Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
|
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
I'm just info seeking here. So is the ENP still a 16 country organization? If people are thinking this is the 7 year agreement it would have started 1/1/07, and if that is so we would be approaching the mid point of the week right? If that's the case then the AOB would be pretty soon, and the witnesses would be on the scene soon? I just have serious doubts that we are in the first 3 1/2 period of the week. Things are not bad enough yet... I think we are in the birth pains state still No? Thanks
Mr baldy thank you very much for explaining. I see now where this theory fits.Mr Baldy wrote:I'm just info seeking here. So is the ENP still a 16 country organization? If people are thinking this is the 7 year agreement it would have started 1/1/07, and if that is so we would be approaching the mid point of the week right? If that's the case then the AOB would be pretty soon, and the witnesses would be on the scene soon? I just have serious doubts that we are in the first 3 1/2 period of the week. Things are not bad enough yet... I think we are in the birth pains state still No? Thanks
Hi drdos,
I'd like to take a jab at answering your question(s). First, for some of us who have not abandoned the ENP(I) theory, we have come to discover that there is a possibility that the week in which the coming Antichrist will confirm the Covenant with the Many, may be a separate entity than the 70th week of Daniel - but yet they may overlap at some point. There are even those of us who believe that Christ may have fulfilled the first 3.5 years of the final week in His Ministry - thus, leaving a final 3.5 year period that is yet to be fulfilled. This seems to be the case right now, and is consistent with Scripture (in my humble opinion) - which means that "if" the ENP(I) is the "confirming process" of a previous Covenant - which would be the 1995 Euro-Med Process; then the ENP(I) has served as a "marker" to indicate that at some point the final 3.5 years are about to commence.
As far as things that we "expected to see" at the MIDPOINT - like the cessation of sacrifices; a Temple; the Two Witnesses...etc, well, all I can say is Scripture never indicates that we will see any of those things "commence" right at the 1,260 day mark; but however at some point we will have to see them. Scripture does indicate that we will see the A0D (Matthew 24:15) and it does indicate that we will see "armies surround Jerusalem" (Luke 21:20). These two things appear as if it will happen this year, as there is a mandate that Israel is set to be divided - with Peace Keeping Troops stationed there.
This is the reason why some of us believe that the ENP(I) theory is still alive and well. For those who have expected to see certain things happen, and within your own reasoning and timing - then all I can say is lets just wait and see. There are a lot of things going on geopolitically, economically, and by nature, that indicates we are there. If we could "see" everything that has been prophesised to happen - then there would be no need for Jesus to warn us to be ready, or indicate that He is coming at a time that we won't expect. (Matthew 24:44)
As far as things that we "expected to see" at the MIDPOINT - like the cessation of sacrifices; a Temple; the Two Witnesses...etc, well, all I can say is Scripture never indicates that we will see any of those things "commence" right at the 1,260 day mark;
Seeker wrote:Hi Mr. Baldy,As far as things that we "expected to see" at the MIDPOINT - like the cessation of sacrifices; a Temple; the Two Witnesses...etc, well, all I can say is Scripture never indicates that we will see any of those things "commence" right at the 1,260 day mark;
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
In the case of the two witnesses it specifies 1260 days.
Peace,
Seeker
James1:12 wrote:The ad-hoc defence agreements springing up in Europe kicked of by the UK and France will have to come under some sort of EU wide organization for them to be particularly meaningful. Ashton has been asked to head this up but I think that is just some sort of insincere courtesy to the EU given that Ashton has been reluctant to get involved in defense matters. I think there is more organization going on than meets the eye between the national capitals otherwise they would not have all so readily disbanded the WEU at a time when NATO was undergoing structural change.
Scripture is definately clear about the Two Witnesses, and the amount of days that they are given to prophesy. My point is that it may not be clearly seen at the time that they actually commence their testimony - they may not be recognizable to everyday people who are passing by, or to the World for that matter.
as the Antichrist will have his dealings with them; but to say that on day one of the 1,260 period they will be known - I don't think can be supported with Scripture.
Seeker wrote:Hi Mr. Baldy,Scripture is definately clear about the Two Witnesses, and the amount of days that they are given to prophesy. My point is that it may not be clearly seen at the time that they actually commence their testimony - they may not be recognizable to everyday people who are passing by, or to the World for that matter.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Oh they will be recognizable spewing fire and devouring their enemies. God gives them power for 3 1/2 years believe me people will notice. They will be in Jerusalem smiting the earth with all kinds of plagues. That is how their ministry is defined so they will be definitely noticed according to scripture.as the Antichrist will have his dealings with them; but to say that on day one of the 1,260 period they will be known - I don't think can be supported with Scripture.
How many days do you propose that they remain hidden? Wasn't 3 1/2 years back around August? That would be about 150 days past when God says their ministry begins. You're proposing that the two witnesses are still hidden 5 months after the 3 1/2 year mark? They may not be known on day one of the 1260 days but still not known around day 1410.... Can you show me any scripture that supports that theory?
Peace,
Seeker
Seeker wrote:Hi Mr. Baldy,Scripture is definately clear about the Two Witnesses, and the amount of days that they are given to prophesy. My point is that it may not be clearly seen at the time that they actually commence their testimony - they may not be recognizable to everyday people who are passing by, or to the World for that matter.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Oh they will be recognizable spewing fire and devouring their enemies. God gives them power for 3 1/2 years believe me people will notice. They will be in Jerusalem smiting the earth with all kinds of plagues. That is how their ministry is defined so they will be definitely noticed according to scripture.as the Antichrist will have his dealings with them; but to say that on day one of the 1,260 period they will be known - I don't think can be supported with Scripture.
How many days do you propose that they remain hidden? Wasn't 3 1/2 years back around August? That would be about 150 days past when God says their ministry begins. You're proposing that the two witnesses are still hidden 5 months after the 3 1/2 year mark? They may not be known on day one of the 1260 days but still not known around day 1410.... Can you show me any scripture that supports that theory?
Peace,
Seeker
The mid-term point or three and a half years has certainly come and gone.
Loop wrote:The mid-term point or three and a half years has certainly come and gone.
I thought it started in Jan. 2007 ?
07 to o8 = 1 year, 08 to 09 = 2 years, 09 to 10 = 3 years
middle of 2011 would make it 3 1/2 years, not quiet there yet ? ?
Am I missing something ?
david wrote:I have revised my position from almost certain to not sure to don't think so. The mid-term point or three and a half years has certainly come and gone. Today would look for how this instrument is used by the EU and it's future implications for Israel. If more information were posted showing how this is relevant today then maybe...
I have have come to an alternate interpretation for Daniel 9:27. This is the only passage that supports 7 year treaty. Basically Christ has confirmed the covenant with the many, those who believe in him, he put and end to sacrifice by making the ultimate sacrifice, desolation will continue until the one who makes desolate is destroyed by Christ coming. (Paraphrased) According this this view, there is no need for sacrifices to be restored on the temple only to have them "stopped" by an AC.
I still belie in an FP and an AC to come, just not a seven year treaty. Yet I do hold out the possibility of some dual fulfillment with it would be somewhat twisted with non-matching terms.
david
Everything that I have submitted cannot be ruled out - it is my theory based on what "may happen" and that according to the FACTS that our World is showing us today, according to what has been provided in Scripture. I have not made any assumptions - such as you have by reading into Scripture; in that you ASSUME that the Two Witnesses will be spewing fire on day one, or casting plagues on day one, and immediately be recognizable. Now, the ball is in back in your court. Why don't you prove your thoughts with Scripture, and please no "assumptions"!
Loop wrote::lol: One things for sure, never claimed to be good at math....![]()
Running back and forth to the hospital with my mom and losing a horse this week has not helped either....
Seeker wrote:Scripture says that fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies. Those are not my words they are the Lord's. God says that these two have the power to shut up heaven that it rain not in the days of their prophecy...still raining in Jerusalem isn't it. See it is your picture of the two witnesses that has zero in common with scriptures. God gives them power for 3 1/2 years you really think they would be sitting around not using the power God gave them to testify with?
Seeker wrote:Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed
Seeker wrote:Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Seeker wrote:Hi Mr. Baldy,
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
They prophesy for 1260 days. Below is the definition for prophesy.
G4395
προφητεύω
prophēteuō
prof-ate-yoo'-o
From G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office: - prophesy.
They do things they foretell events, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office for 1260 days. During the time that they are taking they action to prophesy they use the power given to them to smite the earth with plagues as often as they wish. There are not two witnesses in Jerusalem at this time prophesying as there would be according to Rev 11:3 if this were the last 1260 days.
Peace,
Seeker
Loop wrote:The mid-term point or three and a half years has certainly come and gone.
I thought it started in Jan. 2007 ?
07 to o8 = 1 year, 08 to 09 = 2 years, 09 to 10 = 3 years
middle of 2011 would make it 3 1/2 years, not quiet there yet ? ?
Am I missing something ?
Hey Loop praying for you and family, and hoping all is well. Blessings
I think you missed something there, 2007+5.5=2010.5 or June 2010. Some how you went from 2010 being three years added a half a year and you got 2011.
david
Mr Baldy wrote:david wrote:I have revised my position from almost certain to not sure to don't think so. The mid-term point or three and a half years has certainly come and gone. Today would look for how this instrument is used by the EU and it's future implications for Israel. If more information were posted showing how this is relevant today then maybe...
I have have come to an alternate interpretation for Daniel 9:27. This is the only passage that supports 7 year treaty. Basically Christ has confirmed the covenant with the many, those who believe in him, he put and end to sacrifice by making the ultimate sacrifice, desolation will continue until the one who makes desolate is destroyed by Christ coming. (Paraphrased) According this this view, there is no need for sacrifices to be restored on the temple only to have them "stopped" by an AC.
I still belie in an FP and an AC to come, just not a seven year treaty. Yet I do hold out the possibility of some dual fulfillment with it would be somewhat twisted with non-matching terms.
david
Hi David,
All I can say is wow.....I never viewed Daniel 9:27 such as you have stated it. However, to suggest that Christ "confirmed the covenant with the many" is to suggest that He is the "he" as it relates to the passage in Daniel 9:27 - this is where we differ. I do find it very interesting however that with your statement, you have included that the "desolation will continue until the one who makes desolate is destroyed by Christ coming." This seems fit Scripture, in that many are expecting a "time of peace" or a so-called "Peace Treaty" to come into effect; when Scripture is clear that "war" will continue until the end. (Daniel 9:26)
It further appears as if you are contradicting Scripture, in that you also say that you do not belive in a seven year treaty, when this is plainly associated (depending on your belief - with the Antichrist who is to come; or with Christ). I will say however, that if there is no need for sacrifices to be restored to the temple - then it would fit plainly in what others, and myself believe, and that is that Christ fulfilled the 1st half of the week (3.5 years) in His Ministry, and subsequent death on the Cross.
I now wonder if Daniel 9:27 is referring to both Christ, and the Antichrist; as they both are included in the entire passages of Scripture from Daniel 9:24-27.
Thanks for your input...you definitely have given me something further to study!
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Seeker wrote:They do things they foretell events, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office for 1260 days. During the time that they are taking they action to prophesy they use the power given to them to smite the earth with plagues as often as they wish. There are not two witnesses in Jerusalem at this time prophesying as there would be according to Rev 11:3 if this were the last 1260 days.
david wrote:Yet to me the evidence for a future 7 treaty is weak.
Mr Baldy wrote:david wrote:Yet to me the evidence for a future 7 treaty is weak.
Hi David,
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on there being a future 7 year treaty as described by Daniel 9:27. And that's okay, because at this point, I don't believe that anyone has all the right answers.
The reason why I began this thread is because things are beginning to either look bright - or be very scary from the standpoint of the unsaved. Many have ruled the ENP(I) theory out because of things that they have "expected" to see at it's Midpoint. Fact of the matter is, there are several accounts which most have not considered - and I have attempted to bring some of them out in this thread. I cannot take credit for brainstorming these ideas - as this belongs to other members of this forum, who have not let the ENP(I) theory die as well. We all have agreed that way too many factors make this theory still valid.
Not to mention, all one has to do is LOOK at what's happening in our World. The major earthquakes, fish, birds, beasts of the field dieing - without an explanation, and the Global economic crisis that we face. Let me close by stating this........
there is a mandate to "divide" Jerusalem, and it is set to happen later this year. This is still within the timeframe of the ENP(I). Scripture is clear that when the END finally sets in, that things will begin to happen very very rapidly - or come in like a flood. In my humble opinion, when they divide the land - you will see "armies" surrounding Jerusalem, the coming Antichrist will have made his move to Jerusalem at some point, and the A0D will occur. Then all hell will break out on Earth. The division of the Land is something that cannot be overlooked, and now it appears as if the whole World is against Israel......time is short.
mrgravyard49 wrote:Sooo, If IF the enp is still around. Then I guess the midpoint is July?
When are we looking at the rapture?
The point that you have not understood is the simple fact that I wrote that the ENP(I) and the 70th week of Daniel may be two separate entities - yet at some point overlap. Again......This is KEY to understanding what I have mentioned. If they do indeed overlap then the actual 1,260 days that they prophesy can be at any point during the week. The ENP(I)'s duration is from January 1, 2007 - December 31, 2013. The point that I'm trying to make is that the Two Witnesses can actually appear on December 30, 2013 - and we would still have a match. You don't seem to get that.
You also have seemed to forget about Daniel 12:11-12; which gives a specific number of days that the A0D and the cessation of sacrifices will have come to fruition - that being 1,290 days. Now explain that mystery inside your own "thinking".
Ok, first I want to say again that I believe that the ENP(I) IS the confirming 7 year process of the Covenant with Many.
Let me qualify why I still believe that the ENP(I) is still the prophesied confirming period of the 1995 Euro-Med - which I believe fulfills the requirements of Daniel 9:27, and is indeed the Covenant with Many. (This is a work in progress with others, whom I am communicating with, in an attempt to figure this all out)
In closing, you won't find anywhere in Scripture that indicates that the week that the Antichrist confirms the Covenant with Many is the same as the beginning of the 70th week.
Nor will you find anywhere in Scripture that the Two Witnesses show up at the "exact" Midpoint of the Week that the Antichrist confirms the Covenant with Many - these thoughts have all been "assumptions", which has subsequently lead to faulty theories as it relates to the End Times.
In closing, you won't find anywhere in Scripture that indicates that the week that the Antichrist confirms the Covenant with Many is the same as the beginning of the 70th week. Nor will you find anywhere in Scripture that the Two Witnesses show up at the "exact" Midpoint of the Week that the Antichrist confirms the Covenant with Many - these thoughts have all been "assumptions", which has subsequently lead to faulty theories as it relates to the End Times.
NeedHim wrote:I just wanted to thank you smart people for your explanations. I've always felt there has been assumptions by the various scholars on many of these things. These discussions are helping me piece things together too. So thanks to both sides of the argument.
Wickus wrote:As Mr Baldy explained in the other posts, the 7 year covenant (ENP) and the 70th week may be two different time frames. There is also good reason from Scripture to believe that there is only 42 months left of the 70th week to be fulfilled. Revelation is full of 1260 days/42 months time frames. There is no mention of 7 years in the book of Revelation.
or 3.5 years couldn't have been fulfilled with the Ministry of Christ. AND, You still can't PROVE that when the coming Antichrist confirms the Covenant with the Many is the beginning of the 70th week. I don't care how many Scriptures you post -that dog just won't hunt.
All you have me quoted as saying is that I believe that the ENP(I) fulfills the requirement of Daniel 9:27; in that it is a 7 year "confirming process" with a Covenant with the Many. This is TRUE, and I stand by it.
I have further qualified this by stating that we "may be" looking for a final 3.5 year period - in that Christ's Ministry "may have" fulfilled the 1st half of this 7 year requirement, and ONLY 3.5 years remain. This is what "appears" to be consistent with Scripture.
Seeker wrote: But then again I am having a hard time understanding you as it seems to change as we go along here. Simple yes or no...is the ENPI the covenant with many in Dan 9:27?
YES.....I believe that the ENP(I) is the Covenant with Many mentioned in Daniel 9:27. What you can't get through your head is that just because there are those of us who believe that it IS the "Covenant with Many" does NOT mean that it begins the 70th week.
Seeker wrote:Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 9:25 7+62=69. That accounts for 69 of the 70 weeks that this prophecy covers. Dan 9:27 he confirms the covenant for the remaining of the 70 which is one. If the ENPI is the covenant with many of Dan 9:27 then the 70th week began with that covenant. How can you not see that it is very clearly written?
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest
”