Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Ready1 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:26 am

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Mat 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.


Mar 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
Mar 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mar 10:10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.


Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
Just observing.

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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby savedbygrace on Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:40 am

So don't you have any commentary to add? I can read my own bible if all I want is scriptures. What are you trying to say?
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Ready1 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:27 pm

If I told you what I thought, you would probably disagree... :grin: :grin: :grin: But the scriptures speak pretty well for themselves when you see them all together. :grin:

I will say this much, I have always seen the scenarios in Matthew as Jesus speaking about his own parents. His mother was his father's espoused wife. Joseph knew he was not the father, so he was free to break it off. He could have had her stoned, but the Scripture says that "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily." That's how I see the 'fornication clause'.

Like I say the rest speak pretty loudly for themselves... :grin: (See I should have just kept my mouth shut and let the scriptures do the talking.)
Just observing.

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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:46 pm

Ready1 wrote:If I told you what I thought, you would probably disagree... But the scriptures speak pretty well for themselves when you see them all together.


see my response after the next quote....

I will say this much, I have always seen the scenarios in Matthew as Jesus speaking about his own parents. His mother was his father's espoused wife. Joseph knew he was not the father, so he was free to break it off. He could have had her stoned, but the Scripture says that "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily." That's how I see the 'fornication clause'.


But Joseph would have been mistaken, wouldn't he? You see, that's the issue with the adultery clause; one does not always witness an adultery. Most times, as it was with Joseph, it will be an assumption or guess at best unless expressly confessed or one is caught in the act.

Now, regarding your first statement about "seeing them all together." This is one of the problems with "plain reading" of scriptures and in lining up several to make them fit our pre-conceived ideas without putting them in their appropriate context.

To clarify this, point....Joseph most likely would have put Mary away because he jumped to a natural conclusion. But even while he was considering putting her away, an angel set him straight about the truth. You conveniently left out the context of Joseph's thought and the resulting truth.

But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 1:20

Like I say the rest speak pretty loudly for themselves... (See I should have just kept my mouth shut and let the scriptures do the talking.)


The scriptures only speak for themselves when we use them in context, read them as they were intended for the audience by the speaker, and read them in harmony with the entire Word of God. A little common sense and logic doesn't hurt either imho.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Ready1 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:42 pm

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:



ITYS
Just observing.

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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby savedbygrace on Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:43 pm

Divorce is not the unforgivable sin. So lets not try and make it that way.
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Ready1 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:53 pm

The scriptures only speak for themselves when we use them in context, read them as they were intended for the audience by the speaker, and read them in harmony with the entire Word of God. A little common sense and logic doesn't hurt either imho.


I tried very hard to keep them in context. If there are some verses I left out which would change their meaning, then please advise me. I believe that the New Testament audience would include us. I attempt to read them in harmony with the entire Word of God. A little common sense never hurts, but it is also good to keep the scriptures themselves in mind. The only problem we get into is when we attempt to make scripture say other than what it says. I'm sure you would agree.

That's why I posted all the New Testament scriptures that I could find which dealt with this topic; so we could actually see what the scripture says when we look at five parts of someones opinion on Divorce and Remarriage.

:grin:
Just observing.

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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Ready1 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:54 pm

Divorce is not the unforgivable sin. So lets not try and make it that way.


All I did was post scripture.

:grin:
Just observing.

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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:11 pm

Ready1 wrote:That's why I posted all the New Testament scriptures that I could find which dealt with this topic; so we could actually see what the scripture says when we look at five parts of someones opinion on Divorce and Remarriage.


If you have read all 5 parts, have you found that the author does not look at scripture in it's context thus far?
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:02 pm

Ready1 wrote:I tried very hard to keep them in context. If there are some verses I left out which would change their meaning, then please advise me.


OK, Ready1. I so appreciate your willingness to look a little deeper into the context of the list of scriptures you posted. No one could ask for more. And while you are free to disagree with me, I share the context I see which does affect the meaning somewhat in my opinion.

Mat t 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


In this chapter of Matthew, we find some very profound statements from Jesus in teaching the crowds and the disciples. Look at a couple other than the one you mentioned:

Mat 5:13 "You are the salt of the earth.......

Mat 5:14 "You are the light of the world........

Mat 5:22.....and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.....

Mat 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you.........

Are we really salt? Are we actually light as we know it? If I call you a "fool" do you think I'm going to hell? Do you recommend anyone addicted to porn literally tear out his eye?

Right smack in the middle of the chapter, Jesus makes this bold statement:

"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the [b]scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

I'm asking you to consider the verses that follow that bold statement in light of Jesus admonition about the scribes and Pharisees.

Your next quoted scripture:

Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Mat 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.


Once again, this response from Jesus is directly issued to the Pharisees as you see in verse 3. Later when His disciples asked for clarification on this statement, Jesus changes the tone of the reply and speaks of eunuchs and "those who are able to accept it."

Your next scripture:

Mar 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
Mar 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mar 10:7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mar 10:10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
Mar 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.


Once again, this reply is directed to the Pharisees who came to test Jesus to see if they could put away their wives as was the practice "for any cause". Jesus reminds them of God's perfect design for marriage which was the a man to leave his parents and cleave to his wife.

You next scripture:

Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


Again, look at the previous verse to find who Jesus was addressing:

Luk 16:14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him.

I do not think we can ignore the fact that every time Jesus spoke about adultery and divorce, he was speaking to the Pharisees. It is in this context I believe we need to continue examining the topic, considering the references to the OT, the audience to whom these words were spoken, and how those hearing the words would have interpreted and understood them.

Then we need to ask why Jesus did not say one word about adultery or sin to the Samaritan woman at the well who had had 5 husbands.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:42 am

I do not think we can ignore the fact that every time Jesus spoke about adultery and divorce, he was speaking to the Pharisees. It is in this context I believe we need to continue examining the topic, considering the references to the OT, the audience to whom these words were spoken, and how those hearing the words would have interpreted and understood them.


Matthew 5:1-2
(1) Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him.
(2) And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

Matthew 5:31-32
(31) "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
(32) But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

This was not to the Pharisees. Yet Jesus upholds the same standard He did with them. He was consistent.

Then we need to ask why Jesus did not say one word about adultery or sin to the Samaritan woman at the well who had had 5 husbands.


2 Corinthians 5:18-19
(18) All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
(19) that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Notice that Jesus also didn’t say anything about the man she was living with, without benefit of marriage. Jesus was not here to condemn, but to save. There are numerous examples where Jesus addressed people in this fashion, not pointing out their sin. Its not what He was here for.

Should we say that by His silence He condoned what she had done? He acknowledged her 5 marriages, but didn’t express that she had done anything wrong, so that means it must be OK. Should that be our conclusion?

Does the same logic apply to the one she was currently with, whom she wasn’t married to? Should we think this is also condoned?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:47 am

I’d like to respond to some of the arguments against a straightforward interpretation and application of Jesus’ teachings regarding marriage and divorce as presented by David Servant in the chapter of his book which has been posted here.

Servant’s chapter starts on the right note, from Malachi, that God hates divorce, but then endeavors to go on to make the case that while God "hates divorce", He accepts whatever it is we want to do, and we can in reality have as many divorces and remarriages as we want to.

The one who steals should restore, the one who lies should tell the truth, but the one who divorces, well, they can simply continue in the direction they have chosen, or so it seems according to Servant.

He quotes the same passage from Matthew (19:3-6) that we all look at for answers to this question, but would have us to think that somehow Jesus didn’t really mean what He said because He was talking to the Pharisees.

Of course, Jesus wasn’t “just” talking to the Pharisees in Matthew 5, where He gave the same teaching, He was teaching His disciples, and the people in general.

David Servant, to substantiate his view, that we can somehow reinterpret Jesus’ words into pretty much the opposite of what He said, that you can divorce and re-marry, for any cause, and its OK in God’s eyes, Servant points us to the Old Testament, suggesting that we will somehow find Moses and Jesus to contradict each other, requiring us to conclude that “God’s Law changed”, or that we would then have to reinterpret one of them, that One being Jesus.

Servant begins well, with Genesis 2, and the command from Jesus, what God has joined together, man is not to separate.

But then Servant erroneously states, “from Adam until the giving of the Law of Moses to Israel around 1440 BC, the law of the conscience was all the revelation that God gave to anyone, the Israelites included, regarding divorce and remarriage.” I say “erroneously” because, even as Servant has just quoted, mankind had Adam’s words from the first marriage: “and they shall become one flesh.” Now, you may object, this was not “God’s revelation”. I would reply that these were the very words quoted by Jesus to answer this question. Jesus seemed to think they were OK.

Servant seems to think those words were lost to mankind until Moses wrote Genesis, but is that kind of argument from silence, in reality, pure supposition, appropriate to build a case on, especially when that case is designed to negate the plain teaching of Jesus Christ?

But Servant wants to make a case speculating about the consciences of those before the giving of the Law.

Now, even if we were to stipulate that man’s conscience in ages past was OK with divorce and remarriage for any reason, should we actually stipulate that the conscience of fallen man is an infallible guide? Personally, I don’t think so. In fact, the Bible tells us that the heart of man is deceitful, as are man’s lusts. I personally don’t think fallen man is to be trusted.

But even so, we can only speculate what fallen man’s conscience told them. We don’t actually have any idea. God, of course, had to destroy mankind as they had fallen so deeply into sin. Even if we were to grant Servant this particular argument, that people before the giving of the Law were OK with divorce and remarriage for any reason, the argument is, in reality, “whatever man thinks in his heart must be right.” I don’t think that’s a valid argument, especially when we’re talking about Jesus’ clear teaching on the subject being quite the opposite from what Servant promotes.

So then Servant’s argument really boils down to this: Jesus said that to marry after divorce for reasons other than sexual immorality is adultery, but its not really, because people before the giving of the Law probably did it, so it must really be OK.

David Servant’s next argument comes from Leviticus, the prohibition for a priest to marry a prostitute or divorced woman. While this prohibition clearly expresses God’s view, that His priests would be defiled by such a marriage, Servant would rather focus on the argument from silence, “God didn’t tell anyone else that they couldn’t, so it must be OK.”.

Now, we needn’t focus on whether or not its OK to marry a widow – Romans 7 makes very clear that marriage dissolved upon the death of one of the spouses.

Let’s grant Servant his argument from silence, that such marriages were permitted. Servant rightly points out that certain limits were imposed. The divorced woman couldn’t marry a priest. The twice divorced woman could not remarry her first husband.

Servant laid out the ground rules at the beginning of this chapter of his book:

If we find that what God said through Moses and what God said through Jesus are contradictory, we can be sure that either God's law changed or that we've misinterpreted something said by either Moses or Jesus.
http://www.shepherdserve.org/dmm/dmm_13.htm

Jesus answers this directly:

Matthew 19:6-9
(6) So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, let not man separate.
(7) They said to Him, Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put her away?
(8) He said to them, In view of your hardheartedness, Moses allowed you to put away your wives. But from the beginning it was not so.
(9) And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, if not for fornication, and shall marry another, that one commits adultery. And the one who marries her who was put away commits adultery.

This argument has been made, and answered, in Scripture, by Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus says, unequivocally, what God has joined together, let not man separate. They argued, basically, “Moses let them do it!” (so why should we listen to You?) Jesus responded that this was so, because of their hard hearts. But that’s not how God made it.

And then He clarified, exactly the same as in the Sermon on the Mount. “But I say to you, anyone who looks . . .” “I say to you, anyone who hates . . .” “I say to you, whoever divorces, other than for sexual immorality, and marries another . . .”

What Servant says “God mercifully offered”, Jesus says Moses “permitted, because of the hardness of their hearts”. Sounds to me like two very different things.

And there seems to be the presupposition in Servant’s argument that “God would never change His Law”. That if we could show that the Law permitted or forbid something, that something would always and forever be permitted or forbid.

But of course we know that’s not true. The dietary Law was changed. Dietary Law was actually changed several times. Adam and Eve ate only plants. Noah ate any animal he chose. Israel ate clean animals only. And Christians eat any animal. Ceremonial law was changed. Jesus expanded adultery to include the heart, murder to include the heart. Giving was changed from mandatory to voluntary. And the priesthood was expanded to every believer, as God’s original intent had been for all Israelites to be priests (Ex. 19:6).

Think about that for a moment. God said that the priest could not marry a divorced woman. God’s intent was that all Israelites would be priests, IF they kept His covenant. So what would you suppose that would have meant? That is, if we are to engage in such suppositions . . .

David Servant, as he summarizes his arguments, that while Jesus forbid divorce and remarriage for any cause, Moses permits it, repeats his paradigm:

So we are either misunderstanding Jesus or Moses, or God changed His law.
http://www.shepherdserve.org/dmm/dmm_13.htm

He states his own conclusion:

My suspicion is that we might be misinterpreting what Jesus taught, because it would seem strange that God would suddenly declare something to be morally sinful that was morally acceptable for fifteen hundred years under a Law that He gave to Israel.


I have the same difficulty that I had earlier. He takes an argument from silence that marriage and divorce was a “free-for-all”, or nearly so, and says that we should use this argument as sufficient cause to negate the clear, plain teaching of Jesus, without any real regard for Jesus’ acknowledgment that while Moses did in fact permit this, it wasn’t God’s original intent, and Jesus was now clarifying the way that it should be.

One thing Servant does not appear to address is the nature of progressive revelation. We see this in a number of topics in Scripture, that the earliest revelation of something was not always the most complete, but that as the centuries progressed, God gave fuller revelation of Himself, and His will.

God directly addresses the ramifications of this progressive revelation upon man’s culpability in Romans 5:

Romans 5:13 For sin was in the world until Law, but sin is not charged where there is no law;

God does not impute sin against mankind for those things that God has not given law against. So that until Moses, the only law was, “Don’t eat of the tree in the center of the garden." And this was the only law man was accountable for. However, men still died, because men sinned, being born spiritually dead – corrupted.

And so if God had not given specific law yet against divorce and remarriage for any cause, lives were still ruined, and new marriages formed that were not God’s intent for those people.

And once Jesus clarified this matter, why do we question it?

Servant teaches God’s forgiveness for divorce, and I don’t question that. God is a wonderfully forgiving God. But while God may forgive a sin, that doesn’t make that sin right, acceptable, approved, or profitable.

Servant writes:

God knows there is no need to add one more negative consequence to the many unavoidable negative consequences of divorce in hopes of motivating people to remain married. Telling people with troubled marriages that they better not divorce because they will not be permitted to ever remarry provides very little motivation for staying married. Even if he believes you, the prospect of a life of singleness compared to a life of continual marital misery sounds like heaven to the miserably-married person.
http://www.shepherdserve.org/dmm/dmm_13.htm

Is the Bible nothing more than a motivational seminar? Or does God tell us the truth about Himself, us, and His will for our lives? I don’t think Jesus was simply trying to motivate people when He gave His sermon on the mount, or any of His other teachings.

And the fact is, Servant is making a rather broad generalization. Who is he to say that the knowledge of God’s will, that marriage is “til death do us part”, no redo’s except for sexual immorality (and even then, forgiveness and reconciliation is the far better way), who is he to say that this doesn’t motivate people to try harder to work it out? To learn to love, and sacrifice?

I for one, can tell you with absolute certainty, because I am that man. I held back from the finalizing of my divorce because I understood the strength of God’s will in that regard – and God truly is a miracle worker. So many people never get the chance to see that particular miracle, having been told, its OK, God’s Ok with it, you can just move on, try again, and again, and again . . .

But all of the notwithstanding, Servant’s argument here is, “don’t tell people that if they divorce they can’t remarry, it won’t work anyway.” I suppose we should apply the same logic to the thief? Don’t tell the thief he’ll have to give it back, it won’t stop him from stealing . . .

But for the one who divorces for any cause, and wants to remarry, instead of reconcile to their spouse, or at the least, remain available to reconcile to their spouse, as Scripture teaches, its like telling the thief that they don’t have to give it back. Well, it was wrong for you to do, but no, there are no further consequences, you can just do what you want, keep what you’ve gained . . .

I think we should tell people the way it is, and encourage them to obey God, without trying to reduce Jesus’ clear teaching to our own pragmatic world view.

Servant sets up a false dichotomy between Paul/Moses and Jesus, saying that Paul agrees with Moses. As if Paul disagrees with Jesus. He’s still gunning for Jesus’ teaching, to make us think Jesus didn’t really mean what He said.

Now, in making his case that Paul taught divorce and remarriage for any cause, Servant quotes:

1 Corinthians 7:27-28
(27) Have you been bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Have you been released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.
(28) But if you also marry, you do not sin. And if the virgin marries, she does not sin. But such will have trouble in the flesh. But I am sparing you.

Servant claims that there is “no doubt that Paul was addressing divorced people” here. Does this mean, “divorced for any cause”? Is Servant advocating one rule for men, and the opposite rule for women?

1 Corinthians 7:10-11
(10) But I command the ones being married (not I, but the Lord), that a woman is not to be separated from her husband;
(11) but if indeed she is separated, remain unmarried, or be reconciled to the husband; and a husband not to leave his wife.

This wife is divorced, since she is called “unmarried”. She is to remain unmarried, or to be reconciled – remarried – to her husband. Note, he is still her husband, though she be called “unmarried”.

So what does it mean to be “released” from a wife?

1 Corinthians 7:15
(15) But if the unbelieving one separates, let them be separated; the brother or the sister is not in bondage in such matters; but God has called us in peace.

In verses 10 and 11, and in verse 15, “separated” is used of divorce, not “released” (Greek – Loosed).

(27) Have you been bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Have you been released from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

Paul speaks of the woman bound to her husband in Romans 7. Bound, that is, until the death of her husband, at when time she is set free from the law of marriage. Having just read in the previous verses that the wife who “separates” – divorces – from her husband is told to remain unmarried, is Paul really now telling husbands having divorced from their wives that they are free to remarry if they please?

Or is Paul giving teachings directed at wives, then at husbands, applicable to both, about two different things?

If you do divorce, remain available to reconcile with your spouse.

Only certain things will actually release you from your marriage – your spouse’s death, or infidelity, such as your partner remarrying. Don’t be hoping for these. God wants our hearts towards our spouses. And even if these occur, don’t just get right out there seeking a new spouse. But if you do marry, you have not sinned. That is, you who were actually released from your marriage bond.

So while Servant claims it to be so, Paul did not in fact authorize “divorce and remarriage for any reason.” And concerning the departure of the unbelieving spouse, the approval to remarry is not in fact clearly stated.

But once again, Servant comes back to Jesus’ teaching, saying we’ve misinterpreted it. Personally, I’d say David Servant has misinterpreted God’s intent for marriage. God wants it to last a lifetime, and severely limits any exceptions to this.

If we include the departure of the unbeliever as acceptable reason, again, in the spirit of progressive revelation, we can cite three possible reasons for an allowable second marriage: the death of a spouse, infidelity, and the departure of an unbeliever, with this third being questionable at best.

I see no reason why God would not likewise want for us to remain ready to reconcile to the unbeliever who becomes reborn, and wishes to return. The “one flesh bond” is just as real between a believer and unbeliever as it is between two believers, or two unbelievers.

Its interesting to me that in Servant’s sections he titles “The Solution”, what he really does is present a number of hypothetical circumstances to demonstrate the impracticality of of actually applying Jesus’ teaching on marriage and divorce.

As if to say . . . We can’t really do what He said anyway, so He couldn’t have meant it that way, right?

Surely the reason Jesus said they were "committing adultery" rather than simply saying that what they were doing was wrong is because He wanted them to see that divorce for any cause and subsequent remarriage is really no different than adultery, something they claimed to never do.

http://www.shepherdserve.org/dmm/dmm_13.htm

So then this is the real center of his argument. Jesus said that to divorce and remarry, except for the cause of sexual immorality, was adultery. But He really only meant the Pharisees. He didn’t mean us.

What would happen if we looked at the rest of the Bible that way? “Oh, it only applies to someone else!”

Servant presents a comparison between two men, one whose divorce and remarriage is presented as obviously wrong, and one that seems innocent and good. And he asks, does it seem that the second man sinned? “There is a way that seems right unto man, but the end thereof . . .”

The fact it, you can have a man who covets his neighbor’s car, and one day steals it. You can have a man who has a sick child, in need of medicine, so he steals it. Both have stolen. Both are wrong. Both have to make restitution. Both need God’s forgiveness.

It just might be, when you look at Scriptures, that a divorced person, with the exceptions noted, is not actually free to remarry.

As Servant comes to the Sermon on the Mount, he presents Jesus not as expressing God’s will, rules, and value system, but rather “helping them to see the truth about divorce”. Well, the truth about divorce is that divorce and remarriage outside of the specific exception named is adultery.

What Servant seems to overlook is that while Jesus is giving the true meaning of murder, that even hatred is the same as murder, as He is giving the true meaning of purity, that even looking to lust is adultery, He likewise gives the true meaning of fidelity, that even though you be married, if you divorced for reasons other then sexual immorality, its still adultery.

Servant attempts to ridicule this position by comparing it to “plucking out one’s eye.” Without going into how these two teachings – divorce/remarriage/adultery, and plucking out the eye – are different, I’ll just point to the device.

OK, enough is enough. Servant continues in the same manner, then summarizes, saying, in essence,

Jesus intended to show the Pharisees that when they divorced and remarried outside of reasons of sexual immorality it was, in reality, adultery. But Jesus didn’t mean that when you divorce and remarry for reasons outside of sexual immorality it is, in reality, adultery.

Wouldn’t this be a double standard?

Just a closing thought from me. God forgives sin. Sometimes we tangle up our lives so much that the results of our sins remain, and we just have to go on. Think of the doctor who stole to put himself through medical school. Does God want him to stop being a doctor? God certainly wants him to repent, restore if possible, and not steal anymore.

The one who remarries, even though they were not truly released from their spouse, has nonetheless made a new covenant, and God demonstrates through the Gibeonites that even a covenant made against God’s instructions, that is otherwise honorable, is still a covenant, and must be kept.

But unless we are truly submitted to God, we may miss what God really wants to do - the big miracle - and might choose for ourselves something that God does not want for us.

Even if we do, we have a gracious and loving Father, Who will continue to work in our lives. If you are divorced, and God desires that you remarry, you will be released to remarry with a clear conscience, having held true to His Word. At least, that's my belief.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby daffodyllady on Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:50 pm

It is interesting to me, a divorced woman, that there are such strong opinions within Christian circles, concerning this.

This is one of the very few topics that will get people all up in arms very quickly.

Why? Because we are generally into self-protection here.

Many many people are divorced and remarried. They have fought with a still small voice internally, telling them it is wrong. The voice has gone silent in some. They think they have found peace by learning what the Bible says.

All they have done is to drown out the inner voice of God by fighting against it.

I know how it goes. I have been there. I tried to drown it out. I am divorced.

Praise God, he has had mercy on me, and rescued me from the very edge of grieving the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures are clear. They all agree. They do not need each other to explain each other. And if you are not looking for loopholes, you will not find any.

I have said all I will say on this topic.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:05 pm

daffodyllady wrote:It is interesting to me, a divorced woman, that there are such strong opinions within Christian circles, concerning this.

This is one of the very few topics that will get people all up in arms very quickly.


It's one that has been very neglected imho. Not examined nearly as thoroughly as OSAS, rapture timing, apostasies, the antichrist, homosexuality, Sabbath-keeping, etc. It's a valid scriptural study.

Why? Because we are generally into self-protection here.


Again, why is a valid study of God's Word viewed as self-protection or a loophole.

The scriptures are clear. They all agree.


Evidently the way they are clear to some, they are equally clear to others in a different interpretation. That's the beauty of discussing them to glean from one another's insights just as we do with any other topic in the Word.

I've received a number of pm's from members who feel very differently than others regarding the subject of divorce; hence I do see value in examining it carefuly and offering different perspectives in hopes that some will benefit from the study. Several have said they appreciate the study and so for those I am happy to provide it . I also don't have anything to gain or lose by studying any topic in the Word, but I don't think it's healthy for Christians to ever carry guilt for a past sin that's covered by the blood of the cross. So if a careful, dilligent study of scripture can alleviate a false sense and continual guilt, I think it's a very worthwhile endeavor.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Ready1 on Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:If you have read all 5 parts, have you found that the author does not look at scripture in it's context thus far?


When you boil it all out, he seems to come to a different conclusion than Jesus and Paul.

The Solution

This is the key to harmonizing Jesus with Moses and Paul. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. He was not laying down a law that forbids any remarriage. If He was, He was contradicting Moses and Paul, and creating a confusing mess for millions of divorced and millions of remarried people.


Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.


Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.


Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.


1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
Just observing.

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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:22 pm

Hi Ready1,

The great thing is, when you show those verses just as you have, they are easily seen as expressions of principles, with general application. And when you go back into the context, nothing contradicts that. :grin:
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:02 pm

Ready1 wrote:When you boil it all out, he seems to come to a different conclusion than Jesus and Paul.


There are still a couple of parts to the series, so perhaps you will see it differently when the series is complete.

This is the key to harmonizing Jesus with Moses and Paul. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. He was not laying down a law that forbids any remarriage. If He was, He was contradicting Moses and Paul, and creating a confusing mess for millions of divorced and millions of remarried people.


In examining scripture, it's very important to note the original, intended audience, what the text said to them, and how they would understand it. In doing this and looking at the 3 verses you have posted from Matthew, Mark, and Luke, we can verify that the intended audience was the Pharisees, that it was said to refute their tradition of putting their wives away for any cause, and that Jesus was clearly refuting their unscriptural practice. We further see that in reality, it is only one passage recorded by three different apostles. Therefore, in lining them up as 3 "different" scriptures and trying to use them to harmonize one another is not a valid method of harmonizing the whole Word of God.

After examining the words directed to the intended audience, we can then determine if/how the words apply to us in our daily lives. So if there are any who desire to "put away" their wives for any cause, the words indeed apply. But, as stated in both the Mosaic Law, our civil law, and which God Himself did, those who do have a valid reason for putting away, she must be given a writ of divorcement.

And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce....Jer 3:8

Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? Isa 50:1

How then, Ready1, do you reconcile the following verses in the same passage from Paul:

But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband. 1Cor. 7:2

But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 1Cor. 7:8-9

Or how do we reconcile Paul's apparent contradiction to widows:

But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.1Cor. 7:8

Therefore, I want younger widows to get married.....1Tim. 5:14

I think we can see that the topic is worthy of discussion and that we cannot simply post 3 records of the same verse in understanding it in it's entirety. I also think that in examining the topic, we cannot ignore Jesus' obvious omission of the topic with the Samaritan woman at the well who had had 5 husbands.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:21 am

Abiding in His Word wrote: I also think that in examining the topic, we cannot ignore Jesus' obvious omission of the topic with the Samaritan woman at the well who had had 5 husbands.


2Co 5:19 as, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not charging their deviations to them, and having put the Word of reconciliation in us.

Jesus wasn't here to condemn, but to bring people to reconciliation with God.

There were a number of times when Jesus did not point out the sins of those He talked to.

Just as Jesus didn't condemn the Samaritan woman's numerous marriages, He didn't say anything against her living together with a man without benefit of marriage. If we made the same argument in that regard, we'd have to say that Jesus was OK with them just living together unmarried.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Ready1 on Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:20 am

Once again this author comes to a completely different conclusion than Jesus.

Divorce and Remarriage-Part Seven wrote:But an unmarried person cannot commit adultery since he has no spouse to be unfaithful to, and neither can a divorced person commit adultery since he has no spouse to which he can be unfaithful.


Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.




AbidinginHisWord wrote:Or how do we reconcile Paul's apparent contradiction to widows:

But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.1Cor. 7:8


I would see a difference between a widow and a divorcee, and it appears that Paul does also.


Abiding in His Word wrote:I think we can see that the topic is worthy of discussion and that we cannot simply post 3 records of the same verse in understanding it in it's entirety. I also think that in examining the topic, we cannot ignore Jesus' obvious omission of the topic with the Samaritan woman at the well who had had 5 husbands.


Interesting that you would bring this up Abiding. Lets look at what Jesus does say in each of these verses. He says that a remarriage is somehow a key to the 'adultery' part.

Matt 5 says that the man who divorces his wife causes her and her next spouse to commit adultery.

Matt 19 says that the man who divorces and remarries, as well as the man who marries his divorced spouse, commits adultery.

Mark 10 agrees that the man who divorces and remarries commits adultery. But he broadens it and says that it is just the same if the woman divorces her husband and remarries, she commits adultery.

Often times we can agree that God hates divorce. What we cannot agree on is how he views the remarriages of the divorced spouses. As such, it appears to be no contradiction for Paul to say,

1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
Just observing.

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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:59 pm

mark s wrote:There were a number of times when Jesus did not point out the sins of those He talked to.

Just as Jesus didn't condemn the Samaritan woman's numerous marriages, He didn't say anything against her living together with a man without benefit of marriage. If we made the same argument in that regard, we'd have to say that Jesus was OK with them just living together unmarried.


I'm not examining other passages when Jesus did not point out the sins of those He talked to. I'm asking about the Samaritan women who had 5 husbands and the significance of that to our discussion about divorce and remarriage.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:52 pm

Ready1 wrote:Once again this author comes to a completely different conclusion than Jesus.

But an unmarried person cannot commit adultery since he has no spouse to be unfaithful to, and neither can a divorced person commit adultery since he has no spouse to which he can be unfaithful.


If we are defining adultery as sexual unfaithfullness with another while married, then an unmarried person cannot commit adultery since she has no spouse to be unfaithful to and neither can a divorced person (who is now unmarried) commit adultery since she has no spouse to be unfaithful to.

I would see a difference between a widow and a divorcee, and it appears that Paul does also.


I asked about the apparent contradiction in these two verses; both seemingly recommending very different suggestions by Paul regarding widows.

But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I.1Cor. 7:8

Therefore, I want younger widows to get married.....1Tim. 5:14

Abiding in His Word wrote:I think we can see that the topic is worthy of discussion and that we cannot simply post 3 records of the same verse in understanding it in it's entirety. I also think that in examining the topic, we cannot ignore Jesus' obvious omission of the topic with the Samaritan woman at the well who had had 5 husbands.


I don't think we disagree at all about fornication (including adultery) as being a valid reason for divorce. My point in bringing up all three verses and their similarity was and still is that they are clearly directed to the Pharisees who prided themselves in not committing adultery as they simply put away their wives. In this way, they thought they had circumvented violation of the law of Moses. Jesus' words to them explicitly pointed to the matters of the heart as being the real violation. His words were pointedly directed to the these hard-hearted hypocrites. I think that is a major, significant factor in interpreting these verses.

Interesting that you would bring this up Abiding. Lets look at what Jesus does say in each of these verses. He says that a remarriage is somehow a key to the 'adultery' part.


Can we agree that there are valid, justifiable, scriptural reasons for divorce?

Often times we can agree that God hates divorce.


I'm not sure that we even agree on that since the verse is always separated from it's context and made to stand alone. My understanding of the focus of the book of Malachi is the Lord's disdain for abuses, the neglect of God's service, the defilement of the priesthood and of their covenant, and the cruelty to their own Jewish wives, divorcing them to make way for heathen wives. And the three words, "God hates divorce" cannot be taken from their context which clarifies their intended meaning:

"Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant. "But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit. And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." Mal 2:14-16

What we cannot agree on is how he views the remarriages of the divorced spouses. As such, it appears to be no contradiction for Paul to say,

1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.


Of course there's no contradiction if you only post 1-2 verses out of the whole chapter. Here's a contradiction within the same chapter:

1Cor. 7:15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

and another within the same chapter:

1Cor 7:9 But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:42 pm

Sooo.....here's how I view the words Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about putting away their wives for any reason and the hardness of their hearts and their application to us.

The purpose of proper biblical interpretation is to discover both the author's intended meaning and the audience to whom the words were spoken and how they would have understood those words.

When Jesus told the crowds that unless their righteousness surpassed that of the scribes and Pharisees, he was clearly speaking to their values, hypocricy, behaviors, and heart attitudes.

1) From the beginning, it was God's intention that the untion between two people be forever.

2) If God's design for the man to leave his parents and cleave to his wife had been heeded rather than removing them from their familes, putting them away would not have left them abandoned and the need for a writ of divorcement would not have been necessary to assure their care.

3) Because of the hardness of mankinds heart, rules and boundaries were implemented in the Mosaic law to assure justice and equity between God's people. But some managed to circumvent the boundary of "uncleanness" in their wives and put them away for any cause.

4) This practice became increasingly pervasive even in the lives of Levites who put away their wives and married heathen wives.

5) During the period of 400 yrs. between the OT and the NT, the Pharisee sect gained great prominence and their tradition began to gain popularity over the Word of God. Those traditions incorporated in the oral law included permission to put their wives away for any reason. They did, however, obey Moses' command that she be given a writ of divorcement as proof that she had been sent away. She was free to marry again, but her first husband could not ask her to come back again as he had defiled her by sending her away.

6) It is this progression and justification of their oral law that Jesus' opposes. They considered themselves keepers of the law of Moses while overriding it with their oral law and imposing it on others as well. They were indeed hypocritical in that they did not consider themselves guilty of adultery because they simply married the one they were lusting after. They played "musical chairs" with women in order to not be found guilty of adultery.

7) Jesus makes them understand that adultery is a sin of the heart as is every deliberate sin:
"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. Matt 15:19

8) The application to us is the same as to the Pharisees if our attitude is the same; that people (wives) are expendable; that they can put away one wife for the purpose of sexual intimacy with another; and justifying that divorce for "any reason." That we are just as guilty of physical adultery when within our hardened heart we calculate to divorce for "any reason" and/or lust in our heart for another's spouse.

All sin in God's eyes is a "heart" condition. When sin is justified for "any cause," it becomes a matter of a hardened heart. And the reason God hates divorce is the treacherous behavior of one spouse's dealing with the other that causes it.

The reason David could have 300 wives and still be a man after God's own heart, was the fact that having removed women from their families during war, he cared for them and supported them in the kingdom. His heart was right....up until he removed Bathsheba from her home because of lust and had her husband killed. And that condition of his heart was severely dealt with by God. Comparing David with the Pharisees should help us to see God's outlook on motives stemming from the heart.

It's the heart condition that God's concerned with.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby savedbygrace on Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:39 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
It's the heart condition that God's concerned with.

Those were my thoughts, too, Abiding. It is the honoring of the marriage covenant, expressed by the commitment, the responsibilities, the love and the respect of both spouses, to each other, which is honorable to God. And the absence of it that is detestable.

If a person is married but does not honor their marriage covenant with their spouse in loving communion while they are married, that is just as detestable as adultery, IMO. Maybe not in the physical sense, but in the hardening of their heart, with their growing disdain and disconnection with their spouse and the absence of unity and love. I think this is closely connected with Jesus' statements about lust in a person's heart being just as sinful as physical extra-marital relations. These things are a prelude to physical adultery in many cases. Which may be why Jesus addressed the condition of a person's heart in the first place.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:00 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
mark s wrote:There were a number of times when Jesus did not point out the sins of those He talked to.

Just as Jesus didn't condemn the Samaritan woman's numerous marriages, He didn't say anything against her living together with a man without benefit of marriage. If we made the same argument in that regard, we'd have to say that Jesus was OK with them just living together unmarried.


I'm not examining other passages when Jesus did not point out the sins of those He talked to. I'm asking about the Samaritan women who had 5 husbands and the significance of that to our discussion about divorce and remarriage.


Hi Abiding,

You've suggested that Jesus, by His silence, declares the Samaritan woman's 5 marriages to be acceptable in God's eyes. While its entirely possible that she was 5 times divorced due to sexual immorality on the part of her husbands, we don't even need to wonder about this.

Because there is this also: She was then living with a man, without being married to him.

John 4:17-18
(17) And the woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said to her, Well did you say, I have no husband.
(18) For you have had five husbands, and now he whom you have is not your husband. You have spoken this truly.

Jesus did not speak against her marriages, nor did He speak against her cohabitation. Does this silence on His part constitute the God's declaration that both divorce and remarriage for any cause, and cohabitation without benefit of marriage are right, and acceptable to God?

To assert that is, literally, an argument from silence. And to assert the one is to equally assert the other.

Jesus did not declare divorce and remarriage for any reason, or cohabitation without benefit of marriage, to be OK. He didn't address the issue at all with this woman.

But that was not unusual. After all, He did not come to condemn the world.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:05 am

1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.


A really interesting thing about how this is worded . . .

This woman is declared unmarried, yet still she has a husband. How can a divorced person commit adultery?

If I simply divorce my wife, for no other reason that that I no longer wish to be married, what becomes of the one-flesh joining that God performed?

What is the Scriptural answer to this question?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:42 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:When Jesus told the crowds that unless their righteousness surpassed that of the scribes and Pharisees, he was clearly speaking to their values, hypocricy, behaviors, and heart attitudes.
Personally, I think Jesus was speaking of our need for His righteousness to be imputed. Then He went on to show us God's true standard, both so that we could know what was right, and so that we could understand that we needed more than what our best efforts at keeping the Law would provide.

1) From the beginning, it was God's intention that the untion between two people be forever.
Absolutely agreed! (well, at least 'til death do part - but I'm confident that's what you meant! :grin: )

2) If God's design for the man to leave his parents and cleave to his wife had been heeded rather than removing them from their familes, putting them away would not have left them abandoned and the need for a writ of divorcement would not have been necessary to assure their care.
Where does the Bible teach that a man is to join his wife's family?

Wasn't the family inheritance passed through the sons? If the son's all left their families, wouldn't' that mean abandoning their own inheritances?
3) Because of the hardness of mankinds heart, rules and boundaries were implemented in the Mosaic law to assure justice and equity between God's people. But some managed to circumvent the boundary of "uncleanness" in their wives and put them away for any cause.
Isn't that what Jesus was addressing? That divorce was permitted because people's hearts were hard, but the truth being that all these divorces outside of sexual immorality were wrong, and didn't actually release them to be remarried?

4) This practice became increasingly pervasive even in the lives of Levites who put away their wives and married heathen wives.
Just as it is becoming increasingly prevalent today, through all ranks of the church.

5) During the period of 400 yrs. between the OT and the NT, the Pharisee sect gained great prominence and their tradition began to gain popularity over the Word of God. Those traditions incorporated in the oral law included permission to put their wives away for any reason. They did, however, obey Moses' command that she be given a writ of divorcement as proof that she had been sent away. She was free to marry again, but her first husband could not ask her to come back again as he had defiled her by sending her away.
Those who were sent away so that their husbands could get with another woman were free to remarry.

6) It is this progression and justification of their oral law that Jesus' opposes. They considered themselves keepers of the law of Moses while overriding it with their oral law and imposing it on others as well. They were indeed hypocritical in that they did not consider themselves guilty of adultery because they simply married the one they were lusting after. They played "musical chairs" with women in order to not be found guilty of adultery.


I have every confidence that Jesus did oppose this. However, this does not change the fact that He taught principles with general application. There was only one reason for divorce given that allowed remarriage. "Whoever . . ."
7) Jesus makes them understand that adultery is a sin of the heart as is every deliberate sin:
"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. Matt 15:19
Absolutely agreed! :grin:

8) The application to us is the same as to the Pharisees if our attitude is the same; that people (wives) are expendable; that they can put away one wife for the purpose of sexual intimacy with another; and justifying that divorce for "any reason." That we are just as guilty of physical adultery when within our hardened heart we calculate to divorce for "any reason" and/or lust in our heart for another's spouse.


Do you then think that I can divorce my wife simply because I find that she is too "needy", now that she has cancer, not having anyone else in mind, and that having done so, should I meet someone next month, that I am free in God's eyes to remarry?
All sin in God's eyes is a "heart" condition. When sin is justified for "any cause," it becomes a matter of a hardened heart. And the reason God hates divorce is the treacherous behavior of one spouse's dealing with the other that causes it.
There are three different words used for sin in the Bible. There is "sin", to simply "miss the target", we might say, fall short. There is "transgress", which is to knowingly step over a line. There is iniquity, or wickedness, which is the evil intent of the heart. But here's the point: each are wrong.

What is the Biblical foundation for saying that the reason God hates divorce is the treacherous behavior that causes it?

Why should we not say that the reason God hates divorce is because its man's rebellion against the one-flesh union God has created?

The reason David could have 300 wives and still be a man after God's own heart, was the fact that having removed women from their families during war, he cared for them and supported them in the kingdom. His heart was right....up until he removed Bathsheba from her home because of lust and had her husband killed. And that condition of his heart was severely dealt with by God. Comparing David with the Pharisees should help us to see God's outlook on motives stemming from the heart.


I think you're mixing Solomon and David. However, David did have multiple wives. Of course, David being called "a man after God's own heart wasn't a blanket endorsement of everything he did. And I don't think we can really make the case that David multiplied his wives (against God's direct commandment) altruistically, and that it was endorsed and condoned by God. That would be contradictory.

"The LORD has sought out a man according to His Own heart." This could mean "David is like God's heart", of course, he was also called "to bloody to build the temple".

This could also mean that the choice was based on God's selection, the man God chose. Saul was very much the sort of man the people wanted to be their king. David was not the sort of man the people would have chosen, but he was the sort of man God would choose. But this doesn't mean everything he did was right. And multiplying wives was blatant sin.

It's the heart condition that God's concerned with.
That's true, but even unintentional sin requires forgiveness, and is still sin. We might have no idea the wrong we are doing, but we are still doing wrong. We might have no idea of the ramifications of our actions, but those ramifications still exist.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:05 pm

mark s wrote:You've suggested that Jesus, by His silence, declares the Samaritan woman's 5 marriages to be acceptable in God's eyes. While its entirely possible that she was 5 times divorced due to sexual immorality on the part of her husbands, we don't even need to wonder about this.

Because there is this also: She was then living with a man, without being married to him.


Hi Mark,

I don't remember suggesting anything of the sort..... I merely suggested that we should take a look at her situation relative to the divorce and remarriage topic. It's a very interesting biblical passage and I do think it's a very meaningful discourse between this woman and Jesus. It's no accident that he came in contact with her and no accident that it was recorded for our understanding and contemplation.

While you've suggested that it's entirely possible that she was 5 times divorced due to sexual immorality on the part of her husbands, there's also a couple other possibilities. I don't see speculating about this passage any different than speculating on other scripture and I trust you don't either. Two other possibilities for her 5 marriages and divorces are:

1) She was "put away" for burning the evening supper or for "any cause."

2) There was found some "indecency" in her by 5 husbands and given a write of divorcement when she was sent away that enabled her to remarry.

If the sexual immorality (adultery) was on the part of her husbands, he would have been stoned according to the Law and that also is a possibility, right?

The point is that Jesus knew that this woman had been the wife of 5 husbands and said nothing. I do find this significant since when He encountered another woman who was guilty of immorality, He told her to go and sin no more. The only other time, he mentioned adultery and/or immorality was to the Pharisees.

My observation considering these things, is not that Jesus condoned/excused immorality. That He would not should just be a given among Christians. What I am suggesting is that God in the OT and Jesus in the NT always sides with the righteous, innocent victims of treachery and condemns the wicked. He did clearly come for this purpose after all....for the brokenhearted, captives, prisoners, and those who mourn. I am suggesting that there are people who, for no fault of their own, have been "put away" by their spouses and they are not held guilty for the putting away. They are to be given a writ of divorcement as stated in both the OT and the NT and are no longer bound to that covenant. Jesus knew that this would be the case because of hardness of heart just as was conspicuously present in the Pharisees.

Paul's words reflect his background as a Pharisee, so I suggest his words be considered in the same light. Again, this in no way negates the sinfulness of the many hard hearted spouses that have caused the number of Christian divorces to nearly surpass those of non-Christians, but it simply acknowledges it as a fact. So, it is the hard heart issue that must be dealt with in marriages as the only hope of returning to the perfect design since it is in the heart that adultery and immoralities germinate.

The answer is not to create NT laws that bind a victim of a hard heart tighter than he/she was bound in the OT. Jesus did not do that except to direct that tighter law to those with hard hearts; namely the Pharisees.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Ready1 on Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:23 pm

The answer is not to create NT laws that bind a victim of a hard heart tighter than he/she was bound in the OT. Jesus did not do that except to direct that tighter law to those with hard hearts; namely the Pharisees.


Maybe we just have trouble with names today. It could be that we have 'Pharisees' among us as well.

(I find it interesting that you are so certain that this is just for Pharisees and yet when I suggest that the Gospel of Matthew is a presentation of the Gospel to the Jews and in particular that Matt 24 is for Israel, I get beat up one side and down the other.)
:lol: :offtopic:
Just observing.

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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Wed Aug 13, 2008 3:45 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
mark s wrote:You've suggested that Jesus, by His silence, declares the Samaritan woman's 5 marriages to be acceptable in God's eyes. While its entirely possible that she was 5 times divorced due to sexual immorality on the part of her husbands, we don't even need to wonder about this.

Because there is this also: She was then living with a man, without being married to him.


Hi Mark,

I don't remember suggesting anything of the sort..... I merely suggested that we should take a look at her situation relative to the divorce and remarriage topic.


Hi Abiding,

Perhaps I read that into what you wrote. Please allow me to back up a step.

What do you think is the significance of Jesus' silence concerning the Samaritan woman's marital status? Do you think that this means God was OK with her remarriages? What conclusions should we draw? Or should we draw any conclusions at all?

It's a very interesting biblical passage and I do think it's a very meaningful discourse between this woman and Jesus. It's no accident that he came in contact with her and no accident that it was recorded for our understanding and contemplation.
As is written, "All Scripture . . ." :grin:

While you've suggested that it's entirely possible that she was 5 times divorced due to sexual immorality on the part of her husbands, there's also a couple other possibilities. I don't see speculating about this passage any different than speculating on other scripture and I trust you don't either.
I think we're on the same page here. I only mentioned it for completeness. Since we don't know the reasons for her divorces, they could be anything.

If the sexual immorality (adultery) was on the part of her husbands, he would have been stoned according to the Law and that also is a possibility, right?
Yes, entirely possible. And as I'm thinking about it, she could have been 5 times widowed, couldn't she?

The point is that Jesus knew that this woman had been the wife of 5 husbands and said nothing. I do find this significant since when He encountered another woman who was guilty of immorality, He told her to go and sin no more. The only other time, he mentioned adultery and/or immorality was to the Pharisees.


No, He also taught about adultery, divorce, and remarriage in the sermon on the mount, which was not to the Pharisees.

But again, He also said nothing to this woman about her then current state of just "living together". We can't construe His silence as approval.

Look at the rich young ruler, who told Jesus to His face that he had kept all the law from his youth. Jesus didn't correct him, although I feel quite certain that he wasn't correct. Jesus only said, go, sell all you have, give it to the poor, and come follow Me.

My observation considering these things, is not that Jesus condoned/excused immorality. That He would not should just be a given among Christians.
Of course He doesn't. But Jesus didn't always make His contact with people a catalog of their sins. Same with Zaccheaus, and so many others. As Paul wrote in II Cor 5, Jesus was here, but not counting men's transgressions against them. He wasn't here to condemn, but to save.

What I am suggesting is that God in the OT and Jesus in the NT always sides with the righteous, innocent victims of treachery and condemns the wicked. He did clearly come for this purpose after all....for the brokenhearted, captives, prisoners, and those who mourn.
I agree with all of this.

I am suggesting that there are people who, for no fault of their own, have been "put away" by their spouses and they are not held guilty for the putting away. They are to be given a writ of divorcement as stated in both the OT and the NT and are no longer bound to that covenant. Jesus knew that this would be the case because of hardness of heart just as was conspicuously present in the Pharisees.


I have every confidence that such a thing could be, this innocent party. And yet, God tells us to not remarry, to hope for reconciliation with our spouse. There are only a couple of things mentioned in the Bible that actually "release" us from that covenant, according to the Bible. Sexual immorality, and the death of the spouse are specifically named as loosing one from that covenant. Nothing else is.

Oh, and where in the New Testament are you reading about "giving a writ of divorcement"?

Paul's words reflect his background as a Pharisee, so I suggest his words be considered in the same light.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think we can interpret Paul's writings in the manner that we do any other didactic Biblical passage.

Again, this in no way negates the sinfulness of the many hard hearted spouses that have caused the number of Christian divorces to nearly surpass those of non-Christians, but it simply acknowledges it as a fact. So, it is the hard heart issue that must be dealt with in marriages as the only hope of returning to the perfect design since it is in the heart that adultery and immoralities germinate.


I agree, and will add that we have to die to ourselves in order to love as we ought. Without Christ, marriage is subject to the vagaries of temperaments and compatibilities, of sinful lusts, and all manner of human weakness.

Only with a Spirit-led life can we have a marriage as God intends.

The answer is not to create NT laws that bind a victim of a hard heart tighter than he/she was bound in the OT. Jesus did not do that except to direct that tighter law to those with hard hearts; namely the Pharisees.


Abiding, I have no wish to create NT law. We are in fact released from the Law. But that fact doesn't change the nature of right and wrong, and what God wants, and approves, and what God knows is good and right for us, and for others.

Jesus was not "making NT Law" when He taught that looking to lust was adultery, He was just telling us the way it is. And He wasn't "making NT Law" when He taught that to remarry after divorce other than for adultery was adultery itself - He was just telling us the way that it is.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:00 pm

Ready1 wrote:Maybe we just have trouble with names today. It could be that we have 'Pharisees' among us as well.

(I find it interesting that you are so certain that this is just for Pharisees and yet when I suggest that the Gospel of Matthew is a presentation of the Gospel to the Jews and in particular that Matt 24 is for Israel, I get beat up one side and down the other.)


:lol:

Hi Ready1,

I didn't say it was "just" for the Pharisees, but one of the most important aspects to correct exegesis is to consider who is saying what and to whom and under what circumstances. If someone relates to the characteristics of a Pharisee, then they should pay careful attention! Otherwise, the application to me personally is one of description rather than prescription.....(think I got that right). In other words the passages that speak specifically to the hypocricy of the Pharisees, informs and enlightens me about the condition of their hearts in this specific area and indeed warns that unless our righteousness surpasses that of those Pharisees, we will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

I also see the same passage in 3 gospels Jesus refuting the continual barrage of distortions the Pharisees had applied erroneously to the Law. He did this by correctly referring to the correct meaning of the Mosaic Law which was designed to regulate the prevalence of divorcing women for any reason but for indecency or immorality only. The writ or certificate of divorcement enabled the woman to marry again and the husband who put her out was forbidden to take her again as his wife since he had defiled her.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:00 am

1. For example, consider the comments of one divorced pastor who found himself cut off from the body of Christ when he remarried. He said, "It would have been better if I had murdered my wife than divorced her. If I had murdered her, I could have repented, received forgiveness, lawfully remarried, and continued in my ministry."


:shock:

This is a statement of pure self-service. "I want what I want!" Better if he had murdered????????

:shock:
:shock:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:22 am

mark s wrote:
1. For example, consider the comments of one divorced pastor who found himself cut off from the body of Christ when he remarried. He said, "It would have been better if I had murdered my wife than divorced her. If I had murdered her, I could have repented, received forgiveness, lawfully remarried, and continued in my ministry."


:shock:

This is a statement of pure self-service. "I want what I want!" Better if he had murdered????????

:shock:
:shock:


Are we merging two threads? :humm:
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:28 am

It seemed that the topic was being discussed here, so I thought I'd keep to that . . . ?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:44 am

mark s wrote:It seemed that the topic was being discussed here, so I thought I'd keep to that . . . ?


It would be overwhelming and confusing to integrate and discuss 8 separate threads on the topic of divorce in this one, don't you think? Probably better to reply to each of the 8 as posted imho.
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Re: Divorce and Remarriage - The New Testament Scriptures

Postby mark s on Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:53 am

No problem!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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