origin of evil

[Keeping Alert]

The issue of free-will has been brought up quite a lot of times here. It is much deeper than one can assume it to be but let me try to put a different twist to it.

The issue is NOT with free-will... the issue is with God creating a FINITE being. A finite being with free-will is bound to sin sooner or later. Abiding said that someone said that God set us up to fail. I would not put it such words but the idea is similar... God KNEW that by creating a finite being, and giving him freedom to obey or disobey, the finite being would disobey eventually.

And that is why the bible says that Christ was sacrificed before the foundation of the world... once God decided to create, He knew He had to sacrifice His Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ...

Let us consider the candle. For a candle to give light, all that needs to be done is to be litted. But for it to go dark, nothing needs to be done. As soon as the candle burns itself out, light is gone. Why? Simply because the candle is FINITE.

Adam was give free-will (and so was Lucifer). They were holy and perfect but being finite, they could not retain the superiority of God and His goodness before them always. They saw the goodness of whatever was before them and they forgot God... It was a matter of time...

So did God create evil? Nope, He did not. Or rather, He did not have to... Did evil coexist with God from the beginning? Hope, it did not because

In the beginning, God...

Blessings,
KA

[amessenger4god]

Keeping Alert: My thoughts, exactly. Your point demonstrates both 1) how God could plan a course of history that included evil, and 2) how evil CANNOT come from God.

Resurrection Torchlight: I will say it a million times: Evil IS NOT coexistent with God. God DID NOT create evil. If you believe evil was coexistent with God, then you will find the false religions of Taoism and Hinduism more suitable for your beliefs, since they teach that. I apologize for sounding so harsh, but, again, suggesting evil came from God (or) was coexistent with God is borderline (if not outright) blasphemy (ala Mark 3:29-30; Luke 12:10).

There is One, and Only One, who is self-existent and from eternity: YHWH--"I AM that I AM"--"...that is MY NAME from ALL generations."

Brandon: I agree that the freedom we have in Christ is not libertarian freedom. We probably agree on the issue of free will more than you might think. The issue is not free will vs no free will. The issue is what type of free will do you subscribe to. There are two different theories: libertarian free will and compatiblist free will. I subscribe more to compatibilism, which you might also agree with:

http://www.theopedia.com/Libertarian_free_will

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I apologize for sounding so harsh, but, again, suggesting evil came from God (or) was coexistent with God is borderline (if not outright) blasphemy (ala Mark 3:29-30; Luke 12:10).

OUCHY !

To be fair- I said it was all just a theory on my part, and there are others much loftier than I who have this view- though I concede that rather than evil itself existing in its own right it may well be that it is instead the potential for evil that existed with the creation of free will beings, and their rebellion is what brought forth evil into existence, I admit that this is a good possible explanation.

Also what I am proposing has nothing to do with the passages that you quoted, I am not blaspheming God or the Holy Spirit. I for one do not believe that God created evil, but rather that it possibly coexists as the opposite of what God is. Genesis tells us that the Triune Godhead knew good and evil. God was acquainted with evil, He knew of its existence.

Genesis 3:22
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

As I said before God is all knowing, so He knew of evil for all eternity, He knew what would happen before it happened, though the act of evil itself did not happen until Lucifer rebelled and took with him 1/3 of the angels. Yet God knew of its potential. The only one who did not cave to the potential for evil is Jesus Christ who died so that we- those creatures with free will, can choose life rather than death. So we could overcome evil through His atoning sacrifice.

Here's a question- if God created beings with a free will, then did God create the potential for evil?

If evil proceeds from the free will choice of beings created by God, then the one who created them with that choice could then be said to have at least created the potential for evil- correct? This is why I theorize that evil exists alongside God, it exists because God exists, otherwise God has to be its creator, either out-rightly or by default because He created us with free will.


RT

PS- can we please not let this debate fall into the TULIP argument- stick to the topic please

[Abiding in His Word]

Hello RT,

I was going to post a recent thought I had concerning this topic, but your P.S. stopped me..... May I ask what a TULIP is so I don't go there?

[Shelby]

A finite being with free-will is bound to sin sooner or later. Abiding said that someone said that God set us up to fail. I would not put it such words but the idea is similar... God KNEW that by creating a finite being, and giving him freedom to obey or disobey, the finite being would disobey eventually.
KA

That is how I see it too.

[jgilberAZ]

TULIP = five points of calvinism

Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

And, I agree ... let's not go there in this thread ... there are several other threads for that specific purpose.

- Jeff

[Douggg]

Keeping Alert: My thoughts, exactly. Your point demonstrates both 1) how God could plan a course of history that included evil, and 2) how evil CANNOT come from God.

Resurrection Torchlight: I will say it a million times: Evil IS NOT coexistent with God. God DID NOT create evil. If you believe evil was coexistent with God, then you will find the false religions of Taoism and Hinduism more suitable for your beliefs, since they teach that. I apologize for sounding so harsh, but, again, suggesting evil came from God (or) was coexistent with God is borderline (if not outright) blasphemy (ala Mark 3:29-30; Luke 12:10).

Well, certainly evil did not exist before iniquity was found in Satan. Who the origin of sin and evil begins with him, as well as all the suffering of the world can be attributed directly to him.

There is a verse in the ot Isaiah 45:7, however, that God says that He makes peace and "creates evil". But that verse has to be taken within context, that God in His purpose does at times bring about bad things to happen - which is not sin - but what man would consider something we would not want to happen to us. For example, the plagues God sent against Pharaoh. Those would be considered something evil - especially if one was an Egyptian. And when Israel never repented from their idol worship, God sent them into Assyrian and Babylonian captivity - which is considered a bad thing to happen, i.e. evil.

Prior to the garden of Eden episode, there is no mention of sin or evil, so we must conclude that it was not present aforehand considering the results. However the concept was certainly known to God or else He would not have issued the warning. But that does not mean that God created evil.

btw, you can add Judaism to that list, because they believe that man was created with a tendency to sin and as well as a good nature. They take that verse in Isaiah 45:7 about God creating evil as being absolute as part of the original creation.

Regarding Satan as the origin of sin and evil, one of my personal conclusions is that God showed no expression of doing something that would be considered negative before Satan (by free will) chose to want to be worshiped like God. imo, what Satan may have thought was that God was incapable of doing anything other than good - since that is all Satan observed up until the time of his rebellion. I don't think Satan ever thought that he would have creative abilities like God, but Satan's ploy was to use a "could do goodness only" God to do whatever he wanted Him to do. Satan knew of God's great loving kindness nature. But either as an insurance policy or that Satan found out otherwise and mis-read God, I think Satan in getting man to sin was that man would become a hostage... such that God could not destroy Satan without destroying man as well....since mankind after the fall would be guilty of sin as well... therefore deserving of the same punishment as Satan.

When Jesus died and resurrected, providing a way to free mankind from the power of sin - which also we being captives to sin - was catastrophic for Satan because no longer would his accusations against us hold. Which also meant that God could justly not destroy us because of our sin - which Jesus removed the guilt thereof from us - but Satan is left totally guilty of all his sins, by which God can now destroy him without destroying mankind (those who have received Jesus as Savior) as well. We are no longer Satan's hostages.

In 1Corinthinans2:7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Satan and the demons participated in getting Jesus crucified because they thought that the messiah's purpose was solely to restore Israel to its former glory and become king of the world. Thus, by Jesus being crucified, they thought they had thwarted God's plans. What they did not know that God was going to free man from the power of sin. Which has eternal damnation consequences for Satan - who thought he had mankind in his hip pocket as his hostages to keep God from executing final judgment on him.

Satan's plan B is to destroy the Jews and Israel. Then having tried that the past 2000 years, and still not having given up, at the end of the great tribulation, in a desperation move in Plan C, Satan will try to war against Jesus to stop him from returning.

Doug L.

[brandon]

One final clarification:

-Evil did not co-exist with God prior to creation. It is included as part of His plan for the summing up of all things in Christ. It's not eternally co-existent, as some have asserted this position to be saying.

-Satan's corruption and man's fall were determined beforehand by God's sovereign will (His decreed will). God is just to create whatever He wants from His creation, including some for destruction.

-Evil is temporary, and came into existence through Satan, who is the principle agent of evil in this present creation. However, Satan's pride that led to his fall was predetermined by God Himself, which is why I state that the origin of evil is God, more specifically in His plan for creation.

-God, because He is all-righteous, is righteous to hold those accountable who commit evil, even though it has been willed into existence by God Himself.

God's stated purpose for evil is so that creation would be held in bondage to corruption in hope for the salvation of creation through Christ, and the revealing of His elect. (Romans 8) Some still hold to the mistaken belief that we are trying to get back to the garden of Eden. What God chosen to do with this creation is to birth something far superior to it out of its corruption. Christ will be fully revealed in His glory. Christ the Son, once all Spirit, took on flesh and will be preeminent in all things. That is why mankind fell in the garden, and as a result of that fall the Son is to be fully revealed in all things, the cornerstone of the temple of the Father, the great High Priest of God's elect, the lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world - for He is worthy! Christ would not have been revealed the way that He will soon be and has been. How can God the Son, who is so far above us, One with the Father, make us One with the Father unless He took on our flesh and led us to Him? How can He become our brother any other way?

The reason evil and sin exist temporarily is so that God can be glorified by the summing up of all creation in Christ. God undoubtedly hates evil, for it is against Him, but what will come as a result of evil's existence is even greater glory. In the new creation God will be all in all through Christ.

In comparison of that future glory, evil's temporary existence is as nothing. That's why Paul calls his plight "momentary light affliction." The revelation of the Son's glory is worth it all.

[Tevye]

PS- can we please not let this debate fall into the TULIP argument- stick to the topic please

Since you brought it up RT
"the topic"
really is not about "prophecy" (or the future)
so, 'wondering' why it's still in the prophecy debate area???

The "origin" of anything,
free will and so on (is about what is from the past)
one cannot prophesy about the past.
Although a prophet would be given insight into what is truth.

For what its's worth
one must get to the heart of truth
before they can find the origin of anything.
If our search for anything begins with a false view of the key basics
then our search will be in vain, and fruitless for the sake of knowing God.

Just my

[Abiding in His Word]

PS- can we please not let this debate fall into the TULIP argument- stick to the topic please

Since you brought it up RT
"the topic"
really is not about "prophecy" (or the future)
so, 'wondering' why it's still in the prophecy debate area???

Good point, Tevye. I'll move it to the Bible Study & Debate forum.

[Tevye]

My apologies if that came across as harsh.
I didn't mean for it to sound that way.
I was kinda wondering that from the begining,
begining - origin
he, he
sorry.

[Abiding in His Word]

No, it didn't sound harsh, Tevye. I thought the same thing when the thread first started but then got caught up in the content rather than the placement. It's more suitable here in its new home, I believe.

[Abiding in His Word]

Well, certainly evil did not exist before iniquity was found in Satan. Who the origin of sin and evil begins with him, as well as all the suffering of the world can be attributed directly to him.

Prior to the garden of Eden episode, there is no mention of sin or evil, so we must conclude that it was not present aforehand considering the results. However the concept was certainly known to God or else He would not have issued the warning. But that does not mean that God created evil.

I agree with this, Douggg. Here's what I believe transpired in Genesis.

Following scripture's record of creation, we find that after each step, we are told that God saw it as "good." The process of creation culminates with this verse:

Gen 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. Note: everything He made was very good. There is no hint whatever that anything in the garden was not good. However, this "very good" state of humanity suddently becomes "not good."

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

What brought about this change from good to "not good", we are not told. We should consider, however, that: (1) Adam was offered "freely" the tree of life (Gen. 2:16), but evidently did not eat of it (Gen. 3:22). We also know that Adam was to dress and keep (guard) the garden, (Gen. 2:15), but Satan later enters it.

I believe something was already changing in the disposition of Adam as he failed to protect the garden from the intrusion of satan into the environment that was previously "very good." Had this enemy been placed in the garden during the creation process, God would not have called everything "very good." Satan's entry into the unprotected area is the origin of evil.

God's mercy to Adam was forming a Godly help suitable to aid Adam. Satan attacked the very vessel designed to aid Adam recover from a deteriorating disposition. Adam's transgression was not only partaking of the forbidden tree, but in neglecting to guard and protect the garden as well and then blaming God for sending her.

.....the end. The rest is history.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Good point, Tevye. I'll move it to the Bible Study & Debate forum.

Hey No problem- I was just trying to get off the same old topics that we keep going in circles with here- I know it isn't really prophecy related, so wherever it ends up is fine by me.

RT

[amessenger4god]

Hey RT,

I think we agree after all. Clearly you're right that God had a "knowledge" of evil. I'm just emphasizing that knowledge and reality are sometimes the same thing, and sometimes not. Knowledge is just knowledge--a thought. And we can think also about the knowledge that God has about things that will never take place, such as the tree of possibilities that branches off from each of our choices. Some of the branches of possibilities will occur, others will not, depending on what we choose, but God still knows the exact outcomes of every possible choice.

[Keeping Alert]

Satan's corruption and man's fall were determined beforehand by God's sovereign will (His decreed will).

Hi Brandon,

For the sake of enlightening us, could you explain (yes, once again) why you understand that Satan's corruption and man's fall belongs to the Decretive Will of God rather than the generally understood Permissive Will of God? i.e. most believe that God permitted sin to enter into the world, rather than He decreed it into the world.

I just thought that this is one area that you could emphasize on... to build your case.

Thanks and blessings,
KA

P.S. Are you familiar with the thesis and book by Rev Timothy Tow on the Seven Fold Will of God where the Decretive WIll of God is also called the Predetermined Will of God?

[mark s]

I still can't imagine how a man, created "lower than the angels", was to prevent a cherub from entering the garden. After all, it was cherubim that were to prevent Adam from returning to the tree of life, was it not?

[brandon]

Just to clarify on the theology of how I view God's "two wills". God's revealed will is His commands - i.e. worship and love God, love your neighbor, don't lie, commit adultery, covet, etc. This is the will that creation is held to. You can also call it His "perceived will".

Then there's His decreed will - this is everything God has decided will happen. For example, prophetic declarations of scripture are not simply God's foreknowledge, they are God's decreed will. God does not simply say "I know what's going to happen." He is actually saying "This is what I am going to cause to occur."

It's important that we start there, first and foremost. What God decrees will come to pass. There are many cases in scripture that support this, directly and indirectly. Christ's crucifixion was God's plan. Judas' betrayal of Jesus was God's plan. Paul's suffering and persecution in Jerusalem was God's plan. Babylon's siege of Jerusalem was God's plan. Gog's invasion of Israel will be due to God's plan. Moses sinned against God because of God's plan (Joshua was to lead the people into the promised land. Joshua is the same Hebrew name for Jesus). Pharaoh was raised up to enslave the Hebrews according to God's plan. Joseph was sold to Egypt and imprisoned falsely for rape according to God's plan. Shall I go on? God's plan, His decreed will, will always happen. And it always happens for the good of His elect.

Acknowledging the above isn't hard to do because scripture supports it 100%. Having concluded God's control over individuals, nations, kings, and history itself, let's move to creation. Creation was very good, no question there. But that doesn't mean it was complete. The implication from the view nowadays is that God made it perfect, allowed mankind to thwart His will for that creation and ruin it (so that man's will would be "free"), and then waited thousands of years to send a savior to fix it. I see that as a disconnect from the clear testimony of scripture.

Adam disobeyed God's revealed will (His law) in the Garden, which subjected all of creation to Adam's sinful disobedience. So did God have a plan A that Adam messed up? That's the implication: God had a plan, but man's free will messed it up, so Jesus dying on the cross is plan B. Is that scriptural?

No. For we know that Jesus was the lamb slain to save those God chose before the foundation of the world. Before Creation, God wrote the names of the people He was going to redeem in the book of Life. Before man's sin. There was no plan B. This is all still plan A.

So there's just a few options left, given the truth of that which is above:

1.) God left a hole in His will. If God's will cannot be thwarted, then God must have had decreed anything to happen between His command to Adam until after Adam disobeyed. This would be a huge problem because, for a moment, God was out of control.

2.) My argument is wrong, and God's will is not sovereign over all things. He's just really, really smart and plays a better chess game than man or Satan does.

3.) God decreed before the foundation of the world that all creation would be subjected to futility and corruption through Adam's sin.

I'm sticking with option #3. Romans 8 is pretty clear about this revelation as being a positive thing, because it means that God has had a greater thing in mind for His elect the whole time than just fixing what Adam messed up. God's decree that evil should exist for a time was purposed so that God would birth out of this present creation something far better. After reading Romans 8, Ephesians 1 and 2, Colossians 1, and the entirety of prophetic scripture, it is abundantly clear that God isn't pushing the reset button. Everything that has happened, every evil tragedy and act of moral vileness done by man, has been done under the guiding hand of God's decreed will. Hence why Paul and Peter reaffirm time and time again the righteousness of Christian suffering. They don't blame Satan or demons, though those are our enemies and we desire they be crushed and defeated. They declare that God has appointed Christians to suffer. It's His plan, it's His will.

Same thing happened to Job. Job suffered due to God's will because there was a purpose for that suffering (that was God's glory in Job's faith). And that's why I stated earlier on that God is the creator of (or origin of) evil. He purposed and planned for its existence for His purposes in this present creation. His active will and decree was for Adam's fall in the Garden. And it is His active purpose to also redeem creation from Adam's sin in order to birth something entirely greater than what was originally here, where all things will be subjected to and summed up in Christ.

[amessenger4god]

I'm not sure what I think about God having a "7-fold will", but I certainly agree with the possibility of a "permissive will" and a "decreed will". It makes no logical sense that God, who is holy, could "decree" evil to happen--permitting evil seems to be the scriptural picture in my mind.

If God "decreed" evil, then it follows that:

1.) Free will does not, will not, and has not ever existed to begin with.

2.) God is the source of evil.

3.) Everything we see--every thought, decision, event, etc--is an illusion.

4.) Free will and independent intellect are not ways in which we have been created in the image of God.

It's important that we start there, first and foremost. What God decrees will come to pass.

Agreed. We all can agree with your statement. What we do disagree over, however, is how God's decrees come to pass. You are arguing that God decrees all things directly, which is not necessarily the case and is certainly not a "100%" scriptural doctrine, because if it was then this debate would have ended thousands of years ago and most Christian theologians would agree with you. But they don't. I mean, you can just go up several posts to where I posted the word search results from the Bible to see how there is a lot more to this debate than either of us realize.

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror". There is not a single doctrine, in my mind, that any of us can fully wrap our minds around. I know with absolute certainty that Jesus is God's Son, God created the world, and Jesus is coming again, but I can't fully comprehend any of it.

There are many cases in scripture that support this, directly and indirectly. Christ's crucifixion was God's plan. Judas' betrayal of Jesus was God's plan. Paul's suffering and persecution in Jerusalem was God's plan. Babylon's siege of Jerusalem was God's plan. Gog's invasion of Israel will be due to God's plan. Moses sinned against God because of God's plan (Joshua was to lead the people into the promised land. Joshua is the same Hebrew name for Jesus). Pharaoh was raised up to enslave the Hebrews according to God's plan. Joseph was sold to Egypt and imprisoned falsely for rape according to God's plan. Shall I go on? God's plan, His decreed will, will always happen. And it always happens for the good of His elect.

Not necessarily. The Bible doesn't tell us if God decreed every event, decision, and circumstance like a puppeteer, or, if God orchestrated the circumstances with such perfect care and knowledge that His plans come to pass regardless of what people choose.

In both scenarios God is sovereign over history, but in one scenario independent will is an illusion, free will doesn't exist, and God's omniscience is severely deemphasized.

Additionally, if God directly decreed everything in His creation (including our decisions), then we would be held accountable for God's decisions rather than our own, which runs contrary to a huge amount of scripture.

"When tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed." - James 1:13-14

"God 'will repay each person according to what they have done.' To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism." - Romans 2:6-11

"The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them." - Ezekiel 18:20

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." - 2 Corinthians 5:10

[Keeping Alert]

Perhaps I may offer another illustration and see how you may want to fit it into your understanding.

We see a decree by God and we think immediately in our minds that God is responsible.

That may not be the case.

For example, if the king decreed that you should come to his palace. And while on the way, you fell and broke your leg. Who is responsible for your fall? Obviously yourself because the law is not about remote circumstances but of the immediate circumstances.

Secondly, while we may see God as sovereign only when He has a direct hand in the affairs, this may not once again be the case. According to a wonderful thesis and book "Sevenfold Will of God" that I read by Rev Timothy Tow, there are seven aspects of His Will and in them all, He is Sovereign.

1) Directive Will
2) Cooperative Will
3) Desiderative Will
4) Punitive Will
5) Preceptive Will
6) Permissive Will
7) Decretive Will

I believe somewhere in understanding these, we will be able to catch a fuller picture of the matter. As amessenger4god said - God is bigger than our understanding of him and if we are only able to think that God operates in only one or two ways, then we may be missing something.

Blessings,
KA

P.

[Abiding in His Word]

1) Directive Will
2) Cooperative Will
3) Desiderative Will
4) Punitive Will
5) Preceptive Will
6) Permissive Will
7) Decretive Will

Did that thesis give scriptural examples of God's will being expressed in these ways?

[Keeping Alert]

1) Directive Will
2) Cooperative Will
3) Desiderative Will
4) Punitive Will
5) Preceptive Will
6) Permissive Will
7) Decretive Will

Did that thesis give scriptural examples of God's will being expressed in these ways?

Most definitely. He is the founder and principal at Far Eastern Bible College and has recently passed on to glory.

I am unable to give the scriptural examples unfortunately...

[brandon]

Additionally, if God directly decreed everything in His creation (including our decisions), then we would be held accountable for God's decisions rather than our own, which runs contrary to a huge amount of scripture.

Says who? God's decreed will isn't what we're held responsible for - God's perceived will/revealed will is what we are held accountable to. God told Adam not to eat of the tree and Adam disobeyed. That's the story and God wrote it, but Adam's still responsible for being disobedient. Adam's choice doesn't need to be free for him to be held responsible for it. We assume it to be true, but that's not what the Word of God says to be true.

Consider the following from Romans 9:

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist His will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Paul himself clarifies quite resoundingly that our position as creature means even though He still finds fault when none can resist His will, we don't even have the right as a creature to question it. Paul uses the analogy of the potter and the clay - some God forms for the purpose of showing His power in destroying them (Pharaoh, in Paul's example) and other He creates for the purpose of showing them mercy.

Man being in the image of God does give him a sense of consciousness, morality, intellect, reason, etc. Free will (being free from God) is assumed but the concept of anything being free from God is ridiculous. Man is not a robot or a puppet. Man is a man, but that doesn't necessarily imply that man is free from God's sovereign control. Because God is who He is, and in Him we live, move, and have our being, His power literally sustains everything on a moment by moment basis. A man's thoughts cannot even exist in the remotest sense unless God's power sustains his faculties to think.

KA, in your example an earthly king decrees that a person should come to him. That's akin to what I've described as God's revealed/perceived will, aka His commandments or law. God's decreed will is something different entirely - it's what God has stated will happen and caused to happen.

Here's the example from Daniel:

this is the interpretation, O king: It is a decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king, that you shall be driven from among men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. You shall be made to eat grass like an ox, and you shall be wet with the dew of heaven, and seven periods of time shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.

God revealed His decree to Nebuchadnezzar in a dream and Daniel interpreted it as such (a decree). Now Daniel's plea to the king to live righteously according to God's commands was the appropriate human response, but there is not a promise therein of the decree being revoked if the king changes his ways. This same heathen king seven years after the decree came to pass publicly acknowledged God's ability to do whatever He wills among heaven and earth.

There really isn't even an argument to say that God cannot have decreed evil - since whatever God does is good and just and holy simply because He is doing it, even if His will is for, say, Hurricane Katrina, His will is good, even though we consider the hurricane an evil event. In every evil action that occurs, the wicked and hopeless state of mankind is exposed and the righteousness of God exonerated and extolled. The fact that God has decreed that the action happens to show the wicked and hopeless state of mankind doesn't take away from His eternal righteousness or holiness. His holiness and righteousness is established by His position as Creator, not by His ability to do what we consider to be right. Thus God has every right to decree that evil should exist for a time to accomplish His purposes, and then He will be just as righteous to destroy it as He so desires.

He has committed to hold mankind accountable for what he does. He explained to Adam what the result of eating the tree would be. More stunning to me is that we miss the obvious - that God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to begin with. If the goal and purpose was simply to preserve what God created, then certainly the tree would not have existed. But if the goal and purpose was to save a special people for Himself for Him to be one in Christ with, that have only God's good graces and mercies to know of, then it makes perfect sense why it was there, and why God told Adam about the tree.

In understanding God as the writer of the entirety of history is a game changer in interpretation, and God's eternal purposes for Christ to be exalted can be seen. If Christ was to be exalted all along, how would this have happened had man not fallen? This is why I believe it's critical we move past looking at the "garden days" of humanity as the best there could possibly be. Paul's view of Christ, and the revelation John received clearly depicts a new creation vastly superior to anything there has ever been here. In the new kingdom, anything Adam had pre-fall will be nothing in comparison.

James' point in chapter 1 of his letter is not that God doesn't cause evil. It's dealing with the right human perspective, which is never, "God is tempting me". The sinful nature is our responsibility to control (even though it is impossible to control out without the Holy Spirit). We have no right to blame God for what He has given us responsibility for. Even though He has decreed all things, He is never the tempter Himself. The temptation comes from our own propensity to sin. Even if one knows the truth that God created him with character flaws and a sinful nature, the fact is irrelevant - God has commanded us to be responsible for ourselves and has written the basic moral commands on our hearts.

[DutchLady]

Evil is disobedience to God. All disobedience to God is evil. Evil is not somekind of entity, it's just all disobedience to God.
When some/many entities decided not to do Gods will, God judged that deed, and all the deeds following that were not according to His will, to be evil.
God created the choice, not the disobedience/evil itself.

Hi Dutchlady, I agree- evil is disobedience to God, evil does proceed from men, God did create mankind with a free will to choose to obey God. But remember the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was planted in the garden BEFORE man was created, thus the knowledge of evil existed before man had an opportunity to rebel against God. We know this is the case because Satan rebelled before man was created. No- evil is not an entity or a being, but it is something, or as Mark says the lack of something. However beings can act in evil ways as you said through disobedience. I totally agree with you.

My point however is where was darkness/evil before man was created, before the angels were created? We cannot really know for sure. My theory is that it co existed alongside God for eternity and will continue to. Free will implies a choice, if disobedience is an option, then it had to be there before these beings were created, unless God himself created disobedience/evil. In other words as you say God created the choice, but the choice between what? Between doing good or doing evil, between obedience and disobedience, if He gave men the choice, then there had to exist prior to that choice -good and evil from which they could choose.

Scripture says that one of the characteristics of God is that He knows good and evil, evil was not a new revelation to God, He always knew of it because He is all knowing.

Genesis 3:22
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

Therefore evil had to always exist if only in the mind of God as the opposite of what He embodied.

RT

I agree, with 'entities' I meant any creature, not just mankind. There are many creations from Gods hands. Angels have rebelled long before us, they were equipped with free will as well. So evil, disobedience to God, existed long before mankind.

But, what God would call evil cannot excist if the act of disobedience hasn't happened yet. God knew it would come into excistance, but the disobedience didn't excist just yet. Like God knew all time and matter would come into excistance through His Word, but before the point of creation, they didn't excist yet.

That's the reason why I see 'evil' synonymous with 'disobedience to God'. That doesn't mean you are wrong, though. That's just a different view :)