Post-Wrath

[Seeker]

Hi extravagantchristian,

Oh ok. I'm having a hard time seeing 2 peter 3 in that way, because when it says the heavens will pass away, that seems like a more perminate thing to me, as opposed to them being "rolled up" or receiding like a scroll" It also says that the earth will be burnt up, and when something is "burnt up" it's gone, nothing left of it. So that would seem more in line with the actual end of the old heavens and earth to me.

The example of the refiners fire is how I see it. The fire melts the silver and all the impurities. The impurities are purged off leaving only the silver or gold in a pure form.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

When elements are melted they don't disappear they just revert to their liquid forms. Once they cool off they harden again. So I see the fire as melting the silver (earth) and all the impurities (sinners and things that offend) are purged off leaving only the pure silver. Add to that the descriptions of hills/mountains melting and I get the sense that the fire is to cleanse the earth and basically levels it when it melts. The new earth has no sea why? Maybe the old sea was evaporated. As far as the heavens I think they are dissolved just as it says. It makes more sense to me to see the new earth at the beginning of the millennium because of Isaiah 11 and 65. But like I say I am still researching this part of it. Peter is telling them that they should be laying up things for heaven because all else will be toast. That gives me the sense that the silver would be what we lay up for ourselves in heaven where corruption can't touch it. The fire we stand through at the end leaves only righteousness standing just like in Matt 13.

Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

Well, I'll tell ya what, Seeker, you have given me enough info to keep be busy digging through scripture for awhile! Just when I think I have it all figured out, "bells and whistles" go off to let me know that I haven't even scratched the surface, yet!

[Abiding in His Word]

Post-trib would technically be anything after the tribulation. So pre-wrath and many other views can be lumped into post-trib. My view is that we are here to see the wrath but not subject to that wrath.

I agree with this as well. And am thinking that this time may be the time when we will see the promises fully available to us when Jesus promised:

.... "Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing will injure you. Luke 10:19

We do see locusts and scorpions in Rev. 9 And as an example of the the protection we will experience is similar to that of Paul's in Acts 28.

.... But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat and fastened itself on his hand. When the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they began saying to one another, "Undoubtedly this man is a murderer, and though he has been saved from the sea, justice has not allowed him to live." However he shook the creature off into the fire and suffered no harm. Act 28:3-5

It's one of the things which must be fulfilled imho:

.... because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:22

[extravagantchristian]

Seeker, do you think Jesus will rule during the millinium on the New Heavens and New Earth?

[Pretzelogical]

What a blessing to be understood by you siblings, and receive thanks for sharing my ramblings!


Scriptures defines its own symbolism for us.
The angel says he will show John the bride who is now the wife of the Lamb. Believers are the bride of Christ. The marriage supper has taken place at this point in time. The Groom has taken her to His banqueting table (it's all about the food, of course) and His banner over her is love. So John is taken to see this wife of the Lamb. John looks at the bride and sees she is the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven. Pray for Jerusalem!

Revelation 21: 9-10 & 21-22
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb." And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God...The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl. The great street of the city was of pure gold, like transparent glass...I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

The Holy City will be ruled by God, as the number twelve is the symbol of God's government. The way into the city is the pearl of great price, Jesus our Master. What began as an irratation, grew into a beautiful jewel of great worth. The activities of the city, represented by the streets, have been refined to pure gold that is so still and at peace it is as transparent glass. The law required all things impure to be put out of the city. They are in the lake of fire and "shall never come into" the Holy City. The believers are to be as a city set on a hill to light the path to Christ. In contrast, the Great City, the harlot, had dead witnesses lying in the streets. There will no longer be a sea of humanity in the Holy City causing separation. John sees the new government, a new community, new immortal bodies, and a new fellowship with Jesus as our dwelling and light. This pure community, a good and perfect gift, comes down from the Father of heaven. It is the bride given to the Son from the Father. She has come down from heaven, meaning a gift from God.

It is about purification. The Holy City will be measured (judged) and found to be a pure bride fit for the King who died and rose again to save her, and purify her. Walking in the light reveals our sins, then we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It is a purification process. Having an emotional experience, and then walking your own way does not get you into the city nor purify you. Jesus is the way. It is a walk with Him as our Wonderful Counselor, our Prince of Peace, our Mighty God the Holy One. Angels and men will be measured by the gold standard of perfection, with all equality (12 x 12 x 12) in this new government of God's community.

We are to encourage one another with the truth that He is returning for His bride, His wife, the Holy City with streets of the purest gold. We have good news for those who are perishing; The Lamb is the loving Savior, a Groom coming for His bride who will dwell with Him forever! Believers will rule over sin as a shining holy city bride forever. Never again will sin rule man. Each man will be a ruler of righteousness bearing precious gifts. Until then, may the King of RIghteousness come quickly to rule in the hearts of our loved ones who need to know the Way, the Truth and the Light.

James 1:16 Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

[mguard]

Wow this has been an intense thread so far.Excellent!!!!

I have always felt so alone in what I thought The Lord was showing me regarding His return, His Holiness and How He is a consuming fire, That refines those who repent and destroys those who curse and refuse to repent.

I admit I am not a scholar, I just read the word alot and pray that the Lord would reveal His truth.

I have thought for along time that the Lord being so Holy that no flesh might stand before Him, In His mercy and great love for us has sent His Holy Spirit or "Spirit of Holiness" as I like to refer to Him.... to purify us as silver, and that even the tribulations are a gift to us that will accomplish His work in His Bride of purifying and making us spotless

that when He is revealed and all flesh is consumed...Like the sacrifice offerings were consumed by fire on the alter.... we who have been changed by His Life and indwelt by His Spirit who remain at His coming will have the final removal of the fleshly covering and being changed in the twinkling of an eye, but those who are of the flesh only, will be consumed by His presence and Glory as He is Holy and no flesh may stand in His presense. The reason they cry to the rocks to hide them from the face of the Lamb.... who can stand? They will be horrified when they see Him, because they will know then what they deserve.

His judgement is not like an act separate from His being... but is in fact a description of Him. As is Mercy, Love, Holiness. He is Judgement, Righteousness. Our God is a consumming fire...I see it as like He isn't doing anything but returning, but His presence and Glory and holiness is so awesome in power that the result is that all that is not transformed ( made to withstand the heat so to speak) by Him is going to be destroyed

so Now I will re quote you seeker as I think we are seeing the same thing?

Po

The example of the refiners fire is how I see it. The fire melts the silver and all the impurities. The impurities are purged off leaving only the silver or gold in a pure form.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

When elements are melted they don't disappear they just revert to their liquid forms. Once they cool off they harden again. So I see the fire as melting the silver (earth) and all the impurities (sinners and things that offend) are purged off leaving only the pure silver. Add to that the descriptions of hills/mountains melting and I get the sense that the fire is to cleanse the earth and basically levels it when it melts. The new earth has no sea why? Maybe the old sea was evaporated. As far as the heavens I think they are dissolved just as it says. It makes more sense to me to see the new earth at the beginning of the millennium because of Isaiah 11 and 65. But like I say I am still researching this part of it. Peter is telling them that they should be laying up things for heaven because all else will be toast. That gives me the sense that the silver would be what we lay up for ourselves in heaven where corruption can't touch it. The fire we stand through at the end leaves only righteousness standing just like in Matt 13.

Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


Matthew 13Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Sherree,

Well, I'll tell ya what, Seeker, you have given me enough info to keep be busy digging through scripture for awhile!

Good you'll have some great questions I bet. I was holding off on the OT parts because it can get overwhelming very quickly. Just look for familiar events while reading the prophets of old. Ezekiel says that the prophets of Israel wrote about Gog who I believe is the AC. When you see Israel regathered that is always at the very end. I try to stop while I am reading and put things in time frames to help keep my reference straight. The great thing though is that it is all the same story. Once you realize that it is easier to put it all in order and understand it better. Rather than looking for the differences I look for the similarities like the cosmic signs for instance. They always are just before Jesus returns. That really helps to understand Isaiah 13.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

The similarities are the cosmic signs. This means that all the events here in Isaiah 13 are related to the events of Matt 24 via the cosmic signs. That increases the clarity of our picture immensely because now we can see that the OT day of the Lord is the same as the NT return of Christ and that opens up a whole big picture. Once we suspect that then we can search for proof of it.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And sure enough the proof is in the NT as well. The return of Jesus equated with the day of the Lord in 1Th 4-5. Then it goes on now we know Matt 24, Isa 13, and 1Th 4-5 all speak of the same events and the details we have about the return have increased again....the dead rise first. So we add that to our picture and so on. That's how we build the big picture one connection at a time. It helps to keep in mind that it is all the same story and the parts somehow fit the puzzle. I have yet to find any scripture that directly refutes the notion of Post-Wrath. I may not understand completely how they all fit together but I know they do if that makes any sense to you. Eventually, as in the case of Rev 14 here in this thread, the answer is given to us while reconsidering the issue. Anyway that's how I piece this all together. Feel like Sherlock Holmes sometimes digging around with my magnifying lens reading obscure hints in ancient texts...lol. But what a great journey it is when a new scripture is opened to us.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi extravagantchristian,

Seeker, do you think Jesus will rule during the millinium on the New Heavens and New Earth?

As far as where Jesus rules the millennium from we have these scriptures all pointing to Jerusalem.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
Isa 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.
Isa 4:5 And the LORD will create upon every dwelling place of mount Zion, and upon her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for upon all the glory shall be a defence.

Isa 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
Isa 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Here in Isaiah 66 he has Jerusalem as the place God dwells and a reference to the new heavens and earth. This again to me seems to link the two together. The new earth being the place of the first just government ever, that of our Lord and Saviour Jesus. This has to be a reference to new Jerusalem where the Lord reigns because of the fact He is reigning there.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Jesus rules from new Jerusalem in Revelation and He rules from Jerusalem/Mt. Zion in the OT. In both examples He rules forever and they have the same name Jerusalem. So the evidence points again to new Jerusalem being present at the beginning of the millennium. It always comes back to the same point no matter which scriptures we look at or it seems that way to me at least.

Peace,
Seeker

[Abiding in His Word]

Great summaries and scriptural support, seeker!

[Seeker]

Hi mguard,

His judgement is not like an act separate from His being... but is in fact a description of Him. As is Mercy, Love, Holiness. He is Judgement, Righteousness. Our God is a consumming fire...I see it as like He isn't doing anything but returning, but His presence and Glory and holiness is so awesome in power that the result is that all that is not transformed ( made to withstand the heat so to speak) by Him is going to be destroyed

so Now I will re quote you seeker as I think we are seeing the same thing?

His righteousness defines the wrath in a way. They were given every chance to repent but yet they didn't. God holds the offer of repentance open to them throughout His wrath. The souls at the 5th seal asking when their blood will be avenged gives me the sense that it wouldn't be fair to them if their blood wasn't avenged in a human mind sort of way.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

His being righteous demands justice as would be the case with a judge in court. When the accused is found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt then judgment is pronounced to be carried out in a fair and just manner. They got what they deserved to put it primitively. Which leads sort of back to 2Peter.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

God gives them every opportunity to repent of their evil ways but there comes a time when all must be accounted for at the return of Jesus they will be in utter fear and astonishment when they see Him arriving in the clouds. All we can do is pray and try to help as many as possible see the truth of God so they are not there looking up at the imminent fire of their destruction which occurs at the 7th seal/trumpet/vial. We will be purified, they will be destroyed but we all go down together.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Thanks Abiding in His Word and I agree with you that all will be fulfilled that is written, it has to be.

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

I feel that I'm so blessed to be a part of this group! Hugs to everyone!

Thanks seeker, for posting all those scriptures again for me. What I meant by saying that I was going to be doing even more digging in the Word, was that I had never heard any teaching about the New Heaven and New Earth beginning just after Christ's return. The thought never crossed my mind that it could be that way. I do still have some questions, but I'll wait about asking them right now, cause you may want to move on to something else. Don't want to get the thread off track.

[extravagantchristian]

So the evidence points again to new Jerusalem being present at the beginning of the millennium.

Seeker, I have a few problems with the idea that the millennium will take place in the new heavens and new earth.

#1. What would be the point of satan being released on the new earth to decieve the nations, when the only people who will be there on the new earth will be the church who was raptured? (according to you, since everyone will have been burnt up on the old earth)

#2. The bible says that there will be children playing in the streets during the millenium, so who will be producing those children since the church will not be marrying or giving in marriage, but instead we will be like the angels? According to your logic, those babies will have to be born by us, so would we be making babies outside of a marriage commitment? I doubt it.

#3. Rev 20 and 21 do not read in the order you say. They read like this:

Revelation 20

Satan Bound 1000 Years

The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

Satanic Rebellion Crushed

The Great White Throne Judgment

Revelation 21

All Things Made New

1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.

Since God declares that "it is done" when the new heavens and earth are made, it makes more sense to me that it will be "done" AFTER satan has decieved the nations, and AFTER the GWTJ, not before.

[Seeker]

Hi extravagantchristian,

Seeker, I have a few problems with the idea that the millennium will take place in the new heavens and new earth.

Yes I am noticing that.

#1. What would be the point of satan being released on the new earth to decieve the nations, when the only people who will be there on the new earth will be the church who was raptured? (according to you, since everyone will have been burnt up on the old earth)

How do you figure only the church that was raptured will be there? The ones raptured will have their heavenly bodies as the angels. But there will still be life on earth as in being born and dying for the 1,000 years.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

They are in the new earth and a child dying is mentioned showing both birth and death around. I don't think your point about only the raptured church being there is supported by scripture.

#2. The bible says that there will be children playing in the streets during the millenium, so who will be producing those children since the church will not be marrying or giving in marriage, but instead we will be like the angels? According to your logic, those babies will have to be born by us, so would we be making babies outside of a marriage commitment? I doubt it.

I am sure the Lord could think of an infinite number of ways to have children on earth during the millennium without involving the raptured church. I am just reading what the words of scripture say. The new heavens and earth are mentioned in association with the infant and old man.

#3. Rev 20 and 21 do not read in the order you say. They read like this:

Revelation 20

Satan Bound 1000 Years

The Saints Reign with Christ 1000 Years

Satanic Rebellion Crushed

The Great White Throne Judgment

Revelation 21

All Things Made New

Since God declares that "it is done" when the new heavens and earth are made, it makes more sense to me that it will be "done" AFTER satan has decieved the nations, and AFTER the GWTJ, not before.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

In this scene is the "it is done" before or after the millennium?

Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Is this scenes "it is done" before or after the millennium?

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Here is another place where it is done at the sounding of the 7th trumpet.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

All these places where it is done are before the 1,000 years have ended. There is a group that isn't really accounted for. That is the 144,000 from Israel that are redeemed from the earth and follow the Lamb. God always keeps a remnant of Israel. Perhaps these 144,000 are sealed and protected through the wrath just as we Christians are. They wouldn't be reigning with Jesus because they weren't Christians so they aren't raptured and changed to immortal at that time. They would enter into the millennium in their mortal bodies as Israelis. The millennial scriptures seem to lean toward Israel anyway.

Peace,
Seeker

Edit to Add: Forgot about these guys. It definitely could be them.

Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Isa 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
Isa 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

After God punishes Egypt He brings His people back to Israel as in the Exodus of old. This is the most likely group now that I remembered them. They are actually shown gathered up after Jesus arrives and placed in Israel. They probably populate the millennium.

[extravagantchristian]

Seeker, thanks for answering my questions.

So you don't think Rev 20 and 21 read in chronological order?

And there must be a logical answer in scripture as to how the children get born in the millennium. I know God is capable of doing a miracle and making people out of the dust, but I don't think God would leave that part out of the Word, since all the other main points are disclosed.

Who are these people who are going to be deceived by Satan at the end of the 1,000 years, and where do they come from?

Yes, it does make sense that the Jews will populate the millennium, like you said, but the corruptible MUST put on the incorruptible. According to your theory, that there will be no flesh spared when Christ returns, the jews will either have to die, or God will have to take them up in the rapture too, and they will need incorruptible bodies that won't burn up in the atmosphere when they go up in the rapture. But incorruptible bodies are like the angels and don't marry or have babies, so how would they reproduce during the millennium?

[Sherree]

Seeker, EC has asked and made the same arguments and raised the same questions that I was going to ask you earlier. I have to agree with her for the time being. I just can't see it any other way.

I see some inconsistencies that haven't been answered yet.

If all who haven't repented and received Christ as their savior at His return are all gathered and burned, they can't be the ones who help populate the 1000 yr. reign. So, since we can't, because of our glorified bodies, procreate, then who will? It is evident that during this time birth and death takes place. Also, satan is loosed at the end to deceive the nations. Who will the nations be if they are all burned up at His appearing?

I also see Rev. 20 and 21 as being in chronological order.

I know that you have already answered EC, but thought I would just let you know that these were the same questions that I had.

[mela]

WOW!!! I am able to log in!!!!

GREAT THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bethany]

This is a brilliant thread thankyou to all who have added their thoughts here - I really appreciate all the time you have spent with this. Hopefully I soon will have time to delve deeper into this. I still have a few questions but alot has fitted for me thats for sure!

[bchandler]

Just some food for thought.

When the harvest comes Jesus gives us a parable that shows that the wheat and the tares are harvested at the same time. The wheat gathered into the barn (a place of storage/protection), and the tares are gathered together in the field to be burned...

Now look at Revelation... what happens at the harvest? The wheat is gathered to the Lord, and immediately after... or at the same time... the harvest of the grapes of wrath is shown. This is followed by a detailed explanation of the burning of the tares... the seven bowl judgments, and the gathering for the battle at Meggido! IMO, these last seven judgments, which are called the undiluted anger/wrath of God, and the battle of Meggido are the wrath that we are not appointed unto!

The question that arises is, where will we who are gathered into his barn be while this is going on? The answer is... the scripture doesn't say exactly, except to give us the signs of the flood, and of Sodom.

In both of these cases, and as in the case of Egypt... God protects his people while destruction is raining down all around them. He insulates, protects, or isolates them from the judgments. I think it is plain to see that this is what he will do at the end of the age, but where is IMO of no import. What IS important is that wherever our gathering together is, it will be with Jesus! It won't matter where we are, as long as we are with him!

I concede that it is possible that we are protected someplace here on earth rather than taken to heaven, but IMO heaven will be wherever Jesus is anyway!

[bchandler]

But... Revelation doesn't show the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem descending upon the new earth until AFTER the millennial reign of Jesus, the final rebellion led by Satan after the thousand years had ended, and AFTER the great white throne judgment.

[Seeker]

Hi extravagantchristian and Sherree,

EC:Yes, it does make sense that the Jews will populate the millennium, like you said, but the corruptible MUST put on the incorruptible. According to your theory, that there will be no flesh spared when Christ returns, the jews will either have to die, or God will have to take them up in the rapture too, and they will need incorruptible bodies that won't burn up in the atmosphere when they go up in the rapture. But incorruptible bodies are like the angels and don't marry or have babies, so how would they reproduce during the millennium?

Sherree:If all who haven't repented and received Christ as their savior at His return are all gathered and burned, they can't be the ones who help populate the 1000 yr. reign. So, since we can't, because of our glorified bodies, procreate, then who will? It is evident that during this time birth and death takes place. Also, satan is loosed at the end to deceive the nations. Who will the nations be if they are all burned up at His appearing?

No not really. Let's back up a bit and I'll try to explain it better. Sometimes our minds get so locked on a concept that we can't see but a few possible explanations. We tunnel vision ourselves to a certain degree by what we hold as doctrine. Let's back up to a verse I used in an earlier post.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Remember I said there were three groups represented here. We know that the saints who get raptured see Jesus arriving in the clouds so that is the first group.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now there is another group that is also in Matt 24 and Rev 1:7. In Matt 24:30 all tribes of the earth will mourn and in Rev 1:7 all kindreds of earth will wail because of Him. These two are the same group. Then in Rev 1:7 we also see those who pierced Him. They are a group called out and representive of Israel.

Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Clearly the ones that pierced Him are of Israel. The nations are gathered to be destroyed (Armageddon/Gog-Magog) at the time those who pierced Him look upon Him. The time setting here is at the end of the last 7 years just as Jesus touches down on earth. We can know that from Zec 14.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This is also Armageddon when Jesus defeats the nations arrayed against Israel. So we see Jesus arriving in the clouds and look up in anticipation. All the nations of the earth see Christ arriving then mourn and wail. Also those who pierced Him mourn when they see Him. By this time the dead in Christ have been raised because God brings them with Him (1Th4:14). So the dead in Christ and the mourners are distinct different groups here. The Jewish mourners were not part of the resurrection because they were not dead in Christ. We who remain and alive aren't taken until after the tares go first which is what Zec 12/14 is showing. So at the time that Israel mourns for He who they pierced we also have the saints who are waiting to be raptured there as well. The only ones with Christ at this point are the dead in Christ (Jude 1-10,000's saints).

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

They both grow together until the harvest with the tares going first. The tares go at Armageddon and Jesus brings the dead in Christ with Him to Armageddon while we witness the whole deal under God's protection. In what ways could God protect us? For Noah God put Him on a boat. For Lot He led him from the destruction. For the Exodus Jews He told them to stay in their chambers until it passed over...hence passover. For Daniel God sent angels into the fire pit to protect him from the fire. How does God say He will do it for Israel?

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

They don't have to be changed to their immortal bodies for God to protect them. There are numerous ways as plainly illustrated in the bible. God places His seal on 144,000 of Israel. His seal protects us and them through the fire. Just as Daniel was still fully human when he walked out of the fire pit so will the Jewish remnant. They can't be part of the first resurrection because only those that believe in Christ are part of the first resurrection. That resurrection will have already occured by the time Jesus touches down. The Jews are there at touchdown mourning. They had to be protected through it.

Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

The Exodus is even referenced here in comparision. Israel was protected through the wrath at the Exodus just as they are in Isaiah 11:16. The remnant are apparently scattered throughout the nations for protection from anihilation at the hands of the AC. Israel is scattered from Israel during the great tribulation as the AC hunts them down. After God defeats the enemies of Israel He regathers them for the last time in Israel. That is the group shown in Isaiah 11:16. It is written of in numerous places in scripture. Almost every OT prophet said something about the final regathering in Israel for the millennium. 1Th4 is very critical to understand the sequence from. The dead in Christ before us and arriving with Jesus locks our rapture to be after the arrival. Jesus destroys the tares upon arrival with the saints.

For the tares to go first post-wrath is the only answer. I have looked at this from almost every angle and it always leads back to the same story. I just read and believe what the words say. If I kept my old view of things and wasn't willing to look at the scriptures and what they actually say; then none of this would be apparent to me now. Sometimes our doctrines inhibit our ability to objectively look at issues. We must be willing to wipe the slate clean, at least temporarily, and examine what the words actually say to form our opinions. There is no way I could sit here and defend this position without knowing that I can because scripture will back me on it. It is not a popular teaching and it never has been but I think often that the bible thumping fire preaching evangelists of old were right after all...who would have thought...certainly not me when I began this study of post-wrath years ago. Keep the questions rolling, they are helping me to see it better trying to explain it....thx.

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi mela,

Glad you made it and glad you like the thread it should get better as we go.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi bchandler,

But... Revelation doesn't show the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem descending upon the new earth until AFTER the millennial reign of Jesus, the final rebellion led by Satan after the thousand years had ended, and AFTER the great white throne judgment.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Is the new heavens and earth shown here in Isaiah 65 before or after the millennium? Also how is there death after the millennium as shown in this new heavens and earth Isaiah 65 speaks of? Death is not defeated until after the 1,000 years so the dying in Isaiah 65 would have to be during the millennium.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Peace,
Seeker

[bchandler]

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Rev 21:6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
Rev 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
Rev 21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed--
Rev 21:13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.
Rev 21:16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal.
Rev 21:17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement.
Rev 21:18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, clear as glass.
Rev 21:19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald,
Rev 21:20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst.
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, transparent as glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I post all of this to show what you left out... that between chapter 20 and 21 it clearly shows the new things AFTER the millenium, and AFTER the final defeat of Satan, and AFTER the GWT judgment. As to your question regarding Isaiah, I can't answer it... but I can't ignore what is presented in Revelation also.

[bchandler]

Looking at Isaiah, the word tranlated as new there is form a Hebrew root that means to rebuild, or repair... so perhaps the new heaven and earth spoken of in Isaiah are the repaired/rebuilt heavens and earth that will exist during the millennium? Jesus will restore the earth to it's pre-flood conditions... and people will once again live to be a thousand years old? This is all I can think of that would allow Isaiah and Revelation, to both be true.

[extravagantchristian]

maybe it's possible that Rev21 does not follow Rev 20 in chronology, but that it goes back and describes the same time period as Rev 20 from a different perspective?

[bchandler]

I find that hard to accept, because rev 20 talks about the first heaven and earth fleeing away from the presence of God followed by the QWT judgment, and rev 21 opens with a new heaven and earth, restating that the first had passed away, as was recorded in rev 20... so it clearly seems to be chronological... rev 20 dealing with things leading up to the GWT judgment and passing of the first sky and earth, and rev 21 dealing with things after that.

[Seeker]

Hi bchandler,

I post all of this to show what you left out... that between chapter 20 and 21 it clearly shows the new things AFTER the millenium, and AFTER the final defeat of Satan, and AFTER the GWT judgment. As to your question regarding Isaiah, I can't answer it... but I can't ignore what is presented in Revelation also.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Did they not overcome all things before the millennium? Didn't the unbelieving...murders...and etc. all get thrown into the lake of fire back in Rev 20? And didn't the angels have the seven vials before the millennium? But how could that be they are written in Rev 21 in the future tense...The second death was back in Rev 20. See John is recounting events here including the new heavens and earth. This is sort of a flashback. For example here is where God wipes the tears from their eyes in other scripture.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

They are led to the living waters and tears are wiped from their eyes in Rev 7:17 also. The setting for Rev 7:17 is just after the 6th seal when Jesus returns not the end of the millennium. The new heavens and earth was first mentioned in the bible by Isaiah.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Isaiah gives a very clear description of what the new heavens and earth will be like. The wolf and lamb lying to gether is a classic millennial verse. We find it also in Isaiah 11.

Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

See this sets the timing for us by identifying when the wolf and lamb lie down together. It is when the Lord sets His hand to recover the remnant of His people (Israel) from the nations around Israel. This happens just after Armageddon not at the end of the millennium. I just read what the words say and form my doctrine from that. The words say the the new heavens and earth are at the beginning of the millennium. Just because John mentions it in Rev 21 does not mean it happens then. It is a recount of an event like many other places in the bible.

Peace,
Seeker

[bchandler]

seeker..... i have to disagree... rev 7:17 is discussing a very special group... those who come out of the great trib... while rev 20-21 are speaking of all believers... Just as God speaks of a special reward for those beheaded for his witness, he speaks of a special reward for those enduring the great trib, and then of rewards that apply to all believers.

But honestly... i don't wanna debate this... as it doesn't affect the OP topic... that of a near post-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, post-wrath position...

I appreciate the honesty with which you are approaching scripture, and encourage you to continue... I just was interested in how you reconciled things stated in Isaiah with the apparent chronology of rev 20-21.

I think the concept of a restored heaven and earth versus a new heaven and earth reconciles the apparent discrepancies, and the grammar potentially supports that.

To be completely honest though... the Greek word used for new in revelation 21 can also mean rebuilt, or renewed, and except for the fact that rev 20 indicates no more place is found for the old ones, could have made a case for it.

Where as in Isaiah there is no mention of the passing away of the old ones, so the concept of the new ones being a refreshing or restoration or rebuilding of the old ones could actually be allowed for...

As to the references to all those who work evil not entering into it but having their place in the lake of fire... this IMO does not indicate sin still existing, but rather a re-iteration of a call to repentance stating that those not covered will be condemned, as has already been stated.

rev 21:27 clearly states only those found in the Lamb's book of life will enter into it... which is true.... because all those not found in it have already been judged and scentenced, so there is nothing contradictory about that statement, or it's future tense, because it is a statement pointed at the reader, IMO.

[mela]

Great summaries and scriptural support, seeker!

I totally agree Abiding!!!

Hi mela,

Glad you made it and glad you like the thread it should get better as we go.

Peace,
Seeker

Thank you Seeker! It surely has been a personal test of patience to get "on" the board OR even view it!
Again...Awesome Study!!! Looking forward to learning more! Lord willing, I will be able to BE here!

[Pretzelogical]

During the tribulation there are saints who do not take the mark.
There are those who follow the beast and take the mark.
Does scripture allow for there to be a group of people who do not follow Christ nor the beast?
If so, then they would re-populate the earth under the 1000 year reign of Christ with the saints.

Numerous times in scripture the word "all" is used to mean different things. Instead of going to those verses now, I would like to look at one example that seems pertinent to looking into this theory.

In 1 Kings 18, after a 3.5 year drought and famine, there is Queen Jezebel and her 450 prophets of Baal and her 400 prophets of Asherah
vs.
Elijah.
The prophets gathered on the mountain before all the people to test by fire whose God/god reigns.
The people were under the rule of the evil queen, the harlot, pictured as the The Great City.
Obadiah had hidden 100 prophets of God away in two caves and was providing food and water to them.

Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him."
But the people said nothing.

God's judging fire accepted the pure sacrifice of Elijah, so Elijah and the people killed the prophets of Jezebel. The people then were free to choose to follow God whose prophet stood firm and over-came, or the people could choose not to follow God. Elijah was then given God-speed to run faster than Ahab's chariot, then Elijah hides and is suicidal as he thinks he is the only faithful one left.

The people were willing to go against the evil prophets, but still did not join with Elijah. (Reminds me of the lost who were active in the "tea parties" to protest the federal government here in the USA.) The other prophets had remained hidden and protected with provisions.

God tells Elijah of the seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal. God then names who Elijah is to anoint as new leadership that will rule with a rod of iron, and to go anoint Elisha as his own replacement who will do even more greater works than Elijah.

John 14:12
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

In Luke 4 Jesus reminds the Jews that Elijah and Elisha were sent to outsiders even though there were widows in Israel. This is early in Jesus' ministry as recorded in Luke: temptation in wilderness, declaration that He is the fulfillment of Isaiah 61, and then the reminder of God helping those outside the legal and spiritual leadership of Israel, a beast system.

Luke 4:25 "But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land;
26and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.
27"And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian."
28And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things;

At the time of Christ's first coming, the synagogue was ruled by an unqualified high priest, a beast system, whom Jesus said were of their father, the devil. The people were ruled by it, but did not give their pledge to it. In contrast, John the Baptist's parents were both of the lineage of Aaron the priest, and when John's father saw the angel in the Holy Place, he was serving as God's true high priest with his son, John the Baptist, the true prophet, whom Jesus said was the greatest man who ever lived.

Three groups: 1.) the false, beast system that replaced (anti) Christ.
2.) Many people came to repent, be baptized by John, and be prepared for believing on the LORD Christ Jesus.
3.) Others just hated the system, but did not come to be baptized by John. Many of those who chose not to follow Christ. still hated the beast system. They continued to watch for another Messiah they had invented. They repopulated Jerusalem, but 3.5 X 10 years later, the geneological records were destroyed along with the city that rejected Christ and stayed under the rule of beast system.

People were either of the beast system, persecuted by the beast system for standing for Christ, or hated the system, but were not of Christ. I am looking at this as a picture of Christ ruling with a rod of iron, the saints (the holy city)finally reigning over their sins in victory, and outside the city the people are under the true, pure, Holy rule of Christ and hating it to the point they rebel after a thousand years of it.

Thanks for taking a look at this with me. You all are an answer to prayer as so few people care to take the time to do so. It is as you say, so easy to just read the commentaries and trust them instead of the word. Praise God for His Spirit that continues to teach His people for knowledge to increase. LORD, please do not allow us to be deceived! Amen!

[Sherree]

Wow, guys and gals, this is the best bible study I've been involved in in a long time! Thanks to you, seeker, for taking the time to once again answer my questions!

Blessings to all!

[Seeker]

Hi bchandler,

seeker..... i have to disagree... rev 7:17 is discussing a very special group... those who come out of the great trib... while rev 20-21 are speaking of all believers... Just as God speaks of a special reward for those beheaded for his witness, he speaks of a special reward for those enduring the great trib, and then of rewards that apply to all believers.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Christ....which had NOT worshipped the beast, neither his image...When is the beast in power? He only has power for 42 months starting at the AOD. The group here in Rev 20:4 had to be from the great tribulation because they refused the MOB. Here let's look at it again this time from the OT.

Isa 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
Isa 25:8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
Isa 25:10 For in this mountain shall the hand of the LORD rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill.
Isa 25:11 And he shall spread forth his hands in the midst of them, as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to swim: and he shall bring down their pride together with the spoils of their hands.
Isa 25:12 And the fortress of the high fort of thy walls shall he bring down, lay low, and bring to the ground, even to the dust.

Here again God is wiping tears from their faces after He lifts the vail that is spread over the nations. This again points to the beginning of the millennium because we see Moab trodden down at that time. Moab gets destroyed during the wrath of God prior to the millennium.

Zep 2:3 Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.
Zep 2:4 For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation: they shall drive out Ashdod at the noon day, and Ekron shall be rooted up.
Zep 2:5 Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD is against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant.
Zep 2:6 And the sea coast shall be dwellings and cottages for shepherds, and folds for flocks.
Zep 2:7 And the coast shall be for the remnant of the house of Judah; they shall feed thereupon: in the houses of Ashkelon shall they lie down in the evening: for the LORD their God shall visit them, and turn away their captivity.
Zep 2:8 I have heard the reproach of Moab, and the revilings of the children of Ammon, whereby they have reproached my people, and magnified themselves against their border.
Zep 2:9 Therefore as I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.

Moab gets it along with the rest who have transgressed against Israel and God. This occurs during the wrath of God which is at the front end of the millennium (Armageddon). Seek the Lord that they may be hidden in the day of the Lord's anger. Those hiding during the Lord's anger...means that there are God's people during the day of His anger. Another proof for post-wrath by the way. All the scriptures point to the beginning of the millennium as the "new earth".

I appreciate the honesty with which you are approaching scripture, and encourage you to continue... I just was interested in how you reconciled things stated in Isaiah with the apparent chronology of rev 20-21.

Show me what you are talking about here. Isaiah definitely matches the chronology I put forth. Let me see the scripture you mean here because I can show you many places in Isaiah that support a post-wrath perspective.

I think the concept of a restored heaven and earth versus a new heaven and earth reconciles the apparent discrepancies, and the grammar potentially supports that.

To be completely honest though... the Greek word used for new in revelation 21 can also mean rebuilt, or renewed, and except for the fact that rev 20 indicates no more place is found for the old ones, could have made a case for it.

Where as in Isaiah there is no mention of the passing away of the old ones, so the concept of the new ones being a refreshing or restoration or rebuilding of the old ones could actually be allowed for...

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.


The former shall not be remembered??? I think you should reconsider that statement.

rev 21:27 clearly states only those found in the Lamb's book of life will enter into it... which is true.... because all those not found in it have already been judged and scentenced, so there is nothing contradictory about that statement, or it's future tense, because it is a statement pointed at the reader, IMO.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The judgment was at the foundation of the world so your point isn't valid.

Peace,
Seeker

[mela]

I hope you are planning to continue this thread Seeker!
Been busy with the Holiday thingys (friends, family, food), but I am hoping you will continue with this study!
Hope you are well!!!

[Seeker]

Hi mela,

I hope you are planning to continue this thread Seeker!

Yes I do but not sure which direction to go next. I too took a bit of a break to relax with friends and family. Also the Turkey thread needed a bit of attention but I am back here now just wondering what to try to explain next. Any ideas? What weaknesses do you see or things I haven't explained thoroughly? I really want to make sure everyone is understanding so if anyone wants clarification or can think of scriptures that seem to argue against this view, I'd be glad to address them. I will be reviewing what I have written so far to see if I can come up with a direction to head so there should be more in the next couple of days as I try to continue with this.

Peace,
Seeker

[beeps]

Post wrath/last day/last trumpet.....yes its that simple.

As Pastor Meyer of Last trumpet ministries says, if its the last day, there will be NO NEXT DAY. The Last day is the last day of time and then we are in eternity.

Good Thread.

[mela]

Hey again Seeker! I can not give you an answer or opinion as to where you should go next with this study. Praying that the Holy Spirit leads you though!

Also, I saw no weakness in the Scriptures you provided in supporting your view.
Wonderful study!!!

[Seeker]

Hi beeps,

The Last day is the last day of time and then we are in eternity.

Thanks looks like a direction to head. There ya go Mela we're off and running thanks. It is amazing how straight forward scripture puts it and yet it is hidden so easily from us. Let's look at the descriptions we are given of the last day in scripture. The phrase "last day" is used many times by Jesus. I would say He is our best authority on the matter in scripture. I try, when evaluating scripture, to get the story as close to Jesus or the Father saying it as possible.

(Joh 6:39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

(Joh 6:40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(Joh 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(Joh 6:54) Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

(Joh 11:24) Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.


The last day is only used as a phrase 8 times in the bible with five of them directly referring to the resurrection. Jesus beyond a doubt taught that the resurrection would be on a day referred to as the "last day". Since Jesus says that the resurrection is on the last day, everywhere we see the resurrection depicted in scripture would therefore be the last day. The details we are given in the various accounts of the resurrection are part of the same story called the last day.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The group shown in Rev 20:4 would certainly be among those spoken of by Jesus in John 6/11. That means that Rev 20:4 occurs at the last day. That makes the last day just before the beginning of the millennium and just after Armageddon. There should be other scriptures to confirm this, which there are.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The seventh trumpet begins to sound when the mystery of God is finished as He has declared to His servants the prophets. The should be time no longer. Makes sense no time after the last day and resurrection.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ and He shall reign forever at the seventh trumpet. Again makes perfect sense that Jesus begins to reign after the last day when He resurrects the saints. The nations were angry, thy wrath has came, the time of the dead/reward given to the saints (resurrection). This all occurs during and after Armageddon once again verifying the accuracy of the Post-Wrath perspective. Revelation isn't the only verification we have there is also Daniel 7.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The AC wars against the saints until Jesus returns and the time comes for them to inherit the kingdom (seventh trumpet). See it all interconnects weaving a simple yet complicated story. Matthew 24 also describes the resurrection in association to the return of Jesus. So we can know that Matthew 24 also refers to the "last day" by association of it with the resurrection. Now the whole can of worms opens up because the cosmic signs are associated with the return of Jesus which is associated with the resurrection thus linking it all to the "last day". Now that we have the cosmic signs connected we can scan the OT to let's say Isaiah 13.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Now we have the "day of the Lord" associated with the cosmic signs which connects it to the resurrection and again the "last day". It is just a big circle of scriptures always leading back to the same story if that makes sense. Anyway I'll stop for now here and then delve into the "day of the Lord" scriptures to further our view into the event the whole bible screams of; the second coming of Christ. It's all about Jesus written before the foundation of the earth...gives me goose bumps to consider it at times.

Peace,
Seeker

[beeps]

Keep going.......on the last day the world is burned up with a feverent heat....I take that to mean it is destroyed. Is not the millenuim just a 'spiritual' word for the perfect amount of time that signifies eternity.

Good work. I wish my brain worked that clearly.

[mela]

Seeker...ya took the words right out of my mouth regarding "goosebumps". I surely got them reading your last post!!!

[Seeker]

Hi beeps,

Keep going.......on the last day the world is burned up with a feverent heat....I take that to mean it is destroyed. Is not the millenuim just a 'spiritual' word for the perfect amount of time that signifies eternity.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

There is a new earth after the old earth during the millennium with new Jerusalem as her capital. That is where Jesus rules and reigns from according to scripture. I take the words of the bible literally so believe in a literal 1,000 years. Eternity really isn't described during the millennium. People still live and die during that span of time as shown by the infant/old man millennial passages of Isaiah 65:20. To me eternity starts after Satan's last rebellion following the 1,000 years. We still have death until the end of the 1,000 years. Why 1,000 years I have no clue...maybe as Peter says 1,000 years as a day is relevant here. Perhaps the 1,000 years is the "day of the Lord" that Jesus rules earth. That would be my best guess.

Good work. I wish my brain worked that clearly.

Thanks but it is more that I have just gone over and over these scriptures so many times in the last few years it all finally clicked at least well enough to sort of explain it that is. Still a lot of loose ends to be tied down but we are making progress.

Peace,
Seeker

[mela]

I just want to mentioned something without getting off track here (hopefully).
2 Peter 3:9 seems to be saying (IMO) that to hope for a pre-trib rapture is possibly selfish in a way. The Lord wants none to perish and I think the GT will be a time when many will come to the Lord.

[Sherree]

Man, it sure is good to be able to get back here! I've had the swine flu then pulled a muscle in my back that kept me away from the board. All is well now, so here I am!!!!

A very good thought, mela! I agree.....

[Seeker]

Hi Mela,

2 Peter 3:9 seems to be saying (IMO) that to hope for a pre-trib rapture is possibly selfish in a way. The Lord wants none to perish and I think the GT will be a time when many will come to the Lord.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Yes I can sort of see what you mean in 3:12-15. What kind of people should we be?...hastening the destruction of earth and loss of sinners??? They were undergoing extreme persecution at the time risking their very lives to be Christian and yet Peter seems to say hey be glad the Lord is long suffering and just stay about our business of keeping our noses clean until the Lord returns. And these people were dying and being tortured for their faith at the time. They certainly weren't expecting a pre-trib rapture obviously since they were in tribulation.

I think they were just expressing wanting rescued from their tribulations. Peter is writing to remind them of what they had been taught. A warning to be patient under the most trying conditions. There is much here in 2Peter3 that is applicable for the post-wrath church. I am sure many will be crying out at that time where is your God as they are beheading saints. We will need to remember these words of Peter's in the future and be glad the Lord prolongs His return to rapture us. That day Peter describes as the day the earth and heavens will melt with fervant heat. The only thing that will be left standing is faith in Christ. Everything else will be burnt as chaff when Jesus returns. We best be about the Lord's business when He does arrive is sort of what I see Peter as warning them about.

Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I think the delay here in Matt 24:48 is the same thing Peter is warning about.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Here it is again in Luke 17. All these scriptures show two groups present at the return of Jesus. They also show that if we aren't about the Lord's business we will end up in the wrong group that day. The ones that are taken in the Noah and Lot examples are the sinners. The righteous are left. Luke 17:37 makes sense from a post-wrath perspective also. Where the body is (those that die/sinners) there will the eagles/vultures be gathered. Birds feasting reminds me very much of this and this.

Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Eze 39:17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

Which it should because they are the same event that Matt 24 and Luke 17 both speak of. Again all the scriptures always bring us full circle back to a post-wrath scenario. Thanks for bringing that up Mela.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Sherree,

Man, it sure is good to be able to get back here! I've had the swine flu then pulled a muscle in my back that kept me away from the board. All is well now, so here I am!!!

Swine flu oh no I am so glad you are ok. And pulled muscles are no fun either hope all is still ok and things are good with the back. Welcome back sorry about the delay but I was needing some time to recharge the batteries so wasn't around to reply. Anyway glad all is well.

Peace,
Seeker

[mela]

Wonderful post...I am almost speechless! So many things are getting much clearer.
Our Lord is long suffering for us. If we want to be Christ like, we must be willing to be long suffering too!

[Seeker]

Hi Mela,

Yes amen on the praise God guy. It really is neat how all the scriptures reinforce one another when we consider them from a post-wrath perspective. That has been my experience at least.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

SEEKER!!!!!! Man, it's good to have you back! I have to admit that I was getting a little worried about you and this thread!

All is going great for me now. Just having to endure all this cold weather!

That was another great post, BTW. Once I started looking at scriptures from a post-wrath perspective, all the pieces began falling into place for me, too. Now, It's hard for me to understand how others can see it in any other way.

[Seeker]

The Day of the Lord (DOTL)

This is a phrase from the OT and also from the NT. If we can understand what the DOTL is it will be much easier to place it properly in our endtime perspectives. I will first discuss where this phrase is used in the New Testament and then refer to the OT as a second witness to what the NT shows concerning the DOTL and we will see that they are indeed the same day in both testaments.

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Since we have been discussing 2Peter3 I'll start there. Peter is clearly linking the promise Jesus made to return to the phrase "day of the Lord". Peter also says that the DOTL will come as a thief in the night which connects to our next NT DOTL phrase.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The phrase "thief in the night" is in both descriptions of the NT DOTL.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The sinners say peace and safety and then sudden destruction is upon them. This is just exactly like Jesus says it will be in the Noah/Lot examples. They will be going about as if nothing disasterous is going to happen and boom there it is. Just as in the same day stepped into the ark they were destroyed. Notice also 1Th 5:4....But you brothers are not in darkness that that day will overtake you as a thief. What day? The day of the Lord. Again two groups the sinners who are suddenly destroyed and the saints who are not in darkness on that day.

1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:23 positively links this day of the Lord with the second coming of Jesus as well. The next NT DOTL I want to discuss is Acts 2:20 which totally seals the connection between the day of the Lord of the OT and the return of Christ in the NT.

Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Paul quotes Joel here in Acts 2.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

This is when the Lord steps in and defeats an invading army in Israel earlier in Joel 2. The OT day of the Lord always shows an army that God defeats in Israel and then gathering Israel to Himself forever after. Joel gives us a great clue here. The cosmic signs (sun/moon/stars darkened) occur before the day of the Lord. If the day of the Lord and the return of Jesus are the same then we should also see the cosmic signs in the NT around the return of Jesus.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

And sure enough there they are twice, both times in association with the return of Jesus. NT confirms OT and OT is the foundation of the NT. Now in Rev 6 we can see that the wrath of the Lamb is after the cosmic signs confirming that the wrath of the OT DOTL and the wrath of the Lamb in the NT DOTL are also one and the same. Using the cosmic signs we can add other scriptures to our base of understanding.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

There we go again nations gathered against Jerusalem. So Joel confirms what Zechariah shows.

Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Oba 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Oba 1:17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

Isa 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isa 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Again we see the strong connection to the DOTL and the defeat of the armies assaulting Israel. That brings us to Eze 38-39 the Gog/Magog war. There we see the same thing. God defeats armies in Israel and then Israel are his people and He is their God at the conclusion of the war that God wins against Gog. Same setup there. It is all over the bible. Now back to Peter and the fervent fire that melts the elements. Peter connects that to the DOTL and the return of Christ.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Th 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

Here we see Jesus being revealed from heaven in flaming fire taking vengence on sinners. Matches Peter's fiery description quite well.

Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jesus is said to be "revealed" in flaming fire in 2Th1. There is fire in many places associated with the DOTL so what Peter says about the fervent heat fits the overall pattern as well. Once we see that the DOTL and the return of Jesus are one and the same scripture becomes immensly easier to understand. Everywhere I see the cosmic signs in scripture I also see the return of Jesus. Everywhere I see God defeating an army in Israel and then Israel returning to Him forever, I see the return of Christ. When I see heaven rolling up as a scroll (Rev 6, Isaiah 34) I see the return of Christ. It all becomes so much easier to understand and what is even more amazing is that all the scriptures line up to agree. I have to believe what they are all telling me so therefore I have to believe we will be here to witness Armageddon and more.

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

Wow, all I can say is AMEN and AMEN!!!