13 Ton Temple Corner Stone to Be Presented to the People

by **AndCanItBe** on Sat May 23, 2009 1:20 pm

ACIB,

no that wasn't what I was implying...sorry if it may have appeared so. What I am implying is that there aren't two, three or four covenants in place, for everyone. Just one.

Thanks for the clarification. :grin:

by **WallDoctor** on Sat May 23, 2009 1:42 pm

I mostly agree with AndCanItBe.

(I think)

Any benefits that Israel is to receive based on the Mosaic Covenant will only be received if they accept the New Covenant first. I really don't see any unbelieving Jews around during the Millenium kingdom and I don't think any of them will get there without first accepting Christ. So the Old Covenant land promises are all contingent upon their repentance and acceptance of Christ.

This whole discussion was sparked when I only tried to state that the Jews who do not accept Christ right now need to repent and we really need to divide two separate issues. One issue is that the Temple is close to being built which is fantastic from a Eschatological standpoint but from a salvation standpoint, it is a demonstration of the darkness still in the heart of those who have rejected Christ. It seems that many here are more excited about the Temple then they are about lost souls. Or else they think that the Jews will be saved because they follow Judaism but last time I read the Bible, it said Christ was the only way of salvation.

by **Salty Skipper** on Sat May 23, 2009 2:05 pm

I get excited about temple news, not because the temple is needed because we know that it isn't. However, it would be a fulfillment of prophecy and would mean that we are just that much closer to seeing Jesus! :banana:

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sat May 23, 2009 2:30 pm

It seems that many here are more excited about the Temple then they are about lost souls. Or else they think that the Jews will be saved because they follow Judaism but last time I read the Bible, it said Christ was the only way of salvation.

I don't think that's the case, WallDoctor. I think the excitement about the temple is related more to seeing a fulfillment of prophecy and the soon return of the Lord. I doubt anyone here doesn't grieve over lost souls. And you are correct about Jesus being the only way of salvation.

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sat May 23, 2009 2:58 pm

Salty Skipper wrote:I get excited about temple news, not because the temple is needed because we know that it isn't. However, it would be a fulfillment of prophecy and would mean that we are just that much closer to seeing Jesus!

I am interested on what prophecy it is a fulfillment of. I too have agreed with this assumption in the past, but at this point in time, I just don't see one. Can't you tell my views have drastically changed :eek:

Could you or anyone else please provide me the scripture, so I can go over it...again?

With all of us...I will leave out the debate tone...and be...well let's say...inquisitive :grin:

by **Adamantine** on Sat May 23, 2009 3:05 pm

It seems to me we still arte unsure of the site for the new Temple.
The Temple Mount Faithful who drag this rock around claim on nthere web site that they believe it is in the Dome Of the Rock.
Hence noone can build as yet.
Others argue quite well that the location is north at the well of the spirits. ( Used to be my chpoice)
Now I do not know because I think it entirely possible the site is the Holy of Holies without a rebuilt Temple.
The abomination sits in the holy place where it ought not.

by **kazbo** on Sat May 23, 2009 4:30 pm

it is a demonstration of the darkness still in the heart of those who have rejected Christ. It seems that many here are more excited about the Temple then they are about lost souls. Or else they think that the Jews will be saved because they follow Judaism but last time I read the Bible, it said Christ was the only way of salvation.

I don't think the Jews will be saved because of Judaism.

Which is better, for a man to be completely apathetic about spiritual things or for a man to desire God? Which man is more likely to find God - and Jesus?

I get excited when I see the Jews desire a temple because I believe it shows they desire God's presence with them and are opening their hearts to him - and if they open their hearts to him, they are that much more likely to receive what he shows them of himself and the truth of the gospel.

by **kazbo** on Sat May 23, 2009 4:38 pm

IamtheWalrus wrote:Yes we are. Are you understanding it? It appears not so from that question.

Ouch.

Permit me to sling a marshmallow at you for that one.

:sling:

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sat May 23, 2009 4:45 pm

kazbo wrote:
IamtheWalrus wrote:Yes we are. Are you understanding it? It appears not so from that question.

Ouch.

Permit me to sling a marshmallow at youn for that one.

Guess I should've said ouch first, so sorry, but you slung first. I was just defending myself.
Why ask a question such as what you asked...did you think you would have not gotten a response from me?

by **1whowaits** on Sat May 23, 2009 7:04 pm

I think we all agree that the only way the Jewish people can be saved is by coming to Christ, the rebuilding of the Temple or adherence to the Old Covenant does not bring them eternal life, only Jesus can do that.

The broader question is what does the returning of Israel to the land and the rebuilding of the Temple really mean or what is its significance?

There is more than 1 covenant in the OT as ACIB states. The Mosaic or Sinaitic covenant is the one we most often think of, but there were Noahic, Abrahamic and Davidic covenants. The Sinaitic and part of the Abrahamic covenants were conditional, God would be their God if they were devoted to Him.

But part of the Abrahamic covenant was unconditional, the giving of the land to Abraham and his descendants was seen as an unconditional land grant, God made an unconditinal promise that the land would alawys be Israel's. Israel could be disobedient and be expelled from the land as punishment, but the land would always be theirs and they would eventually be returned to it.

And that covenant does appear to still be in effect, God has been returning Israel to her land for the past 60 years, and Israel has been thriving, God is blessing Israel. And this is done without Israel repenting or turning to Christ, the land is still theirs in God's eyes, He made the promise to Abraham and that promise still stands, it is unconditional.

And it does appear also that God does wish the temple to be rebuilt. Again Zech 6 indicates that Jesus will be involved in the rebuilding of the Temple, and Zech 14 indicates that Jesus will rule from Jerusalem during the millenium. Isa 2 indicates that Jesus will judge and rule from the Temple in Jerusalem during the millenium- 'the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains...many peoples will come and say 'Come let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways...the law will go out from Zion..He will judge between the nations...They will beat their swords into plowshares...'

The temple is not an abomination and God clearly has a purpose for it, Jesus will rule from it during the millenium.

And God may have a purpose for the rebuilding of the Temple prior to Jesus' return. Ezek 40-48 does describe a plan for a temple that has never been built, and God states that when Israel is sorry for what she has done, the plans for this temple are to be given to Israel, presumably to build it.

So the relevant question is, as God has given the land to Israel unconditionally and He is in the process of returning Israel to her land, and as it appears that He does wish for the Temple to be rebuilt when Israel is in the land, what are the consequences for those who come between God and His desire for Israel?

Zech 1 describes God's anger against the nations that are dividing up Israel and Jerusalem, and He expresses His desire for His house to be rebuilt. The nations or nation groups that divide Israel and Jerusalem are pictured as 4 horns, and against these 4 horns God's sends 4 'craftsmen', possibly the 4 horsemen described earlier in the chapter, to 'terrify and throw down these horns of the nations who lifted up their horns against the land of Judah to scatter its people'.

Also Jer 50-51 describes the destruction of Babylon and appears to have soem future fulfillment. Part of the reason for Babylon's destruction is becasue she scattered (divided) Israel (Israel is a scattered flock) and because of the temple (the Lord our God has taken vengeance, vengeance for his temple).

It would appear that the nations that divide Israel and Jerusalem, that prevent the Lord's Temple from being rebuilt, those who come between the Lord and His desire for Israel, will bring on themselves 'terror' and 'vengeance', which appears to be the position the US is headed for.

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sat May 23, 2009 7:16 pm

The Abrahamic covenant was a promise not to Israel, but to the world through Jesus Christ:

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Thy seed....which is Jesus...born from Israel..who is Thy

The same goes for here:

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

The blessing is unto the world, including the Gentiles.

There is no covenant other than in Christ, as scripture states it.
The covenant was new to the Gentiles or "many", and all of the OT covenants "confirmed" in Christ to the Jews.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

by **WallDoctor** on Sat May 23, 2009 7:20 pm

kazbo wrote:Which is better, for a man to be completely apathetic about spiritual things or for a man to desire God? Which man is more likely to find God - and Jesus?

I see your point and you may be right. The one caveat I have is that I don't see any difference between Judaism and any other false religion. I think that those who practice Judaism have the same odds of finding Christ as the muslim, the buddhist, the wiccan and the morman. I do believe that anyone who honestly desires to find God will find God. That honest desire itself comes from God and God will bring circumstances about that will bring that person to Christ. The fact that there are so many false religions I think demonstrates that at the center of their being, they really aren't honest about wanting to find God on his terms but only want to find a god which fits with their terms.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sat May 23, 2009 7:22 pm

The temple is not an abomination and God clearly has a purpose for it, Jesus will rule from it during the millenium.

My understanding is that the Millennial temple is built by Jesus Himself and that's the one described in Ezekiel. He will rule and reign from that temple for 1,000 yrs. The "Tribulation" temple is the one that will be built in Israel.

"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Zec 6:12-13

by **1whowaits** on Sat May 23, 2009 7:40 pm

And it may be that the returning of Israel to the land and the rebuilding of the temple is part of the process God uses to return Israel to Himself, and for Israel to accept Jesus as Messiah and King. And this process appears to occur during the 70th week as Dan 9 lists putting and end to sin, bringing in everlasting righteousness and anointing the most holy for Israel and Jerusalem, which so far have not been fulfilled in the preceeding 69 weeks.

At the end of the 70th week Israel does accept Jesus as Messiah and King, when He returns at armageddon, according to Zech 12. And prior to that time Israel does rebuild the temple, a literal temple in Jerusalem is described in Rev 11. And Israel is clearly in the land prior to the midpoint of the week, as Jesus does advise leaving Israel at the AOD in Matt 24, and Rev 12 does described Israel being taken into the wilderness for at least most of the latter half of the 70th week.

As the temple is clearly rebuilt and Israel is in the land during the 70th week, apparently this is part of God's plan in returning Israel to Himself by the end of the 70th week.

And there is also the possibility that Gog-Magog occurs early in the week, which could result in God returning all of Israel to the land and God blessing Israel during the first half of the 70th week.

Which could result in a sceanrio in which Israel is blessed by God early in the week, prior to coming to Christ, while christians in the gentile nations that are overthrown experience suffering and want. And Rev 12 appears to indicate that while Israel is protected in the wilderness, those who 'hold to the testimony of Jesus', christians, are being attacked by Satan and the AC.

I believe the appropriate example in this case could be the parable of the 'prodigal' son. Israel is the 'prodigal', while christians are the 'elder brother'. The Father has compassion when He sees the prodical son coming a long way off, while the elder brother is still in the fields working. The prodigal has the fatted calf killed for him and the Father rejoices, while the elder brother works in the fields.

And the Father tells the elder brother that 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours', 'I am with you always', the kingdom is yours, the eternal kingdom, the eternal inheritance.

The Father's perspecitve at this time may be that He sees that the prodigal son, Israel, our brother, is ready to begin his return, the son who was dead is coming alive again, the one who was lost will be found.

But how will we, the elder brother, react when God blesses Israel, the one who rebelled, while we are still in the fields, working?

by **WallDoctor** on Sat May 23, 2009 7:41 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
The temple is not an abomination and God clearly has a purpose for it, Jesus will rule from it during the millenium.

My understanding is that the Millennial temple is built by Jesus Himself and that's the one described in Ezekiel. He will rule and reign from that temple for 1,000 yrs. The "Tribulation" temple is the one that will be built in Israel.

This is what I thought but since I wasn't completely familiar with the Ezekiel passage, I wasn't about to put my neck out on the chopping block. Done that enough already for one week. But this again would be a demonstration the the "Tribulation" temple is only a landmark on the map to Christs return and not that much different then the Mark of the Beast being another landmark.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sat May 23, 2009 7:49 pm

WallDoctor wrote:This is what I thought but since I wasn't completely familiar with the Ezekiel passage, I wasn't about to put my neck out on the chopping block. Done that enough already for one week. But this again would be a demonstration the the "Tribulation" temple is only a landmark on the map to Christs return and not that much different then the Mark of the Beast being another landmark.

You may be interested in reading this:

http://www.templemount.org/ezektmp.html

by **1whowaits** on Sat May 23, 2009 7:52 pm

Abiding, actually the temple in Ezek appears to have both pre-millenial and millenial aspects to it. Ezek 45:22 describes of the 'prince', which would appear to be Jesus if this were just during the millenium, as having to provide sin offerings- 'the prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land.'

The 'prince' would appear to be the ruler of Israel, who would need to offer sin offerings for himself, which Jesus would not do. The 'prince' would appear to be a reference to someone prior to the millenium, as sin offerings are referred to ( i don't think there would be sin offerings during the millenium when Jesus reigns, although there could be fellowship offerings and worship offerings)

It would appear more likely that after Gog-Magog Israel does build the temple described in scripture after Gog-Magog, at least partially, which is later taken over by the AC, and likely damaged or destroyed at armageddon, and then rebuilt completely during the millenium. (Ezek 47 describes the water coming out of the Temple which appears to be a millenial event in Joel 3- 'a fountain will flow out of the Lord's house..')

by **WallDoctor** on Sat May 23, 2009 7:52 pm

1whowaits wrote:The Father's perspecitve at this time may be that He sees that the prodigal son, Israel, our brother, is ready to begin his return, the son who was dead is coming alive again, the one who was lost will be found.

But how will we, the elder brother, react when God blesses Israel, the one who rebelled, while we are still in the fields, working?

I like the analogy but the problem with it is that the elder brother rejected his prodigal brother AFTER he had returned. While in your analogy you are asking how we will treat the Prodigal brother BEFORE he has returned. There is no question that when any Jew (or anyone else for that matter) comes to Christ, even on their dying bed, we should rejoice. You are asking us to rejoice because perhaps our brother is still enjoying the sinful pleasures of this world, or perhaps is working in hunger in the pig sty, or MAYBE he has come to the point where he is about to take that first step back to his fathers house. That is only for God to know though. Our job as believers who can not know the hearts of men is to tell them to repent and turn to Christ now based upon what we see in their lives now. We don't rejoice for what they MIGHT do, but we rejoice for what they ARE doing. If they are confessing Christ now we Rejoice. Otherwise Not.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sat May 23, 2009 8:02 pm

1whowaits wrote:Abiding, actually the temple in Ezek appears to have both pre-millenial and millenial aspects to it. Ezek 45:22 describes of the 'prince', which would appear to be Jesus if this were just during the millenium, as having to provide sin offerings- 'the prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land.'

The 'prince' would appear to be the ruler of Israel, who would need to offer sin offerings for himself, which Jesus would not do. The 'prince' would appear to be a reference to someone prior to the millenium, as sin offerings are referred to ( i don't think there would be sin offerings during the millenium when Jesus reigns, although there could be fellowship offerings and worship offerings)

Here's just a thought for consideration from Barnes Notes on the Bible regarding this passage in Ezekiel:

Eze 45:18-25 -
This order of certain solemn services does not follow exactly the order of Moses, of Solomon, or of Ezra. The deviation can scarcely have been accidental, and furnishes a fresh indication that the whole vision is symbolic, representative of the times when, after the oblation of the one Sacrifice, reconciliation and sanctification were effected for man through the presence of God dwelling in the midst of the people.

As I mentioned to WallDoctor, this may be of interest regarding the 3rd and 4th temples:

http://www.templemount.org/ezektmp.html

by **1whowaits** on Sat May 23, 2009 8:16 pm

WallDr, no, my point is the reality that while we suffer through the 70th week, God may bless Israel. And it appears that God protects Israel in the wilderness while we face the AC and Satan head on.

The perspective i believe some christians could have during the 70th week is that how can God bless Israel, who has not accepted His Son, while we who have accepted Christ are suffering greatly? That is similar, imo, the perspective of the elder brother that Jesus appears to describe in Luke 15.

But God's perspective could be much different. He has the foreknowledge of who will accept Him and who will not, and He knows that the entire nation of Israel, the 1/3 remnant who survives the 70th week (Zech 13), will accept Christ, the prodigal son will return.

I am not saying that we should not witness to the Jewish people, on the contrary, we should do everything we can to bring them to Christ becasue we do not know who will survive to the end of the 70th week, we do not know who the 1/3 remnant are ( likely some of those who are carrying around the temple cornerstone are in their number).

But i am saying that it is likely that God is about to bless Israel, while we will likely experience great difficulty, and we should attempt to have the proper perspective. The returning of Israel to the land, the move to rebuild the temple, and the efforts of the gentile nations to divide Israel and Jerusalem would appear to indicate that something may soon happen, something that could begin the return of Israel to the Lord that culminates in her acceptance of Christ, at the end of the 70th week.

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sat May 23, 2009 8:25 pm

This temple is not one built by hands, the sooner all of you unerstand this, the easier it will be to understand.

by **1whowaits** on Sat May 23, 2009 8:31 pm

Walrus, the temple described in Ezek and Rev 11 are clearly literal, physical temples built by hands. I don't see how your allegorical theories make sense when one looks at these detailed instructions, but as ususal, we will have to agree to disagree.

by **1whowaits** on Sat May 23, 2009 8:39 pm

Abiding, thanks for pointing out that site, that is interesting. I noted the size of the outer court, it is quite large, perhaps large enough to accomodate the Dome of the Rock- 'But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles.' Rev 11, 'This is the law of the temple; all the surronding area on top of the mountain will be most holy. Such is the law of the temple.' Ezek 43.

It is not clear why the millenial temple would need a law to ensure that the top of the temple mount was kept holy, but it would make sense if the Ezek temple were built prior to the millenium when the Gentiles had the outer court (the mount will not be kept holy).

by **kazbo** on Sat May 23, 2009 8:53 pm

IamtheWalrus wrote:
kazbo wrote:
IamtheWalrus wrote:Yes we are. Are you understanding it? It appears not so from that question.

Ouch.

Permit me to sling a marshmallow at youn for that one.

Guess I should've said ouch first, so sorry, but you slung first. I was just defending myself.
Why ask a question such as what you asked...did you think you would have not gotten a response from me?

If you thought that my asking that question was an attempt to attack you, I am most sorry. The idea never crossed my mind. I was just honestly flabbergasted, and expressed it - innocently, I thought. My bad.

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sat May 23, 2009 8:56 pm

1ww, neither of them are literal temples, that is a building made by hands, but literal in that they are representation of the literal church and the saints therein, the sacrifice Jesus had made (this is highly imbedded into Ezekiel's), but until you can step out of the box and look into it, you will never be able to make sense of the prophecies that seem to bewilder you time and time again as I see it. It seems you spend more time trying to disprove it with lack of evidence to support the theory, than you or anyone else for that matter do so in attempting to understand it.

by **1whowaits** on Sun May 24, 2009 12:23 pm

Walrus, so the temple plan in Ezek with very specific measurements is describing the saints and not a literal temple? I see the walls of the temple are several hundred cubits, man, those are some mighty big saints. And water flows from the temple, does that indicate that the saints have a bladder problem? And God says that if the Israelis are sorry they can have the plans for the temple- does that mean the Israelis have the plans to build saints? would that be a genetic blueprint or some type of spiritual construction plan? lol

A little bit of logic applied to your view that everything is allegorical proves the illogical nature and humorous aspects of your view. You crack me up! Hey, thanks dude!

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sun May 24, 2009 12:51 pm

1WW, laugh all you want my dear brother, but if you think Christ or God for that matter allow animal sacrifices again, in place of Himself as the FINAL sacrifice, then I am sorry, your view upon this scripture will continue to be disillusioned. The temple is a type/shadow of the temple in Christ, with plenty of symbolism throughout and within it.
One day, you will see......

Why don't we start a thread in the debate section, and I will show you, verse by verse from chapter 40-48.

by **1whowaits** on Sun May 24, 2009 1:09 pm

Walrus, actually there do appear to be animal sacrifices during the millenium, according ot Zech 14. But there would not be a need for sin offerings as Jesus has made that act null and void. But Fellowship and worship offerings are not prohibited in scripture, and appear to take place during the 1,000 years.

And you think we should debate whether the description of the temple in Ezek is a literal building or a spiritual description of the saints? I think we could make that quite humorous, there are alot of square rooms in the temple, i guess saints are called 'squares' at times. And it does appear that there will be the burning of offerings in the temple, does that mean the burning in my stomach is something more than i thought it was? -lol, i am just kidding you.

by **Wickus** on Sun May 24, 2009 1:34 pm

IamtheWalrus wrote:1WW, laugh all you want my dear brother, but if you think Christ or God for that matter allow animal sacrifices again, in place of Himself as the FINAL sacrifice, then I am sorry, your view upon this scripture will continue to be disillusioned. The temple is a type/shadow of the temple in Christ, with plenty of symbolism throughout and within it.
One day, you will see......

Why don't we start a thread in the debate section, and I will show you, verse by verse from chapter 40-48.

I grew up in a home were my dad was a Jehovas Witness and they have an allegorical view on Scripture. All the plain text he used to turn around and give some spiritual meaning to it. The worst was when my dad told me that Jesus resurrection was not physically, but spiritual. From that day on I decided to take God's Word literately.

Walrus, by no means am I trying to say that you are a JW. I am just making this point to show the mistake in taking the literal meaning from the Word. If God prophesied that there will be a 3rd temple, it does not mean that he approves in sacrifice of any kind. He is just telling us what will happen. Jesus told us that all people will worship the beast, but it does not say that He approves it. So God may allow a short time of animal sacrifice, but it does not mean He approves it.

The prophesies in the Bible about the 3rd temple is to literal to ignore. It is so important that Jesus even mentioned it. According to Him we will only know that we are in the final 3.5 year great trib when we see the Abomination in the temple as told by Daniel. So if we don't take His Word as a fact, how will we ever know if we have entered the trib and who the real AC is?

:itsgood:

by **WallDoctor** on Sun May 24, 2009 2:03 pm

IamtheWalrus wrote:This temple is not one built by hands, the sooner all of you unerstand this, the easier it will be to understand.

Hey Walrus,

Thanks for the symbolic interpretation!! If you are right and the more literal interpretation is wrong, at least we've all heard it and can have a "I CAN'T BELIEVE HE WAS RIGHT!!" moment and adapt accordingly.

:mrgreen:

<----- I don't get MrGreen, but he is cool.

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sun May 24, 2009 2:08 pm

Wickus wrote:The prophesies in the Bible about the 3rd temple is to literal to ignore. It is so important that Jesus even mentioned it. According to Him we will only know that we are in the final 3.5 year great trib when we see the Abomination in the temple as told by Daniel. So if we don't take His Word as a fact, how will we ever know if we have entered the trib and who the real AC is?

Don't worry brother or sister, none taken. The issue here is isn't understanding it only literally, or only symbolic, or only spirutally, it is understanding it as a whole. What is this, in 537 BC, telling...or was it 573 BC...anyway....is it telling me? Also, I would like to know where Jesus mentioned a 3rd temple....it wasn't in Matthew 24, that was the second temple, which has been laid waste. Why is Ezekiel seeing this, not hearing it as Moses had, and was so methodical and detailed in its construction? Another question, many of you propose this is either the millenial, or tribulational temple.....it is obvious that God is dwelling amongst everyone in this temple in Ezekiel....so if it is the tribulational temple, the focus in not on Christ via Judaism and therefore an impossiblity for God to dwell with them, and if it is millenial and animal sacrifices are allowed to "priase" Jesus, is utter blasphemy,
and nonsense. If you or any other person adheres to this kind of behaviour...and I will quote scripture for you:

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

And there is plenty more.

My point is that if either two temples would be the case, both are substituting the sacrifce, final and executive, that Christ offered Himself which goes against the teachings of Christianity, then we must turn not completely from the literal application, but look into it spirtually and symbolically to help us understand why such literal and detailed construction, to the point of it being porportional to the size of Jerusalem as a whole in its design, and the message it is trying to convey to the saints reading it, especially those contemporary to Ezekiel?

by **WallDoctor** on Sun May 24, 2009 2:17 pm

1whowaits wrote:The perspective i believe some christians could have during the 70th week is that how can God bless Israel, who has not accepted His Son, while we who have accepted Christ are suffering greatly? That is similar, imo, the perspective of the elder brother that Jesus appears to describe in Luke 15.

I can see how some Christians might be ticked off as they are about to die for their faith because they know that 144,000 Jews are safe from persecution. Personally that is why when the Fifth Seal talks about the martyrs I think they are martyrs of all ages and not just the Tribulation. There is a blessing that comes from being found worthy to be persecuted for Christ sake. But I really didn't think that's what we were talking about 1WW. I struggle to see the relevance to this discussion.

Also, I think we'll be too busy thinking of our own survival to be all that worried about what God is doing with others.

Run, run, run, run, hide, scavenge for food, run, run, evade bullet shot, run, scavenge for food, run, sleep with one eye open, run, curse jews for easy living in mountains, run, run, evade another bullet.......

by **1whowaits** on Sun May 24, 2009 4:55 pm

WallDr, the relevance to this discussion is your statement earlier that you believe that the rebuilding of the temple is an 'evil act', and that as the Jews have rejected Christ you view them as the 'enemies of God.'

IMO, i believe the rebuilding of the temple by the Jews is not an evil act, in fact it is something that God desires the Jewish people to do. And although the Jewish people of the past did reject Christ, many of those alive today will accept Christ in the near future, they are not viewed as enemies by God, but prodigal sons.

And if one views the Jewish people as 'enemies of God', one will likely be unhappy when God spares and blesses those whom one considers to be God's enemies (like Jonah was when God spared Nineveh).

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sun May 24, 2009 6:31 pm

Either way, sacrificing an animal in praise to Jesus is against the faith....Peter and Paul laid that out pretty plain.
Why would God, want the Jews to build a temple, and sacrifice animals in it?

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sun May 24, 2009 7:02 pm

IamtheWalrus wrote:Either way, sacrificing an animal in praise to Jesus is against the faith....Peter and Paul laid that out pretty plain.
Why would God, want the Jews to build a temple, and sacrifice animals in it?

Well, let's think about this for a minute. The animal sacrifices of the OT were merely a shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus. They looked forward to the cross. Would not a temple with animal sacrifices during the millenium look backward to the cross? All points of history point to Jesus for both salvation and the forgiveness of sin.

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins...Heb 10:10-11

So just as the Ethiopian eunuch learned of Jesus by looking backward to the book of Isaiah, will some Jews during the millenium look backward to the sacrifice of the cross through the lessons of the temple rituals?

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sun May 24, 2009 7:08 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Would not a temple with animal sacrifices during the millenium look backward to the cross?

Abiding, are you serious?

Folks, this is exactly what Peter and Paul stressed against.

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sun May 24, 2009 7:12 pm

IamtheWalrus wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:Would not a temple with animal sacrifices during the millenium look backward to the cross?

Abiding, are you serious?

I'm exploring the possible purpose of animal sacrifice in the future temple as recorded in Ezekiel.

Folks, this is exactly what Peter and Paul stressed against.

Would you please post scripture for this? It will help in the discussion. Thanks.

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sun May 24, 2009 8:10 pm

Abiding,

Exploring the possible purpose of future animal sacrficies recorded in Ezekiel? Huh?

This is a type/shadow of Jesus Christ, and our circumscised hearts worshipping Him.
I posted one scripture in Galatians above that should have said it all, alas, it did not.

I will start with this one and let you thumb through the surface of what is:

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Then onward to some others:

Galatians 3, 4, 5; Hebrew 9, 10...and so much more...but that should scratch the surface for you.

I apologize if I get a little bent out of shape, but it is pretty basic. No more sacrifices.
No more building for Jews to worship in. We will not see Jesus Christ again until they, the Jews, take Him for what He is, (Matt 23:39)... without the blood of bulls, goats, aromas of the firstfruits of the harvest, or anything else that resembles an earthly object except the heart, mind, soul and body of our chasted, virgin praise. Nothing.

by **1whowaits** on Sun May 24, 2009 8:50 pm

Walrus, i think you may be missing the point that there are different tyes of sacrifices and not all sacrifices were for sin. The passages you indicate are discussing forgiveness of sins which involved the sin offering only, and these pointed toward the sacrifice of Jesus once for all for salvation. And Jesus was described as a 'sin offering'- 'God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.' Rom 8:3

Heb 10 appears to be the best passage on this- 'The law is only a shadow of good things that are coming- not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship...But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, becasue it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.'

The sacrifices that have been superceded are the sacrifices for sin, and this is stated repeeatedly in Hebrews- 'Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more. And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.'

There is total agreement that the need for sacrifices for sin have been done away with through the blood of Christ. But not all sacrifices were for sin, there were fellowship offerings and offerings of worship which did not involve any forgiveness of sins. There is no evidence that these types of offerings are an offense to God, in fact it does appear that sacrifices do occur during the millenium, as Zech 14:21 indicates-'all who come to sacrifice..'

Jesus rules during the millenium and if He did not want sacrifices to occur He certainly could stop them. Isa 2 also indicates that Jesus rules from the rebuilt temple, if He did not wish the temple to be rebuilt He could easliy stop that. During the millenium, according to Zech 14, the nations must go to Jerusalem and worship Jesus at the Feast of Tabernacles, a feast which does involve a fellowship offering. In a fellowship offering the animal is sacrificed and then is eaten by those present at the feast as part of the fellowship.

And Malachi 3 does appear to indicate that there will be offerings to Jesus in His temple- 'Then suddenly, the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire will come, says the Lord Almighty. But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiners fire or a launderers soap..Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord, as in days gone by, as in former years.'

From the statements of 'enduring his coming' and 'standing when he appears', Mal 3 is discussing the 2nd coming of Christ. The offerings would then apply to the millenium, and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord as in days gone by, as in the past.

Based on Mal 3 the Jewish people believe that they must rebuild the temple before the Messiah will come, their desire to rebuild the temple is tied in with the desire for the Lord's Messiah to come.

Can you find in scripture any prohibition against fellowship offerings (voluntary act of worship, thanksgiving and fellowship), grain offerings (voluntary act of worship), or burnt offerings (voluntary act of worship and expression of devotion to God)?

Can you find any prophibition or expression by God that He does not want His temple rebuilt?

by **Abiding in His Word** on Sun May 24, 2009 8:58 pm

IamtheWalrus wrote:Abiding,

Exploring the possible purpose of future animal sacrficies recorded in Ezekiel? Huh?

I assume your "huh?" is asking for clarification..... :wink:

You posted this question above:

Either way, sacrificing an animal in praise to Jesus is against the faith....Peter and Paul laid that out pretty plain.
Why would God, want the Jews to build a temple, and sacrifice animals in it?

In response to that question, I was presenting a possible reason for the sacrifice of animals as recorded in Ezekiel.

This is a type/shadow of Jesus Christ, and our circumscised hearts worshipping Him.
I posted one scripture in Galatians above that should have said it all, alas, it did not.

I will start with this one and let you thumb through the surface of what is:

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Then onward to some others:

Galatians 3, 4, 5; Hebrew 9, 10...and so much more...but that should scratch the surface for you.

I had hoped you had scripture you could post that mentioned Peter and Paul's plain statements against temple worship and/or animal sacrifice rather than asking me to read 5 chapters of scripture to find them. I'll try to read those chapters tomorrow if time allows.

I apologize if I get a little bent out of shape, but it is pretty basic. No more sacrifices.
No more building for Jews to worship in.

The Jews around the world are still worshipping in buildings/synagogues. They want the one re-built in Jerusalem. It's true that animal sacrifices do not atone for sin after the perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. No one is disputing that. But for those of us who do believe in a future temple with animal sacrifices, I was simply exploring the possible purpose of those.

We will not see Jesus Christ again until they, the Jews, take Him for what He is, (Matt 23:39)... without the blood of bulls, goats, aromas of the firstfruits of the harvest, or anything else that resembles an earthly object except the heart, mind, soul and body of our chasted, virgin praise. Nothing.

You don't believe there may be any Jews living on the earth during the tribulation or the millennium who will not believe that yet? Can't you understand why unbelieving Jews want the temple to be rebuilt? They are, in essence, still living under the OT.

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sun May 24, 2009 9:01 pm

1WW,

This is in the text:

Eze 43:25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat [for] a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.

Can you explain that?

Can you find in scripture any prohibition against fellowship offerings (voluntary act of worship, thanksgiving and fellowship), grain offerings (voluntary act of worship), or burnt offerings (voluntary act of worship and expression of devotion to God)?

I like your paranthesis, because what you put in paranthesis was all fulfilled in Christ, the Temple.
All the thing the Jewish Levites did, instructed by God, in the OT, pointed to what we as a church and bride, do in worship and praise.

Can you find any prophibition or expression by God that He does not want His temple rebuilt?

Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Is that enough for you? Open your heart and mind.

by **1whowaits** on Sun May 24, 2009 9:22 pm

Walrus, what i put in parenthesis are the descriptions of what those offeirngs were for, as you do not appear to understand the different types of offerings listed in Leviticus.

And i see you have not been able to find any scripture that prohibits these other types of offerings, or any scripture that indicates God does not want His temple rebuilt.

Zech 14 is clear that there will be sacrifices during the millenium. Isa 2 is clear that Jesus will rule from the temple in Jerusalem during the millenium. And Mal 3 does appear to indicate that Jesus will come to the temple and the offerings presented by Jerusalem will be acceptable to Him.

by **WallDoctor** on Sun May 24, 2009 9:26 pm

1whowaits wrote:IMO, i believe the rebuilding of the temple by the Jews is not an evil act, in fact it is something that God desires the Jewish people to do.

Gen 50:20 - "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good."

You confuse the Jewish people doing God's will with the Jewish people doing something that honors Christ. I have no problem with the Temple being rebuilt for the purpose that it needs to be desecrated by the Antichrist but that does not mean it is a good work that the Jews do because their purpose is not to worship Jesus Christ through it. By this logic, we might as well say that the Antichrist will be going to heaven because God purposes that the church will be tested and purified and it is by the Antichrists hand that this will be done. Since the Antichrist is fulfilling the purposes and will of God then the Antichrist must be good. Does anyone believe that??? I hope not!! But yet we will say the Jews are doing a good thing by rejecting Christ and rebuilding the Temple. Well, I disagree.

And although the Jewish people of the past did reject Christ, many of those alive today will accept Christ in the near future, they are not viewed as enemies by God, but prodigal sons.

Except the problem is we do not know who God's Elect are. We can only judge men by the actions they do today. Today if you ask them if they believe in Jesus they will deny him so today they are the enemy of God. Just as you and I were enemies of God before we were saved by Christ. So some are prodigal sons who will return and others are not. We treat them all the same and preach the Gospel to both groups and allow God to draw out his Elect.

And if one views the Jewish people as 'enemies of God', one will likely be unhappy when God spares and blesses those whom one considers to be God's enemies (like Jonah was when God spared Nineveh).

One of the problems of Jonah is he did not realize how great a recipient of grace he himself was. Though an Israelite, if he still understood that it was only by God's goodness to him that he was not a Ninevite, perhaps his heart would have been far more sympathetic towards the mercy God had shown to Nineveh. This is our state. We are great sinners who God has mercifully spared from a judgment we fully deserve. It's this that keeps us humble and thankful and not upset when we see God's mercy on others. And I don't consider the Jews to be any different than I was before I came to Christ so I have no right to treat them differently when Christ brings them to repentance. But it's always faith in Christ first. YOU KEEP MISSING THAT POINT!!!!!!

And what a blessed day it will be when they who once rejected Christ will one day call upon him as their Savior. I will not curse them as enemies but rejoice that the olive tree is fully restored.

Rom 11:24 - For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

BUT CHRIST FIRST!!! Otherwise they will never be grafted in.

by **kazbo** on Sun May 24, 2009 9:27 pm

Google is my friend. Looked up some possible reasons for having animal sacrifices in the millenium. Thought this one was interesting, which is what Abiding alluded to, I believe:

To point to the Saviour. Just as the OT sacrifices pointed to Christ in type, so the sacrifices can be a living reminder of the ways in which Christ fulfilled the sacrifices. They will show that the reigning Sovereign is also the suffering Saviour. When we keep the Lord's Supper, we do it in remembrance of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:24-25). Christ has already died, yet we memorialize His death on the cross when we take of the bread and fruit of the vine. This would be perfectly proper for the kingdom age. They would provide the Old Testament pictures without the veil hiding their meaning (2 Corinthians 3:13-15).

http://www.learnthebible.org/millennium-sacrifices.html

During the Millennium animal sacrifice will replace the Lord’s Supper or communion as the memorial to the Lord’s completed work on the cross.

Children born during the Millennium will have to choose to be saved just like you and I. They’ll use these sacrifices to to learn about the Messiah just as Old Testament believers did.

Before the cross anyone who believed by faith that the sacrifices represented a coming Redeemer who would die for their sins was saved. In the Millennium anyone who believes by faith that the sacrifices represent the Redeemer who already died for their sins will be saved. Jesus died once for all time. Some looked forward to it while others will look back upon it. The objective for all is the same, belief by faith.

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-t ... illennium/

And then:

Many who take a literal interpretation of these sacrifices also believe that they will serve as a memorial to Christ’s once-for-all atoning work. Yet, critics believe this to be a flawed conclusion. Support for a future memorial aspect can be seen in the fact that our current observation of the Lord’s Supper includes this aspect (1 Corinthians 11:23-26). Under the Mosaic system — which looked ahead — many times various temple sacrifices are specifically called “memorials” (Exodus 30:16; Leviticus 2:2, 9; 5:12; 6:15; 24:7; Numbers 5:15, 18, 26). Such terminology could in fact be the basis for our current Church Age understanding of remembering the Lord’s death adopted by Paul. The Mosaic memorial aspect clearly supports viewing future Temple sacrifices in this way, as millennial believers look back upon Christ’s sacrificial provision.

It must be remembered that the levitical sacrifices of the Mosaic system are said by the Bible to “make atonement” as well (for example, Leviticus 4:20, 26, 31, 35, etc.). If these sacrifices in the past actually atoned for the people’s sins, which, of course, they did not, then they would be equally blasphemous in light of Christ’s perfect sacrifice. Hebrews 10:4 says, “It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.” Furthermore, there would have been no need for Christ’s once and for all atoning sacrifice if these past acts did the job.

So what do both past and future sacrifices accomplish if they don’t actually remove sin? These sacrifices provide ritual cleansing of the priests, sanctuary, and utensils. Only Christ’s sacrifice on the cross actually removes one’s sin. Jerry Hullinger provides a solution that:

...deals honestly with the text of Ezekiel, and in no way demeans the work Christ did on the cross. This study suggests that animal sacrifices during the millennium will serve primarily to remove ceremonial uncleanness and prevent defilement from polluting the temple envisioned by Ezekiel. This will be necessary because the glorious presence of Yahweh will once again be dwelling on earth in the midst of a sinful and unclean people.

Because of God’s promise to dwell on earth during the millennium (as stated in the New Covenant), it is necessary that He protect His presence through sacrifice... It should further be added that this sacrificial system will be a temporary one in that the millennium (with its partial population of unglorified humanity) will last only one thousand years.4

Critics of future millennial sacrifices seem to assume that all sacrifices, past and future, always depict Christ’s final sacrifice for sin. They do not! There were various purposes for sacrifice in the Bible. Many of the sacrifices under the Mosaic system were purification rituals. This is why atonement can be said in the past to be effective, yet still need Christ’s future sacrifice, because many of the sacrifices did atone ceremonially, cleansing participants and objects in temple ritual. In Ezekiel 43:20 and 26, the atonement is specifically directed at cleansing the altar in order to make it ritually clean. The other uses of atonement also refer to cleansing objects so that ritual purity may be maintained for proper worship (Ezekiel 45:15, 17, 20).

Those last two quote blocks are taken from here:

http://www.midnightcall.com/articles/pr ... enium.html

...which is worth checking out. They also briefly discuss whether Ezekiel's temple is literal or symbolic.

by **WallDoctor** on Sun May 24, 2009 9:36 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Well, let's think about this for a minute. The animal sacrifices of the OT were merely a shadow of the sacrifice of Jesus. They looked forward to the cross. Would not a temple with animal sacrifices during the millenium look backward to the cross?

I totally disagree with this. I can accept a Temple in the Millennium Kingdom being built for the purpose of worshiping God but the idea of animal sacrifices I think goes too far. Even understanding the different forms of sacrifices that were made and not all being sin offerings. I'll admit that I haven't studied this to say it's absolutely wrong but I think this is too much a regression when Christ is reigning on the throne where he can be worshiped in person.

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sun May 24, 2009 9:50 pm

1whowaits wrote:Walrus, what i put in parenthesis are the descriptions of what those offeirngs were for, as you do not appear to understand the different types of offerings listed in Leviticus.

I thinkit is you who doesn't understand the reason why those laws were set in the first place.

And i see you have not been able to find any scripture that prohibits these other types of offerings, or any scripture that indicates God does not want His temple rebuilt.

I provided you the words of Jesus Christ regarding the need for a temple...That doesn't appear to be enough for you

Zech 14 is clear that there will be sacrifices during the millenium. Isa 2 is clear that Jesus will rule from the temple in Jerusalem during the millenium. And Mal 3 does appear to indicate that Jesus will come to the temple and the offerings presented by Jerusalem will be acceptable to Him.

The OT saints and especially the Jews as a nation, did not understand that God would come in the flesh, but He did, and fulfilled everything regarding the temple, its sacrifices and worship. All Christians shall be living temples, and spiritual priests, dedicated to the honour of God and employed in his service. In the church the true worshippers shall worship God in spirit and in truth, and neither in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem .

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Zechariah was a prophet who began witnessing to Judah during the time of the rebuilding of the temple, about 520 B.C. after the Jews returned from their Babylonian captivity. Zechariah called on the Jews to finish the task of reconstruction by encouraging them about the important future role of the temple. His was an old covenant ministry, so we shouldn’t be surprised that his book is full of images pertaining to that covenant only.

Zechariah was particularly interested in describing Jerusalem and the temple as the apple of God’s eye. He emphasizes that the Jews worshipping at the house of God would gain the victory over their enemies through the power of the Lord (Zech 1:14-17; 8:3-22; 12:13, 10; 13:1; 14:1-18). This theme fits the circumstances well in Zechariah 14. The small number of exiles who had returned to Jerusalem from Babylon to rebuild the temple were besieged on every side by enemies. It was in such trying times that Zechariah brought the word of comfort to the people about Jerusalem’s and the temple’s wonderful future (Ezra 5:1-2).

:shock:

If we were to interpret this passage literally, and say that it teaches all people everywhere and at all times must observe the Festival of Tabernacles, we are faced with obvious exegetical difficulties and logical contradictions.

If we see Zechariah’s reference to the Festival of Tabernacles as symbolic of an important theological point (in a non-Mosaic, Christian context), these kinds of problems and inconsistencies disappear. Zechariah sees the nations who once hated God’s way now acknowledging the Messiah and his way as being just and true. Jerusalem and the temple, of course, were considered the focal point of God’s presence under the old covenant. Now it is in Christ.

by **IamtheWalrus** on Sun May 24, 2009 10:00 pm

Supporting the Jews to rebuild a temple and institute sacrifices from a Christian is just the same as a Christian supporting the worship of Vishnu in a Hindu temple.
They are both dead religions. They are both abominations and will condemn you to hell if you do not receive Christ.

by **1whowaits** on Mon May 25, 2009 8:49 am

Walrus, if Christ fulfilled everything regarding the temple, making any future temple unnecessary, why does Jesus reign from the temple during the millenium as Isa 2 clearly states- 'In the last days the mountain of the Lord's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways so that we may walk in his paths.'

This same passage is repeated in Micah 4, there is no mistake, the house of the God of Jacob is the Temple in Israel and it will be rebuilt. The mountain of the Lord's Temple is the temple mount and the geographical changes described are recognized as occurring during the millenium, when swords will be beat into plowshares.

Clearly there wil be a rebuilt, literal temple during the millenium, and Jesus will rule from that temple. If the temple is no longer useful why is Jesus ruling from it during the millenium?

And as Zech clearly states all the nations will literally go up to Jerusalem and worship Jesus and celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. The description is detailed, this is not symbolic, and there are multiple passages that demonstrate Jesus reigning from Jerusalem, in the rebuilt temple, and acts and feasts associated with Judaism will be performed for 1,000 years.

Zech 14 also indicates that there will be sacrifices during the millenium, and other passages (Mal 3, Isa 66)describe Levites being chosen and purified during the millenium, those who offered the sacrifices. (and I will select some of them to be priests and Levites- Isa 66)

Jesus did fulfill the law and made the sacrifices for sin unnecesary, and every Jew must accept Him as savior. But as He does rule from the temple, selects Levites, allows sacrifices, and requires all to celebrate the feast of tabernacles, it would appear that there are elements associated with Judaism that God wishes to preserve.

After all it is God who set up the feasts and gave instructions for the Temple and there is every indication that He will continue to have a Temple and have the apponted feast of Tabernacles celebrated.

So the temple that God gave the plans for, that God instructed to be built, that God will rule from in the future is the same as the temple of the Hindus? Is that what you realy want to say? Is your understanding as limited as it appears to be?

by **Mrs. B** on Mon May 25, 2009 8:53 am

13 Ton Temple Corner Stone to be Presented to the People....

Jesus said......John 14:1....Let not your heart be troubled:
Ye Believe in God, Believe also in me.

2....In MY Father's house are many mansions:
If it were not so, I would have told you.
I Go To Prepare a Place for you...

3...And If I go and prepare a place for you, I will Come Again and Receive you unto Myself:
that where I am, There ye may be also...

4...And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know....

Paul wrote....II Corin. 5:1....FOR we know that if Our Earthly House of this Tabernacle were dissolved, we have a Building of God....An House NOT MADE WITH HANDS, ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS...

Paul also wrote...Hebrews 12:21....And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:

22......But You are Come unto Mount Sion

and unto the City of the Living God,

The Heavenly Jeusalem...

And to an innumerable Company of angels,

23...To The General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn...

which are Written in Heaven,

and to God the Judge of all,

and to the Spirits of Just men made perfect...

24....And to Jesus the Mediator of the NEW COVENANT...

and to the BLOOD OF SPRINKLING,

THAT SPEAKETH BETTER THINGS THAN that of Abel..

Heb. 13:14.....Le us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproaach...

14...For Here have we no Continuning City...But we Seek One to come...

15....By Him Therefore Let us OFFER.........THE SACRIFICE OF PRAISE TO GOD...

That is the Fruit of Our Lips givng thanks to His Name........

John 1:11....He came unto his own, and his own received him NOT...

12...But as many as Received Him...
To Them Gave He Power to Become the Sons of God...
Even to them that believed on His Name:

13....Which were Born, Not of Blood, Nor of the Will of the Flesh,
Nor of the Will of Man...BUT OF GOD....

Jesus came Preaching the Kingdom of God...

You Must Be Born Again....Born of the Spirit...

Gal 3:6...Even as Abraham believed God...

and it was accounted unto him for Righteousness...

7....Know ye therefore that they which are of Faith...

the Same are the Children of Abraham..

8...And the Scripture, Foreseeing that God would Justify the Heathen through faith..

Preached Before The Gospel unto ABRAHAM, Saying...In Thee shall all Nations be Blessed....

9...So then They which be of faith....are Blessed with Faithful Abraham.....

10...For as many as are of the works of the Law are Under the CURSE:

for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in ALL things which are written of the book of the law to do them....

11....But that NO MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW in the sight of God, it is evident:
for the JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH....

12....And the Law is NOT of Faith:

13...CHRIST hath Redeemed us from the Curse of the Law,
Being made a Curse for us:
for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14.....That The BLESSINGS OF ABRAHAM....Might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ:

That We Might Receive....The Promise of the Spirit...Through Faith.....

To Rebuild the Temple is An Abomination to God....
But we know that God Will do a Short Work with Israel...

and that World Judgment Begins at Jerusalem...

When I was in Jerusalem...Our Guide was looking so for the Rebuilding of the Temple.....I got to witness to him
and Tell Him that Our Body was the Temple.....That God dwelt in the Body of Christ....He was a very educated man...He knew 6 languages....He knew more about Jesus then Most Christians....In fact he knew every detail about Jesus....but he did not believe that he was the Messiah....we spent a week with him....and witness to him...

The next time My Husband went back He came and told Him.....I am a Christian....I have accepted Jesus as the Messiah.....This was such a blessing.....There are More Jewish Christians today then ever before.....God is calling many Jewish people into the Kingdom....before the Judgment....God is doing a work...

I believe we are the Generation that will not pass away until all is fuflilled.....

bb

by **IamtheWalrus** on Mon May 25, 2009 11:20 am

1WW, the issue with your view is that you incorporate latter days prophecy from the OT to latter days in the NT. Christ fulfilled the latter days prophecies of Him ruling from Jerusalem for the OT. This is already in place.

Isaiah's sermon begins with the prophecy relating to the last days, the days of the Messiah, when his kingdom should be set up in the world, in His first advent and resurrection, and at the latter end of the Mosaic economy, which ended in 70AD. In the last days of the earthly Jerusalem, just before the destruction of it, that is 70 AD, this heavenly Jerusalem should be erected, in which it did with the desolation of the city, sancturary, and system as a whole. Regardles of whether or not they practice it today is besides the point, it is not God's desire for them to do so.
His desire for them is salvation through Jesus Christ. The days of the Mosaic system are long gone. The Jerusalem spoken here is not of an earthly one, but of the spiritual.

Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Christ stated to His disciples in the Olivet Discourse plenty of Apocalyptic imagery that they would recognize through past prophets like Daniel, Ezekiel, Jerimiah, Zechariah, Isaiah, and more, to the end of the age....the age of Judaism.
This age was to end by His sacrifice, final and executive, to:

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

This kingdom has been set up, established, and instituted in the doctrines of Jesus, Paul, Peter, James and John.
The Mosaic sysem is finished, no more, nada, end of story. The blood of animals will no longer suffice or even parallel anything that we can do with an exalted and virgin heart. This is the focus...the heart.

Jesus did fulfill the law and made the sacrifices for sin unnecesary, and every Jew must accept Him as savior. But as He does rule from the temple, selects Levites, allows sacrifices, and requires all to celebrate the feast of tabernacles, it would appear that there are elements associated with Judaism that God wishes to preserve.

After all it is God who set up the feasts and gave instructions for the Temple and there is every indication that He will continue to have a Temple and have the apponted feast of Tabernacles celebrated.

You never addressed the sin offering made in Ezekiel 43? What do you make of that in your literal temple?

Christ said to His disciples in the Olivet Discourse, speaking to that generation, an issue that nobody can get around no matter how much scriptureal eisegesis they pull, it doesn't work. The Olivet Discourse was laden with Apocalyptic imagery that His disciples understood from past prophets and their ministries concerning the harlotry and judgements that fell on Israel and Judah in the past.

Christ said:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Then we have Paul confiming his work shortly before his death and the final blow to Jerusalem:

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Sorry 1WW, the theology of the rebuilt temple, animal sacrifices, and worship of a God that confirmed the covenant with His death, not observed by Judaism, is first and foremost non-exegetical, and second contradctory to the faith of Christianity. This theolgy is dangerous and leads those who adopt it into improper discernement of prophetic scripture, and most possibly, improper discernment to the doctrine of Christianity as a whole. To believe that it is neccesary for the Jews to come to Christ to build themselves a temple and slaughter animal in place of sin, is as I said, just as pagan as worshipping Vishnu.

This temple in Ezekiel, as well as in Revelation are not plans to be built, like Moses and David/Solomon, as the text doesn't state this. It is just a measurement, in Ezekiel's case it is to show them:

Eze 40:4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew [them] unto thee [art] thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

Sorry...try again.