"He as God sitteth in the temple of God"

[Abiding in His Word]

The measuring of the temple.....has to do with the Church...the Temple....and the court has nothing to do with the Church......it is left out....

And what exactly is the "court" that has nothing to do with the church?

The measuring has to do with the fullness or completion.....that the building...the temple which is the body of Christ is complete....the Church.

And this task is given to John by "someone"??

[lambslave]

The measuring is something that is a function of a ruler's septer κάλαμος ὅμοιος ῥάβδῳ. It calls to mind the measuring we find in the old testament when a king conquered a people 2 Sam 8:2. Allow me to quote from my book,
"This picture of ethnic Jewish believers being treated differently than gentile believers with whom they share a common identity in the body of Christ is consistent also with the pictures in Revelation 7, 12, 14, and 15. In Chapter 7 the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel share a common identity as servants of God with the great multitude of all the nations, but are distinguished by nationality and the act of sealing. In chapter 12, "the woman" (12:1) and "the rest of her offspring" (12:17) share identity as those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus" but are distinguished in the exclusively Jewish-Christian treatment ("place prepared by God," "nourished," two wings of the great eagle") given her by God during the career of the dragon. In chapter 14 the 144,000 are with the Lord on Mount Zion as "firstfruits" of the Lord's harvest, singing a song no others could learn, while an undesignated group "who had come off victorious from the beast" (15:2) sing the Lors's praises with the phrase, "all the nations will come and worship before You." This last group only comes into our view after the 144,000 are with the Lord, and the subsequent scene off harvest is described (14:14-16). This singling out of a believing Jewish remnant for a powerful prophetic ministry during the time of the great tribulation was prophesied by Joel (Joel 2:28ff) and was repeated by the assembled saints on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:17). Joel said that the Spirit was to be poured out upon the sons of Israel without distinction between age, sex, or class resulting in a ministry of prophecy annd the display of God's power. (Sounds like the two witnesses to me)
Lambslave

[Abiding in His Word]

The measuring is something that is a function of a ruler's septer κάλαμος ὅμοιος ῥάβδῳ. It calls to mind the measuring we find in the old testament when a king conquered a people 2 Sam 8:2.

Thank you, lambslave. So again, I ask:

And this task is given to John by "someone"??

Rev 11:1 Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said

[lambslave]

Because of the contextual proximity of chapter 10 and the fact that the scroll John was instructed to eat came from the hand of the angel at the instruction of the voice from heaven, I believe we are within proper bounds to imply that John has received instruction from the same voice from heaven and been supplied by the same angel who supplied the scroll. Lambslave

[Abiding in His Word]

Because of the contextual proximity of chapter 10 and the fact that the scroll John was instructed to eat came from the hand of the angel at the instruction of the voice from heaven, I believe we are within proper bounds to imply that John has received instruction from the same voice from heaven and been supplied by the same angel who supplied the scroll. Lambslave

Thanks again, lambslave. So, are we to understand that (based on your previous definition of the measuring rod) that John is given the "ruler's scepter" to utilize?

The measuring is something that is a function of a ruler's septer κάλαμος ὅμοιος ῥάβδῳ. It calls to mind the measuring we find in the old testament when a king conquered a people 2 Sam 8:2.

Eating from the hand of an angel and utilizing a ruler's scepter are vastly different functions wouldn't you agree?

[lambslave]

Yes. Lambslave

[lambslave]

I will not be able to post aga in for about 2 hrs. I havea 9 am doctor's appt!

[Abiding in His Word]

Our Bodies are the Temple of God.....where the Holy Spirit dwells....We Worship God in Spirit and Truth...
Christ in you...the Hope of Glory....

Our Bodies become the house of God.....The Tabernacle where God Lives in You the Believer...
But in the end of days.....when the church falls away from the Truth.....the a/c spirit moves into the believers who
are deceived...
remember how Jesus warned that if it were possible the very elect would be deceived.....

Hello Mrs. B,

Please see some of the following metaphors:

Rev 3:12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God....

This is a metaphor
There is a "spiritual" pillar in the temple
There is a "literal" pillar in the temple

Gal 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

This is a metaphor
Paul likens believers steadfast walk with a athletic race
There is a "literal" Olympic race

Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

This is a metaphor
The "potter" is likened to God; the clay is likened to a believer
There is a "spiritual lump of clay
There is a "literal" lump of clay

2Timothy 2:3 Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

This is a metaphor
There is a "spiritual" soldier
There is a "literal" soldier

Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day......

This is a metaphor
There is "spiritual" armor
There is "literal" armor

Paul was sent as an ambassador to the Gentiles. He therefore uses a number of metaphors to compare the spiritual things of the Jews to the spiritual things of believers. He does so to give them a "point of reference" in their understanding of the truth he is conveying. See the following metaphors with this in mind:

Heb 13:10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.
Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp.

This is a metaphor.
There is a "spiritual" altar
There is a "literal" altar [Jews}

1Cor. 3:16 Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

This is a metaphor
There is a "spiritual" temple (believer)
There is a "literal" temple [Jews]

Again, Paul uses many metaphors related to Olympic games, the Jewish traditions and practices, and military functions as well. We must learn to differenciate between them and what analogy he is endeavoring to make to those Gentiles who could relate to his comparisons. This is not always easy, but if we understand his mission to Gentiles, pagans, etc., his purpose in using metaphors will become clear.

[ampersand]

Is Jesus' body - a temple of God - a metaphor for a building?
Is the Heavenly temple of the Father - a temple of God - a metaphor for a building?
Is the body of the believer - a temple of God - a metaphor for a building?

So the only true temple is the building and all others are metaphors?

OR

Is the building the actual metaphor for all of the actual true, literal temples of God?

There are the explicit statements from the mouth of God that He does not dwell in temples made with hands. He does, however, dwell in the other three temples. So, to me at least, it becomes clear that the building is the metaphor. Just because we use the word "temple" to refer to buildings, doesn't mean that the phrase "temple of God" refers only to buildings and whenever it is used to refer to non-buildings, it is being used metaphorically.

It's also interesting to note that the description "literal, physical temple of God" applies to the body of the believer, the body of Jesus Christ, and a building EQUALLY WELL, so it cannot be used to 'distinguish' between a building or a body.

in Christ,
&

(with all of that said, I also do not support the idea that an "Antichrist" will sit in the "temple of God" that is the believer's body. It is not supported by Scripture. Furthermore, I also don't see an evidence in Scripture that an "Antichrist" will sit in a "temple of God" that is a physical building. In fact, there is no evidence in Scripture that an "Antichrist" will sit in any "temple of God.")

[ampersand]

Hebrews 9:
1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The structural, earthly tabernacles were all metaphors/shadows of the perfect temple of God. All of the ordinances of the structural, earthly tabernacles were metaphors for the perfect redemption accomplished by Christ. It's not the other way around. The spiritual is in fact the literal from God's perspective. God is the One speaking in the letters to the Thessalonians and Hebrews, so when I read these letters, I am readings things from His perspective, not mine.

in Christ,
&

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the temple of God.....


Is God a metaphor?

We cannot see Him.......so is He a metaphor?


God is a Spirit.....

He created man in His Image.....flesh and blood and spirit....body, soul and spirit...

My Word is Spirit.......and it is Life

The Temple is what we see but it represents an Invisible Temple in Heaven...
Abraham sought for a City......whose Builder and Maker is God...
Not Jerusalem the city we see to day......but Abraham sought for the New Jerusalem....The Holy City Gods Holy City...
Abraham never saw Jerusalem the city in Israel today......He saw an Heavenly City...
So did Ezekiel.....He saw the Heaenly Jerusalem .......He was taken by the Spirit into the heavenlys and saw the Heavenly Jerusalem......not made with hands..
but he was told to mesure it.....
God is a Spirit and they that worship Him Must Worship Him in Spirit and Truth...

Not in the Flesh.....but in the Spirit
The things you see is a metaphor.........of things you do not see
Jesus told Parables.....stories.....they were Spiritual truths to teach a spiritual lesson......
they were stories....but were spiritual Truths.....to teach a spiritual truth...
That which is flesh is flesh.....and That which is Spirit is Spirit
Marvel not that I say....Ye Must Be Born Again....
Born of the Spirit

All the Prophets.......were caught up by the Spirit......and saw spiritual truths...
Dreams....visions....which had application to us today.....but are revealed by the Holy Spirit
that which is Spirit is spirit....that which is flesh is flesh...
Jesus took natural experiences to teach a spiritual lesson..

But Now.....He has given the Church..... the Believers the Holy Spirit....
and Jesus said.....when the Spirit of Truth is come....He, the Spirit will lead and guide you into ALL Truth...

We must have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to understand Spiritual things...
That is why Jesus said....Go to Jerusalem and wait for the Promise of the Father...The Baptism of the Holy Spirit...

This is part of the falling away today.....it is not taught in the Churches....
we were taught that it all passed away with the disciples....
but that is not true......that is a lie
We must be born of the Spirit of God to understand spiritual truths......

If you ask Jesus....He will filll you with the Holy Spirit.......
Ask and Believe....The Spirit is for All Believers if they will Believe......
You must believe that Jesus is the Christ....and that He will Give You His Holy Spirit if you Ask for it..
The Holy Spirit Reveals the Word to us.....
you cannot understand the Word without the Holy Spirit...

The natural mind is an enemy to the cross...
Natural mind....natural reasoning....carnal thinking....
without the Spirit you cannot SEE
and without the Spirit you cannot HEAR

Jesus said....Hear What the Spirit is saying to the Church
He that has Ears (Spiritual ears) let him hear what the Spirit is Saying to the Church...

The Early Church Walked by the Spirit
but we have fallen away from walking by the leadership of the Holy Spirit


You cannot understand Revelations unless you have the Holy Spirit....

Notice this...
Daniel 8:16....And I heard a man's voice between the banks of U-lai, which called, and said, GABRIEL , make
this man to UNDERSTAND THE VISION...

17....So he came near where I stood:
and when he came, I was Afraid, and Fell upon my face:
but he said unto me, UNDERSTAND, O SON OF MAN:
For at the time of the end shall be the vision...

19....And he said, Behold, I Will Make Thee Know what shall be in the LAST END....OF THE INDIGNATION:

(NOTICE...the last end..of the indignation) the last end the 2300 days..the end of the end)
for at the time appointed the end shall be...

20....The ram which thou sawest having two horn are the kings of Media and Persia (Iran and Iraq)

the end of the end.....

23....And in the latter time of their Kingdom, when the Transgressors are come to the full...(When our sins are Full)\
a king of fierce countenance, and Understanding Dark Sentences, Shall Stand UP.

24....And His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall Destroy the Mighty and the Holy People.
(the mighty and the holy people are the Church....the Spirit Filled Church)
the church...then Jew and Gentile that are saved... They are Gods Holy People.......
also God is doing a short work with Israel.....many are being saved right now...today... when they are born again and saved....then are they added to the church and are God's Holy People.....this is the short work God is doing today...
calling the Jews (Jesus brethen or the tribe of Judah to Jesus)


25....And through his policy(the a/c) also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand...(Prosperty, craft to prosper in his hand this is where the mark comes in.....you cannot buy or sale without the mark...Craft to Prosper in His Hand)
and he shall Magnify himself in his heart.....and By Peace shall destroy many:
he shall also stand up against the Prince of Princes; (he will be here when Jesus the prince of princes comes)
but he shall be broken with out hand....
II Thess. 2:8...And then shall that Wicked be Revealed, Whom the Lord shall consum with The Spirit of His Mouth..
and shall destroy with the Brightness of His Coming: (with the Word of His Power, the Spirit of His Mouth, spoken word)

Daniel 9:22b.....O Daniel, I am now come forth to Give Thee Skill and UNDERSTANDING...

23...At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I Am come to shew thee;
for thou art Greatly Beloved:
THERE FORE UNDERSTAND THE MATTER.....And consider the Vision....

24....Seventy Weeks are determined upon thy people and upon the holy city...
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins
and to make reconciliation for iniquity
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy
and to Anoint the most Holy...
25....Know therfore and UNDERSTAND
that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah..
the Prince shall be seven weeks,
and threescore and two weeks:
the street shall be built again,
and the wall,
even troublous times
26....And after threescore and two weeks,
shall the Messiah be cut off,
but not for himeslf:
and the people of the prince that shall come
shall destroy the city and the sanctuary;
and the end thereof shall be with a flood,
and unto the end of the war desolaltions are determined.
27...And He (Jesus) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
(this is the 2300 days)
and in the midst of the week (1260 days)
he (Jesus) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...

what does that mean......if the blood sacrifice ceased then the doors in heaven are closed...and no one can be saved until after the 7 viols of the wrath of God are poured out on the desolator)

the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations...he (Jesus) shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation, (the marriage) and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.......


Matt. 24:15.....When Ye Therefore shall see the Abomintion of Desolation, Spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the Holy Place....(the church?the fallen away from truth..deceived by false teaching, false doctrine) (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

21....For then shall be Great Tribulations.....such as was not since the Beginning of the World....to this time, no, nor ever shall be...
23....And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened....

Jesus said...the AOB Spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the Holy PLace....
(Whoso Readeth, Let Him Understand:)
we must get back to the Word......not tradition....but take a Fresh Look at What saith the Lord....the Living Word...

Daniel 8:16....And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said,
Gabriel, Make this man to Understand the Vision...

Make Daniel to Understand the Vision
and Jesus said in Matt 24:15 when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place........whoso readeth...Let Him Understand...
Jesus is talking to you and me.....it is His Will that We Understand this Vision....given to Daniel the Prophet

It can only be understood by the Holy Spirit.....His Spirit has to reveal it to each person who seeks to understand...

24....For there shall arise false Christ, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect...
25...Behold, I have told you before.......



Mrs. B

[lambslave]

Abiding in His Word. The difference in the two instructions are not really unexpected, in light of the fact that the first, eating the scroll, invites almost anything to follow.... I would hesitate to substitute or suggest any other source for the voice that instructs John. I would simply observe that it is a voice with an authority that John certainly responds to, and which we are not notified as readers is in any way interfering with the continuing Revelation. Lambslave.

[Shelby]

Hey, Rhetorical questions here...

How do you eat a scroll?
How does fire shoot out of the two witnesses mouths?
How is Jesus a Lion and a Lamb?
How does God write His name on peoples foreheads?
Can you literally see the letters?



Rev. 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

[Abiding in His Word]

We must have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit to understand Spiritual things...

Thank you, Mrs. B. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit 35 yrs. ago. We simply disagree about which temple the literal antichrist will stand up in. Paul compares the believer's body as a dwelling place for the Holy Spirit to a literal temple which the Jews worshipped in. They will build a future literal temple and as we know, already have the priestly garments and other artifacts assembled.

So if you are attributing this measuring of the temple as assessing the condition of a believer's "temple", what is the "outer court" that is outside the temple and given to the nations?

Rev 11:2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

[lambslave]

Abiding in His Word. I would be inclined to agree with you about the individual Christian who is a temple of the Holy Spirit. That is certainly not the meaning in Revelation 11:1 and forward. The temple as a term figurative of the church consisting of believing Jews (those who worshipped at the altar in the Jewish temple), the place of believing gentiles who came to worship the God of Israel (the outter court). Here God is using the fact that the temple in Jerusalem was a picture of the church which would be built by Jesus and be standing in apostasy in end-times. The apostate portion, primarily gentile, the outer court, the standing portion, the believing Jews. He draws a line between the two groups because he intends to deal with them in a different manner during the end-times. We see this repeated theme throuhout the Book of Revelation. Some of you will evenually see it. Both groups belong to him and are members of His church, the seven churches in view in chaps 2-3, 5 fallen gentile churches, 2 jewish churches; the woman and her offspring chapter 12; 144,000 and the great multitude, chapter 7; This book is really quite simple. the cookies have always been on the bottom shelf-- but we have been too blind and self centeredd to see them. lambslave

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the temple of God......


When the a/c appears as a man in the flesh......and if a temple is built....it is possible....but I do not see that...

Fourty years ago.....when we lived in Texas....I had a Yard sale...
and a Young Jewish Levy came to my sale....this was 40 years ago....they then were studying the law and going to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple and they were training young Jewish men to be Priest in the Temple...
Now saying that......to make some of you happy....my husband thinks there will probably be a temple....so again
I just don't see it....as of yet......but I know many are looking for the Temple to be rebuilt....and the a/c standing in hte temple...

But what is happening today....the falling away is the a/c spirit standing in the church....and deceiving if possible the very elect???



Eating the little book...
You see this happened to Ezekiel
Ezekiel 2:7....And thou shalt speak My Words unto them (the children of Israel) whether they will hear or whether they will forbear: for they are MOST REBELLIOUS...

8...bUT THOU, SON OF MAN, HEAR What I say unto thee:
BE NOT THOU REBELLIOUS LIKE THAT Rebellious House:
Open thy Mouth, and Eat that I Give thee..

9....And when I looked, Behold, an hand was sent unto me;
and, LO, A ROLL OF A BOOK WAS THEREIN:

10....And he spread it before me;
and it was written within and without:
and there was written therein LAMENTATIONS, AND MOURNING, AND WOE.....

9:1....Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, EAT that thou findest;
Eat This Roll, and GO Speak unto the House of Israel.

2...So I opened My Mouth, and he caused me to Eat that ROLL.

3...And He said unto me...Son of Man, Cause thy belly to Eat, and fill thy Bowels with this roll that I give thee.
Then did I Eat It;
and it was in My Mouth as Honey for Sweetness...

4.....And He said unto me, Son of Man, Go, Get thee unto the House of Israel, and Speak with My Words unto them.

5...For thou art not sent to a People of s Strange Speech and of an Hard Language, But to The HOUSE OF ISRAEL;

YOU READ THE REST OF THIS CHAPTER....

Because I Believe....
Rev. 10:8.....But in the days of the Voice of the SEVENTH ANGEL.....When He shall begin to Sound, The Mystery of God
Should be finished, as He hath Declared to his servants the prophets...
(notice Begins to Sound)

Then the Angel tells John to eat the little Book......

This is what I See...
This is the short Work that God will do with Israel...

the seventh angel begins to sound.......and 1260 days later after the witnesses give their testimoney....and are killed...
Rev. 11:14.....The second woe is past; and behold the third woe cometh quickly,
15....And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED;
and there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The Kingdoms of this wold are become the Kingdoms of Our Lord, and of His Christ;
and He shall Reign forever and ever....

This is the Short work with Israel in Jerusalem....when the a/c or beast stands and if a Temple then a Temple...but this would be to plain......how can we be deceive when we see him in the temple...? that would be obveious......so to me if we are going to be deceived it has to be in the body of Christ the Church......deceiving if possible the very elect....
the a/c spirit.....seated in the church, the body of christ, deceving if possible the very elect....

But the Lamatations, Mourning and Woe, or for the Jew....the last 1260 days...

Jesus said....I come in My Name and you will not receive me....but another will come in His own name and Him you will receive....This is about the a/c....the Jews will receive Him...this is what Jesus said......



Shelby....I don't know how He John or Ezikiel ate the Roll but they did......Maybe it was like a cinnmon roll...sweet then bitter........just kidding...

Mrs. B

[lamb7]

Mrs. B, you know I have the utmost respect for you and the things you write, but we must also be aware that satan/AC's purpose is not only to try and deceive the "elect", but also to keep all who they can from turning to Christ in those very last days.

I think this is important to view as the Lord goes to great lengths to "warn" the world of what is to come and of His utter power, but also the ministry of the two witnesses and that of the 144,000 whose very purpose is to bring as many as possible to Christ, as is also the purpose of us, the "elect", even unto death, both them and us.

I believe it is within God's purpose and plan to allow a temple to be built and for the unbelieving and "not all truly" jewish in Israel to begin the sacrifices again. Yes, we know they are wrong and that Jesus made it obsolete, but they do not as yet, believe, so it makes perfect sense that they will do these things, as they are a part of God's overall plan and prophecy...and still the "apple" of God's eye.

Yes, we, the church are the "temple", but there will, in fact, according to scripture, also be a literal temple, imho. As Abiding has shown, for every metaphor, there is also a literal thing. Why refer to the "church" as the "temple", a thing that is no longer relevant to some, if it is not to be understood that it is still relevant in the end times? Why use this word at all when referring to the "church" in a future context if the word "temple" is not relevant in the literal?

As well, the AC is only a creature of God, being of "the seed" of satan, and cannot "sit" within any individual, even if they release the Holy Spirit within them in apostasy. Yes, satan and his minions can "inhabit" an individual, but not the AC. It states that the AC will "sit" within the "temple". For me...this is impossible if we are speaking of the "temple" being each individual of the "church".

Even if the AC is a product of being "inhabited", himself, by satan...it clearly states the AC, the man, will sit in the temple and proclaim to be God...not satan. That is "his", the AC's purpose...to be a man that deceives all of mankind, if possible, including the "elect"...to bring them all in worship of the beast...who is his father and creator of this utter lie...the prince of lies. There must be a "lie" to begin with and the AC stands as this "lie", otherwise satan needs nothing tangible in order to deceive, so he must have something tangible to present as the lie...a man...and man cannot inhabit man, even if only half man.

Unless, of course, the AC, too, is only a metaphor for the spirit of satan??? How far must we take scripture in the metaphor stance...until everything is only metaphor and the Word of God, Jesus Christ, has become a wonderful, wonderful story or fable?




In Christ,
lamb

[lamb7]

Okay, Ampersand, you obviously deleted your post, and here I was responding to it:

Unfortunately, the idea of a future "sitting" in the "temple of God" is untenable and cannot be assumed as 'fact' in this discussion. God clearly states that the man of sin/son of perdition "as God sitteth in the temple of God."

If you use "sitteth", that is PRESENT TENSE.
In the Greek, the word is "sat," which is PAST TENSE, and makes everything even more interesting.
Clearly, it is not "will sit." A clever argument is required to support a future "sitting" in 2Thess2 - one that I haven't even seen presented yet. 2Thess2 is the topic of this thread, by the way.

The only future events in 2Thess2 are (not in any particular order):

1. The Apostasy
2. the revelation of the man of sin/son of perdition
3. a strong delusion
4. the day of Christ
5. the destruction of the son of perdition/them that perish.

So, whether one believes in a "spiritual sitting" or a "physical sitting" is secondary to the statement that the "sitting" was already past tense in Paul's day.

in Christ,
&

Ampersand,

The whole context of the verse in question is of the future, and therefore, within the context of that future time.

To take one word and proclaim it alone is "past tense" is just, debating for the sake of debating and nit-picking the scripture for that explicit purpose, imo.

Does not the common sense and Truth of the Holy Spirit convict you of the meaning of this one word within the context of the whole scripture?

Seriously.

What translation is this that you use? The KJV? The word "sittith" in the Greek can also be seen being used as, using the same exact Greek usage. What of these other verses?

2Th 2:4 Who 3588 opposeth 480 and 2532 exalteth 5229 himself above 1909 all 3956 that is called 3004 God 2316, or 2228 that is worshipped 4574; so 5620 that he 846 as 5613 God 2316 sitteth 2523 in 1519 the temple 3485 of God 2316, shewing 584 himself 1438 that 3754 he is 2076 God 2316.

Concordance Results (KJV)
Strong's G2523 - kathizō: καθίζω
Transliteration: kathizō
Pronunciation: kä-thē'-zō (Key)

Part of Speech: verb
Root Word (Etymology): Another (active) form for καθέζομαι (G2516)
TDNT Reference: 3:440,386
Vines
View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to make to sit down
a) to set, appoint, to confer a kingdom on one
2) intransitively
a) to sit down
b) to sit
1) to have fixed one's abode
2) to sojourn, to settle, settle down

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 48
AV — sit 26, sit down 14, set 2, be set 2, be set down 2, continue 1, tarry 1


Strong's Number G2523 matches the Greek καθίζω (kathizō), which occurs 50 times in 46 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV
Page 1 / 2 (Mat 5:1 - Jhn 8:2)
(More Info)

Mat 5:1 And 1161 seeing 1492 the multitudes 3793, he went up 305 into 1519 a mountain 3735: and 2532 when he 846 was set 2523 , his 846 disciples 3101 came 4334 unto him 846:

Mat 13:48 Which 3739, when 3753 it was full 4137 , they drew 307 to 1909 shore 123, and 2532 sat down 2523 , and gathered 4816 the good 2570 into 1519 vessels 30, but 1161 cast 906 the bad 4550 away 1854.

Mat 19:28 And 1161 Jesus 2424 said 2036 unto them 846, Verily 281 I say 3004 unto you 5213, That 3754 ye 5210 which 3588 have followed 190 me 3427, in 1722 the regeneration 3824 when 3752 the Son 5207 of man 444 shall sit 2523 in 1909 the throne 2362 of his 846 glory 1391, ye 5210 also 2532 shall sit 2523 upon 1909 twelve 1427 thrones 2362, judging 2919 the twelve 1427 tribes 5443 of Israel 2474.

Mat 20:21 And 1161 he said 2036 unto her 846, What 5101 wilt thou 2309 ? She saith 3004 unto him 846, Grant 2036 that 2443 these 3778 my 3450 two 1417 sons 5207 may sit 2523 , the one 1520 on 1537 thy 4675 right hand 1188, and 2532 the other 1520 on 1537 the left 2176, in 1722 thy 4675 kingdom 932.

Mat 20:23 And 2532 he saith 3004 unto them 846, Ye shall drink 4095 indeed 3303 of my 3450 cup 4221, and 2532 be baptized 907 with the baptism 908 that 3739 I 1473 am baptized with 907 : but 1161 to sit 2523 on 1537 my 3450 right hand 1188, and 2532 on 1537 my 3450 left 2176, is 2076 not 3756 mine 1699 to give 1325 , but 235 [it shall be given to them] for whom 3739 it is prepared 2090 of 5259 my 3450 Father 3962.

Mat 23:2 Saying 3004 , The scribes 1122 and 2532 the Pharisees 5330 sit 2523 in 1909 Moses 3475' seat 2515:

Mat 25:31 When 1161 3752 the Son 5207 of man 444 shall come 2064 in 1722 his 846 glory 1391, and 2532 all 3956 the holy 40 angels 32 with 3326 him 846, then 5119 shall he sit 2523 upon 1909 the throne 2362 of his 846 glory 1391:

Mat 26:36 Then 5119 cometh 2064 Jesus 2424 with 3326 them 846 unto 1519 a place 5564 called 3004 Gethsemane 1068, and 2532 saith 3004 unto the disciples 3101, Sit ye 2523 here 847, while 2193 3757 I go 565 and pray 4336 yonder 1563.

Mar 9:35 And 2532 he sat down 2523 , and called 5455 the twelve 1427, and 2532 saith 3004 unto them 846, If any man 1536 desire 2309 to be 1511 first 4413, [the same] shall be 2071 last 2078 of all 3956, and 2532 servant 1249 of all 3956.

Mar 10:37 1161 They said 2036 unto him 846, Grant 1325 unto us 2254 that 2443 we may sit 2523 , one 1520 on 1537 thy 4675 right hand 1188, and 2532 the other 1520 on 1537 thy 4675 left hand 2176, in 1722 thy 4675 glory 1391.

Mar 10:40 But 1161 to sit 2523 on 1537 my 3450 right hand 1188 and 2532 on 1537 my 3450 left hand 2176 is 2076 not 3756 mine 1699 to give 1325 ; but 235 [it shall be given to them] for whom 3739 it is prepared 2090.

In Christ,
lamb

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the temple of God......




I do not believe the body of Christ is all divided up...by Gentile or Jew....I believe the Body of Christ is ONE....

Many members but all one...

Eph 1:9....Having made Know Unto Us...THE MYSTERY OF HIS WILL...according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself:
10.....That in the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times.....He Might Gather Together in ONE All things in Christ,
Both which are in Heaven and Which are On Earth; Even HIM....

In whom also We have obtained an Inheritance...Being Predestinated according to the purpose of Him who Worketh All Things after the Counsel of His Own Will:
That we should be to the praise of His Glory, Who first Trusted in Christ.
In Whom ye ALSO Trusted After Ye Heard the Word of Truth....
The Gospel of Your Salvation:
In Whom also after that ye believed,
YE WERE SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE....

Which is the Earnest of Our Inheritance...Until the Redemption of the Purchased Possession,
Unto the Praise of His Glory...

Wherefore I also,
After I heard of Your Faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the Saints,
Cease Not to Give Thanks for you.....making mention of you in MY Prayers;
That the God of Our Lord Jesus Christ,
The Father of Glory, May give unto you The Spirit of Wisdom and
Revelation in the Knowledge of Him:

The Eyes of Your Understanding being enlightened;
that ye may know what is the Hope of His Calling,
and what the Riches of the Glory of His Inheritance in the SAINTS,
And what is the Exceeding Greatness of His Power
To Us-Ward who believe, according to the Working of Him Mighty Power,
Which he Wrought in Christ, when He Raised Him from the dead,
and Set Him At His Own Right Hand in the Heavenly PLaces,
Far Above all Principality, and Power, and Might, and Dominion,
and Every Name that is Namd,Not only in this World...
BUT Also in that Which is to come:

And hath put ALL Things Under His Feet,
and Gave Him
TO BE THE HEAD OVER ALL
THINGS TO THE CHURCH........Which Is His Body, the Fulness of Him that Filleth ALL IN ALL.......


2:11......Wherefore Remember...that Ye being in Time Past Gentiles in the Flesh...
Who are called Uncircumcision by that which is Called The Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12...That at that Time Ye Were Without Christ...Being Aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from The Coenants of Promise...
Having No Hope, and without God in the World:
BUT NOW In Christ Jesus Ye who sometimes were far off....are made nigh by The Blood of Christ.

For He is Our Peace, Who hath made BOTH... BOTH ONE,
And hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having Abolished in His Flesh the Enmity, even the law of Commandments contained in Ordinances;
for to m ake in HIMSELF OF TWAIN ONE NEW MAN, So making Peace;

And that He Might Reconcile Both Unto God in One Body by the Cross,
having slain the enmity thereby:

And Came and Preached Peace to You which were afar Off, and to Them that were Nigh.
For THROUGH HIM......We Both Have Access BY ONE SPIRIT UNTO THE FATHER....

Now therefore ye are NO More Strangers and Foreigners,
But Fellowcitizens with the Saints, and of the Household of God..

And are built upon the Foundation of the Apostles and Prophets,
Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Corner Stone;

In Whom all the Building Fitly Framed Together Groweth Unto
AN HOLY TEMPLEL IN THE LORD:

22.....In Whom Ye also are Builded Together for
AN HABITATION OF GOD THROUGH THE SPIRIT........


Eph 3:6....That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the SAME BODY
and Partakers of His Promise in Christ by the Gospel:

9....And to make All Men See what is the Fellowship of the Mystery,
which from the beginning of the World hath Been Hid in God,
Who Created ALL Things by JESUS CHRIST

10....To the intent that NOW.......
Unto the Principalities and Powers in Heavenly Places Might be Known
by the Church the Manifold Wisdom of God.......



If the Jew are Saved it will because they See Jesus....and come to Him
He is the Door
The Only door
He has fulfilled all that was written about Him....and Now Only If a Jew sees Him and comes to Him will he be saved...
The Church is His Body......
He is the Only Way.....
There is ONLY ONE BODY


Mrs. B

[Abiding in His Word]

He as God sitteth in the temple of God......


Lamb.....
I do not believe the body of Christ is all divided up...by Gentile or Jew....I believe the Body of Christ is ONE....

Many members but all one...

Hi Mrs. B,

I'm not speaking for lamb7, but of course all believers whether Jew or Gentile are one body. But the unbelieving (in Jesus) Jews are those who will build the temple are not part of the body of Christ.. Paul clearly recognized that those distinctions between Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, male & female are erased in Christ.

[ampersand]

Okay, Ampersand, you obviously deleted your post, and here I was responding to it...

Hi Lamb7 .
I deleted my post for a reason. I'm sorry I forced you to write such a lengthy response to a phantom post.
Your personal attack has been noted.
Your appeal to common sense has also been noted.
Please note my appeal to what actually came out of the mouth of God.

...

Thank you for the example of the other sentences that use this same verb. One of the reasons for my deletion of that post is the realization that the verb "sitteth" is in the aorist tense - not technically past, present, or future with respect to time. However, what 2Thess2:4 has is 5 other verbs that are clearly in the present tense that support the timing of the sixth action in question - "sitteth" - to also be in the present. All of 2Thess2:4 describes the "man of sin/son of perdition" in the present tense.

2:3 states that the "son of perdition" will be revealed (future). 2:4-7 states what he is doing now and what he is like now. In the future, he will be revealed. The mystery of iniquity will no longer be a mystery, because the one who is doing all of those things now will be revealed in the future. I'm reading clearly and in context, not assuming anything.


I invite you to read this whole thread (or at least the second page) and see if your objections have not been addressed elsewhere.

in Christ,
&

[lambslave]

Abiding, The Body of Christ is spiritually always one. I agree. But functionally it is diverse all the times. 1 Cor 12. Males and females are one in Christ Jesus, but males do not stop being males, nor do females stop being females. Notice the signs on the restroom doors of your church. Same with the other classes noted by the often quoted and misrepresented apostle. The Holy City, the New Jerusalem that John is shown coming down out of heaven (Rev 21) is made up of Jews and gentiles, to the praise of His glory. One community sharing fellowship with the One God who dwells in them. They are all His people. HE is their God. lambslave

[Abiding in His Word]

Abiding, The Body of Christ is spiritually always one. I agree. But functionally it is diverse all the times. 1 Cor 12. Males and females are one in Christ Jesus, but males do not stop being males, nor do females stop being females.

Of course, lambslave! No one implied that one would stop being one sex or the other or that Jews will cease to be Jews. The distinctions by which man judges and compartmentalizes are not those that God judges by. Here is the context of God's distinctions:

The Lord does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart. 1 Sam. 16:7

Notice the signs on the restroom doors of your church.

Let's not forget that not too many years ago, signs on restroom doors differentiated between blacks and whites..... God does not see things as we do.

[watching]

lamb7, ampersand,

I just want to say that I know for a fact that in terms of how Greek is spoken today, καθισαι is past tense. However, after looking at how the word was used in all of the examples that lamb7 gave, I think I may have made a mistake by assuming that it would be the same in ancient Greek. Here is the word form of καθίζω (I seat) G2324 in all of the examples that lamb7 gave:

2 Thessalonians 2:4
4ο αντικειμενος και υπεραιρομενος επι παντα λεγομενον θεον η σεβασμα ωστε αυτον εις τον ναον του θεου ως θεον καθισαι αποδεικνυντα εαυτον οτι εστιν θεος

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (King James Version)

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

Matthew 5:1
1ιδων δε τους οχλους ανεβη εις το ορος και καθισαντος αυτου προσηλθον αυτω οι μαθηται αυτου

Matthew 5:1 (King James Version)

1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

Matthew 19:28
28ο δε ιησους ειπεν αυτοις αμην λεγω υμιν οτι υμεις οι ακολουθησαντες μοι εν τη παλιγγενεσια οταν καθιση ο υιος του ανθρωπου επι θρονου δοξης αυτου καθισεσθε και υμεις επι δωδεκα θρονους κρινοντες τας δωδεκα φυλας του ισραηλ

Matthew 19:28 (King James Version)

28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 20:21
21ο δε ειπεν αυτη τι θελεις λεγει αυτω ειπε ινα καθισωσιν ουτοι οι δυο υιοι μου εις εκ δεξιων σου και εις εξ ευωνυμων εν τη βασιλεια σου

Matthew 20:21 (King James Version)

21And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

Matthew 20:23
23και λεγει αυτοις το μεν ποτηριον μου πιεσθε και το βαπτισμα ο εγω βαπτιζομαι βαπτισθησεσθε το δε καθισαι εκ δεξιων μου και εξ ευωνυμων μου ουκ εστιν εμον δουναι αλλ οις ητοιμασται υπο του πατρος μου

Matthew 20:23 (King James Version)

23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Matthew 23:2
2λεγων επι της μωσεως καθεδρας εκαθισαν οι γραμματεις και οι φαρισαιοι

Matthew 23:2 (King James Version)

2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

Matthew 25:31
31οταν δε ελθη ο υιος του ανθρωπου εν τη δοξη αυτου και παντες οι αγιοι αγγελοι μετ αυτου τοτε καθισει επι θρονου δοξης αυτου

Matthew 25:31 (King James Version)

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Matthew 26:36
36τοτε ερχεται μετ αυτων ο ιησους εις χωριον λεγομενον γεθσημανη και λεγει τοις μαθηταις καθισατε αυτου εως ου απελθων προσευξωμαι εκει

Matthew 26:36 (King James Version)

36Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.

Mark 9:35
35και καθισας εφωνησεν τους δωδεκα και λεγει αυτοις ει τις θελει πρωτος ειναι εσται παντων εσχατος και παντων διακονος

Mark 9:35 (King James Version)

35And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

Mark 10:37
37οι δε ειπον αυτω δος ημιν ινα εις εκ δεξιων σου και εις εξ ευωνυμων σου καθισωμεν εν τη δοξη σου

Mark 10:37 (King James Version)

37They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

Mark 10:40
40το δε καθισαι εκ δεξιων μου και εξ ευωνυμων μου ουκ εστιν εμον δουναι αλλ οις ητοιμασται

Mark 10:40 (King James Version)

40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

As you can see from the above examples, the only two instances in which the exact form, καθισαι, is used (other than 2 Thessalonians 2) are Matthew 20:23 and Mark 10:40, however they are both preceded by το or 0το (I don't know about 0το, *edit:(I just realized the 0 was part of the verse number, 40 -- I thought it was the letter O -- my bad) but το means "the" -- so, in essence, both of those examples are saying "the" καθισαι, where as 2 Thessalonians 2 is not preceded by "the."

So, if anyone here knows ancient Greek,

Anyway, I'm sorry if I've mislead anyone. However, I'm still not sure if I was wrong or not. Maybe someone who knows ancient Greek will correct me if I'm wrong, hopefully.

But in the meantime, it would probably be wise not to put a whole lot of stock, if any, in anything I say. I'm not afraid to admit that I usually don't know what I'm talking about.



*edited (see above)
edited for correction

[watching]

I just wanted to add one more thing.

I don't know who's right, whether it's the King James Version, or the Young's Literal Translation, or some other translation, but, in any case, the Young's Literal Translation, has translated the word, καθισαι, as being in the past tense:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (Young's Literal Translation)

4who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God -- [the day doth not come].

[ampersand]

Hi watching, it's very good to have you back in these parts!

You know, when I went to the blueletterbible site and looked at this text and the verb tenses, I learned that in 2:4, all of the verbs are in the present tense except for "sitteth," which is in the aorist tense. I didn't know this before, but I think that this lends further support to my earlier claim that the subject of that verb ("sitteth") is "God" not "he." That one verb stands out and is set apart in its usage. I believe that the phrase "as God sitteth in the temple of God" is a subordinate clause that modifies "he" - the man of sin/son of perdition. That's why even the verb is different from the other forms - because it's referring to God, not the man of sin/son of perdition.

This is not an empty claim or conjecture. Who is the one who sits in the "temple of God" - in Scripture? In the Psalms and in Revelation, we see that God sits in His temple.



in Christ,
&

Reference: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... KJV#conc/4

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

I didn't know you could do that with the Blue Letter Bible. You'll have to explain to me how you were able to get all of that information to come up.

Anyway, I think you may be on to something, but I'm not exactly sure what the aorist tense is. I found the following explanation on the internet:

Aorist Tense
The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

For example: "God...made us alive together with Christ." Eph 2:5
"He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm

But, I'm still not sure if I understand it, exactly, to know for sure how to apply it to 2 Thessalonians 2. (I guess, this is getting a little too complicated for me.)



Anyway, whatever the proper tense, it appears that in most translations, they have decided to translate it in the present tense. http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/2-4.htm

(Just as a note, I don't trust most newer translations, being that we are, most likely, living in the age of apostasy in the church and all.)

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

I just realized, there is a word in the Greek, αόριστος (pronounced aoristos), which means indefinite; vague.

αόριστος = aorist, indefinite, uncertified, vague
aoristos
αόριστως = vaguely
aoristos

http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

I wouldn't be surprised if the word aorist, as in aorist tense, derived from this word or vice versa.

[lamb7]

Thank you for the example of the other sentences that use this same verb. One of the reasons for my deletion of that post is the realization that the verb "sitteth" is in the aorist tense - not technically past, present, or future with respect to time. However, what 2Thess2:4 has is 5 other verbs that are clearly in the present tense that support the timing of the sixth action in question - "sitteth" - to also be in the present. All of 2Thess2:4 describes the "man of sin/son of perdition" in the present tense.

Could that be because, as Jesus states,

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:

?

Of course, if he is already at work, then that would be present tense, but the context of the scripture is that of the future coming of Christ and His conquest of the said, "he".

Are you seriously in question of whether the AC will try to claim he is God in the future Tribulation or is it that you question a "physical" temple and are trying to prove that it is not physical?

Are you trying to state that Christ has already come? That the AC has already been unveiled and has already "sat" in the temple of God? Because what you put forth seems to point in that direction, imo.

I truly don't understand your purpose in any of this. Is this truly messing with your faith? Has it become a stumbling block for you? Do you really not understand this scripture? For you seem like an intelligent person with much understanding and I can't understand what really troubles you. What is it you are trying to say? You're pointing out grammatical things, but to what end?


In Christ,
lamb

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

I don't know why, but for some reason, your premise in your last post did not fully register with me, or completely sink in the first time I read it. I guess, I was still confused about the aorist tense. (We can talk more about that later.)

But first, I just want to say, (and, I hope you don't take this the wrong way), but, once again, I'm appalled at the conclusion that you have drawn.

I don't see why you would assume that just because the word "sitteth" in verse 2:4 happens to be in the aorist tense that it must be referring to God.

To help you see how I think verse 2:4 was meant to be understood, I thought it might be helpful if I were to add in some commas, although, I would first like to emphatically state that there are no commas in the original text. But, just for the sake of illustration, I thought it might be helpful, if I put in some commas, in order to contrast the way I believe you are understanding the text, as opposed to how I'm understanding it.

So, to illustrate my point, it appears to me that you are understanding the text in the following manner:

so that he, as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Whereas, I am understanding the text in the following manner:

so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

As you can see, the placement of the comma could conceivably make a big difference. (In English, that is.) However, this could not work in the original Greek, because, for one thing, if it was referring to God, specifically, then God would have been preceded by the Greek word for "the," so that phonetically it would have read "O theos" not just "theon." Does that make any sense?

But, besides that, I would imagine that there are tons (figuratively speaking, of course, because, I don't know how many there are, actually) of words written in the Bible that are in the aorist tense, but I can't imagine that all of those words must be referring to God. Can you?

Now getting back to the aorist tense. As you have probably guessed by now, I, really, don't know much about it. But, according to the website on NT Greek, which I have linked above, when the aorist tense is in the indicative mood, it is considered past tense. Here, I'll post that comment again:

In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

And here is an explanation of the indicative mood:

Indicative Mood
The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time. This 'statement of fact' can even be made with a negative adverb modifying the verb (see the second example).
This is in contrast to one of the other moods (see below) in which the writer/speaker may desire or ask for the action to take place.

For example: "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb."
Rev. 12:11 "God is not mocked." Gal. 6:7

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm

I think it's pretty clear that 2Thessalonians2:4 was written as a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's perspective. Here is the verse in question:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (King James Version)

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

However, when you contrast 2Thessalonians2 verse 4 with the other two examples that I gave earlier, in which the word "sit" is also in the aorist tense, I think it's much more clear in those examples that the word "sit" is in what is probably (I'm just guessing here, because, as I said before, I really don't know much about the aorist tense) the fullest sense of the aorist tense, because of the way these two verses are worded. Here, I will post them again:

Matthew 20:23 (King James Version)

23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Mark 10:40 (King James Version)

40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

As I pointed out before, in both of these examples, the word "sit" is preceded by the word "the," so that in both of these examples, according to the way the text is worded in the Greek, the Lord is essentially saying, "............but "the" "sit" (aorist tense) on my right, and on my left, is not mine to give.................."

Is this making any sense?

Anyway, to make a long story short, here is my point:

It seems to me that since 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is in the indicative mood, that although it is in the aorist tense, it is generally, from what I'm gathering, understood to be past tense. But, because it is in the aorist tense, it is not limited to a single, one time, occurrence in the past.

If my understanding is correct, then this fits in, perfectly, with the premise that I have been trying to explain all along in this thread as well as the AOD thread which you have cross-referenced above. And that is, that we know from history that this "type" of event has occurred before with anti-Christ "types." But we also know from scripture, that this "type" of event will ultimately repeat itself in the future.

My point in regard to 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is that, I don't think anyone can assume that there will necessarily be a humanly built Jewish temple on the Temple Mount, based on this one verse, with it's obvious complexities.

However, I do believe, that something at least similar will occur involving the "holy place," (which in the case of the absence of a temple, per chance, because I don't know if there will be a temple or not), then I would consider the "holy place" to most likely be the Temple Mount, itself.

At least that's how I'm understanding it.

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the Temple of God.....


Paul Writes.....

I Corinthians 6:19.......WHAT? KNOW Ye Not that Your Body is the TEMPLE of the HOLY GHOST...
WHICH IS IN YOU, which ye have of God.......and Ye are NOT Your Own?

To me this is so plain....
Paul is writting to the Corinthians that What? don't you know that your body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost
which is in you.....which ye have of God....and ye are not your own?


Why would the a/c wont to build a brick building to be worshipped in..?

He hates Christians......and their relationship with the Living God......
or I should say he is jealous......his desire it to set in the temple of God...the deceived believer and be as God....


II Thess. 2:3....LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS:
for that day shall not come...what day?
The day of the Lord....
EXCEPT there come a Falling Away First,
and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition:

4.....Who opposeth and exalteth himself above All that is Called GOD, or that is Worshipped:
SO He AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD......SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD....


Those christians who are deceived...
.Paul said.....let no man deceive you by any means that day shall not come except there is a falling away first.......

Before Jesus comes there is a Falling Away......? Falling Away from the Truth.......Being Deceived?
The Church being deceived believing another Gospel...
Look at the Catholic......see the falling away.....The Pope is the Head of the Church...

OK today....look at the children of the catholic church....are not we the daughters....the protestion churches?
they do not follow the pope....but they follow headquarters......men who take authority and teach what they
will allow to be preached or taught in their denominations......it this not the same...?
This the doctrine of the Nicolatitans...which thing I hate...
Read again Rev. 2 throu 3....
3:19...Behold, I stand at the door and knock: (the door of our Heart)\\
I stand at the door, and knock:
If any man hear My Voice, and Open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me...
21...To him that Overcometh will I grant to Sit With Me in My Throne,
even as I also Overcame, and am set down with My Father.....
22...He that Had An Ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches......

Falling Away From Truth....
As many as I Love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therfore, and repent.....


Why did Jesus warn again and again about being Deceived?
If we say we are following Jesus but we Believe another Doctrine......is this of God?.....is this not being Deceived?
Following another Christ? The a/christ? a Deceiver....Deceiving and being Deceived?

Our Bodies are where the Holy Spirit dwells....The Spirit of Truth.....We Follow Jesus...He is the Head of the Church...
and We are the Body.....The Body of Christ....Jesus is the Head.....If we Follow Truth...and not be deceived....

He, satan as God sitteth in the Temle of God....deceiving if possible the very elect......

This is the sign paul was talking about......

II Thess. 2:13...But We are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, Brethren Beloved of the Lord,
Because God hath from the Beginning Chose You to Salvation through Sanctification of the Spirit
and Belief of the Truth.....
15...Therefore Brethren, Stand Fast, and Hold the Traditions Which Ye Have Been Taught, whether by Word, or Epistle...

He that endureth unto the End Shall be Saved.......Seek Truth

Mrs. B

[lamb7]

He, satan as God sitteth in the Temle of God....deceiving if possible the very elect......Mrs. B

Mrs. B, Again, the passage does not state that it is "satan" who will "sitteth in the temple of God", it is the Antichrist, who will and claim to be "as God".

This makes a difference, in that if we are to believe that the temple refers to the "bodies" of believers, then it is impossible for the AC to have any part in "sitting" within a believer, for neither AC or satan can inhabit the heart, where the Holy Spirit resides, or even an apostate who has released the Holy Spirit, for the AC is but a man, even if half his seed is that of satan's angelic parentage, he cannot "sitteth" within the "temple" of the believer. And again, even if it is satan's spirit, indwelled...the body still belongs to that of a man.

We can take it that the "spirit" or the "mind" of satan, his lies the AC will speak...can come to rest in a believer at that time, this is true...his lies can be taken in as truth...but the physical man, must also have the physical...so we can have both a spiritual temple and a literal temple to contain both the spiritual lies (in the heart) and the physical, the man, the AC.

In my heart of hearts, I truly believe AC, a man, will place himself, within "whatever" constitutes the "holy place", where the sacrifice will be halted...a physical place and proclaim that he is, indeed God and demand to be worshipped and will kill those who refuse.

How we can reconcile all that is written that the AC WILL do with the idea that there is no physical place and still continue on with the utter murderous doings of AC and his demand to be worshipped, if it is only a metaphor? We cannot split up the scripture and take one thing and claim it is metaphor and then take the same events and claim they are literal. All it does is confuse.

Why can't man be compared to a temple, and there still be a temple? Am I making any sense at all? For me, it is quite clear.

In Christ,
lamb

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the temple of God.....


Stay with me........

Rev.11:1.....And there was given me a Reed....like unto a Rod;
and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and Measure the Temple of God,
and the altar, and them that worship there.......


Now keep in Mind....the Church is the Body of Christ....The Temple of the Holy Ghost.....
where the Holy Spirit Dwells in you the believer....

Ezekiel 40:1b....in the tenth day of the month, in the fourtenth year after that the city was smitten, in the self same day the hand of the Lord was upon me, and brought me thither...

2.....In the Visions of God Brought He Me into the land of Israel, and
set me upon a Very High Mountain, by which was the frame of a city on the south....

3.....And he brought me thither, and behold, There was a Man Whose Appearance was like the appearance of Brass,
with a Line of flax in his hand, and MEASURING REED; AND HE STOOD IN THE GATE.

4....AND THE MAN SAID UNTO ME,
Son of Man, Behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears,
and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee;
For to the Intent art thou brought hither:
Declare All that thou Seest to the house of Israel.....

5....And Behold a Wall on the Outside of the House Round About,
and in the man's hand a Measuring Reed of Six cubits Long by the Cubit and
an hand breadth:
so he Measured the Breadth of the Building, One Reed;
and the height, One Reed.......

Ez 43:1....Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east:
2...And, behold, theGlory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east:
and His voice was like a noise of Many Waters:
and the Earth shined with His Glory...

3...And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even accordsing to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city:
and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the River Chebar; and I fell upon My Face...

4...And the Glory of the Lord Came into the House by the Way of the Gate whose prospect is toward the East..
5....So the Spirit took me up, and Brought me into the Inner Court;
and, behold the Glory of the Lord Filled the House.....
6...And I heard Him Speaking unto me Out of the House;
and the man stood by me.

7....And he said unto me, Son of Man, the place of My Throne, and the Place of the soles of My Feet, Where I will dwell in the Midst of the Children of Israel for ever, and My Holy Name, shall the House of Israel No More Defile, neither they,
nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places...

8...In their setting of their threshold by My Thresholds, and their Post by My Posts, (for there was but a wall between me and them) and the wall between me and them...
They have even Defiled My Holy Name by their abominations that they have committed:
Wherefore I have consumed them in Mine Anger....

9....NOW let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever...

10....THOU SON OF MAN...SHEW THE HOUSE TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL,
That they may be ashamed of their iniquities:
and let them Measure the Pattern...(or sum Or number)

MEASURE....or sum or number

Notice this...
11....And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the House, and the fashion thereof,
and the comings in thereof, and all the form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof:
and write it in their sight, that they may Keep the Whole Form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them..

12....This is the Law of the House;
Upon the top of the Mountain the whole Limit thereof round about shall be MOST HOLY,
Behold, This is the Law of the House....


Hebrews 3:5...And Moses Verily was Faithful in all His House, as a Servant, for a Testimony of those thing which
were to be spoken AFTER;
6....BUT CHRIST.....AS A SON OVER HIS OWN HOUSE; whose HOUSE are WE;
If We Hold Fasts the Confidence and the Rejoicing of the hope firm unto the End......
7...Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To Day if ye will Hear His voice,
8...Harden Not Your Hearts, as in the Provocation, in the Day of Temptation in the Wilderness:

9..When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years...
10..Wherefore I Was Grieved with that Generation, and said..
They Do Alway Err in their Heart; and they have Not KNOWN MY REST)
12...TAKE HEED, BRETHREN, LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF, IN DEPARTING FROM THE lIVING GOD.

13...But exhort One another Daily, while it is called To Day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin...
14...For We Are Made Partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of Our Confidence Stedfast Unto the End;
15..While it is said, TODAY if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation....
18...And to whom sware he that they should not enter into His Rest...But to them that believed Not..
19...So We See that they could not Enter in...Because of Unbelief...


The Church is the House of God....The House of Christ....The Building of the Temple....
And Jesus is the Plumline...
He is the Corner Stone....

Every building has a Corner Stone.....and all Measurments are made from the cornerstone.....
Every piece of wood or stone has to line up with the cornerstone.....or the house will be build crocked...
Jesus said...Straight and Narrow is the Way and few there be that find it...
This is the Measring of the Temple....the House of God....that Jesus is the Builder...
Each piece must fit......Measusred.....
Measured with the Rod......it must line up to be fitted into the building...Jesus is the Cornerstone and we must line up with Him....

Rev. 11:1....And there was given me a reed like a rod:
and the angel stood, saying Rise and Measure the Temple of God...(the Church, temple of God, House of God)
and the altar, and them that worship therein...therein

The House of God is a Spiritual House.....We are the House......But Christ as a son Over His House; whose House are we;
if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end...


I Peter 2:9
9...But ye are a Chosen Generation, a Royal Priesthood, An Holy Nation, a peculiar People; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath Called you out of Darkness into his Marvellous Light....
10...Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God:
which had not obtained mercy, but Now have Obtained Mercy....

He is talkng about the Gentiles...

I Peter 4:17...For the time come that Judgment must Begin at the House of God:
and if it first begin at us, what shall the end of them that obey not the Gospel of God?

18...And if the Righteous Scarcely be saved, where shall the Ungoodly and the sinner appear?
19...Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the Keeping of their Souls to Him in Well doing, as unt a Faithful Creator...

the Measuring is the Church....The House, the Temple, we are called to walk righteouslly before Him....

Mrs. B

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the Temple of God.....

Lamb....he the devil does it by deception....he is a lier and there is No Truth in him....That is why Jesus warned about not being deceived....

I John 2:18.....Little Children, it is the last time:
and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
even now are they many antichrists;
whereby we know that it is the last time...

19...They went out from us...
but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us,
they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us....

20....But Ye have An Unction from the Holy One, and Ye Know All Things......


26....These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you...

27....BUT the Anointing which ye have Received of Him Abideth in you...and ye need not that any man teach you:
But as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is T ruth, and is not lie, and even as it hath taught you,
Ye shall Abide in Him..

28....And Now, Little Children...Abide in Him; that, When He shall Appear, we may have confidence,
and not be ashamed before Him at His Coming...

29....If Ye Know that He is Righteous,
Ye Know that Every One that Doeth Righteousness is Born of Him...


Learn to hear what the Spirit of God is speaking to you.....His Holy Spirit will bare witness to your spirit what is of
God and what is not
This is Learning how to be lead by the Holy Spirit.....

Jesus Promised He would never leave us or forsake us.....and you can take that to the Bank.....It is Solid...
It is His Promise......

The word Anti...is against Christ...he is very religious but he takes away from Jesus by deceiving people...causing them to believe a lie.....Jesus is the Truth.......Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life....there is not un truth in Him..
He Is Truth.....not alittle truth....but all truth....no lie is in Him....

Mrs. B

[Abiding in His Word]

the Measuring is the Church....The House, the Temple, we are called to walk righteouslly before Him.... Mrs. B

And what is the court that is given over to the gentiles which they will tread under foot for 42 months?

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the temple of God.....


Zech. 6:12b.....Behold the man whose name is The Branch (Jesus); and he shall grow up out of His Place, and he shall Build the Temple of the Lord:

13....Even He shall build the Temple of the Lord;
and he shall bear the Glory, and shall sit and rule upon His Throne
and He shall be a Priest upon His throne:
and the counsel of Peace shall be between them both..


How does He build His Temple?....

By the Holy Spirit...
He Calls You.....How by the Holy Spirit...and the Word...
you hear the word...and the Holy Spirit calls you...you believe.....you seek unto Him..

Zech 4:6....Then he answeed and spake unto me....
Saying.....Not by Might, Nor by Power....But by My Spirit Saith the Lord of Hosts....

The Holy Spirit and the Word...bring conviction
we hear the truth and the word and the Holy Spirit bring conviction.......
....The church is the eyes and the ears of the Lord.....God uses the Church to win the world to Jesus............we must walk the straight and narrow....we are the witness to the lost.....Jesus Lives in Us the believer.....Christ in you
the Hope of Glory....The Church is the Body of Christ on this earth....

But he the devil, satan, the antichrist, his desire is to sit in the temple, the body of Christ deceiving if possible the very elect.......The Church the Body of Christ, The Temple where the Holy Spirit lives.....


You Hear......You Believe.....you act by Faith and Obey and you are born again and added to the Body of Christ....
Then we must endure unto the end........we must be stead fast......endure through trials and tribulations...testings
be strong in the lord.....and stand....endure to the end...walk in Truth....amen

Mrs. B

[lamb7]

Mrs. B., what you post is beautiful, because it is the Word of God. Thank you, always for that. And I understand the illustration that scripture tries to portray at "times".

But, if I am to believe that all of that is purely metaphor and none of it is real...then it takes away my every hope and makes me believe that God and His son, are purely metaphor, who will continue to live "within" me, and I will never get to visually see them, as they truly are. Where is the "line in the sand" sort to speak, in scripture that shows me that I will one day "be" with my Lord, physically? When will I see His true glory, that which I cannot see now, for it would kill me? Will that beautiful city be real? Paved with gold...with doors as giant pearls? Is it too, just all a dream, one I can only "feel" within "me"?

That there will be no temple from where my Lord will rule? These statements cause me to doubt everything I read in scripture to be the Word of God, word for word, meaning exactly as they are written.

It also would make me doubt that the AC will even be a literal person, if he cannot sit in a literal temple, and that all of Revelation is a fictional story that allows me to love a God I will never see...He will always only be a "feeling" within me. I cannot accept this.

It makes me doubt hell, heaven, the angels and anything else I have read...if it is all a wonderful illustration of things to come...things that, like I said are beautiful, but things I will never truly experience.

Is there anything in the Word, that you can tell me is real, other than the Holy Spirit within me, and the love I have for my God? Because it goes against everything I feel within my own heart. I ask you this honestly, because if I have it all wrong, and what I have believed has been a lie, then I'm afraid I will feel exactly as I did when the JW told me I don't go to heaven, but only sleep....I was devastated and felt like a fool, but luckily I opened my Bible myself, for it didn't sit right with me and I allowed the Holy Spirit to guide me to the Truth it wished for me. Please...I am not making fun.

If the temple is not real...then the AC is not real for me and nothing else in scripture is either. How do you distinguish metaphor from the true experience that the Bible puts forth? For I understand that we, the church can be the "temple", but what of the future "temple of God", the one in which my Lord will reign from? Is it too, only a metaphor and life on this dreary planet will continue with a bunch of Christians, who will continue to live on with only our Lord living "within" us?


In Christ,
lamb

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the Temple of God......



Abiding....I have been searching for this since this morning.....

This is what I see.......

The Temple is the Body of Christ.......
Rise and mesure the Temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein...

Rev. 11:1...And there was given me a reed like unto a rod:
and the angel sttod saying, Rise and measure the Temple of God,
and the altar, and them that worship therein...

But the court which is without the Temple leave out (or cast out) and measure it not;
for it is given to the Gentiles......

Gentiles......un saved

Ps. 79:1.....O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance;
Thy Holy Temple have they defiled;
they have laid Jerusalem on heaps....


Ps. 74:2.....Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old;
the rod (or tribe) of thine inheritance,
which thou hast redeemed;
this Mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt.....

You see the Church was God's Plan to save the world...
But Ps. 79....O God, the Heathen are come into thine inheritance...Thy Holy Temple have they defiled...

this has to do .....when Our sins are full....
The Sinners have come into God Holy Temple the body of christ and defiled it with false teaching....false christ

The court is cast out...

was not the court where the gentiles could come.....and worship..?

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not;
for it is given unto the Gentiles;
and the Holy City shall they tread Under foot forty and two months....

also Luke 21:24....And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away
captive into all nations;
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles.....
Until the Times of the Gentiles be fulfilled...

Until the times that the Gentiles sin are ful......

25....And there shall be signs....In the Sun; and in the moon, and in the stars;
and upon the earth Distress of Nation, with perplexity; the SEA and the Waves Roaring;
26....Men's hearts failing them for fear...
and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth:
for the Powers of Heaven Shall be SHAKEN.

27.....And then shall they see the Son of man Coming in a cloud with power and great glory...

28....And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up,
and life up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh...

29....And he spake to them a parable;
Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30....When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand...

31....So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, Know ye that THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS NEIGH AT HAND.....




Mrs. B

[ampersand]

Hi lamb7!

...
Could that be because, as Jesus states,

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:

?

Of course, if he is already at work, then that would be present tense, but the context of the scripture is that of the future coming of Christ and His conquest of the said, "he".

The passage in Thessalonians is clear that he is already at work, so I agree with you and the passage on that point. The passage is also clear that in the future, all that is left with respect to the man of sin/son of perdition is his revelation and subsequent destruction, so I agree with you and the passage on that point.


Most of your other questions would have been fully answered with just a quick read of this thread, which I suggested and still suggest. It would be unfair to the other participants in this thread to rehash everything that I have been saying, but for your sake, I will give some quick answers. For further explanation, I refer you to my other posts in this thread.

..
Are you seriously in question of whether the AC will try to claim he is God in the future Tribulation

The passage in Thessalonians does not mention either an "AC" OR claims of deity, so I am not discussing those at the moment. The topic of this thread is the 2nd letter to the church at Thessalonika.

...or is it that you question a "physical" temple and are trying to prove that it is not physical?

I don't question a physical OR a non physical temple. What I have been laboring to do is to point out that when God calls something the "temple of God," this is vastly different from calling something a "temple." The phrase "temple of God" means something entirely different from the word "temple." The designation "temple of God" is NEVER used "metaphorically." All "temples of God" in Scripture are literal "temples of God." It matters not whether we can see or feel them. The only "temple of God" that is different from the other 3 is the one that was an earthly building. It differed from the other 3 in that GOD DID NOT DWELL IN IT. It was hallowed by God's name (see what God said to Solomon) - hence the designation "temple of God" - but God did not dwell there.

The only time the phrase "temple of God" is used as a "picture" or "shadow" of something (a 'metaphor' if you will) is when it is used in reference to a physical, earthly building (according to Heb 9). In such a case, the earthly building is a shadow of the "temple of God" that is Heaven - not the other way around. The last "temple of God" that was a "shadow" of the true "temple of God" was the temple house of Jesus' day. At the crucifixion, the veil in this house was supernaturally torn from top to bottom. It ceased to be the "temple of God" but became just a "temple," as evidenced by all of the book of Acts. Read specifically Stephen's response to the religious council of the day. This house was "a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building" (Heb 9:9-11). It doesn't get any clearer than that.


The temple of God that is the believer's body is a literal temple of God. The Holy Spirit dwells in it.
The temple of God that is the body of Jesus Christ is a literal temple of God. The Son dwells in it.
The temple of God that is Heaven is a literal temple of God. The Father dwells in it.
The temple of God that was the earthly building was a literal temple of God. But God did not dwell there. It was a shadow of the heavenly temple of God.

One of those is entirely physical: (the earthly building). Two are physical temples of God with varying degrees of the supernatural/spiritual: (the body of the believer, the glorified body of Christ). One is entirely spiritual/supernatural: (the Heavenly temple of the Father).

Are you trying to state that Christ has already come?

No no no. If that was my point, how easily could I have stated it! I have made it abundantly clear in this thread that I do not believe Christ has come (a second time).

That the AC has already been unveiled and has already "sat" in the temple of God?

The man of sin/son of perdition has not been revealed yet. The Apostasy has not happened yet. The unveiling of the man of sin/son of perdition will happen in close proximity to the day of Christ, according to the passage in the 2nd letter to the Thessalonians. Neither has occurred.

Because what you put forth seems to point in that direction, imo.

As with anything, you would have to take specific comments that I have made and show that they "point in that direction." If something I have written indeed seems to point in the wrong direction (with respect to Scripture), then the best way to refute it is not by refuting the perceived implication, but by refuting the explicit statement that points to the implication.

I truly don't understand your purpose in any of this.

My purpose has been clearly stated from the beginning: to LEARN. Nothing more. Now I have added another purpose: to WARN. To warn unbelievers in the church.

Is this truly messing with your faith? Has it become a stumbling block for you?

I truly thank you for any genuine concern. I can honestly tell you that my faith has never been stronger. The Word of God never messes with my faith. None of this is a stumbling-block for me, but I thank you immensely for your genuine concern. I freely admit that I am in constant need of greater faith, but this study has not diminished the faith that I have.

Do you really not understand this scripture?

Reading this thread from the beginning, you will see that I did not understand 2Thess2 at first. When I posted my first post in this thread, I had no idea what 2Thess2 was about - I had no biases and no understanding of it. In the beginning, I tried superimposing the AOD passages from Matthew and Daniel onto the passage in Thessalonians, thinking that would help me understand it. I did that with some other passages. However, after just reading 2Thess over and over and praying, I came to realize that it was not necessarily speaking about the same thing as the other passages. How obvious! I felt like such a fool! I came to realize that it is crucial to know what one passage is saying in context, before superimposing it on another. Right now, I am still studying 2Thess2, so I am not superimposing it on Revelation or Daniel or Matthew. The differences between all of them are obvious. Though there are similarities, there are indeed differences, so to be absolutely true to what God spoke, we must know what each is saying individually before examining them together. Now, I am NOT saying that we need to understand EVERYTHING in the passage under study - but we certainly need to get EVERYTHING that we can out of the context, before seeing how it relates to another passage. That is my guiding principle, anyway. If you choose a different course of study, that is between you and God.

I know I have come to understand much more about it than I did when I started this thread, but I can't say for sure that I get all of it. For example, as I have stated before, I am still trying to understand exactly how vv. 9&10 fit into the rest of the verses.

For you seem like an intelligent person with much understanding ...

Though I appreciate your compliment, I cannot accept it. Intelligence has nothing to do whatsoever with studying our Father's Word. All that is required is reading, faith and prayer. Those are the only things I seek.

...and I can't understand what really troubles you.

What troubles me more than anything (as I have stated already) is that the professing church (the congregation/assembly, not the body of Christ) is filled with unconverted/unbelieving people who are partaking in the "mystery of iniquity" and "love not the truth" and will therefore be sent "a strong delusion" and will also partake in "The Apostasy" and thereby reveal themselves for who they really are - the "man of sin/son of perdition" - and will be destroyed by our Lord upon His coming. (I refer you to my previous posts in order to understand what all of that means. Actually, I refer you to Scripture to understand what that means.)

What is it you are trying to say?

Whatever I am "trying to say" has been said. I have no hidden agenda. I am studying the Word, as I assume you are. In the process I am sharing what I have learned. I aspire to write/speak EXPLICITLY, not implicitly. If I didn't state it, I didn't mean it. However, I'll be the first to admit that I am not as clear as I would like to be, so if you do not understand something that I have actually written, feel free to ask for clarification before assuming something.

You're pointing out grammatical things, but to what end?

Pointing out "grammatical things" is a last resort for me. I have already stated that I am not a Greek scholar nor do I pretend to be. I have already stated that knowing Greek is not required for understanding God's Word fully. I have provided a careful analysis of this passage in previous posts with minimal "grammatical things." Some commentators thought that what I had stated was absurd; now I am trying to point out that even a clear unbiased reading of God's Word with all of the grammatical nuances taken into consideration specifically points to a present-day (even in Paul's day) man of sin/son of perdition who will be revealed in the future. That's my purpose of pointing out "grammatical things".

The other purpose is to show that even in the letter to the Thessalonians, as in all of the rest of the Bible, GOD sits in the "temple of God." No one else. That's why I pointed out that the tense of the verb "sitteth" is different from the other 5 verbs in that half-sentence (2:4). It is non-specific with respect to time, because God sits in the "temple of God" eternally, without respect to time. It is necessary for me to add that I came to this conclusion BEFORE learning about the tense of the verb, so it is not the primary foundation for my understanding of this passage. However, my crude grammatical analysis certainly seems to support it.



I hope that clears up any concerns that you have toward/about me. In the future, I think that any personal comments about someone's faith in God and the Scriptures would best be addressed via private message to the party in question. Nothing is added to the discussion by bringing it down to such a personal level in such an impersonal medium. I hope that everyone else participating in this discussion can forgive me for the VERY long reply (I didn't realize how long this would be), but a public accusation/question requires a public response/explanation. I really hope this will not happen again.


I sincerely wish you clarity and understanding as you study the Scriptures with the help of the One Who told His servants what to write in His Book.

in Christ,
&

ps: I really hope this thread doesn't get shut down for getting off-topic so much.

[ampersand]

Hi watching, I agree with what you wrote up to this point (except of course for the part where you are 'appalled' with my conclusion ) :

...
It seems to me that since 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is in the indicative mood, that although it is in the aorist tense, it is generally, from what I'm gathering, understood to be past tense. But, because it is in the aorist tense, it is not limited to a single, one time, occurrence in the past.

If my understanding is correct, then this fits in, perfectly, with the premise that I have been trying to explain all along in this thread as well as the AOD thread which you have cross-referenced above. And that is, that we know from history that this "type" of event has occurred before with anti-Christ "types." But we also know from scripture, that this "type" of event will ultimately repeat itself in the future.
...

This contradicts even the clear definition of the aorist tense that you posted. The action is limited to a single occurence, but the occurence is not limited to a single point in time. Therefore, it doesn't indicate a repeating action, but it does indicate an event that occurs once (though it may be drawn out through time).


Oh, and I never said that the aorist tense is reserved exclusively for God. All I pointed out was that 5 verbs are in the present tense and one is in the aorist tense. That in itself should cause one to read closely. However, I have already provided other non-grammatical reasons throughout this thread for why I think it refers to God sitting in His temple and not the man of sin/son of perdition.

in Christ,
&

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

I have already stated that knowing Greek is not required for understanding God's Word fully.

I obviously have to disagree with you on that point. And I'm not saying this just because I happen to be Greek.


But if you really want to fully understand the scriptures as far as the New Testament is concerned, then it is imperative to know Greek or to at least consider what was written in the original text in the Greek, because when you read it in English or any other language, you are basically reading what may be the best translation that someone was able to come up with, but it is still a translation, nonetheless. Because, no matter how well the translation, you can never know exactly what was written or it's meaning based on the translation alone because of the differences in languages.

To explain what I mean, I will try, once again, to show you how your statement regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can not be possible based on the way it was written in the original text.

But first, let me explain that there are different ways to refer to God, or god, in the Greek. There is no way to make this distinction in the English. However, in the Greek, the difference is evident without having to use upper or lower case.

Allow me to show you why, but first I will post the scripture, in the Greek, as well as the English, for the sake of reference:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (King James Version)

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is Go

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Β΄ 2:4 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

4ο αντικειμενος και υπεραιρομενος επι παντα λεγομενον θεον η σεβασμα ωστε αυτον εις τον ναον του θεου ως θεον καθισαι αποδεικνυντα εαυτον οτι εστιν θεος

Here is a word for word translation:

4 ο (the) αντικειμενος (one who opposes) και (and) υπεραιρομενος (self exalted) επι (above) παντα (all) λεγομενον (called) θεον (god) η (or) σεβασμα (object of worship) ωστε (so that) αυτον (he) εις (in) τον (the) ναον (temple) του (of) θεου (God) ως (as) θεον (god) καθισαι (sat) αποδεικνυντα (showing) εαυτον (himself) οτι (that) εστιν (he is) θεος (god)

As you can see from the above text, one of the words that has been translated as God, twice in the above text is "θεον."

You might have noticed that when I translated this word in one of my earlier posts, I translated it as meaning "of God."

That is because this word, because of it's form, does not directly refer to God. Basically this word could mean: of God, like God, relating to God, etc., or it could mean god (as in a god other than the one true God). See Blue Letter Bible definition: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2316&t=KJV

However, when the word god, is referring to God specifically (as in the one true God) it would have to be preceded by an article. In fact, when you refer to anyone specifically in the Greek, you would have to use some type of article before that person's name.

In English, we have only one definite article for identifying nouns only, (but not people), and that would be the word "the." But in Greek there are many different articles depending on whether the subject is a male, female, gender neutral, singular, plural, etc. For example, if I wanted to say, "......as Ampersand sits in the temple of God," I would have to say,"..........as o Ampersand sits in the temple of God. That is assuming that you are male. If you are not male, then I would use a different article to refer to you, personally. Do you understand?


One of the other words translated as God above is "θεου," as in "του θεου" This is the form you would use for God when something belongs to God.

Here is this part of the translation: ωστε (so that) αυτον (he) εις (in) τον (the) ναον (temple) του (of) θεου (God)

So "του θεου" literally translates as "of God" as in "belonging to God." In this case, you can know that it is referring to God specifically, because if it were referring to any god or gods, then it would have said "τον θεον."

The last word in the above sentence that has been translated as God in the English is "θεος."

Once again, this word is not preceded by an article, so it is not referring to God specifically. Because if it were referring to God specifically, it would have said "o θεος."

If you don't believe me take a look at the Blue Letter Bible page that I have linked above and look under the section called "Root Word Etymology."

So, you see, ampersand, there is no way to interpret the text the way you are interpreting it according to the Greek text.

ampersand, I see that you have made a post, but I am not going to read it until after I submit this one, because I have already been working on this post and I don't want to have to change it.

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

This contradicts even the clear definition of the aorist tense that you posted.

How does what I said contradict the definition that I posted.

Here, let me post the definition again:

Aorist Tense
The aorist is said to be "simple occurrence" or "summary occurrence", without regard for the amount of time taken to accomplish the action. This tense is also often referred to as the 'punctiliar' tense. 'Punctiliar' in this sense means 'viewed as a single, collective whole,' a "one-point-in-time" action, although it may actually take place over a period of time. In the indicative mood the aorist tense denotes action that occurred in the past time, often translated like the English simple past tense.

For example: "God...made us alive together with Christ." Eph 2:5
"He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:6

Now the definition for simple occurrence:

3) Simple occurrence, (or 'Summary occurrence') without reference to the question of progress. (This is sometimes referred to as 'Punctiliar' kind of action , but it is a misnomer to thus imply that, in every instance, the action only happened at one point of time. This can be true, but it is often dependent on other factors such as the meaning of the verb, other words in the context,

http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/verbs1.htm#AKTIONSART

[lambslave]

ampersand, in verse 9 pf 2Thes 2: am I stretching it when I say that the plain sense reading is that Paul seems to be speaking about the apearance of an indivual who demonstrates who he is with attesting miracles/signs. (in accors with the coming of Jesus)?
οὑ̂ ἐστιν ἡ παρουσία κατʼ ἐνέργειαν του̂ σατανα̂ ἐν πάσῃ δυνάμει καὶ σημείοις καὶ τέρασιν ψεύδους
Black, Matthew ; Martini, Carlo M. ; Metzger, Bruce M. ; Wikgren, Allen: The Greek New Testament. electronic ed. of the 3rd ed. (Corrected). Federal Republic of Germany : United Bible Societies, 1983; Published in electronic form by Logos Research Systems, 1996, S. 2 Th 2:9
lambslave

[ampersand]

Watching, several observations:

1. The idea that 'theos' must be preceded by a definite article is all good and well. However, there is more than one occurrence in the NT when a form of 'theos' is NOT preceded by a definite article and it is still apparent that the reference is to God not god. Therefore, the absence of the definite article in itself cannot definitively confirm whether it is God or god who is discussed.
   
   
2. I believe the most powerful argument against my interpretation is the fact that the form of the theos in question - specifically 'theon' - is in the accusative case. I didn't realize this before. I believe that for it to be a subject capable of carrying out an action it would have to be in the nominative case - namely theos - which it isn't. HOWEVER, I currently do not know the rules for subjects of dependent adverbial clauses (which I thought this phrase might be), so I am not sure if they must ALWAYS be in the nominative case or not. Do you know what the rule is? (in Koine Greek, not modern Greek of course)
   
   
3. The mood of the verb 'sitteth' is NOT indicative. It is an infinitive (as lambslave pointed out early in the thread). This is apparent from the conjugation. In those two verses that you pointed out that have the same exact form of the verb - it was translated as an infinitive and functioned as a noun phrase in the sentence. It seems apparent from those verses why this is so - because it was preceded by the definite article. I am not sure why the translators have chosen to translate it the way that they did in Thessalonians. Certainly, there are instances where an infinitive is used as a verb, but do you know if an infinitive must ALWAYS have a definite article preceding it in order to be used as a noun phrase? (in Koine Greek of course)

That is as deep as I am willing to go with my current knowledge (actually lack thereof) of the Greek.

I don't think I have anything more that I can add to to this discussion.

I am wide-open to being proven wrong about what I wrote earlier, but I wish someone who disagreed with me would indicate how the ideas that I posted on page 2 are incorrect. It seems self-consistent and self-contained to understand the passage as I did. The availability of an alternative 'theory' is not in itself a reason for my 'theory' being incorrect. If it is incorrect, it must be incorrect based on its own fundamental errors. I sincerely welcome anyone to show me where I am wrong. Above all, I seek the truth. Thank you in advance.

in Christ,
&

[watching]

# The idea that 'theos' must be preceded by a definite article is all good and well. However, there is more than one occurrence in the NT when a form of 'theos' is NOT preceded by a definite article and it is still apparent that the reference is to God not god. Therefore, the absence of the definite article in itself cannot definitively confirm whether it is God or god who is discussed.

# I believe the most powerful argument against my interpretation is the fact that the form of the theos in question - specifically 'theon' - is in the accusative case. I didn't realize this before. I believe that for it to be a subject capable of carrying out an action it would have to be in the nominative case - namely theos - which it isn't. HOWEVER, I currently do not know the rules for subjects of dependent adverbial clauses (which I thought this phrase might be), so I am not sure if they must ALWAYS be in the nominative case or not. Do you know what the rule is? (in Koine Greek, not modern Greek of course)

Ampersand, it would be nice if you could post those occurrences so that I could take a look at them. But, in any case, for the word "theos" to be construed as referring to God even without being preceded by a definite article is not inconceivable. However, what is INCONCEIVABLE is for "theon" to be referring to God specifically. Because, for one thing, "theon" does not even mean God. It can mean: like God, of God, a god, etc., but it definitely does not refer to God specifically. So you are right, it cannot carry out an action. So, my best guess is that the subject must ALWAYS be in the nominative case.

Of course, I am just saying this off the top of my head, because as far as rules go, I do not have a clue. But if you can show me where you are getting your information from, I can take a look at it and try to prove it to you grammatically.

The mood of the verb 'sitteth' is NOT indicative. It is an infinitive (as lambslave pointed out early in the thread). This is apparent from the conjugation. In those two verses that you pointed out that have the same exact form of the verb - it was translated as an infinitive and functioned as a noun phrase in the sentence. It seems apparent from those verses why this is so - because it was preceded by the definite article. I am not sure why the translators have chosen to translate it the way that they did in Thessalonians. Certainly, there are instances where an infinitive is used as a verb, but do you know if an infinitive must ALWAYS have a definite article preceding it in order to be used as a noun phrase? (in Koine Greek of course)

Here is the definition for the infinitive mood (from the website on NT Greek that I have linked above):

Infinitives
The Greek infinitive is the form of the verb that is usually translated into English with the word "to" attached to it, often used to complement another verb. It can be used to function as a noun and is therefore referred to as a "verbal noun".
For instance, "For to me to live is Christ" (Phil 1:21). In this sentence, the words "to live" are an infinitive in Greek and are functioning as the subject of the sentence (a noun).

Based on this definition, for the word "sitteth" to be in the infinitive form, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, would have been translated as follows:

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God to sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That would not make any sense, obviously!

Furthermore, the word "sitteth" in 2Thessalonians 2:3-4 is not being used to compliment another verb. Nor is it being used to function as a noun, for it to be considered a "verbal noun."

So, since nothing about the description for infinitives matches, the word translated as "sitteth," must, therefore, NOT be in the infinitive form, unless I am grossly misunderstanding the definition.

However what does match the way 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 was written, from what I'm seeing, is the description for the indicative mood which is as follows:

Indicative Mood
The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's or speaker's perspective. Even if the writer is lying, he may state the action as if it is a fact, and thus the verb would be in the indicative mood. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time. This 'statement of fact' can even be made with a negative adverb modifying the verb (see the second example).
This is in contrast to one of the other moods (see below) in which the writer/speaker may desire or ask for the action to take place.

For example: "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb."
Rev. 12:11 "God is not mocked." Gal. 6:7

Because 2Thessalonians 2:3-4 was definitely made as a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer's perspective.

I realize that when you look at the Blue Letter Bible Concordance, which you had linked in an earlier post above, that it shows "sitteth" as being in the infinitive mood. But, computers can make mistakes.

What makes more sense to you, in terms of application to 2Thessalonians 2:4, when you consider the differences between the infinitive and the indicative moods as described by the definitions above?

So, I ask you, what are you more apt to believe, your common sense, or what the computer says?

I don't know about you, but I would rather listen to my common sense.

So, the bottom line is this, ampersand, even if there were no other reason for your theory to not be valid, the truth of the matter is, that it cannot be valid grammatically, as far as I am concerned, according to the original text.

[ampersand]

...
Of course, I am just saying this off the top of my head, because as far as rules go, I do not have a clue.
...

...
So, the bottom line is this, ampersand, even if there were no other reason for your theory to not be valid, the truth of the matter is, that it cannot be valid grammatically, as far as I am concerned, according to the original text.

{emphasis mine}



edit: Hi! So, I was just rereading some of the arguments presented in this thread, and I came across this post of mine. It looks pretty bad. I'm sorry for any offense I caused. I can totally see how it can be misconstrued. At the time, I think I was just frustrated with what seemed to me like Watching forcing modern Greek onto Koine Greek...

[lamb7]

I am wide-open to being proven wrong about what I wrote earlier, but I wish someone who disagreed with me would indicate how the ideas that I posted on page 2 are incorrect. It seems self-consistent and self-contained to understand the passage as I did. The availability of an alternative 'theory' is not in itself a reason for my 'theory' being incorrect. If it is incorrect, it must be incorrect based on its own fundamental errors. I sincerely welcome anyone to show me where I am wrong. Above all, I seek the truth. Thank you in advance.

{emphasis mine}

I believe that is what Watching is trying to do and you said you "welcomed" it. But, Ampersand, you too, are only a human being, plagued with the same mind as anyone here. Just because no one can "prove" your theory "incorrect", doesn't automatically make it correct, either. Just saying.

I think it a bit vain to think that you have suddenly come up with a way to interpret scripture, that no one in the history of the Word, has thought of. That you have some how hit the nail on the head and we can't have anything to say against it. Especially by someone who claims to "not have a clue", but who is respected for their knowledge of the language and may have said what they did, as not to seem boastful.

May you truly open your mind to what others have to say in this thread.


In Christ,
lamb

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

watching wrote:...
Of course, I am just saying this off the top of my head, because as far as rules go, I do not have a clue.

That is absolutely correct! I am the first to admit that I am not a Greek scholar. However, your own research showed that "theon" (a form of "theos") is in the accusative case. And for it to be able to carry out an action, it must be in the nominative case. Here are your own words:

I believe the most powerful argument against my interpretation is the fact that the form of the theos in question - specifically 'theon' - is in the accusative case. I didn't realize this before. I believe that for it to be a subject capable of carrying out an action it would have to be in the nominative case - namely theos - which it isn't.

Then you asked me if I knew if there was an exception to this rule:

HOWEVER, I currently do not know the rules for subjects of dependent adverbial clauses (which I thought this phrase might be), so I am not sure if they must ALWAYS be in the nominative case or not. Do you know what the rule is?

Being that I am not a Greek scholar, I do not feel qualified to answer this question. But, I can tell you this:
I, personally, have never heard anyone refer to God as "theon."

In fact, in terms of how this would sound, imo, it would be comparable to someone saying in English, "...........so that he, as "divine" sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."

And then tried to convince me that "divine" is referring to God, and not the real subject of the sentence. And, then, furthermore, tried to convince me that "divine" is actually carrying out the action.

To be honest, when it comes down to it, I don't have a clue about English grammar either, but I can, at least, tell you that "divine" can not carry out an action.

But if you feel like "theon" can be referring to God, and that it can carry out an action, then by all means, why don't you prove your point by showing me an example of this from scripture.

I am more than willing to be corrected if I am wrong. I am not emphatically stating that I am right about anything. I am only expressing my understanding.

But implying that I am wrong about something, simply because I don't know all the grammar rules, without offering any evidence of why I am wrong, is not enough to convince me, or anyone else, I would hope, that I am without a doubt wrong about something. Besides, the burden of proof is on you, because you are the one claiming that "theon" is referring to God.

But again, I am not saying that I am right, but if you feel that I am wrong, then why don't you prove it somehow, other than by just using my words against me?

watching wrote:...
So, the bottom line is this, ampersand, even if there were no other reason for your theory to not be valid, the truth of the matter is, that it cannot be valid grammatically, as far as I am concerned, according to the original text.

In reply to myself, the bottom line still stands, as far as I am concerned.

And the bottom line is this: unless you can find an exception to your own rule, that you came up with, according to your own research, then there is no way that what you are proposing can be grammatically correct.

I see that lamb7 has posted, but I am going to go ahead and submit my post, because I had already been working on it.

[ampersand]

# The idea that 'theos' must be preceded by a definite article is all good and well. However, there is more than one occurrence in the NT when a form of 'theos' is NOT preceded by a definite article and it is still apparent that the reference is to God not god. Therefore, the absence of the definite article in itself cannot definitively confirm whether it is God or god who is discussed.

# I believe the most powerful argument against my interpretation is the fact that the form of the theos in question - specifically 'theon' - is in the accusative case. I didn't realize this before. I believe that for it to be a subject capable of carrying out an action it would have to be in the nominative case - namely theos - which it isn't. HOWEVER, I currently do not know the rules for subjects of dependent adverbial clauses (which I thought this phrase might be), so I am not sure if they must ALWAYS be in the nominative case or not. Do you know what the rule is? (in Koine Greek, not modern Greek of course)

Ampersand, it would be nice if you could post those occurrences so that I could take a look at them. But, in any case, for the word "theos" to be construed as referring to God even without being preceded by a definite article is not inconceivable. However, what is INCONCEIVABLE is for "theon" to be referring to God specifically. Because, for one thing, "theon" does not even mean God. It can mean: like God, of God, a god, etc., but it definitely does not refer to God specifically. So you are right, it cannot carry out an action. So, my best guess is that the subject must ALWAYS be in the nominative case.

Of course, I am just saying this off the top of my head, because as far as rules go, I do not have a clue. But if you can show me where you are getting your information from, I can take a look at it and try to prove it to you grammatically.

Hi watching! Here is a list of instances where 'θεὸν' (the singular masculine accusative declension of 'θεός') is used without the definite article 'τον' (the singular masculine accusative declension of `ο ). In all instances, it is referring to God not god. I don't claim that this list is exhaustive.

1. Luke 12:21:
   οὕτως ὁ θησαυρίζων ἑαυτῷ καὶ μὴ εἰς θεὸν πλουτῶν
   So [is] he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
   http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/21
   
   
2. John 10:33:
   ἀπεκρίθησαν αὐτῷ οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι λέγοντες, Περὶ καλοῦ ἔργου οὐ λιθάζομέν σε ἀλλὰ περὶ βλασφημίας καὶ ὅτι σὺ ἄνθρωπος ὢν ποιεῖς σεαυτὸν θεόν
   The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
   http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/33
   
   
3. John 20:17:
   λέγει αὐτῇ ὁ Ἰησοῦς Μή μου ἅπτου οὔπω γὰρ ἀναβέβηκα πρὸς τὸν πατέρα μου πορεύου δὲ πρὸς τοὺς ἀδελφούς μου καὶ εἰπὲ αὐτοῖς Ἀναβαίνω πρὸς τὸν πατέρα μου καὶ πατέρα ὑμῶν καὶ θεόν μου καὶ θεὸν ὑμῶν
   Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
   http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/33
   
   
4. Romans 1:21:
   διότι γνόντες τὸν θεὸν οὐχ ὡς θεὸν ἐδόξασαν ἢ εὐχαρίστησαν ἀλλ᾽ ἐματαιώθησαν ἐν τοῖς διαλογισμοῖς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐσκοτίσθη ἡ ἀσύνετος αὐτῶν καρδία
   Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
   http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/21
   
   
5. Romans 8:7:
   διότι τὸ φρόνημα τῆς σαρκὸς ἔχθρα εἰς θεόν τῷ γὰρ νόμῳ τοῦ θεοῦ οὐχ ὑποτάσσεται οὐδὲ γὰρ δύνατα
   Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
   http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... KJV#conc/7
   
   
6. Romans 8:27:
   ὁ δὲ ἐρευνῶν τὰς καρδίας οἶδεν τί τὸ φρόνημα τοῦ πνεύματος ὅτι κατὰ θεὸν ἐντυγχάνει ὑπὲρ ἁγίων
   And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.
   http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/27
   
   
7. 2 Corinthians 7:10
   ἡ γὰρ κατὰ θεὸν λύπη μετάνοιαν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἀμεταμέλητον ἐργάζεται ἡ δὲ τοῦ κόσμου λύπη θάνατον κατεργάζεται
   For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
   http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/10
   (here "godly sorrow" = sorrow of God i.e. the beginning of the verse is literally "for of God sorrow" where the prepositional phrase "of God" or "κατὰ θεὸν" indicates what kind of sorrow is being discussed)
   (verses 9 and 10 also have this exact same construction)
   
   
8. Galatians 4:8
   Ἀλλὰ τότε μὲν οὐκ εἰδότες θεὸν ἐδουλεύσατε τοῖς μὴ φύσει οὖσιν θεοῖς
   Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
   http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... KJV#conc/8
   
   
9. Galatians 4:9
   νῦν δὲ γνόντες θεόν μᾶλλον δὲ γνωσθέντες ὑπὸ θεοῦ πῶς ἐπιστρέφετε πάλιν ἐπὶ τὰ ἀσθενῆ καὶ πτωχὰ στοιχεῖα οἷς πάλιν ἄνωθεν δουλεύειν θέλετε
   But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
   http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... KJV#conc/9
   
   
10. 2 Thessalonians 1:8:
    ἐν πυρὶ φλογός διδόντος ἐκδίκησιν τοῖς μὴ εἰδόσιν θεὸν καὶ τοῖς μὴ ὑπακούουσιν τῷ εὐαγγελίῳ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
    In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... KJV#conc/8
    
    
11. Titus 1:16
    θεὸν ὁμολογοῦσιν εἰδέναι τοῖς δὲ ἔργοις ἀρνοῦνται βδελυκτοὶ ὄντες καὶ ἀπειθεῖς καὶ πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἀδόκιμοι
    They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/16
    
    
12. Hebrews 6:1:
    Διὸ ἀφέντες τὸν τῆς ἀρχῆς τοῦ Χριστοῦ λόγον ἐπὶ τὴν τελειότητα φερώμεθα μὴ πάλιν θεμέλιον καταβαλλόμενοι μετανοίας ἀπὸ νεκρῶν ἔργων καὶ πίστεως ἐπὶ θεόν
    Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... KJV#conc/1
    
    
13. Hebrews 6:18
    ἵνα διὰ δύο πραγμάτων ἀμεταθέτων ἐν οἷς ἀδύνατον ψεύσασθαι θεόν ἰσχυρὰν παράκλησιν ἔχωμεν οἱ καταφυγόντες κρατῆσαι τῆς προκειμένης ἐλπίδος
    That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/18
    
    
14. Hebrews 8:10
    ὅτι αὕτη ἡ διαθήκη ἣν διαθήσομαι τῷ οἴκῳ Ἰσραὴλ μετὰ τὰς ἡμέρας ἐκείνας λέγει κύριος διδοὺς νόμους μου εἰς τὴν διάνοιαν αὐτῶν καὶ ἐπὶ καρδίας αὐτῶν ἐπιγράψω αὐτούς καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτοῖς εἰς θεὸν καὶ αὐτοὶ ἔσονταί μοι εἰς λαόν
    For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/10
    (this one is interesting because the translation actually has the indefinite article "a" before God, supporting the idea that 'theos' can refer to a deity of uncertain affinity. However, I think it is clear that the Deity spoken of here is the Only True Deity - God.)
    
    
15. 1 Peter 1:21
    τοὺς δι᾽ αὐτοῦ πιστεύοντας εἰς θεὸν τὸν ἐγείραντα αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν καὶ δόξαν αὐτῷ δόντα ὥστε τὴν πίστιν ὑμῶν καὶ ἐλπίδα εἶναι εἰς θεόν
    Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/21
    
    
16. 1 Peter 3:21
    ὃ καὶ ἡμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν δι᾽ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
    The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/21
    
    
17. 1 Peter 4:6
    εἰς τοῦτο γὰρ καὶ νεκροῖς εὐηγγελίσθη ἵνα κριθῶσιν μὲν κατὰ ἀνθρώπους σαρκὶ ζῶσιν δὲ κατὰ θεὸν πνεύματι
    For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... KJV#conc/6
    
    
18. 1 John 4:12
    Θεὸν οὐδεὶς πώποτε τεθέαται ἐὰν ἀγαπῶμεν ἀλλήλους, ὁ Θεὸς ἐν ἡμῖν μένει, καὶ ἡ ἀγάπη αὐτοῦ τετελειωμένη ἐστὶν ἐν ἡμῖν
    No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... JV#conc/12
    
    
19. 2 John 1:9:
    πᾶς ὁ παραβαίνων καὶ μὴ μένων ἐν τῇ διδαχῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ, Θεὸν οὐκ ἔχει ὁ μένων ἐν τῇ διδαχῇ τοῦ Χριστοῦ, οὗτος καὶ τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει
    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cf ... KJV#conc/9

[ampersand]

Hi lamb7!

...
I believe that is what Watching is trying to do and you said you "welcomed" it. But, Ampersand, you too, are only a human being, plagued with the same mind as anyone here. Just because no one can "prove" your theory "incorrect", doesn't automatically make it correct, either. Just saying.

I never retracted my 'welcome' and I couldn't agree with you any more than I do .

I think it a bit vain to think that you have suddenly come up with a way to interpret scripture, that no one in the history of the Word, has thought of. That you have some how hit the nail on the head and we can't have anything to say against it. ...

I think it would be more than a 'bit' vain to think that way. It would be very haughty and utterly foolish. Not once have I made (either explicitly or implicitly) the claims that you put forth here.

...

You advice is noted. Thank you, lamb7.
Could you please take my advice to read this thread?


in Christ,
&