Jesus Said You MUST Observe the 613 Torah Laws!

[CaryC]

Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phi 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phi 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phi 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phi 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phi 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Kathe]

I'm sorry but picking and choosing different scriptures instead of using the entire bible just isn't right. It is just not good hermanutics to take verses of the bible to suit a need and leave out the context of who and what that scripture is addressing. I just wonder how the God of Abraham, who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow; who IS Jesus Christ, the man and our God who kept the Torah, including the feasts and the Sabbath, would then turn around and 400 years after Christ died would now OK everything to be changed. The God who stated that until the mountains all went away we should keep these laws and feasts and sabbaths???? Paul was not telling us to throw out this stuff. He couldn't do that. The only thing that changed at all was the fulfillment of the REAL sacrifice, the true sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. We no longer need to offer sacrifices but that has nothing to do with the laws of cleanliness and living.

And I just wonder at the church that holds the 10 commandments near and dear and yet doesn't keep the other 603. What makes them so special. They are just a part, the first of many directives. If you aren't going to hold the 603 then why keep the 10? Many of the other 603 are just expanding on those anyway. Then the teaching on what the consequences are for not keeping them and then the teaching on how to atone for messing up. That part is what Jesus came to fulfill.

We have been bamboozeled into thinking they don't matter anymore. They do. We don't keep them to try and be good enough. We keep them because God tells us to. Because we love Him and want to be obedient to Him. Legalism is a word the church loves to throw around for many reasons. Jews have become slaves to their laws, most of which have nothing to do with the 613 laws of the Torah.

I beg you to really look at what God is showing us through those 613 laws. They are simply a way to show that His chosen people are separate from the world. The difference between clean and unclean. Why is something clean or unclean? Because God said it was so. Why are we clean? Because we accepted Him and He made us clean. The Torah is God's way of showing us how to be clean in His eyes. Just because we accepted Christ and we have our "get out of jail free card" doesn't mean we shouldn't honor Him with our obedience to His set down laws. We are set-apart, special people and by keeping these laws we show the rest of the world just how special we are.

[smackbucket]

The "God doesn't change" argument is truly laughable.

"God doesn't change! Oh, but we no longer have to make sacrifices."

If one law can be changed or altered so that it plays out differently, so can others.

[Abiding in His Word]

I'm sorry but picking and choosing different scriptures instead of using the entire bible just isn't right. It is just not good hermanutics to take verses of the bible to suit a need and leave out the context of who and what that scripture is addressing.

You are correct in this, Kathe. Good hermeneutics encompasses the whole counsel of God. That includes recognizing who was being addressed, how they would have understood it, the purpose of the passage and it's revelance to us.

In the matter of the Mosaic Law, it's obvious the law was given to the Jews who had just come out of Egypt. God was establishing a people and defined the behavior of God's people toward Him and their neighbor. The 10 commandments did that. They defined the "do not's" against God and the "do not's" toward our neighbor.

When the Jews continued to sin against God and neighbor, God established a "cause and effect" or a "sin and it's consequence" system for regulating cruel treatment toward one another.

I just wonder how the God of Abraham, who is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow; who IS Jesus Christ, the man and our God who kept the Torah, including the feasts and the Sabbath, would then turn around and 400 years after Christ died would now OK everything to be changed.

Everything DID change after Christ died. That was exactly the purpose of His death, Kathe. Because mankind's heart was always toward evil, Jesus came to pay the "consequences" for their sins.

Paul was not telling us to throw out this stuff. He couldn't do that.

Perhaps you could post scripture that records Paul's admonition for Gentiles (and Jews) to continue to keep the Mosaic Law. That would help. I see just the opposite. Just as the Pharisees confronted Jesus about the law, so did they confront Paul in an effort to force him to bring the gentiles under the law.

But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses." Act 15:5

Paul spread the gospel message of freedom in Christ, which upset the Judaizers, and they constantly tried to discredit Paul. Please read Acts 15 regarding this conflict and it's resolution at the Council of Jerusalem.

The only thing that changed at all was the fulfillment of the REAL sacrifice, the true sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

The "only thing"? That sacrifice was the thing that changed everything...literally everything. That sacrifice was the only one that satisfied God's wrath toward sin for those who believe by faith. The perfect sacrifice paid the price for my sins. The punishment due me was laid on Him.

...But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him...Isa 53:5

We no longer need to offer sacrifices but that has nothing to do with the laws of cleanliness and living.

Please be more specific in which laws of cleanliness and living you think should still be followed by believers. Though the laws are not specifically labeled such, most scholars agree they can be divided into three categories:

Moral laws are those which state the "do this" and/or "don't do that" type laws. They were intended to regulate the behavior of one toward others. (These are summed up in the 1) love the Lord your God and 2) love your neighbor as yourself in the NT.) If believers love their neighbor as themselves, they will not cheat, lie, steal from them, commit adultery with their wives, etc.

The Civil laws define how to deal with disobedience and defines how the penalties and judgements should be rendered or applied. For unbelievers, our civil laws are similar in that they define and mete out penalties and judgements for crimes committed that break the established laws.


The Holiness or "priestly/Levitical" laws are those by which God degreed His people should be set apart in preparation for their entrance into Caanan so as to not adopt their practices. The High Priest offered sacrifices for the sins of himself and those of the people once a year (pretty sure.) We no longer need the Levitical priesthood for the atonement of sin since Jesus is our High Priest who offered the sacrifice that requires no further sacrifices.

Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of god....Heb 10:11-12

And I just wonder at the church that holds the 10 commandments near and dear and yet doesn't keep the other 603. What makes them so special. They are just a part, the first of many directives. If you aren't going to hold the 603 then why keep the 10? Many of the other 603 are just expanding on those anyway.

God's progressive revelation shows first the foundational, basic rules for right living and behavior toward Him and our neighbor. Then He established the "cause & effect" or "sin and consequences" in the Law along with the penalties for breaking them. Then in the NT, He sums them up in the greatest commandments as stated by Jesus:

And He said to him, " 'you shall love the lord your god with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' "This is the great and foremost commandment. "The second is like it, 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." Matt 22:37-40

Then the teaching on what the consequences are for not keeping them and then the teaching on how to atone for messing up. That part is what Jesus came to fulfill.

Are you saying Jesus only fulfilled "part" of the law. If you refer back up a couple paragraphs, you'll see how His death fulfilled the Levitical priesthood (which was a shadow of the priesthood of Jesus); His death fulfilled/satisfied the civil punishment due for sin (for believers). The moral laws which define proper behavior toward God and neighbor are, as you say, good for all time. However, Jesus chose to sum them up in the two great commandments.

So which part of the law didn't Jesus fulfill?

We have been bamboozeled into thinking they don't matter anymore. They do.

Of course they matter. They were written for our instruction to help us understand God's righteousness and justice and mercy in dealing with His people. They show us His progressive revelation toward holiness in our love and behavior. They help us understand and love Him.

We don't keep them to try and be good enough. We keep them because God tells us to.

No, God told the Israelites to keep them. He did not tell gentiles or pagans to keep them. And after a Jew accepts the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, they are no longer under the penalties and condemnation of the law either.

Because we love Him and want to be obedient to Him.

True. Because we love Him we will love Him with our whole mind, heart, and soul and love our neighbor as ourselves. We will love one another as He has loved us. The whole law is built on this premise.

I beg you to really look at what God is showing us through those 613 laws. They are simply a way to show that His chosen people are separate from the world.

Are you going to adhere to all 613 laws, Kathe? Because the Word says if you are guilty of one, you are guilty of all of them.

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. James 2:10

The difference between clean and unclean. Why is something clean or unclean? Because God said it was so. Why are we clean? Because we accepted Him and He made us clean. The Torah is God's way of showing us how to be clean in His eyes. Just because we accepted Christ and we have our "get out of jail free card" doesn't mean we shouldn't honor Him with our obedience to His set down laws. We are set-apart, special people and by keeping these laws we show the rest of the world just how special we are.

"Just because" we accepted Christ?? That statement appears to minimize once again the work accomplished by the cross. Wasn't His death sufficient for every area of our lives?

Obedience to the Mosaic law does not show the world that we are set-apart nor a special people. It shows the world that we have to have laws to regulate our behavior. Jesus said it very differently:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:34-35

Scripture says that love covers a multitude of sins.

Kathe, the OT Mosaic Law was a mere shadow of what was to come. When Jesus said "It is finished" He meant what He said. His death accomplished what all of previous scriptural history could not.

[CaryC]

Hey,

I totally agree with Abiding, I totally disagree with Abiding. His life/death changed everything. His life/death changed nothing. The intent of His life/death to happen started in the Garden of Eden when, without the shedding of blood there is no redemption, with the sacrifice of those animals God slaughtered to cover Adam and Eve. Everything, everything between then and His actual life and death was only a shadow and temporary as we waited for Him.

It should also be noted that no one, no one waited 400 years to come up with the "idea" that Gentile Christians didn't have to have sacrifices, circumcision, and the 613 laws. Philippians noted above was written in 60 AD. All of Paul's writings (the New Testament) was written before 67-8 AD. The Early Church Fathers were prolific writers, and I mean early. Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, one of the 12, his disciple Iraneus, or Ignatius, and Hippoletius (sp?) all wrote extensively, and none, repeat NONE of them ever promoted the "idea" that the sacrifices, circumcision, and/or the 613 law should be kept, in fact the exact opposite is true. And we've only covered the the time up until the year 150.

Hebrews a book written to Jews at large, to those who did practice the sacrifices, circumcision, and the 613 laws, in 68 AD tell us some things about this. Note: that is practicing one of the principals of Hermeneutics, the Historical Principal noting the people, time, to get an understanding of how they would receive the text.

Chapter 4 notes Jesus as our High Priest.

In Chapter 5 the author notes that Jesus, of the line of Judah, not Levy, the Priestly line, who, therefore has no claim, in the Levitical priesthood, under the Torah Law, to offer sacrifices, is of the order of Melchizedek who is outside and before the Law. Meaning Jesus not only can, but is a High Priest, so He is able to offer sacrifices, namely Himself.

Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

All this was spoken to people who lived their lives around all this and understood what they meant, and into that comes the above. I'm sure they stood agast at this, and in the face of all that, and possible death for this stance, the author spoke truth.

One question you need to ask yourself is, have your received remission of your sins? If you have then Heb. 10: 18 says "...there is no more offering for sin." That's pretty emphatic and plain, don't put any ifs, ands, or buts in there. That would be the Grammical Principal of Hermeneutics. (O and that's not questioning your salvation, just making a point)

The covenant which brought about the sacrifices, circumcision (for the nation which pointed to the covenant made with Abraham), and the 613 laws, was instituted at Mt. Sinai. As you have been reading in Lev. then you should understand what I'm referring to, which was made between God and a people, which was/is a nation, the Jewish Nation. With that in mind Paul addresses Mt. Sinai:

Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


I've probably overstayed my welcome already, but there is a bunch more to say and point out, more Hermeneutics to unveil, but space is growing rather long, in Acts, and Romans, not to mention "Covenants". It's great that you are reading through Lev. but remember this:

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster

[Abiding in His Word]

[CaryC]

Hey,

Yea, probably didn't do to good a job on that, sorry.

What I meant was yea, from a human perspective and terminology the cross was a "new" thing never before done, but from the Fathers perspective it was His plan all along. The problem we are talking about today is what about those intervening years? I say according to the scripture they were shadows, types, foreshadows, and temporary until the actual, permanent came. Plant the cross in the middle of history and shine a light on it from 2009 and it will cast a shadow back over the BC era. Typified by the sacrifices and laws.

A month ago I went from some root canal and crown. When the dentist was through with the root canal, he put a temporary crown on my tooth. My intent from the very beginning was to have something permanent done. I had to wait for the permanent crown to come in, in the mean time I had to settle for the temporary crown and temporary glue (watch what you eat). Once the permanent crown came in, the old temporary one was thrown away, the new permanent one was put on with a permanent glue (eat what you want).

That's the same principal found in the Bible. So none of us need to act surprised as if it is unheard of. The old passes away (fulfilled) the new takes it place.

[Abiding in His Word]

Thank you Cary! I agree.

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Heb 8:13

Referencing Jeremiah 31:33. Now instead of tablets of stone, the new covenant will be written on their hearts.

[mguard]

Wow, this is a great thread

I especially appreciated what Brandon wrote. Not to take anything away from the others who see the error of becoming "torah keepers" This is very personal to me as My Father is a "Messianic Jew" who is obsessed with keeping the law. I have seen this man go from being one who was experiencing the joy and newness of life to someone so judgemental he actually could not enjoy his grandchildren on his last visit because my 8 year old whom I tell the truth is the sweetest thing and loves Jesus, but is very sensitive to those he encounters..... so sensing the judgement and condemnation radiating from my dad, he was very cold to him and not his loving affectionate norm.
My dad of course took this as the distinct possiblity that my son was possessed, I kid you not. He didn't say it directly but he is not a very subtle man. because of course only a demon would not adore my dad and his whatever. I probably let in a demon by buying ham.??

I share this because I have contacted this same law myself ...which he attempts to serve and lets rule over him and I tell the truth that the end result in pursuing this law is death. Now to those of us who encounter this law and we look honestly at our pathetic ability to EVER be righteous by its standard whether we believe in Jesus or not, and whom, while seeing that the law is good and holy but fall on our faces crying out for mercy and For CHrist to be righteous on our behalf there is great repentance Joy and RELIEF in our death with Jesus.

But to those who encounter the law and attempt to live it, to continue therein, they must( in truth) deny the Lord who died for them, because if they refuse the cross and his death they pursue a way that seems right to man but leads to destruction. It is pride and seeking to save your life that you will lose it. But I gladly lose my life that Christ might live in me. A dead person can do neither good, nor evil. It is all now about learning to stay dead..I'm clinging to the cross. Thankful for the grace and faith I could never earn....THe law is the schoolmaster to bring us to the cross. Jesus is the Life by which we are saved! Pray for my dad please.

[mark s]

Matthew 5:17-19
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


The Judaizers claim that we, the Church, are to observe all 613 Torah laws, and the above passage is one of their favorites used to convince others to continue to observe the dietary laws, to get circumcised, etc.

Anyone care to expound on Matthew 5 for me. The main issue I'm having is:

1) "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments."

What is the "least of these?" It can't be every 613 Torah law due to the teaching of Paul and others that clearly show that they (food, drink, festival, new moon, Sabbath day, etc) were a "shadow of the things to come." (Col. 2:17)

2) What is your view on how Christ fulfilled the law?

3) What is your view on "not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished..."

Thanks!

Hi Smackbucket,

I guess this was a while ago, don't know if you're still watching this thread . . .

I think the answer to this question is in the context of the teaching.

Jesus taught this teaching before his death, under the Old Covenant. If your friend wants to try to live by the Old Covenant, that's his prerogative.

But if that's what he wants to do, he has to abide by its judgment - the one who does these shall live. He doesn't stand a chance.

He's trying to blend the new and the old - the righteousness of works as if he were actually keeping the old (though we all know he's not), and the non-condemnation found only in the new.

But his faith is revealed to be in the keeping of the Law, not in Christ's substitutionary death.

Just like later, when Jesus said, "if you forgive others, your Father in heaven will forgive you". This is an Old Covenant teaching - if you do the works, God will accept you.

The New Covenant teaches, "forgive others, just as God in Christ has forgiven you". We do the works because God has accepted us.

Jesus taught the keeping of the Law to those under the Law. The Law condemns those under it. It continues to do so today. That will not change. We have died to the Law, therefore, it no longer governs us, and therefore, no longer condemns us.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[amessenger4god]

Wow, I think Mark said it perfectly. Your friend can live under the law if he wants to, but he must keep all 613 perfectly. If not, he's in trouble. I think part of the purpose of the law was to demonstrate how much we need Jesus AND how perfect Jesus lived while on the earth. When he said He came to fulfill it, I think that is what the New Covenant is--fulfilling the old.

[Lightseeker]

Here's a link that some of you may find helpful (and I am in no way connected). http://www.passion-for-truth.com/audio-teachings.htm

I came across this website recently and have had much of what I've been taught challenged. I ordered the "Church Audit" DVD set and have watched most of it - it is in-depth and taught verse-by-verse. There is no "proof-texting" or scripture twisting as far as I can tell. It is excellent! Most of the following studies can be listened to by mp3 download or streaming video. If desired, they can also be ordered. While I have not listened to them all, I have listened to many and have so far not heard anything that contradicts what the Bible says.

Prepare to be challenged...
(or you can just not listen and write it off. There is none so blind as the one who does not wish to see. )

Blessings all.