Why were the Thessalonians so upset.

[plalgum]

Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians was to reassure them that they had not missed the day of the Lord and the Rapture.They were being persecuted so they assumed that they were in the Tribulation,so why were they so upset that they sent a runner to find Paul and ask him why?If Paul had taught a post trib view,they would have immediately seen through the letter,and said well so what! the Lords coming back in seven years then.
If Paul had taught a pre Wrath view,they would have been wondering to themselves "Is this really God at his angriest"?
I think that Paul had taught them a pre Trib view,and when the false letter arrived saying that the gathering up had come and gone, and they,now going through persecution,had missed it,must have caused them great distress,as it was designed to do.

[mark s]

Hi Plalgum,

That's the sense this passage makes to me also.

Love in Christ,
mark

[YoungLion]

Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians was to reassure them that they had not missed the day of the Lord and the Rapture.They were being persecuted so they assumed that they were in the Tribulation,so why were they so upset that they sent a runner to find Paul and ask him why?If Paul had taught a post trib view,they would have immediately seen through the letter,and said well so what! the Lords coming back in seven years then.
If Paul had taught a pre Wrath view,they would have been wondering to themselves "Is this really God at his angriest"?
I think that Paul had taught them a pre Trib view,and when the false letter arrived saying that the gathering up had come and gone, and they,now going through persecution,had missed it,must have caused them great distress,as it was designed to do.

You sum it up beautifully in just a few sentences, my friend! I don't have a white-knuckle grip on any particular timing scenario, but I lean pre-trib for many reasons... including the points you make so eloquently. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst!

[mrgravyard49]

More truth of a Pre_trib Rapture..

[pegmo]

I agree with all of you as well!

[christian_m0mmy]

[watching]

Sounds logical to me too.

Come to think of it, would an expectant mother be upset if she had just been told that she has gone into labor if she already understood that she would have to go through it in order to give birth?

I'm not saying that this proves the pre-trib theory, but it is something to think about.

edit: Maybe I should have said illogical.

[watching]

Just wanted to add another thought.

Were they supposed to be relieved to find out that they would have to face the anti-Christ first?

[Keeping Alert]

Sounds logical to me too.

Come to think of it, would an expectant mother be upset if she had just been told that she has gone into labor if she already understood that she would have to go through it in order to give birth?

I'm not saying that this proves the pre-trib theory, but it is something to think about.

Hey, that makes sense!

[plalgum]

Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his son from heaven,whom he raised from the dead,even Jesus which delivered us FROM the wrath to come.
The word FROM in this context is APO in Greek, Paul's use of this word is very specific because it means we are removed from the place, the time,and anything to do with the wrath of God.Mark S, i am sure will bear me out that even though there are other words in Greek that mean FROM,APO in this use is a dimensional word.
Hope you catch this post Mark S,looking to see what you think.

[mark s]

Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his son from heaven,whom he raised from the dead,even Jesus which delivered us FROM the wrath to come.
The word FROM in this context is APO in Greek, Paul's use of this word is very specific because it means we are removed from the place, the time,and anything to do with the wrath of God.Mark S, i am sure will bear me out that even though there are other words in Greek that mean FROM,APO in this use is a dimensional word.
Hope you catch this post Mark S,looking to see what you think.

Hi Plalgum,

Yes, I agree with you that as preposition indicating separation, APO places us positionally away from the coming wrath.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[plalgum]

Hello Mark,
Thankyou for your reply,Jesus keeps us from (Apo) the wrath to come,because we are in this world but not of this world.

[YoungLion]

Yeah... APO.... Not to start a fight, but some say that this is what is meant by the 'falling away' that must come first. Some believe that our singular interpretation of APOstasy is not all it can mean. To classical Greek speakers, the word may have also meant removal or separation. Some pointed to the predicted 'falling away' as code for the rapture... not necessarily the falling away from the Faith that we interpret from that word... though I'm sure that will happen too. Maybe this is what you guys are alluding to?

[mark s]

Yeah... APO.... Not to start a fight, but some say that this is what is meant by the 'falling away' that must come first. Some believe that our singular interpretation of APOstasy is not all it can mean. To classical Greek speakers, the word may have also meant removal or separation. Some pointed to the predicted 'falling away' as code for the rapture... not necessarily the falling away from the Faith that we interpret from that word... though I'm sure that will happen too. Maybe this is what you guys are alluding to?

H YoungLion,

Apostasia, from apo and stao, literally means "standing away from", departure. The verb form of the word is used that way many times in the NT. As a noun, there is a strong pattern of usage in the LXX for "rebellion". Its only used one other time in the NT, in Acts, of "departure from/rebellion against Moses". In this instance, it works either way, as what the departure is from is plainly stated.

Aristophanes, in his play, "The Birds" (c. 400 BC), spoke of the men's apostasia, flying away to the city of the birds, in the sky. Aristophanes' plays were being performed throughout NT times, and it would not be unlike Paul to make such a cultural reference, reaching back to the Classical meaning of the word.

Since Paul says, "the apostasia", if we understand this to be a particular one, and, as he goes on to say, "don't you remember how I taught you these things", if we look in Paul's prior teachings to the Thessalonian church that we have a record of, looking for either a rebellion or departure, we find only the departure of the rapture.

There is also the possibility that this will be what reveals the lawless one. This is called "the explicative use of kai. "Kai" is a Greek conjunction, generally translated "and", but it can also be translated "even", showing that what follows is explanatory, "the rebellion, even the revealing", as perhaps the "mass exodus" of the nominal church to follow the AC might be what reveals him.

This has come up before, with some, shall I say, "spirited" debates, but, we're in pre-trib only

Love in Christ,
Mark

[watching]

If you ask me, this is getting out of hand. The word "apo" in Greek is simply a preposition denoting separation as Mark s. has already stated. There is nothing magical about it. It is about as common and has as much depth of meaning and versatility as the word "from" does in English and is used pretty much in the same way. To put it bluntly, I would think it has about as much secret meaning as the word "it" does.

Mark s., I had already typed this before I saw your post, just as I was about to hit submit, but if I have said anything wrong about the word "apo", please correct me.

[mark s]

If you ask me, this is getting out of hand. The word "apo" in Greek is simply a preposition denoting separation as Mark s. has already stated. There is nothing magical about it. It is about as common and has as much depth of meaning and versatility as the word "from" does in English and is used pretty much in the same way. To put it bluntly, I would think it has about as much secret meaning as the word "it" does.

Mark s., I had already typed this before I saw your post, just as I was about to hit submit, but if I have said anything wrong about the word "apo", please correct me.

Hi Watching,

You are correct, "apo" is simply a preposition denoting the position or motion of separation. And I agree that it is used very much the same as we use "from".

There are certain exceptions to this, such as in John's writings, as he several times used apo interchangeably with ek, out of.

Paul would have used it very much in keeping with Classical Greek.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[YoungLion]

Thanks for outlining this in a scholarly way. The other thing that's interesting is if Paul meant apostasy as a falling away from the Faith, that would be strange in that there is always some kind of apostasy afoot. Every church has its problems at one point or other. Using "apostasy" as something that will happen someday seems odd. I wonder if we could find other examples of words in scripture that are meant benignly despite multiple meanings, but create confusion because they hold only their negative connotation in modern usage. It's interesting to think that Paul might just as easily have said that the AC will not be revealed until the 'rapture' or 'harpazo' happens first. Boy, that would have made things clearer!

[watching]

I've been thinking about the word apostasia and this is the best I could come up with on the matter. And this is just off the top of my head. So, maybe Mark s. could comment on this since he has the book smarts.

The word apostasi in Greek (I'm writing this phonetically) means distance. I think the concept when you consider the root words (apo- and "stasi" meaning stance/position as was explained in above post) is that the two objects are stationary. Because the verb form of the word distance in Greek, as in to distance yourself for example, is apomakrino which comes from the roots apo- and "makri" which means long and is where we get the prefix macro- from. So the concept is you're making the distance longer.

The Greek word for departure is anahorisi which comes from the prefix ana- and "horizo" which means to part or separate just like in English departure comes from the prefix de- and part.

Now, the Greek word apostasia, in the modern sense anyway, means defection. In other words to go from one side to the other--namely the enemy.

What this means in terms of 2Thessalonians2, I'm not exactly sure. Maybe it's the church making a complete 180 degree turn. That can only be my guess. Of course, unless it did in fact have another meaning in ancient times.

[watching]

I just had a light bulb moment and I realized that I have the book by Aristophanes called Ornithes in Greek in a children's book version in Greek and I just read it.

It's about two friends, Pistheteros and Evelpidis, who decide they don't like life on earth anymore so they seek out someone named Tireas who was a man and became a bird and they tell him they have a brilliant idea. So Tireas calls the other birds, who initially began to attack the two friends because the birds consider the humans to be enemies since they pluck their feathers and roast them, but Tireas tells them that they are friends and to listen to their idea.

So Pistheteros tells them the idea, which was to build a land that is between the earth, where the humans live, and the heavens, where the gods live, and that this land would be their land. So from now on, whenever a god wants to come down to earth they would have to pay them a tax. And whenever people send aromas from their roasts to please the gods, the smells would stop there.

The birds liked the idea, so they started to build the land, but when it was finished they got a visit from one of the gods who told them that the gods were becoming upset because they were no longer getting the aroma from the foods and they were starting to starve to death. After that, the birds got a visit from another god, Promethius, who was in disguise and happened to be on their side, and informed them that the gods were planning to send a representative to try and make peace. He advised them, however, not to agree unless the gods were willing to give Pistheteros a beautiful woman named Exousia, who held the lightning bolts and had all the power, to be his wife.

So the birdmen set the table and were about to eat, when the representatives showed up, who happened to be Poseidon, Hercules, and Tribalos. When Poseidon heard the request, he became angry and said, "You're not asking for much, are you?" So the three representative decided to have a vote between them and Hercules and Tribalos said yes because they were so hungry and Poseidon said no, but they decided to go along with the request even though it was two against one since it was a democracy.

Then at the end of the story it explains how when the people on earth found out about the whole story, they became enamored with birds which explains why there are so many sayings in Greek which pertain to birds.

edit: name change correction also added detail

[plalgum]

Question to Mark S.
Hi Mark,are there any other words in greek for "From",I beleive that they have four words for love?

[watching]

Hi Mark s.,

Re: apostasia

The verb form of the word is used that way many times in the NT

What verb form are you talking about?

[mark s]

Hi Watching,

This is from Thayer's Lexicon:

G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647

G647
ἀποστάσιον
apostasion
Thayer Definition:
1) divorce, repudiation
2) a bill of divorce
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of G868

G868
ἀφίστημι
aphistēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
1a) to excite to revolt
2) to stand off, to stand aloof
2a) to go away, to depart from anyone
2b) to desert, withdraw from one
2c) to fall away, become faithless
2d) to shun, flee from
2e) to cease to vex one
2f) to withdraw one’s self from, to fall away
2g) to keep one’s self from, absent one’s self from
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G2476

G575
ἀπό
apo
Thayer Definition:
1) of separation
1a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place, i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
1b) of separation of a part from the whole
1b1) where of a whole some part is taken
1c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
1d) of a state of separation, that is of distance
1d1) physical, of distance of place
1d2) temporal, of distance of time
2) of origin
2a) of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken
2b) of origin of a cause
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a primary particle

G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
Thayer Definition:
1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
1a) to bid to stand by, [set up]
1a1) in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin
1a2) to place
1b) to make firm, fix establish
1b1) to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
1b2) to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
1b3) to establish a thing, cause it to stand
1b3a) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything
1c) to set or place in a balance
1c1) to weigh: money to one (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed)
2) to stand
2a) to stand by or near
2a1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm
2a1a) of the foundation of a building
2b) to stand
2b1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared
2b2) to be of a steadfast mind
2b3) of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a prolonged form of a primary stao (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses)

So then, the root words are Apo, separation, and stao, or stasis, stand, so, at its most literal level, "away from standing", or, departure. This of course is not the only thing we use to determine the meanings of words.

Aphistemi is the verb form, apostasia is the noun form.

Aphistemi is used in the following verses . . .

Luke 2:37, of a widow who departed not from the temple. - Spatial departure
Luke 4:13, the devil departed from Jesus for a season. - Spatial departure
Luke 8:13, in a time of temptation fall away. - spiritual departure
Luke 13:27, depart from me you workers of iniquity. - spatial departure
Acts 5:37, Judas of Galilee drew away many after him - perhaps any of these
Acts 5:38, Refrain from these men - spatial or relational departure
Acts 12:10, the angel departing from him - spatial departure
Acts 15:38, departed from them and did not go with them - spatial or other departure
Acts 19:9, departed from them - spatial or other departure
Acts 22:29 they departed from him - spatial departure
2 Cor 12:8 that it might depart from me - spatial departure
1 Timothy 4:1 depart from the faith - spiritual departure
1 Timothy 6:5 withdraw yourself - spatial or relational departure
2 Timothy 2:19 depart from iniquity - spiritual departure
Hebrews 3:12 departing from the living God - spiritual departure

. . . and refers to various kinds of departures, depending upon the context.

The only other place in the NT that apostasia appears is Act 21:21, "And they were informed about you, that you teach apostasia from Moses, telling all the Jews throughout the nations not to circumcise their children, nor to walk in the customs."

Here, the departure is clearly defined as a departure from Moses. Reading this as departure or rebellion both yield the same result.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[watching]

Hi Mark s.,

Thanks for your reply, but I still don't see how any of this can prove that the word apostasia in 2Thessalonians2:3
meant something other than defection.

The word apostasion that you gave as an example, which I was not familiar with, is apparently no longer used in the Greek language since it has been replaced by another word for divorce. But after thinking about it, I can see how a divorce could be considered a defection from marriage. Also, the word apostasion happens to be another noun, so I don't see how it could be a verb tense of apostasia.

The other word that you gave, aphistemi, happens to still be in use today and is a very common word comparable to the word "leave" in English except it apparently has been changed from the classical, aphistemi, to the modern form, aphino. Much like the word sitteth in classical English has been changed to sat in modern English.

The point I'm trying to make is just because a word has a similar etymology does not necessarily make it the same word in my opinion.

[mark s]

Hi watching,

Apostasia and apostasion are the same word in different forms, the former being feminine, the latter neuter (genderless).

BTW, one thing to keep in mind is that Koine Greek, from the New Testament, is not the same language as modern Greek. Koine Greek is considered a 'dead language', and while there are many similarities between the two languages, sometimes even the same spelling has a completely different meaning.

English is like that, "let", for instance, used to mean "prevent", now it means to "allow".

We should avoid defining Koine Greek according to modern Greek. We should also avoid defining koine Greek by it's English derivatives.

Apostasia and apostasion are the noun form of aphistemi, the verb.

This would be like our "run", "I'm going for a run", using it as a noun, compared to "I'm going to run", using it as a verb. Greek shows these differences with different spellings.

In this same way, aphistemi is "to depart", the verb, while apostasia is "departure", the noun.

None of these things prove that Paul was using it here of either rebellion or departure. "Departure" is a valid and literal translation of the word, the question is, departure from what? Depart from the faith? Departure from the church? Departure from sound doctrine? Departure from the earth? Paul doesn't give us that part, he just says, "remember, I told you these things before."

Love in Christ,
Mark

[watching]

Hi Mark s.

Apostasia and apostasion are the same word in different forms, the formal being feminine, the latter neuter (genderless).

I have to disagree with you on that. "Defection" and "divorce" are not male or female counterparts or female neuter counterparts for that matter. These are two entirely different words but which happen to be derived from the same root words and concept.

BTW, one thing to keep in mind is that Koine Greek, from the New Testament, is not the same language as modern Greek. Koine Greek is considered a 'dead language', and while there are many similarities between the two languages, sometimes even the same spelling has a completely different meaning.

English is like that, "let", for instance, used to mean "prevent", now it means to "allow".

We should avoid defining Koine Greek according to modern Greek. We should also avoid defining koine Greek by it's English derivatives.

I have to disagree with you on that point as well. Koine Greek is not as dead as say Latin is. I realize that many of the words have changed as well as some of their meanings just like many words have changed in English since the KJV was written. But I don't think that means that we should not read the KJV at all and not try to gain understanding by what we know of English today as long as we are aware that we need to make certain adjustments.

Apostasia and apostasion are the noun form of aphistemi, the verb.

I don't know if there is a direct relationship to these words other than the fact that they are made up of the same root words and the first two happen to be nouns and the latter happens to be a verb. But the point that I was trying to make in regards to aphistemi is that although the word has changed in the way it's pronounced, it obviously has the same meaning today based on the scripture passages you provided and in terms of how it's used today. And I was just pointing out the fact that this is an extremely common word used very much in the same way as the word "leave" is used in English.

In terms of the word apostasia, as you have already said, there was only one other use in the Bible and it does not prove that the word apostasia has ever meant departure in the sense of when your plane takes off. There is another word for departure in that sense which is anachorisi. Is there any way to find out if that word was ever used in the Bible?

I just realized, that's probably a silly question since there were no planes back then.

[mark s]

Hi watching,

I would suggest checking a reputable Koine Greek Lexicon for yourself. Perhaps Kittel if you don't care for Thayer.

This is simply some basic information on these words and their forms.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Resurrection Torchlight]

personally I think there's a lot more to be said about the departure as in "rapture of the church" rather than what the meaning of the word "Apostasy" is- whether is means one or the other, there's more in the passage that points to the rapture.

RT

[mark s]

personally I think there's a lot more to be said about the departure as in "rapture of the church" rather than what the meaning of the word "Apostasy" is- whether is means one or the other, there's more in the passage that points to the rapture.

RT

I agree, RT, this is a very small point, and not at all conclusive, in my opinion. I have no difficulty even stipulating that it refers to rebellion, still, this is a strongly pre-trib Scripture in my opinion.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[watching]

I don't mean to go against the pre-trib mode in this section, because, for one thing, I don't really have a particular "trib" view. The way I feel about it is, I just don't know when the Lord is going to return. So, therefore, in my case, I am not going to resign myself to the notion that it will not be for another seven years, or 3 1/2 years, or at any other particular time. I think the Lord could return today if He wanted to and somehow all of the scriptures would be satisfied. I don't know if He will or not. All I know is that He said to always be ready.

Matthew 25:13 (King James Version)

13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mark 13:32-37 (King James Version)

32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

But having said that, I think I made a few assumptions in my initial post in this thread. One is, how do we know the Thessalonians were upset or had even received a letter?

2 Thessalonians 2 (King James Version)

2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be ****** who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

My understanding after having reread it, is that Paul was warning them in case that should ever happen. The other assumption I made is that I thought the term, "the day of Christ is at hand" meant that the day of Christ was near. But now I realize that it probably meant the day of Christ is upon us. And I don't think it was talking about the wrath because in the beginning it specifically said that this was concerning

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

So, obviously, it does not make sense for them to be upset.

So after some consideration, I think Paul was basically saying, in my own words, this: If anyone tells you that Christ is here, do not believe it. Do not give it a second thought or get alarmed in any way, whether it's by word of mouth or even by a letter that is supposedly from us, do not fall for it.....Again, those were my own words and not what is written in scripture. So, obviously, my interpretation could be wrong. But if my understanding is correct, I think this may be along the lines of what Jesus said:

Matthew 24:4-5 (King James Version)

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24-27 (King James Version)

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I personally think these warnings were given to us for a reason, because, since God knows the future, why would he warn us about something that was not going to happen?

So, if that may be the case, the way I would translate those warnings in today's terms is this. If anyone tells you that Christ has come, do not believe them. Whether it's by word of mouth, or by a press release in the media, or on the internet. Even if it's by a trusted religious figure. Do not be stirred in any way. Because when the Lord returns, you will not need any one to inform you of it.

Now as far as when the rapture happens, I don't have a clue. And I don't know if 2Thessalonians2 is any indication of it or not. But the best I can make out of verses 3-4 is that it is an incomplete sentence.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (Young's Literal Translation)

3let not any one deceive you in any manner, because -- if the falling away may not come first, and the man of sin be revealed -- the son of the destruction,

4who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called God or worshipped, so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God -- [the day doth not come].

"That day shall not come" was added in. Whether that was done on purpose or not, I don't know. But I do believe it was written exactly the way God wanted it to be.

[watching]

Hi Mark s.,

I hate to but I just wanted to make one more comment because I don't want to mislead any body. Anyway, I just wanted to point out that I concede, from your examples, that I now realize that there were various forms and combinations of "apo" and "stao" which were used to express certain actions such as "to withdraw" or "to distance" in addition to "to depart" (and all of their different tenses) some of which have now been replaced by other words. And you did prove that with the examples you cited. And technically, based on the root forms and their meanings, the word "apostasia" could have had more than one meaning which is not uncommon, but the only problem I have is that I haven't seen any uses in writing from the ancient texts that would prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, but that doesn't dismiss the possibility.

Sorry for dwelling on this. I originally just wanted to make a fleeting comment, but I just feel like I need to clarify my position, not because I think anyone cares, or because I want to bore everyone with my opinions, but because I know God cares what I say.

# Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

And on that note, I want to apologize if I have said anything else that might have offended in any of my posts.

[mark s]

. . . there were various forms and combinations of "apo" and "stao" which were used to express certain actions such as "to withdraw" or "to distance" in addition to "to depart" (and all of their different tenses) some of which have now been replaced by other words. And you did prove that with the examples you cited. And technically, based on the root forms and their meanings, the word "apostasia" could have had more than one meaning which is not uncommon, but the only problem I have is that I haven't seen any uses in writing from the ancient texts that would prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, but that doesn't dismiss the possibility.

Hi watching,

That's pretty much the conclusion that I've come to.

Love in Christ,
Mark

PS - no offense taken in this corner!