Post-Wrath

by **Exit40** on Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:15 am

Hi Seeker. I haven't given much thought to the rapture lately as, honestly, I couldn't figure out a simple thing like calling it post wrath. Explains very nicely my beliefs. And I feel almost certain I will get my head lopped off. Too old too run, rather I would love to stand in my Faith. I hope when my head stops rolling around my mouth will continue to speak the Truth. I imagine that would get some attention, eh ? Seems fitting, I can hardly shut up once I get started talking about Jesus.

Oh I think it is possible that they may be saved I just don't think they will swallow their pride and do it. God offers repentence during His wrath.

Right, they love not the Truth so they don't repent. And...

Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here is a condition for entry into the Kingdom, we must do the will of The Father. Kinda scary to think about, how do we know what that is ? I think it stems from a heart condition, the circumcised heart is receptive to His Word to us, and it is our desire to obey and serve. Plus, there is no faking it, and few make it...

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

God Bless You

David

by **Seeker** on Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:52 am

Hi David,

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Thank God all things are possible with Him for I would have no chance otherwise.

Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That's basically my prayer David. I just hope I can keep that in mind when things really get bad. The ones escaping don't leave earth they just manage to stay alive through it all and stand before Christ when He arrives. Not all will be lopped but many will. I have always sort of felt beheading was in my future but hey I am an optimist some will be changed from corruptible to incorruptible so we may not be lopped David...lol. Either way I am like you praying words of praise will be flowing from my lips throughout whatever my destiny is.

Peace,
Seeker

by **TexasBeliever** on Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:26 am

The harvest of believers is not post-wrath according to the scriptures. The harvest seperates the wicked from the chosen, so they will not have to experience wrath.

Scripture says believers are not destined for wrath. Jesus said our gathering unto Him would be "after the tribulation of those days." ( as in, "in the world you will have tribulation") Tribulation is not wrath.

Jesus said His coming will be a coming in fire. He also said His reward is with Him. He said those who suffer loss of reward will be saved, but as one "fleeing through fire."

We, (the living and the dead) are resurrected/transformed/harvested, as He comes in fire to judge the earth. WE are literally fleeing through fire in the harvest, which is after the tribulation of those days.

by **bchandler** on Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:56 pm

Take a look at where God's angels declare his wrath...

Immediately after the wheat harvest, there is a summary of what comes next with the grapes of wrath (which we are not appointed to) Then we see an angel declare the final seven judgments which are the "undiluted wrath" of God!!

Note that there is no time frame defined for the seven bowls of wrath...

I believe that these seven bowls are poured out over seven literal days... from the end of the last trumpet of the feast of trumpets, to the day of atonement.

I believe that Jesus returns in fulfillment of the prophetic feast of trumpets, at the last trumpet, or great blast. This is the feast that "no man knows the day or the hour, only the father in heaven knows."

I believe that the raptured (caught away) bride goes in to the seven days of consummation with Christ. The time when we become truly one with him.

I believe that the bride is presented to the wedding guests and the wedding feast occurs on the seventh day.

I believe that it is during these seven literal days of the wedding, that the last seven plagues of Gods undiluted wrath are poured out.

I believe that on the 8th day, the day of atonement (at-one-ment) The bride is presented to the whole world, and Christ takes up the throne of David and begins his literal thousand year reign in fulfillment of prophecy.

Jesus fulfilled the first half of the feasts of God on the exact days, in the exact years, and in some cases right down to the exact hour of the prophetic feast.

Since Jesus was so precise with the timing of events in his first advent, we have no reason to believe that he will be any less precise with events during his second advent. I fully expect all of the remaining feasts of God (which represent the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant) to be fulfilled at his second advent, on the exact feast days, right down to the exact hour of the prophetic feasts...

I expect them to occur in accordance with prophecy, as prophesied, in a year of Jubilee.

by **Seeker** on Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:59 pm

Hi TexasBeliever,

The harvest of believers is not post-wrath according to the scriptures. The harvest seperates the wicked from the chosen, so they will not have to experience wrath.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This is what Jesus teaches regarding the "harvest". Above is the parable and below is the interpretation that we are given by Jesus Himself.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus tells us that He sowed the good seed, the field is the world, and the good seed are the children of the kingdom. The tares, though, are the children of the wicked one. The devil sowed the tares into the wheat. Then He defines "harvest" for us. The harvest is the end of the world. The servants ask Him if they should gather up the tares. His reply is no they may root up some wheat along with the tares. Instead Jesus says to let both grow together until the harvest (end of the world). At the time of the harvest the reapers (angels) are told to gather the tares first before the wheat. In the interpretation it says as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of the world. The same way the tares are dealt with in the parable is how it will happen at the harvest/end of world.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The net was cast and gathered every kind. The bad are cast away. The wicked are severed from among the just. The wicked/tares are the ones removed first. we see it in other scriptures as well.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Just as the days of Noah were so will the coming of Jesus be...and knew not until the flood came and took them all away. It was the wicked that was removed not the just. Jesus says it will be as the days of Noah. Noah and his family were the only ones not taken by the flood. They were on a boat on earth while the flood raged about them and witnessed the carnage of mankind drowning beside them. They were witnesses of the wrath but were not subject to the wrath.

Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The same day Lot was saved is the same day fire rain down on Sodom. Two groups at the wrath again with the evil group being destroyed. Matt 13 gives us the order showing tares/wicked being removed first.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Evil destroyed

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

First resurrection

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Evil destroyed

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Resurrection

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When the Lord Jesus is "revealed from heaven" taking vengence on those that don't know God....and to be admired in all them that believe. Two groups again those getting vengence and all them that believe. Let both grow together until the harvest...which is precisely what all the second coming scriptures show. There are two groups present when Jesus returns. The evil group is removed from the earth leaving the righteous to inherit the kingdom of the Father.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The angels gather out all things that offend leaving the righteous to shine as the sun in the kingdom of the Father. Evil is removed first just as it was in the flood of Noah.

Peace,
Seeker

by **bchandler** on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:10 pm

We must distinguish between the "end of the age" and the "end of the world".

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Emphasized above is the time of this event.... The end of the world! Which occurs at the end of the millennial reign!

This is why we see it spoken of in two different ways in scripture.

At Christs second coming the bride is caught away to be with him.

At the end of the millennium (which is the end of the world) the wicked are removed from the earth. Then sometime after this, the GWT judgment occurs, the elements melt with fervent heat, heaven and earth pass away, there is a new heaven and earth, and the new Jerusalem descends out of heaven to the new earth, and the triune God dwells with man forever.

by **Seeker** on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:27 pm

Hi bchandler,

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Emphasized above is the time of this event.... The end of the world! Which occurs at the end of the millennial reign!

Can you not see that both are gathered at the same time? If the end of the world is at the end of the millennium, as you claim, then the wheat aren't gathered until then also. Let both grow together until the harvest. If the tares aren't harvested until the end of the millennium then neither are the wheat/children of the kingdom.

Peace,
Seeker

by **shorttribber** on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:28 pm

Seeker wrote:Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Does the scripture say.........."and burn them FIRST"?........Or does the text say "gather ye together the tares, and bind them in bundles........TO........burn them"?

You could say they are separated out or identified as different from the just and are lumped together.....TO BE....burned.....AFTER the gathering of the just, as Rev. 14 describes. The harvest.....THEN the wrath.

:blessyou:

by **Seeker** on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:37 pm

Hi shorttribber,

Does the scripture say.........."and burn them FIRST"?

Yes it does as a matter of fact, in the interpretation.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Peace,
Seeker

by **bchandler** on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:40 pm

shorttrib, you make an excellent point.

With regard to the harvest... um... there are people on the earth who survived the trib, and are not part of the bride, and are not living in glorified bodies.

There is still sin and wickedness in the world. There is still a rebellion at the end... and there will be more righteous people gathered at the end of the millennium who will be judged and who will go on to the new heaven and earth.

So is it possible that there are more than one harvest? One at the end of the age, and one at the end of the world?

At the end of the age, we are caught away to him, at the end of the world, the wicked are finally completely purged. and only the righteous remain alive.

by **shorttribber** on Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:52 pm

Seeker wrote:Hi shorttribber,

Does the scripture say.........."and burn them FIRST"?

Yes it does as a matter of fact, in the interpretation.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Peace,
Seeker

i must disagree........it says..........To burn them...............it happens after thy have been separated from AMOUNG the just.

:blessyou:

we must give the weight and value Rev 14 deserves and compare other potions of scripture to it, for it (Rev14) shows the the harvest very clearly BEFORE the trampling of the vineyard.

by **Exit40** on Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:02 am

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

of the world: g165
αἰών aiōn

Strong's G165 - aiōn
αἰών

Transliteration

aiōn
Part of Speech
masculine noun
From the same as ἀεί (G104)
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

For further discussion....

God Bless

David

by **Seeker** on Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:22 am

Hi shorttribber,

i must disagree........it says..........To burn them...............it happens after thy have been separated from AMOUNG the just.

The separation is the casting into the furnace of fire. They burn because they are tossed into fire. The parable is interpreted by Jesus.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

The disciples ask Jesus to interpret the parable He had just told the crowd.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

That corresponds to this portion of the parable.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Now I will finish the interpretation pairing up the corresponding parable verses. Jesus is giving us the exact meaning for each part of the parable. I am simply pointing those words out to you.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;...

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

The field is defined as the world. The good seed are the children of the kingdom but the tares are the children of the wicked one. The enemy that sowed the tares is the Devil. Jesus tells us exactly what each item in the parable stands for. Matthew 13:27-29 the servants of Jesus, who sowed the seeds, ask Him if they should go gather up the tares and He says no they may pull up some wheat in the process.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The harvest is the end of the world and the reapers are the angels.

Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them:

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Gather ye together first...Is there any confusion on your part as to what the word first means here?

G4412
πρῶτον
prōton
pro'-ton
Neuter of G4413 as an adverb (with or without G3588); firstly (in time, place, order, or importance): - before, at the beginning, chiefly, (at, at the) first (of all).

The tares are gathered first in Mat 13:41 by the reapers/angels and cast into the fire where they burn as anything does when it hits a fire. Then the righteous shine forth in the Fathers everlasting kingdom/barn. The tares are removed "first" then the righteous are left in the kingdom as all things that offend have been removed. Jesus is the one that says the tares go first it is not my opinion it is interpreted scripture by the Lord Himself that says that. I'll address Rev 14 in the next post.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Seeker** on Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:28 am

Interesting David thanks!

Peace,
Seeker

by **Seeker** on Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:40 am

Hi shorttribber,

Revelation 14 shows two groups reaped at the same time. Nothing different than what I have been saying. In the case of Rev 14 the righteous are spoken of first I will agree. The deal is though in all other cases the wicked are shown dealt with first. Especially in Matt 13 it specifically says the tares go first.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

What is Jesus doing here when He is revealed from heaven? What is His first order of events? He is revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengence on the wicked. How was it the tares are destroyed? Just as shown here. Jesus takes care of evil first and then is admired in all them that believe. Two groups again. There are always two groups shown when Jesus returns. Both grow together until the harvest.

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

In that day shows believers there to see the wicked taken out with fire as Jesus arrives. Do you see that? They witness the wrath but are not subject to it.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Before the elect are gathered we see all the tribes on earth mourning as they see Him arriving in the clouds. He was arriving in 2Th1 also so this is the same timeframe. They mourn because they know the wrath is eminent when they see Him in the clouds.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is why they are mourning in Matt 24. Two groups in Matt 24 with the mourners shown before the elect are gathered.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Here we see the same time frame as the cosmic signs in Rev 6 and Matt 24. The Lord arrives to destroy the sinners out of the land same picture we see everywhere we see the Lord returning. Here it is again in Rev 19-20.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Here we see Jesus leaving heaven heading to earth armed with a sharp sword to smite the nations.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Here the nations are smitten.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And there is the first resurrection after the nations are smitten.

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.
Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

Nations smitten and then the people to serve and call upon Him. Again evil removed being mentioned first. Rev 14 is the only place actually that doesn't show sinners being dealt with first.

Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

The heathen judged/harvest at the cosmic signs timeframe.

Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Then the gathering of His people. The story is consistantly enemies of Israel removed and then Israel gathered. The order of listing is the same everywhere but Rev 14 which does however show both groups present at the same time. Then of course Matt 13 tells us very clearly and plainly that the tares are gathered first. I will side with the clear majority of scripture which indicates the that evil is removed prior to the gathering in both the OT and NT the story is the same because it has to be. The end of the world in the OT has to match the end of the world in the NT which Post-Wrath does.

Peace,
Seeker

by **bchandler** on Wed Jan 12, 2011 12:13 pm

Seeker,

This could also be seen as the difference between the catching away of the bride, and the second coming of Christ.

because we see a harvest occur first, which directly corresponds to the rapture as described in the new testament. Immediately AFTER the rapture we see the trampling out of the grapes of wrath, and immediately following we see a more complete description of the battle of Armageddon.

Where the armies of the world are "gathered together" against his second coming. They are destroyed by the brightness of his coming.

At the BEMA judgment the anti-christ, false prophet, and if I remember correctly all those who received the mark of the beast are cast into the lake of fire. It looks like these are the tares who are gathered out from among the wheat to be burned.

There are still left those who did not receive the mark, or worship the beast. They are survivors. There is no indication that God judges these survivors at this time. The only indication is that the remnant of those who receive the mark are slain and possibly judged at Jesus coming, while an earlier verse indicates that they who received the mark and worshiped him go with them into the lake of fire. So it seems that these may actually be judged and put into the lake of fire at the same time as the beast and the false prophet.

The rest of the dead are not judged until the GWT judgment.

So once again, the argument could be made that this gathering of the tares occurs twice... both at the second coming and the end of the world. But once again, we must distinguish the second coming from the rapture, as they may be 2 distinct events, that may be separated by a mere matter of minutes, or by as much as seven actual days.

by **Seeker** on Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:16 pm

Hi bchandler,

At the BEMA judgment the anti-christ, false prophet, and if I remember correctly all those who received the mark of the beast are cast into the lake of fire. It looks like these are the tares who are gathered out from among the wheat to be burned.

There are still left those who did not receive the mark, or worship the beast. They are survivors. There is no indication that God judges these survivors at this time. The only indication is that the remnant of those who receive the mark are slain and possibly judged at Jesus coming, while an earlier verse indicates that they who received the mark and worshiped him go with them into the lake of fire. So it seems that these may actually be judged and put into the lake of fire at the same time as the beast and the false prophet.

The rest of the dead are not judged until the GWT judgment.

All things that offend are removed from the earth at the judgment of the AC/FP as Jesus returns. I think the survivors could be those left in the nations that did not worship Christ or the AC. The pigmy in the outback type or simply people within the AC nations who didn't follow along with him. There is still aging and death in the millennium. The Christians will have been raptured during the millennium so have their immortal bodies. There are remnants of the nations where Israel was exiled to mentioned in millennial passages. So apparently there are some survivors into the millennium. Those that were warned but took the MOB are removed from the earth and cast into the furnace of fire at the harvest i.e. tares. During the millennium Christians reign with Christ for the 1,000 years as priests and kings. I theorize that the survivors need to be taught and governed under the rule of Christ and those with Christ during the 1,000 years will be helping in that capacity. Not all will accept Jesus during the millennium as a group joins Satan's final assult on Jerusalem. They are destroyed and added to the group in the lake of fire along with those judged at the GWTJ. A second group of tares if you will but the first group are dealt with at the same time as the Christians at the return of Christ. Because they both grew together the first group of tares leaves first before the Christians (Matt 13). That satifies every scripture I can think of if you can understand what I mean.

Peace,
Seeker

by **bchandler** on Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:02 pm

it is this gathering of the 2 gatherings of armies, 1 at the end of the age, and 2 at the end of the world, that looks alot to me like the gathering of the tares.

My point being that the gathering can occur, the bride can be raptured immediately after or during the gathering of tares at Meggido. Especially if the "wrath of God" described in the seven bowl judgments is only 7 days long, as i suspect it might be.

This deals with the tares issue, allows for the rapture to occur as described in thessalonians, and still fits into a "post-trib" model of the rapture of the church... because the rapture occurs after the great trib, and just before the final seven bowls of wrath.

Which means that I hold both... a post-trib and pre-wrath view of the rapture.

by **shorttribber** on Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:16 pm

bchandler wrote:it is this gathering of the 2 gatherings of armies, 1 at the end of the age, and 2 at the end of the world, that looks alot to me like the gathering of the tares.

My point being that the gathering can occur, the bride can be raptured immediately after or during the gathering of tares at Meggido. Especially if the "wrath of God" described in the seven bowl judgments is only 7 days long, as i suspect it might be.

This deals with the tares issue, allows for the rapture to occur as described in thessalonians, and still fits into a "post-trib" model of the rapture of the church... because the rapture occurs after the great trib, and just before the final seven bowls of wrath.

Which means that I hold both... a post-trib and pre-wrath view of the rapture.

by **jgilberAZ** on Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:14 pm

bchandler wrote:Which means that I hold both... a post-trib and pre-wrath view of the rapture.

Me, too.

by **Seeker** on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:04 am

Hi bchandler,shorttribber, and jgilberAZ,

It is rare that I can answer 3 posts in one shot...lol.

bchandler wrote:

Which means that I hold both... a post-trib and pre-wrath view of the rapture.

Your last couple posts have shown some real insight. It reminds me of myself just before I left pre-wrath for post-wrath. I would love to agree but unfortunately there are scriptures that prevent me from doing so.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Who is Blessed in Rev 16:15 just before the last vial? Who is Jesus addressing there? When does Jesus come as a thief?

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Absolutely positively Jesus leaving from heaven to attack the forces of Armageddon here.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The AC and company defeated at Armageddon. So Rev 19 establishes that Jesus leaves heaven bound for Armageddon with the armies of heaven following. When is Armageddon? Rev 16:16 which is one verse before the 7th vial. Armageddon does not occur until the majority of the wrath of God has been dispenced. Jesus returns at Armageddon after the 6th vial. Do you all see that? See that establishes when Jesus returns in wrath, at Armageddon/ 7th vial. The tares are harvested at Armageddon which would set the wheat harvest at that time as well.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The sudden destruction affects the tares when they say peace and safety and they shall not escape (as it was in the days of Noah). But ye, brethren are not in darkness, that that day.....That day? What day? The day the tares are suddenly taken the brethren are not in darkness that that day should overtake them. They have to be present when the tares are taken for them to be warned to watch so "that day"...the day the tares are removed...does not affect them. This again showing Christians present to witness the removal of the tares at Armageddon.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Sorry you all but scripture just will not allow me to accept anything other than Post-Wrath.

Peace,
Seeker

by **shorttribber** on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:40 am

Seeker wrote:Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Who is Blessed in Rev 16:15 just before the last vial? Who is Jesus addressing there? When does Jesus come as a thief?

Hi seeker,

Verse 15 is the key.........I too feel this is the strongest verse in support of your excepted timing and one that weakens my position.

I believe though that the passage can be a reference to KEEPING GARMENTS, and WATCHING.......PRIOR to the poured out wrath of God..............SO THAT........we do NOT enter wrath.........THAT..................THEY........do not...........SEE..............THE FAITHFUL CHURCH.............SHAMED.

I understand the words are sandwiched between the six and seventh vial........BUT

look at this........

Rev 22:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Does Jesus come at Rev 22:12?

No....He is reiterating a statement of FACT..........In the same way He reiterates a STATEMENT of FACT in Rev.16:15
He is making a TRUE statement about deliverence and shame ....but not based specificly on exact TIMING of an event.

:blessyou:

by **Seeker** on Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:08 am

Hi shorttribber,

I believe though that the passage can be a reference to KEEPING GARMENTS, and WATCHING.......PRIOR to the poured out wrath of God..............SO THAT........we do NOT enter wrath

The problem is that we have already gone through 6 vial judgments of wrath at this point. Your position would say that the wrath of God began at the 1st vial. So this statement just prior to Armageddon would be well into the wrath of God, 6 vials into it actually. We can't take it out of where it was written so the statement is made as part of the vial judgments which are part of the wrath of God. This indicates strongly that there will be Christians around to hear those words.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Does Jesus come at Rev 22:12?

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

No but notice that when He does, as He is describing in Rev 22:12, there will be unjust, filthy, righteous, and holy men...two groups sinners and saints.

Peace,
Seeker

by **jgilberAZ** on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:02 am

Seeker,

Haven't I seen somewhere where you tie the sixth seal to the rapture?

ie, do you see the seals, trumpets, and bowls overlapping in some fashion?

- Jeff

by **Exit40** on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:23 am

I have a proposal. We know the Lord comes with His Saints.....

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

I propose these are the dead in Christ, those beheaded in the Trib as well as ALL those who died in Christ prior, OT Saints too, and are now resting with the Lord, resurrected first to accompany the Lord at His return. The ones who are alive and remain are still here on earth as humans throughout the Trib destruction and wrath, protected by the Lord as they are worthy to escape all these things. This would explain why they that make it to the 1335 day are Blessed. At that point in time they are translated from living human bodies into glorified Saints. Is there any reason for an immediacy of translated living saints after the Resurrection of the dead saints ? I don't think so, just they are the second to be resurrected after all these things happen. Could be seven days, but could be forty five days. The 1290 days now appears to be a thirteen month year within the second half of the 70th week, maybe the last year, a required calender correction, and no doubt affects the fall feast times and the timing of the Lord's return.

God Bless

David

by **Seeker** on Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:46 am

Hi jgilberAZ,

Seeker,

Haven't I seen somewhere where you tie the sixth seal to the rapture?

ie, do you see the seals, trumpets, and bowls overlapping in some fashion?

Funny you should ask I about included that in the last post. The 7th of each occurs at the same point in time, here I will show you.

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

The time frame for this event is when Jesus is returning to earth to defeat the AC and company (Rev 19) or the beginning of the millennium...it is done. So the 7th vial occurs when Jesus and the armies of heaven are heading to earth to remove the tares/Armageddon.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

There should be time no longer and when the 7th trumpet sounds the mystery of God should be finished.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

At the 7th trumpet the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and He shall reign for ever and ever. Christ begins His everlasting reign at the 7th trumpet. That begins after Armageddon(Rev 11:18). He doesn't reign until after Armageddon is over. That sets the timing of the 7th trumpet to the same time as the 7th vial. It is done the mystery of God finished. They both occur at the same point in time.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The sixth seal contains the cosmic signs.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The cosmic signs occur immediately after the AC tribulation and just before Jesus returns to gather the elect. Notice all tribes on earth mourn (they are the tares). These cosmic signs occur just before Jesus returns to destroy the tares.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So we have the tares hiding from Jesus as He arrives in wrath. This means that the 6th seal occurs just before the return of Jesus so the 7th would be sometime after that making it occur at the same point in time as the 7th trumpet and vial. If the 7th of each occur at the same point in time ending with the same event (millennial reign of Christ) they have to be parallel at least the 7th of each are. How the others pair off I really am not sure. Some are similar and easy to see and others don't seem to line up but the 7th of each are clearly the same event.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Seeker** on Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:23 am

Hi David,

I have a proposal. We know the Lord comes with His Saints.....

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

I propose these are the dead in Christ, those beheaded in the Trib as well as ALL those who died in Christ prior, OT Saints too, and are now resting with the Lord, resurrected first to accompany the Lord at His return.

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

I agree but view them as the souls of those who will reunite with their bodies upon arrival. The execution of the judgment is the removal of the tares. The tares go first so they would be just before the dead rise. The rising dead would be the wheat. The wheat and tares grow together until the harvest and then the tares go first. The wheat is defined as "children of the kingdom" which would include the OT saints and everyone you listed. I know this seems like a trivial point but to match scripture we have the tares and then the wheat and then those still alive.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We know there is a physical bodily resurrection. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout. We know that He returns in flaming fire to destroy the sinners as He descends as well. So as He arrives the tares go first before the wheat (dead in Christ/those alive and remaining). The dead in Christ bodies rise to meet their souls which Jesus brings with Him...and then we who are alive and remain???

The other thought I have had is that the saints with Him could be the group of OT saints resurrected when Jesus was.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

There was some sort of resurrection here so they will no doubt be with him on the return trip. How many is many bodies of saints? Good thoughts by the way, there is still much that is hazy yet in my mind.

Peace,
Seeker

by **bchandler** on Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:30 pm

here is the issue I see with this...

At the harvest Jesus is seen in the clouds, on his throne, harvesting the earth... Not riding on a horse at the head of his armies.

So, apparently there is at least some small period of time between the harvest(rapture), and the second coming. It appears from revelation that it is during this time that the tares are gathered at Meggiddo. Where Jesus is during this time is not told to us. We do not know if we are here on earth with him in a special place, or if we are in heaven.

We do know that at his appearing, on a horse, leading an army... he destroys those gathered at Meggido, and all those who have received the mark are also destroyed.

so when those who took the mark are removed... What is left? Those who believed before the rapture, and those who believed when they witnessed the rapture, and had not received the mark.

Another prophetic picture to consider is this... more than one harvest... The harvest that occurs at the feast of trumpets is the barley harvest. The wheat harvest follows after the barley harvest by about 7-10 days from what I understand/remember. and of course the time, between the feast of trumpets and day of atonement is??? 10 days.
2 days for trumpets+7 days between+1 day of atonement.... interesting isn't it?
Maybe we are the barley, and the "survivors" who aren't tares, are the wheat... hmmm... that has me thinking...

by **bchandler** on Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:49 pm

I also think that it is important to note that we see in revelation 14 that it is Jesus who does the reaping, and the angels who harvest and gather the grapes of wrath.

So... Once again... we have to ask another question... Is it possible that these two events are so practically simultaneous that the order is not significant, and for that reason we see an order that looks potentially different in one place, than is described in an other?

Most of us when communicating simultaneous events, would simply select an order to narrate the events in, and the order listed would not necessarily be of any significance.

We see this with Jesus statement regarding the separation of the tares and wheat. We see the order go out to gather the tares for burning (it doesn't say they are burnt yet... just gathered to be burnt), and it is immediately followed by an order to gather the wheat into his barn (a place of protection, as no one is going to set fire to the barn). Seems to me that we see two orders executed by the Lord at approximately the same time. So I have a tendency to see these events as simultaneous, even though there is an order within which the orders are given.

by **bchandler** on Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:11 pm

(Rev 16:15 ASV)
(Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.)

(Rev 16:15 ESV)
("Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!")

(Rev 16:15 Geneva)
( Beholde, I come as a theefe. Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, least hee walke naked, and men see his filthines)

(Rev 16:15 KJV)
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

To a previous point, 3 out of 4 translations have marked rev 16:15 as parenthetical as previously noted. Only the Geneva bible was a completely separate work from the King James, and was completed many years before the King James bible. In fact the King James bible was created in order to outlaw the Geneva bible, with its commentaries that challenged the divine right of kings to rule.

by **Seeker** on Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:43 am

Hi bchandler,

At the harvest Jesus is seen in the clouds, on his throne, harvesting the earth... Not riding on a horse at the head of his armies.

Yes but the harvest is after Armageddon.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

When Jesus comes in glory with all His holy angels then shall He sit upon the throne and separate the sheep from the goats will on His throne. Jesus arrives in flaming fire.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

These two are the same event because they both mention Jesus being revealed/coming in glory with His angels. In 2 Th 1 we see the arrival. Jesus dispences God's final wrath upon arrival then sits down to judge the nations from the throne. The throne is after He begins to "reign". He reigns from the throne.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

This is what people don't realize or accept. Jesus is shown arriving in wrath to execute judgment upon all.

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Armageddon here in Zephaniah 3.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

The day of the Lord is the same as the day Jesus returns.

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

...who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing...He judges the living and dead at His appearing. The OT and NT are exactly consistant in their descriptions of the return of Christ/DOTL. The AC is destroyed by the brightness of His coming or upon His arrival. I agree with you that these events are likely going to be rapid fire in close succession. But to remain true to scripture my scenario has to make a provision for the tares to go first. And from all the scriptures I keep digging up that view is supported. The destruction on the DOTL is the primary focus of the OT it seems. The saving grace of Christ is the focus on the NT DOTL. Destruction and saving grace in one harvest with the destruction the first order of business. If it were just a couple of cases I wouldn't be able to be so certain. But literally almost every scripture I find on the subject appears to support the tares going first. I am not particularly excited about being here through the whole show but I can't skew scriptures to make them say otherwise. A simple straight forward reading of scripture backs Post-Wrath. Believe me I have listed a ton of them in this thread. It is simple Jesus returns once, knocks out evil, and then gathers us. Just as the days of Noah we are witnesses of the wrath but not subject to it.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Seeker** on Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:21 am

Hi bchandler,

We see this with Jesus statement regarding the separation of the tares and wheat. We see the order go out to gather the tares for burning (it doesn't say they are burnt yet... just gathered to be burnt),

This is why it is important to understand that Jesus gives us a parable but He also gives us the interpretation of that parable.

Parable

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Interpretation

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Below I have grabbed the parable section dealing with the bundles to burn and grouped that with the interpretation section of the bundles to be burnt. Jesus explains what everything means in the interpretation so we don't have to guess or speculate.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

As the tares are gathered "and" burned in the fire. So will it be at the end of the world.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Above is the actual gathering and tossing in the fire from the interpretation Jesus gives us. That is why it is important to adhere strictly to the text in the interpretation and having an open mind of course. Many will never see what I am saying simply because they cannot accept that Jesus arrives to destroy evil from the earth and then gather us. The tares are not only gathered but also burnt at that time as the interpretation clearly shows.

Peace,
Seeker

by **bchandler** on Fri Jan 14, 2011 12:00 pm

Seeker,

I hate to say it, but nothing you have posted has contradicted my interpretation of scripture... except that the harvest is after Armageddon.

Keeping an open mind about this... i see that there is room for both interpretations... i just happen to believe that what i believe has been specifically shown to me by the Holy Spirit. Both in teachings, dreams, and one event one might call a vision. I can not be disobedience to such divine guidance and so will simply agree to disagree with you.

The really important things that we should take away from this discussion are these... we are gonna be here for some really bad stuff, and we need to be prepared to endure the night, without the need to buy and sell (because we wont be able to).

As for the harvest being after Armageddon... you have a real problem with order as it is shown in revelation 14. You might make the argument that the harvest/gathering of the grapes of wrath begins at the same time as the rapture/harvest. Or even if the Gathering started first, the rapture would be completed in minutes if not mere seconds, while the gathering of the nations armies to meggiddo would take days. Again... the FACT that scripture seems to contradict itself regarding the order of events means 1 or 2 possible things:

It may even be possible for both things to be true.

In addition we must always keep in mind that it is the angels who gather tares... at the rapture described in thessalonians, and in revelation, it is Jesus himself who comes to receive his own, and we are "caught up" to meet him... no record of angels taking us to him... We are miraculously transformed, and then we go to be with him.

When are the unrighteous gathered? Well, we see that they are gathered at armageddon, but revelation shows that they are gathered by demonic spirits. After the rapture, and AFTER the battle at meggiddo, is when Jesus takes up David's throne, so the judgment of the sheep and the goats takes place at this time... apparently... and who is it that separates the sheep from the goats? It says Jesus does. hmmm...

I agree with you that Jesus comes once... But that coming may have 2-3 parts... a rapture where we are caught up to be with him, and he is seen coming in the clouds, and according to revelation enthroned on his throne (so the first time the world sees him he is seen as a sitting ruler... We meet him, i believe scripture says we meet him in the air... not that we are gathered to him at jerusalem... so that is a bit of an issue. Where we go after that, the scripture does not say, somewhere here on earth or heaven. We next see him leading an army of the saints... on horseback... coming to conquer, rule, and reign.... so apparently he goes to Meggiddo, destroys the armies of the nations gathered there, then goes on to the mount of olives, apparently dismounting his horse at some point, and when his foot touches the mount of olives there is a great quake that splits the mountain in two and creates and reopens the kings gate. He proceeds through this gate to take up David's throne.

So we see 3 different pictures of his arrival. One enthroned and in the clouds as he promised his disciples. One on horseback as the conquering king at the head of a vast army of US, his saints. One as a coming king to be coronated, and take up his earthly kingdom by re-establishing and taking up David's throne.

So which coming is the one coming? Answer, they all are! We simply are not shown the bits or timing in between these three sub-events which are part of one BIG event.

I also think that it is important to explore something rational here. What event is it that triggers those who worship the beast to gather at Meggiddo?

Hypothetically, If the world has just witnessed the catching away of the saints (to where other than to be with him we do not know)... They all know for dead certain (pun intended) they have picked the devil's side. I suspect that they all knew this before now, but now it is beyond certainty, and they know that his next move will be to take the city of Jerusalem and establish his earthly kingdom.

Hmmmm.... Where can they stage all the armies of all the nations in preparation for an attack upon Jerusalem in order to prevent his victory? The very last place they can stop him (in their own minds) would be to prevent his coronation, or destroy him immediately thereafter. So they gather at meggiddo in order to ambush him.

Of course Jesus is not fooled, he takes his bride aside for her consummation (our oneness with him), allowing the gathering at meggiddo to be completed, and when he comes forth from the bridal chamber, the first thing he does is deal with the gathered traitors to both God and humanity at meggiddo.

From this victorious battle he goes to the mount of olives, reopens the kings gate, and re-enters the city AS KING.

I find it Ironic that the sealing of the kings gate and the placement of the muslim grave yard in front of the gate is precisely what causes the necessity of the earthquake that creates the valley by which he enters the kings gate.

In attempting to thwart prophecy, the muslims actually created the conditions needed which require Jesus to perform the prophetic events that will be fulfilled upon that day. (just an interesting aside).

Once enthroned the judgment of the living and the dead begin. This I believe is the BEMA seat judgment of Christ, where the sheep and goats are separated. The only dead that are judged at this time, from what i was taught, are the saints... those who were part of the first resurrection. The rest of the dead are not judged for 1000 years, until the GWT judgment at the end of this world.

I still think the key to understanding the tare harvest is going to be understanding where (and how) to distinguish between the "end of the age" events, and the "end of the world" events.

by **Seeker** on Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:55 am

Hi bchandler,

My view is so much simpler just read the words and believe they mean exactly what they say.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Peace,
Seeker

by **bchandler** on Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:26 pm

I do... I just think they say something different than you do.

by **Mrs. B** on Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:42 pm

Post-Wrath.....

Rev. 12:14.....And to the woman were given two wings of a Great Eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness....Unto Her Place,
where she is NOURISHED FOR A TIME, AND TIMES AND HALF A TIME....FROM THE FACE OF THE SERPENT...

Exodus 19:4....Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I BARE YOU ON EAGLES WINGS, AND BROUGHT YOU UNTO MYSELF....

5....NOW THEREFORE, If you will obey My Voice Indeed, and keep MY COVENANT...THEN YE SHALL BE A PECULIAR TREASURE UNTO ME ABOVE ALL PEOPLE: FOR ALL THE EARTH IS MINE:

(We the church have The New Covenant....The Blood Covenant of Jesus.....The New Birth....Born Again of God)

6....And Ye shall be unto me a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, AND AN HOLY NATION....
These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.......

4.......Ye have seen what I did unto Egyptians, and HOW I bare You on Eagles' wings, and brought you unto Myself.....

Deut. 32:11.....As an Eagle Stirreth up her nest, Fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad Her Wings, Taketh them....BEARETH THEM ON HER WINGS:

12....SO The Lord Alone did lead Him, and there WAS NO Strange god with him....

13....He made him ride on the High Places of the Earth, that he might Eat the increase of the fields;
and he made him to suck honey out of the rock...and oil out of the flinty rock:

BUT
16....They provoked him to Jealousy with STRANGE GODS...WITH ABOMINATIONS PROVOKED THEY HIM TO ANGER...

17....THEY SACRIFICED UNTO DEVILS, NOT TO GOD;
TO GODS WHOM THEY KNEW NOT, TO NEW GODS THAT CAME NEWLY UP,
WHOM YOUR FATHERS FEARED NOT...

18....OF THE ROCK THAT BEGAT THEE THOU ART UNMINDFUL, AND HAST FOR GOTTEN GOD THAT FORMED THEE...

19....And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them,

20...And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be:
for they are a froward generation, Children IN WHOM IS NO FAITH.....

36....FOR THE LORD SHALL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE, AND REPENT HIMSELF FOR HIS SERVANTS, WHEN HE SEETH THAT THEIR POWER IS GONE...... and there is none Shut up, or left...

Isaiah 63:9...In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence Saved them, In His Love and in his pity he redeemed them;
and HE BARE THEM, AND CARRIED THEM ALL THE DAYS OF OLD...

10.....But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit:
Therefore he was Turned to Be their Enemy, and he fought against them....

Luke 17:34...I tell you in that night there shall be two men in one bed;
the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left...

37...And they answered and said unto him...Where, Lord?
And he said unto them, Wheresover the body is....thither WILL THE EAGLES BE GATHERED TOGETHER...

Matt. 24:For wheresoever the carcase is...there will the Eagles be gathered together....

Rev. 12:5...and she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His Trhone...

6...And the Woman Fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should Feed Her there...A thousand two hundred and threescore days.....1230 Days

Luke 17:37b...Wheresoever the body is thither will the eagles be gathered together....

Rev. 12:14...And to the women were given two wings of a Great Eagle....
Ex. 19:4...For ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians and How I BARE You on Eagles Wings and Brought you unto Myself...
NOW Therefore if you will obey MY Voice and Keep My Covenant...Then ye shall be a Peculiar Treasure unto Me Above All People...
For al the Earth is Mine....GLoRY...

Rev. 12:14...And to the woman were given Two Wings of a Great Eagle..that she might fly into the wilderness...unto Her place...
Where She is Nourished for a Time, and Times and half a Time...From the Face of the Serpent...

There will be a people who will be caught up and Nourished by God Himself.....
and escape the wrath......Is. 63:910b...But they rebelled and vexed His Holy spirit:
therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.....
The Faithful and the unfaithrul...

Mrs. B

.

by **watching** on Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:27 am

Great post, Mrs. B!

by **Seeker** on Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:02 am

Hi Mrs. B,

There will be a people who will be caught up and Nourished by God Himself.....
and escape the wrath......Is. 63:910b

Yes Mrs. B there will be but they won't leave the earth to escape the wrath.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Is it too much for the God who created the very universe to protect His people from His wrath?

Exo 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
Exo 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Both Jews and Egyptians experienced the wrath of God on that night. One was subject to it and one was not but both were present. Isaiah 26 references the resurrection in 26:19 giving us the timing for the passage. The earth shall cast out the dead followed by come my people enter thou into thy chambers while the indignation passes over. They aren't swooped up they go into their chambers. They are a separate group than the resurrected dead in the verse above. The dead in Christ rise first then we which are alive and remain. Those alive and remaining are told to enter into their chambers while the Lord punishes the inhabitants of earth for their iniquity. The dead in Christ will God bring with Him then we who remain are protected from the wrath as it removes iniquity from the earth. To suppose that we are raptured up away from the earth is what pre-trib proposes and pre-wrath suffers the same short fall. The saints returning with Jesus are the dead in Christ not those on earth alive.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

See here we have both groups present when Jesus is arriving to take vengence on the ungodly which would be the time of the wrath of God. Notice the saints are there also not off in heaven somewhere.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Two groups shown in 1Th 5 those who sudden destruction overtakes that day and those that are not in the dark that that day should not overtake them. Again both groups present there nobody wisked off to heaven yet. The ones not appointed to wrath are those that aren't in the dark on the day evil is destroyed.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Two groups, all the tribes of earth mourning and the elect gathered. There is no wisking away of the saints here either.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Here not only are the two groups again but in addition we have a specific order stated. Let both grow together until the harvest and tell the angels to gather the tares first. First means first.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It is only possible to sever the unjust from the just if the just are present. The just have to be there for the unjust to be removed from among the group of just. When you gather the unjust out of the group just, only the just remain. The just never went anywhere the unjust did. Just as the days of Noah.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

It was the same for Noah and Lot. The same day Noah entered the ark and Lot left Sodom the sinners were destroyed. Neither of these men left the earth just like the Israeli's in Egypt, they all stayed on earth. The ones that left and were taken were the sinners. The sinners were removed not God's people. God's people were present through the wrath but not affected by it. Jesus tells us His return will be exactly like it was in Noah's day. Nowhere in the story of Lot or Noah were God's people removed from His wrath they endured through it just as Isaiah 26 presents. We will be present to witness it the bible says it plainly and clearly.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:04 am

watching wrote:Great post, Mrs. B!

by **Mrs. B** on Sun Jan 16, 2011 2:43 pm

Postl-Wrath

Seeker.....I agree

The children were taken into the wilderness.....where they were nourished.....and God supernaturaly feed them and met all their needs......

I believe the word nourished......is fed or nourished spiritual food......
Just like God gave Moses the Ten Commandments and the construction of the Temple.....
which was a school master to bring us to Christ.....

I believe if we are going to Rule and Reign with Christ for a Thousand years...
There will be those that are accounted worthy to escape the Judgment.......and during this time
Time, and Times and half.......or 1260 days will be fed Spiritual Food..

Now......rather this is in the heavens, or sky or some place in the sky or
some place on this earth......This will not be in the New Heavens......but Caught into the wilderness...

Rev. 12:14....And to the woman were given two wings of a Great Eagle that she might fly into the Wilderness....
UNTO HER PLACE.....Wher she is Nourished for a Time, and Times and a Half a Time...From the Face of the Serpent....

These.....to me.......are those who have made themselves ready.......Those that are Called out....to Follow Jesus
to be obedient to HIM......Not church doctrine, membership, fellowship or followers of false teachers, or leaders...
But those that Have Seperated themselves to Follow Jesus....and His doctrines and His Holy Spirit....

This saperates the Just from the unjust......
Wise Virgins and Foolish Virgins

It is possible that we will be on this earth in some wilderness place......
....where we will be fed or nourished.....

Rev. 12:11....And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the Word of Their Testimony;
and they loved not their lives unto the death...

12....Therefore rejoice ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them...
WOE to the inhabiters of the Earth and of the Sea!
for the devil is come down unto you, having Great Wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.....

(a short time....1260 days??)
13....And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the Earth,
he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man ..child....

14....And to the woman were given two wings of a Great Eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and a half a time...from the face of the serpent...

15....And the serpent cast out of HIS MOUTH Water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood...

16....And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth...
and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth...

17...And the Dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the Remnant of Her Seed...
Which keep the commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ....

This could be when the Jew as a Nation are saved.......They Keep the Commandments of God....and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ...
This could be the Short Work Paul writes about in Romans.......The short work God does with the Jews.......

Mrs. B

by **Seeker** on Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:50 pm

Hi Mrs. B,

Seeker.....I agree

Sorry sometimes it is hard for me to understand exactly what you mean since you usually post scripture alone. Now that you explain it I see more of where you are coming from. Being caught up to God threw me off as pre-trib and pre-wrath both claim that to be the case. It is that specific issue that separates post-wrath from the rest. Good scriptures by the way thanks.

Peace,
Seeker

by **bchandler** on Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:56 pm

Seeker,

I think you and I are so close to agreement about most things regarding the end of the age, and the end of the world.

I would appreciate some clarification upon your part.

How do you distinguish which statements Jesus made that refer to the end of the world, versus the end of the age/beginning of the millennium?

If you can clarify how we distinguish this when looking at What Jesus said about the tares, I think it would help me to understand your interpretation. My issue is that from the bible dictionary definition that you posted, it could be translated both ways. Is there a grammatical distinction that allowed clear communication with his audience? Or is it deliberately vague and/or dualistic?

Unfortunately I do not know enough about Greek sentence structure to know if there is a grammatical nuance that will shed light on the issue.

Thanks in advance for your response.

by **Seeker** on Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:41 am

Hi bchandler,

I think you and I are so close to agreement about most things regarding the end of the age, and the end of the world.

I would appreciate some clarification upon your part.

How do you distinguish which statements Jesus made that refer to the end of the world, versus the end of the age/beginning of the millennium?

Yes we are close and no problem we will walk throught the scriptures and examine the "end of the world". You may then compare that to the "end of the age" as you see it because I don't find any reference in scripture to the "end of the age". I do find references to the "end of the world" though. So let us let scripture show us what the end of the world means.

Isa 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
Isa 62:12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

The end of the world is mentioned with Israel's salvation they will be the redeemed of the Lord. The salvation is Jesus so what we see here is a picture of Jesus arriving to redeem Israel at the end of the world.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The disciples here link the sign of His coming to the "end of the world". They link the return of Jesus to the end of the world as does Isaiah 62. That makes the story in Matthew 24 the story of the end of the world. That allows us to take the cosmic signs in Matthew 24 and associate them with the end of the world. So when we see the cosmic signs it is talking about the end of the world/return of Jesus. Then we can connect the OT cosmic sign occurances (Isaiah 13, 34, Joel 2-3) and link them to the end of the world/return of Jesus. That connects the day of the Lord, Joel 2-3 to the return of Jesus/end of the world. Then we can take all the details in the newly connected scriptures and connect those details to other OT/NT scripture.

Besides the two examples above we have the two occurances in Matt 13 as well. They both indicate they occur at the time the Lord returns also. Literally every prophet in the bible wrote about the day of the Lord/return of Jesus/ end of the world. The OT and NT describe the same event as they should. All the little details fit perfectly when viewed from the post-wrath perspective. Jesus returns once torching evil along the way and then gathers those left standing.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Zec 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Zec 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Peace,
Seeker

by **jgilberAZ** on Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:01 am

I looked up the Greek for Matthew 24:3

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G165&t=KJV

The word used for "world," has the following definition:

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

So, it looks like it could be translated world or age.

But, if you scroll down, and see how it's used elsewhere, it's almost always translated "world" or "ever" as in (forever).

Interesting ...

by **Mrs. B** on Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:10 pm

Post-Wrath.....

End of the World.....

This is just a commit....

Time as we know it is????
a time period......like we are born, we live, and we die.....it is for a period of time

But with God......there is no time....

So the end of the world would be when time ends........?

When we are born again......we will never die......but our bodies die and decay.......the end

So......the world at the end of time......will be burned up.....and end

Then the New Heavens and the New Earth.......Time without end....
So I believe we are living in a Time Zone

Like.....In the beginning God Created
God always was and always will be......and always remains the same....with Him there is NO Time..
But with man we live in a time zone......but there is coming a time when there is no more time.....OK?
The world as we know today is entering a 7 thousand years..........the last one thousand of 6 thousand years...
at the end of the thousand...the seven thousand......I believe will be the end of this world......
We still have a thousand years to rule and reign with Jesus......then The New Heavens and the New Earth...

Mrs. B

by **Seeker** on Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:49 pm

Hi jgilberAZ,

If we disregard the tares for a bit and focus on the wheat it may be easier for you and others to see. In both Matthew 13 and 24 we have the saints harvested.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

How many times do the saints get harvested? It is the harvest of the saints that link all these events together. In both chapters they are harvested at the end of the world. Does that make sense with other scripture describing the resurrection? Here's when Jesus says the resurrection will be.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Jesus says the resurrection is at the last day. Sounds like that would happen at the end of the world. Last day=end of the world makes sense. Since the resurrection is on the last day we can look to scripture containing the resurrection to know when the last day is.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is after Armageddon and has those who refused the MOB as part of their group. This timestamps the resurrection to after the reign of the AC. Rev 20 follows the destruction of the AC in Rev 19. So we see the "last day" follows Armageddon but before the 1,000 year millennium. The harvest of the saints sets the timing of everything. Since the tares are harvested at the same harvest but "first" they go before the wheat or at Armageddon before the wheat harvest in Rev 20. It all fits nicely in the proper order regardless of what direction we approach it.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Mrs. B** on Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:04 am

Post-Wrath......

I am not very good with my own words.........but this is how I see

Matt. 13 the whole chapter is about the KINGDOM of GOD
Matt.13:9....Who hath ears to hear, let him hear...
11b....it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the KIngdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given...
(to the unbelievers....they can not see)
13....Therefore speak I to them in parables:
because they seeing see not: and hearing they hear not,
neither do they Understand....

OK.....In Daniel God showed to Daniel that he was going to set up a Kingdom...
A kingdom that would have no end......an everlasting Kingdom...

When Jesus came...
John 3...
Jesus said...You Must be Born Again...
You must be born of the water and of the Spirit
Except a man is Born Again......He cannot see the Kingdom of God..
The Kingdom of God is in You....
That which is flesh is flesh.....(it is not a fleshly Kingdom)
and that which is Spirit is Spirit
Marvel not that I say unto you.....You Must Be Born Again....

This is the Kingdom Daniel saw..
and Jesus came Preaching....The Kingdom of God is at hand..
God sent His Holy Spirit.......which Adam lost when He sinned.
But NOW Jesus has paid our sin debt..
and all that come to Him.....Must Be Born Again...
Our Father which art in Heaven....Hollowed be thy Name...
THY KINGDOM COME....THEY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH...
AS IT IS IN HEAVEN...

This is the Will of God....

Mrs. B

by **Mrs. B** on Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:33 am

Post Wrath....

God created the heavens and the earth....in six days

on the seventh days he Rested...

I believe that we are in the 6th thousand years......
and we are at the Door When Jesus is going to return
and set up His Kingdom on this Earth....

We have had the Passover....Jesus is the Passover Lamb
He came just like Daniel prophecied....
We have had two thousand years of sowing and reaping...
We are now at the Harvest Time....The end of this World...
When the Wicked will be burn up.....or the tares
God Judged the World in Noe's day by the Flood..
This end time Judgment will be by Fire...

We are first baptized in water......then with Fire
The Fire of the Holy Spirit
The Word and the Holy Spirit does a cleansing work in us...

I believe we are at the door of the last Seven thousand years.

God's Sabbath
the last thousand years.....
The Kingdom of God will be Established on this earth.
The ungodly will be taken out
There will be the First Ressurrection.....
All those who by Faith looked Forward to Jesus he is the Promise Seed..
From Adam to John the Baptist......that died in Faith
and Now we that Are Born Again will be on the Earth during the Kingdom of God...
We will be in Our New Bodies....
and those that Servive World Judgment will replinish the Earth.....

Zechariah 14:16......And it shall come to pass....that every one that is left of all the Nations
which came against Jerusalem...
shall even go up from year to year to Worship the KING, THE LORD OF HOSTS,
and Keep the Feast of Tabernacles...

17....And it shall be , that whoso will not come up of all the families of the Earth unto Jerusalem
to worship the King, the Lord of Hosts, Even upon them shall be no rain...

20....In that day shall there be upon the BELLS OF THE HORSES...
HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD.....
and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar....

This is the Millimum reign....
Now we that are born again.....and are in the First Ressurrection
will be in Our New Bodies...

Jesus after His Ressurection could assend into Heaven in His New Body ....So I believe we to
will have access to the Throne of God....in Heaven....in our New Bodies..
We can Surround His Throne.......and Worship and Praise Him......

I believe the wicked will be taken out...Now who is the wicked?
Is it the unwise virgins??....those who have taken the Name of Jesus but follow the a/c instead of Jesus?
and the Righous? are the Obedient?
The Ungodly will be destroyed with fire...
But we the Righteous will be caught up in Eagle Wings and Kept.....
and Nourished.....from the evil to come.....
Then we will return with Jesus and Rule and Reign on this earth for a Thousand Years.....
we will be in the First Resurrection....

Mrs. B

by **Seeker** on Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:35 pm

Hi Mrs. B,

I think you did real good with your words actually. I agree with pretty much everything you have written. Got a question about the 7,000 year theory. I can see the 1,000 year millennium as the last 1,000 years or the sabbath 1,000. I was thinking that on the Jewish calendar it is 5771. How does that fit into your view?

I have a different take on Rev 12 than most do because I feel Satan has already been cast out of heaven making Rev 12 past fulfillment.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

So I don't see the saints protected during the last 3 1/2 years but rather the last 3 1/2 years are the most intense persecution the church will ever face at the hands of the AC.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The saints are persecuted until the Ancient of days came and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. The AC's reign is 3 1/2 years starting at the AOD in the middle of the last 7 years.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The saints are persecuted during the entire 42 month reign of the AC. Jesus returns at Armageddon destroying the AC and company ending the persecution of the saints. That gets us all the way up to the end of the last 7 years and return of Jesus. Everyone (saint) that makes it through the tribulation will go through the refiners fire. 2 out of 3 are sinners and destroyed by the fire/wrath.

Zec 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

I think God protects the 1/3 who go through the fire very much like when Daniel and his friends were thrown into the fire and protected.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

But those are small differences overall we see things very similar.

Peace,
Seeker

by **Mrs. B** on Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:30 pm

Post -Wrath

I see that the True Christians have been persecuted from the very beginning of the Church age....

Satan coming down knowing that he hath but a short time.....

I believe God allows us to go through Tribulation.....or Troubles to cause us to Grow and to draw nearer to Him...

The Little horn is to
Wear out the saints of the most high....blow after blow....This causes us to use our Faith....
It causes us to seek the Lord and His leadership in our lives.....
If everything goes well, we do not learn to live by Faith.......we do not need God....we can do it ourselves...

It is God's will that we suffer to cause us to Grow in Faith.....without faith it is impossible to please Him....
we learn obedience by the things we suffer....

Daniel 8:13b.....How long shall be the vision concerning the Daily Sacrifice and the Transgression of Desolation???

In Matt. 24:15....Jesus said when you see the Abomination of Desolation....stand in the Holy Place...spoken of by
Daniel the Prophet....let him that readth understand....then get out of Jerusalem....

I believe this is the Beginning of the last 7 years......or 2300 days

I believe that this is when....or because our sins are full.....and the believers will be tried, and tested.....and purified and made white......tried with fire....
We have to learn to Stand.......and indure afflication......

I believe that Christians in other nations are suffering NOW.....But the American Church is not hot or cold but luke warm and Not ready for Jesus Return....So God allows Tribulations.....to cause us to draw near to Him...

Mrs. B