The Orange Mailman wrote:Okay Tevye, let's open this up. I can't find a post, and I think I've avoided a direct post, but here it is.
When Rosenthal wrote his book, The PreWrath Rapture of the Church, he unlocked a term whereby the church could better understand the timing of the rapture, the nature of the eschatological wrath of God, and the scriptures which correlate with the Day of the LORD. He laid down a solid framework. This was the basic idea.
-Daniel’s 70th week is yet future.
-At the midpoint comes the abomination of desolation.
-After the abomination of desolation begins the great tribulation.
-That great tribulation will continue until the rapture cuts short the great tribulation. This occurs at the sixth seal. After the rapture will begin the Day of the LORD which will include the eschatological wrath of God.
-The Day of the LORD will take up the remainder of Daniel’s 70th week.
-Then begins the millennial reign of Christ.
This is a great foundation. However, Rosenthal also submitted a chronology for the book of Revelation which is the issue that many struggle with when looking at Revelation 14. His chronology of the seals, trumpets, and bowls is what I have an issue with. Here is his chronology.
Seals 1-7, then Trumpets 1-7, which takes us to the end of Daniel’s 70th week. Then in the 30 days which follow Daniel’s 70th week, Bowls 1-7. The issue that I have is that the beast of Revelation 13 is only given 42 months of the authority. The best structure of Revelation’s chronology will end the beast’s authority after 42 months with his destruction. But the bowls depict the beast as still possessing authority as the bowls are being poured out.
Rosenthal asserts that after the seventh trumpet sounds, leading us to the end of Daniel’s 70th week, that there is a section of scripture in Revelation 12-15 which is parenthetical. In essence, Rosenthal believes that we are to push the pause button on chronology after Revelation 11. Then when the first bowl is poured out in Revelation 16, the pause button is pushed again to get the chronology to resume. So in Rosenthal’s mind, and all those who believe that the bowls sequentially follow the trumpets, the events of Revelation 12-15 have no chronological significance.
When I see the rapture in Revelation 14:14-16, I am throwing a huge wrench into the chronological scheme of one of the founders of the PreWrath position. Most PreWrathers deny that there is any connection between Revelation 14:14-16 and the rapture. I had some interaction with Roy Reinhold who holds a very similar position to PreWrath. He denied any connection at all. Other PreWrathers that I have interacted with simply do not want to correlate that there is any connection. That is why I was so surprised that Rosenthal even made the connection that this is a rapture like event. But, he still has the chronology issue that won’t let him accept that this could be the rapture.
Here is my solution. We need a better understanding of Revelation’s chronology. Rather than push the pause button at Revelation 11:19, and then resume at Revelation 16:1, let’s look at the book as a whole, specifically the portions that apply to the end. Revelation 1-5 is fairly introductory. We need not bother too much with chronology there. Revelation 6 is where it gets good. The seals, I believe, begin at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week. The first five seals represent the different facets of the antichrist’s authority, including the great tribulation at the fifth seal. The sixth seal is the rapture, showing two multitudes, one remnant on earth, the other in heaven having been raptured. Then comes the wrath of God in seven phases, or trumpets 1-7 in that order. So far, I agree with Rosenthal. Here is the chronology of Revelation 6-11.
Seal 1, Seal 2, Seal 3, Seal 4, Seal 5, Seal 6, Seal 7, (beginning of God’s wrath)
Trumpet 1, Trumpet 2, Trumpet 3, Trumpet 4, Trumpet 5, Trumpet 6, Trumpet 7 (end of the 70th week)
Why on earth end the 70th week here? It is not where John or the Holy Spirit end it! One day while minding my own business, reading in Dan. 9:27, when my eyes and mind got to "midst" God suddenly spoke to me and I heard these words: "you could find that exact midpoint 'clearly marked' in the book of Revelation." I was dumbfounded. But my spirit-man spoke up and ask, "how would I find that?" And He answered, "whenever I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint of the week and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 years. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire 70th week 'clearly marked.'"
When He said those last words, I knew in my spirit that when I found "marker" for the midpoint, it would be the SAME MARKER for the beginning and end. And indeed, that is exactly what I found. God has used the "sevens" for markers: the entire 70th week is laid out marked by the sevens. The 7th seal begins the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, and the 7th vial ends the week. In Rev. 16, at the 7th vial we see the words, "it is done," or "It is finished." There is good proof that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, because in 12:6, seconds after the abomination, we see those living in Judea fleeing - because they have just seen it. They are the "woman" or those in Israel that know to flee. So the exact mipoint, the time of the abomination, must be seconds before 12:6. Back up and the only event you can find is the 7th trumpet.
And that in itself is very unusual in the way it is written. Between the 6th and 7th seal, John went into a "intermission" where like in a play the curtain is closed so they can rearrange the set. That is exactly what John does. Two events must be accomplished before the 7th seal begins the day of the Lord and the 70th week. (Yes, they begin together.) These two events are the rapture of the church and the sealing of the 144,000. John does the same kind of an intermission between the 6th and 7th trumpets. There are many things that must happen just before the exact midpoint, and many things right after it, so John is "rearranging the set" while the curtain of the trumpets is temporarily closed. Now, imagine you at seeing the "Nutcracker," you are at the midpoint intermission and everyone is leaving for refreshments or bathrooms. But suddenly you see the curtain open quickly, and king soldier kills the King rat, and the curtain closes again - and most of the people MISSED IT! Of course that would never happen, for everyone would demand their money back! But that is EXACTLY what John does. The Midpoint intermission begins in chapter 10, and goes through chapter 14 at least. All the events of these chapters take place very close to the midpoint. But in the middle of the intermission, suddenly the curtain opens quickly and the 7th trumpet is sounded; then it is back to the intermission to rearrange the set in preparation for the vials, which come during he second half of the 70th week.
If you will notice the message of one of the angels in chapter 14, the angel is warning NOT TO TAKE THE MARK. Therefore it makes good sense that the mark has not yet been set up, but is about to be. So John is still close to the midpoint.
Back up to Chapter 13. There is something we must understand about John's chronology. in verses 1-6, John is VERY CLOSE in chronology to the abomination and midpoint. And to follow his chronology, we read to verse 5. From that verse on, John is writing a parenthesis, taking us on a SIDE JOURNEY down the last half of the week with the Beast. He does the same thing in chapter 11. The first two verses are in His chronology, perhaps a week before the abomination. The Beast must GET TO JERUSALEM before He can walk into the temple. Of course he comes with armies. Without a doubt, Muslim armies. Then, the next verse, 11:3 comes exactly 3 1/2 days before the abomination. But verses 4 to 13 are a parenthesis or SIDE JOURNEY or rabbit trail down the last half of the week with the two witnesses. These verses are in NO WAY a part of John's chronology. So the two witnesses show up 3 1/2 days before the abomination, and being their 1260 days or witnessing. then, 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial, they are killed. They lay dead for 3 1/2 days, and then rise up at the 7th vial, when ALL the old testament saints rise. It is the "last day" of the 70th week.
But 3 1/2 days after they begin to testify, the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven and the abomination occurs on earth. It is the exact midpoint of the week.
Revelation 12-16 also contains a chronology. The events of Revelation 12-13 contain a few basic things that occur at the dawn of time and the first advent, but very quickly shift to the end times 1260 days, or the last half of Daniel’s 70th week.
There is a better way of saying this. Chapter 11 was mostly God introducing John to the two witnesses. Chapter 12 is God introducing John to the dragon - and in particular what the dragon would do during the last half of the week. But in so doing, God chose to show John what the dragon DID, past tense, when Jesus was born. So 12:1-5 is another parenthesis that has no part of John's chronology. Then, in describing the dragon, a reference is made of his fall. But most of chapter 12 is midpoint chronology. The war in heaven takes place seconds after the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. Every wonder why? You see, the 7th trumpet also marks the end of one millennium and the beginning of another. It also marks the END OF THE REIGN of Satan being the god of this world. ha ha! His lease (Adam's lease that he usurped) and ENDED! the first 6000 years have ENDED, and suddenly Satan as no legal ground! He he! So Michael goes IMMEDIATELY to work casting him DOWN. Then, the first few verses of chapter 13 follow the war in heaven.
The rise of the beast from the sea describes the different facets of the antichrist’s authority. So we are essentially covering the same ground as the seals, but with more details revealed. Here we have a description of the ten horns, the false prophet, and the mark of the beast.
I hope you read this part carefully, for this is where Rosenthal and Van Kampen and still all prewrathers miss it COMPLETELY! Since the 70th week begins at the 7th seal, that means the first 6 seals are NOT IN the 70th week. Indeed, they are church age events. If we study the vision of chapters 4 & 5, we see that it is a vision of the past (just like 12:1-5). God is showing John a vision of the throne room while Jesus is still on the earth. That is why Jesus was not at first seen at the right hand of the Father. That is why "no man was found" worthy to break the seals. Jesus had not yet risen from the dead, so was not yet worthy. that is why the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, when Jesus said as soon as he went up He would send Him down. And that is why John got to see the very moment that Jesus ascended into the throne room, having just told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. All this was written so we could see the timing of the first seal was about 33 AD. The first seal is to represent the CHURCH of Jesus Christ, sent out to conquer nations and make disciples. The next three seals, the red horse, the black horse, and the pale horse, are the devil's attempt to STOP the church. But of course He failed completely. There is no nation under the sun where there are not born again people. So the truth is, by the time we get to chapter 13, the seals are LONG OVER. Chapter 13 has nothing at all to do with the seals.
fter this, we transition into chapter 14 which contains a description of the 144,000 on Mount Zion. So this is another parallel passage to the previous chronology.
NEGATORY!! This is in perfect chronology! At first the 144,000 were sealed for their protection during the trumpets. But then they are RAPTURED and in chapter 14 are seen in heaven around the throne of God. After all, they were called FIRSTFRUITS, meaning, they would get there FIRST. So this is not parallel to anything.
I view the details of Revelation 14 to be more information on what we already know, just like Revelation 12-13 was more information concerning the antichrist and the suffering of the saints that we saw in Revelation 6.
But Rev. 6 was CHURCH AGE suffering and had nothing at all to do with the 7th week. The martyrs in the 5th seal are church age martyrs and are told that they must wait until the FINAL CHURCH AGE MARTYR. So what would make the final martyr of the church age? Of course the END of the church age. It ENDS at the 6th seal - the very next event from the 5th seal. And the raptured church is seen in heaven in chapter 7. Don't be thrown off by the two words, "great tribulation." John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less got to the midpoint and the days following when there would be days of great tribulation greater than any other time. No, these people NEVER SAW THE BEAST! It is 3 1/2 years too soon to see the beast. All John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, people will be being killed for their testimony around the world. It is like that in half the world today. Jesus did NOT put a title on the last half of the week: "great tribulation." When he mentioned those words, He said "THOSE DAYS." "Tribulation cannot get any greater than when someone is killed for their testimony: they cannot be killed twice - so it could not get greater.
Revelation 14 has the three angelic announcements. Then there is a clear description of the rapture, which I started this thread to highlight that idea.
I believe you are mistaken. the timing is wrong. This is not the church being harvested. But you are right in a way, for after the rapture at the 6th seal, MILLIONS will turn to the Lord. But they will all be put to death by the Beast. This is the first harvest. It is a harvest of the righteous.
Then immediately after this, there is an event known as the great winepress of God’s wrath. This is showing us that the wrath of God follows the rapture.
Sorry, but God's wrath was felt in the trumpet judgments. Yes, God is STILL ANGRY. But I believe this scene is given as a prophecy. Corn may have been harvested with a sickle, but not humans. This scene is highly symbolic, and I believe also prophetic. For the biggest part of the harvest of the wicked will come when Jesus comes, at the battle of Armageddon, and the parable of the tares that I believe will take place at His coming. So I think these scenes in chapter 14 are prophetic and symbolic.
Just as Revelation 7 showed two different groups of people, one in heaven and one on earth, so Revelation 14-15 shows the same. There are the 144,000 in Revelation 14:1-5, then in Revelation 15, we see the church victorious over the beast, but standing in heaven. Following this, the bowls will be poured out on the earth which are described as God’s wrath. At the seventh bowl, “It is finished.” This would lead us to the end of Daniel’s 70th week, and the end of the reign of the beast, so ending the 42 months of authority.
You must remember, none of the vials have been poured out yet. The beast is now perfecting his killing machine, and is just about to reach the peak of his murderous reign. Those seen in chapter 15 have been put to death by the beast. They are 70th week martyrs. God begins to pour out the vials when the killing is at its peak, and God's anger hits a peak! The vials are to SHORTEN the day of GT. And indeed they will. By the time a few of the vials are poured out, the armies of the beast that do his bidding are rendered HELPLESS. So the killing stops. The Beast will still have his 42 months, but he is rendered HELPLESS by the vials. So his 42 months goes all the way to chapter 19, when he is caught. You will notice that his 42 months were the LAST of the five mentions of the last 3 1/2 years.
In short, Revelation 6-11 describes a chronology, which is basically the events of the last half of Daniel’s 70th week. Revelation 12-16 also describes a chronology, which is also the last half of Daniel’s 70th week, with a couple of brief exceptions at the very beginning.
I disagree totally. John's chronology is STRAIGHT, but with some parenthesis.
After chapter 16 concludes, the angel takes John on a tour to help him understand things better. He sees a vision of the prostitute which helps him to explain the nature of the beast.
Babylon the Great is the city of Jerusalem ONLY during the time that the world is deceived by the Beast and the false prophet that are residing there. OF COURSE anyone coming in the place of Jesus MUST come to Jerusalem. Chapters 17 and 18 shows John a close up view of the destruction of Jerusalem. While the Beast lived there, UNTOLD billions of dollars were spent on riches sent to Jerusalem. After all, He owns all the Arab oil! So we get a close up view of what the 7th vial did.
He sees a vision of the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Of course the marriage MUST WAIT until the day of the resurrection of the Old Testament saints. They will get resurrection bodies too, and will be escorted to heaven to the marriage. They will NOT be left out! Notice that this wedding and supper are IN HEAVEN just before Jesus gets on the white horse. This one event shows the fallacy of a post trib rapture of the church: they would MISS the wedding.
He sees a vision of Armageddon. He sees the New Jerusalem, the new heaven, and the new earth. All of these can be inserted back into the chronology which was revealed in Revelation 6-11 and 12-16, which both happen concurrently.
Absolutely NOT. These events come AFTER the 70th week.
With this basic foundation, now we can discuss how the trumpets and bowls occur in a parallel fashion. There is no evidence in the book of Revelation that the bowls occur in the 30 days following Daniel’s 70th week. But if there are any questions or objections that need to be covered first, I will address them.
Sorry, but neither John nor the Holy Spirit was confused. The trumpet are sounded in the FIRST HALF of the week, and the vials come in the SECOND HALF.