Gog to come this year to Israel??????

[good4u]

Speculation abounds about what Israel is considering in response to the nearing completion of nuclear weapons from Iran. How likely do you think it is that Israel will take a unilateral response to destroy as many nuclear sites within Iran as possible -- this year BEFORE the Presidential election? The USA is so tied up with two Middle East wars that we just do not have the national strength to counter Iran and they know it. Do you see Israel being proactive here and doing the dirty work for the sake of their own national security?

If so, do you see Russia coming to the aid of Iran in defense? I can see this scerenio happening and Ezekial 38 and 39 being fullfulled possibly this year????? What do you think????

[SueAnn]

If/when Israel destroys Iran's Nuclear capability, it will not be the first time Israel had to do this to a neighboring country. I can't remember the year or the country, but Israel made a successful pre-emptive strike before. They did not need America's help then. They do not need it now.

I no longer believe that Gog/Magog is Russia. It is Turkey. I do not know what Russia's role is in the last 7 years of this age, but Gog/Magog is not Russia.

[good4u]

If/when Israel destroys Iran's Nuclear capability, it will not be the first time Israel had to do this to a neighboring country. I can't remember the year or the country, but Israel made a successful pre-emptive strike before. They did not need America's help then. They do not need it now.

I no longer believe that Gog/Magog is Russia. It is Turkey. I do not know what Russia's role is in the last 7 years of this age, but Gog/Magog is not Russia.

Actually, let me help you, it was in Sept. 2007 Israel unilaterally bombed Syria's nuclear capabilities sucessfully.

Exactly why do you think Gog is Turkey and not Russia, considering that Gog must come from the uttermost part of the North according to Ezek. 38? I am interested in the basis of your statement since you gave no biblical evidence your post.

[RRiley]

June 7, 1981


1981: Israel bombs Baghdad nuclear reactor
The Israelis have bombed a French-built nuclear plant near Iraq's capital, Baghdad, saying they believed it was designed to make nuclear weapons to destroy Israel.

It is the world's first air strike against a nuclear plant.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 014623.stm

[D4Christ]

I do not think it is likely that gog will attack Israel this year, assuming that these attacks are based on the prophecies of Ezekiel 38/39/37. What I do think may happen soon though is that thru the strenthening of the EU and their Barcelona process, Israel and some of her enemies may come to an agreement of peace based on the exisiting ENP agreements already in place. These agreements promise protection, peace and security to all of its members...that includes Israel and Palestine.

If a peace or truce was to be announced based on these existing agreements, confirming the covenant (agreement) in place currently, then the next events I would expect to see are Jewish religous leaders allowed to perform some rituals on the mount and these rituals being stopped (in June 2010) 3.5 years from the start of the 70th week by the AC.

This would seem to fall in line with the scriptures that tell us 'they give assurances of peace, when there is no peace.' (Jeremiah 6 and 8) We could then expect the GT to be quickly followed by the DOL.


Deirdre

[Tevye]

The USA is so tied up with two Middle East wars that we just do not have the national strength to counter Iran and they know it.

Th interesting thing is Iran
is sandwiched between the two U.S. war areas.
This could be destiny,
(how the armies of the U.S. were put in place
before the need for Israel to go against Iran)
and if Israel goes after Iran
and Iran gets ulgy against Israel
I imagine the US will move in
from both sides of Iran
and that could be,
just what the U.S. is waiting for.

Things could get very active, soon.
It seems like we're in the calm just before the storm
and it's all about to....

[good4u]

I do not think it is likely that gog will attack Israel this year, assuming that these attacks are based on the prophecies of Ezekiel 38/39/37. What I do think may happen soon though is that thru the strenthening of the EU and their Barcelona process, Israel and some of her enemies may come to an agreement of peace based on the exisiting ENP agreements already in place. These agreements promise protection, peace and security to all of its members...that includes Israel and Palestine.

If a peace or truce was to be announced based on these existing agreements, confirming the covenant (agreement) in place currently, then the next events I would expect to see are Jewish religous leaders allowed to perform some rituals on the mount and these rituals being stopped (in June 2010) 3.5 years from the start of the 70th week by the AC.

This would seem to fall in line with the scriptures that tell us 'they give assurances of peace, when there is no peace.' (Jeremiah 6 and 8) We could then expect the GT to be quickly followed by the DOL.


Deirdre

Actually the strenghtening of the ENP has already taken place with the ENPI and it appears, at this point, to have no affect on the memeber states--at least not yet. So unless a false peace comes really, really fast, I don't see right now how the ENPI is the credible peace covenant since it has been in place since 1/1/07. So it appears we might need to consider something yet in the future.

[good4u]

The USA is so tied up with two Middle East wars that we just do not have the national strength to counter Iran and they know it.

Th interesting thing is Iran
is sandwiched between the two U.S. war areas.
This could be destiny,
(how the armies of the U.S. were put in place
before the need for Israel to go against Iran)
and if Israel goes after Iran
and Iran gets ulgy against Israel
I imagine the US will move in
from both sides of Iran
and that could be,
just what the U.S. is waiting for.

Things could get very active, soon.
It seems like we're in the calm just before the storm
and it's all about to....

I agree, I think events could come fast and furiouis in the Middle East shortly before the US election. Events turn on a dime in the Middle East and why it is watched so closely. Nevertheless, I don't see the US shifting focus from the current two wars being fought to fight a third war w/a soon-to-be nuclear armed Iran. However, I do see Israel being proactive here because of her high national security risk. We shall see if my theory holds water.

[D4Christ]

I do not think it is likely that gog will attack Israel this year, assuming that these attacks are based on the prophecies of Ezekiel 38/39/37. What I do think may happen soon though is that thru the strenthening of the EU and their Barcelona process, Israel and some of her enemies may come to an agreement of peace based on the exisiting ENP agreements already in place. These agreements promise protection, peace and security to all of its members...that includes Israel and Palestine.

If a peace or truce was to be announced based on these existing agreements, confirming the covenant (agreement) in place currently, then the next events I would expect to see are Jewish religous leaders allowed to perform some rituals on the mount and these rituals being stopped (in June 2010) 3.5 years from the start of the 70th week by the AC.

This would seem to fall in line with the scriptures that tell us 'they give assurances of peace, when there is no peace.' (Jeremiah 6 and 8) We could then expect the GT to be quickly followed by the DOL.


Deirdre

Actually the strenghtening of the ENP has already taken place with the ENPI and it appears, at this point, to have no affect on the memeber states--at least not yet. So unless a false peace comes really, really fast, I don't see right now how the ENPI is the credible peace covenant since it has been in place since 1/1/07. So it appears we might need to consider something yet in the future.

I understand where you are coming from, but I cannot help but think we still have time. The ENPI was intiated on 1/1/07 and is set to last 7 years...you have to admit that is a good start. But I also realize that hand shakes on agreements in that region of the world come and go, and now everyone seems desperate to achieve some type of peace. Scriptures say according to whatever version you read, 'he will confirm the covenant with many for one week' or 'he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week.' This confirmation came, according to some theories, when the ENPI was established because the language of the document actually states that it will strengthen the 7 year agreement that was already in existence.

The only other information we are given per Daniel is that at the midpoint, the agreement is broken and sacrifices stop. The scriptures do not indicate how long the sacrifices have been going on, or where in the first 3 1/2 period they begin, so I do not think we should assume how long the sacrifices last or when they should start. Our only concern is that they start and then stop.

Since we all know that Muslims would go nuts if Jewish religous leaders were allowed to perform any type of rituals on the Mount, it is conceivable...at least in my mind...that if in a gesture of good will sacrifices were allowed and then quickly stopped among muslim protests...

Either way, we cannot dismiss the ENPI until it has reached it's halfway mark...we've got to June 2010 to see if it bears fruit.

Can't wait....

Deirdre

[good4u]

I understand where you are coming from, but I cannot help but think we still have time. The ENPI was intiated on 1/1/07 and is set to last 7 years...you have to admit that is a good start. But I also realize that hand shakes on agreements in that region of the world come and go, and now everyone seems desperate to achieve some type of peace. Scriptures say according to whatever version you read, 'he will confirm the covenant with many for one week' or 'he shall enter into a strong and firm covenant with the many for one week.' This confirmation came, according to some theories, when the ENPI was established because the language of the document actually states that it will strengthen the 7 year agreement that was already in existence.

The only other information we are given per Daniel is that at the midpoint, the agreement is broken and sacrifices stop. The scriptures do not indicate how long the sacrifices have been going on, or where in the first 3 1/2 period they begin, so I do not think we should assume how long the sacrifices last or when they should start. Our only concern is that they start and then stop.

Since we all know that Muslims would go nuts if Jewish religous leaders were allowed to perform any type of rituals on the Mount, it is conceivable...at least in my mind...that if in a gesture of good will sacrifices were allowed and then quickly stopped among muslim protests...

Either way, we cannot dismiss the ENPI until it has reached it's halfway mark...we've got to June 2010 to see if it bears fruit.

Can't wait....

Deirdre

Your point that the ENPI may need more time is well taken. However, if August comes and goes and we come to the fall US election with no major event happening in the Middle East, I suggest that we will need to go back to the drawing board and look for another covenant to strengthen. At the same time, I acknowledge events change on a dime in the ME and just because it doesn't happen today doesn't mean it can't happen tomorrow. But again, God in in awesome sovereignty has given his people (especially his prophecy watchers) specific sign posts to watch for to those who look and by that I mean both heavenly signs and earthly signs coming together well then, all bets (or educated guesses) are off and it is off to the prophetic races we go!

In all reality, I postulate that Ezekiel 38/39 will be fulfilled BEFORE the temple is rebuilt. There are very good reasons for my position, but of course, if Russia does not invade Israel this year it may be next year and this is cutting into the decreed timed events of the 70th week IF the ENPI is THE covenant. But who knows? We will just have to wait and see how God works this out and be humbled by his control over events.

[1whowaits]

While it is possible for Gog to occur this year, it appears that there is an event that occurs prior to Gog. In the list of nations at Gog-magog in Ezek, the nations immediately surrounding Israel, the ones most likely to attack Israel at this time, are conspicuously absent. But these nations, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Gaza (and perhaps Egypt), are described at the destruction of Damascus in Isa 17, Amos 1, Zech 9, Jer 49.

Isa 17 appears to make an association between the destruction of Damascus and Gog-magog, with Damascus occurring first. It would appear that the next event is the destruction of Damascus, which does not appear far off at this time.

And while it does appear that Gog-magog occurs after Damascus, it is not clear how long after Damascus' destruction Gog takes place. From Isa 17 it may be that Damascus occurs in the spring or summer, while from Joel 2 Gog appears to occur in the fall, while not necessarily in the same year.

Many of us look at the 2015 date as a possible endpoint for the 70th week, suggesting that the 70th week could begin this fall. But while the scripture describes a 70th week or a 7 year period, that period of time does not have to be exactly 7 years. In the eastern mind, 6 years + 1 day can be considered 7 years, that 1day is part of the 7th year period and is considered separate from the 6 years (in the same way Jesus could have been crucified on Fri and resurrected on Sun and still be 3 days in the earth, partial periods can be seen as complete days or years).

While there are specific numbers of days given in prophetic scripture, most all of those pertain to the latter half of the 70th week, it is not clear that the first half of the 70th week is a complete 3.5 years. Jesus also said the days would be shortened, which could apply to the entire period of the 70th week, not just the latter half of the 70th week, which has specific numbers of days to be fulfilled (the first half could be shorter, not necesarily the latter half).

This could mean that even if an event like the destruction of Damascus did occur this year, a following event, like Gog, may not occur until next year and still occur at the beginning of the 70th week. Even if Gog occurred in the fall of next year it could still occur 6 years and several days prior to the 2015 date, there could still be what is considered to be a 7 year period following Gog.

[good4u]

Hi 1whowaits!

I have read many of your post and agree with most of them, if not all of them. Your prophetic knowledge is astounding and I have learned much from your posts and will seek to be teachable where one who is more knowledgable than myself can expand a discussion. Needless to say, I am an admirer of your learned prophetic study.
Thank you so much for adding to this most important prophetic question. I don't mean to fawn, but you are the first poster I have truly learned from--that is saying alot.

I happened to be watching the Glenn Beck program last night and he was interviewing, Steve Forbes, a former presidential candidate. Mr. Forbes mentioned something which aparently is widely held in at least American political circles which is the real possibility of a unilateral strike by Isarel against Iran nuclear facilities before the US presidential election. I tend to agree with his assessment. The manuverings for this possibability are becoming more and more real. Considering the close relationship between Russia and Iran, do you not see Russia coming to Iran's defense if such a strike were to happen? How is it that Damascus must be eliminated first before Russia invades Israel? I definitely could see Damascus being eliminated w/in the 70th week, but before hand? I had never heard of such a understanding in prophectic teaching, how did you arrive at this?

[1whowaits]

Good4u, thanks for the compliment but actually i have just read alot of prophecy books (i would recommend Grant Jeffery). The thoughts about the destruction of Damascus are held by several prophecy scholars, based on what is noted in Isa and Ezek.

Ezek 38 gives a list of nations that come against Israel at Gog-Magog, but the nations immediately surrounding Israel, the ones most likely to be involved in an attack, are not listed at Gog. As they are not listed and they would appear to be all to willing to particiapte in such an attack, it is believed that something happens to these nations prior to Gog.

These nations are listed in association with the destruction of Damascus is Isa 16,17, Amos 1, Zech 9, Jer 48,49. These nations are Tyre and Sidon (Lebanon), Damascus, Hamath (Syria), Edom, Ammon, Moab (Jordan), Gaza, Ashkelon, Philistia (Gaza).

It is interesting that while certain nations clearly wish to attack Israel now (Syria, Gaza), the other areas (Lebanon, Jordan- west bank) have terrorist elements (Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinians) who wish to attack Israel even if the entire nation does not.

The stage appears to be set for the destruction of Damascus at present, not for Gog-Magog yet. But according to Isa 17 it appears that the destruction of Damascus is associated with Gog-Magog in the latter part of the chapter. And Jer 49 does appear to link the destruction of Damascus with destruction in Elam (Iran).

If Israel attacks Iran it is likely that Iran will encourage Syria and the terrorist elements in Lebanon and Gaza and the west bank to attack Israel, some with WMD. If that did happen, the destruction of Damascus would appear to be inevitable. But Iran and Syria may not wait for Israel to attack, if they feel an attack is imminent they may launch without provocation.

The destruction of Damascus could then set the stage for Gog-magog. It would be likely that all muslims would be drawn in if Damascus were nuked, including the muslim republics in Russia, and likely Russia itself, as Iran and Syria are client states and Russia has a significant muslim population. The nations listed in Ezek 38 appear to describe basically a muslim army with Gog in the lead, whoever Gog and Magog turns out to be.

Some believe Magog to be Turkey, others Russia, and i believe some Jews believe President Bush is Gog for some reason. While magog appears to be associated with an area in Turkey and the southern Russian republics, the term 'Magog' can be interpreted simply as 'land of Gog', meaning that Magog could be any nation, not specifically those in the traditional area of the Magog of the past.

And as Gog-Magog is described with a 7 year period following it, it is possible that Gog takes place around the beginning of the 70th week (a 7 year period following would appear to be more than a coincidence), placing the destruction of Damascus as occurring prior to that time.

[mrgravyard49]

1WhoWaits,
If Your right and it really makes sense what you say, then We do not have long to wait. In Fact if Mark Biltz is right I think August 1 thr 10th could be the start of it all. But I still have to wonder why America doesnt help Israel?
I have to wonder (being Pre-Trib) if the Rapture doesnt happen 1st and sets the stage for this to happen.
I mean it would hurt America the most and America would be a total mess.
For those who say The Rapture is to happen on the Feast of Trumpets, I question that because we are NOT to know the DAY or Hour and if we say Trumpets then we Know the DAY.
Anyhow Seems alot is about to Happen...

[1whowaits]

mrgravyard, yes it does appear that events could get going soon, especially if pastor Biltz's theory is correct, which it may or may not be.

As far as the events that will take place, we have to realize that there are going to be some real twists and turns that we did not expect. What happens to the US? several possibilities, some i shudder to think about. Timing of the rapture? we all need to be prepared for the unexpected.

But it is a pretty good bet that things are going to get alot more difficult sooner rather than later. All the more opportunity for God to show us His power, we are not in this alone, and He still counts the hairs on our heads.

I would encourage you not to become weary of watching and waiting, the time will come when the events begin, and when it does we will be amazed on how prophecy is being fulfilled.

[good4u]

Insightful discussion all, thank you. August may indeed be a telling month or at the very least the months leading up to the US election. Unfortunately, international events are going to get much, much worse.

[ACfrom Turkey]

Gog won't come to attack Israel until he comes to set up the abomination of desolation. Many people believe that the Gog attack is prior to the 70th week; however, this is due to a belief that the AC comes from Europe thus Islam must be wiped out before the 70th week. However, if one were to read Ezekiel 38-39 without any presuppositions then it becomes clear that the Gog attack does not occur until the midpoint of the 70th week.


Eze 38:19 "In My zeal and in My blazing wrath I declare {that} on that day there will surely be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.
Eze 38:20 "The fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all the creeping things that creep on the earth, and all the men who are on the face of the earth will shake at My presence; the mountains also will be thrown down, the steep pathways will collapse and every wall will fall to the ground.


Eze 39:29 "I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD.

[good4u]

I understand your differing point of view, AC from Turkey. Many biblical prophecy scholars are divided on the timing of the Gog/Magog event including these posters on the board. Just ask them about the timing of the rapture of the church! LOL!! Back to Gog--Scripture is unclear as to the timing of this event prophesied by Ezekiel, hence a lively discussion among posters and I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. As time draws nearer we will indeed see when and how the Gog/Magog event plays out, along with the destruction of the City of Damascus in Syria and which comes first. It really should not be to long before we know. Good thing I don't place bets...

[mrgravyard49]

One reason for Magog before the trib is ~~~~~~~~~~~It will take 7 years to clean up the mess..

[ACfrom Turkey]

Why is 7 years to clean up the mess proof that the attack will occur before the 70th week? I'm pretty sure that there are 1000 years following the 70th week.

So are you suggesting that they will be cleaning up the mess during the great tribulation and the judgment of God (day of the Lord)? They will be cleaning up during hailstorms, stinging "locusts", etc...?

It is not until the millenial reign that swords will be beat into plowshares and weapons burned since there will be no more learning the art of war.

[jgilberAZ]

ACfrom Turkey

[mark s]

Why is 7 years to clean up the mess proof that the attack will occur before the 70th week? I'm pretty sure that there are 1000 years following the 70th week.

So are you suggesting that they will be cleaning up the mess during the great tribulation and the judgment of God (day of the Lord)? They will be cleaning up during hailstorms, stinging "locusts", etc...?

It is not until the millenial reign that swords will be beat into plowshares and weapons burned since there will be no more learning the art of war.

Its interesting to me that where they will bury the bodies is half-way to where they will flee into the wilderness. Its not a stretch of the imagination to suppose that they might be smuggling the fuels into the desert in preparation for their countrymen's flight.

[good4u]

One reason for Magog before the trib is ~~~~~~~~~~~It will take 7 years to clean up the mess..

Actually that is incorrect, it is 7 months that Israel will be burying the dead. Here is the verse from Ezekiel 39:

12." 'For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land.

You are referring to seven years that Israel will use their weapons as an energy source from Ezekiel 39. Here is your verse:

9." 'Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up--the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel.

[1whowaits]

AC, you appear to indicate that Gog is the AC as you state that Gog sets up the AOD. How do you reconcile the significant difference between Gog and the AC, Gog is killed and buried in a mass grave while the AC is cast alive into the Lake of Fire?

[ACfrom Turkey]

It is a very minor issue compared to the rest of the issues that face those who say Gog is not the AC. He will be cast from his grave. The AC is said to be killed or slain in many other passages. I know I'm not going to convince you 1whowaits so we will just wait until a person from the area sets up the aod (or at least his forces set it up) and then you will know. After this year passes with no Gog attack and especially when a covenant is confirmed will people then begin to consider that the European theory is past its time.

[jgilberAZ]

For those who say The Rapture is to happen on the Feast of Trumpets, I question that because we are NOT to know the DAY or Hour and if we say Trumpets then we Know the DAY.

No, we won't.

The Feast of Trumpets is the only feast that happens on the first day of the month. This day is marked by the first appearing of the moon. Since events could transpire in such a way as to not be able to clearly identify the first day of the month, the Feast of Trumpets is celebrated over two days. In fact, there is/was a Hebrew idiom for the Feast of Trumpets that identified it as "the day no man knows."

http://bibleprophesy.org/rosh.htm

Quote from link:

Rosh Hashanah is the "no man knows the day or hour" festival; it is
the celebration where the "last trump" is played; it is the
wedding ceremony; and it stands for many other things including
the "day of judgment" and "repentance."

Rosh Hashanah == Feast of Trumpets == the day no man knows

It fits.

- Jeff

[good4u]

It is a very minor issue compared to the rest of the issues that face those who say Gog is not the AC. He will be cast from his grave. The AC is said to be killed or slain in many other passages. I know I'm not going to convince you 1whowaits so we will just wait until a person from the area sets up the aod (or at least his forces set it up) and then you will know. After this year passes with no Gog attack and especially when a covenant is confirmed will people then begin to consider that the European theory is past its time.

Well, this is an interesting thought...you propose that the AC is from w/in the MiddleEast? Am I reading too much into your statement and if I am where is the AC coming from and your biblical basis? I am curious...I just love discussion because it expands understanding if it is biblical. Thanks, AC.

[1whowaits]

AC, the difference in the death of the AC vs that of Gog is a major factor in determining if Gog and the AC are the same person. If one cannot explain how the AC and Gog can die 2 different deaths and still be the same person, then it is much more likely that 2 different individuals are being described.

As it does appear that Gog and the AC are 2 separate indivuduals who are pictured somewhat similarly, my thought is that there could be deception and confusion as to who is who. If Gog comes on the scene first, he could be seen as the AC and many would believe the AC had come and gone after Gog's death. The AC would then have less resistance to proclaiming himself messiah, he would come after the supposed AC had already been eliminated.

We need to look at scripture as objectively as possible, if the scripture indicates a difference we should try to understand why. As far as the nationality of the AC, i believe he could be from a ME background, he could even be Jewish.

[Spirit]

This is a great discussion..

I too, am of the mindset that Isaiah 17 will occur before gog/magog, but be directly linked to the ezekiel 38-39 invasion. So..I see the destruction of damascus as the starting point for gog/magog. I have highlighted points from scripture which have helped me arrive at this idea..

Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city,
And it will be a ruinous heap.
2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken;[a]
They will be for flocks
Which lie down, and no one will make them afraid.
3 The fortress also will cease from Ephraim,
The kingdom from Damascus,
And the remnant of Syria;
They will be as the glory of the children of Israel,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
4 “ In that day it shall come to pass
That the glory of Jacob will wane,
And the fatness of his flesh grow lean.
5 It shall be as when the harvester gathers the grain,
And reaps the heads with his arm;
It shall be as he who gathers heads of grain
In the Valley of Rephaim.
6 Yet gleaning grapes will be left in it,
Like the shaking of an olive tree,
Two or three olives at the top of the uppermost bough,
Four or five in its most fruitful branches,”
Says the LORD God of Israel.
7 In that day a man will look to his Maker,
And his eyes will have respect for the Holy One of Israel.

At the end of this passage of Isaiah 17, it says in that day, man will look to his Maker and will have RESPECT FOR THE HOLY ONE of Israel.

Ezekiel 38:15 Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them
riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. 16 "You will come up against My people Israel like a
cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may
know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes." Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I
will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the LORD."

Similar language, but profound IMO. both events, Isaiah 17 and Gog/Magog scriptures speak to people recognizing, respecting, and knowing God Almighty through the process of these events unfolding.

Unless I am mistaken, few in this world respect the Lord and few recognize Him and His authority/sovereigty...so isaiah 17/gog/magog events both lead many actually recognize the Lord and respect Him. I am assuming this doesn't happen in such a profound way in any other event in the bible...just these two.

I hope I am making sense..I am a bit rushed, so this may not have been communicated well.

I just see a common denominator in both Isaiah 17 and Ezekiel 38-39,but I see Isaiah 17 happening first as Syria is not specifically mentioned in the battle of gog/magog.

[good4u]

Well, 1whowaits you have company w/Spirit as you both see the city of Damascus being destroyed BEFORE the Gog invadetor attacks Israel. This is just new info for me and I see no contridiction in Scripture to show otherwise. So then IF Israel attacks Iran as most on this board expects possibly as soon as August...how does Damascus come into play here to be destroyed? Any ideas? It will have to be soon because we do not have long to wait...I don't think.

[1whowaits]

Spirit, i would agree that the description in Isa 17 of men looking to God could associate the destruction of Damascus with Gog-Magog. Also Isa 17 states- 'This is the portion of those who loot us, the lot of those who pluder us.' The same terminology is used in Ezek 38 for Gog who comes to loot and plunder Israel.

Also Jer 49 describes the destruction of Damascus and includes a reference to Elam, which is in Iran. While there are no other references to Iran being present at the destruction of Damascus, Iran is listed with the armies of Gog, possibly associating Gog with Damascus.

[Spirit]

I sure wish I knew what exactly would initiate Isaiah 17....just over the past year, there have been quite a few moments that could have been the trigger...in my opinion....all the tension/hostility in Lebanon could explode beyond just a few heated exchanges, Golan Heights seems to be a significant issue which may be the trigger...I also know that Syria has hundreds of missiles pointed at Israel prepared for a strike (unless this has changed since late 2007).

We all know that Israel attacked Syria last year as well and bombed a clandestine nuke facility. Syria pretty much dropped off the radar screen for a while in an attempt to clean that up (and perhaps quietly prepare for a massive retaliation). They did vow retaliation, but it has been eerily quiet.

You can just feel the intensity and volatility of that region..it is extaordinary...but what is even more extraordinary, is that God is keeping things subdued for the most part. I honestly am shocked that things aren't in all out war by now...God has not allowed things to explode just yet.

But..soon He will allow things to unfold, and it is anyone's guess what will be the trigger...all I know is that it is quite obvious that the height of the tension is where it needs to be for anything to happen...it's all a matter of when God will release His restrictions.

[SueAnn]

I sure wish I knew what exactly would initiate Isaiah 17....just over the past year, there have been quite a few moments that could have been the trigger...in my opinion....all the tension/hostility in Lebanon could explode beyond just a few heated exchanges, Golan Heights seems to be a significant issue which may be the trigger...I also know that Syria has hundreds of missiles pointed at Israel prepared for a strike (unless this has changed since late 2007).

We all know that Israel attacked Syria last year as well and bombed a clandestine nuke facility. Syria pretty much dropped off the radar screen for a while in an attempt to clean that up (and perhaps quietly prepare for a massive retaliation). They did vow retaliation, but it has been eerily quiet.

You can just feel the intensity and volatility of that region..it is extaordinary...but what is even more extraordinary, is that God is keeping things subdued for the most part. I honestly am shocked that things aren't in all out war by now...God has not allowed things to explode just yet.

But..soon He will allow things to unfold, and it is anyone's guess what will be the trigger...all I know is that it is quite obvious that the height of the tension is where it needs to be for anything to happen...it's all a matter of when God will release His restrictions.

Isaiah 17

1 An oracle concerning Damascus:
"See, Damascus will no longer be a city
but will become a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer will be deserted
and left to flocks, which will lie down,
with no one to make them afraid.

3 The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim,
and royal power from Damascus;
the remnant of Aram will be
like the glory of the Israelites,"
declares the LORD Almighty.

4 "In that day the glory of Jacob will fade;
the fat of his body will waste away.

5 It will be as when a reaper gathers the standing grain
and harvests the grain with his arm—
as when a man gleans heads of grain
in the Valley of Rephaim.

6 Yet some gleanings will remain,
as when an olive tree is beaten,
leaving two or three olives on the topmost branches,
four or five on the fruitful boughs,"
declares the LORD, the God of Israel.

7 In that day men will look to their Maker
and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel.

8 They will not look to the altars,
the work of their hands,
and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles [a]
and the incense altars their fingers have made.

9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.

10 You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
Therefore, though you set out the finest plants
and plant imported vines,

11 though on the day you set them out, you make them grow,
and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud,
yet the harvest will be as nothing
in the day of disease and incurable pain.

12 Oh, the raging of many nations—
they rage like the raging sea!
Oh, the uproar of the peoples—
they roar like the roaring of great waters!

13 Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters,
when he rebukes them they flee far away,
driven before the wind like chaff on the hills,
like tumbleweed before a gale.

14 In the evening, sudden terror!
Before the morning, they are gone!
This is the portion of those who loot us,
the lot of those who plunder us.

[1whowaits]

Good4u and Spirit, while it appears that the destruction of Damascus preceeds Gog-Magog and may be a lead in to it, there may be something else that preceeds the destruction of Damascus that is suggested in Isa 17- 'The fortified city will disappear from Ephriam and the royal power from Damascus....in that day the glory of Jacod will fade; the fat of his body will waste away...'

It would appear that at the time of the destruction of Damascus a city in Israel is destroyed, it 'disappears'. The city is located in Ephriam, and while Ephriam is a tribe of Israel it is also a term used to refer to the northern kingdom of Israel in general, located in the northern section of the land of Israel. At this time the largest city in the northern part of Israel is Tel Aviv, and this is where most of the missles of Syria and Lebanon and Iran are pointed. Most of the missles possesed by Syria and Hezbollah and Hamas are short range and cannot reach deep into Israel, so Tel Aviv is the largest city within reach of these missles. Iran has some medium range missles, but it is not clear how accurate they are, and if they were fired at Jerusalem, they could destroy muslim holy sites and kill muslims civilians.

Tel Aviv could meet the description of a 'fortified' city, it has in its suburbs the ancient city of Joppa, which has been called a fortified city. The name Tel Aviv, or Tel Abib, means 'hill of grain', and it is interesting that Isa 17 describes the gathering of grain after describing the 'disappearance' of the city from Israel.

Also Isa 17 appears to suggest some destruction in Israel at the time of the destruction of Damascus. Isa 17 states that the 'glory of Jacob will fade' and the 'fat' or mass of his body will 'waste away', perhaps suggesting that there will be loss of life in Israel.

If a city in Israel 'disappears' it is most likely that a nuclear weapon is used as it is unlikely any conventional weapon could make a city 'disappear'. If a nuclear weapon were used on a city in Israel, a likely response would be a nuclear attack on the city of the attacker, which is consistent with the destruction of Damascus, which is made a 'heap of ruins.'

That a nuclear attack may be the mode of destruction of Damascus is suggested in Isa 17- 'the cities of Aroer will be deserted and left ot the flocks, which will lie down with none to make them afraid...in that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.'

The cities of Aroer are to the southeast of Damascus, in Jordan, and there is no mention of them being attacked and yet they are described as being deserted with the livestock remaining. This could be consistent with the abandonment of cities due to nuclear fallout, the people would leave in a hurry and their goods and livestock would remain, the cities would be uninhabited by people for a period of time. And certainly all being desolation would be an acurrate description of a nuclear exchange.

Also the book of Joel appears to describe an attack on Israel prior to Gog-Magog. Joel 2 describes an attack on Israel by a northern army that God defeats, and then God pours out His Spirit on Israel, which is consistent with the description of Gog-Magog in Ezekiel.

Prior to that Joel 1 describes an attack on Israel- 'a nation has invaded my land, poerful and without number...'. In this attack the crops and trees are destroyed, buildings are in ruins, and open fields and pastures are set on fire. This could be consistent with a missle attack on Israel and in fact some of this did happen in the Lebanon war 2 years ago.

The missles fired against Israel are largely unguided so they are not accurately aimed and they can land anywhere. In the previous missle war the missles exploded in fields and forests setting them on fire and endangering livestock. Since that time the enemies of Israel have built up their missle stockpiles to a much greater level which if launched would likely cause the type of destruction described in Joel 1.

It would appear that Israel is attacked prior to Gog-magog and that attack may result in the destruction of Damascus. The type of destruction described for Damascus and the fortified city of Ephriam would be consistent with the use of nuclear weapons and their resulting devastation.

And it appears that the attack described in Joel 1 may have some association with the month of AV, the month of mourning and destruction. Whether Israel will attack Iran first or Iran, Syria and Lebanon will attack Israel first is not mentioned in scripture. But it would appear that there will be a future, devastating attack in Israel that will result in the destruction of Damascus and likely culminate in the battle of Gog-Magog.

[Exit40]

It seems we are much in agreement that Damascus is destroyed by Israel, but I am beginning to see it differently. I know I am a bit odd in my interpretations of Scripture, I just see things differenently sometimes.

So I am beginning to wonder if it is Israel that destroys Damascus.

Isa 17:3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts.

If the fortified city that is destroyed is Tel Aiv, as 1whowaits suggests, then it would appear both cities are destroyed at the same time. Would this be a nuclear exchange between Iran and Israel ? If so, then Iran would have nukes in order to use them. The other theory I am trying to postulate is that both cities and surrounding areas are destroyed by Gog, whom I now believe is the AC, and also the islamic mahdi. In order for these cities to be destroyed simultaeously, there would have to be peace agreement between certainly Syria and Israel, and possibly also Egypt in the same vein. By this I think what I mean is that Syria ans Egypt will not agree to give their power to the Ac, they will want to honor the peace agreement, and will be destroyed by him while he is on his way to Jerusalem to establish his caliphate.

Isa 17:12 ¶ Woe to the multitude of many people, [which] make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, [that] make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

sa 17:13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but [God] shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

Isa 17:14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; [and] before the morning he [is] not. This [is] the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

These passages seem to indicate the attack of gog/magog to me, which I also believe is the battle art Armageddon, where the Lord destroys them in their place.

There is so much to the islamic paradigm/theory that has to be addressed, this is justs a small portion of it.

God Bless

David

[Seeker]

Here's a research paper on the subject of Turkey identified as Gog. I have researched and found very similar results as the author lists.

Peace,
Seeker

----------------------------------------------------------------

"SUMMARY

It has been shown on the basis of exegesis, hermeneutics, linguistics, and historical anthropology that, 1) Gomer cannot be Germany but rather Gimarrai, 2) Meshech cannot be Moscow but Mushki, 3) Tubal is not Tobol'sk but Tabal, 4) Gog is probably a personage, 5) Magog is unidentifiable except as a general reference ("land of Gog") to Asia Minor, 6) rosh is not a reference to a place but is to be translated "chief" or "head," and 7) the terms "north parts" and "north quarters" cannot mean Russia but, within Ezekiel's frame of reference, refer to modern Turkey.

What Ezekiel prophesied, then, is an end-time battle involving the following nations coming against Israel: 1) Turkey (Meshech, Tubal, Magog[?], Gomer, Togarmah; 2) Iran (Persia), 3) Sudan (Ethiopia or Cush), and 4) Libya.


FURTHER CONSIDERATIONS

Concerning Turkey

Precisely why Turkey (Anatolia, Asia Minor) is set forth in Ezekiel's prophecy under four names (Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Togarmah) cannot be determined. Perhaps it points to some future political break-up of that area. Perhaps it is simply to clearly specify that the entire nation or land will be involved: west (Meshech), Central (Gomer), and east (Tubal and Togarmah).


Concerning the Nations Involved--And Those Who are Not

With Turkey, Iran, Libya and Sudan, Gog leads an Islamic coalition of nations against Israel: Turkey from the north, Iran from the east, Libya from the west and Sudan from the south.

Note also the nations who are (surprisingly!) absent: Egypt and Syria. Why? The only plausible answer is that they both have somehow been relegated to an inferior position militarily. This fits nicely into Daniel chapter 11 with both the King of the North (Syria) and the King of the South (Egypt) being destroyed by Antichrist.

View endnotes.

Copyright 1996 Fred Zaspel"

http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/e ... zekiel.htm

[good4u]

And it appears that the attack described in Joel 1 may have some association with the month of AV, the month of mourning and destruction. Whether Israel will attack Iran first or Iran, Syria and Lebanon will attack Israel first is not mentioned in scripture. But it would appear that there will be a future, devastating attack in Israel that will result in the destruction of Damascus and likely culminate in the battle of Gog-Magog.

As informative as this post was, 1whowaits, your last paragraph is telling regarding current events, IMO. The tension is so high in the ME it seems you can cut it w/a knife. Even Dr. Solana is taking the whole month of August off to "vacation'! We are on the verge of having a nuclear exchange in the ME and Solana vacations? Either he knows something we don't or we are dead wrong. Any hare-trigger event could spin the entire peace process into collapsing and an all out nuclear exchange "could" happen! It is unbelieveable and how totally unaware Americans are in the deadliness of what is at stake and how we are at a cross-roads in prophetic end-times.

At this time, it is Iran that is the greatest threat to Israel more so than US interests abroad--tho' that is serious too. If Israel does a unilateral strike against Iranian nuclear facilities and Iran retaliates either directly hitting Tel Aviv or by using Syria as their agent, knowing Israel took out Syrian nuclear facilites, how would Syria accomplish striking Israel? I don't see the the logistics here for Syria to attack by nuclear methods for Israel to return fire by nuking Damascus? Thus, fulfulling Isaiah 17 for Damascus to be destroyed now. Can you help?

[good4u]

It seems we are much in agreement that Damascus is destroyed by Israel, but I am beginning to see it differently. I know I am a bit odd in my interpretations of Scripture, I just see things differenently sometimes.

So I am beginning to wonder if it is Israel that destroys Damascus.

Isa 17:3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts.

If the fortified city that is destroyed is Tel Aiv, as 1whowaits suggests, then it would appear both cities are destroyed at the same time. Would this be a nuclear exchange between Iran and Israel ? If so, then Iran would have nukes in order to use them. The other theory I am trying to postulate is that both cities and surrounding areas are destroyed by Gog, whom I now believe is the AC, and also the islamic mahdi. In order for these cities to be destroyed simultaeously, there would have to be peace agreement between certainly Syria and Israel, and possibly also Egypt in the same vein. By this I think what I mean is that Syria ans Egypt will not agree to give their power to the Ac, they will want to honor the peace agreement, and will be destroyed by him while he is on his way to Jerusalem to establish his caliphate.

Isa 17:12 ¶ Woe to the multitude of many people, [which] make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, [that] make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

sa 17:13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but [God] shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

Isa 17:14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; [and] before the morning he [is] not. This [is] the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

These passages seem to indicate the attack of gog/magog to me, which I also believe is the battle art Armageddon, where the Lord destroys them in their place.

There is so much to the islamic paradigm/theory that has to be addressed, this is justs a small portion of it.

God Bless

David

David and 1whowaits seem to agree that it is indeed Israel who destroys Damascus. So you see the Islamic Mahdi as the AC? Then how is it the Jews initally embrace him as their Jewish Messiah? Oh wait! Maybe he keeps his identity hidden from everyone just as Revelation states until he declares himself "God" in the Jewish temple! Is this what you are referring to?

You might be on to something that the false muslim theology of the 12th Iman establishing a Muslim world empire could be the false religion that the false prophet uses to get the world to worship the AC! Got it!

Thanks for your valuable input...this disucssion is getting better and better...any other thoughts!

[good4u]

Here's a research paper on the subject of Turkey identified as Gog. I have researched and found very similar results as the author lists.

Peace,
Seeker

----------------------------------------------------------------

"SUMMARY

It has been shown on the basis of exegesis, hermeneutics, linguistics, and historical anthropology that, 1) Gomer cannot be Germany but rather Gimarrai, 2) Meshech cannot be Moscow but Mushki, 3) Tubal is not Tobol'sk but Tabal, 4) Gog is probably a personage, 5) Magog is unidentifiable except as a general reference ("land of Gog") to Asia Minor, 6) rosh is not a reference to a place but is to be translated "chief" or "head," and 7) the terms "north parts" and "north quarters" cannot mean Russia but, within Ezekiel's frame of reference, refer to modern Turkey.

What Ezekiel prophesied, then, is an end-time battle involving the following nations coming against Israel: 1) Turkey (Meshech, Tubal, Magog[?], Gomer, Togarmah; 2) Iran (Persia), 3) Sudan (Ethiopia or Cush), and 4) Libya.


FURTHER CONSIDERATIONS

Concerning Turkey

Precisely why Turkey (Anatolia, Asia Minor) is set forth in Ezekiel's prophecy under four names (Meshech, Tubal, Gomer and Togarmah) cannot be determined. Perhaps it points to some future political break-up of that area. Perhaps it is simply to clearly specify that the entire nation or land will be involved: west (Meshech), Central (Gomer), and east (Tubal and Togarmah).


Concerning the Nations Involved--And Those Who are Not

With Turkey, Iran, Libya and Sudan, Gog leads an Islamic coalition of nations against Israel: Turkey from the north, Iran from the east, Libya from the west and Sudan from the south.

Note also the nations who are (surprisingly!) absent: Egypt and Syria. Why? The only plausible answer is that they both have somehow been relegated to an inferior position militarily. This fits nicely into Daniel chapter 11 with both the King of the North (Syria) and the King of the South (Egypt) being destroyed by Antichrist.

View endnotes.

Copyright 1996 Fred Zaspel"

http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/e ... zekiel.htm

You are not the first person to say that Gog is Turkey. Also the Southern republics in Russia just below the Black Sea and just North of Turkey (I call them the "stans" because all their names in in that) are Muslim and they too could be w/Gog from the "land of Magog." Indeed, this is very possible.

[1whowaits]

Good4u, it would appear that it is Israel that destroys Damascus as Isa 17 states-'In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites...', the Israelites are the reason those under attack leave their cities.

As far as the weaponry of Syria, Syria does have missles of an advanced SCUD type which can easily reach Tel Aviv. The Syrians have armed many of these missles with chemical warheads, VX gas, which could cause severe casualities in Israel. Syria also appears to retain the WMD of Saddam, which could include some nuclear material as well as chemical and biological weapons.

It does appear likely that Iran already has a few nuclear weapons in its possession. It has be rumored and assumed for some time that Iran obtained some from the former Russian republics, and they may have obtained some from A Q Kahn's network, and who knows what has gone on with their North Korean involvement. Even if Iran does have a few nuclear weapons, if they wish to engage Israel, who has upwards of 100 nuclear weapons, they likely want more weapons to ensure Israel's complete destruction, so they are working toward that end.

But if there were a confrontation, if Israel attacked Iran's nuclear sites, or if Hezbollah or Syria attacked Israel with chemical weapons and Israel responded massively, Iran might deploy whatever few nuclear weapons it had against Israel. And Iran does not have to attack Israel directly with a missle, they just have to give the weapons to Hezbollah or Hamas who can fire it from Lebanon (or just sail it into port on a ship or fire it from the Med). And Israel has stated that if it is attacked from Lebanon by WMD, Israel will hold Damascus responsible (the nuclear weapons could not necesarily be tracked back to Iran if made in Russia, NK, or Pakistan).

The stage is set, this scenario could occur at any time. And when it does we should not assume that we will escape unscathed, likely the US will be attacked in some form also.

[1whowaits]

Exit 40, it does apear that the destruction of Damascus and Gog are linked, but they are also separate as Syria is not included in the list of nations at Gog-magog (and they should be there). And while the destruction of the city in Ephriam and the destruction of Damascus are described together, it does not appear plausible that Israel would destroy Damascus without a major provocation before hand. And it does appear that it is Israel who does the destroying as the cities are abandoned because of Israel- 'their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites...' Isa 17.

Also it would appear unlikely that Gog and the AC are the same individual as Gog is killed and buried in a mass grave while the AC is cast alive into the lake of fire. Also if Gog and the AC were the same individual then armageddon and Gog-Magog should be the same battle. Prior to Gog in Ezek, Israel is living in saftey in her land, while prior to armageddon Israel is in the wilderness protected by God or in Jerusalem being attacked and taken into captivity according to Zech 14. This would suggest that Gog and armageddon are 2 separate battles.

[Triton57]

While it is possible for Gog to occur this year, it appears that there is an event that occurs prior to Gog. In the list of nations at Gog-magog in Ezek, the nations immediately surrounding Israel, the ones most likely to attack Israel at this time, are conspicuously absent. But these nations, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Gaza (and perhaps Egypt), are described at the destruction of Damascus in Isa 17, Amos 1, Zech 9, Jer 49.

Isa 17 appears to make an association between the destruction of Damascus and Gog-magog, with Damascus occurring first. It would appear that the next event is the destruction of Damascus, which does not appear far off at this time.

And while it does appear that Gog-magog occurs after Damascus, it is not clear how long after Damascus' destruction Gog takes place. From Isa 17 it may be that Damascus occurs in the spring or summer, while from Joel 2 Gog appears to occur in the fall, while not necessarily in the same year.

I agree that it seems that the destruction of Damascus occurs before Gog/Magog although I believe that the reaction would happen sooner rather than later. And considering Syria's defense agreement with Iran and Russia's clear involvement in arming the Middle East, the alliances seem in place for the Magog invaders to be brought against Israel with hooks in their jaws. What's even more interesting is that Israel has clarified that it will hold Damascus responsible for Hezbollah's actions meaning that they could possibly be the hair trigger for starting the whole series of events that leads to the invasion. Israel has threatened Damascus before and we saw last September when they took out Syria's reactor project.

Given the research I found regarding Israel's judgment history pointing to the possibility of the 70th week beginning on Rosh Hashanah 2005, this summer would be the last time before the timing of the abomination of desolation in which to occur. Considering the convergence of events for that conclusion, I'm anticipating something this summer or fall. While it seems almost impossible for everything to come together between now and the beginning of next year, there are also many things that confirm to me that it is entirely possible. From the news regarding the Middle East alliances (here and here) to stories of a prefabricated temple and all the instruments, I don't see anything that would prevent the possibility unless nothing happens this year. Time will tell...

Regarding the ENP, Daniel 9:27 doesn't say that peace comes as a result of the confirmed covenant, just that the future prince of the Romans that destroyed Jerusalem (revived Rome-fourth kingdom) confirms a covenant with many for seven years (one week). Is that the reason for peace or is it just the framework to which everyone will turn once the parties are serious about it? I think Israel is serious now, but they're working with those unafraid to work at her destruction. I think we could see that mood change after God intervenes on their attack of Israel such that the framework of the ENP will be the means by which Islam will finally come to the table to wink and nod at peace.

[Triton57]

This is a great discussion..

I too, am of the mindset that Isaiah 17 will occur before gog/magog, but be directly linked to the ezekiel 38-39 invasion. So..I see the destruction of damascus as the starting point for gog/magog. I have highlighted points from scripture which have helped me arrive at this idea..

Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city,
And it will be a ruinous heap.
2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken;[a]
They will be for flocks
Which lie down, and no one will make them afraid.
3 The fortress also will cease from Ephraim,
The kingdom from Damascus,
And the remnant of Syria;
They will be as the glory of the children of Israel,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
4 “ In that day it shall come to pass
That the glory of Jacob will wane,
And the fatness of his flesh grow lean.
5 It shall be as when the harvester gathers the grain,
And reaps the heads with his arm;
It shall be as he who gathers heads of grain
In the Valley of Rephaim.
6 Yet gleaning grapes will be left in it,
Like the shaking of an olive tree,
Two or three olives at the top of the uppermost bough,
Four or five in its most fruitful branches,”
Says the LORD God of Israel.
7 In that day a man will look to his Maker,
And his eyes will have respect for the Holy One of Israel.

At the end of this passage of Isaiah 17, it says in that day, man will look to his Maker and will have RESPECT FOR THE HOLY ONE of Israel.

Ezekiel 38:15 Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them
riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. 16 "You will come up against My people Israel like a
cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may
know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes." Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I
will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the LORD."

Similar language, but profound IMO. both events, Isaiah 17 and Gog/Magog scriptures speak to people recognizing, respecting, and knowing God Almighty through the process of these events unfolding.

Unless I am mistaken, few in this world respect the Lord and few recognize Him and His authority/sovereigty...so isaiah 17/gog/magog events both lead many actually recognize the Lord and respect Him. I am assuming this doesn't happen in such a profound way in any other event in the bible...just these two.

I hope I am making sense..I am a bit rushed, so this may not have been communicated well.

I just see a common denominator in both Isaiah 17 and Ezekiel 38-39,but I see Isaiah 17 happening first as Syria is not specifically mentioned in the battle of gog/magog.

That's an interesting connection I had not noticed before, thank you! I agree that the Magog invasion will follow soon after the destruction of Damascus. It just seems that if Ahmadinejad is spilling the beans about the soon demise of Israel that preparations must be in progress to arrive at that goal. While they are brought with hooks in their jaws against Israel, I think its safe to say that is their ultimate goal anyways.

I think that we will have a great opportunity to witness after this event with clear fulfillment of Bible prophecy and opportunity to share what else is going on that many people don't realize yet. I can also see the attitude in Israel shifting dramatically to spur the rebuilding of the temple after this as well.

Also, another interesting connection of the Gog/Magog attack as being after the destruction of Damascus comes at the end of the chapter...

Ezekiel 38:10-12
Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

Ezekiel 38:18-23
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother. And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Isaiah 17:12-14
Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind. And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

[savedbygrace]

But how can Israel 'know their God', yet commit such an abomination as to rebuild their temple and re-institute the animal sacrifices???

They can't, IMO. It doesn't go hand in hand with knowing Jesus.

I think the rebuilding of the temple will be done prior to Gog/Magog. Possibly some kind of agreement brought on by none other than JS himself.

[Spirit]

Thank you Triton..I have learned so much from you, I am glad I have offered something back...

Last November, the Lord prompted me to write three articles...one was on Isaiah 17, the other on the islamic confederation (gog/magog), and the other on peace and safety...I emailed them to my contact list. I was not really sure about sending them out because I think I know less about gog/magog and Isaiah 17 than other prophecies, but it is stunning how things have developed since then with regards to these two events.

I pray that the Lords will be done, and that if indeed these two events unfold in the very near future, that we will be able to reach lost souls for Him. If we are here to witness them, it will be almost surreal for those of us who are watching and expecting because we know God's word...can you imagine how in awe we are going to be when we actually witness the Lord's Word find its fulfillment? wow...and I agree Triton, it will be an incredibly powerful witnessing tool....

May His will be done..

[Triton57]

But how can Israel 'know their God', yet commit such an abomination as to rebuild their temple and re-institute the animal sacrifices???

They can't, IMO. It doesn't go hand in hand with knowing Jesus.

I think the rebuilding of the temple will be done prior to Gog/Magog. Possibly some kind of agreement brought on by none other than JS himself.

Ezekiel 39:21-29
And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid. When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

I don't read this a Israel will know the Lord their God intimately from that day forward, rather as it says Israel will know that He is the Lord their God. Currently I would say the majority of Israel don't take God a seriously as others, much like the church today. They're world-focused choosing to identify themselves with God in name and tradition. There is a lack of faith as well I'm sure much like the church today as well. However, when Bible prophecy is fulfilled clearly in such a way that God defends Israel as prophesied by an Old Testament prophet 2,500 years ago, I think they will turn from a secular state identified with a God-given name to a possibly religious state according to what they do know, tradition of their forefathers and the daily sacrifice.

Whether or not one views the temple and the daily sacrifice as detestible or not isn't really relevant in my view because the Bible says it will happen. I don't think that scripture stating fact necessarily condones it, just a statement of fact. There will be a temple without an outer court (never happened historically and unlike Ezekiel's temple 40-48) and a daily sacrifice will be stopped and worship will be demanded to one other than the One True God causing the abomination of desolation.

The process of God leading Israel to really know Him through Yeshua isn't immediate and I believe that is why Israel is refined through the fire of God's wrath in the wilderness. They may not know the fulness of their God when He intervenes on their behalf as promised (for His namesake), but that event will begin the process of refinement by making it clear that the God of their forefathers does exist and keeps His promises. They will know that He is the Lord their God, even if they don't fully know the Lord their God through the atoning blood of Yeshua the Messiah.

[mrgravyard49]

I find it very interesting that some on here believe the 70th week began Jan 1 07 and some Sept 1995..
Ok.. Interesting..

[Spirit]

I don't have a dogmatic position on any one conclusion.

I see merit for about three arguments...the best evidence I see supports a pre-wrath rapture, but I can see some merit to the traditional pre-trib argument. I also feel very strongly that the 70th week started on 1/1/07, but I am also open to the fact that it has not.

I prefer to be open and not sold on one position..

I appreciate the opportunity to examine scripture and discuss things with believers from all perspectives...

side track..sorry..

[ACfrom Turkey]

Reading Ezekiel 38-39 from the viewpoint that there will be the setting up of the abomination of desolation at the midpoint of the 70th week, followed by the great tribulation, followed by the day of the Lord encompassing the battle of Armageddon....

Eze 38:1 And the word of the LORD came to me saying,
Eze 38:2 "Son of man, set your face toward Gog of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him
Eze 38:3 and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal. (NASB)

verse 2 is translated incorrectly as the word "rosh" should be translated as chief or head of as in Rosh Hashanah. So Gog is the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Any old map will show that Meshech and Tubal are located in present day Turkey. Magog is: 2) the mountainous region between Cappadocia and Media http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?dic ... word=Magog

Cappadocia is in Turkey and Media is just south southwest of the Caspian sea.

So the land of Gog is in the mountainous region in the area of turkey, northern iraq, and possible western iran and Gog is the cheif prince of areas located in Turkey.

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Eze 38:5 Persia, Ethiopia and Put with them, all of them {with} shield and helmet;
Eze 38:6 Gomer with all its troops; Beth-togarmah {from} the remote parts of the north with all its troops--many peoples with you.

Iran to the east, Ethiopia and Put to the south, and gomer and Beth-togarmah of the north--in relation to Israel follow Gog to attack Israel. Israel is surrounded.

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Eze 38:8 "After many days you will be summoned; in the latter years you will come into the land that is restored from the sword, {whose inhabitants} have been gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel which had been a continual waste; but its people were brought out from the nations, and they are living securely, all of them.

This is a time spoken of to occur in the latter years against Israel, who is living securely at the time. It is my opinion that Israel will not be living securely, AT REST, and living without walls, bars, or gates until they make a covenant with the muslim nations surrounding them.

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Eze 38:11 and you will say, 'I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will go against those who are at rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls and having no bars or gates,
Eze 38:12 to capture spoil and to seize plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places which are {now} inhabited, and against the people who are gathered from the nations, who have acquired cattle and goods, who live at the center of the world.'


Where else have we seen that Israel is spoiled and plundered in the end days?

Zec 14:1 ¶ Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.


Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.



Zec 2:8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye.


Jer 30:16 'Therefore all who devour you will be devoured; And all your adversaries, every one of them, will go into captivity; And those who plunder you will be for plunder, And all who prey upon you I will give for prey.


Dan 11:24 "In a time of tranquility he will enter the richest {parts} of the realm, and he will accomplish what his fathers never did, nor his ancestors; he will distribute plunder, booty and possessions among them, and he will devise his schemes against strongholds, but {only} for a time.


Dan 11:33 "Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will fall by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder for {many} days.

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Eze 38:13 "Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish with all its villages will say to you, 'Have you come to capture spoil? Have you assembled your company to seize plunder, to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to capture great spoil?' '"

I only point this verse out because there is always much speculation about the spoil that Gog caomes to take--some say water, oil that is found, etc...but this verse tells us what some of the spoil is.

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Eze 38:16 and you will come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. It shall come about in the last days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog."


This occurs in the last days. I guess there is some freedom in how people interpret "last days" but I believe it to be the time of the 70th week.

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Eze 38:17 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Are you the one of whom I spoke in former days through My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied in those days for {many} years that I would bring you against them?


This is a key verse in that Gog is the one who was spoken about in former days by the prophets (Daniel, Isaiah, Joel, etc...) The only person I know that is specifically spoken about by the prophets in regards to the last days is the Antichrist.

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Eze 38:18 "It will come about on that day, when Gog comes against the land of Israel," declares the Lord GOD, "that My fury will mount up in My anger.


"on that day" does not mean the 24 hour day that we think of but rather refers to a time period. Notice this is when God gets extremely angry...

remember Revelation 6


Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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Eze 38:19 "In My zeal and in My blazing wrath I declare {that} on that day there will surely be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.
Eze 38:20 "The fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all the creeping things that creep on the earth, and all the men who are on the face of the earth will shake at My presence; the mountains also will be thrown down, the steep pathways will collapse and every wall will fall to the ground.


Notice everything and everyone will shake at His presence. I don't recall reading anywhere in Scripture about the presence of God prior to His coming. The description also matches the 6th seal of Revelation 6 quite well:

Rev 6:12 ¶ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

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Eze 38:21 "I will call for a sword against him on all My mountains," declares the Lord GOD. "Every man's sword will be against his brother.

compare to


Zec 14:13 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.


Hag 2:22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.

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Eze 38:22 "With pestilence and with blood I will enter into judgment with him; and I will rain on him and on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, a torrential rain, with hailstones, fire and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 "I will magnify Myself, sanctify Myself, and make Myself known in the sight of many nations; and they will know that I am the LORD.'"


compare to

the trumpet judgments of Revelation

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Eze 39:7 "My holy name I will make known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let My holy name be profaned anymore. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.


He will not let His holy name be profaned any more...certaintly this does not occur prior to the 70th week.

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Eze 39:8 "Behold, it is coming and it shall be done," declares the Lord GOD. "That is the day of which I have spoken.


What is the day of which He has spoken?

The day of the Lord

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Eze 39:9 "Then those who inhabit the cities of Israel will go out and make fires with the weapons and burn {them,} both shields and bucklers, bows and arrows, war clubs and spears, and for seven years they will make fires of them.
Eze 39:10 "They will not take wood from the field or gather firewood from the forests, for they will make fires with the weapons; and they will take the spoil of those who despoiled them and seize the plunder of those who plundered them," declares the Lord GOD

They will burn the weapons for fire because they won't need weapons anymore...

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

When will they spoil them that spoiled them?

Hab 2:8 Because thou hast spoiled many nations, all the remnant of the people shall spoil thee;

Zep 2:9 Therefore [as] I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, [even] the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.

Zec 14:1 ¶ Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.


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Eze 39:11 "On that day I will give Gog a burial ground there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea, and it will block off those who would pass by. So they will bury Gog there with all his horde, and they will call {it} the valley of Hamon-gog.

This verse is a stumbling block for many on the issue of Gog being another name for the Antichrist.

Hamon-gog means the multitude of gog. I believe this valley to be the same valley as that of Meggido.

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Eze 39:17 "As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, "Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 "You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as {though they were} rams, lambs, goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 "So you will eat fat until you are glutted, and drink blood until you are drunk, from My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 "You will be glutted at My table with horses and charioteers, with mighty men and all the men of war," declares the Lord GOD.


compare to


Rev 19:17 ¶ And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.

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Eze 39:22 "And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward.

And we still insist on this being pre 70th week?


Eze 39:28 "Then they will know that I am the LORD their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them {again} to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer.
Eze 39:29 "I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD.


compare to


Jer 30:22 'You shall be My people, And I will be your God.' "
Jer 30:23 Behold, the tempest of the LORD! Wrath has gone forth, A sweeping tempest; It will burst on the head of the wicked.
Jer 30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has performed and until He has accomplished The intent of His heart; In the latter days you will understand this.


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There are way too many issues to by pass in attempting to show that Gog is not the AC.

[1whowaits]

2 people or events that appear similar do not have to be the same. Just because Gog and the AC have some minor similarities they are not necessarily the same person, especially if they clearly die 2 different deaths. If anything is being over looked it is the unresolvable differences noted in scripture between Gog and the AC.