but when the full 7 years are referred to it is 'those who live in the towns of Israel....' who burn the weapons. Sounds like the House of Israel is around at the beginning of the 7 years but isn't around for the full 7 years, which could fit with the condition of Israel during the 70th week, Israel in the land for the first half, in the wilderness for the second half.

That fits my understanding, with Gog/Magog at the beginning of the 70th week, followed by this 7 years of burning.

And I do happen to think that this destruction of the militarized Muslim nations will inspire Israel to rebuild the temple, so we seem to be in agreement here.

How did that happen? Is there something I'm not understanding?



Love in Christ,
Mark

[1whowaits]

Mark, i thought we always agreed on everything.....or was it disagreed.....i don't remember.....whatever.....what board is this again?

[mark s]

Dear friend, it has been my fond experience to have oppositely agreed upon everything different that we have similarly not concluded!

[1whowaits]

Yeah! What you said! (does anybody know what he said?)

And now for the Gog-Magog tweek of the week- Joel 2 describes an attack on Israel by a northern army after which God pours out His Spirit which could be consistent with Gog-Magog. Joel 2 appears to associate this event with the time of the Day of Atonement, the only appointed feast that is also a fast.

In Rev 8 the first trumpet appears to parallel the judgement poured out at Gog-Magog, which if a supposed interpretation of Joel 2 were correct, would occur around the time of the Day of Atonement. The 2nd trumpet, which follows the 1st, appears to describe an asteroid or comet strike on an ocean followed by destruction on the land. (fire on Magog and the coastlands?)

This year (2011) the Day of Atonement falls on 10/8 and it appears that the earth may have a close encounter with Comet Elenin sometime later in Oct....the info on how close is still developing.....interesting perhaps considering the events in the ME. If such a scenario were to occur the nations might experience what Ezek 39 describes- 'and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay upon them...'

[Seeker]

Hi David,

Having a senior moment I guess, where is this spoken 7 years in advance ? Am I misunderstanding you here ?

My statement was taking the view that Mark was proposing. His point was that Eze 39:9-16 was a seven year span between 39:8 and 39:17.

Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

That would make the events of Eze 39:8 and Eze 39:17 seven years apart. Since 39:17 is at the end of the last 7 years the day God spoke of would have to be at the beginning of the last 7 years. My challenge to Mark was to find that day in scripture shown at the beginning of the 70th week. I can find that day at the end of the 70th week in scripture. The next point I made was to point out that the same birds/beast sacrifice/feast was shown before and after the supposed 7 year span in the middle of Eze 39 making it likely they both speak of the same event since they are in the same chapter. I have yet to see witness scripture showing the events in Ezekiel 39 to occur at the beginning of the last 7 years while there is abundant scripture showing these events in the timeframe of the end of the last 7 years. That was my point anyway if that helps any.

Peace,
Seeker

[mark s]

My challenge to Mark was to find that day in scripture shown at the beginning of the 70th week. I can find that day at the end of the 70th week in scripture.

Hi Seeker,

This is intertwined with how you understand the Day of YHWH. Are we thinking a 24 hour day here? What does II Peter 3 tell us about the Day of YHWH, particularly concerning it's time frame?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Seeker]

Hi 1whowaits,

And now for the Gog-Magog tweek of the week- Joel 2 describes an attack on Israel by a northern army after which God pours out His Spirit which could be consistent with Gog-Magog. Joel 2 appears to associate this event with the time of the Day of Atonement, the only appointed feast that is also a fast.

Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

You are correct here Joel 2 is the Gog-Magog war. It is also the DOTL.

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Here we see the cosmic signs which we also see in Isaiah 13, Matthew 24, Rev 6, & Joel 3.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

The sun/moon/stars darkened connect Joel 2 to Matthew 24 and the return of Jesus. It also occurs before the DOTL just like it occurs before Jesus returns. Jesus roars out of Zion and utters His voice from Jerusalem after the cosmic signs occur.

In Rev 8 the first trumpet appears to parallel the judgement poured out at Gog-Magog,

In what ways can you show me the scriptures you are comparing or expound further on this?

This year (2011) the Day of Atonement falls on 10/8 and it appears that the earth may have a close encounter with Comet Elenin sometime later in Oct....the info on how close is still developing.....interesting perhaps considering the events in the ME. If such a scenario were to occur the nations might experience what Ezek 39 describes- 'and all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay upon them...

Eze 39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
Eze 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Eze 39:9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
Eze 39:10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
Eze 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
Eze 39:13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
Eze 39:15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.
Eze 39:16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.
Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

The punishment God lays upon them is when they invade Israel and God defeats the armies gathered in Israel. No mention of an asteriod or anything. The nations see God utterly defeat Gog and know He is the Lord after that. All the heathen know He is God and Israel will know that God is their Lord from that day forward forever. The reason they do is because they witnessed God defeat Gog in the land of Israel. At the end of the Gog Magog war there will be no doubt in Israel and the nations as to who and what God is.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

After the Gog war God has poured His spirit out upon Israel and they have returned to their land from their enemies lands. This only happens during the millennium. The timing of the Gog war has to coincide with the time when Israel returns to dwell safely in their land. The only place that can be shown scripturally is during the millennium. The end of the Gog war is Armageddon with Israel returning to the Lord following that battle.

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

The things written in Ezekiel 39 can only be shown to occur near the millennium in scripture. Everywhere we see Israel gathered in their land safely it is near the millennium. Everywhere we see Israel returning to the Lord we also see the end of the last 7 years. The events in Ezekiel 39 as a group can only occur at the end of the last 7 years. No other place in scripture contains all of the events Ezekiel 38-39.

Peace,
Seeker

[mark s]

Joe 2:1-11
(1) Blow a ram's horn in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble. For the day of YHWH comes, for it is near at hand;
(2) a day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread on the mountains; a great people and a strong people; there has not been ever the like, nor shall there ever be again, even to the years of many generations.
(3) A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns. The land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness. Yes, and nothing shall escape them.
(4) As the appearance of horses is its appearance; and as war horses, so they run.
(5) They shall leap like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains, like the noise of a flame of fire that devours the stubble, like a strong people set in battle order.
(6) Before their face the people shall be much pained; all faces shall gather blackness.
(7) They shall run like mighty ones. They shall climb the wall like men of war, and they shall march each one on his way, and they shall not break their ranks.
(8) And each one shall not press his brother; they each go in his paths. And if they fall behind their weapons, they shall not be cut off.
(9) They shall rush on the city; they shall run on the wall; they shall climb up on the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
(10) The earth shall tremble before them; the heavens shall shake. The sun and the moon shall grow dark, and the stars shall gather in their light.
(11) And YHWH shall utter His voice before His army; for His camp is very great; for strong is He who does His Word. For the day of YHWH is great and very terrible; and who can stand it?

So you guys think this is the Gog/Magog army?

Is this the same thing:

Joel 2:20 But I will remove the northern army far from you, and will drive him into a barren and deserted land, with his face toward the eastern sea and his rear toward the western sea. And his stench shall come up, and his ill odor shall come up, because he was doing great things.

Ezekiel 38:21-22
(21) And I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains, says the Lord Jehovah. Each man's sword shall be against his brother.
(22) And I will judge him with a plague and with blood. And I will rain on him, and on his bands, and on the many peoples with him, an overflowing shower, and great hailstones, fire and brimstone.

Isn't Gog/Magog nations to the north, east, south, and west of Israel?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

Seeker wrote:
My challenge to Mark was to find that day in scripture shown at the beginning of the 70th week. I can find that day at the end of the 70th week in scripture.

This is intertwined with how you understand the Day of YHWH. Are we thinking a 24 hour day here? What does II Peter 3 tell us about the Day of YHWH, particularly concerning it's time frame?

Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

I favor the day Gog invades because of Ezekiel 38.

Eze 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
Eze 38:15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

In "that" day when they dwell safely will you not know it Gog? God said He spoke of Gog with the prophets of old from Israel. He spoke of Gog and the invasion Gog would launch. That is a very specific day referenced because an invasion occurs on it and God spoke of it with the prophets of old.

Eze 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

The day God has spoken of is when they fall upon the open field, when He sends fire on Magog, when He doesn't let Israel pollute His name any longer, when His holy name is known in the midst of Israel, when the heathen know He is God the Holy One "IN" Israel. Behold it is done the day He spoke of. The day He spoke of was the day He defeated Gog in the land of Israel. So yes this day I am looking for is a specific day when all the above occurs.

Peace,
Seeker

[mark s]

Hi Seeker,

What do you think about what Peter said concerning this coming "Day"? What sort of time-frame would accommodate that?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Seeker]

Hi Mark,

What do you think about what Peter said concerning this coming "Day"? What sort of time-frame would accommodate that?

Are you saying Peter is talking about Gog? The day I speak of is the day that Gog is defeated in Israel.

Eze 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

The actual invasion happens on a day when the armies of Turkey/Iran/Libya and others invade Israel. Gog is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (ancient Turkey). When they are defeated in verses 39:5-7 it is done, the day God spoke of. The invasion/defeat is the day God has spoken of by His prophets of old of Israel. Gog and his invasion were spoken of by the prophets of old.

Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

The fact that Gog invades Israel in the latter days is what was spoken of by the prophets of old in Israel. The day that invasion is defeated by the Lord is the day God spoke of. So what we are looking for is an invasion of Israel in the latter days with which God is sanctified by the defeat of Gog and Israel returns to the Lord forever after. That is what is written in Ezekiel 39. The only time that all of these conditions could be fulfilled is near the DOTL/millennium as I was saying above. If you can show scripture that shows all those conditions being met at the beginning of the last 7 years I would like to see them. Does that help explain it better?

Peace,
Seeker

[mark s]

Hi Mark,

What do you think about what Peter said concerning this coming "Day"? What sort of time-frame would accommodate that?

Are you saying Peter is talking about Gog?

Hi Seeker,

No, Peter is talking about the Day of YHWH. Is that not the Day of which He had spoken?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[1whowaits]

Mark, I would agree with Seeker that Joel 2 is most likely describing Gog-Magog. The main force in Ezek does appear to be the forces from the north, Gog and Magog, and from nations in the ME, not the entire world. Joel 2 focuses on the army from the north and does not say anything about the all nations of the world being involved in the battle except to say that the nations are in fear of them, which would not be consistent with armageddon which does involve all nations.

The army of Joel 2 being large and mighty and unlike anything in the past or future could be consistent with Gog-magog occuring at the beginning of the 70th week, the current armies are likely the strongest they will ever be. After Gog and during the 70th week there will be many wars, economic collapse, famine and death which would likely degrade the capabilities of armed forces as they would never have a chance to recover or rebuild, they actually may be riding horses by the time of armageddon, a 19th century type army would be inferior to a 21st century army.

In Joel 2 the army is pushed back and gives up a stench, which would imply that the army is human and is killed (not angels who likely don't stink). At armageddon the armies are killed where they stand and they rot where they stand, according to Zech 14. In Ezek the armies are killed and the buried in a place east towards the dead sea, which is not mentioned at armageddon, but Joel 2 does reference the front columns being pushed back towards the eastern sea, the dead sea, where they likely fall.

And after Gog-Magog in Ezek God pours out His Spirit, which He does in Joel 2 and at armageddon in Zech 12. But in Zech 12 the Spirit poured out is one of grace and supplication and involves the repentance by 'clans', which would appear to suggest that the entire nation repents and accepts Christ. In Joel 2 the Spirit is poured out on individuals, on men and women, old and young, and does not appear to describe a national repsonse as Zech 12 does. And although there does appear to be repentance of Israel in Ezek and Joel 2, there is no mention or reference to Jesus as there is in Zech 14 and Rev 19, the One who was pierced that rides the horse is present.

In summary, the reference to the northern army, the repentance of Israel, the pouring out of the spirit, God destroying the army that has a stench and appears to have been killed, that appears to fall toward the eastern sea, would appear to associate the battle in Joel 2 with Gog-magog.

And Joel appears to separate the battle in Joel 2 from that in Joel 3 by stating 'and afterward' and 'before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord' after the Joel 2 battle and before describing the attack by 'all nations', armageddon, in Joel 3.

Actually it may be possible that Joel gives an overview of the major battles of the time of the end- the attack on Israel at the destrcution of Damascus/Ps 83 battle in Joel 1, Gog-Magog in Joel 2, armageddon in Joel 3.

[1whowaits]

Seeker, it appears that you are assuming that scripture can only be describing 1 endtime battle as there are some similarities in the description. Is there or has there been only 1 day in which the term DOTL has been used? Is there or has there been only 1 day in which the scripture describes the sun and moon being darkened? Is there or has there been only 1 day in which God pours out His judgement and His presence has been described?

Ezek 30 states 'For the day is near, the day of the Lord is near...' in the description of the past destruction of Egypt, the scripture describes an event in the past as a 'day of the Lord'. As that was not the day of Christ's return or armageddon, the term DOTL can be used to describe an event other than armageddon, which the scripture does several times in the OT, there is more than 1 day called the 'day of the Lord'.

Ezek 32 describes the sun and moon being darkened, the signs of the DOTL, at the past destruction of Egypt- 'I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light..' There is more than 1 day in scripture in which the signs of the DOTL occur.

Nahum 1 describes the mountains and earth quakeing before the presence of the Lord in reference to the destruction of Ninveh in the past- 'The mountains quake before him and the hills melt away. The earth trembles at his presence and all who live in it..' The scripture describes more than 1 day in which the earth trembles before the 'presence' of the Lord.

So as scripture describes more than 1 day in which there is God's presence at judgement, more than 1 day in which the sun and moon are darkeened, more than 1 day called the DOTL, how do we know that there will not be more than 1 such day in the future?

You note the similarities beteen Gog-magog and armageddon, but many of these same similarities are also noted in scripture in association with the destruction of Egypt in the past (Ezek 30, 32), the destruction of Nineveh in the past (Nahum 1), the destruction of Babylon in the past (Isa 13), focusing on only the similarities would not appear to be very helpful in determining which day is being discussed in scripture, many are described as a DOTL.

It would be the differences between events noted in scripture that would determine if more than 1 event is being described. And as there are multiple differences between Gog-magog and armageddon, the logical conclusion would be that 2 differennt events are being discussed.

[Jericho]

There are similarities with the battle of Gog\Magog and Armageddon but, as others have pointed out, the differences should not be ignored either. Without going into all the differences I'll just post this link (sorry for the long url).

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:glPmO7DEh8QJ:www.thesilenceisbroken.us/Prophecy%2520Articles/Gog,%2520Antichrist,%2520Armageddon,%2520and%2520the%2520Presence%2520of%2520God_article.doc+armageddon+magog+differences&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

The biggest problem with Magog happening anytime in the last 3-1/2 years is Israel has to be at peace, but that period is the most tumultuous time for Israel and the rest of the world. I can't see how to get around that fact.

[Seeker]

Hi 1whowaits,

It would be the differences between events noted in scripture that would determine if more than 1 event is being described. And as there are multiple differences between Gog-magog and armageddon, the logical conclusion would be that 2 differennt events are being discussed.

Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

As I have been explaining to Mark there are a list of things that happen after the Gog war ends that are only found as a group near the DOTL and millennium. One of those items is that Israel is gathered out of their enemies' lands (Eze 39:27). This is where we see that in scripture.

Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Isa 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
Isa 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

The gathering of Israel to Israel from its' enemies lands occurs during the millennium in scripture.

Eze 20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
Eze 20:42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
Eze 20:43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
Eze 20:44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

We see the gathering here in Eze 20 as well. God is sanctified before the heathen just as in Eze 39.

Eze 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
Eze 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Eze 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
Eze 34:14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and in a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
Eze 34:15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

Eze 34:22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
Eze 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Eze 34:24 And I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the LORD have spoken it.
Eze 34:25 And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods.
Eze 34:26 And I will make them and the places round about my hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season; there shall be showers of blessing.
Eze 34:27 And the tree of the field shall yield her fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase, and they shall be safe in their land, and shall know that I am the LORD, when I have broken the bands of their yoke, and delivered them out of the hand of those that served themselves of them.
Eze 34:28 And they shall no more be a prey to the heathen, neither shall the beast of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and none shall make them afraid.
Eze 34:29 And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.
Eze 34:30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD.

Here again when God gathers Israel it is forever just as in Ezekiel 39. The gathering out of the enemies lands only occurs at the end near the millennium.

Eze 36:23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Eze 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.


Almost identical to the language in Ezekiel 39. The gathering is always associated with the return to the Lord.

Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Zep 3:14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.
Zep 3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.
Zep 3:16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.
Zep 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.
Zep 3:18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.
Zep 3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.
Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.


See there is a common theme regarding the gathering of Israel back to their land. Ezekiel 39 is the same story we see in the earlier chapters of Ezekiel quoted above. God can only regather Israel to Himself forever one time. It happens at the end of the Gog war which Ezekiel 34,36,37, & 39 all show to occur at the beginning of the millennium or end of the last 7 years. The regathering happens when Israel returns to the Lord forever. We have the same type of thing with the pouring out of the spirit upon Israel in Eze 39:29. This is where that happens in scripture. First in the above example Eze 36:27 and also in these scriptures.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

The pouring out of the spirit upon Israel is an event that occurs at the return of Christ as shown in Zec 12 and Joel 2. That timestamps the pouring out of the spirit in Eze 39 to the time Jesus returns. The gathering and pouring out of the spirit only occur at the end of the last 7 years in scripture. At the end of the Gog war Israel returns to her land, returns to the Lord forever, and God no longer hides His face from them any longer. The events at the end of Ezekiel 39 are only shown in scripture as occuring at the beginning of the millennium so we know that the Gog war ends at the end of the last 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi SwordofGideon,

The biggest problem with Magog happening anytime in the last 3-1/2 years is Israel has to be at peace, but that period is the most tumultuous time for Israel and the rest of the world. I can't see how to get around that fact.

If Gog were the AC Israel is no longer at peace starting at the AOD when the AC/Gog attacks. How could Israel build a temple and have animal sacrifices if there wasn't peace? How could the AC sit in the temple? No way a temple could be built today a jihad would break out instantly. Some sort of arrangement would have to be made by the muslims to allow the temple to be built. What if let's say a democratic middle eastern country were to propose a covenant (compact/confederacy/league) among many of Israel's enemies. That confederacy of Islamic nations would be led by Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (modern Turkey). Turkey is currently being considered as a democratic Islamic state that other muslim nations should use as a model. With the crisis in the middle east raging Turkey (Gog) would lead the other muslim nations into democracy under their leadership.

Later they would form into an 11 nation group confirming a covenant among themselves kicking off the last 7 years. That covenant could allow for Israel to rebuild her temple. In the middle of the last 7 years the AC attacks ending the false peace set up to take Israel by surprise. A very possible scenario even more so since the middle east has began to reshape itself with many suggesting they do so under the Turkish model (Gog chief prince of Meshech/Tubal). What a perfect set-up for the middle east to unite under the New Ottoman Turkey in the leadership just as Ezekiel 38-39 shows Gog as the leader of the invasion. One of the side kicks is Iran and look how cozy Turkey and Iran are these days fitting perfectly again with scripture. Add to that the fact that every nation specifically mentioned by name as an enemy of Israel is muslim today. The middle eastern AC scenario actually matches what we see in the world. Who are the enemies of Israel today? Not hard to figure out just check who has been trying to drive them into the sea since 1948. The enemies of Israel in the world today are the same enemies the bible names by their proper names thousands of years ago. Coincidence I think not...

Peace,
Seeker

[1whowaits]

Seeker, Israel is being regathered to her land now, there has been a regathering going on since 1948. Israel will be taken into the wilderness after the middle of the 70th week during the GT for 1,260 days and those in Jerusalem will be taken into captivity by the nations as Zech 14 describes, after the current regathering Israel will again leave the land. Israel will then again be regathered after armageddon during the millenium.

Do you believe that the current regathering of Israel is not of God? As it is clearly of God then what is currently going on is one of the regatherings of Israel by God. As armageddon has not yet occurred this is not the regathering of the millenium, it is a different regathering.

Isa 11 states that God will regather Israel twice, from multiple and widely dispersed nations- 'The Lord will reach out his hand a second time and reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.'

After the Babylonian exile Israel was regathered from Babylon and Elam, part of Medo-Persia, but she was not gathered from Assyria (no longer existed) or Cush or Egypt or the islands of the sea. Therefore Isa 11 is not referring to the regathering after the Babylonian exile, but another regathering, the first regathering from multiple nations, which would be the current regathering.

And the current regathering must be completed before the middle of the 70th week, before the time Israel is taken into the wilderness. And it would appear that the current regathering will be completed after an event prior to the middle of the week, and that event would appear to be Gog-Magog.

[1whowaits]

Seeker, i think the point Sword is making is that Israel cannot be at peace after the AOD and up until the time of armageddon at the end of the week, Israel cannot be peaceful and unsuspecting during the entire 3.5 years of the GT. And yet Ezek states that Israel will be peaceful and unsuspecting prior to Gog-Magog suggesting that Gog-magog is not armageddon.

If Gog is the AC and the Gog-Magog battle is armageddon, then Israel will be peaceful and unsuspecting and dwelling in the center of the land through the GT up until the time of armageddon at the end of the week, which would be a contradiction to scripture as Israel is not at peace or dwelling in the center of the land prior to armageddon.

How does your view explain this?

[mark s]

Mark, I would agree with Seeker that Joel 2 is most likely describing Gog-Magog. The main force in Ezek does appear to be the forces from the north, Gog and Magog, and from nations in the ME, not the entire world. Joel 2 focuses on the army from the north and does not say anything about the all nations of the world being involved in the battle except to say that the nations are in fear of them, which would not be consistent with armageddon which does involve all nations.

Hi 1whowaits,

I'm not dogmatic about this, it's only my guess, but I think the army described in the first part of Joel 2 is YHWH's army, an angelic host, who drive all the nations to "the valley of decision" in Joel 3, after Armageddon, after Jesus returns.

But, like I said, that's just my guess.

I think the "northern army" is a different army, a prophecy for that time.

Love in Christ,
Mark