A few questions: End Time parables, Millennium, Gog/Magog

[inhopeofglory]

Hi All,

This may be more appropriate for the Prophecy Debate forum...

I am a little puzzled about how to reconcile the details of the parables of Matthew 13 - the wheat and tares, and the dragnet - with the post-trib viewpoint. Specifically, I am wondering about the apparent order in which Jesus says things will be done. Verse 49-50: "... The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Here we have the just remaining behind, and the wicked being taken away, whereas the rapture is considered the separation of the just from among the wicked. For example, in Matthew 24:31 it is the elect who are gathered together. I understand that Jesus is probably not pressing the details of the parables, but it still bothers me that the Scripture is so explicit about the angels removing that which offends/unbelievers rather than removing the righteous. I have seen this point used against post-trib, so it'd be helpful - both personally and in future debate - to have a response.

Secondly, in what way is the destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "everlasting" if the final resurrection and judgement of the wicked is after the Millennium?

Thirdly, in response to the post-trib argument that some unbelievers will enter the Millennium (in regard to the "repopulation problem"), it has been put to me that "the nations" spoken of in Zechariah 14:16-17, Ezekiel 36:28-29, 36, and Isaiah 14:1-2 do not have to consist of unbelievers at this point - in the pre-trib scheme, they are mortal, believing survivors of the Tribulation. Amos 9:12, for example, speaks of Israel possessing "the Gentiles who are called by My name" - i.e. believers. So is there anything in the language that would indicate that the Scriptures definitely speak of unbelievers entering the Millennium? In Ezekiel 36:36 the KJV has translated the Hebrew "goyim" as "heathen" - i.e. unbelievers - but I know that "goyim" can merely refer to nations or Gentiles, rather than specifically unbelieving nations/Gentiles.

Following on from this, it would seem that there must be a significant number of mortal adults who enter the Millennium if the judgement of the nations in Matthew 25 is to take place as portrayed in the Scriptures. Children and babies cannot be the only ones who survive the Tribulation, as Christ would not say such things of them (i.e. that they fed Him, clothed Him, etc). The sheep appear to definitely be believers, as they are called "the righteous". The thing is, from what Jesus says of them - i.e. their actions in protecting/caring for His brethren - it would appear that they must have been believers for a while during the Tribulation. However, in the post-trib view, all the believers at the time of the Second Coming are raptured and thus glorified before this judgement takes place.

It would appear that the remaining unbelieving Jews are saved after the Rapture, so I see no reason why some surviving Gentiles can't put their faith in Jesus and be saved at the same time, too. Joel 2:32 says, in the context of the Day of the Lord, that “... whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved....” However, it is difficult to think that these “last-minute” Gentile believers are those who did the things Christ commends in Matthew 25, as they were saved so late.

What are your thoughts on how to resolve these apparent difficulties?

I have also recently taken another look at the Gog + allies battle in Ezekiel 38-39, with a view to locating its timing in the End-time scenario of events. I would be interested in your view on this, in light of the following.

Placing this battle at the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation period would account for Israel's burying the dead for seven months and burning the weaponry for seven years (39v9, 12). However, this does not fit with the following verses clearly showing Israel's spiritual renewal and the exaltation of God among the nations at the end of this battle:

39:7: "So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel."
39:21-22: "I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day forward."
39:29: "And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD.”"

These are very specific statements that cannot come to pass before the second coming of Christ.

In contrast, there are a number of significant similarities between this battle and the battle of Armageddon:

1) The call to the birds of the air (Revelation 19:17-18 and Ezekiel 39:17-20)
2) A great earthquake, with hail (Revelation 16:18-21 and Ezekiel 38:19-22)
3) The remnant of Israel being saved (Zechariah 12:10 and Ezekiel 39:29)

However, it is difficult to imagine that the following could be said of Israel at the end of the Great Tribulation:

Ezekiel 38:11-12: "You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’— to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land."

I appreciate everyone's thoughts, providing that they are trying to answer my questions and not merely provoking debate on my current, evidently post-trib position. These questions are therefore probably more suited to those with either post-trib or pre-wrath viewpoints.

Regards, inhopeofglory

[Douggg]

Hi inhopeofglory, I will address your Gog/Magog issue.

The battle itself takes place immediately pretrib. Right afterwards, the AC confirms the covenant, the 7 years, last week of Daniel 9's 70 weeks.

As you say there are parts of Ezekiel 39 that can only be from a perspective of Jesus's having returned. How so, if the conditions in Isreal for Gog/Magog to take place, as living in peace are not indicative of those condition of the great tribulation?

Here's the explanation. Gog/Magog does not take place during the 7 years or at the end. Gog/Magog is the event that tips off the seven years of the AC.

In Ezekiel 39:4 there is a feast by the birds and beasts on Gog's army. The account of Gog/Magog ends in 39:16. There is no more mention of Gog after that verse.

In Ezekiel 39:17-20, there is a second feast which is not on Gog's army, but the Armageddon bloodbath when Jesus returns. Ezekiel 21-29 is after Jesus has returned.

The two feasts are separated by 7 years. Which is why the timeframe for burning the remains of Gog's army for fuel is 7 years.

The two feasts bookend the 7 year time of the AC.

Whether there is a peace treaty of sorts (not that of the AC) that precedes Gog/Magog, perhaps. Or maybe, against the backdrop of the holocaust and 2000 years of persecution, the Jews in relative terms, could be considered as living in peace right now, albeit it is certainly paradoxial considering the potential threats they have to deal with every day.


Doug L.

[Pretzelogical]

WOW! Perhaps you should divide each of these into its own thread?

Scripture says the angels gather the believers in the air to meet Christ there. That is the sorting of wheat from tares. Then the tares are burned. The meek inherit the earth.
The angels sort out the fish when Christ comes and His own meet Him in the air while the bad fish are thrown out.
The foolish virgins who lighted their life with their own good works are cast out while the wise virgins who shone the true Light of the World are taken into the marriage supper.
The ungrateful servant who thought his Master to be harsh (unbeliever) buries what was given to him. When the Master returns, that servant is cast out, while those who eagerly served the Master meet with Him and are rewarded.
Jesus measures His people (temple). Anyone who is not a "living stone" (in the wall or a pillar) is cast out and the temple of living stones comes down to the new earth with Jesus.
Is that what you asked?

[inhopeofglory]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies! I'm afraid I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you, however, Douggg, as I don't think your proposed solution works, for the following:

Verse 7 of Ezekiel 39, right on the heels of the "first feast", says: "So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel." How can that be true if it's before the Great Trib?

Pretzelogical, the whole thrust of my question regarding the parables is that those who are gathered (the tares/bad fish) are the direct opposite of the Rapture, in which the righteous are the ones gathered.

I look forward to (all) your replies!

Regards, inhopeofglory

[Douggg]

Hi,

Thanks for the replies! I'm afraid I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you, however, Douggg, as I don't think your proposed solution works, for the following:

Verse 7 of Ezekiel 39, right on the heels of the "first feast", says: "So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel." How can that be true if it's before the Great Trib?

Because the Lord is talking about a process that takes place over the course of the seven years.... that begins with Gog/Magog and ends with His return..

Doug L.

[Pretzelogical]

those who are gathered

Wheat is gathered to meet the LORD in the air. Tares are gathered to be thrown in the fire. It isn't about who is gathered since all are sorted and gathered. Am I seeing this wrong?

[inhopeofglory]

Perhaps I'm making too much of the details in this case, but the order is "wrong" for the Rapture - in the parables the wicked (tares/bad fish) are gathered first, and then the righteous (wheat/good fish).

Verse 49 of Matthew 13 is very specific: So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just...

According to Jesus' interpretation of His parable, the wicked are separated, the just remain. But the Rapture is the opposite - the righteous are gathered first, then the wicked destroyed.

[mark s]

Hi inhopeofglory,

I’d like to give you my thoughts on some of what you’re asking.

I am a little puzzled about how to reconcile the details of the parables of Matthew 13 - the wheat and tares, and the dragnet - with the post-trib viewpoint. Specifically, I am wondering about the apparent order in which Jesus says things will be done. Verse 49-50: "... The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Here we have the just remaining behind, and the wicked being taken away, whereas the rapture is considered the separation of the just from among the wicked. For example, in Matthew 24:31 it is the elect who are gathered together. I understand that Jesus is probably not pressing the details of the parables, but it still bothers me that the Scripture is so explicit about the angels removing that which offends/unbelievers rather than removing the righteous. I have seen this point used against post-trib, so it'd be helpful - both personally and in future debate - to have a response.

I’m pre-trib in my views, so I can’t really give you a reconciliation to post-trib thinking, but I thought to share my ideas with you. This is not intended for the purpose of debate, just to offer such ideas as I have.

Personally, I think these parables are referring to the sheep/goats judgment in Matthew 25, as the nations are gathered together, the wicked are removed, and the righteous remain. Alternatively, this could be referring to the overall scheme of judgment at the end of the age, including Israel as well as the gentile nations, as, again, the wicked are removed, and the righteous remain.

I think that with parables, we need to identify the key points the parable is intended to teach, without necessarily trying to build doctrine on each individual detail. In many cases, doing so can lead one down the wrong road.

In the parable of the dragnet, which you’ve quoted, all the fish are gathered, then the bad are separated out from the good. This is exactly what happens at the sheep/goats judgment.

Secondly, in what way is the destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "everlasting" if the final resurrection and judgement of the wicked is after the Millennium?

I think of this in the same way as someone who has committed an offence with a mandatory sentence, and who has just been convicted. They have not been formally sentenced yet, but as they are remanded following their conviction, it is to begin serving that sentence which the law has already decreed. Does that make sense?

Thirdly, in response to the post-trib argument that some unbelievers will enter the Millennium (in regard to the "repopulation problem"), it has been put to me that "the nations" spoken of in Zechariah 14:16-17, Ezekiel 36:28-29, 36, and Isaiah 14:1-2 do not have to consist of unbelievers at this point - in the pre-trib scheme, they are mortal, believing survivors of the Tribulation. Amos 9:12, for example, speaks of Israel possessing "the Gentiles who are called by My name" - i.e. believers. So is there anything in the language that would indicate that the Scriptures definitely speak of unbelievers entering the Millennium? In Ezekiel 36:36 the KJV has translated the Hebrew "goyim" as "heathen" - i.e. unbelievers - but I know that "goyim" can merely refer to nations or Gentiles, rather than specifically unbelieving nations/Gentiles.

Isaiah 13:6-9
(6) Howl! For the day of YHWH is at hand. It shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
(7) On account of this all hands shall droop, and every heart of man shall melt;
(8) and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain like one giving birth; they shall be amazed, each man to his neighbor; faces of flames shall be their faces.
(9) Behold, the day of YHWH comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste. And He shall destroy its sinners out of it.

Matthew 13:49-50
(49) So it will be in the completion of the age: the angels will go out and will separate the evil from the midst of the righteous,
(50) and will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.

Matthew 13:41-42
(41) The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all the offenses, and those who practice lawlessness.
(42) And they will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.

Malachi 4:1
(1) For, behold, the day is coming, burning like a fire pot; and all the proud and every doer of wickedness shall be chaff. And the coming day will set them ablaze, says YHWH of Hosts, which will not leave root or branches to them.

These are some of the passages that say to me there will not be any wicked that will survive the end of the age.

Following on from this, it would seem that there must be a significant number of mortal adults who enter the Millennium if the judgement of the nations in Matthew 25 is to take place as portrayed in the Scriptures. Children and babies cannot be the only ones who survive the Tribulation, as Christ would not say such things of them (i.e. that they fed Him, clothed Him, etc). The sheep appear to definitely be believers, as they are called "the righteous". The thing is, from what Jesus says of them - i.e. their actions in protecting/caring for His brethren - it would appear that they must have been believers for a while during the Tribulation. However, in the post-trib view, all the believers at the time of the Second Coming are raptured and thus glorified before this judgement takes place.

This is a big part of why I do not see Matthew 24:31 as the rapture of the church. I understand the gathering of Matthew 24:31 to be Israel, and the gathering of Matthew 25:32 to be the nations.

It would appear that the remaining unbelieving Jews are saved after the Rapture, so I see no reason why some surviving Gentiles can't put their faith in Jesus and be saved at the same time, too. Joel 2:32 says, in the context of the Day of the Lord, that “... whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved....” However, it is difficult to think that these “last-minute” Gentile believers are those who did the things Christ commends in Matthew 25, as they were saved so late.

I think that there will be Jews and gentiles saved following the rapture, however, being pre-trib, I see that there will be time for the gentiles to feed, clothe, etc., Jesus’ brothers.

I have also recently taken another look at the Gog + allies battle in Ezekiel 38-39, with a view to locating its timing in the End-time scenario of events. I would be interested in your view on this, in light of the following.

Placing this battle at the beginning of the seven-year Tribulation period would account for Israel's burying the dead for seven months and burning the weaponry for seven years (39v9, 12). However, this does not fit with the following verses clearly showing Israel's spiritual renewal and the exaltation of God among the nations at the end of this battle:

39:7: "So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel."
39:21-22: "I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day forward."
39:29: "And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord GOD.”"

These are very specific statements that cannot come to pass before the second coming of Christ.

In contrast, there are a number of significant similarities between this battle and the battle of Armageddon:

1) The call to the birds of the air (Revelation 19:17-18 and Ezekiel 39:17-20)
2) A great earthquake, with hail (Revelation 16:18-21 and Ezekiel 38:19-22)
3) The remnant of Israel being saved (Zechariah 12:10 and Ezekiel 39:29)

However, it is difficult to imagine that the following could be said of Israel at the end of the Great Tribulation:

Ezekiel 38:11-12: "You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’— to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land."

Here is how I understand this section of prophecy.

Ezekiel 38:1 to 39:8 prophesies the Gog/Magog invasion and subsequent destruction. This part is prefaced by God’s instruction to Ezekiel, “prophesy against Gog . . .”

Ezekiel 39:9-16 tells of 7 years of burning the weapons, and 7 months of burying the dead.

Ezekiel 39:17-29 prophesies Armageddon, and the restoration of Israel. This part is prefaced with God’s instruction to Ezekiel, “Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field”.

While the first section speaks of a specific list of peoples, “Gog, and those with you”, the latter section speaks of “the rulers of the earth”, “all the men of war”. Ezekiel says, “the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. This judgment is against all the nations, all the men of war, and the rulers of the earth, not only that specific list of nations. Compare to Zechariah 14:2.

This is from using a straight sequential reading of the passage, and taking everything said as exactly true. So this puts Gog/Magog at the beginning of the 7 years, the clean-up/burning during the 7 years, and the final battle, with the restoration and regathering of Israel after the 7 years.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Douggg]

Ezekiel 39:10-29 prophesies Armageddon, and the restoration of Israel. This part is prefaced with God’s instruction to Ezekiel, “Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field”.

Hi mark why would you put 39:10 as being at Armageddon? Imo, 39:16 is the last verse dealing with the Gog/Magog invasion because right afterwards they have to clean up the land. And after great detail, verse 39:16 is the finisher.

Ezekiel 39:16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.

Then in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the prophecy of the Armageddon feast. Ezekiel 20-29 is overview from the perspective after Jesus has returned.

Doug L.

[mark s]

Hi mark why would you put 39:10 as being at Armageddon?

Hi Doug,

Only because I can't seem to type very well! That was a typo . . . thank you for calling my attention to it!

Love in Christ,
Mark

[rizen]

I am a little puzzled about how to reconcile the details of the parables of Matthew 13 - the wheat and tares, and the dragnet - with the post-trib viewpoint. Specifically, I am wondering about the apparent order in which Jesus says things will be done. Verse 49-50: "... The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Here we have the just remaining behind, and the wicked being taken away, whereas the rapture is considered the separation of the just from among the wicked. For example, in Matthew 24:31 it is the elect who are gathered together.

Hello inhopeofglory,

Does Matt. 13:49-50 really illustrate how the righteous are "left behind"? This can only be true if the "furnace of fire" the wicked are "cast into" is someplace other than the earth. And what about the righteous? It says in Matt. 13:48 that they are gathered into vessels. Does being "gathered into vessels" equate to being left behind on earth?

A quick word can connect the wheat/tare separation to the separation seen in Matt. 24:31:

Harvest = End of the Age (Matt. 13:39)
End of the Age = Parousia of Christ (Matt. 24:3)
Parousia of Christ = Harpazo or Rapture (1 Thess. 4:15-17)
Parousia of Christ = Episynagoge or "gathering together" (2 Thess. 2:1)
Episynagoge (2 Thess. 2:1) = Episynago or "gathering together" (Matt. 24:31)

If the the "gathering together in 2 Thess. 2:1 is equivalent to the "gathering together" in Matt. 24:31 (and it is), then the "harvest" that is a part of the wheat/tare separation at the end of the age in Matt. 13:39 can be used as a euphemism for the "gathering together" in Matt. 24:31 (via the "parousia" in Matt. 24:3 and 2 Thess. 2:1).

In the Olivet Discourse of Matt. 24-25, Jesus reiterates the same separation of the righteous from the wicked six times: Matt. 24:31; Matt. 24:40-41; Matt. 24:46-51; Matt. 25:1-13; Matt. 25:14-30; Matt. 25:31-56.

The first myth that must be dispelled is the idea that Matt. 24-25 is only about the Jewish people. This myth is explicitly dispelled in Matt. 25:32 where we see Jesus together with His angels judging the "nations." If the Olivet Discourse is only about Israel, then why is Jesus judging the Gentile nations? If the Olivet Discourse is only about Israel, wouldn't Jesus be judging Israel? If the Olivet Discourse was about Israel, wouldn't Jesus be returning with "church saints"? So Matt. 25:32 obliterates the notion that Olivet Discourse is only about Israel.

The second myth that must be dispelled is how the Olivet Discourse is detailing the "The Second Coming" of Jesus after Armageddon? Dispesationalists would have you believe that after Armageddon, Jesus gathers all the "tribulation survivors" together and has this perfunctory conversation with them based on how they "treated" the nation of Israel (Matt. 25:31-46). This flies directly in the face of Rev. 13:8, which explicitly tells us that all those whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life will worship the beast. In Rev. 19:21, we have Jesus literally killing the remaining beast followers at the end of Armageddon. So the idea that the sheep/goat judgment occurs after Armageddon is silly. There are no "tribulation survivors" whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life after Armageddon, therefore there can be no "goats" after Armageddon as well.

The third myth is that the "everlasting fire" the goats are dispatched to in Matt. 25:41 equates to hell. First off, we know the place the goats are dispatched to is the same place both the foolish virgins of Matt. 25:12 ("I know you not") are dispatched to because of Luke 13:25-28.

When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (Luke 13:25-28)

I know you not = Foolish virgins of Matt. 25:11
Depart from me = Goats of Matt. 25:41
workers of iniquity = Old Testament euphemism for "left behind" of Matt. 24:40-41; "evil servant" of Matt. 24:48; "foolish virgin" of Matt. 25:1-13; "wicked and slothful servant" of Matt. 25:26; and "goats" of Matt. 25:31-46. Just do a word search for "workers of iniquity" and see how many times this comes up.

The "weeping" portion of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is seen in James 4:9; 5:1; and Revelation 18:9,11,15,19 and is obviously connected to Babylon's fall in some way. The gnashing of teeth is associated with the wicked seeing the righteous exalted in that day (Day of the Lord) and themselves cast out: Psa. 112:9-10 and Luke 13:28. It's also somehow associated demonic plagues of some kind: Mark 9:18 and Revelation 16:10.

It's also significant to note how Jesus inserts the refrain "Who hath ears, let him hear" in Matt. 13:43. This is done after the tares have been cast into the furnace of fire and the righteous shine forth as stars in heaven. This refrain is one that Jesus continually emphasizes as he delivers his message to the seven churches in Revelation 2-3 (ev. 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22; 13:9). If the Rapture of the Church precedes the wheat/tare separation and has nothing to do with the Church, then why did Jesus see fit to include this explicitly "churchy" refrain in the parable?

Secondly, in what way is the destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "everlasting" if the final resurrection and judgement of the wicked is after the Millennium?

Everything that happens to the wicked church saints left behind after the Rapture is perfunctory: seven trumpet and bowl judgments in Revelation, Armageddon, Great White Throne Judgment, Cast into Lake of Fire for all eternity. Yes, it ends at the Lake of Fire and is everlasting, but their "real" destruction began before that time (Rev. 14:9-10).

Thirdly, in response to the post-trib argument that some unbelievers will enter the Millennium (in regard to the "repopulation problem"), it has been put to me that "the nations" spoken of in Zechariah 14:16-17, Ezekiel 36:28-29, 36, and Isaiah 14:1-2 do not have to consist of unbelievers at this point - in the pre-trib scheme, they are mortal, believing survivors of the Tribulation. Amos 9:12, for example, speaks of Israel possessing "the Gentiles who are called by My name" - i.e. believers. So is there anything in the language that would indicate that the Scriptures definitely speak of unbelievers entering the Millennium?

No unbelievers will enter the Millennium. Just as "tribulation saints" is a pre-trib myth, so is "unbelieving tribulation survivors." These Orwellian terms were designed to condition you to think a certain way about things.

Following on from this, it would seem that there must be a significant number of mortal adults who enter the Millennium if the judgement of the nations in Matthew 25 is to take place as portrayed in the Scriptures.

The Sheep-Goat judgement in Matt. 25:31-46 is yet another depiction of what happens when Christ Returns at the Resurrection/Rapture.

It would appear that the remaining unbelieving Jews are saved after the Rapture, so I see no reason why some surviving Gentiles can't put their faith in Jesus and be saved at the same time, too. Joel 2:32 says, in the context of the Day of the Lord, that “... whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved....” However, it is difficult to think that these “last-minute” Gentile believers are those who did the things Christ commends in Matthew 25, as they were saved so late.

Isaiah 19:23-25 informs us how that a significant portion of Gentile believers from Assyria and Egypt will be saved along with Israel. Of course this will have to take place during the trumpet and bowl judgments during the DOTL based on Isa. 19:1. After the great winepress war in Joel 3, we are told how Egypt is a desolation. In Psa. 83:8, Assyria is listed among the nations coming against Israel, so it would seem that for Assyria and Egypt to be saved, these war(s) that end in their desolation will have to take place before Armageddon.

[Jay Ross]

Hello

Do not the parables in Matthew 25 happen during the Millennium Age in the following manner: -

1. The Parable of the Ten Virgins: - At the Beginning of the Millennium Age

2. The Parable of The talents: - During the whole Millennium Age

3. The Parable of the Judgement of the Nations: - At the very end of the Millennium Age after the "little while" time period where Satan once again brings tribulation and oppression to the Saints.

It is just a thought. It really depends on who you see is the Master in the parable of the Talents, not forgetting that the Parable of the Pounds in Luke 19 is a parallel parable to the Parable of the Talents.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[1whowaits]

In the parable of the 10 virgins the bridegroom is absent then returns, during the millenium Jesus will be present judging the nations according to Isa 2. In the parable of the talents the master goes on a journey and is absent, again Jesus will be present year after year during the millenium as all the nations will go to Jerusalem to worship Him and celebrate the feast of Tabernacles year after year, according to Zech 14. It would appear that these 2 parables are not dicussing the millenium because they refer to an absence of the bridegroom/master, which would be Jesus, who is present during the millenium.

This is in contrast to the account of the sheep and the goats in Matt 25, this passage refers to eternal rewards and eternal punishments being passed out, which appears to occur at the end of the millenium, at the GWTJ. It is only at the GWTJ that the unrighteous receive their eternal punishment in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels, prior to that time the unrighteous are in the temporary place of holding, Hades, which is not the place prepared for the devil and is itself cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20.

Also in Matt 25 the righteous receive their inheritance prepared from the foundation of the world, not a temporary earthly inheritance, but an inheritance prepared by God, place prepared for the righteous. This would be consistent with the New Jerusalem, which does not come down from heaven until after the GWTJ. While the righteous may receive the temporary kingdoms of this world during the millenium, the eternal city whose founder and maker is God is not received until the time of the GWTJ.

It would appear that the sheep and the goats event is likely the GWTJ at the end of the millenium.

[Mr Baldy]

It would appear that the sheep and the goats event is likely the GWTJ at the end of the millenium.

Hi 1whowaits...you may have a problem with this statement, in that Matthew 25:31-46 reads:

31) “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32) Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33) And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34) Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36) I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38) And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39) And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40) And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ 41) “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42) For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43) I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44) Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45) Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46) And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

In reading the aforementioned passages of Scripture, it clearly states that this particular Judgement is done "when the Son of Man COMES in His Glory".

Now the question becomes: "Does the Lord go somewhere after His Millennial Reign in order to COME back to perform the GWTJ?

[1whowaits]

Mr. B., Rev 20-21 appear to indicate that the GWTJ occurs during the time when the earth and heaven are being remade- 'I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.'

If earth and sky flee from Jesus, where does the GWTJ take place if not on earth? Likely the GWTJ occurs in heaven or the spirit realm, as the earth is gone. Prior to the GWTJ Jesus had been on earth for 1,000 years. Prior to the 1,000 years Jesus was on His Father's throne in heaven. When Jesus returns to heaven after the 1,000 years, could He be accurately depicted as returning to His throne in heaven accompanied by the angels, coming to His glorious throne? While on earth Jesus reigns on the throne of His father David, while in heaven Jesus sits on the throne of His Father God, which of these would more likely be the 'glorious throne'?

[Mr Baldy]

When Jesus returns to heaven after the 1,000 years, could He be accurately depicted as returning to His throne in heaven accompanied by the angels, coming to His glorious throne?

Hi 1whowaits,

I guess I will need to see Scripture that indicates that Jesus "returns to heaven after the 1,000 years".

Respectfully, until you can show this, then there is a hole in your theory.

[1whowaits]

Mr. B, the scripture does not necessarily state everything directly, a little deduction is sometimes required. What is scripture suggesting by the statement that at the GWTJ the earth and sky flee from His presence and there was no place for them? Could that be consistent with the time of the remaking of the heaven and earth described immediately after the GWTJ depiction? If the earth is being remade during the GWTJ, where can the GWTJ then take place?

When scripture discusses salvation and how we should live it is clear and direct. When scripture discusses prophecy, not everything is stated directly, one has to reason about the scripture, it is after all a mystery. If one wishes to solve a mystery one must think about the clues that are given and where they lead to get to the answer, deductive reasoning is required for this part of scripture.

[Mr Baldy]

Mr. B, the scripture does not necessarily state everything directly, a little deduction is sometimes required. What is scripture suggesting by the statement that at the GWTJ the earth and sky flee from His presence and there was no place for them? Could that be consistent with the time of the remaking of the heaven and earth described immediately after the GWTJ depiction? If the earth is being remade during the GWTJ, where can the GWTJ then take place?

Then I beg to ask the question again.......where is Christ "coming to" in Matthew 25:31?

[1whowaits]

And my reply would be to look at the scripture and reason it out. The scripture does not directly state this, but it gives enough information to reach a reasonable conclusion. The scripture indicates that the GWTJ does not occur on earth, preceeding this Jesus had been reigning on the earth for 1,000 years, and Jesus is on the throne at the GWTJ, the question then being where is He and how did He get there? For whatever reason the scripture points to the question and apparently wants us to reason out the answer as it does not answer the itself question directly.

On the other hand if you make a different interpretation of Matt 25 and state that it occurs at the beginning of the millenium instead of the end, then you have a problem. Matt 25 states that the unrighteous are cast into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels and that they go into eternal punishment. Rev 20 indicates that the lake of fire is the place that the devil is cast into, hence the place prepared for the devil is the lake of fire. The unrighteous are then only cast into the lake of fire and receive their eternal punishment at the GWTJ at the end of the millenium.

So i would say that you view has a big hole in it, if your view is that Matt 25 occurs at the beginnig of the millenium. So you have made an assumption already, perhaps without realizing it.

[Mr Baldy]

And my reply would be to look at the scripture and reason it out.

So i would say that you view has a big hole in it, if your view is that Matt 25 occurs at the beginnig of the millenium. So you have made an assumption already, perhaps without realizing it.

Hi again 1whowaits,

Perhaps it is you here who is making the assumption in that you are trying to "reason out" what Scripture is plainly stating.

In your reply you have made the comparison of Matthew 25:46 - which states that the unrighteous will "go away to eternal punishment"; with Revelation 20 which has the unrighteous being judged - and then death and Hades are "cast into the lake of fire." Here we have two separate events that are in contrast with each other. Where I believe that you are making your assumption is that you are making these two events one and the same.

One event occurs at His coming - a clearly stated in Matthew 25:31 - He then separates the Sheep and Goats. No where in this passage Scripture do I see that they are judged. Where I believe the unrighteous "go away" to is Hades to await the GWTJ - where the worm dies not, and we have weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then we have a separate event, where death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire - as mentioned in Revelation 20:13-14.

With your reasoning, you would have to do something with the word "coming". Matthew has recorded that the Son of Man will gather the nations before Him at His "coming" - they are alive. John records that he sees a Great White Throne - with Christ seated on it , and the Earth and sky flee from His presence - books are opened, and the dead were judged - not the living.

This appears to be two separate events to me.

[1whowaits]

Mr. B., imo the scripture makes a clear statement about where the unrighteous go in Matt 25 and it is not Hades, Hades is not the place of eternal punishment nor is it the place prepared for the devil and his angels. By stating this is Hades you have a 'hole' in your view, so you would need to reason this inconsistency away, you still need to reason about the passage because it does not directly state Hades or the lake of fire, it just gives 'clues'.

IMO the statements made, the 'clues' given, are most consistent with the place of eternal punishment that is prepared for the devil and his angels being the lake of fire. This is a definitive time mark as to when this event occurs, at the GWTJ and the end of the millenium. This statement in Matt 25 is definitive and it points to a particular time, imo as this statement is the clearest in the passage regarding timing, this is the starting point for determining when this event occurs, and it is possible for the rest of the passage to be conistent with the GWTJ.

As far as the unrighteous and then Hades being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20 indicates that Hades is emptied of the dead and then the dead are judged at the GWTJ. Then the unrighteous and Hades are then cast into the lake of fire, the place of eternal punishment. Hades is not the place of eternal punishment as it is emptied of the dead prior to being cast into the lake of fire.

[Mr Baldy]

1whowaits,

Before I get down to the meat of the problem with your analogy, I want to first point out an apparent contradiction in your understanding.

First, you write this:

Mr. B., imo the scripture makes a clear statement about where the unrighteous go in Matt 25 and it is not Hades, Hades is not the place of eternal punishment nor is it the place prepared for the devil and his angels.

Then you write this:

you would need to reason this inconsistency away, you still need to reason about the passage because it does not directly state Hades or the lake of fire, it just gives 'clues'

But in your first comment didn't you say that Scripture makes it clear? My question to you now is, if "it just gives clues" - according to your second comment, then what makes your opinion better than mine?

You further state this:

As far as the unrighteous and then Hades being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20 indicates that Hades is emptied of the dead and then the dead are judged at the GWTJ. Then the unrighteous and Hades are then cast into the lake of fire, the place of eternal punishment. Hades is not the place of eternal punishment as it is emptied of the dead prior to being cast into the lake of fire.

Here you prove my point - now I ask, what is the purpose of Hades, and the fact that it contains the dead? It certainly can't be the righteous dead.

In an eariler post you made this statement:

Matt 25 states that the unrighteous are cast into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels and that they go into eternal punishment.

No where in Matthew 25 do I read that the "unrighteous are cast into eternal fire" - they do however, "go away to eternal punishment " - at His coming. And Scripture doesn't state exactly WHEN they go into this eternal punishment - but they do go into a phase of Judgement, as they are alive when Christ returns, to be sentenced later at the GWTJ. This clearly is the purpose of Hades, as all of the unrighteous Dead will remain there until the GWTJ. There is a difference between going away to eternal punishment, and being cast into the lake of fire - which comes at a later point, and is the Second and final death. This Scripture is clear on.

Where we differ is that you cannot explain where Jesus is "coming" to in Matthew 25 - and I have. The GWTJ and the Sheep and Goats separation at His coming are two different events.

[Jay Ross]

hello

If anyone has been studying Isaiah 58, they would understand that this chapter is about the future redemption of of the Nation of Isreal and it has a few points which becomes important, particularly for those who call themselves "Christian" who are grafted onto the Stump of the vine that Isreal is also grafted onto when they are redeemed is the last portion of the chapter which exhorts the redeemmed sanits to keep the Sabbath Day Holy.

The Question that needs to be asked/answer is the time span of the "Sabbath Day" and in whose domain is it measured? Is the Sabbath Day spoken about measured in God's time frame where a day is as a thousand years or is the Sabbath Day only measured in reference to man's understanding of time, a single revolution of the earth?

Now the redemption of the nation of Israel must happen before the Parable of the Ten Virgins unfolds and then we have the Parable of the Talents that follows which could be considered to be occurring during the "Sabbath Day" measured within God's time frame of reference where the Sants are required to keep that Day Holy by their actions.

I think that Mr B. and I might have found some common ground in our understanding of the future events.

Shalom

Jay Ross

[1whowaits]

Mr. B., you may not have seen the statement about the unrigtheous going into eternal fire but it is there in Matt 25:41- 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'

The devil is cast into the lake of fire for eternity, according to Rev 20, hence the lake of fire is the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels as that is the place the devil resides for eternity.

At the GWTJ Hades is emptied of the unrighteous dead and the empty Hades is cast into the lake of fire, the unrighteous are in Hades temporarily and do not return to it, hence Hades is not the place of eternal punishment.

Jesus stated in Matt 25 that the unrighteous were to leave Him and go into the eternal fire, which is obviously the lake of fire, prepared for the devil, which the lake of fire is as that is where the devil ends up. Jesus did not say go into Hades and wait for 1,000 years and then go into the lake of fire, He said depart from me...into the eternal fire.

The only time the unrighteous go into the lake of fire (except for the AC and FP) is at the GWTJ according to Rev 20, all the unrighteous dead are gathered from everywhere (even the temporary holding place known as Hades) and are judged and thrown into the lake of fire, this does not occur at any other time.

Therefore the statement by Jesus for the unrighteous to depart from Him into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels can occur at only one time, the GWTJ. This statement is timed to one event only, it occurs only one time.

The statement by Jesus is definitive, the inconsistency i referred to above was your view that this event in Matt 25 occurs at some time other than what the scripture indicates in Rev 20.

[Mr Baldy]

The only time the unrighteous go into the lake of fire (except for the AC and FP) is at the GWTJ according to Rev 20, all the unrighteous dead are gathered from everywhere (even the temporary holding place known as Hades) and are judged and thrown into the lake of fire, this does not occur at any other time.

Therefore the statement by Jesus for the unrighteous to depart from Him into eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels can occur at only one time, the GWTJ. This statement is timed to one event only, it occurs only one time.

The statement by Jesus is definitive, the inconsistency i referred to above was your view that this event in Matt 25 occurs at some time other than what the scripture indicates in Rev 20.

Hi 1whowaits,

I believe that I understand what you are trying to communicate here, but I think you're missing some key elements. Let's take a look at what is going on, and let's think outside of the box for a minute. I am in agreement with you saying that "this statement is timed to one event, it occurs only one time." The point that I am making is that it won't be necessary for Jesus to tell them that again. So again we agree.

What I believe that you are missing is that at the GWTJ - there won't be a need for the unrighteous to be told to depart again. At the GWTJ - Books are opened. The unrighteous will have already been sentenced, as their names are not written in the Book of Life . As I have mentioned they are alive at the 2nd Coming, they are then separated and sentenced at the Sheep & Goat Judgement. They then "go way to eternal punishment" - (it doesn't say that that are cast into the Lake of Fire at this point).They are resurrectued at the end of the 1,000 years - which is the 2nd resurrection - they are then cast into the Lake of Fire. You should be able to see the differences that Scripture has mentioned at these two Judgements.