Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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1whowaits wrote:The ENP being the covenant confirmed is based on several assumptions.
1whowaits wrote:Also scripture (Dan, Rev, 2 Thess 2) repeatedly refers to a temple/holy place/sanctuary being in place and sacrifices being performed at the midpoint in which the AC stops the sacrifice and in which he sets up an AOD
1whowaits wrote:Those who hold to the ENP theory attempt to define the holy place as anything but a rebuilt temple as a rebuilt temple would have to be in place now with sacrifices being performed for the ENP theory to be the covenant.
1whowaits wrote: For the ENP to be true the scripture cannot be taken at face value in regards to the references to the rebuilt temple and re-institued sacrifices, which would then give more importance to a theory rather than the straightforward interpretation of scripture.
1whowaits wrote:Where is 1 world government, 1 world currency, 1 world religion?
Now, these aforementioned questions actually lead me to the meat of the point I would like to make. You assume that there will be a one world government - let me remind you that there will be Nations that fight against the AC.
SwordofGideon wrote:Wouldn't it be possible to have a world government and still have civil wars? Much like America's Civil War was one nation that fought against itself. Now take that analogy and apply it to a larger scale.
SwordofGideon wrote:We see nations that fight against the AC before he comes to full power and right near the end where it starts to fall apart. In-between that time tho he has uncontested power. Who can make war with the Beast?
SwordofGideon wrote:My biggest problem with the ENP is where are the two witnesses?
Wickus wrote:My only problem with the ENP is time. I can not argue with anyone saying that there is no time left for JS to come back to power and for the other loose pieces to fall into place.
America's Civil War is really not a good example, as it was a divided Nation at that time. Even Scripture mentions that any kingdom that is divided against itself will not stand. Matthew 12:25-26 reads:
25) And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, "Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand.
26) "If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?
If the AC is not in "full power", how can the Nations actually come against him? Not all Nations will succumb to the authority of the AC, Scripture is clear on that. Daniel 11:40-45 reads:
40) "At the end time the king of the South will collide with him, and the king of the North will storm against him with chariots, with horsemen and with many ships; and he will enter countries, overflow them and pass through.
41) "He will also enter the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall; but these will be rescued out of his hand: Edom, Moab and the foremost of the sons of Ammon.
42) "Then he will stretch out his hand against other countries, and the land of Egypt will not escape.
43) "But he will gain control over the hidden treasures of gold and silver and over all the precious things of Egypt; and Libyans and Ethiopians will follow at his heels.
44) "But rumors from the East and from the North will disturb him, and he will go forth with great wrath to destroy and annihilate many.
1whowaits wrote:Mr Baldy, from the outset, the ENP theory always had an expiration date.
1whowaits wrote: We are now approaching that midpoint and the conditions described in scripture have not been met at this time.
1whowaits wrote:You limit your perspective to Dan 9 but the scripture has much more to say about the conditions at the midpoint of the week. Rev 13 states that the AC will have authority for 42 months over 'every tribe, people, language and nation'. Having authority over every nation would fulfill the definition of 1 world government under the AC. Nations may rebel, they may be conquered, but for 42 months, the latter half of the 70th week, the AC has authority over all nations.
1whowaits wrote:The midpoint of the ENP is almost here, where is the one who will have authority over all nations for 42 months? This is not even close, it is not reasonable to assume that this will take place in the next 2 weeks.
1whowaits wrote:Rev 13 also states that the whole world follows the beast and that men worship the beast and Satan and the image of the beast. This would fulfill the definition of 1 world religion, anyone who does not worship is killed. Where is this religion now?
1whowaits wrote:Rev 13 also states that the FP will force 'everyone' to receive a mark so that 'no one' can buy or sell unless they have the mark. This would fulfill the definition of 1 world currency or system of commerce, no one can engage in any transaction without the mark, without the mark any currency is worthless. Where is this mark that everyone will be forced to take?
1whowaits wrote:So where are the offerings and sacrifices, described as the 'continual', that are supposed to be taking place in Israel at the time of the midpoint?
1whowaits wrote:So when Jesus speaks in Matt 24 of an abomination in the 'holy place', spoken of by Daniel, the logical conclusion based on the evidence of several scriptures that demonstrate the presence of a temple in which sacrifices are taking place, would be that the 'holy place' is the temple spoken of by Daniel repeatedly.
1whowaits wrote:The theory is therefore disproved, unless a temple and sacrifices suddenly appear, unless an individual suddenly has authority over all nations for 42 months, unless the world then worships this individual, unless the mark is at least in the process of being instituted, unless all these aspects are in place or at least in the process of being instituted the theory is proved invalid, as the midpoint of the ENP is almost here.
david wrote:Do you guys brawl all over the board where ever you go? Looks like much personal offense is hurting belief
Mr Baldy wrote:david wrote:Do you guys brawl all over the board where ever you go? Looks like much personal offense is hurting belief
You know david, I really think that it's sad when one views a good debate - which is done with passion, and love; can be considered a brawl. None of this should be considered a personal attack. It should be, and always has been to my understanding information that edifies the Body of Christ.
If there are those who can't put forth some passion in their discussions, then I would have to wonder if what they say is actually from the heart. No I don't want a "sugar-coated"; "feel good"; "watered down" so that you won't hurt my feelings, reply from anyone.
I don't need my ears tickled. I need the Truth!
Let me remind you that Jesus never mentions a Temple in Matthew 25:15. He refers to the AOD occurring in the "Holy Place", and this is followed by "let the reader understand". So again, let's not draw any conclusions on this by making "logical conclusions" - as this would be YET another ASSUMPTION on your part. The Jury is still out on this, and will be until the event has officially occurred.
Mr Baldy : Let me say that the coming Antichrist will be a man of War. Scripture is very clear on that.
Mr Baldy :
Men will worship him because they want to eat, maintain a certain standard of living, maintain jobs, etc.....I see absolutely no indicator whatsoever that this worship is indicative of a "one world religion"
1whowaits wrote:Mr. Baldy, i am not sure you realize the timing problem with the ENP and what scripture states about the 70th week.
Dan 9 states that certain things will be accomplished by the end of the 70 weeks, including the end of vision and prophecy, which could only be fulfilled when Jesus returns to the earth and fulfills prophecy. The conclusion would be that by the end of the 70 weeks Jesus will have returned and prophecy will no longer be needed, the 70 weeks end with Jesus' return at armageddon.
Dan 9 states also that the AC will confirm the covenant for one 7, put an end to sacrifice at the middle of the 7, and later will come to his end. As the AC comes to his end at armageddon, it does appear that the 70th week ends at armageddon and Jesus' return. So as the AC comes to his end at the end of the 70th week, whatever the AC does will end at armageddon and the end of the week.
If the ENP is the strengthened covenant for 1 seven, the 7 years ends at armageddon, as the 70th week ends at armageddon. And whatever the AC does must end by the end of the ENP, the end of the 70th week.
Rev 13 states that the AC has authority for 42 months, and that he has authority over 'every tribe, people, language and nation', the AC has authority over all nations for 42 months. As 7 years consists of 84 months, 42 months would then 3.5 years. The 42 months or 3.5 years of the authority of the AC must end at the end of the 70th week, the 42 months must end at end of the ENP if the theory is correct.
That would mean that the 42 months of the authority of the AC over the nations would end at the end of the ENP, it cannot be extended, and the authority of the AC over the nations would have to begin 42 months or 3.5 years earlier, which would be within the next month.
For the ENP to be the confirming of the covenant, the 7 year period of Dan 9, the 42 months of the authority of the AC over the nations must begin within the next month, not sometime later as you suggest. The scripture is clear, the end of the AC is at the end of the 7 years, for the AC to have authority for 42 months, which the scripture clearly states, that authority must begin within a few weeks at most. If the authority of the AC over the nations does not begin at that time, the ENP theory is kaput, it would not be consistent with the clear timeline of scripture.
This is what i mean be the 'expiration date' for the ENP, the scripture is clear that the authority of the AC must begin at the midpoint, and that midpoint is a month away if the ENP is the 'seven'. And at this time it is not plausible that any individual will have authority over the nations in the next month.
And the scripture also states that the one who confirms the covenant, is the one who stops the sacrifice, and is the one who comes to his end. The one who confirmed the covenant was Solana, was it not? Is there another who confirmed the ENP? If Solana is the one who confirmed the covenant, then it is Solana who must have authority over all nations within the month.
Pretty big bill for a retired guy to fill is it not?
Dan 9:26-27 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war. And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.
אחרי השׁבעים שׁשׁים ושׁנים יכרת משׁיח ואין לו והעיר והקדשׁ ישׁחית עם נגיד הבא וקצו בשׁטף ועד קץ מלחמה נחרצת שׁממות׃ והגביר ברית לרבים שׁבוע אחד וחצי השׁבוע ישׁבית זבח ומנחה ועל כנף שׁקוצים משׁמם ועד־כלה ונחרצה תתך על־שׁמם׃
david wrote:...Dan 9:26-27 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war. And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.
Now read it again and ask yourself who is "he". How would modern English with proper grammar (which I'm terrible at) answer this question?
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ampersand wrote:david wrote:...Dan 9:26-27 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war. And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.
Now read it again and ask yourself who is "he". How would modern English with proper grammar (which I'm terrible at) answer this question?
...
hi David,
This is exactly what I can't move past every time I read these verses. Especially because the word for "prince" in v. 25 is the exact same word used in v.27 . You should have included v.25.
The pronoun should refer back to the "prince," and in v.25 the "prince" is the Messiah. That's how I would read it, if I had never been exposed to "end-times prophecy" teachings.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=54286&p=472905#p472882
in Christ,
&
ps. I'm not saying that's how it should be understood - only that it's how I would read it if I was just reading the text without preconceptions.
1whowaits wrote:Mr. Baldy, i am not sure you realize the timing problem with the ENP and what scripture states about the 70th week.
1whowaits wrote:Mr. B, as far as 1 world religion, the AC proclaims himself god over every god, men worship the AC, anyone who does not worship the image of the beast is killed, and christians are warred against, doesn't look like the AC leaves room for any other religon but his own.
Hisown wrote:Is it possible that once AC is " indwelt " ( when satan is completely cast out of heaven ) that Lucifer ( evil personified in the flesh ) will stop at nothing knowing his time is short. Could this be what it takes to cause those whose names and not written in the Lambs book of life ( before ) the foundation to " revere " him ?
Satan still has access to the throne until now (as the "accuser") but once the" appointed -time" comes that the Lord has ordained, he has lost that " privilege". He is not able to move beyond what the Lord has purposed and will be revealed only at the time ordained by the Lord- period.
david wrote:I Would especially be interested in hearing from Mr. Baldy as well on this question.
Read Daniel 9:26 to 9:27 below for the first time.
Note: There are no paragraphs in the Tanak like we have in our English translations today. This is how Daniel 9:26 to 9:27 is written in the Tanak. I left some translation punctuations in that are not found in the Tanak, see if you can find them.
Dan 9:26-27 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war. And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.
Now read it again and ask yourself who is "he". How would modern English with proper grammar (which I'm terrible at) answer this question?
Mr Baldy wrote:In closing, I would like to ask you, and others who believe that the coming AC will be anything more than a mere Politician - with an inflated EGO, who is given "Authority to Act" for 3.5 years, and wages war throughout the Earth - to please provide Scripture to support your theory. Because my theory is that this man will not come on the scene and immediately control things, be this god-like creature who will solve the Worlds problems; and/or immediately usher in his Mark so that he controls the entire Earth. On the contrary, this man will be nothing more than a lying Politician working behind the power of Satan, who wages war and havoc throughout the Earth, and will require a Mark of of some sort; and at some point during his 3.5 year reign - in order that you can eat. The World will have progressed to be in such chaos, that this man will be the one who will be given the reigns to pull it back together - however, on a Satanic platform. He will meet his doom at Armageddon.
Mr Baldy wrote:david wrote:I Would especially be interested in hearing from Mr. Baldy as well on this question.
Read Daniel 9:26 to 9:27 below for the first time.
Note: There are no paragraphs in the Tanak like we have in our English translations today. This is how Daniel 9:26 to 9:27 is written in the Tanak. I left some translation punctuations in that are not found in the Tanak, see if you can find them.
Dan 9:26-27 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war. And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.
Now read it again and ask yourself who is "he". How would modern English with proper grammar (which I'm terrible at) answer this question?
Hi david,
If you believe that the "he" is Jesus in the aforementioned passages of Scripture, then I would like to ask you two questions:
1) Who were the people of the ruler who was to come that destroyed the city and the sanctuary?
2) What 7 year "covenant with many" did Jesus confirm?
I believe that the answer to these two questions, should leave absolutely no doubt - to whom the "he" actually is.
Douggg wrote:If I might comment. The AC will eventually be worshiped as god, because he goes into the temple to show that he is god. Which the act itself is a claim to be god. There will be an image of him made that everyone will be required to worship.
Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Mr Baldy wrote:Douggg wrote:If I might comment. The AC will eventually be worshiped as god, because he goes into the temple to show that he is god. Which the act itself is a claim to be god. There will be an image of him made that everyone will be required to worship.
Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Douggg, honestly, do you really believe that the aforementioned verse of Scripture is literal?
There isn't a single man on this planet, or even Satan himself that has the power to literally give life to an inanimate object and make it speak.
For those that take this passage of Scriptural literal, (in my humble opinion) this would be yet another example of how Scripture gets "sensationalized" to fit a particular End Time ideology.
Mr Baldy wrote:Douggg wrote:If I might comment. The AC will eventually be worshiped as god, because he goes into the temple to show that he is god. Which the act itself is a claim to be god. There will be an image of him made that everyone will be required to worship.
Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Douggg, honestly, do you really believe that the aforementioned verse of Scripture is literal?
There isn't a single man on this planet, or even Satan himself that has the power to literally give life to an inanimate object and make it speak.
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And it deceives those dwelling on the earth, because of the signs which were given to it to do before the beast, saying to those dwelling on the earth to make an image to the beast who has the wound of the sword, and lived.
And was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak, and might cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.
eschologizer wrote: If I go turn on the "Tonight Show," Jay Leno's image would come to life and start speaking. I personally suppose that the image itself doesn't even have to be a hologram (as some suppose). Just an image that comes to life. This could take the form of even a very large TV screen, like what is in Times Square.
ampersand wrote:Now, I am not making any claims about what the image is, and whence the 2nd beast derives these abilities, but from the way it is written it certainly seems to me that the 2nd beast does indeed have power to give a spirit to the image to cause it to speak.
ampersand wrote:ps. btw, I don't think this discussion of the image points to any kind of 'hole' in the ENP(I) theory, which is the topic of the thread. Just wanted to be clear on that.
Mr Baldy wrote:...
The most logical reasoning that I believe is very much in line with Scripture, that I've seen so far, is the example that eschologizer has given.
No created "being" has the power to "breathe" life into anything - this includes Satan himself.
...
Mr Baldy wrote:...
I believe that it relates to the topic. Often times we drift away from the topic, as other ideas that relate to the subject come up and are discussed. It all often still edifies the Body of Christ - so I personally don't have a problem with it at all. It very often leads to other threads being started, and continues dialogue - which is great, and the purpose of this forum....
ampersand wrote: HOWEVER, it states that to the 2nd beast "was given to it to give a spirit to the image of the beast." If one is a Scriptural purist, s/he will believe that an actual spirit is given to an actual image. This is sensational because it is supernatural, but then, isn't the rest of Scripture also quite sensational?
ampersand wrote: I believe every word of Scripture is important and meaningful, and in this case, baffling as it may be, I believe the text -- that a spirit will be given to the previously made image of the beast, causing the image to speak. (I highlighted "causing", because in the text, the image's ability to speak is a direct effect of it receiving a spirit.)
ampersand wrote:Another thought comes to mind. If the image is some kind of cinematic wonder, then the power to animate it is not exclusive to the 2nd beast. It seems that at that point, anyone could "give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak."
Stephanus' 1550 TR, Rev. 13:15 wrote:καὶ (and) ἐδόθη (was given) αὐτῷ (to it) δοῦναι (to give) πνεῦμα (a spirit) τῇ εἰκόνι (to the image) τοῦ θηρίου (of the beast) ἵνα (so that - indicating purpose/result) καὶ (even) λαλήσῃ (might talk) ἡ εἰκὼν (the image) τοῦ θηρίου (of the beast) καὶ (and) ποιήσῃ (might make/cause) ὅσοι (whosoever) ἂν μὴ προσκυνήσωσιν (might not worship) τὴν εἰκόνα (the image) τοῦ θηρίου (of the beast) ἵνα (so that) ἀποκτανθῶσιν (they might be killed)
Mr Baldy wrote:Let me first state that, I wholeheartedly disagree with your interpretation. ... I don't know what interpretation of Scripture that you are using - as this term "spirit" given to the image of the beast, is new to me ...
Another thought comes to mind. If the image is some kind of cinematic wonder, then the power to animate it is not exclusive to the 2nd beast. It seems that at that point, anyone could "give a spirit to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak."
ampersand wrote:Feel free to respond to my clarification of sensationalism/sensationalizing/sensational, but I think it's very low on the priority list when seeking understanding of God's Word.
ampersand wrote:Just to be clear, I am not using an "interpretation of Scripture" but a "translation of Scripture" that renders πνεῦμα in its most literal form ("spirit") and leaves the interpretation up to the reader. More on this later.
1whowaits wrote:Mr B, you appear to be saying that if an event described in prophetic scripture is attributed to a supernatural cause, it is then sensationalism, and as it is sensationalism the supernatural interpretation is then invalid. That view would be contrary to scripture which describes many supernatural events not as sensationalism but evidence of a spirit world beyond the natural world, and evidence of the existence of God Himself.
1whowaits wrote:The passage you appear to have missed in which the AC proclaims himself as god is Dan 11- 'The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and say unheard of things against the God of gods....nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.
david wrote:Mr. Baldy I am still waiting to hear your answer. I want to hear whom YOU say "He" is according to the passage in Dan. 9:26-27 as written below. I know what I think and I answered your question to my question. I am waiting to hear what ye say man.
david wrote:Do I know for certain that Titus made a covenant with Jerusalem in 67 AD, no I don't know history did not record that but the dates match and the description of the temple and the abomination being set up does. This is the conclusion Issac Newton had drawn.
Don't get me wrong here, I do think fulfilled prophecies from the past can be a foreshadow of what is to come. Like with Antiochus Epiphanes whom was a proto type of Titus. The next one may look similar but different. Third time is a charm...
Mr Baldy wrote:...ampersand wrote:Just to be clear, I am not using an "interpretation of Scripture" but a "translation of Scripture" that renders πνεῦμα in its most literal form ("spirit") and leaves the interpretation up to the reader. More on this later.
When you have completed what it is that you have "more" to relate on, then we will continue this debate. There are some comments that you have made, that I will definately come back to.
Mr Baldy wrote:...1whowaits wrote:The passage you appear to have missed in which the AC proclaims himself as god is Dan 11- 'The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and say unheard of things against the God of gods....nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.
1whowaits, I have not missed this particular passage of Scripture. As a matter of fact, it's very interpretation that many give it - is a pet peeve that I have.
Many want to say that the coming AC will "declare" himself God; "claim" to be God; "say" that he is God; "demand to be worshiped" as God.....etc. I read that absolutely no where in Scripture, nor is it written in the aforementioned passage of Scripture that you have provided. The coming AC will do, say, and have a very inflated EGO - all in the name of "exhalting" himself above God; but this is not to say that he is coming on a platform as God.
1whowaits wrote:Mr B, so when 2 Thess 2:4 clearly states that the AC will proclaim or show himself to be God (deity or God is the translation), in your opinion he is not really calling himself god, even though the passage states that he will do this.
mark s wrote:When Jesus was born, it was just a few shepherds, and some magi.
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ampersand wrote:mark s wrote:When Jesus was born, it was just a few shepherds, and some magi.
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...and Anna & Simeon knew exactly who He was when they saw the 8-day-old Baby in the temple.
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