Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

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Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:53 pm

I'd like to start a new thread about a way of looking at end-time prophecy which has led me to adopt a Pre-Wrath view.

I call it the sequence-of-events.

This is based on some baseline axioms:
1. The Bible is true, and has a literal component as shown be fulfilled prophecy concerning Jesus' first Advent.
2. The Bible is linear, telling linear stories, this happens, and then that happens.
3. While with man, nothing is new under the sun, with the Bible, there are specific and unique events which are not repeated like Creation, the Fall from the Garden of Eden, the Flood, the Exodus, and Jesus' first Advent.
4. There are "gaps" in prophecy where the Bible shifts from one event to the next without mentioning everything which happens in between.
5. Prophecy can be laid out in parallel accounts by one author.
6. Multiple authors describing the same event need not use identical language much like multiple witnesses differ slightly.
7. Prophecy can have a dual focus: near term and far term.
8. Sometimes an author uses observer-true point of view to describe an event like we say the sun "rose."
9. While symbolism is used, it can have a literal component: using the 800 pound gorilla imagery to describe a person doesn't make them an animal; it just means someone who gets their way.

One of the ways sequence-of-events can be used is to summarize. Using a sequence-of-events analysis renders Daniel 9:27 as follows:

• Covenant with many prevailed by the ruler who will come.
• Midpoint Abomination
• End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:41 am

Daniel 9:24-27 is one of the basic building blocks, and in keeping with the futuristic outlook of being Pre-Millennial, the one 'seven' is a time to which I think is still to come.

If we look at this section of prophecy, verse 24 describes six things which will be accomplished. Doing a word study of the verb actions is most rewarding, but a little long for right here right now. I will give my conclusion to that study that Jesus is the only one to perform all those actions, and not all of them have been accomplished entirely.

One matter of applicability; who are Daniel's people? Daniel can be ascribed to more than one group. Jews discount his prophetic book because he was an exile - that's the smallest group. Some Christians discount Daniel's prophetic end-time from Gabriel because they say Daniel was a Jew, and along with the Holy City (Jerusalem); this concerns the Jews only... However, in Daniel chapters 10-12, God (the Man in Linen, Jesus IMO) defines Daniel's people as: "your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book" which is a widest group encompassing both Jew and Gentile.

Verse 25 sets the beginning of the timeline described in the Gabriel's announcement. There are three times which can be said to start this timeline:
    • The first possibility might be found in the first decree of Cyrus the Great.
    • The second possible date may be in the seventh year of Artaxerxes I around 457 B.C.
    • The third possibility might be the commission of King Artaxerxes to Nehemiah in 446 B.C.
The other problem is how you count years, in the Hebrew lunar calendar, the Roman solar calendar, or using a "prophetic" calendar of 360 days.

The next issue is whene the Messiah is said to "come."
    1. The first is his birth which the Magi observed.
    2. The second instance would be the start of Jesus’ Ministry.
    3. The third would be the Triumphal Entry which Jesus stressed as important:
    LK 19:40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."
So the issue of drawsing an excat timeline is complicated. But that is not the object here - i.e. date setting. Needless to say there is a one date which combined with prophetic years yields a year which would correspond to Jesus' Triumphal entry.

As this board is getting shaky (the input screen is literally jumping all around as I type making any editing impossible) I'll post this and continue.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:58 am

Verse 26 sets up a sequence-of-events.

AFTER the sixty-two 'sevens:' (which sets the sequence for the next three events)
  • Messiah cut off
  • City and sanctuary destroyed
  • Wars continue until the end
There is an additional piece of information listed: desolations have been decreed. This is important.

What verse 26 does is lay out an overview which brings us to the "end," the qes, which is a word associated with Judgment, remember: desolations have been decreed.

Verse 27 then is laid out in parallel. Having gotten to the "end," Gabriel 'backs up,' so to speak, and provides additional detail of the end which is of particular interest. This is the one 'seven.'

Since the one 'seven' is linked to the end, and since war has been a continual state since Jesus' time - I look to the one 'seven' as a future state.

In this study of Daniel 9:24-27, we can see that Daniel is a prophetic work, and not a historical piece as some critics claim. He rightly foresaw the crucifixion of the Messiah (cutting off), and predicted the same destruction of the Temple that Jesus foretold - which happened decades after His crucifixion.

Another important fact which we can bank on is that the 'ruler who will come' is identified by the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary: the Romans. This is in keeping with the overall timeline of the nations given in Daniel 2 whereby the Roman Empire is the last "Kingdom" to rule over Israel.

And now the input screen is jumping all over the place again, so I'll end. (This really is annoying - does everyone have this problem?)
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:10 am

The sequence-of-events uses intense word study at times, but overall, it is looks at the big picture. This is to simplify what is confusing. Summarizing as such, and putting into outline form linear narratives allows one to get the overall sense of the action taking place.

One such confusing section is the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation. Here is an outline of this portion of future prophecy which has aided my understanding:

I. White horse: the conqueror
II. Red horse: war
III. Black horse: economics and poverty
IV. Pale horse: pestilence and death
V. Those martyred for Christ
VI. Sixth Seal
    A. Sun/Moon/Star event
    B. Sealing the 144,000
    C. The Great Multitude
VII. Seven Angels with seven trumpets
    A. hail and fire burn a third of the Earth
    B. blazing mountain kills a third of the Sea
    C. Star of Wormwood turns the waters bitter
    D. One third of all light, sun moon and stars stricken out
    E. Abyss opened and locusts torment –the first woe
    F. Four angels kill one third of mankind; army of 200 million –the second woe
      a. Angel with the Scroll - measuring the Temple
      b. The two witnesses
    G. No action of judgment specified, instead just proclamation in heaven –there is no mention of the third woe. The scene changes entirely to a heavenly realm describing the start of God’s kingdom, and the final destruction of those on the earth. For how that is accomplished on earth, the parallel accounts reveal the answer on the nature of the third woe which describes the depth of God’s wrath as seven bowls to be poured out.

One of the notable aspects of this sequence-of-events is that the list is imcomplete - there is a gap in the third Woe and we are never told in this narrative exactly what desolation(s) makes the seventh Trumpet blast so terrible. What we do get is a conclusion to the time. This is signficant in the story-telling John presents because this "end" is repeated in Revelation, which itself points to the fact that the end-times are repeated in parallel accounts so as to cover all the diverse action which accompanies the "end."
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:17 am

I want to look at a portion of the Seal/Scroll account (taking out the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses for now):

• Sun/moon/star sign
• Mustering the 144,000
• Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
• Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
• First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
• Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
• Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
• Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
• Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
• Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
• Seventh Trumpet (no desolation mentioned) - end.

Looking at this, let's look back at Daniel 9:27's list:

• Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
• Midpoint Abomination (on wing - quickly) and connected to desolation (three nouns in a row in the Hebrew)
• End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.

At first glance there is nothing which lines up between these two lists because nothing is repeated, there is no one single event in either list which is alike so as to allow an overall sequencing to be made...

...until we look at Jesus' key end-time passage: the Olivet Discourse.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:35 am

Jesus gives us the key passage which allows us to integrate the Revelations of God to the one 'seven.' He lists four events which happen in a linear narrative of Mt 24:15-31.

• Midpoint Abomination (v 15)
• Great Tribulation (v 21)
• Sun/moon/star event (v 29)
• Gathering Elect from the clouds (v 30-31)

This gives us two events from each of the other two accounts which are the same. There are specific and unique events in the Bible. The midpoint abomination is one. The sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord is another. Now the two lists have one account which sets the order or sequence-of-events of the Rapture within the one 'seven.'

Here are the two lists again:

Revelation
• Sun/moon/star sign
• Mustering the 144,000
• Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
• Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
• First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
• Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
• Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
• Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
• Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
• Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
• Seventh Trumpet (no desolation mentioned) - end.

Daniel 9:27:
• Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
• Midpoint Abomination (on wing - quickly) and connected to desolation (three nouns in a row in the Hebrew)
• End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.

We can now know that all the events contained within the sixth Seal to the third Woe of the Trumpets happens between the midpoint abomination and the end of the one 'seven.'

This is because we can sequence each respective and disparate list around the specific and unique events each has and which Jesus has put in order. Again, Jesus provides us with the key.

As a way of introduction, each list of event sequences will remain intact. Daniel 9:27 and Revelation's order of events will stay in order. What comes before a specific and unique event will stay before. As a matter of logic in blending the two, the gathering of Saints must occur before their delivery in Heaven, so that sets the order between those two. However, the beginning of the one 'seven' happens before all, and the end is preserved as well.

The whole list would then look like this:
• Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
• Midpoint Abomination
• Great Tribulation
• Sun/moon/star sign
• Mustering the 144,000
• Gathering Elect from the clouds
• Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
• Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
• First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
• Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
• Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
• Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
• Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
• Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
• Seventh Trumpet (no desolation mentioned) - end.
• End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.

This is what started me on my study. I will continue to integrate other linear narratives to show that the Bible is consistent in presenting a Pre-Wrath Rapture which happens at some point past the midpoint abomination.

Right now the screen is unstable again... so I'll end and start my day.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:52 am

Hey Mark T-

I have that problem as well on longer posts. When I want to type a longer post I start with my word processor and then cut and paste. Welcome to the PreWrath section.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:23 am

Thanks Orange Mailman - at least now I know it's not my system that's shaky. I'm also cutting and pasting to overcome the fault so thanks again.

Let's move on. Without complicating this by getting everything together into one massive single timeline, how does the basic sequence of events line up with other major linear narratives of the end times? Pretty well as a matter of fact, but that'll be for later to show that. We can incorporate all the major narratives into one whole without violating any of the supporting narrative's individual sequences. This is the proof of many witnesses which has me so jazzed that there really is something to be gained by this study, and why I settled on a Pre-Wrath eschatology (no pre-conceived notion here).

What are the major narratives? From a book called Prophecy's Architecture by Cameron Fultz (an architect - go figure) lists them as:

- Revelation
- Matthew 24/Mark 13
- Daniel 9:24-27
- Daniel 12
- 1Th 4:13-5:11
- 2Th 2

From my own study I would list them as:

- Daniel chapter 2 for a general timeline of the nations
- Daniel chapter 7 for a closer look at the nations of the end times (they're contemporary see Dan 7:12)
- Daniel 9:24-27 for the seventy 'sevens'
- Daniel 11:31-to the end of Daniel for a look at the end-times
- The Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24-25; Mark 13; and Luke 17:22-37; 21:7-36
- Paul's teaching in 1Th 4:16-7; 2Th 2:1-12
- Revelation 2-3 for the Churches
- Revelation 6-11 for the Seal chronology (with an imbedded account of the Temple and Two Witnesses
- Rev 12:1-6 for Israel
- Rev 12:7-17 for the Dragon (which shows a difference between Israel and the Church in verse 17)
- Rev 13-16 for the seventieth 'seven' (Ch 13=1st half; Ch 14-16=2nd half)
- Rev 19 to the end for the action near the end of the seventieth 'seven' through the Millennium and into the New Earth

The difference I make, although I essentially agree with Cameron is the distinction I draw with parallel accounts. Without getting into all the nuances of parallel accounts, I distinguish them whenever there is a change of both scene and focus in a single author’s work. Repeated events is one way you know there is parallel construction in a work, and in the book of Revelation we have five instances of one half of the one ‘seven’ and three instances of the great earthquake at the end of the one ‘seven.’ Since there are not seventeen and a half years in the one ‘seven,’ nor three ends to the one ‘seven,’ then the repetition indicates more than one “look” at the end-times within Revelation. Here is the Olivet Discourse again:

    • Midpoint Abomination.
    • Great Tribulation.
    • Sun/moon/star event.
    • Gathering Elect from the clouds.
What I want to look at next is what I call the “one ‘seven’” account of Revelation chapters 13-16 inclusive. In a sequence-of-events summarization it looks like this:

    • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
    • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
      o He wages war against the Saints.
      o We are to endure patiently(remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
    • Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
    • Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.
    • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
    • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
    • Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind).
    • Harvest from the clouds.
    • Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
    • First Bowl - Sores on Man
    • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
    • Third Bowl - All water to blood
    • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
    • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
    • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
    • Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.
Is there any correlation to the Olivet Discourse? Yes.
The midpoint abomination / Great Tribulation are repeated in the same order as Jesus gives them. Considering that it is Jesus who is informing John of this revelation, it is not strange to think that it is much alike.

Furthermore, after the Great Tribulation, we have the Harvest from the clouds. There are three times this event is described in the Bible and two of them are here (the third is Paul’s description of the Rapture in 1Th 4:16-17).

The order is preserved. Remember gaps are allowed, all that is required is that each individual list be preserved. This is like saying the alphabet goes: B, L, S, T, W. By itself, that is a true statement. It’s just not the complete alphabet. When we get another list which goes: K, L, W, Z, we can integrate the two lists around a common specific and unique letter(s).

So we can integrate the parallel account within Revelation of chapters 13-16 with the Olivet Discourse: they are in agreement. I have underlined the Olivet Discourse within Revelation 13-16 and the added bullet point of the sun/moon/star event. I put it before the 144,000 because in the sixth Seal, it comes before them. Additionally when we look at Revelation 14, we can now see why the Kings hiding in their underground bunkers “know” Jesus is coming: Angels tell them. This also preserves the greater portion of Jesus’ Olivet Discourse that before the “end” the Great Commission will be fulfilled.

    • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
    • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
      o He wages war against the Saints.
      o We are to endure patiently
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
    • Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
    • Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.
    Sun/moon/star event.
    • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
    • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
    • Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind).
    Harvest of Elect from the clouds.
    • Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
    • First Bowl - Sores on Man
    • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
    • Third Bowl - All water to blood
    • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
    • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
    • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
    • Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby revelation12eleven on Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:58 am

Good to see another prewrather posting, Mark T. :welcome:

I love the simplicity of Matthew 24. And from there we definitely can build on Jesus instruction...
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby The Orange Mailman on Sun May 02, 2010 6:18 pm

Hey Mark T.-

So I'm guessing from your timeline that you believe that Revelation 14:14-16 is the rapture? Is that right? And since I have read Cameron's book yet, what does he have to say about the subject of the harvest and the vintage, if anything?

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby JayCee on Mon May 03, 2010 1:59 am

Thank you for all that MarkT and :welcome:


I have printed it all off so far to read through carefully. Is there more to come? You have done a great deal of work! Thank you for sharing it.
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon May 03, 2010 1:28 pm

Well, well, well....if it isn't "Teleiosis".

I'd also like to send you a warm :wavewelcome: , good to see you back, and I look forward to seeing your posts!
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Mon May 03, 2010 4:01 pm

Thank-you JayCee, yes there is more. Hello Mr. Baldy!
Here is a detailed study of another important, major end-time narrative.

The Man of Lawlessness

In 2nd Thessalonians 2, Paul lays out a sequence of events that will precede Christ’s coming. Like much of the Bible, Paul uses a linear sequence format providing evidence that Christ’s parousias, or coming, had not yet occurred. The Thessalonians mistakenly thought the Coming of the Lord had already occurred. Paul corrects that mistake:

    2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
The first thing that Paul does is link the coming of our Lord Jesus with the gathering. Paul also establishes the Day of the Lord as being the Day of Christ with his parousias. As stated, the order is implied of one and then the other by linking through the conjunction ‘and’. By stating it as he does, Paul mirrors what Jesus explains in the Olivet Discourse: The Son of Man comes and the Elect are gathered to Him. This can be confirmed from Paul’s first letter where he clearly spells out the order:

    1TH 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Here, Paul gives the order that Jesus comes down from Heaven. The dead in Christ are then raised first and with the ordering “after that” those who are still alive and are left are gathered. So the initial coming of Christ is for the Elect. They are gathered after He comes, meeting the Elect at the halfway point in the clouds. Furthermore, this happens on the same day as Paul continues on in his second letter because he states “that day” linking the two to a single day.

    2TH 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Because of the use of until as a conjunction, the order here is reversed. However, by restating the condition Paul lays down shows two events which must precede the Day of the Lord. By putting the conditional clauses first, a normal order can be reestablished. First Rebellion occurs and then the Man of Lawlessness is revealed and both these precede the coming of Christ. The first overall sequence of events can be delineated thus as:

  • The Rebellion
  • Man of lawlessness is revealed
  • Second coming of our Lord
  • Our being gathering to Him
    • Dead in Christ
    • Those who are alive and are left
As stated earlier in this chapter, with The First Half Week, this rebellion can pertain to the actions of the people led by the anti-Christ. It certainly has the same aspects of Daniel 8:12 which in the case of the end-times, this has the daily sacrifice not only handed over but also put to an end. In Jesus’ Olivet Discourse, He stated:

    MT 24:12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
The second condition pertains to the man of lawlessness being revealed. This can happen any number of ways, from his emergence as a power broker from within the ten ministers of the ruling council over the last terrible nation, to the one brokering the peace which initiates the seventieth ‘seven,’ to being wounded and healed and finally placing the abomination in the Temple. Because the book of Revelations reveals the ten Kings are aligned with the anti-Christ in his endeavor, a general rebellion, or state of apostasy may be understood as existing which allows for the emergence of the anti-Christ. Paul sets the order here as rebellion first and then the anti-Christ is revealed.

Paul concludes his sequence of: rebellion - anti-Christ revealed - Christ’s coming - gathering; as having an end where the anti-Christ is destroyed. This is same ultimate consequence is indicated in Daniel 9:27 and 11:45. Jesus speaks the same way assuring His audience of the end in Matthew 24:14. And like Jesus’ continuation in the Olivet Discourse with the very next verse, Paul expounds on the nature of the anti-Christ’s actions.

    2TH 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
The opposition and exaltation are different aspects of the same apostesia evident as a form of Rebellion. The oppression of God’s people is one form of opposition. The manner of opposition coincides to the three and a half years of oppression Christians suffer. Seemingly, the forces of evil are gaining. The other is the elevation of the man against God. This is akin to Emperors and Kings who have proclaimed their selves to be God, or setting up idols of worship even of themselves as Nebuchadnezzar did, however, Paul includes one salient fact here which fits with the Abomination just spoken of: this talking self-idol worship as delineated in Revelation chapter 13 is set up in the Temple. This would be the last possible instance where the man of lawlessness is revealed. If God’s people weren’t on guard before, in like fashion to the faithful Jews of the second century B.C., now they will start to resist this beast of a man as the Man in Linen laid out in the lens of dual focus of Daniel 11:31-35. Expanding on the second event in the sequence listed above, Paul lists four key events in respect to the anti-Christ here to the Thessalonians that will precede Jesus’ parousias:

  • The rebellion occurs versus Opposition and exaltation
  • The man of lawlessness revealed versus Setting himself up as God
    Then
  • Jesus comes
  • Our being gathering to Him
    • Dead in Christ
    • Those who are alive and are left
At first look, rather than have the order between the two preceding sets of conditions appear in parallel, as just stated, the aspect of Rebellion can encompass both the finer points Paul gives in verse 2:4. So one possibility is rather than stating rebellion as a general condition of the people, the second set of conditions could be substituted for Rebellion in the general sequence of events. However, countering that argument is an example of rebellion followed by the emergence of an anti-Christ figure in Antiochus IV Epiphanes. In that period of time, Daniel foresaw a general condition that led to a greater offence.

    DA 8:12 “Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it.”
As a consequence for rebellion, or pasha, which means transgression, a further event which is an abomination (siqqus) is allowed to happen. Here, in history, was a general ‘falling away’ from the standard of Old Testament custom in how the Jews of the second century conducted their personal affairs. Their devotion to God was displaced and Greek customs become the object of their desire. Gabriel reiterates the general condition of rebels (pasha, a word closely related to pasha) giving rise to the example provided in Daniel 11:31 for the end-time anti-Christ.

    DA 8:23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a stern-faced king, a master of intrigue, will arise.”
The rebels, then, are separate from the anti-Christ figure and the rebellion is not the opposition and exaltation he performs. This example aligns with Paul’s linear progression of events preceding Christ’s parousias. Thus, as a Biblical example for the end-times, multiple account prophecy supports a general state of apostasy as a valid interpretation for the first prerequisite condition of apostesia. And in this comparison, the state of rebellion represented by the Jews of Jerusalem turning away from their God ought to provide the example for a similar general situation developing in the future.

Instead of substituting apostesia or rebellion with the two elements of actions by the anti-Christ, the general state of apostesia as with the Church of Laodicea and society in general leads to an environment where the anti-Christ’s opposition and exaltation can take hold. This reading for a general state of rebellion would then interject the second pair of conditions Paul lists, the opposition - exaltation and the setting of the image in the Temple between the rebellion and the revealing of the anti-Christ as follows:

  • The rebellion occurs
  • Opposition and exaltation
  • Setting himself up as God
  • The man of lawlessness revealed.
  • Jesus comes
  • Our being gathering to Him
    • Dead in Christ
    • Those who are alive and are left
In the overall context of a sequence of events, there is one more facet added to the order - and again in reverse order: an entity holding back the man of lawlessness. Some conjecture concerns this verse and for a full refutation, see Appendix C. Simply put though, although the Pre-Tribulation school of eschatology puts the Church as being taken out here; however, as is shown, this is a prerequisite step for Christ coming back and gathering the Elect.

    2TH 2:5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed…
When this one is taken out of the way, or more appropriately taken out of the middle of the way, then the man of lawlessness is revealed. Some may see the anti-Christ ahead of time, but not enough proof will exist to say this man is the actual anti-Christ. While his campaign goes on, others are aligned with him just as the angel tells John in Revelation 17 that the ten Kings make war against the Lamb so that some doubt remains as to which one the anti-Christ will be. However, at the installation of the image, all doubt will be removed and the anti-Christ will be fully revealed. This final act of rebellion, the installation of the Abomination by the Desolator in the Temple will be timed by the removal of the “one.” Thus God makes the anti-Christ conform to His plan for Jerusalem and Daniel’s “people” in fulfillment of the seventy ‘sevens.’ The final sequence of events in Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians would then have an additional element provided in the mix:

  • The rebellion occurs
  • Opposition and exaltation
  • The “one” removed from the midst
  • Setting himself up as God
  • The man of lawlessness revealed.
  • Jesus comes
  • Our being gathering to Him
    • Dead in Christ
    • Those who are alive and are left
Drawing from Revelation 13:5 and 7 allows for a period of time for the rebellious nature of opposition against Christians and exaltation of the anti-Christ. The first three events can be understood as happening in the first half of the one ‘seven’ before the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27. After a restraining force from God is removed from the midst, then the final act of setting up the talking statue in the Temple removes any remaining doubt as to who the anti-Christ’s is and his intentions which would align Paul’s sequence as given to be much like the lens of dual focus in Daniel 11:31-35. The image fully reveals the anti-Christ and God’s people then resist him and the Great Tribulation that follows, which Paul does not include here, but Jesus did in the Olivet Discourse. This is followed by Christ’s coming and the gathering.

The order here is not complete. Paul omits much information, just as he mentions nothing of the Great Tribulation or God’s Wrath in how Jesus undoes the man of lawlessness. However, what can be discerned as missing, can be found in other prophetic accounts. Furthermore, by the specific and unique markers of the ‘setting up’ and the Day of the Lord, this account can be consolidated with other major prophetic accounts which build the framework of an end-time eschatology timeline. The important aspects are first that the order remains intact and in sync with other end-time prophecy and the second would be the additional information Paul provides:

The elements that are preserved in the general sequence of events are:

  1. Rebellion being both opposition to Christians and the exaltation of the ungodly
  2. Revealing the anti-Christ as a seminal event
  3. Christ’s coming
  4. And the subsequent gathering of the Elect
While the additional bits of information Paul provides are:
  1. “One” is holding back this man of lawlessness showing God’s control
  2. The Abomination occurs in the Temple.
  3. The order of the gathering, with the Dead in Christ rising first
Nothing in Paul’s eschatology conflicts with the general pattern which is emerging from Daniel and the Olivet Discourse. Rather the events he does list are in the same order. Having said that, reaching another conclusion; while Thessalonians is an important aspect of end-time Scripture, it is in no means a complete description of it. In it though, Paul does give a sequence of events which must precede Christ’s coming and the rapture of the Elect. This emerging picture does fit with other commentaries that maintain by his actions and plans that Paul did not expect an “anytime” rapture.

The final event in Paul’s sequence of events picks up where the text left off:

    2Th 2:8b …whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
This one half verse by itself could lead a reader to conclude that the Day of the Lord coincides with the final destruction of the man of lawlessness. Indeed, without the other multiple accounts of God’s Wrath in the end-times, concluding that a single stroke by the sword emanating from Jesus’ mouth as figuratively represented in Revelation 19:15 finishes the conflagration enveloping the world would be reasonable. The conventional Post-Tribulation eschatology uses this verse myopically precluding other conditional facts and linear sequences and has the Day of the Lord be either the Day to end all, or lengthens the Day of the Lord to encompass Wrath which is not explicitly connected to it. Looking at this verse solely leads to battling verses and without keeping the big picture in view, typifies the history of prophetic interpretation without a sequence-of-events paradigm. Looking at the verbs can shed some light at how a sequence-of-events perspective can view this verse in light of other prophetic timelines.

The verb overthrow comes from anaireō and it means in the nominal sense: “take up,” “take away,” “make an end” (ECB p1631). Furthermore, the word is a conjunction of aná and hairéō. hairéō means “to take,” “to win,” “to comprehend,” or “to select” (TDNT p27). The first part: aná lends either an emphatic meaning or the sense of “up.” Figuratively, it means to take away violently and so to put to death, kill, slay, or murder. The use of anaireō here by Paul is in the future tense, indicative mood, and active voice. Jesus will do this stated as a fact.

The verb destroy comes from katargeō and in the nominal sense it means: “to render inoperative,” “to abolish” (ECB p1659). Bromiley says, “The provisional disarming of demonic powers will issue in their complete destruction at the return of Christ” for its use in 2Th 2:8.

The man of lawless had been granted authority for forty two months. That authority culminated at the midpoint abomination. Immediately afterward, “Who is like God” arises and the Two Witnesses arrive. By their very nature being unable to be harmed, they upset the previously uncontested rule of the beast of a man. The first thing that can be suggested by anaireō is that previous authority is violently taken away, especially when the Two Witnesses can consume any person who comes up against them.

The verb anaireō cannot be used in its normal figurative sense of being put to death, slain, killed, or murdered because the anti-Christ is not killed on the earth. Whether the first instance of Christ's coming on the Day of the Lord in a Pre-Wrath eschatology or at the last day of the one ‘seven’ at Armageddon even in a classical Post-Trib eschatology; Jesus does not kill the anti-Christ on earth. This fact of interpretation stands upon Revelation 19:20 where the beast of a man is captured alive, and thrown while still alive into the Lake of Fire along with the false

To use anaireō in its nominal sense, Jesus would ‘make an end’ of the anti-Christ which suggests a process. Overthrowing him from his previous authority, removing his “power,” would be first part of the process which would come with the Two Witnesses who defy the anti-Christ; he is powerless over them. As the end-times proceed under a Pre-Wrath eschatological framework, making an end is a process whereby God’s Wrath reduces the anti-Christ’s world to a shadow of its former self. Final victory is Pyrrhic; he conquers the Kings of the South and East only to find himself facing the Lord of Hosts which ends with his capture.

Finally then, the anti-Christ is destroyed utterly. He is judged just as is determined in Revelation 11:18, “The time has come for…destroying those who destroy the earth.” He is judged before God and thrown into the Lake of Fire.

2nd Thessalonians 2:8 describes a sequence-of-events:

  • The man of lawlessness is revealed.
  • Jesus will make an end of him.
  • He is utterly destroyed.
Taken by itself, 2Th 2:8 could be read as happening very quickly. However, with additional revelation of God’s Wrath, which Paul does not address other than to assure the Church it does not face it, the Bible expressly states that it takes time; in the case of the first Woe, it takes five months alone. Other desolations which God has decreed may take longer as will be suggested later so that the entire remaining period of the second half of the one ‘seven’ will go until the end is poured out upon the desolator.

Since the first event of 2Th 2:8 is the midpoint, and the last event happens after the one ‘seven’ is over when the anti-Christ is judged before God, the second event can be anywhere in between in the second half of the one ‘seven.’ The suggestion here is that by use of the verb anaireō, it can, as a process, be the whole of the second half of the one ‘seven.’

Paul’s sequence of events in 2Th 2:1-8 can be summarized in bullet form in this manner:

  • The rebellion occurs
  • Opposition and exaltation
  • The “one” removed from the midst
  • Setting himself up as God
  • The man of lawlessness revealed
  • Jesus comes
  • Our being gathering to Him
    • Dead in Christ
    • Those who are alive and are left
  • The man of lawlessness is undone
  • He is done away with entirely.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby revelation12eleven on Tue May 04, 2010 7:57 am

Good stuff, MarkT. Really enjoying your posts...
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Tue May 04, 2010 1:48 pm

Thank you, and what I find encouraging is that the basic sequence of events aligns with what we have already covered from the Olivet Discourse and two of the parallel accounts within the book of Revelation.

With the knowledge that Paul imparts here, we can add to our previous list (I have underlined the aspects of Paul's sequence of events):


    • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
    • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
      o Rebellion occurs
      o Opposition and exaltation
      o He wages war against the Saints.
      o We are to endure patiently
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
    The “one” removed from the midst.
    Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
    Man of Lawlessness revealed
    • Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.
    • Sun/moon/star event.
    Jesus comes
    • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
    • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
    • Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind).
    Gathering of Elect from the clouds.
      o Dead in Christ rise
      o Those who are alive and are left rise
    Man of Lawlessness is undone
    • Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
    • First Bowl - Sores on Man
    • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
    • Third Bowl - All water to blood
    • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
    • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
    • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
    • Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.
    Man of Lawlessness is done away with entirely

We can see here that while things are added, they are not at odds with the information already provided. Indeed, the additional information before the midpoint helps flesh out the nature of the first half of the one 'seven.'
Last edited by MarkT on Thu May 06, 2010 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Thu May 06, 2010 6:43 am

In the first six posts, I integrated Daniel 9:27 to the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 6-11 (exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses) based on the key passage Jesus gives us in the Olivet Discourse which contains the midpoint abomination and the sun/moon/star event in their proper sequence order. This yields a list:

  • Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
  • Midpoint Abomination
  • Great Tribulation
  • Sun/moon/star sign
  • Mustering the 144,000
  • Gathering Elect from the clouds
  • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
  • Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
  • First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
  • Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
  • Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
  • Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
  • Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
  • Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
  • Seventh Trumpet (no desolation mentioned) - end.
  • End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.
Then I showed an integration of the Olivet Discourse with the events which play out in the one ‘seven’ from the parallel account of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation chapters 13-16. This includes the Bowl, or Vial Judgments. (I have re-ordered the indentation of the first half including the false prophet’s use of fire, or nuclear weapons before the seminal midpoint abomination event.)

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
    • He wages war against the Saints.
    • We are to endure patiently
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
  • Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
  • Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.
  • Sun/moon/star event.
  • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
  • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
  • Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind).
  • Harvest of Elect from the clouds.
  • Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
  • First Bowl - Sores on Man
  • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
  • Third Bowl - All water to blood
  • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
  • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
  • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
  • Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.

Can the Trumpet Judgments and the Bowl or Vial Judgments be reconciled together to create one master list?

Yes.

The first thing we can see alike is the start of the one ‘seven,’ but there are no identical events. The start of the one ‘seven’ which comes when a covenant is prevailed upon so as to be put into effect, ostensibly by the forceful anti-Christ, starts his reign as King of the North. In figurative speech, he can be said to rise as he takes the lead in imposing this covenant (agreement with many: there were over 50 participants at the Annapolis Conference in 2007 as part of the “Roadmap”), the covenant is put into effect, and then he rules for 42 months during the first half of the one ‘seven.’

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
  • Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
The second thing we see is the same event: the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27 which is revealed in further detail as the talking image of Revelation 13:14. This Jesus says is set up in the Holy Place, which Biblically (OT) speaking, is inside the Temple in front of the Curtain which separates it from the Most Holy Place (where the Ark of the Covenant is, or was in ancient times).

So we can say that those things which come before the talking image come before the midpoint abomination as well, and we can expand our list, integrating it further along logical lines so that each original sequence is preserved as well. This is an important part of the analysis: each linear narrative presents a ‘set of ordered facts’ and that order must be preserved.

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
  • Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
    • He wages war against the Saints.
    • We are to endure patiently
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
  • Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
The next event we see in the first is the Great Tribulation, but that is not mentioned specifically in Revelation chapters 13-16. However, the two laws which the false prophet puts into effect are the revealed cause of the Great Tribulation. This is the “test” Jesus said would come upon the whole world, and we are not to worship the beast nor take his mark. To do so disqualifies one from Heaven no matter what previous state of salvation the person thinks they had. You cannot say you have ‘Jesus in my heart,’ and worship the beast so as to save your own life. Jesus specifically warns us against that and that warning is repeated in Revelation.

So between the two, we can order the two laws first, and the Great Tribulation after, and these can be set as a consequence of the midpoint abomination.

  • Two laws
  • Great Tribulation
This can be added onto our previous list since they follow the midpoint abomination.

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
  • Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
    • He wages war against the Saints.
    • We are to endure patiently
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
  • Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
    • Two laws
    • Great Tribulation
Because both lists contain the Olivet Discourse, we already have the sun/moon/star event in both, so that really isn’t a proper integration point. However, in the Seal/Scroll chronology, this comes before the “mustering” of the 144,000, which do show up in Revelation 13-16. As a matter of logistics, a group will have to be called up before they can be assembled. So as the sun/moon/star event comes before the mustering, it comes first, then the mustering and finally the assembly on top of Mount Zion.

  • Sun/moon/star event.
  • Mustering the 144,000
  • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
And since Jesus says the sun/moon/star event happens immediately after the Great Tribulation, it is put right after it in this list as well.

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
  • Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
    • He wages war against the Saints.
    • We are to endure patiently
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
  • Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
    • Two laws
    • Great Tribulation
  • Sun/moon/star event.
  • Mustering the 144,000
  • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
Going on, the next “like” event is the gathering/Harvest. In the Olivet Discourse this refers to the Elect, which as a word is synonymous with Church in the rest of the New Testament, being both Jew and Gentile who believe in Christ Jesus. In Revelation, it is a Harvest. Both feature Jesus coming on the clouds, and I would opine that happens but once in the end-times. This is the resurrection/Rapture of the Saints, and is not unlike what Paul speaks about in 1Th 4:16-17. It is the same image. Quibbling over ‘on the clouds’ to ‘in the clouds’ can be dismissed as being representative of the nuances of different witnesses (Jesus versus Paul) describing the same event.

In sequence order then, the 3 Angel’s pronouncements and the declaration for then-future martyrs comes before the amalgamated listing of the gathering/Harvest. This also answers the question of “how” the wicked in their caves, bunkers, and liars “know” God is coming in Judgment for them in Revelation . They were told.

This is one inconsistency though between the two accounts. In Revelation 6:15-17 the wicked know God is coming for them before the 144,000 are mustered, yet in Revelation 14, the 144,000 are already assembled before the 3 Angels go forth to tell the world the Gospel message, which comes right before the “end” as Jesus said in Mt 24:14 and tell the world God’s Wrath is coming. I cannot discount that the actions are not totally one-two: that is, they could be performed simultaneously. I will preserve the order set in Revelation 14, but knowing these Angels go forth answers the question why the wicked – who don’t “get” God, get this essential fact right. It is important to note though, that while they get it right about God’s Wrath coming, and this is the first instance that word is used in the book of Revelation, God’s Wrath as world-wide desolations is not manifest at all in the sixth Seal.

  • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
  • Martyr's deeds will be remembered.
And this will be added onto our list as it was originally.

Between all the descriptions of the Rapture, we can say that Revelation 14:14-16 matches Mt 24:30-31. As a matter of logic, first the wheat is gathered and then it is delivered to the “barn” of Heaven as the Great Multitude of the sixth Seal. This fact is confirmed by an Elder who says the Great Multitude has come out of the Great Tribulation, which was going on until the sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord began.

  • Gathering Elect/Harvest from the clouds
  • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
And this fits on right after the events of Revelation 14 with the 3 Angels before it in Revelation 14:
  • Sixth Seal: Sun/moon/star event.
  • Mustering the 144,000
  • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
And since Jesus says the sun/moon/star event happens immediately after the Great Tribulation, it is put right after it in this list as well.

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
  • Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
    • He wages war against the Saints.
    • We are to endure patiently
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
  • Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
    • Two laws
    • Great Tribulation
  • Sun/moon/star event.
  • Mustering the 144,000
  • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
  • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
  • Martyr's deeds will be remembered.
  • Gathering Elect/Harvest from the clouds
  • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
In both the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 and the parallel and more detailed account of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation chapters 13-16, we have Wrath, expressed as Godly desolations (which have been decreed - Daniel 9:26) coming after the rescue or deliverance of the Saints. This is confirmed by Paul who says the Church is not appointed to Wrath, since we are faithful and not deserving of an earthly judgment since we are declared ‘not guilty’ by the atoning blood of Jesus.

However, there are distinct differences. How to reconcile them? Well first of all, I will note that the seventh Trumpet third Woe desolation is never delineated in the Seal/Scroll chronology. It is terrible as we are told, but we are never told what terrible consequence will befall the wicked! This is because John is told not to write. However, in the parallel account of the one ‘seven,’ John is shown another vision and he specifically writes that these desolations are last. So we can surmise that the Bowl or Vial Judgments (for those who prefer the King James Version) are the revealed third Woe of the seventh Trumpet.

This conclusion is buttressed by the fact that at the end of each account, Rev 11:19 and Rev 16:18-20, we read about an earth-changing Great Earthquake. This repeated event is a clue to the nature of the parallel construction and is itself a specific and unique event which we can use to tie the two accounts together.

There remains one difference though. How does God’s Wrath start? We must not forget that God’s Wrath happens coincidentally with the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament. Searching the passages which mention the sun/moon/star event and the Day of the Lord, three elements manifest themselves as happening as desolations on the Day of the Lord, blood, fire, and smoke (Joel 2:30).

Not without coincidence, in the account of the one ‘seven’ in Revelation chapters 13-16, immediately after the Harvest an Angel comes not from the clouds but from out of the Temple where the Scroll is opened and he begins to heap the tares which had been collected (a different verb in Mt 13 from the gathering of the wheat) and blood comes from the winepress of God’s Wrath. Likewise with the first Trumpet, a source for fire is revealed. Smoke naturally results from fire and in addition, in the Psalms, God will make the mountains “smoke” as volcanoes do when they form ash clouds. As bad as Iceland was for Europe, imagine the caldera which is Yellowstone affecting the whole of North America!

So when the Scroll is opened, and the desolations God has decreed go forth, the avenging Angel of Revelation 14 and the first Trumpet go forth. This will probably be concurrent actions, but for order, I’ll put blood before fire in deference to Joel 2:30.

The Bowl Judgments of Rev 13-16 will be placed after the seventh Trumpet of the Seal/Scroll chronology filling in that blank and preserving the Biblical prophetic fact that they come last, and show the depth of God’s Wrath. Finally after the one ‘seven’ is over, the desolations will have fallen on the desolator, the anti-Christ and he will be done away with entirely as Paul wrote.

  • Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
  • Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
  • First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
  • Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
  • Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
  • Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
  • Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
  • Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
  • Seventh Trumpet
    • First Bowl - Sores on Man
    • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
    • Third Bowl - All water to blood
    • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
    • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
    • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
    • Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.
  • End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.
Now we can assemble the last part and have one list combining two of the parallel accounts within Revelation with the Olivet Discourse and Daniel 9:27:

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
  • Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
    • He wages war against the Saints.
    • We are to endure patiently
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
  • Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
    • Two laws
    • Great Tribulation
  • Sun/moon/star event.
  • Mustering the 144,000
  • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
  • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
  • Martyr's deeds will be remembered.
  • Gathering Elect/Harvest from the clouds
  • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
  • Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
  • Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
  • First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
  • Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
  • Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
  • Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
  • Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
  • Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
  • Seventh Trumpet
    • First Bowl - Sores on Man
    • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
    • Third Bowl - All water to blood
    • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
    • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
    • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
    • Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.
  • End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Thu May 06, 2010 7:27 am

I am going to make one little change to the list.

I am going to indent those actions which I see from the Bible are associated with the Day of the Lord.

This special, specific and unique event marks a fundamental change in the course of human events in prophecy: it is when Jesus once again has a direct hand in earthly affairs.

Once Jesus returns, He is perfectly able to transition between Heaven and Earth at will and as He determines. This freedom in mobility of our Lord is demonstrated not only death, when Jesus translated from Paradise, where He told the thief on His right they would be that day (after dying) but to the place where the spirits from the time of Noah are imprisoned (possibly the abyss between Paradise and Hades Jesus told us about in Luke 17 when discussing Lazarus the beggar’s afterlife – which is the only place in the Bible where we hear about the hereafter for us before Jesus comes again and resurrects the Dead in Christ from the “ends of Heaven”). Likewise after His Resurrection, Jesus demonstrated His ability to freely translate between Heaven and Earth in His multiple appearances to the Apostles and others.

So the summation here is that once Jesus returns, He can go wherever He wants between Heaven and Earth. He is not earth-bound as some would suggest. The Bible buttresses this point when it discusses the 144,000 who: “follow the Lamb wherever he goes.” – Rev 14:4b. By saying wherever, God’s Word suggests mobility. As Jesus has the ability to translate between the dimensions of this world and Heaven, that would be preserved in my eschatology.

Thus, Jesus can come on the Day of the Lord, step on Mount Zion (the Mount of Olives), split it in two, muster the 144,000, go to the “ends of Heaven” to Paradise where the Dead in Christ rest and call them up (John 5:24-25) and them come back to earth on the clouds with them (1Th 3:13) whom He has just resurrected (1Th 4:16) and gather up those who still remain and are alive on the earth after the Great Tribulation has nearly decimated the Elect (Mt 24:31, Rev 14:14-16, 1Th 4:17) and deliver them to Heaven as the Great Multitude (Rev 7:9-17).

After a space of a little time, the seventh Seal is broken, allowing the deslations God the Father has decreed to go forth, and as part of the Wrath of God, Jesus tramples out His Wrath upon unrepenant Israel, who refused to believe and so be saved. God will not let up on Israel though, and He will shepherd a Remnant through the time of Jacob's trouble as the desolations wipe out the majority of man.

Since the Day of the Lord begins with the sun/moon/star event, that is listed first. Then comes the rescue of the Saints, and God’s Wrath follows with the Angel out of the Temple and the first Trumpet element of fire to make up the Wrath of God which does fall on natural Israel on the Day of the Lord from the Old Testament.

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
  • Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
    • He wages war against the Saints.
    • We are to endure patiently
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
  • Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
    • Two laws
    • Great Tribulation
  • Day of the Lord
    • Sun/moon/star event.
    • Mustering the 144,000
    • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
    • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
    • Martyr's deeds will be remembered.
    • Gathering Elect/Harvest from the clouds
    • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
    • Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
    • Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
    • First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
  • Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
  • Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
  • Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
  • Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
  • Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
  • Seventh Trumpet
    • First Bowl - Sores on Man
    • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
    • Third Bowl - All water to blood
    • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
    • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
    • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
    • Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.
  • End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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MarkT
 
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Re: Pre-Wrath Sequence of Events

Postby MarkT on Thu May 06, 2010 2:23 pm

Does this new list invalidate the integration of Paul's letter to the Thessalonians?

No! As a matter of fact, the basic sequence is the same, and so, integrating Paul's letter remains the same and what's more: Paul's sequence remains intact as well.

Here is the combined Revelation sequence of events combined with Paul's sequence of events in underline:

  • The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
  • Covenant with many prevailed by (Roman) ruler who will come.
  • Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
    • Rebellion occurs
    • Opposition and exaltation
    • He wages war against the Saints.
    • We are to endure patiently
    • Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
    • The “one” removed from the midst
  • Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination.
  • The Man of Lawlessness revealed
    • Two laws
    • Great Tribulation
  • Day of the Lord
    • Sun/moon/star event.
    • Jesus comes
    • Mustering the 144,000
    • 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
    • 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
    • Martyr's deeds will be remembered.
    • Gathering Elect/Harvest from the clouds
      • Dead in Christ rise
      • Those who are alive and remain rise
    • Great Multitude arrive in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
    • Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
    • Man of Lawless is undone
    • Avenging Angel - Blood for the Winepress of God's Wrath.
    • First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned.
  • Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood.
  • Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter.
  • Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck.
  • Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
  • Sixth Trumpet WWIII 13 months plus 1/3 of man killed.
  • Seventh Trumpet
    • First Bowl - Sores on Man
    • Second Bowl - All sea to blood
    • Third Bowl - All water to blood
    • Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
    • Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
    • Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
    • Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake.
  • End of one seven with desolations poured out on the desolator.
  • Man of Lawlessness is done away with entirely.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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MarkT
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:22 am


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