Gog & Magog timing

[tharkun]

Just wanted to get people's thoughts and explanations on when they think the Gog/Magog war will happen, from a pre-wrath perspective. (I'm not referring to the 2nd battle at the end of the Millennium, just during the DotL/2nd Coming.)

I have never really studied it in depth and am wondering what y'alls thoughts are. Because the 'invasion' occurs when Israel is seemingly living at peace, it seems that there are only two possibilities:

1) It happens during the 1st half of the 70th week, before the AC is revealed at the AoD, or

2) It happens after the end of the 70th week (once Christ's reign has begun) and is a description of the battle of Armageddon.

These are the only two times that I can see Israel effectively living in safety, under the false safety of the AC, or under the true safety of the returning Messiah.


If it is the 1st option, then wouldn't Gog and the AC have to be different individuals?

On the other hand, if it is the same as battle of Armageddon, this would imply Gog and the AC are the same person.


Your thoughts (and scripture!).

tharkun

(edited to fix typo.)

[slick]

Hello Tharkun,

Certainly a question that perplexes many a studier of GODS word! I am glad to see that you recognize the TWO separate encounters of GOG/MAGOG.

If you study scriptures details on Battles/Invasions that occur during the 70th week a clear picture begins to take place. this picture is of the power struggle that will occur surrounding the people and land of Israel. the Portrait of GOG/MAGOG as seen in Ezekiel 38 seems to indicate an occupation rather than a BATTLE per Se. this can also be seen in Zechariah 14.
Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse found in LUKE 21 shows the city (JERUSALEM) surrounded by armies just prior to the abomination of desolation I believe this to be the initial invasion of GOG which occurs just prior to the midpoint of the 70th week.

A year ago or so I posted a very long two part post that fully lays out the whole GOG/MAGOG scenario fully supported by scriptural references. I will attempt to find that link and share it with you.
GOD-BLESS,

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!

Slick (clarence)

[jgilberAZ]

I tend to lean in this direction ...

Understanding the Battle of Gog and Magog

[The Orange Mailman]

Here's my view.

http://theorangemailman.spaces.live.com ... !701.entry

Ezekiel 38:8-23 is postmillennial being "after many day" when Israel finally dwells in safety.

38:1-7 and all of chapter 39 are associated with Armageddon.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[RRiley]

safely H983

H983 (Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries)
בּטח
beţach
beh'-takh
From H982; properly a place of refuge; abstractly {safety} both the fact (security) and the feeling (trust); often (adverbially with or without preposition) safely: - {assurance} {boldly} (without) care ({-less}) {confidence} {hope} safe ({-ly} {-ty}) {secure} surely.

The people in the twin towers of the World Trade Center on September 10,2001 had a feeling of complete security and trust in their safety. They returned to work the very next day with that same feeling of complete security and trust in their welfare.

Sometime that feeling of safety can be misleading, and what appears to be safe and secure can change, and change very quickly.

What a difference a day makes.

[slick]

Hello Tharkun,

I have found the post on GOG/MAGOG that I had submitted, its lengthy but I trust a helpful read at the least some food for thought!

here are my thoughts on Gog/Magog.
GOD-BLESS,

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!

Clarence

GOG / MAGOG PART ONE

Mentioned in scripture only a select few times, The unlocking of the identity and the events surrounding these two key players during the 70th week shed new light in prophetic understanding.

Our introduction to Magog is found early on in Scripture in Genesis 10 as one of Noah’s Grandsons through the line of Japheth. (Gen. 10:1 & 2). We next meet him in I Chronicles 1:5 where his placement in the Genealogy of Noah is confirmed.

The next character we are going to look at is first seen in Chronicles 5:4, and is recorded as being a son of Joel in the line of Reuben, A descendent of Magog. A not insignificant bit of historical information is recorded in that passage. Where we see Gog and his associates as being a warring people daring and unafraid.

We are reintroduced to these names once again in Ezekiel chapters 38 & 39 and also in Revelation chapter 20 and it is with these passages we are going to focus our study.

Chapters 38 & 39 as cited above deal with the subsequent namesake countries established by these offspring of Noah. As we shall soon see play a very important role in Gods prophetic timeline, Unlocking for us further evidence as to, the entering of Daniels 70th week.

(Ezekiel chapter 38)

Through out my years of study I have encountered an abundance of interpretations and opinions as to the identity of the modern countries and or people groups associated with Gog / Magog Along with the symbolic potential of the individual personages. Some of which I agree and others for which I find cause to debate.

As to the people groups and geographical areas associated, I don’t find any reason to be suspect, and have come to accept the commonly held view that the line of Gog / Magog is most closely associated with modern day Russia and of Germanic peoples in Northern Europe.

Another largely popular view, In fact held & taught by my mentor, The late Robert Van Kampen *, Associates These players with the Beast of Revelation (cf. Daniel) also known as the anti-Christ, it is here that my greatest cause for debate occurs as we shall understand as our study progresses.

EZEKIEL 38:2-3

SON OF MAN, SET YOUR FACE TOWARD GOG OF THE LAND OF MAGOG…AND SAY “THUS SAYS THE LORD GOD, BEHOLD, I AM AGAINST YOU O’GOG.””
Indicating unfavorability to God, none the less used by Him to accomplish his plan and purpose. Look At Verse 4

Ezekiel 38:4

“AND I WILL TURN YOU ABOUT AND PUT HOOKS INTO YOUR JAWS, AND I WILL BRING YOU OUT AND ALL YOUR ARMY…”

His army allies are revealed to us in the next two verses:

Ezekiel 38:5 & 6

“PERSIA (modern day Iran), ETHIOPIA, AND PUT (modern day Libya)… “GOMER, WITH ALL ITS TROOPS, BETH-TOGARMAH….MANY PEOPLE WITH YOU.”


We gain some understanding of the timing of these events in few verses i.e.

VS. 8

“AFTER MANY DAYS YOU WILL BE SUMMONED IN THE LATTER YEARS YOU WILL COME INTO THE LAND THAT IS RESTORED FROM THE SWORD, WHO’S INHABITANTS HAVE BEEN GATHERED FROM MANY NATIONS…?”


From these last few verses we learn the “Who” and the “When” the “What” and “Why” are found in verses 10-17. Here we find a two-fold plan unraveling.

Proverbs 16:9

“THE MIND OF MAN PLANS HIS WAYS, BUT THE LORD DIRECTS HIS STEPS.”

Vs 10 tells us that they will think up and devise a scheme, vs. 11 tells us who are the victims of this evil plot, vs.’ 12 & 13 give us the primary details as to the ‘Why”.

Ezekiel 38:12

“TO CAPTURE SPOIL AND SEIZE PLUNDER…

VS. 13

“…HAVE YOU ASSEMBLED YOUR COMPANY TO SEIZE PLUNDER? TO CARRY AWAY SILVER AND GOLD? TO TAKE AWAY CATTLE AND GOODS? TO CAPTURE GREAT SPOIL?”

The intentions are clearly evident in these passages, the invasion will be to occupy and lay hold of Israel’s vast wealth and resources.

We are told in the next couple of verses that their intentions and plan are superceded by Gods plan, and of His manipulation to accomplish his purpose.

Vs. 16

“…IT WILL COME ABOUT IN THE LAST DAYS THAT I SHALL BRING YOU AGAINST MY LAND, IN ORDER THAT THE NATIONS MAY KNOW ME WHEN I SHALL BE SANTIFIED THROUGH YOU BEFORE THEIR EYES O’GOG.”

(Romans 9:17, Rev 17:16 & 17)

God Often uses evil mankind to accomplish his intent.

The remaining Verses (19-23) gives us the description of the means that God brings this looting invasion to a close.

Lets examine closely now how & when that it accomplished.

Ezekiel 38:18

“AND IT WILL COME ABOUT ON THAT DAY WHEN GOG COMES AGAINST THE LAND OF ISRAEL (specifically Jerusalem)….THAT MY FURY WILL MOUNT UP IN MY ANGER...”

Vs. 19 tells us there will be “ …A GREAT EARTHQUAKE

We see the scope of the effect of that in vs.’ 20 & 21 further consequences are seen in vs. 22 and finally we see in vs. 23 whose sovereignty is in view.

Ezekiel 38:23

“AND I SHALL MAGNIFY MYSELF AND MAKE MYSELF KNOWN IN THE SIGHT OF MANY NATIONS: AND THEY WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD.”

2 Peter 1:20

“BUT KNOW THIS FIRST OF ALL, THAT NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE IS A MATTER OF ONES OWN INTERPRETATION.”

It would be prudent of us now to compare scripture with scripture to see if any other significant details or applications can be applied to the further establishment of gog / magog’s identity.

Lets first examine Zechariah 14 (print) will start in verse’s 1 & 2

“BEHOLD A DAY IS COMING FOR THE LORD WHEN THE SPOIL TAKEN FROM YOU…”
“FOR I WILL GATHEER ALL THE NATIONS AGAINST JERUSALEM….THE HOUSES PLUNDERED.

It would appear obvious that we are talking here of the same people places and events that we looked at in Ezekiel. The parallel continues

Vs. 3 “THE LORD WILL GO FORTH AND FIGHT..”

VS. 5 “…EARTHQUAKE…”

VS 6 “…IT WILL COME ABOUT THAT THERE WILL BE NO LIGHT…”

VS 7 “FOR IT WILL BE A UNIQUE DAY WHICH IS KNOWN TO THE LORD…” CF VS 9

Now let’s compare with Revelation 6:12-17

Vs 12 we see a great earthquake and the heavens go dark

Vs 15 kings and commanders hide a scatter in fear

Vs 17 DAY OF THE LORD IE GODS WRATH begins.

One more comparison should be looked at in order to verify that we are indeed seeing the same timeline in view. Let’s now turn back to Ezekiel 38 and examine vs. 22

“…HAILSTONES FIRE AND BRIMSTONE.”

Turn with me now to Matthew 24: 29 & 30



“BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL FROM THE SKY, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS WILL BE SHAKEN.

VS 30 “AND THEN THE SIGN OF THE SON OF MAN WILL APPEAR IN THE SKY, AND ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH WILL MOURN….

(Jesus is seen in exultation here!)

vs. 31 “AND HE WILL SEND FORTH HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT TRUMPET AND THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT…”

Turn now to Revelation where the final comparison of the events should establish the veracity of this study. Rev 8:5 & 7, Rev 6 deals with the seals and events associated with them out of the sixth seal comes the rapture, sealing of the 144,000, and the onset of the day of the Lord. We find that opening judgments begin with angels blowing trumpets lets look at the first angel.

REVELATION 8:5

“AND THE ANGEL TOOK THE CENSER; AND HE FILLED IT WITH THE FIRE OF THE ALTER AND THREW IT TO THE EARTH; AND THERE FOLLOWED PEALS OF THUNDER AND SOUNDS AND FLASHES OF LIGHTNING AND AN EARTHQUAKE.”

VS 7

“AND THE FIRST SOUNDED, AND THERE CAME HAIL AND FIRE, MIXED WITH BLOOD…”

Now that I have, leaving little doubt, established a common timeframe associated with this campaign of Gog / Magog. I want to explore one more passage that if I am correct will change the way this text has been commonly viewed.

Luke’s account of the Olivet Discourse has been a point of contention even among students of eschatology who hold primarily the same view. The texts in all three accounts begin with the temple question and move in what is generally regarded as a futuristic prophecy concerning the “Last Days”.
(Matthew 24:1-3, Mark 13:1-4, Luke 21:5-7)
It is highly speculated among prophecy students that Matthew and Marks account by far and large ignore or give very little satisfaction in the answering of the temple question by the disciples. And that the texts of their renditions generally skip to the futuristic aspects of Jesus’ words. Also generally regarded is that the Lukan text gives more detail as to the sacking of the temple and hence Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Here I want to detour for a little while and discuss some literary tools utilized in the writing of prophetic scripture as well as elsewhere.

The first tool that I want to discuss can be seen used in many eschatological texts rather past tense or futuristic in scope. That being the, “NEAR/FAR” application. Given the strict rules and penalties on a prophet to be 100% accurate. We often see that the veracity of a prophets “far Future” predictions were many times verified by a “near” fulfillment, thus establishing the prophets credibility to be believed in the “far reaching” aspect of his prediction (I.E. the virgin birth, end times, etc..).

The second literary tool we can see applied in some cases is what I call “Compounded Revelation” this tool is seen used in Many different texts, writings, and passages through out the Bible, starting In the Creation account of Genesis Running through the poetic books of Psalms & Proverbs, and through the historical accounts of Kings, Chronicles etc. the basic concept of this method is that details are given more than once within the same text or books but continue to reveal more and more about the peoples, places, or events first described.

It should be noted that Care should be applied when attempting to force these tools upon a text or passage. Instead careful examination of the text and wording should be made in order to understand which if any of these tools are being used. In many cases the Context, grammatics, or the language itself will provide the necessary clues.

We are going to now look at the Olivet Discourse and see if we can apply either or both of these tools. A special note need be made here; the Gospels are not in their original chronology. The actual order is as follows, MARK, MATTHEW, LUKE, Finally John the Olivet Discourse Only Being found in the first three Gospels. Understanding that, it is quite simple to see the compounding of revelation as recorded in the varying accounts. We see the least amount of specific details given in Mark and increased through Matthew and finally fully expanded in Luke’s rendition.

We can arrive in another sense to the same conclusion by simply viewing the character and status of the writers themselves. Mark was a young man the son of a Jewess and held no special position in society, Matthew was a Levite, a tax-gatherer (government official) and educated in Jewish (biblical law), Luke was a Doctor and had a keen sense of detail. Seemingly then another determination of the compounding principle established.

The allowance of the “Near/Far” application is somewhat more obscure and difficult to establish. There would be clear indication of this tool in the passage found in all three accounts of Jesus pointing to Daniel in reference to The Abomination of Desolation which was first introduced as having been executed by Antiochus Epiphanes. Jesus of Course is pointing directly to a future fulfillment of that passage. From there it may be possible to deduce that other applications may be allowed. Daniels “Compounding Revelations” would further seem to allow for these tools to be applied.

Now that we have at the least shown a possibility for these tools to be in effect lets look closely again at the Luke version of the Olivet Discourse. Here we will look at a much disputed text and see if our literary tools might shed some light on their understanding.
Luke 21:20

“BUT WHEN YOU SEE JERUSALEM SURROUNDED BY ARMIES, THEN RECOGNIZE THAT HER DESOLATION IS AT HAND..”

VS 21 flee to the mountains (Zech 14:5)

Vs. 24 Jerusalem tramples

Vs 25 cosmic Disturbance

Vs. 26 Men afraid

Vs. 27 son of man appearing, wrath begins

Vs 28 Rescue

If then the sacking of the Temple by Titus is in view in Verse 20 I would suggest that the Near/ Far application can be transposed to the Gog / Magog invasion in the 70th week!

By way of Wrap Up on this study we can see by the careful comparison of the passages relate to the same people and events and that a fairly clear timeline has been established. We can determine that the initial invasion probably happens just prior to the mid point of the 70th week and continues through to sometime within the second half after the Abomination of Desolation takes place and all the way up to the Rapture and beginning of the Day of the Lord.

[rizen]

I have never really studied it in depth and am wondering what y'alls thoughts are. Because the 'invasion' occurs when Israel is seemingly living at peace, it seems that there are only two possibilities:

1) It happens during the 1st half of the 70th week, before the AC is revealed at the AoD

If it is the 1st option, then wouldn't Gog and the AC have to be different individuals?

The assumption that Dispensationalists make is that Gog and AC are two different individuals because "rosh" (an adjective that describes the prince) is a noun that somehow describes Russia. What they do is piece together "rosh" (Eze. 38:2) with "tsaphown yerekah" (north parts) and Meschech ("drawing out") and assume it's talking about the prince of Moscow or something.

However Ezekiel 38:17 tells us that this individual is someone who the "prophets of old" have spoken about. In Eze. 38:16, Gog is called O Gog.

Gog = mountain

Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. (Jer. 51:25)

In Jer. 51:31 this individual is referred to as the king of Babylon.

Gog is also called the O covering cherub in Eze. 28:16:

By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

In the proverb against the king of Babylon found in Isa. 14, we are told that the king of Babylon ("O Lucifer") will fall as a result of trying to ascend to the sides of the north ("yerekah tsaphown").

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High (Isa. 14:12-14)

This, of course, is also an allusion to Lucifer.

The sides of the north is a reference to heaven itself. Although we literally know the eschatological king of Babylon will come from a northern land against "my people Israel", it's his attempt to exalt himself above everything that ultimately leads to his great fall. In Dan. 11:41 we are told that Edom, Moab, and the king of Ammon escape the clutches of the Antichrist. Just because they escape his clutches doesn't mean that the Antichrist doesn't try to seize them. In theory, this might very well be the reason for his great fall.

Meshech = drawing out

In Eze. 38:4 we are told that God puts "hooks" into Gog's jaws.

Canst thou draw out ("mashak") leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? (Job 41:1)

Typologically, we see that when Jesus came "like a thief" to the den of thieves on Palm Sunday in Joh. 2:15, he cast out the moneychangers with a "scourge of small cords". This is picture of Jesus drawing out leviathan.

Peter (the rock) also has hand in this as we see in Matt. 17:24-27.

Tubal = thou shall be brought

O Gog (O destroying mountain) of Meshech (drawn out) with hooks and Tubal (shall be brought) out of the sea against the mountains of Israel (God prevails).

Ezekiel 38:1-23 sounds alot like what happened to the king of Egypt in Eze. 29:2-6. This is when God was glorified among the Egyptians. In Eze. 38:23 we read that this is when God will be glorified among many nations, probably even Israel itself.

As far as the "Israel dwelling safely" theory, you have to completely ignore Revelation 12 and Isa. 28:15-20 in order to sustain the theory that it's the Antichrist's "peace covenant" that allows Israel to dwell safely. First off, God call this covenant a covenant with "death and hell". The idea that this covenant could bring the type of peace that would allow them to dwell safely is absurd. God tells us that from the moment they enter into this covenant it will be like a bed that is too short and narrow for a man to stretch himself out upon (Isa. 28:20). If you cross-reference this passage against Rev. 2:22, you see that this covenant is like an act of adultery.

The bottom line is that the only remnant we know of "dwelling safely" at any point from the time covenant takes place until the Day of the Lord is the remnant that flees into the wilderness at the AoD. God tells us in Rev. 12:6 that He has prepared the place for them for 1260 days. This doesn't mean that they won't face any opposition or scrutiny, but it does mean if they remain where they are until the Jesus arrives, no physical harm can come to them (Matt. 24:26).

From a prewrath perspective this becomes somewhat easy to detail. In Revelation 12:15-16 we see where the Antichrist (via Satan) sends an army against the wilderness remnant. The attempt fails, causing the Antichrist to turn against the other Christians (presumably the 144,000 firstfruits) via his wrath (deception). This draws on Herod's failed attempt at killing Jesus and then turning his wrath against the male children 2 and under in Matt. 2:13-17 (Matt. 2:16 parallels Rev. 12:17). It also draws on Epiphanes failed attempt to sack Egypt after Popilius interceded on Rome's behalf. After being turned away from Egypy, Epiphanes set his sights on sacking Israel (Dan. 11:29-35). Although Armageddon will lead to the Antichrist's ultimate demise, it's really his failed attack on the wilderness remnant that breaks his power. It's Jesus that breaks the AC's power.

Epiphanes wanted Egypt but failed.
Herod wanted Jesus but failed.
AC wants wilderness remant but fails.