Maybe Only a Century More

[ThomasDGW]

There are very few believers in Jesus' Second Coming in the world with my view that Jesus is not coming back in my generation, but I take comfort in the fact that the minority has usually been right in history.

I want to make one more appeal, although I fear it will fall on deaf ears. I believe that the view that Jesus is coming back within a few years or months is having a very detrimental effect on Christians. Because of this view, I see a kind of light attitude toward the world situation. The U.S. is surely going down. Around the world, there are tragic situations. However, according to this widely held view, even among post-tribbers, the coming of Christ is just around the corner, and there is nothing we can do to stop this downturn as evil grows worse. Some of you have even stated that IF you believed that the coming of Christ were a couple hundred years off, THEN you might consider becoming involved in some enterprise or other. But no, you are convinced that the coming of Christ is so soon that you don't have time to do anything except hunker down with some kind of padding. Well, if it turns out that I am right, that the coming of Christ is probably at least 100 years away, are you going to regret your present stance? I think you will. We are NOT to be looking up, per the instructions of the angels in Acts 1:11. We are to be busy, per the instructions of the Lord in Acts 1:8.

Jesus is not coming back in a short time for two principal reasons:

(1) The conditions are not right, and are VERY unlikely to be put in place even within 7 years.
(a) Zechariah 12-14 and Daniel 11:36-40 speak of the use of animal transportation. Such a thing simply is not done today, and it will take quite a while to return to using animal transportation in military operations. It speaks of a loss of technology on a wide scale.
(b) Isaiah 13 and Jeremiah 50-51 speak of the destruction of Babylon, which has not happened yet, since Babylon is inhabited today. Revelation 18 also speaks of this destruction and verse 10 says that kings at that time will say, "Woe! Woe! The great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour, your judgment has come." You can try to find other present-day cities that seem to be symbolized by Babylon, but you will be hard-pressed to find one that the lamenting kings of the earth will CALL "Babylon" when it is destroyed.
(c) When the Beast arrives, he will find an alliance with 10 kings (Revelation 17:10) Some of those kings will come from east of the Euphrates (Revelation 16:12), and they will destroy Babylon (Revelation 17:16). Really, we have very few kings today. I look for a time when the earth will again be governed by kings. Democracy and Republican governments only have worked when the population is of a certain moral character. For most of the world, such a concept is a failure, and the people need a king for stability. The world will figure it out, perhaps soon.

(2) Many Christians are expecting the return of Christ at the present. I heard the video of Franklin Graham telling how pastors all over the world are expecting Jesus to return very soon. Just study Matthew 24:42-51, especially verses 44. The teaching is to be watching, not the clouds to be the first to spot Jesus. That behavior was admonished by the angels. Be watching, as in vigilant, for keeping our lives prepared, and in order. If we don't watch when we know Jesus is not coming, we won't be watching when He does. The evil servant, when he thinks that Jesus would not come for a long time, lets his sinful inclinations loose. The good servant ALSO does NOT think Jesus would be returning for a long time, but he keeps on serving the Lord with his life prepared anyway.

The teaching is clear: When Jesus returns, NO ONE will think it is the time. "In an hour that you do not think, the Son of Man is coming."

(a) If you are depending on expecting the Lord at any time as a motivation to keep your life holy, don't. You will lose that motivation sooner or later. Not expecting Jesus soon is NOT a sin. Being good ONLY when you expect Jesus soon is the sin, which is what the evil servant was doing.

(b) If there is great expectation of the return of Jesus at a certain time, count it as sure: Jesus will NOT come at that time. Jesus will not be mocked. He said that He will return when no one is expecting Him. Do you imagine that there will be even one person expecting Him when He returns, so that that someone could tell Jesus He was wrong?

Now, please, don't ask me if I am ready just in case Jesus comes. Yes, I am ready to flee my house for the countryside. However, the million dollar question I ask you is: Are YOU ready, just in case Jesus does NOT come? From the way you talk on FP forums, I really doubt it.

[Kathe]

I am ready whether Jesus comes today or 100 years from now. At the very minimum the day I die and leave this world behind the waiting will be over for me. It is the time of His choosing. However, with world events shaping up the way they are, with Israel becoming a nation and with Islam rearing its ugly head in all countries of the world, I truly believe we are a very short time away. Should He tarry, that is His business and I will patiently wait on Him, no matter how long it takes. The apostles looked for His return in their lifetimes. I see no problem with expecting Him in mine.

Peace during this time of unleavened bread.

[Douggg]

Hi ThomasDGW, I read your o.p. and words almost fail me. I am really flabergasted by your position. Do you really live in Bolivia?

You are not in a minority, but the majority, by far. Most of the world believes that there is no rapture. That Jesus is not returning. Satanists are in a minority - using your rationale, they are probably right? That's your rationale?

Unless you were born before 1948, all of the end times prophecies will take place in your generation.

How old are you? I bet you are relatively young, and want to hold on to this world because you see a lot of your life left.

We are NOT to be looking up, per the instructions of the angels in Acts 1:11. We are to be busy, per the instructions of the Lord in Acts 1:8.

It is not either/or. We are supposed to be looking up right now because the signs of the times are all around us, and spreading the gospel. That we are right at the threshold of the Antichrist's rule, and the rapture of believers, gives urgency to the spreading of the gospel and trying to get people saved.

I was looking through a flower, shrub, tree catalog just last night. I saw an ad for a Rainer Cherry tree and a Bing Cherry tree. I love Rainer Cherries. But then, as I read, the fruit doesn't appear until the tree is 3-5 years old for the Rainer and 5 years for the Bing. Yikes! There is no way that I am going to buy anything that has a 3-5 year horizon. There are massive, unprecedented signs all around us, that the Jesus is coming for the believers, I mean like very very soon. The confirmation of the covenant by the Antichrist should take place no later than May 14, 2011.
Can't you see how the world is closing in on a globalized government?

Yes, the expectation of Jesus's soon coming has a purifying effect on us. It is supposed to!


Doug L.

[Keeping Alert]

Now, please, don't ask me if I am ready just in case Jesus comes. Yes, that extra day we have am ready to flee my house for the countryside. However, the million dollar question I ask you is: Are YOU ready, just in case Jesus does NOT come? From the way you talk on FP forums, I really doubt it.

Thanks ThomasDGW for the kind concern. However, I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that we at FP at not ready just in case Jesus does not come. In fact, even though we expect Jesus to arrive soon, you can see over and over again thatwe are thankful for our love ones. I think we are all ready for anything.

Thanksand Blessings,
KA

edit - thankful to God that we have more time to spend with our love ones so that we can share the gospel with them. (I was typing with a baby in the other hand)

[Exit40]

There are very few believers in Jesus' Second Coming in the world with my view that Jesus is not coming back in my generation, but I take comfort in the fact that the minority has usually been right in history.

Well Thomas, it must be very comforting indeed to know that history backs up your opinion. But you express a very one sided view of Prophecy. And you fail to address the Lord's command to watch for Him. He spoke that plenty of times. I agree with you in the sense that maybe there is too much speculation and theorizing, but then maybe we should look at what a watchman really goes through in the process of his duty.

We are talking about the Household of the Lord here. The day watch is easy. People are up and going about the business of the Master of the household. If danger is approaching the outer watchmen will report it, and be gathering the people to within the walls. The night watch is more difficult. The people inside the walls are asleep, counting on the watchmen to be alert for them. For the night watchman vision is limited, sounds carry in the night. Much is left to speculation, but suspicion of approaching danger is crucial to the night watchman. To ignore something suspicious is to perhaps allow the house to be broken into, just as bad as sleeping through it. So there is a lot of creeping along the wall, talking to other watchmen, being alert if anything of suspicion arises. Certainly fear is a factor, and the rumors of the day. What if's may abound. Suspicious activities outside the wall can make for a long night. But they call for alertness, lest they be caught unawares. And something suspicious on the west wall does not mean nothing is happening on the east wall. Proper watchmen know this. Thank God for the morning light, fighting in the dark is really troublesome, especially when you are the guardian of those asleep, in a world that is full of thieves and robbers intent on breaking you up if they can.

There are many jobs within the Household of the Lord. He spoke sometimes in parables of this. My understanding is you are a missionary in Bolivia. May God Bless You and those in your charge as you work there in these dangerous times. I have been set as a watchman, having heard the Lord's Voice commanding me to " WATCH FOR ME ". I have spent the better part of two decades trying to figure out just what that means, and I have come up with three parts to my job that I can see. The first is to watch for the Lord within me, for certainly I am a lost watchman without His guidance. I seek Him daily in prayer and His Word. The second is to watch for Him in others, anyone, anywhere, any time, seeking to fulfill His purpose for me, and possibly them, with His guidance. When led by His Spirit this is the really fun part of this job. The third is to literally watch for His return through the signs and Prophecies given in Scripture. This is much harder to do, and His guidance is absolutely necessary here. But it becomes much easier for me when I realize the purpose of Prophecy is not to predict, but to recognize when it is fulfilled by the Lord's Word, then witness to His Glory the events as He has told us beforehand. Notice all the speculation about babylon ? We can't really describe and locate it because it is not here yet. Aspects of it are, the watchmen see it, but it is not yet manifest. When it is, we will know, especially because He has told us beforehand in explicit detail. All Scripture must apply, or it is not yet manifest. Or it could be here but we don't recognize that all of Scripture is fulfilled. So the watchmen gather on the west wall to look into the darkness and speculate, is this it ? While at the same time the watchmen on the east wall are doing the same thing. The danger comes from thinking we know, because what we think we see may be a ruse, a deception, or nothing at all. We are to be wary of this. Knowing the complete Scripture is difficult, so there are many watchmen to help us all out.

Yes the Lord said He will come at an hour we do not think. But that doesn't mean He hasn't told us of signs that reflect His Coming. We may not know the hour, or day. Maybe this is not the generation to see all these things. It matters not, HE IS OUR KING. We are to watch ........ within ........... without .......... For Him ..........

And try not to be so harsh. You don't know either.

God Bless You

David

[Abiding in His Word]

Beautifully explained, Exit40.

[burien1]

Beautifully explained, Exit40.

[OBXBob]

What a wonderful analogy, David!

YBIC,

Bob

[Keeping Alert]

Bravo, David! Bravo!

[savedbygrace]

Hi ThomasDGW, regardless of one's view of the timing of Christ's return to earth, I would say there are definitely some KEY dates coming up in summer 2010, December 2012, and also the four 2014-15 lunar eclipses on the jewish feast days may indicate some big changes coming very soon to this earth... well before 100 years are expired!

[Finaldash]

[c.alt]

Excellent post Exit 40. Thank you for this.

[ThomasDGW]

"However, I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that we at FP at not ready just in case Jesus does not come."

I came to that conclusion because many here have said explicitly they are not willing to do certain things because of Jesus' soon return. Douggg just told us he didn't plant a cherry tree because Jesus is coming soon. Now, a cherry shortage is a minor problem, but what else are you NOT doing because Jesus might come soon?

"The apostles looked for His return in their lifetimes."

Actually, Peter for sure knew he would die before Jesus came, and when you read 2 Timothy, you find that Paul did also. All of them knew that Jesus could not return until the temple was destroyed, and rebuilt.

Douggg, to answer your questions, I do live in Bolivia and have resided here for the past 11 years straight. I am a dual citizen. I receive not one penny of missionary support, but I am active in the church here. I am 52 years old. The expectation of Jesus' soon return is having a paralyzing affect on you, by your own testimony. I said that among believers in Jesus' return I am a minority, and, wow, am I an unpopular minority, am I not?

Now, David, I am not sure who that old man in the cartoon is supposed to be, but white hairs have nothing to do with this discussion. I base my KNOWledge that Jesus is not coming by 2018 on the direct statement of Jesus that He will come when NO ONE expects Him. You're expecting Him, aren't you? He will NOT come. Get to work. You have a long row to hoe. When you see Babylon, located south of Baghdad in the present country of Iraq, become a world center, you will not have to wonder if you are following a ruse.

Exit40, in my point #2, I specifically gave my views on watching. I am watching.

[Keeping Alert]

"I base my KNOWledge that Jesus is not coming by 2018 on the direct statement of Jesus that He will come when NO ONE expects Him. You're expecting Him, aren't you? He will NOT come. Get to work. You have a long row to hoe. When you see Babylon, located south of Baghdad in the present country of Iraq, become a world center, you will not have to wonder if you are following a ruse.

Exit40, in my point #2, I specifically gave my views on watching. I am watching.

Dear ThomasDGW,

I agree with you that we should not be paralysed into inaction as we wait for the Lord's return. There is much to do in the meantime and I think it is a fair reminder at least for me. Thanks.

Obviously, with all that is going on on FP, you do not agree that we are living in the very last of the end-times so I doubt any words that I can fill on this page will convince you otherwise.

All I can say that there are 2 types of people who think that the Lord's return is still afar off - One is that they start to live carelessly like the worthless servant in the parable and the other to thank God for the extra time there is and serve the Lord with perserverence.

I am glad that you are in the second camp. And for that God is pleased if you are.

Love-in-Christ,
KA

[Exit40]

Thomas, I did a word search for ' in an hour you think not the Son of Man is coming ' and drew a blank. Would you enlighten us as to where this is so we can examine it in context ?

Now, David, I am not sure who that old man in the cartoon is supposed to be, but white hairs have nothing to do with this discussion. I base my KNOWledge that Jesus is not coming by 2018 on the direct statement of Jesus that He will come when NO ONE expects Him. You're expecting Him, aren't you? He will NOT come. Get to work. You have a long row to hoe. When you see Babylon, located south of Baghdad in the present country of Iraq, become a world center, you will not have to wonder if you are following a ruse.

Thank you for your comments and admonition. I see that we are in agreement mostly with perhaps a clarification of the difference between watching and expectation of imminent arrival, as you seem to think I am expecting. We are told in Scripture certain events must transpire before He comes, signs which we are to watch for. First these things must happen, all of them, which we are to watch for, then we can BEGIN to expect His arrival, but we still don't know exactly when now do we ? First things first, all of them in completion, perfect according to the Word.

The cartoon caricature is that of an elder giving an admonishment to a fellow believer to not lecture and especially paint with such a broad brush those many here on this board who do not wear your paint . It is clear to me you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have something to say regardless, so by all means, forge ahead. My caution to you is no Scripture is of private interpretation, as I am sure you are aware, and not to put the relish of supposed minority thinking onto the meat of your message, lest you be misunderstood at best, and ostracized at worst.

God Bless You

David

[1whowaits]

Thomas, i would disagree with some of your assumptions in your OP.

Jesus did not say that we would not know the year or the month or the season of His return, He stated only that we would not know the 'day' (you do not know on what day your Lord will come-Matt 24:42) or the 'hour' (no one knows about that day or hour- Matt 24:36).

You make the incorrect assumption (IMO) that at least some of us will not know the 'season' and the approximate time of His return, which Paul also appears to refute in 1 Thess 5- 'about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night....But you brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief...so then let us not be like others who are asleep, but let us be alert and self controlled.' Paul indicates that the DOTL, Jesus' return, will not surprise us, if we are alert and awake. If we are not surprised by the 'day' we then know at least the approximate time of it's occurrance.

Which is the point of much of prophetic scripture, we are given the prophesied events that lead up to Jesus' return and the DOTL, it will be no surprise to us.

And some of those prophesied events have already come to pass, the biggest one being the regathering of Israel to her land and the formation of the nation. This does appear to be fulfillment of Ezek 36 and 37, the nation has been reformed after 2,000 years.

And many prophetic passages can only be fulfilled after Israel is a nation and is regathered to her land, Gog-Magog cannot occur without Israel in the land, the rebuilding of the Temple with worshippers there as pictured in Rev would not occur without Israel in the land, the AOD cannot occur without the Temple being rebuilt, Jesus cannot return to Jerusalem at armageddon to deliver Israel as Zech 14 describes if Israel is not there.

And there will not be multiple future regatherings of Israel to the land, according to Isa 11- 'In that day the Lord will reach out His hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of His people...', there are only 2 regatherings of Israel from the nations. The first regathering of Israel from the nations listed in Isa 11 is occurring now, the second will occur during the millenium, there are no other regatherings of Israel. This would imply that it is this current regathering that will result in the rebuilding of the temple, which in turn will set the stage for the AOD.

There will not future exiles and regatherings of Israel to the land, this is the only one prior to the millenium. Therefore any mortal threat to Israel, such as the nuclear weapons of Iran, will have to be dealt with decisively, likely by God, which could then set the stage for the rebuilding of the temple, we are that close.

Also the Babylon of Rev is not Babylon in Iraq, the Babylon in Rev 18 is a seaport (every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. When they see the smoke of her burning....), as the smoke from a destroyed Babylon in Iraq cannot be seen from the sea as it is well inland, ruling it out as 'the' Babylon. Jerusalem is referred to as 'Sodom' and 'Egypt', so prophetic scripture can refer to cities by names not their own.

As far as animal transportation in prophetic scripture, allegory is used in several places, and prophets may describe future machines as what they might appear to be, or function as, in their own times. And if there are multiple EMP attacks the return to the use of animal transportation could become literal within a very short time.

And the beast, the little horn of Dan 7, appears to grow up among the 10 horns, what the 10 horns are may not become clear until the little horn is among them. What exactly the 10 horns/kings refers to is not completely clear, but the 10 nations of the WEU could be a start and there is already discussion of dividing the world up into 10 separate sections of governance, the seeds for 1 world government are already planted.

I realize your motives are good in you OP, you wish to encourage others to keep working while watching, i would agree with that. But also realize that there are different parts to the body, we are all gifted differently, and the Spirit may drive us toward working in different ways. But we all should be passionate for the lost and the Lord, and we do need to work even while we watch.

And if it turns out that the US is a 'Babylon', many of us may be driven to places like Bolivia or Jerusalem, we may have no choice.

[Douggg]

"However, I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that we at FP at not ready just in case Jesus does not come."

I came to that conclusion because many here have said explicitly they are not willing to do certain things because of Jesus' soon return. Douggg just told us he didn't plant a cherry tree because Jesus is coming soon. Now, a cherry shortage is a minor problem, but what else are you NOT doing because Jesus might come soon?

If the Antichrist has problems with a shortage of cherry trees five years from now.... that is his problem.

Douggg, to answer your questions, I do live in Bolivia and have resided here for the past 11 years straight. I am a dual citizen. I receive not one penny of missionary support, but I am active in the church here. I am 52 years old. The expectation of Jesus' soon return is having a paralyzing affect on you, by your own testimony. I said that among believers in Jesus' return I am a minority, and, wow, am I an unpopular minority, am I not?

Okay, I guessed wrong about your age. my bad. I apologize. What paralyzing affect? Are you implying that I am going to actually have to wash those dishes that have been collecting in my kitchen? The next thing I know, you will want me to start washing my clothes again. That's ridiculous. I am not buying in to your paralyzing affect, partner.

And I am not going to plant any cherry trees, because I got a thousand years to plant all the cherry trees I want - if that is what the Lord allows me to do during the millenium.... and if so, I am going to request that you help me. I don't even know if I am going to have to plant cherry trees, the Lord may be planning on doing that Himself. Whatever is that I am going to be doing, I am sure that Jesus will put it in my heart that I will like it.

Now, David, I am not sure who that old man in the cartoon is supposed to be, but white hairs have nothing to do with this discussion. I base my KNOWledge that Jesus is not coming by 2018 on the direct statement of Jesus that He will come when NO ONE expects Him. You're expecting Him, aren't you? He will NOT come. Get to work. You have a long row to hoe. When you see Babylon, located south of Baghdad in the present country of Iraq, become a world center, you will not have to wonder if you are following a ruse.

If that's what your thinking is that you have some really strange logic. Why do you think Jesus gave the parable of the fig tree? There are passages that say if you can't discern the season regarding the Lord's return - then you are lost
and on your way to perishing. I would be more concerned about that. (I am not saying you are lost. I am just saying that your logic is messed up). Now read these verses. Are they telling to not to watch?

1thessalonians 5.
1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Exit40, in my point #2, I specifically gave my views on watching. I am watching.

Well, you are watching in the hundred year plan. There is no possible way that the world can sustain itself or not blow itself up, left to it's own devices, in more than 20 years. There is so much evidence that Jesus is right at the door. Why do you think all these people here who study bible prophecy, a lot like me for 35 years, knowing that we are really close? I don't think anyone here is paralyzed. We are here because we all have a common bond, in knowing that bible prophecy is God talking to us in a special relationship with Him.

Which had you rather be, the president of the United States, or have plenty of time to be here making posts and discussing bible prophecy? That's a real easy choice for me. I rather have the time to study bible prophecy, watch bible prophecy videos, make posts, argue and discuss back and for with my fellow Christians over biblical matters. It's a lot better than being president.

Doug L.

[ThomasDGW]

"And many prophetic passages can only be fulfilled after Israel is a nation and is regathered to her land, Gog-Magog cannot occur without Israel in the land, the rebuilding of the Temple with worshippers there as pictured in Rev would not occur without Israel in the land, the AOD cannot occur without the Temple being rebuilt, Jesus cannot return to Jerusalem at armageddon to deliver Israel as Zech 14 describes if Israel is not there."

I am in complete agreement here. So, why were there people teaching the imminent return of Christ before Israel was back in the land? I'll tell you. It is because they said, "Well, there are lots of symbologies in the Bible, and God doesn't mean the literal nation of Israel." Now you all are doing the same thing with the other prophecies I referred to. Now that Israel is back in the land, everyone is excited as if things have to end soon. No, Israel can be back in the land for a hundred years more easily. It has already been 60 years. Besides, we still don't have a majority of Jews back in the land. Maybe when the U.S. collapses that will begin to happen.

"Also the Babylon of Rev is not Babylon in Iraq, the Babylon in Rev 18 is a seaport (every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. When they see the smoke of her burning....), as the smoke from a destroyed Babylon in Iraq cannot be seen from the sea as it is well inland, ruling it out as 'the' Babylon. Jerusalem is referred to as 'Sodom' and 'Egypt', so prophetic scripture can refer to cities by names not their own."

If you are going to make a firm conclusion, you had better get into the nitty-gritty details. First, although it says that they are sea captains, it does not say that they are at sea when they see the burning. In fact, verse 19 says that they threw dust on their heads, a strong indication that they were NOT at sea at the time. Second, even if they were, it could be possible to see smoke at 300 miles away, which is the distance from Babylon to the Persian Gulf. The ash from Mt. St. Helens blocked out the sun for a farther distance than that. Jerusalem is SPIRITUALLY called Sodom and Egypt (Revelation 11:8). You would not hear anyone saying, "Oh no, Sodom just got hit with a Kassam rocket!" or "I am going to Egypt to visit the Garden Tomb this year." And where do you see Babylon called a sea port? Her goods are carried by sea. So are cars made in Detroit. Anyway, to get a sea-going ship into Babylon, all you have to do is dredge out the Euphrates and Shatt al-Arab.

"And if there are multiple EMP attacks the return to the use of animal transportation could become literal within a very short time."

Now, there I think you might be right. Keep watching.

"' in an hour you think not the Son of Man is coming ' "

Exit40, I gave you the reference in the first post and specifically asked you all to examine it: Matthew 24:44 It is also in Luke 12:40.

"My caution to you is no Scripture is of private interpretation"

My caution to you is not to let this principle keep you from taking the Bible for what it says. It sounds a lot what the Catholic Church might have said to Martin Luther about salvation by faith. I think that principle means that we are not to interpret, but to receive with meekness the engrafted word.

You talk a lot about one world government. Don't forget that the statue of Daniel ends in 10 toes and iron mixed with clay. Nebuchadnezzar had a one world government. After Rome lost its grip and split into two legs, the next one world government in going to be that of Christ. The one-worlders will never get their act together. Even the Antichrist will have to rely on his ten king alliance and they will be against Babylon. Organized crime is never truly unified.

"If the Antichrist has problems with a shortage of cherry trees five years from now.... that is his problem."

What if Muslim background believers who are being chased out with death threats have no place to go? Is that their problem? What if there is a solution to put in motion, but it takes 5 years. Nothing doing, huh? What if brothers from Zimbabwe are in dire straights? Is anyone interested in going to the professing-Christian, neighboring country of Zambia and reaching out a hand? No, just send them a card telling them to hang on since the rapture is coming before 2011, maybe this year. That is a partial paralysis. I am not saying that you are completely paralyzed, but paralyzing effects are not always total.

"There is no possible way that the world can sustain itself or not blow itself up, left to it's own devices, in more than 20 years."

That is a paralyzing thought, and I disagree totally. I am not ignorant. I studied in college for 8 years in undergraduate and graduate studies in engineering, science of all types, math and pedagogy. I am a mechanical engineer with 12 years experience in automotive design. I have studied earth and atmospheric science. I am roughly familiar with nuclear science. I have taught world geography and world history in high school. That doesn't mean I am right, but it does mean you shouldn't just ignore me because you once again assume I am green behind the ears.

The parable of the fig tree teaches that when you see "all these things" we can know that the coming of Christ is within the generation. What are all those things? Not a fig tree forming leaves (that is the sign that summer is near), but the things just mentioned in Matthew 24:14-31. After the AoD appears and the other things unfold, even after the elect are gathered, there are some delays when things seem to settle down. Even those who are watching the signs will think that the time has been lengthened. I would agree with you that a person might be expecting Jesus within a near future, but not expect Jesus a certain hour when He comes. But as long as you maintain the belief that Jesus will come any hour, maybe this very hour, Jesus will not come then.

We are told to watch and not sleep, but you know that ALL ten virgins, wise and foolish, were sleeping when the lord came for the wedding (Matthew 25). Jesus is coming back for a sleeping church, just like He came back to sleeping disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane. I am not saying that we cannot discern the signs, but that at least most of those left will be sleeping at the time. There might be a few who are watching, alert, and ready, per Luke 12:37, but even they will not be expecting Jesus to come at the hour He does. However, the Day of the Lord will not overtake us as a thief, even if we are sleeping, because our oil bottles will be full. Well, I will be raised from the dead on that day. I take comfort in the fact that I will not live until the coming of Christ and have to be part of the sleeping church. I pray for my children and grandchildren that I don't have yet that they will have the grace to make it through if they are unfortunate enough to be in the last generation. I am teaching them prophecy so they will have a clue what is going on as things unfold more. I teach them to work, for the night is coming when no man can work. It is still day. Men can work. There are wide open doors, but they need cooperation of hundreds, maybe thousands, of people in long-term commitment to go through. However, with this expectation that Jesus is coming back very soon, no one is interested in anything but last-ditch evangelism: Movies, concerts, quick church-growth schemes. It is a tragedy.

[smackbucket]

I'm kind of surprised to see that no one thinks Thomas DGW has anything to say (kind of). While I don't agree with your every conclusion, Thomas, it's very clear that Jesus doesn't have to come back within a few years just because some have misinterpreted the fig tree parable to say that He must.

I certainly think He could come back in my lifetime, but I also know that He may not. I'm not sure that the Old Testament's mentioning of horses, rather than cars, trucks, etc, means what you think it might, but I've got one more to add. This will probably be a very unpopular idea because most Christians seem to think we are surrounded by nothing but filth, and that it can't get any worse, so Christ must be right around the corner. But I think that we've seen next to nothing when it comes to society and its perversions. The love of self within civilization can grow much worse than it has, and I tend to lean towards the thought that it will get much worse, and that it won't be where it needs to be by the 2010 "deadline" for all things to fall together nicely. But this is only an opinion that I don't cling to too hard.

[Douggg]

"If the Antichrist has problems with a shortage of cherry trees five years from now.... that is his problem."

What if Muslim background believers who are being chased out with death threats have no place to go? Is that their problem? What if there is a solution to put in motion, but it takes 5 years. Nothing doing, huh? What if brothers from Zimbabwe are in dire straights? Is anyone interested in going to the professing-Christian, neighboring country of Zambia and reaching out a hand? No, just send them a card telling them to hang on since the rapture is coming before 2011, maybe this year. That is a partial paralysis. I am not saying that you are completely paralyzed, but paralyzing effects are not always total.

Governments control armies. What you are bringing up is a case of Governmental military intervention.

"There is no possible way that the world can sustain itself or not blow itself up, left to it's own devices, in more than 20 years."

That is a paralyzing thought, and I disagree totally. I am not ignorant. I studied in college for 8 years in undergraduate and graduate studies in engineering, science of all types, math and pedagogy. I am a mechanical engineer with 12 years experience in automotive design. I have studied earth and atmospheric science. I am roughly familiar with nuclear science. I have taught world geography and world history in high school. That doesn't mean I am right, but it does mean you shouldn't just ignore me because you once again assume I am green behind the ears.

There are participants here at this discussion forum who have all sorts of pedigrees. I have not called anyone ignorant. I do think it is not realistic to believe that Jesus is not coming back in your lifetime - assuming you would reach 70. That's what should be ignored.

The parable of the fig tree teaches that when you see "all these things" we can know that the coming of Christ is within the generation. What are all those things? Not a fig tree forming leaves (that is the sign that summer is near), but the things just mentioned in Matthew 24:14-31. After the AoD appears and the other things unfold, even after the elect are gathered, there are some delays when things seem to settle down. Even those who are watching the signs will think that the time has been lengthened. I would agree with you that a person might be expecting Jesus within a near future, but not expect Jesus a certain hour when He comes. But as long as you maintain the belief that Jesus will come any hour, maybe this very hour, Jesus will not come then.

Do you really think you can manipulate Jesus's return by what you believe or not believe?

We are told to watch and not sleep, but you know that ALL ten virgins, wise and foolish, were sleeping when the lord came for the wedding (Matthew 25). Jesus is coming back for a sleeping church, just like He came back to sleeping disciples in the Garden of Gethsemane. I am not saying that we cannot discern the signs, but that at least most of those left will be sleeping at the time. There might be a few who are watching, alert, and ready, per Luke 12:37, but even they will not be expecting Jesus to come at the hour He does.

However, the Day of the Lord will not overtake us as a thief, even if we are sleeping, because our oil bottles will be full. Well, I will be raised from the dead on that day. I take comfort in the fact that I will not live until the coming of Christ and have to be part of the sleeping church. I pray for my children and grandchildren that I don't have yet that they will have the grace to make it through if they are unfortunate enough to be in the last generation. I am teaching them prophecy so they will have a clue what is going on as things unfold more. I teach them to work, for the night is coming when no man can work. It is still day. Men can work. There are wide open doors, but they need cooperation of hundreds, maybe thousands, of people in long-term commitment to go through. However, with this expectation that Jesus is coming back very soon, no one is interested in anything but last-ditch evangelism: Movies, concerts, quick church-growth schemes. It is a tragedy.

Jesus is coming back for a sleeping church? That don't make any sense to me. 1thess5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Why not pattern your ministry to be the church of Philadelphia?

Doug L.

[Jericho]

I certainly think He could come back in my lifetime, but I also know that He may not. I'm not sure that the Old Testament's mentioning of horses, rather than cars, trucks, etc, means what you think it might, but I've got one more to add. This will probably be a very unpopular idea because most Christians seem to think we are surrounded by nothing but filth, and that it can't get any worse, so Christ must be right around the corner. But I think that we've seen next to nothing when it comes to society and its perversions. The love of self within civilization can grow much worse than it has, and I tend to lean towards the thought that it will get much worse, and that it won't be where it needs to be by the 2010 "deadline" for all things to fall together nicely. But this is only an opinion that I don't cling to too hard.

I agree that there's room for society to get much worse. However it is possible for things to change very quickly. Rather it be another World War, a global famine, an economic crash.. any number of events can cause a chain reaction. Civilized people can become uncivilized very quickly when fear and desperation set in. I tend to think Christ return will happen in my lifetime but if not than that just gives me time to accomplish the things in this life that I want.

[smackbucket]

However it is possible for things to change very quickly.

I don't disagree!

[Jericho]

a) Zechariah 12-14 and Daniel 11:36-40 speak of the use of animal transportation. Such a thing simply is not done today, and it will take quite a while to return to using animal transportation in military operations. It speaks of a loss of technology on a wide scale.

Here's something for you to consider. If technology is to take a back seat, how will the Anti-Christ implement the Mark of the Beast? Most believe the Mark will involve a RFID chip. You could say that's speculation, which it is. However there's no other means that I can think of which the AC could control and track what a person buys, sells, or trades in a "cashless" society without modern technology. In fact only thru modern technology could one man control the entire world, that could not have been accomplished in any other time than now.

[OBXBob]

Hello SwordofGideon,

You wrote:

Here's something for you to consider. If technology is to take a back seat, how will the Anti-Christ implement the Mark of the Beast? Most believe the Mark will involve a RFID chip. You could say that's speculation, which it is. However there's no other means that I can think of which the AC could control and track what a person buys, sells, or trades in a "cashless" society without modern technology. In fact only thru modern technology could one man control the entire world, that could not have been accomplished in any other time than now.

Here is another passage that seems to indicate at least deep into the 70th week, technology will need to be at our disposal. Interestingly, many thought the following passage was impossible before the advent of TV and communications satellites:

Revelation 11:
8. Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9. For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.
10. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.


At least up to this point in time, it appears there have been no global EMP detonations around the earth.

Now, on the other hand, I find this passage in Revelation 18 most-interesting:

Revelation 18:
19. The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath.
20. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

The visions of man's modes of transportation in the future would have been difficult to explain, but the description of the depth of the blood, rising as high as the horses' bridles, seems to indicate horses might be present.

Of course, this is not to say that there could be EMP pulses just before the Battle of Armageddon was to begin, and those on the side who launched the EMP attack would have known to be prepared with horses since their vehicles would have been likely rendered powerless, as well, or by the other size's return-EMP strike.

While I don't agree with many of ThomasDGW's arguments as to why Jesus' return could be another century away, I do believe there is a chance that Jesus' return might not happen in our lifetimes. Most generations have thought theirs will be the one, although in no one generation have the potential puzzle pieces been put together so quickly.

While I find the ENPI most-interesting, and worthy of our close watching because it's the first time (I'm aware of) that the opening portion of Daniel 9:27 has been met with this 7-year agreement signed by Israel that strengthens another agreement, we will not know whether it is 'THE' 7-year agreement until sometime in the mid-2010 timeframe. If that time comes and goes with no AoD, then I have to assume the ENPI was not 'THE' one.

Aside from the ENPI, and aside from so many puzzle pieces seeming to be falling into place at breakneck speed, one of the reasons I think mankind's ruling of the earth is coming to an end is actually not directly mentioned in the Bible, but it is an evaluation of human nature from a 30K foot view.

Since the development of the atomic bomb, most countries who possess this weapon have been somewhat 'level-headed' in that they knew if they used the weapon against another country who possessed the same, they'd be wiped out themselves within hours of their initial attack. Definitely a nice balance of power! However, we now know that countries like N.Korea, Pakistan, India, possess the weapons. We find ourselves in a situation where at the very least, Iran is known to be arming terrorist organizations against Israel and the U.S. in Iraq. We also know that Iran's President wants desperately to usher in a time of world-wide chaos to bring forth the 12th Imam, and most of the world fears they are about to acquire the capability to develop their own nuclear weapons. While the world is pressuring Israel like no time in history to agree to anything and everything the Palestinians want...so the world (not necessarily Israel) can hopefully have world peace, Iran's goal is diametrically opposed. Knowing human nature, is it likely the world will continue another 100 years without a terrorist organization, or Iran, trying to detonate an atomic bomb in Israel? I don't think so. The views of terrorist Islamic nations are not going to be stopped by ANY amount of negotiation by the West. They know who Israel is. And they vow to destroy Israel. Period. Mankind has shown that it will use any new weapon in attacking its enemy. And Israel is dealing with an enemy who, if it acquires nuclear weapons, believes it would be the utmost honor to die in trying trying to annihilate Israel...and to receive great rewards in Heaven. Countries in the past who have acquired nuclear weapons have not had this mindset. They have not had such a deep-rooted hatred toward Israel, and they do not welcome nuclear retaliation. No, I don't think Israel's enemies will go another 100 years without gaining access to nuclear weapons and using them if they get a chance.

Now, back to the scriptures, we see:

Zechariah 12:
2. "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.
3. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.


Who would have thought there would come a day when the U.S. would not stand on Israel's side, or perhaps not be 'able' to do so? In the past few weeks alone, I've seen for the first time in my life there being serious talk of confrontation between the U.S. and Israel. The U.S. has made it very clear it will pressure Israel into going back to its pre-67 borders, splitting Jerusalem, and also allowing Iran-funded terrorist organizations to 'safely' operate that-much-closer to Israel. Again, just looking at human nature, I don't think Israel could survive another 100 years the way events are playing out against Her. We know Israel will not be totally annihilated again, but the events on the ground are looking worse than they ever have...like a volcano ready to erupt. And I don't see (looking at human nature) how this volcano can last another 100 years...

YBIC,

Bob

[smackbucket]

We know Israel will not be totally annihilated again,

Do we know that? It certainly seems that way, but does scripture demand it? Why couldn't history repeat itself like it already has? I don't think the Jews will again lose their land and be sent wandering, but I don't know that we can rule it out as an impossibility. Am I missing something?

[mark s]

Isaiah 11:6-11
(6) And the wolf shall live with the lamb; and the leopard shall lie with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little boy shall lead them.
(7) The cow and the bear shall feed, their young shall lie together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
(8) And the infant shall play on the hole of the asp; yea, the weaned child shall put his hand on the viper's den.
(9) They shall not do evil, nor destroy in all My holy mountain. For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of YHWH, as the waters cover the sea.
(10) And it shall be in that day, the Root of Jesse stands as a banner of peoples; nations shall seek to Him; and His resting place shall be glory.
(11) And it shall be in that day, the Lord shall again set His hand, the second time, to recover the remnant of His people that remains, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Ethiopia, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the coasts of the sea.

It will be in the millennium that the Lord will gather Israel back to their land the second time. The first was after the Babylonian captivity.

How you view their presence in the land now will determine whether you think they can be driven out again. If you see their presence now as the beginning of the regathering, then this is the second and final time. If you see their presence now as historically anomalous, with the actual regathering occurring at Jesus' return, then you could see them coming and going multiple times until that final regathering.

My understanding is that since eschatological prophecies presuppose Israel's existence as a populated nation, and that for centuries Israel did not exist as a nation, and now does, that Israel's current existence is the beginning of the regathering foretold in Scripture, which will be made complete when Jesus returns.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[OBXBob]

Hi smackbucket,

Great question!

Do we know that? It certainly seems that way, but does scripture demand it? Why couldn't history repeat itself like it already has? I don't think the Jews will again lose their land and be sent wandering, but I don't know that we can rule it out as an impossibility. Am I missing something?

Actually, we are told this:

Isaiah 11: 11. In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

Here are just a few of the verses that speak of the 2nd regathering...

Ezekiel 37

1. The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones.
2. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry.
3. He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" I said, "O Sovereign LORD, you alone know."
4. Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, `Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5. This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life.
6. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'"
7. So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
9. Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'"
10. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army.
11. Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, `Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.'
12. Therefore prophesy and say to them: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.
13. Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.
14. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.'"
15. The word of the LORD came to me:
16. "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, `Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, `Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.'
17. Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
18. "When your countrymen ask you, `Won't you tell us what you mean by this?'
19. say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph--which is in Ephraim's hand--and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.'
20. Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on
21. and say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.
22. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.
23. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
24. "`My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.
25. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever.
26. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever.
27. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
28. Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.'"

Ezekiel 38:8. After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

Ezekiel 39:27. When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will show myself holy through them in the sight of many nations.
28. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind.

Who is to say Israel will be wiped out, totally annihilated, and in the year 4010, for example, they are brought back to their land a 3rd time? Or perhaps a 4th time in 6010? And so on, and so on?

Isaiah 1:11 tells us this cycle will not continue, and it will only happen twice! The first scattering among the nations was done by the Babylonians, and the 2nd scattering took nearly 2,000 years for them to return as a nation on May 14, 1948. There will not be a 3-Peat!

YBIC,

Bob

[OBXBob]

Hi Mark!

I just saw your post after I'd posted my reply. I see we both quoted Isaiah 11:11!

You wrote:

How you view their presence in the land now will determine whether you think they can be driven out again. If you see their presence now as the beginning of the regathering, then this is the second and final time. If you see their presence now as historically anomalous, with the actual regathering occurring at Jesus' return, they you could see them coming and going multiple times until that final regathering.

My understanding is that since eschatological prophecies presuppose Israel's existence as a populated nation, and that for centuries Israel did not exist as a nation, and now does, that Israel's current existence is the beginning of the regathering foretold in Scripture, which will be made complete when Jesus returns.

In my reply above, I also quoted other scriptures which seem to indicate that this regathering had begun when Israel became a new nation and inhabited its land again...that which had been long been desolate: (Ezekiel 38:8)...desolate for around 2,000 years! Ezekiel 38 seems to show the order of things as they will occur...1) First, the people will return to Israel, and 2) after some time, they will again come to recognize God. But the return to their land must come first!

YBIC,

Bob

[mark s]

Hi Bob,

Yes, I agree, Ezekiel (esp. the vision of dry bones) does seem to me to point to Israel's return to occur in stages.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[smackbucket]

Oooh, thanks Bob! The word "second" does make it pretty clear, doesn't it! I like clarity...even if I miss it the first time. :)

[OBXBob]

Hi smackbucket,

I'd never really caught the significance of the word 'second' either after all the times I'd read that passage, until I was studying Isaiah a couple of years ago.

YBIC,

Bob

[kirthril]

I am very suprised only one person mentioned the passage of the Fig tree. That is the key to understanding all this.

Christ will not come in 100years. Jesus says himself, via the parable of the fig tree, that the Generation that witnesses Israel begin to blossom will not pass away before all these things be fulfilled.

Israel restored -1948
Jerusalem capital - 1967
present day 2009

yrs since restoration - 61
yrs since capital - 42

Avg human lifespan in developed countries ~ 70-85yrs

Going by avg human lifespan, The earliest possible date for his return is 3.5yrs from now, the latest possible date is 2033. If you wanna go by the date its capital was established then its 2052. If you wanna go by the longest lifespan possible (120yrs) then its 2068.... (but its soooooo rare for someone to live past 100)

My friends, this is the baby boomer generation, those born in the 1940's and 1950's. This generation will still be alive when Jesus returns. They are all hitting retirement age now.

There is no way that Jesus is still 100+ yrs away. With how fast things are going towards world gov't, world currency, world economic regulation, the growing enigma of the AoC etc... i dont even think 15 years is possible.

[Salty Skipper]

I am very suprised only one person mentioned the passage of the Fig tree. That is the key to understanding all this.

Christ will not come in 100years. Jesus says himself, via the parable of the fig tree, that the Generation that witnesses Israel begin to blossom will not pass away before all these things be fulfilled.

Israel restored -1948
Jerusalem capital - 1967
present day 2009

yrs since restoration - 61
yrs since capital - 42

Avg human lifespan in developed countries ~ 70-85yrs

Going by avg human lifespan, The earliest possible date for his return is 3.5yrs from now, the latest possible date is 2033. If you wanna go by the date its capital was established then its 2052. If you wanna go by the longest lifespan possible (120yrs) then its 2068.... (but its soooooo rare for someone to live past 100)

My friends, this is the baby boomer generation, those born in the 1940's and 1950's. This generation will still be alive when Jesus returns. They are all hitting retirement age now.

There is no way that Jesus is still 100+ yrs away. With how fast things are going towards world gov't, world currency, world economic regulation, the growing enigma of the AoC etc... i dont even think 15 years is possible.

Agreed.

[OBXBob]

Hi Kirthril,

You wrote:

I am very surprised only one person mentioned the passage of the Fig tree. That is the key to understanding all this.

Christ will not come in 100years. Jesus says himself, via the parable of the fig tree, that the Generation that witnesses Israel begin to blossom will not pass away before all these things be fulfilled.

I never mentioned this parable since this in itself is a topic for debate!

Matthew 24:32. "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
33. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
34. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Is verse 33 to apply to verse 34? Or is verse 34 saying, just as one knows that when they see twigs get tender and its leaves come out...that the SEASON of summer is near? This verse is saying that when A,B, etc. events are seen, all together, THEN you are able to recognize the SEASON. If one assumes that verse 34 ONLY applies to the the things in the parable of verse 33, then yes, this will mean that those in the generation that were alive in 1948 will see Jesus return. However, IMO, this is not what this verse is saying. It appears that verse 34 is referring to all the things being those things that happened earlier in this chapter, UP TO the end of verse 32. Nowhere in Matthew 24 is the rebirth of Israel referenced as being one of the events to know recognize the season. While I believe that Jesus may very well return in our life times, I cannot support this idea with verse 33 and 34 as an island unto itself, although at one time I did think this. I'd long heard the argument, and it sounded plausible, since Israel is referred to in other places as the fig tree. However, since the item in the parable is not listed among the MANY other events that will take place, I have to assume this the fig tree is to be used only as a subject of a parable, due to its context /surrounding text.

YBIC,

Bob

[smackbucket]

Hi Kirthril,

You wrote:

I am very surprised only one person mentioned the passage of the Fig tree. That is the key to understanding all this.

Christ will not come in 100years. Jesus says himself, via the parable of the fig tree, that the Generation that witnesses Israel begin to blossom will not pass away before all these things be fulfilled.

I never mentioned this parable since this in itself is a topic for debate!

Matthew 24:32. "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.
33. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
34. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Is verse 33 to apply to verse 34? Or is verse 34 saying, just as one knows that when they see twigs get tender and its leaves come out...that the SEASON of summer is near? This verse is saying that when A,B, etc. events are seen, all together, THEN you are able to recognize the SEASON. If one assumes that verse 34 ONLY applies to the the things in the parable of verse 33, then yes, this will mean that those in the generation that were alive in 1948 will see Jesus return. However, IMO, this is not what this verse is saying. It appears that verse 34 is referring to all the things being those things that happened earlier in this chapter, UP TO the end of verse 32. Nowhere in Matthew 24 is the rebirth of Israel referenced as being one of the events to know recognize the season. While I believe that Jesus may very well return in our life times, I cannot support this idea with verse 33 and 34, although at one time I did think this. I'd long heard the argument, and it sounded plausible, since Israel is referred to in other places as the fig tree. However, since the item in the parable is not listed among the MANY other events that will take place, I have to assume this the fig tree is to be used only as a subject of a parable, due to its context and surrounding text.

YBIC,

Bob

It's about time someone here sees the fig tree issue!!! I get so tired of everyone saying He MUST come back due to their misinterpretation of the passage.

[kirthril]

When you see these things happen:

all the signals of the end, earthquakes, famines, disease, the falling away, wars, rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, rise of unlawfulness, when good is called evil, and evil is called good, rise of false teachers, restoration of Israel as a blossoming nation being the biggest one (read Eze 36+37 to see how Israel grows/blossoms)....

This generation will not pass away till all these things happen:

With the 1st sign of the end being the restoration of Israel in 1948 the other signs would start and build up like birth pangs hence thereafter. Thus the generation that witnessed Israels rebirth is INCLUDED in this prophecy. They are the 1st ones to witness just one of the many birth pangs that were about to come.

When its leaves get tender you know summer is near, likewse when you see these things happen know that i am near:

Just as spring (when leaves get tender) leads into summer, these birth pangs which began in 1948, will lead to the 2nd coming. End times prophecy could not have begun untill Israel was a blossoming nation once again.

The mere fact that Israel is a green Island in a sea of arid dryness should be defining proof that the word of God holds true.
................

All of these signs are hitting us full force in the face EVERY SINGLE DAY!! WE ARE THAT GENERATION!
i am only 23, born in 1985, so even if its my generation that would still put the 2nd coming at its latest in 2090. But these signs began before my generation, It began with the baby boomers.

[OBXBob]

Hello kirthril,

You wrote:

The mere fact that Israel is a green Island in a sea of arid dryness should be defining proof that the word of God holds true.

You wrote:

When you see these things happen:

all the signals of the end, earthquakes, famines, disease, the falling away, wars, rumors of wars, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, rise of unlawfulness, when good is called evil, and evil is called good, rise of false teachers, restoration of Israel as a blossoming nation being the biggest one (read Eze 36+37 to see how Israel grows/blossoms)....

This generation will not pass away till all these things happen:

With the 1st sign of the end being the restoration of Israel in 1948 the other signs would start and build up like birth pangs hence thereafter. Thus the generation that witnessed Israels rebirth is INCLUDED in this prophecy. They are the 1st ones to witness just one of the many birth pangs that were about to come.

" restoration of Israel as a blossoming nation being the biggest one (read Eze 36+37 to see how Israel grows/blossoms)...." is not referenced by Jesus in Matthew 24. One must add this to the list in order to say it is an event that points to Jesus' return. The parable, in its context, appears to have been meant as an example, not an item in the list of things that might happen! The fig tree was obviously an important tree in the life of an Israeli. Had Jesus have said, "Just as the apple ripens on the tree, you know that autumn is near.", the meaning of what Jesus said would not have changed. He would not have been talking about adding the ripening of apples to the list of events; it would have simply meant that when one sees a natural event that occurs only at a given season of the year, similarly, the season of his return will be pointed to by the list of events.

YBIC,

Bob

[smackbucket]

Thus the generation that witnessed Israels rebirth is INCLUDED in this prophecy.

It's included in the Olivet Discourse? Scripture please.

Just as spring (when leaves get tender) leads into summer, these birth pangs which began in 1948, will lead to the 2nd coming

The birth pains began in 1948? Scripture please.

The mere fact that Israel is a green Island in a sea of arid dryness should be defining proof that the word of God holds true.

Yes, but the fact that they are there is not proof that He will return during the generation of 1948.

[smackbucket]

The fig tree was obviously an important tree in the life of an Israeli. Had Jesus have said, "Just as the apple ripens on the tree, you know that autumn is near.", the meaning of what Jesus said would not have changed. He would not have been talking about adding the ripening of apples to the list of events; it would have simply meant that when one sees a natural event that occurs only at a given season of the year, similarly, the season of his return will be pointed to by the list of events.

YBIC,

Bob

Yes! Luke proves that He is truly speaking of trees in general and not likening Israel to a fig tree.

"Behold the fig tree and ALL the trees..." Luke 21:29 This includes apple trees!

[kirthril]

Bob:
You are right, he does not mention Israel directly by name, but remember...

Even if there were earthquakes, famine, pestilence, wars, rumors of wars and the vast number of birth pangs occuring right now.. none of that would matter if Israel was not a nation. The ultimate sign of the end is Israel being present. These signs mean nothing if Israel is not present.

So its not that im going out on a limb to stick something in thats not supposed to be there. It is more like fitting together pieces of a large puzzle in which one pice cannot be placed untill another is placed before it. Israel is that 1st piece that we were told to look for.

smackbucket:
Lol at your Username

1. Pardon me, what is this olivet discourse?? As for where in scripture, read what i just said to bob above and then reread Matt 24. The Generation that sees these signs will not pass away before prophecy is fulfilled. These signs would be meaningless if Israel was not present. Thus the Generation that saw Israel restored is the 1st generation of the generations that will witness the 2nd coming. They saw the 1st sign that lead to and begun the other signs.

2. Yes the birth pangs began in 1948. Remember the signs of the end mean nothing if Israel is not present. Israel was the 1st sign. Now that Israel is a nation, the other signs will come and come faster and faster. None of this could have happened w/o Israel here. Thus the begining of the pangs began when the UN got rid of palestine and put in Israel.

[Salty Skipper]

There are other prophecies too...the Valley of dry bones in Ezekiel right before Ezekiel 38/39, which I believe to be armegeddon. There are so many things already taking place that it just can't be ignored. The 1st beast in Revelation 13 is complete and awating the 'mouth' to speak up. We're watching the second beast rising...Israel has been regathered...so on and so on and so on...

[smackbucket]

smackbucket:
Lol at your Username

How dare you laugh AT my name! :)

Pardon me, what is this olivet discourse??

It's Matt 24. Jesus' discourse on the Mount of Olives.

As for where in scripture, read what i just said to bob above and then reread Matt 24. The Generation that sees these signs will not pass away before prophecy is fulfilled. These signs would be meaningless if Israel was not present. Thus the Generation that saw Israel restored is the 1st generation of the generations that will witness the 2nd coming. They saw the 1st sign that lead to and begun the other signs.

2. Yes the birth pangs began in 1948. Remember the signs of the end mean nothing if Israel is not present. Israel was the 1st sign. Now that Israel is a nation, the other signs will come and come faster and faster. None of this could have happened w/o Israel here. Thus the begining of the pangs began when the UN got rid of palestine and put in Israel.

This is all speculation and assumption. You're assuming the birth pains began in 1948 just because "they would mean nothing" if Israel wasn't in existence. Yet a very good case can be made that the birth pains of Matt 24 began in 70ad. Another very good case can be made that the birth pains don't begin until the first seal, and correspond with the first four seals. I've spent enough time on each issues to know that it's not clear cut, and that we shouldn't base any conclusions with the birth pains as a foundations for timing—especially when it comes to telling people that Jesus WILL come back in our generation. It's not wise.

[shampoo]

As Bob mentioned, Daniel gives a timeframe to watch for...

While I find the ENPI most-interesting, and worthy of our close watching because it's the first time (I'm aware of) that the opening portion of Daniel 9:27 has been met with this 7-year agreement signed by Israel that strengthens another agreement, we will not know whether it is 'THE' 7-year agreement until sometime in the mid-2010 timeframe. If that time comes and goes with no AoD, then I have to assume the ENPI was not 'THE' one.

[Salty Skipper]

As Bob mentioned, Daniel gives a timeframe to watch for...

While I find the ENPI most-interesting, and worthy of our close watching because it's the first time (I'm aware of) that the opening portion of Daniel 9:27 has been met with this 7-year agreement signed by Israel that strengthens another agreement, we will not know whether it is 'THE' 7-year agreement until sometime in the mid-2010 timeframe. If that time comes and goes with no AoD, then I have to assume the ENPI was not 'THE' one.

Ditto!

[OBXBob]

Hi kirthril,

You wrote:

You are right, he does not mention Israel directly by name, but remember...

Even if there were earthquakes, famine, pestilence, wars, rumors of wars and the vast number of birth pangs occuring right now.. none of that would matter if Israel was not a nation. The ultimate sign of the end is Israel being present. These signs mean nothing if Israel is not present.

I agree with you that Israel must be present and must be back in Her land! But the scriptures do not tie this down to being a prerequisite for this to happen in one generation after May 14, 1948. It may very well to do so, if the ENPI is 'THE' 7-year agreement; however, Matthew 24:32 and 33 do not state this, IMO.

Here's a what-if scenario...what if Iran's people overthrow their President. What if they were to become a pro-Western nation again? What if there ended up being 30...50...or 100 years of peace before more earthquakes, more famine, more pestilence, more wars, and more rumors of war were to come? And this time, Israel is endangered? Matthew 24 would still be fulfilled....just as Jesus said it would, and Israel would of course be a nation, albeit older than one generation past 1948.

As I said in my original post, I think there are way too many things going on in the world right now for things to continue another 100 years with 'world' governments...the way they are today. I think Jesus is returning, and very soon! But I'm basing this on geopolitical events that appear to be falling into place. If something changes those geopolitical events, then I'd have to review my opinion. And as much as I'd like to think that Matthew 24:32 and 33 places a time limit on His return (as I used to think), I no longer think this is an accurate interpretation. I realized that personally, I was having to insert meaning and words into Matthew 24 which really weren't there. I wanted to insert other signs, such as Israel becoming a nation, because that's the only one of the signs that we know has a concrete date attached to it. But to do so (in my own mind) was adding to the scriptures, and as such, I somewhat reluctantly had to take that 'sign' off the long list of events in Matthew 24 that would be accomplished within a generation. Sadly, I realized that by removing this as an event, it no longer ties down to within X number of years the time that Jesus would have to return. But it is still incredible to see SO MANY OTHER prophecies be fulfilled by May 14, 1948!

With all this said, without Matthew 24:32 and 33, unless geopolitical events make a 180 turn...and quickly, I believe Jesus' return will be very, very soon!

YBIC,

Bob

[Jericho]

I agree with you OBXBob. I think we have to look at where we are right now and then look at the conditions that are present in the last days.

-Israel has to be a nation again - Check.
-A world government has to be in place - We are quickly moving in that direction.
-A cashless money system - Everything is almost completely digital now.
-A one world religion - Not quiet there yet but we have two contenders, Interfaithism and Islam.
-Technology must be available for a cashless society, Implement the Mark, and for the world too see the two witnesses - Check
-A Jewish temple must be built - Not yet but everything's in place to get it up and going very quickly once the go ahead is given.

If I were too look at just those facts I would say we are very close!

[savedbygrace]

Its only speculation that a world government and a world religion must be in place before Jesus comes back. Its possible the AC and the false prophet will force people to worship him and to take the mark, but does this mean the entire world is already under the same religion or government? If the entire world were under a unanimous government/religion, then who would the AC be fighting against in Daniel 11 at the time of the end?

And I would add to your checklist things like:

*earthquakes in various places- check
*famines- check
*pestilences (disease)- check
*wars and rumours of wars- check
*nation rise against nation-check
*false Christs and false teachers abound- check
*changes in the earth, wind and the waves-check
*increase in wickedness- check
*love of many growing cold- check
*Christians being persecuted and put to death- check
*2 Timothy 3:2-5: "People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power." - CHECK, CHECK, CHECK, CHECK, CHECK, CHECK

[smackbucket]

Its only speculation that a world government and a world religion must be in place before Jesus comes back. Its possible the AC and the false prophet will force people to worship him and to take the mark, but does this mean the entire world is already under the same religion or government? If the entire world were under a unanimous government/religion, then who would the AC be fighting against in Daniel 11 at the time of the end?

And I would add to your checklist things like:

*earthquakes in various places- check
*famines- check
*pestilences (disease)- check
*wars and rumours of wars- check
*nation rise against nation-check
*false Christs and false teachers abound- check
*changes in the earth, wind and the waves-check
*increase in wickedness- check
*love of many growing cold- check
*Christians being persecuted and put to death- check
*2 Timothy 3:2-5: "People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5having a form of godliness but denying its power." - CHECK, CHECK, CHECK, CHECK, CHECK, CHECK

To play devil's advocate, all those things were very prominent before 1948. I think the things mentioned in 2 Timothy will get much worse than they are now.

[OBXBob]

Until we see the AoD, it will be inconclusive whether we're in the last half of the 70th week.

With that said, should nuclear war develop, along with the likely accompanying famine and disease, it could be a good indication the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th seals have been opened.

Revelation 6:

3. When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!"
4. Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
5. When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand.
6. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!"
7. When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!"
8. I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Some read this as 1/4 of earth's 6B or so population will be killed...nothing like the world has ever seen before. This is one of the reasons I think the seals (at least the 2nd seal) will not be opened until after the AoD...the Great Tribulation:

Matthew 24: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

YBIC,

Bob

[watching]

What if there is no seven year agreement because Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:27? And what if there is no abomination of desolation until 45 days before "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days?"

Daniel 9:27 (King James Version)

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 12:11-13 (King James Version)

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.