Do all believers of all time receive the same things?

[Mark F]

There have been some disscussions I have read lately that affirm there are many who dissagree about this.
Do all saints, believers, etc., from all time-past, present, and future, all receive and partake in the exact same things as all the others?

I say no, I believe that there is a distiction between believers.

This does have an impact on how we understand and apply prophecy.

[plalgum]

New International Version
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
New American Standard Bible
"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he

If our Lord says that there is a least,then i assume that there is a hierarchy.

[Spreading Salt]

The Bible teaches that there are different rewards. The parable of the talents is a good example. Some individuals are given more opportunities to serve God (more talents). Some are given less. All are expected to work for Him with what He has given them. They will be rewarded accordingly.

Matt 25:15-23

15 And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability: and immediately he took his journey.

16 And he that had received the five talents, went his way, and traded with the same, and gained other five.

17 And in like manner he that had received the two, gained other two.

18 But he that had received the one, going his way digged into the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 But after a long time the lord of those servants came, and reckoned with them.

20 And he that had received the five talents coming, brought other five talents, saying: Lord, thou didst deliver to me five talents, behold I have gained other five over and above.

21 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant, because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 And he also that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, thou deliveredst two talents to me: behold I have gained other two.

23 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

2 Cor 5:6-10
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

All our works will be tested by fire. Our works will be shown in their true light and some will burn up. There are believer's who make it to Heaven as individuals, barely surviving through the flames with just the shirt on their back. I'll have to find that scripture for you all and post it later.

The Potter has made us all uniquely different with good works prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10. Yes, there will be many believer's in Heaven. Praise God! Some are just skating through the doors before they close, with nothing to show for their lives here. Some are charging headlong and have storehouses overflowing in the Heavenly realm due to the good works they have completed for the Lord.

Some, like aborted lives and mentally challenged individuals (which includes myself - depending on the day ) have never physically/mentally developed enough in this life to achieve intentional works for God. I'm sure He has something special planned just for them as well.

I used to joke about being the trash collector in Heaven. I wouldn't mind having to take out anyone's trash in Heaven, I would just be happy to be there! As I have grown in my understanding and relationship with God, I long for more than just being there. I want to be with Him and serve Him and have more relationship with Him. Believing in His existence and that He died for me is simply not sufficient for me anymore.

This is where the "works" debates usually heats up in discussion. No, our "works" don't earn our way to Heaven. Yes, our "works" fill our Heavenly storehouses where moth does not destroy and robbers cannot steal.

I believe that God has different plans for different believers not only in this life, but in eternity as well. Some will be His Bride. Some will serve Him day and night in His temple. Some will live in the New Jerusalem. Some will live out in the New Earth. I hope there aren't any trash collectors!

Regardless, we will all be satisfied with our positions/locations/duties etc. We will no longer mourn or covet each others things. We will lack nothing. Our desires will be perfectly met and will align with the plans He has for us. We will be with Our Savior forever. I even think that those who don't know Him well but make it to Heaven, will have all of eternity to get to know Him and fall in love with Him as well. Come Lord, come.

[mark s]

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

(12) Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
(13) each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
(14) If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
(15) If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

[Abiding in His Word]

...... Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us....Rom 12:6

[Spreading Salt]

Thanks Mark!

[extravagantchristian]

I think it's safe to say that not not all believers always receive the same things... we know that some receive different gifts, but if we are asking the question of, "are all believers part of the church?" I would have to say that the answer is yes, because no one comes to the Father except by Jesus Christ.

Being part of the Body that will be married to the Son is not something we receive, but rather who we are. It is our identity.

[jgilberAZ]

Emphasis mine ...

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19)

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
(Heb 4:1-16)

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
(Heb 11:1-40)

I don't think we can easily put the pre-cross saints in a different box than the post-cross saints. We all are/were counted righteous because of our faith in God's promise ... that He would forgive our sins based on the shedding of blood. The OT saints looked forward to the once-for-all atoning sacrifice. The NT saints look back to the once-for-all atoning sacrifice. Either way, it is our faith in God that results in righteousness. Whether you look forward or backwards is not relevant.

[jgilberAZ]

And, I might add, this applies to the pre-70th week and intra-70th week saints as well.

[extravagantchristian]

The Bible says that all of humanity will stand before Jesus at the Great White Throne Judgment to be judged by their works. Those who's name is not written in the Lamb's book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire. So you see, we must all go through the Lamb to be saved. Even the OT saints, and even the GT saints.

Romans 14:10
But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Daniel 7:9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

Psalm 69:28
Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,And not be written with the righteous.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Jesus)

I wonder if the nations who live on the New Earth, but not in the city could be those who died before they reached an age of accountability, such as aborted babies and so on.

Also, Jesus died once for all, not just for those born from the time of His death to the beginning of the 70th week.

Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

[plalgum]

We dont go to the white throne judgment.

[extravagantchristian]

plagum, we will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and so will the lost. No where in the Bible does it say that that will happen on 2 separate occasions. There will only be one court date.

We will ALL stand before Jesus to be judged for our works. They are all bring written in books. Even every Idle word.

[extravagantchristian]

4There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

So if they GT saints don't get the HS, and aren't part of the body, then I guess they wouldn't be able to read the NT because it wouldn't apply to them. I guess they wouldn't be able to be born again either....

Wait...

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Looks like they wouldn't even be able to go to heaven since they wouldn't be able to be born again.

[mark s]

The Bible says that all of humanity will stand before Jesus at the Great White Throne Judgment to be judged by their works.

Hi EC,

Actually, it says "I saw the dead . . ." The redeemed are never referred to as "the dead", to the best of my knowledge.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[extravagantchristian]

The Bible says that all of humanity will stand before Jesus at the Great White Throne Judgment to be judged by their works.

Hi EC,

Actually, it says "I saw the dead . . ." The redeemed are never referred to as "the dead", to the best of my knowledge.

Love in Christ,
Mark

They aren't dead at the time when John sees them because they are standing, so that just means that they were once dead at one point.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

[mark s]

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Hi EC,

Thanks for the reminder! I seem to remember forgetting that one before, also!

Love in Christ,
Mark

[extravagantchristian]

[mark s]

I looked back at Revelation 20, the Great White Throne judgment. John calls these "the dead" several times.

It occurs to me, if we understand this as "all who had previously died" instead of "all those 'dead in sins'", even so, this cannot include those who were changed from mortal to immortal apart from dying, therefore, this cannot be all humanity.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[plalgum]

plagum, we will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and so will the lost. No where in the Bible does it say that that will happen on 2 separate occasions. There will only be one court date.

We will ALL stand before Jesus to be judged for our works. They are all bring written in books. Even every Idle word.

EC are you still banging on about fire and brimstone,and true repentance?


Question: "What does the Bible say about when God will judge us?"

Answer: There are two separate judgments. Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-12). Every believer will give an account of himself, and the Lord will judge the decisions he made—including those concerning issues of conscience. This judgment does not determine salvation, which is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), but rather is the time when believers must give an account of their lives in service to Christ. Our position in Christ is the “foundation” spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. That which we build upon the foundation can be the “gold, silver, and precious stones” of good works in Christ’s name, obedience and fruitfulness—dedicated spiritual service to glorify God and build the church. Or what we build on the foundation may be the “wood, hay and stubble” of worthless, frivolous, shallow activity with no spiritual value. The Judgment Seat of Christ will reveal this.

The gold, silver and precious stones in the lives of believers will survive God’s refining fire (v. 13), and believers will be rewarded based on those good works—how faithfully we served Christ (1 Corinthians 9:4-27), how well we obeyed the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20), how victorious we were over sin (Romans 6:1-4), how well we controlled our tongues (James 3:1-9), etc. We will have to give an account for our actions, whether they were truly indicative of our position in Christ. The fire of God’s judgment will completely burn up the “wood, hay and stubble” of the words we spoke and things we did which had no eternal value. “So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God” (Romans 14:12 ).

The second judgment is that of unbelievers who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). This judgment does not determine salvation, either. Everyone at the Great White Throne is an unbeliever who has rejected Christ in life and is therefore already doomed to the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12 says that unbelievers will be “judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Those who have rejected Christ as Lord and Savior will be judged based on their works alone, and because the Bible tells us that “by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified” (Galatians 2:16), they will be condemned. No amount of good works and the keeping of God’s laws can be sufficient to atone for sin. All their thoughts, words and actions will be judged against God’s perfect standard and found wanting. There will be no reward for them, only eternal condemnation and punishment.

[Mark F]

The Bible teaches that there are different rewards. The parable of the talents is a good example. Some individuals are given more opportunities to serve God (more talents). Some are given less. All are expected to work for Him with what He has given them. They will be rewarded accordingly.

Matt 25:15-23

15 And to one he gave five talents, and to another two, and to another one, to every one according to his proper ability: and immediately he took his journey.

16 And he that had received the five talents, went his way, and traded with the same, and gained other five.

17 And in like manner he that had received the two, gained other two.

18 But he that had received the one, going his way digged into the earth, and hid his lord's money.

19 But after a long time the lord of those servants came, and reckoned with them.

20 And he that had received the five talents coming, brought other five talents, saying: Lord, thou didst deliver to me five talents, behold I have gained other five over and above.

21 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant, because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

22 And he also that had received the two talents came and said: Lord, thou deliveredst two talents to me: behold I have gained other two.

23 His lord said to him: Well done, good and faithful servant: because thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will place thee over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

2 Cor 5:6-10
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

All our works will be tested by fire. Our works will be shown in their true light and some will burn up. There are believer's who make it to Heaven as individuals, barely surviving through the flames with just the shirt on their back. I'll have to find that scripture for you all and post it later.

The Potter has made us all uniquely different with good works prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10. Yes, there will be many believer's in Heaven. Praise God! Some are just skating through the doors before they close, with nothing to show for their lives here. Some are charging headlong and have storehouses overflowing in the Heavenly realm due to the good works they have completed for the Lord.

Some, like aborted lives and mentally challenged individuals (which includes myself - depending on the day ) have never physically/mentally developed enough in this life to achieve intentional works for God. I'm sure He has something special planned just for them as well.

I used to joke about being the trash collector in Heaven. I wouldn't mind having to take out anyone's trash in Heaven, I would just be happy to be there! As I have grown in my understanding and relationship with God, I long for more than just being there. I want to be with Him and serve Him and have more relationship with Him. Believing in His existence and that He died for me is simply not sufficient for me anymore.

This is where the "works" debates usually heats up in discussion. No, our "works" don't earn our way to Heaven. Yes, our "works" fill our Heavenly storehouses where moth does not destroy and robbers cannot steal.

I believe that God has different plans for different believers not only in this life, but in eternity as well. Some will be His Bride. Some will serve Him day and night in His temple. Some will live in the New Jerusalem. Some will live out in the New Earth. I hope there aren't any trash collectors!

Regardless, we will all be satisfied with our positions/locations/duties etc. We will no longer mourn or covet each others things. We will lack nothing. Our desires will be perfectly met and will align with the plans He has for us. We will be with Our Savior forever. I even think that those who don't know Him well but make it to Heaven, will have all of eternity to get to know Him and fall in love with Him as well. Come Lord, come.

I agree that based upon our works, rewards are different. I would think that would be applied to all Saints across all time.

[extravagantchristian]

plagum, we will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and so will the lost. No where in the Bible does it say that that will happen on 2 separate occasions. There will only be one court date.

We will ALL stand before Jesus to be judged for our works. They are all bring written in books. Even every Idle word.

EC are you still banging on about fire and brimstone,and true repentance?

hey don't get mad at me Jesus is the one who said "Fire and Brimstone" And no I'm not talking about repentance right now. Sheesh... the word judgement sure makes some people squirm.

[extravagantchristian]

Answer: There are two separate judgments. Believers are judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-12). Every believer will give an account of himself, and the Lord will judge the decisions he made—including those concerning issues of conscience. This judgment does not determine salvation, which is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), but rather is the time when believers must give an account of their lives in service to Christ. Our position in Christ is the “foundation” spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

So if the judgment seat of Christ is only for those who are "in christ" (born again, church) then that would mean that the OT saints and the GT saints won't be there right?

So then which judgement would they go to? The GWTJ? No not according to you because that is for unbelievers only so, do they not get judged?

The second judgment is that of unbelievers who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15). This judgment does not determine salvation, either. Everyone at the Great White Throne is an unbeliever who has rejected Christ in life and is therefore already doomed to the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12 says that unbelievers will be “judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.” Those who have rejected Christ as Lord and Savior will be judged based on their works alone, and because the Bible tells us that “by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified” (Galatians 2:16), they will be condemned. No amount of good works and the keeping of God’s laws can be sufficient to atone for sin. All their thoughts, words and actions will be judged against God’s perfect standard and found wanting. There will be no reward for them, only eternal condemnation and punishment.

[Mark F]

jgilberaz,

I don't think we can easily put the pre-cross saints in a different box than the post-cross saints. We all are/were counted righteous because of our faith in God's promise ... that He would forgive our sins based on the shedding of blood. The OT saints looked forward to the once-for-all atoning sacrifice. The NT saints look back to the once-for-all atoning sacrifice. Either way, it is our faith in God that results in righteousness. Whether you look forward or backwards is not relevant.

With this I basically agree, but in what you quote from Hebrews and highlighted as well seems to say something different.

Hebrews 11:13,
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

This seems to say that there is indeed a difference with them, compared to us.

Hebrews 8:6
"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises."

If there wasn't as difference, how can he say something is better?

[AndCanItBe]

I looked back at Revelation 20, the Great White Throne judgment. John calls these "the dead" several times.

It occurs to me, if we understand this as "all who had previously died" instead of "all those 'dead in sins'", even so, this cannot include those who were changed from mortal to immortal apart from dying, therefore, this cannot be all humanity.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Wouldn't verses 4-6 also mean that the great white throne judgement can't include all humanity?

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

6(R)Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

It seems to me that no matter how you take that, to mean all Christians, or to mean only the tribulation saints and martyrs, that there is definitely another, first resurrection before the GWTJ. And if you take it to mean only the tribulation saints and martyrs, then that would seem to be more support for the idea of rewards to me.

[plalgum]

GWT comes after the millenium.

[extravagantchristian]

9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

So which Judgement do you think this is? (anyone who wants to answer)

[plalgum]

Revelation 20:6 (New International Version)
6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

[mark s]

There are dramatic differences between OT faithful and NT faithful during our earthly lives, as well as afterward.

NT believers become "regenerated" during their earthly lives, OT believers did not.

NT believers enjoy continual fellowship with God, OT believers enjoyed fellowship with God following the sacrifices only.

NT believers' sins are removed upon coming to faith, OT believers' sins were temporarily covered.

NT believers partake of the spiritual gifts, OT believers did not.

NT believers live on earth as members of the body of Christ, OT believers did not.

OT believers did not immediately enter heaven when they died, instead, waited in "Abraham's Bosom", the place of comfort in the heart of the earth. NT believers are already alive in the heavenly realm, and continue to dwell there after physical death.

The time came for OT believer to be regenerated, sins removed, able to enter heaven, only after Jesus died and resurrected. However, OT believers will never have been members of the body of Christ on earth while dwelling in mortal flesh. They will never have, while living in mortal flesh, known "it is no long I that live, but Christ in me".

Love in Christ,
Mark

[extravagantchristian]

We keep changing subjects

Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

These verses seem to suggest that the GT saints who are martyred will have part in the 1st resurrection (the rapture) doesn't it?

[plalgum]

Does seem that way,Very clever.

[mark s]

Unless you understand the "first resurrection" as "the resurrection unto life", and the "second resurrection" the "resurrection unto death". Jesus was the firstfruits of the first resurrection. Its more than "just" the rapture.

[Mark F]

There are dramatic differences between OT faithful and NT faithful during our earthly lives, as well as afterward.

NT believers become "regenerated" during their earthly lives, OT believers did not.

NT believers enjoy continual fellowship with God, OT believers enjoyed fellowship with God following the sacrifices only.

NT believers' sins are removed upon coming to faith, OT believers' sins were temporarily covered.

NT believers partake of the spiritual gifts, OT believers did not.

NT believers live on earth as members of the body of Christ, OT believers did not.

OT believers did not immediately enter heaven when they died, instead, waited in "Abraham's Bosom", the place of comfort in the heart of the earth. NT believers are already alive in the heavenly realm, and continue to dwell there after physical death.

The time came for OT believer to be regenerated, sins removed, able to enter heaven, only after Jesus died and resurrected. However, OT believers will never have been members of the body of Christ on earth while dwelling in mortal flesh. They will never have, while living in mortal flesh, known "it is no long I that live, but Christ in me".

Love in Christ,
Mark

That is more along the line I was thinking, and not that the judgement question that has come up isn't intersting too!

[mark s]

9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

So which Judgement do you think this is? (anyone who wants to answer)

Let's look at the rest of the vision:

Daniel 7:11-14
(11) "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.
(12) As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
(13) "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
(14) Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

And its interpretation . . .

Daniel 7:26-27
(26) "But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
(27) Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'

It looks to me that this court is judging the beast, and giving its kingdom to the saints, that the judgment of this court is that God's enemies will not possess the kingdom anymore, but God's people will.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

There are dramatic differences between OT faithful and NT faithful during our earthly lives, as well as afterward.

NT believers become "regenerated" during their earthly lives, OT believers did not.

NT believers enjoy continual fellowship with God, OT believers enjoyed fellowship with God following the sacrifices only.

NT believers' sins are removed upon coming to faith, OT believers' sins were temporarily covered.

NT believers partake of the spiritual gifts, OT believers did not.

NT believers live on earth as members of the body of Christ, OT believers did not.

OT believers did not immediately enter heaven when they died, instead, waited in "Abraham's Bosom", the place of comfort in the heart of the earth. NT believers are already alive in the heavenly realm, and continue to dwell there after physical death.

The time came for OT believer to be regenerated, sins removed, able to enter heaven, only after Jesus died and resurrected. However, OT believers will never have been members of the body of Christ on earth while dwelling in mortal flesh. They will never have, while living in mortal flesh, known "it is no long I that live, but Christ in me".

Love in Christ,
Mark

That is more along the line I was thinking, and not that the judgement question that has come up isn't intersting too!

Hi Mark,

Considering such a dramatic difference between the lives of the OT saints and the NT saints, might there be a difference in how we are judged and rewarded?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Mark F]

I cannot help but think that we have more to fear as we have been given so much!

Luke 12:48
"But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."

I just read this this AM, sobering in it's context.

[Mark F]

BTW-- thank God He has washed away my sins!!

[extravagantchristian]

Mark S I think this is the first resurrection...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Plain and simple, it is a one time event when the dead in Christ and those of us who are alive and remain (which won't be many) will be raised incorruptible. Followed by the marriage to the Lamb.

[mark s]

I cannot help but think that we have more to fear as we have been given so much!

Luke 12:48
"But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."

I just read this this AM, sobering in it's context.

That's my thinking too! We've been given much more than they received!

[extravagantchristian]

I cannot help but think that we have more to fear as we have been given so much!

Luke 12:48
"But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."

I just read this this AM, sobering in it's context.

Yes that verse is very sobering!

So is this one:

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Makes me wonder what we are going to receive for the bad???

And this one:

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

How many of us have done that?? Uh none.

I sold my minivan yesterday but I didn't give the cash to the poor.

[mark s]

Mark S I think this is the first resurrection...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Plain and simple, it is a one time event when the dead in Christ and those of us who are alive and remain (which won't be many) will be raised incorruptible. Followed by the marriage to the Lamb.

Hi EC,

I have two questions for you . . .

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
(20) But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
(21) For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
(23) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
(24) Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Firstly . . . What is Christ the "firstfruits" of here?

Secondly . . . Does not this . . .

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."

come before this . . .

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

. . . ?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Makes me wonder what we are going to receive for the bad???

I wonder the exact same thing!

And this one:

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

How many of us have done that?? Uh none.

I sold my minivan yesterday but I didn't give the cash to the poor.

Jesus gave this command to a certain man. He didn't tell everyone to do this.

To the one who makes possessions their god, this might be a smart move.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[extravagantchristian]

Mark S I think this is the first resurrection...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Plain and simple, it is a one time event when the dead in Christ and those of us who are alive and remain (which won't be many) will be raised incorruptible. Followed by the marriage to the Lamb.

Hi EC,

I have two questions for you . . .

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
(20) But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
(21) For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
(23) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
(24) Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

Firstly . . . What is Christ the "firstfruits" of here?

Secondly . . . Does not this . . .

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."

come before this . . .

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

. . . ?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[AndCanItBe]

I cannot help but think that we have more to fear as we have been given so much!

Luke 12:48
"But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more."

I just read this this AM, sobering in it's context.

We certainly have been given much!

Hebrews 10

11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which (X)can never take away sins;

12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,
16"THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,"
He then says,
17"AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

If Christ is our permanent sacrifice for sins, and God has promised to remember our sins no longer, then, for those who are in Christ, there will be no payment on our own part for our sins, because Christ took our payment on Himself so God no longer needs any offering. Christ did that already, and for us to also pay for those sins seems to be redundant as well as making Christ's work at the Cross insufficient. I do think we may possibly be rewarded based for righteous acts that we've done.

[extravagantchristian]

Anditcanbe, but it says we will receive something for the bad we have done in the body.

[extravagantchristian]

9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

So which Judgement do you think this is? (anyone who wants to answer)

Let's look at the rest of the vision:

Daniel 7:11-14
(11) "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.
(12) As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
(13) "I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
(14) Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

And its interpretation . . .

Daniel 7:26-27
(26) "But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
(27) Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.'

It looks to me that this court is judging the beast, and giving its kingdom to the saints, that the judgment of this court is that God's enemies will not possess the kingdom anymore, but God's people will.

Love in Christ,
Mark

But it says "the books were opened"

Then...

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened.

[mark s]

Let's look at the context, and what the Bible says happens in each place.

Is every time that books are opened always the same time?

[AndCanItBe]

Anditcanbe, but it says we will receive something for the bad we have done in the body.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'll study it some more.

[Mark F]

2 Corinthians 5:10
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

This should be considered more carefully, this does not refer to punishment.

"that each one may receive the things done in the body" does not have a smooth flow here when read with "according to what he has done". Are the things done in the body referring to THE body of which every born again believer is a member?

The Scripture is crystal clear that I will never suffer for sin because it has all been atoned for in Christ at Calvary, so the only thing this can be is rewards for what was well done, and lack of reward for what we should have done, I would assume there will be a recognition that we could have done better, or right, and have regrets. There are just too many Scriptures that tell us our debt is paid in full for this to be some punishment for wrongs committed.

I really believe this is reward (good) and lack of reward (or bad) for what we have done after being saved.

[Abiding in His Word]

I agree.

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2Cor. 5:21

[jgilberAZ]

Emphasis mine ..

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
(1Pe 1:9-11)

Seems pretty clear to me ... the prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them.

So, all this applies to the Old Testament saints (and us, of course).

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
(Rom 8:9)

They have the Spirit of Christ.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
(Rom 8:14)

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
(Gal 4:6)

The Old Testament saints (and us, of course) are sons of God.

This makes them and us one body:

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(1Co 12:13)

Remember ...

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
(1Pe 1:9-11)

The Old Testament saints and the New Testament saints (and by extension, the 70th-week saints) are all part of one body ... we all receive the same Spirit.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(Eph 4:4)

.