Post-Wrath

[Seeker]

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


It's that simple....

Peace,
Seeker

[Abiding in His Word]

I agree.

[lamb7]

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


It's that simple....

Peace,
Seeker

Yes, that simple...but escapes the attention of many in their search for the truth.

[Sherree]

Yes it does, and it's so sad.All we can do is continue to pray for them, because I used to be blind to this, too. Prayerfully, hopefully our Lord will open their eyes soon as things seem to be speeding up drastically!

[mguard]

I'm with you guys...I didn't even know this was an option (Post- wrath), I just knew we would be here throughout the whole thing. Can't argue with scripture

[Sherree]

Ok, what's the difference between post wrath and post trib? A slow mind wants to know!

[Seeker]

Hi mguard,

I didn't even know this was an option (Post- wrath),

It's not I just made it up a couple weeks ago...lol...Well I was tired of being lumped in the post-trib group when my views were actually post wrath so just grabbed that for a name. Post-trib technically includes pre-wrath so mainly to set apart from pre-wrath I chose post-wrath. But as you say can't argue with scripture. I plan to lay out the full case for post-wrath here but wanted to start as simple as possible. I have tried to write the opening post to this thread three or four times now. Figured just keep it simple to start and then lay the evidence out from there. Matt 13 puts it as directly as it can be put so that seemed like the place to start. Everyone feel free to post scriptures and such supporting the post-wrath perspective and we'll see where this leads. It should help us to put it all in order and understand the events more fully.

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

Wow seeker, that sounds like a great idea!

[Seeker]

Hi Sherree,

Ok, what's the difference between post wrath and post trib?

Post-trib would technically be anything after the tribulation. So pre-wrath and many other views can be lumped into post-trib. My view is that we are here to see the wrath but not subject to that wrath. Just as was the case with Noah. Noah witnessed the flood around him but was safe through the flood/wrath. In Egypt the first born Egyptians were killed while the Israeli's were safe in the houses beside the Egyptians. Again they were not subject to the wrath but were witnesses to it. They experienced the wrath but they were not appointed to wrath. Same with Lot. They were led within eyesight of the destruction of Sodom but not subject to that wrath. Jesus tells us His return will be just as the days of Noah and Lot. So when we look at those examples we see that even though they experienced the wrath they were not subject to the wrath.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

So the basic difference mainly is that most post-trib believe we won't be around to see the wrath of God where I think scripture shows we will be here after the wrath has began thus post-wrath. Hope that answers it for you.

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

Thanks seeker! That's the same way I believe it, too. I've always called myself post-trib, though. I think we will be here for God's wrath, but protected from it! Praise God! I've never thought, as other post-tribbers do, that we would be raptured out from God's wrath. That view would still be saying that Jesus would have to come twice more, instead of only one more time, and that, at the very end! Did that make any sense? I do have trouble getting my point across from time to time, so bear with me, ok?

[Seeker]

Makes perfect sense to me I have had those same thoughts. I figured there might be a few of us out there. I think as we lay all the scriptures out in one thread it will become apparent to more people that is what the scriptures say. It's just hard to wrap my little mind around the numerous scriptures pertaining to the return of Jesus and the relationship between the scriptures describing His return. They all seem to support the post-wrath perspective as I am sure you are aware as well. It's just putting it all together that is tough so maybe we can do that here. That's my hope anyway that we can understand it all a bit better at the end of this discussion.

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

Ok then.....Carry on!!!!! I'm waiting in anticipation! It's gotta be good, since it's all God's word!

[Seeker]

The first reaction to a post-wrath view is usually but were are not appointed to wrath. I agree 100% with that scripture but let's look at it in detail because a doctrine has been built around a single verse. Let's look at the verse in context.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

(1Th 4:13-1Th 5:10)

Paul is describing the rapture and tells them he doesn't need to write about the timing because they know to be watching. That day comes as a thief to those not watching as opposed to those watching. Catch that? Two groups shown here those watching and those not at the time the Lord returns. Those not watching are appointed to destruction whereas those watching won't be taken off guard when Jesus returns as a thief in the night. That is really all it is saying. No mention of being raptured out before the return as a thief. Both groups present when Jesus returns with sudden destruction coming upon those not watching. For yourselves know perfectly that day of the Lord comes as a thief. But you are not in darkness so that day does not overtake you as a thief. You have to be there that day to have the possibility of it overtaking you as a thief.

When Jesus returns there will be two groups, one for destruction and one for rapture. So in reality here the scriptures show that even the "not appointed to wrath" verses support post-wrath as it shows two groups at the arrival of Jesus. Also of note here in these verses is that Paul is talking about Jesus returning to resurrect the dead in Christ and then rapture those alive and remaining in 1Th4 and as the story continues into 1Th5 he describes that same day as "the day of the Lord" in 1Th 5:2. This is part of the proof that the OT "day of the Lord" and the NT return of Jesus are one and the same.

Not being appointed to wrath does not mean we can't be here. The fact is that in most cases where the return of Jesus is spoken of there are two groups represented. One fit for destruction and one for rapture. As we continue to examine scriptures we will see the order or sequence laid out in plain and simple language. For now it is good enough to know that there are usually two groups shown when Jesus arrives and we are one of those groups.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Two groups one taken (sinners) and one left (saints) because it will be just as it was in the days of Noah. They knew not until the flood came and took them all away...who was taken in the flood?...

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

Now that's about as plain and simple as it can get! Thanks, seeker!

[SueAnn]

All right. You've captured my attention and interest. This is the first I ever heard of this interpretation. I have 2 questions.

1.) Why are the angels separating the believers from the unbelievers, instead of Jesus?

2.) What is the purpose of the rapture if we are going to be here throughtout the Wrath of God?

Wrath...Jesus returns...angels seperate us...the nonbelievers are destroyed...the believers are not...Jesus reigns for 1000 years. So where are the believers while Jesus reigns? Aren't we here with Him? When we meet up with Him in the air do we then come back down again with Him or are we taken (raptured) to Heaven?


I know I'm not seeing this clearly. It makes sense up until the rapture part. Is it possible that we never really leave the earth at all?

Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Seeker]

Hi SueAnn,

All right. You've captured my attention and interest. This is the first I ever heard of this interpretation. I have 2 questions.

1.) Why are the angels separating the believers from the unbelievers, instead of Jesus?

2.) What is the purpose of the rapture if we are going to be here throughtout the Wrath of God?

Wrath...Jesus returns...angels seperate us...the nonbelievers are destroyed...the believers are not...Jesus reigns for 1000 years. So where are the believers while Jesus reigns? Aren't we here with Him? When we meet up with Him in the air do we then come back down again with Him or are we taken (raptured) to Heaven?


I know I'm not seeing this clearly. It makes sense up until the rapture part. Is it possible that we never really leave the earth at all?

Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't know why Jesus sends His angels but His angels are always shown with Him when He returns to earth as these scriptures show.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

It might be that one of the angels jobs is to escort the dead to heaven as Luke indicates here.

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Why was the begger carried by angels? Angels serve many functions before the Lord. They are messengers of good and bad tidings, they also deliver wrath as shown in Revelation.

Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

I think Rev 16:1 shows us that the angels with Jesus arriving are pouring out the wrath of God. The angels are always mentioned with the arrival of Jesus. They seperate the wicked from among the just in Matt 13. The angels apparently are charged with the task of reaping the earth. As to why I don't know but I just read what it says and go by that.

Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

2.) What is the purpose of the rapture if we are going to be here throughtout the Wrath of God?

I don't know that either but let's look at the scriptures and what they say concerning the rapture.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The comfort here is the knowledge that those who are dead will live again. They will be resurrected. So I would say the main purpose of the rapture would be to bring the dead back to life and gather the alive saints also. 1Th4 lays out the sequence of events. 1Th4 says that if we believe that Jesus died and rose then those that also sleep in Jesus God will bring with Him. The dead saints arrive with God when He returns to earth to rapture us.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Then after that it says that the Lord will descend from heaven (with the voice of an archangel) and the dead in Christ shall rise first and then us who are alive. So before we ever are raptured to be with Christ, God has already resurrected those who have died in the faith. If there is a resurrection just before our rapture then that should be easy to find in scripture. Where do we find the first resurrection in the bible?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

There are the dead in Christ being resurrected in Rev 20:4, it is the "first" resurrection and includes those who have died for their faith. If this is the first resurrection then wouldn't that be the group in heaven that God brings with Him? See what I mean if the dead in Christ have been raised from the dead before we are raptured and that resurrection is at Rev 20:4 then we are not raptured until after the resurrection which is after Rev 19 (Armageddon).

Wrath...Jesus returns...angels seperate us...the nonbelievers are destroyed...the believers are not...Jesus reigns for 1000 years. So where are the believers while Jesus reigns? Aren't we here with Him? When we meet up with Him in the air do we then come back down again with Him or are we taken (raptured) to Heaven?

The believers are with Jesus for the 1,000 years. That begins at the "first resurrection" shown in Rev 20:4. I say that Rev 20:4 is the same resurrection as shown in 1Th4. So the dead rising first are those resurrected in Rev 20:4. Does that clear it up for you. The rapture still has the same purpose to reap the earth. The purpose of the rapture is not to remove us from harm but to gather us to be with the Lord forever. 1Th4 does say that we meet them in the air but it is after they have returned in wrath with Jesus at Armageddon (Rev 19:14/armies of heaven). That's the way I see it anyway. I understand this is hard to see and that is exactly why I wanted to start this thread. It is easier for me to answer questions about it than to try to explain it in a post or two. This way I have a whole thread to try and explain it.

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

Good job, seeker!

The way I've always looked at it concerning the rapture and our being gathered together with Him is this....When Christ returns, He will gather us who are alive and remaining into the air to be with Him. We will then escort Him back to Earth where we will be where He is. That's His purpose, to return to the Earth to establish His kingdom for 1000 years. I don't believe there will be an event that will cause us to be taken away to heaven for any length of time. He's coming back to establish His kingdom, and we will be here with Him to do so.

Is this the same thing you see, seeker? I really don't want to interrupt what you're doing here in this thread, but thought I would share what I thought concerning the "rapture" event itself. Hope that was ok????

[extravagantchristian]

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,


It's that simple....

Peace,
Seeker

There could be another option.

When is the "end of the world"? At armageddon? Or after 1,000 year reign of Christ?

It seems fitting to me that the "end of the world" would be when the heavens and earth melt with fervent heat, not at Jesus' second coming because the world will not end when Jesus returns. Making way for the new heavens and the new earth to be made after the wicked are severed from the just, after the second death.

So how would the wicked be severed from the just?

Revelation 20:15
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The "judgment seat of Christ" is the great white throne.

Romans 14:10
For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

It baffles me as to how the concept ever came about that the righteous would be judged separately from the wicked. The bible does not read that way. We were indoctrinated with this theory before we ever got the chance to understand the word on our own. Just like pre-trib rapture. Maybe it's because we Christians tend to think that we are above reproach and that God would never bring up our sins again in front of the whole world, like we're so above the "sinners". After all, our sins are on the bottom of the ocean floor, and as far as the east is from the west, that's how far they have been removed from us right? But we are sinners. And every sin we commit and idle word we speak is being written in a book and we will give an account. On the same level as the rest of the sinners. Because our sins affect the people around us, and unfortunately alot of the time our sins affect the lost. You better believe that God wants everyone to be present at the judgment, so that we can all see the full effect of our disobedience. It will be hard. Parents will see the result their sin had on their children. Kind of like a domino effect. It will be justice for the oppressed, that every secret deed will br brought to the light for everyone to see.

But afterwards God will wipe every tear from our eye, and there will be no more sorrow and no more pain for the former things will be passed away. And we will live with Him forever in the new heavens and new earth.

[1whowaits]

EC, i would agree, the world does not end at armageddon, but it does at the time of the GWTJ. In Matt 13 the unrighteous are gathered first before the wheat, the righteous, while in Rev 14 the wheat, the righteous, are gathered first before the grapes, the unrighteous, are trampled at armageddon. Because of the different orders of collection and the reality that the world does not end at armageddon (but it does at the GWTJ), Matt 13 and Matt 24(and Rev 14) are describing 2 different events at opposite ends of the millenium. And the righteous and the unrighteous receive their rewards and punishments at the same time, as Matt 25 describes at the sheep and goats event, aka the GWTJ.

[extravagantchristian]

Can you imagine how long it's going to take for every deed and every word to be accounted for? How many trillions of people have been created?

It's almost like it would take the same amount of time as the beginning of the world until the end, but that's if millions of people's lives are accounted for at the same time.

What if it's like, one person at a time?

That would take a really long time. And like, all of the people who are in hell will be released so that they can be at the judgement, and they will be alive there for as long as the whole process takes, which i'm sure will be a relief from being in hell all this time, and they will get to see the glory of God right in front of their face, and they will have to recount all of their sins and realize that they chose to rebel instead of be saved. Oh my goodness. I just can't imagine that kind of pain. Except they will have healthy minds at that time, with which to view everything with, instead of the broken mind that caused them to turn away from God, so they will have full recognition of just how precious they really are. Then to have to go back to the fire and remember for eternity what it was like to be in the glorious presence of God, and then never again. Wow.

[lamb7]

Can you imagine how long it's going to take for every deed and every word to be accounted for? How many trillions of people have been created?

It's almost like it would take the same amount of time as the beginning of the world until the end, but that's if millions of people's lives are accounted for at the same time.

What if it's like, one person at a time?

That would take a really long time. And like, all of the people who are in hell will be released so that they can be at the judgement, and they will be alive there for as long as the whole process takes, which i'm sure will be a relief from being in hell all this time, and they will get to see the glory of God right in front of their face, and they will have to recount all of their sins and realize that they chose to rebel instead of be saved. Oh my goodness. I just can't imagine that kind of pain. Except they will have healthy minds at that time, with which to view everything with, instead of the broken mind that caused them to turn away from God, so they will have full recognition of just how precious they really are. Then to have to go back to the fire and remember for eternity what it was like to be in the glorious presence of God, and then never again. Wow.

Interesting thoughts, EC. I imagine it almost like sci-fi. Where God is, is a different plain of space and time. We will be in our spiritual bodies in a spiritual realm. When we walk under the rod of judgement, it could be that everything from our lives could flash within the blink of an eye, and everyone involved will just see and understand. Still time-consuming from the way you put it, but maybe not as long as we think. Maybe time doesn't even exist...even weirder, huh?

Either way...I believe we are here for it all, if that be God's will. It plainly states, if I may use KA's post:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

In Christ,
lamb

[Seeker]

Hi Sherree,

The way I've always looked at it concerning the rapture and our being gathered together with Him is this....When Christ returns, He will gather us who are alive and remaining into the air to be with Him. We will then escort Him back to Earth where we will be where He is. That's His purpose, to return to the Earth to establish His kingdom for 1000 years. I don't believe there will be an event that will cause us to be taken away to heaven for any length of time. He's coming back to establish His kingdom, and we will be here with Him to do so.

Is this the same thing you see, seeker? I really don't want to interrupt what you're doing here in this thread, but thought I would share what I thought concerning the "rapture" event itself. Hope that was ok????

I am inviting discussion so yes that is fine. I don't fully understand it all either. I bet a group of us can work through it all though. The reason I moved away from us joining Jesus in the air before Armageddon were these scriptures.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jude tells us that Jesus arrives with ten thousands of His saints. Good and well matches pre-wrath if that is all the saints. But when we add these verses a conflict arises.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Joh 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
Joh 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus says beyond a doubt that the resurrection is on the "last day". How can being resurrected prior to Armageddon be considered the last day? I have never seen an adaquate explanation for that. Now if this was the only place that indicated that the resurrection was at the end of the last 7 years, I could dismiss it. But that is not the case. There are other scriptures that show the same thing.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

A group that refused the mark of the beast is included as part of the resurrection of Rev 20:4. They can only refuse the mark while the AC is in power. He is only in power for the last 3 1/2 years. His mark is only shown in Rev 13 after his reign begins earlier in the chapter. Since Rev 20:4 shows a group that refused there mark it proves that the resurrection is after the reign of the AC (end of last 7 years). Well it and another set of verses proves it.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

When the fifth seal is opened there is a group of souls who ask how long before their blood is avenged. They are told to wait until their brothers were killed as they were and then we see the 6th seal (cosmic signs). So they will be killed up until the 6th seal or cosmic signs. Does that make sense in light of other scripture? Yes.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after the 3 1/2 year tribulation is over we see the same cosmic signs as in Rev 6 confirming that saints will be killed up until the cosmic signs which occur after the 3 1/2 tribulation which is after the middle of the last 7 years. So again the saints will be killed until the tribulation ends. We know exactly when the tribulation starts and ends.

Beginning of the tribulation

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

End of the tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

The AOD is at the middle of the last 7 years so the beginning is easy to nail. To see how long it lasts after its beginning we go to Daniel just as the Lord instructs in 24:15.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The AC gets to make war against and prevail over the saints until the Ancient of days arrives and the time for the saints to possess the kingdom arrives. See that proves the AC kills the saints until Jesus returns.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The amount of time that the AC kills the saints is 3 1/2 years as shown in Dan 7:25. So the saints at the fifth seal must wait until the 3 1/2 years have ended. After the AC kills their brothers as they were killed (until the end of the last 7 years) then the saints are given the everlasting kingdom of God.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Now in Dan 12 we can verify that there are 3 1/2 years after the removal of the daily sacrifice (AOD). Daniel verifies the information in Matt 24. Between Daniel and Matthew we can know the following:

The worst tribulation that Israel has or will ever see begins following the AOD (Matt 24:15) which Dan 9:27 tells us is around the middle of the 70th week. That tribulation lasts for 3 1/2 years until the saints possess the kingdom (Dan 7:22 & 27). That tribulation also lasts until we see the cosmic signs because immediately after the tribulation the cosmic signs are said to occur (Matt 24:29). So if we start at the midpoint and add 3 1/2 years that gets us to exactly the last day of the 70th week for the cosmic signs. Our timing is set precisely by scripture. Regardless of who you think goes first the above scriptures prove that Jesus does not return prior to the very end of the last 7 years. In fact Jesus tells us that very plainly in Matt 24.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Jesus tells us explicitly NOT to believe any man trying to tell us Jesus has already arrived and this is after the AOD. This absolutely proves that pre-trib is a false teaching by the way. I know you aren't pre-trib but I just wanted to point that out for others who may be viewing. Now here is where Jesus actually does return in scripture.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That return is after the sign of the Son of man in heaven (Matt 24:30) which is after the cosmic signs which is immediatley after the tribulation which is 3 1/2 years after the AOD which occurs in the middle of the last 7 years. No matter how we look at it that gets us to the ending of the last 7 years before Jesus can arrive since the cosmic signs are before His return and after the 3 1/2 year tribulation. Armageddon occurs before the last 7 years end correct? So we will be here to see Armageddon which is part of the wrath of God therefore Post-Wrath rather than pre-wrath.

Peace,
Seeker

[Abiding in His Word]

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

It's that simple....

What happened to the simplicity, Seeker?

Your last post is a bit more complicated and time doesn't allow right now for me to read all of it, but I'll try later today.

[Seeker]

It is that simple I am just showing all the scripture that proves its that simple...lol.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi extravagantchristian,

There could be another option.

When is the "end of the world"? At armageddon? Or after 1,000 year reign of Christ?

It seems fitting to me that the "end of the world" would be when the heavens and earth melt with fervent heat, not at Jesus' second coming because the world will not end when Jesus returns. Making way for the new heavens and the new earth to be made after the wicked are severed from the just, after the second death.

You got it right the end of the world is when the heavens and earth melt in fervant heat. 2Peter3 addresses that very point let's look closely at what it says.

2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

At this point we need to ask ourselves what promise is Peter referring to? It has to do with the last days when there will be scoffers (false teachers). Those false teachers are saying where is the promise of His coming? Aw there we go the promise is the promise that Jesus made that He would return to gather His followers. So what Peter is talking about is the day that Jesus returns to gather us so that we may be with Him eternally.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Peter's response to the view of the scoffers is that Jesus hasn't returned yet so all could repent and be saved. Again very clear Peter is talking about the second coming of Christ here in 2Pe3.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The very next verse Peter refers to the day Jesus returns as a thief as the day of the Lord. In which (during the return of Jesus) the heavens shall pass away and the elements melt with a fervant heat and the earth with all things in it is burnt up. We can certainly verify that the heavens pass away at the return of Jesus in Matt 24.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

The cosmic signs are when the heavens pass away which can be seen in the scriptures above. The cosmic signs occur just before Jesus is seen in the clouds in Matt 24. So yes the earth and heavens are melted with fervent heat just as Jesus arrives in the clouds.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi 1whowaits,

EC, i would agree, the world does not end at armageddon, but it does at the time of the GWTJ. In Matt 13 the unrighteous are gathered first before the wheat, the righteous, while in Rev 14 the wheat, the righteous, are gathered first before the grapes, the unrighteous, are trampled at armageddon. Because of the different orders of collection and the reality that the world does not end at armageddon (but it does at the GWTJ), Matt 13 and Matt 24(and Rev 14) are describing 2 different events at opposite ends of the millenium. And the righteous and the unrighteous receive their rewards and punishments at the same time, as Matt 25 describes at the sheep and goats event, aka the GWTJ.

Can you point out in Rev 20 where you see the heavens and earth destroyed at the GWTJ?

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

At this point the earth has been reaped by Jesus. If the earth is reaped here who is reaped below this verse? If the earth was reaped no one would be left to be reaped in 14:18 so 14:18 must be a repeat of the events in 14:16 and above. Same story twice basically.

Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Rev 14:17-20 and into Rev 15 is a magnified view of the earlier description. In this view we see the angels reaping those who get thrown in the winepress of the wrath of God. This matches everywhere else in the bible where angels do the reaping.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

And as we continue into Rev 15 we see the saints raptured. So again same sequence matching the teachings of Matt 13 in the wheat/tare and net parables which show the sinners going first as Jesus arrives for the harvest.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi Sherree,

I wanted to follow up just a bit a address the actual moment of our departure as best I can see from scripture. The Lord gathers the dead in Christ first according to 1Th4. He also brings the dead in Christ with Him when He departs for earth according to 1Th4:14.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord will descend from heaven and the dead shall rise first. So before we are raptured as the Lord descends toward earth He raises the dead in Christ and they accompany Him to earth. This satifies the requirement that the dead in Christ rise first. Like I have shown Jude 1 verifies that saints are with Jesus as He arrives in the clouds.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

They return with the Lord to execute judgment. Now we can see a group with Jesus as He arrives at Armageddon from heaven.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

They are armies which were in heaven. This would seem to be the same group Jude is speaking of to me. How many times does Jesus leave heaven with armies to conquer evil? Now with those scriptures in mind let's look back to Matt 13 and simply read what it says.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus says quite clearly that the tares go first. Who am I to dispute that especially since I find every other instant of His return supporting that same concept? There comes a point in time when we all must face the facts laid out in scripture. I don't see any angels gathering the elect at the end of the millennium this has to be about the beginning of the millennium when Jesus returns. That is what the simple plain reading suggests and every other scripture I find supports it if we examine it close enough.

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

I mean read the words the wicked are severed from among the just. The wicked and just grow together until the end of the world and the angels remove the tares first. It is shown in connection to every instance where the return of Jesus is shown in scripture. If I only had one vague scripture I could understand but all scriptures lean that direction. That is why I must believe that we are here until after the sinners are dealt with. That's why I was talking about two groups earlier in this thread. I knew I would need to talk about it later. There are almost always two groups shown at the return of Jesus. They are always both dealt with at the same time. There is never a staggered rapture shown that I can find. It is always with both groups present. That automatically eliminates pre-trib and pre-wrath as they both have the reaping seperated into two seperate events at two different times which doesn't match what the scriptures show.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Two groups mourners and elect.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Two groups those Jesus takes vengence on and all those that believe in that day.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Two groups those hiding and the great multitude in heaven.

Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Two groups those in the winepress and those who gained victory of the MOB.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Two groups AC/evil those that reign with Christ 1,000 years.

There are always both groups present it seems. The only theory that can accomodate that is a Post-Wrath theory. Nothing else out there has both groups raptured at the same event, the return of Jesus. Both groups are always there even in the OT. And have you also noticed that the evil group is listed first in sequence in all those examples. It seems so obvious to me but I have been seeing it for some time now. So I am glad you ask questions and I will try to explain as fully and completely as I know how. It may be a scrambled mess by the end of the thread but it will all be in there somewhere...lol.

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

Seeker I have a question......

"The very next verse Peter refers to the day Jesus returns as a thief as the day of the Lord. In which (during the return of Jesus) the heavens shall pass away and the elements melt with a fervant heat and the earth with all things in it is burnt up. We can certainly verify that the heavens pass away at the return of Jesus in Matt 24."

I can't get my mind wrapped around the idea that when Jesus returns the heavens and Earth are totally destroyed. What then would be left for Jesus to rule and reign over during the 1000 yr. reign?

You're doing a great job for everyone here!!!

I just wanted to add seeker, that so far, I haven't found anything that I disagree with you on.

[Pretzelogical]

This may be my favorite thread - thanks to all of you faithful Bereans, once again! I'll just pick one thing on which to comment:

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Sea = sea of humanity; all tribes, nations and tongues.
Sea of glass = humanity at rest in Him; those people of the perfect Prince of peace, the believers.
Fire = judgment. The fire is people being tested in order to be judged. Evil will be consumed.
Therefore, a sea of glass mixed with fire pictures the believers, who are resting in peace, mingled with the people who are judged.

Scripture gives us the example of silver going through the fire. Silver (a believer) passes through the fire to be purified and tested to see if it is truly silver; but the silver is not destroyed. Believers, therefore pass through the fire to become pure and clear, like a sea of glass, a mirror reflecting the image of Jesus. Silver brings healing even though it is not deemed as valuable as gold. Micah made an idol of silver, much like the idol of false peace we see today in Rick Warren's P.E.A.C.E. Plan. (Don't even get me started! Grrrr!) We need to be purified so we can bring Jesus' healing to those burned.

In order to believe the pre-trib view, you must abandoned the poetic symbolism of scripture and miss out on so much of what God says in His word! He says the same thing over and over. It is one message. It is the command to believe on the LORD Jesus in order to stand firm in His mercy and grace, by the power of His word and Spirit, while living among the unfaithful and being persecuted, until God judges all and starts over again with the faithful ruling the next time. We see this repeated throughout the scriptures. I especially like Esther right now. The word "God" is nowhere in the book, but He is there! Queen Esther does not hide herself in the kingdom, but pleads before the king for the sake of her people who are mingled in the sea of humanity. May we be that fervent in our prayers for one another! Amen!

It is Satan who says, "Did God not say..." in order to rob the message from those who do not stand firm. Knowing the word is our stronghold!

James 1: 2-7
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.
For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord, being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

A cool sea of glass mixed with the heat of fire will cause quite a stir! The convection currents will be wilder than chilled cream poured into hot coffee! (Yes, coffee is a great reminder to me to stand firm!) Praise God Jesus and Peter walked on the rough seas! By walking in faith, we can stand firm, shining like a sea of glass while mingled with the fire! That is my prayer, O LORD Christ Jesus. Amen.

[Sherree]

What a wonderful post, Pretz! Thanks a bunch for that! Way cool!

Oh yeah, this is quickly becoming my favorite thread, too. I feel that I'm among a small group of believers that I can truly identify with! God bless all of you!

[SueAnn]

Seeker, Thank you so much for responding to my request for more information. It's a tad complicated for me to understand right now, but help is on the way. I asked the Holy Spirit to Bless this thread with His presence. The Holy Spirit has gotten me out of more than one biblical jam in my life.

The way I've always looked at it concerning the rapture and our being gathered together with Him is this....When Christ returns, He will gather us who are alive and remaining into the air to be with Him. We will then escort Him back to Earth where we will be where He is.

Sherree, as soon as I read your post, particularly the words highlighted in red I had a vision of Jesus entering Jerusalem riding a donkey and surrounded by His believers...who danced and praised Him, laying down palm fronds in His path. Do you think it is possible that the Holy Spirit flashed that scene in my soul so I would understand what it will be like when Jesus returns?

[lamb7]

I asked the Holy Spirit to Bless this thread with His presence.

Now, THAT, is a wonderful idea. Blessing our threads is something I never thought of. I've blessed and prayed for the people on this site, but it never dawned on me that the good Lord could bless our conversations, debates and search for His truth and wisdom.

Thank you, SueAnn! I will now do the same.


In Christ,
lamb

[Abiding in His Word]

Sherree, as soon as I read your post, particularly the words highlighted in red I had a vision of Jesus entering Jerusalem riding a donkey and surrounded by His believers...who danced and praised Him, laying down palm fronds in His path. Do you think it is possible that the Holy Spirit flashed that scene in my soul so I would understand what it will be like when Jesus returns?

I don't want to get too far off topic, but I thought it funny you would mention Jesus riding on a donkey because I had just done a little study this morning on the significance of the donkey. I know it fulfilled the prophecy in Zechariah but found this interesting as well. It's called "Donkey fit for a King." It's a 2-page pdf. file from this site.

[Sherree]

SueAnn, It's possible. I don't believe in the traditional rapture where us as believers are carried away to heaven for a certain period of time. When Jesus returns the dead are raised first, then we who are alive will join them in the air just as the Bible states. We will follow Him to Earth to rule and reign with Him for the 1000 yrs. IMO. The Bible says that we will be caught up in the AIR not off to heaven. How can we, as believers, be in two places at the same time. In heaven AND here on Earth to rule and reign?

When Christ returns it's His purpose to set up His kingdom with us with Him. I think that your vision is a good example.

[extravagantchristian]

Isaiah 40:5
5 The glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

This is interesting.

[SueAnn]

Isaiah 40:5
5 The glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

This is interesting.

Interesting, indeed, extrav.

[SueAnn]

Sherree, as soon as I read your post, particularly the words highlighted in red I had a vision of Jesus entering Jerusalem riding a donkey and surrounded by His believers...who danced and praised Him, laying down palm fronds in His path. Do you think it is possible that the Holy Spirit flashed that scene in my soul so I would understand what it will be like when Jesus returns?

I don't want to get too far off topic, but I thought it funny you would mention Jesus riding on a donkey because I had just done a little study this morning on the significance of the donkey. I know it fulfilled the prophecy in Zechariah but found this interesting as well. It's called "Donkey fit for a King." It's a 2-page pdf. file from this site.

AIHW,
Looking forward to reading your study, that is, if you intend to post it here.

I once heard a preacher exclaim that God did not want the Israelites to have horses because horses meant warfare. Jesus riding into Jerusalem on a donkey signified that He was NOT going to be a military Messiah, as so many Israelis wanted Him to be, to throw off the chains of slavery and occupancy of the Romans. That is why the Israelites did not recognize Jesus. They expected a military leader.

When Jesus returns, He will not be riding a donkey this time. He will be riding a horse, the symbol of warfare. He will smite the enemies of Israel. And this time, the Israelis will KNOW Him for who He is.

How does this fit in with your study, AIHW?

[Seeker]

Hi Sherree,

Thanks for the encouragement and kind words much appreciated bless you.

I can't get my mind wrapped around the idea that when Jesus returns the heavens and Earth are totally destroyed. What then would be left for Jesus to rule and reign over during the 1000 yr. reign?

Yes at first it was hard for me to grasp as well. But I'll tell you what just read what Pretzelogical says about the refining and that answers it. Great post by the way Pretz.

Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Now to understand more of what Zechariah means let's look at the first verses of Zec 13.

Zec 13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

Begs to question what day is "in that day"? For the answer we need to back up and look at Zechariah 12 for a moment. Zec 13 refers back to a previous topic.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Zec 12:2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec 12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec 12:5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec 12:7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
Zec 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zec 12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec 12:12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
Zec 12:14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

That day is the day when God will make Jerusalem a burden to all people round about when they are in seige against Jerusalem (Zec 12:2). In that same day the Lord smites the horses and riders with astonishment; in that day Jerusalem will be inhabited in her own place; in that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; in that day He will destroy all the nations that attack Israel; in that day He will pour his spirit upon the house of Israel....In that day also a third will be brought through the refining fire. So here in Zechariah we can connect Armageddon (when nations attack Israel) to the refining fire of Zec 13. This is at the touchdown of Jesus when He physically sets foot on the mount of Olives. We can also see that touchdown in Rev 19.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Then of course we can link Rev 19 to Ezekiel 38-39. They all tell the same story. Zec 12 and Eze 39 both have Israel returning to the Lord forever after and also the outpouring of God's spirit. Then of course we have Joel again telling the same story of nations gathered to battle Israel.

Joe 2:27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
Joe 3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Joe 3:18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
Again we see the same basic components.

1) Armies attacking Israel
2) God defeating those armies
3) The cosmic signs of Matt 24
4) Israel returning to the Lord
5) God pouring His spirit upon Israel

These are common factors bewtween the stories. There are others as well and sometimes just a couple of them. But when I see the cosmic signs in scripture I can be pretty sure the timeframe is just before Jesus arrives. When I see God's spirit poured out I can be pretty sure it is at the end of the last 7 years when Israel returns to God. Of course they all don't have identical details. We have to be able to recognize the subtle hints in scripture be able to study and pursue different angles and avenues.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

The cosmic signs in this case connects Isaiah 13 to Matt 24. We definitely see massive destruction involved.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here again massive destruction with the cosmic signs which are before the Lord returns.

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Everywhere massive destruction associated with the return of Jesus.

Zep 1:2 I will utterly consume all things from off the land, saith the LORD.
Zep 1:3 I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the LORD.
Zep 1:4 I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests;
Zep 1:5 And them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham;
Zep 1:6 And them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him.
Zep 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Zep 1:8 And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.
Zep 1:9 In the same day also will I punish all those that leap on the threshold, which fill their masters' houses with violence and deceit.
Zep 1:10 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD, that there shall be the noise of a cry from the fish gate, and an howling from the second, and a great crashing from the hills.
Zep 1:11 Howl, ye inhabitants of Maktesh, for all the merchant people are cut down; all they that bear silver are cut off.
Zep 1:12 And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles, and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart, The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.
Zep 1:13 Therefore their goods shall become a booty, and their houses a desolation: they shall also build houses, but not inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, but not drink the wine thereof.
Zep 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

I honestly could keep on posting these destruction scriptures but I think you can see what I mean. Everywhere I connect to the return of Christ has massive destruction accompanying it. I am left with no other conclusion than that Jesus returns in wrath.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Definitely returning in wrath but the great part is...see Pretz's post...lol...Once we conquer our fear of what awaits us and trust in the Lord it is all better and that very uneasy feeling disappears being replaced with a flush of joy and anticipation because...

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Peace,
Seeker

[extravagantchristian]

Seeker are you saying that when Jesus returns the world will literally come to an end? And that when He rules for 1,000 years, it will be in the new heavens and new earth?

Because the NH and NE are going to be a permanent thing, they aren't going to go away, so why would there even need to be a 1,000 year distinction made?

If that's what yo uare saying that would mean that satan will be released to decieve the nations at the end of the 1,000 years ON THE NEW EARTH. But Rev 21 says that on the new earth, there will be no more death, sorrow, crying or pain. How can that be true if satan is running around decieving everyone?

And Rev 21:27 says:

Revelation 21:27 (New King James Version)
27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

So it would be impossible that the 1,000 year rule of Christ would take place on the New Earth, therefore it must take place on this old earth.

[extravagantchristian]

Seeker I re-read your last post and it seems like you're saying that the during God's wrath, the earth will get all messed up and burned and melted, but not be entirely destroied? Is that right?

And that's what you think 2 peter 3 is describing?

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

But 2 peter 3 says that the heavens will pass away, which would mean that they would literally be gone. And the earth is located with-in in the heavens so when it says the earth will be burned up, I'm thinking that means a literal burning up, and it will be gone too.

Which would mean that Jesus would need a new earth to rule on and a new heavens for which the earth to be placed in. And the Bible only describes one instance where there will be a "New heavens and new earth" and satan will not be allowed there.

Another thing I don't get is, you said that you think the rapture will be post-wrath, but then you said that during the wrath of God, 2 peter 3 will happen, that the heavens will pass away and earth will be burned up. How can the rapture happen AFTER all of that? We would all be dead.

[Bethany]

In my personal bible study this week I also came to 2Pe 3:10 and am alittle confused by what it means. I have asked the Lord to give me direction with this. I have not read this thread for a few days and see that others too have mentioned that verse too.

[Seeker]

Ok here I'll try to step through it again concerning 2Peter3. I am really not interpreting anything here just reading exactly what the words say. I am not saying these things happen Peter is. Paul also says these things happen.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Here we see the day of the Lord referenced in direct connection to the return of Jesus in 1Th4. When they (sinners) say peace and safety sudden destruction is upon them. But we are not in darkness so that day would overtake us as a thief. How would that be possible if we weren't here? We are here when the sudden destruction takes the sinners or the warning to be vigilant would make no sense. Who would he be warning? This falls directly in line with the way Jesus said His return would be.

Luk 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

How much clearer can it be put? The sinners are taken the same day that the elect are given protection. Matthew agrees with Peter and Paul on the matter as does every other example of the return of Jesus. If we are here as shown when they are destroyed then that has to be after the wrath of God and Armageddon just as I keep saying. No matter which scripture you look at it always points to destruction with the return of Jesus. I didn't write it I just report it...lol.

Hi extravagantchristian,

Seeker I re-read your last post and it seems like you're saying that the during God's wrath, the earth will get all messed up and burned and melted, but not be entirely destroied? Is that right?

And that's what you think 2 peter 3 is describing?

Yes that is correct that's the way I see scripture describing it.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Isa 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isa 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Nah 1:2 God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
Nah 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.
Nah 1:4 He rebuketh the sea, and maketh it dry, and drieth up all the rivers: Bashan languisheth, and Carmel, and the flower of Lebanon languisheth.
Nah 1:5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Psa 46:1 <To the chief Musician for the sons of Korah, A Song upon Alamoth.> God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.
Psa 46:2 Therefore will not we fear, though the earth be removed, and though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
Psa 46:3 Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah.
Psa 46:4 There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High.
Psa 46:5 God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early.
Psa 46:6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.
Psa 46:7 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.
Psa 46:8 Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.
Psa 46:9 He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.
Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
Psa 46:11 The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.

Psa 97:1 The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
Psa 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: righteousness and judgment are the habitation of his throne.
Psa 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.
Psa 97:4 His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled.
Psa 97:5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Psa 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, and all the people see his glory.

The actual impression I get is that the earth is sort of melted level. The refining fire leaves the core essence but removes man's filth from the earth. Jesus returns in fiery wrath destroying the sinners.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We on the other hand are protected through it just as was the days of Noah and Lot. Noah was all around the destructive flood in fact he floated upon the wrath as it poured out and flooded the earth. Lot was within eyesight of the wrath. The Israelis in Egypt lived next door to those receiving the wrath.

Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

We see a picture of the resurrection (dead men will live). The people are told to enter their chambers for a moment while His indignation passes over. They hide from His wrath as it is dispenced. Somehow there will be protection for God's people while the fire rages past just as Israel stayed in their chambers in Egypt while the Lord took the first born of their very neighbors.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Pretty simple to me just read what it says and believe the words mean exactly what they say. If anyone can find an example of Jesus returning without destruction I would be glad to look at it. Usually there is a connection to destruction somehow.

Peace,
Seeker

[Seeker]

Hi extravagantchristian,

Isaiah 40:5
5 The glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

This is interesting.

Great find I'll add that to my collection. It goes good with this one.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I like Rev 1:7 as it includes three groups. The elect, Israel that pierced Him, and the tares wailing because of Him; everyone looking together as He arrives.

Peace,
Seeker

[extravagantchristian]

Hi extravagantchristian,

Isaiah 40:5
5 The glory of the LORD shall be revealed,
And all flesh shall see it together;
For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

This is interesting.

Great find I'll add that to my collection. It goes good with this one.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I like Rev 1:7 as it includes three groups. The elect, Israel that pierced Him, and the tares wailing because of Him; everyone looking together as He arrives.

Peace,
Seeker

Then Rev 1:7 can't be describing the 2nd coming because those that killed Jesus will not be present on the earth at that time.

So there must be another event where Jesus will "come" somewhere in the clouds, the only event where all of creation will be present.

GWTJ?

[Seeker]

Hi extravagantchristian,

Then Rev 1:7 can't be describing the 2nd coming because those that killed Jesus will not be present on the earth at that time.

Mat 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
Mat 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

So there must be another event where Jesus will "come" somewhere in the clouds, the only event where all of creation will be present.
GWTJ?

Would love to see it if you can find it in scripture.

Peace,
Seeker

[Sherree]

Hi seeker! I believe that there will be almost total destruction when Jesus returns in His wrath. He Himself said that if He didn't shorten those days, no life would be saved. I think that we will be supernaturally protected from this wrath just as you have laid out with Scripture. We aren't told from scripture what Jesus does to the Earth after He has finished His wrath and starts His 1000yr. reign. We see that there will be almost complete destruction at His appearing on one hand, and then we see that for 1000yrs. there seems to be an Earth that is habitable for all living creatures, including ourselves. But....I still don't see this as the New Heaven and New Earth. Just a habitation for His 1000yr. reign. At the end of this reign, then comes the New Heaven and New Earth with the New Jerusalem coming down. This creation will last forever not for just 1000yrs.

I may be off on this, so could you explain if you see differently? This is really a great thread, and I'm loving every minute of it. I'm praying that we all can ask questions and discuss, with the help of the Holy Spirit to find out what our Lord wants us to know and understand. Folks, I don't think we have a lot of time left. I think that within a few years, we're gonna know who the AC is, and the last half will be upon us.

[Seeker]

Hi SueAnn,

Seeker, Thank you so much for responding to my request for more information. It's a tad complicated for me to understand right now, but help is on the way. I asked the Holy Spirit to Bless this thread with His presence. The Holy Spirit has gotten me out of more than one biblical jam in my life.

Sorry about it being complicated that is what I am desperately trying to fix. It is just so complex with so many interacting scriptures that simplicity continues to elude me here. Hey thanks for the help request great idea! Seems to have worked because I had no idea how I was going to respond to 1whowaits as others have challenged me before on Rev 14. Yesterday as I was formulating a response it was as clear as day to me that Rev 14 was two versions of the same story. I have read it hundreds of times and never seen it before. So a big THX for the help what a glorious God we serve!

Blessings,
Seeker

[extravagantchristian]

Seeker I re-read your last post and it seems like you're saying that the during God's wrath, the earth will get all messed up and burned and melted, but not be entirely destroied? Is that right?

And that's what you think 2 peter 3 is describing?

Yes that is correct that's the way I see scripture describing it.

Oh ok. I'm having a hard time seeing 2 peter 3 in that way, because when it says the heavens will pass away, that seems like a more perminate thing to me, as opposed to them being "rolled up" or receiding like a scroll" It also says that the earth will be burnt up, and when something is "burnt up" it's gone, nothing left of it. So that would seem more in line with the actual end of the old heavens and earth to me.

[extravagantchristian]

Hi SueAnn,
Sorry about it being complicated that is what I am desperately trying to fix. It is just so complex with so many interacting scriptures that simplicity continues to elude me here.

I know what you mean, the word is alive and 3 dimensional. It's hard to lay it all out flat on paper.

[Seeker]

Hi Sherree,

But....I still don't see this as the New Heaven and New Earth. Just a habitation for His 1000yr. reign. At the end of this reign, then comes the New Heaven and New Earth with the New Jerusalem coming down. This creation will last forever not for just 1000yrs.

Ok here's what I got on new heaven and earth so far.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

The new heaven/earth is first mentioned after the 1,000 years have ended. But...Isaiah 65 talks about the new heaven and earth.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

This to me is a classic millennial passage but Isaiah seems to link the wolf/lamb to the new heavens and earth.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Isa 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Isa 11:14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
Isa 11:15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

And here he links the wolf/lamb with Jesus destroying enemies of Israel...So Isaiah seems to say that the new heavens and earth are a result of the return of Jesus in wrath since he first links the return of Jesus destroying the enemies of Israel to the wolf/lamb reference and then uses that same wolf/lamb reference in connection with the new heaven and earth. The wolf/lamb reference connects the two as being about the same story therefore we use all the information from both and form our view from there. I don't have a problem with seeing the new heavens and earth as occuring at the beginning of the millennium. It is certain that the old was destroyed upon the arrival of Jesus scripture is fairly clear there. The best case I see for new heavens and earth would be just after Jesus destroys the old. The sun and moon...etc have been extinguished at the end of the last 7 years. Jerusalem has been totally devastated by everything I read about what happens to it. Ezekiel 40 begins a description of a new temple on earth in which the Lord resides.

Eze 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
Eze 43:5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
Eze 43:6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.
Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

These have to be describing the same place, New Jerusalem. God dwells in them both forever. Since we know Eze 38-39 ends at the end of the last 7 years. Eze 40 at the beginning of the millennium would seem to support a new heaven and new earth which have new Jerusalem as part of it. The temple that the AC placed the AOD was destroyed to be replaced by the Eze temple/New Jerusalem. That's what I can see from scripture anyway. I haven't found any scriptures that directly conflict with a pre-millennial timing for new heaven and new earth. There is more I am missing on this I am sure but hey that gives me something to study...lol. Take care.

Peace,
Seeker