2 witnesses=2 lampstands=2 olive branches

[Pretzelogical]

http://expressright.com/wits.aspx

Two witnesses = two lampstands = two churches = two olive branches
VERY Interesting!

[dshemjo]

Rev 11:3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.

But "two churches"? I'm not seeing that one.

[Abiding in His Word]

From the link:

Thus we conclude that the two witnesses are the two churches, Philadelphia and Smyrna, demonstrating the priestly and kingly function, composed exclusively of the tribes of Israel

Philadelphia and Smyrna are therefore two lampstands (ethnic Jewish churches) that stand and exhibit characteristics of the priestly and kingly offices (the two olive trees).

He also seems to place great importance on the representation of the office of king. But scripture is clear that the system of kings was never God's desire and He recognized it as a rejection of His rule over His people. So imo, it would make no sense for God to represent this office as a witness in any capacity.

[Pretzelogical]

(Jesus holds the right to the throne of David because he is the adopted son of Joseph in the lineage of David.
Jesus holds the right to be our High Priest because His true Father is God, so as He is.
Jesus as King and High Priest are two witnesses that Jesus is the Messiah.
Moses and Aaron, representative and priest, wre two witnesses with signs to Pharaoh, and then took the people to meet with God.)

Rev. 11 uses the singular forms of “mouth” and “body” in the original Greek. (Noted in the NASB) A group of people are a “body” of people with one “mouth”.
It does not seem likely God would say the two men spoke with their mouth (singular) and then later say fire comes from their mouths. (plural)
Praise God for Bible scholars to help us with translation! This one letter “s” takes the whole prophesy way off course.
So two groups of believers are the two witnesses.

Have I go this right?
Two witnesses = triumphant woman (Rev. 13) = 144,000 believing Jews (Rev. 14) taken as firstfruits from the temple. Gentil believers wait outside while Israel is measured and raptured as firstfruits. Symrna and Philadelphia, the only synagogues who received one of the seven letters to the churches = firstfruits. Therefore, Symrna and Philadelphia are the firstfruits, two witnesses, two lampstands and two olive branches.

[dshemjo]

I don't think Revelation or any other part of the scriptures needs this much "interpretation." I think it pretty much means what it says and usually it interprets itself, so that even a "young man" (Psalm 119:9) can understand it.

Rev. 11 uses the singular forms of “mouth” and “body” in the original Greek. (Noted in the NASB) A group of people are a “body” of people with one “mouth”.

Rev 11:10 And those who dwell on the earth {will} rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

I don't think we're talking about two groups here. Sounds like individuals to me.

Two witnesses = triumphant woman (Rev. 13) = 144,000 believing Jews (Rev. 14) taken as firstfruits from the temple. Gentil believers wait outside while Israel is measured and raptured as firstfruits. Symrna and Philadelphia, the only synagogues who received one of the seven letters to the churches = firstfruits. Therefore, Symrna and Philadelphia are the firstfruits, two witnesses, two lampstands and two olive branches.

When I read Revelation, I don't see any of that, because it doesn't say any of that....except that the two witnesses=two lampstands=two olive branches. It doesn't state or even imply that they are the same as the triumphant woman or the 144,000 or the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia. Why can't we just believe that the Bible means what it says? Why do we have to go digging in the Greek for some singular/plural issue and then try to start a sensational new doctrine off it? No wonder many Christians shy away from prophecy discussions. I say if you couldn't have seen it on your own, without the help of these "scholars" than it probably isn't the intended meaning.

Praise God for Bible scholars to help us with translation!

1Jo 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

Praise God for the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who leads us into all truth and who inspired the writers of the of the Bible to give us the Word of God in clear, understandable written language so that even the young man can live according to it, in spite of what the "Bible scholars" might have you think.

Psa 119:9 How can a young man keep his way pure?
By living according to your word.

[Pretzelogical]

I appreciate your response! The book of Revelation is too important to get it wrong! We are well aware of how Jesus' first coming was misunderstood by most of those who were given the truth about His coming. I cannot rely on the traditions of men for God said a great apostasy will preclude His coming. I do not fear not following what everyone else has said about the book.

It was refreshing to *hear* you say even the children can understand it. That is the thought in my mind continually, and it has kept me searching the book of Revelation daily since Jan. first of this year. The author's interpretation I posted, to me, is the first one that follows just what the scriptures say without having to add and decipher, and is easy enough for me to make sense of it all, for the first time. Other schools of thought fall apart in my hands as I try to hold onto them to put them in order. That is why I never wanted to study prophesy. It meant so many things to so many people, and I never could follow a single one of them without finding a verse that was forced in a way contrary to other scriptures.

For a child to understand, there must be only a few parts. Those part must be presented repeatedly. The parts must be explained in how they are like other things familiar to the child. Once the child can put together the few simple parts, then the child can begin to understand the intricate parts of one of the simple parts. Then the child can go to the second simple part and see how it is put together. Though the simple parts are made of numerous intricate parts, the child does not have to understand the intricate parts in order to understand how to put the few simple parts of thoughts together. I am looking for those few simple parts. Then I will look at the inticate parts. Yes, when looking at the simple parts and the intricate parts, scripture will define scripture.

Some of the simple parts of Revelation are a woman, two prophets, and a beast/beasts. It isn't literally one woman, so it may not be literally two prophets either. This is reasonable and does not violate scripture. It completely violates the traditions of men in these times of increased apostasy and falling away. Big red flag for me. I would be an unfaithful fool to ignore the original language, and must rely on Greek scholars. If the inspired Greek is singular, then that is meaningful and shall stand.

I have much more studying to do, obviously, and appreciate you coming alongside to examine this part of the puzzle! Lord, grant us wisdom, and do not allow us to quench the Spirit that can guide us into all truth!

Lisa

[Mttw633]

Read Is 43 for your answer: While I have read another thread concerning Israel/Jacob/Edom/Zion there is a portion of truth to it, I don't agree with the edom portion, but feel that we as christians are a part of Israel. And no, it's not replacement theology. Anyway, here's part of the chapter-
Here's a portion:
Isaiah 43
Israel's Only Savior
1 But now, this is what the LORD says—
he who created you, O Jacob,
he who formed you, O Israel:
"Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have summoned you by name; you are mine.


5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you;
I will bring your children from the east
and gather you from the west.

6 I will say to the north, 'Give them up!'
and to the south, 'Do not hold them back.'
Bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the ends of the earth-

7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."

8 Lead out those who have eyes but are blind,
who have ears but are deaf.

9 All the nations gather together
and the peoples assemble.
Which of them foretold this
and proclaimed to us the former things?
Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,
so that others may hear and say, "It is true."

10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.

12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.

13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he.
No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can reverse it?"




18 "Forget the former things;
do not dwell on the past.

19 See, I am doing a new thing!
Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?
I am making a way in the desert
and streams in the wasteland.



22 "Yet you have not called upon me, O Jacob,
you have not wearied yourselves for me, O Israel.

23 You have not brought me sheep for burnt offerings,
nor honored me with your sacrifices.
I have not burdened you with grain offerings
nor wearied you with demands for incense.

24 You have not bought any fragrant calamus for me,
or lavished on me the fat of your sacrifices.
But you have burdened me with your sins
and wearied me with your offenses.

25 "I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more.

26 Review the past for me,
let us argue the matter together;
state the case for your innocence.

27 Your first father sinned;
your spokesmen rebelled against me.

28 So I will disgrace the dignitaries of your temple,
and I will consign Jacob to destruction [c]
and Israel to scorn.

[Pretzelogical]

Thank you for posting the scripture. I can see where that would speak clearly to you that the witnesses are Jews. True, I see no prophetic verse of the gentiles being saved in that passage.
However, since I memorized a part of the passage a few years ago, I have pondered it repeatedly! My thoughts always go to Jesus saying to the disciples that "you are my witnesses", "I chose you" as "slaves", "believe in Me", "before Abraham, I AM", "I am the Alpha and Omega", "do not be deceived by one coming after me". This verse 10 pretty well sums up Jesus message to the gentiles "so that we may know and believe". The same use of words speaks to me loudly that the two witnesses are Jewish and Gentile believers. I will be in much prayer now that you have brought this to light as THE two witnesses. And for your singing *pleasure*

(v.10 Sung to an adaptation of the tune, "Silent Night", with a skippy beat.)
You are my witnesses, (silent night)
declares the LORD, (holy night)
and my servant (all is calm)
whom I have chosen, (all is bright)
so that you-oo may know and believe ('round...and child)
and understa-and that I-i am he. (Holy Infant....mild)
Before me no god was formed, (sleep...peace)
nor will there be one after me. (sleep...peace)

...yeah...not so great, but this is how I memorize verses. Pathetically weak mind, I know. Praise God who blesses my efforts by bringing His word to my heart in these songs all day long! The fast tempo comes from singing while I work and the adding of so many more syllables to each line.

I do not want anyone, including myself to hear me sing aloud. God is patient, indeed!

I will be prayerfully considering your application of all of this passage.
Thanks again!

[Mttw633]

You're welcome! That's a nifty way to memorize, I grew up on Schoolhouse Rock.

[Pretzelogical]

That's a nifty way

How kind of you! Many thanks!

I am trying to memorize Psalm 119
http://singthescriptures.blogspot.com/

[Mttw633]

I can see where that would speak clearly to you that the witnesses are Jews. True, I see no prophetic verse of the gentiles being saved in that passage.

Yes there's no saying that gentiles=Israel in that passage. But I think most often times people read Judah and/or Jacob and in the same chapter as when God uses Israel and then they generally equate it as meaning the same thing. (it's not) Angus and Ruth Wootten are great authors and insightful in these matters. Off the top of my head in Hosea God commands him to marry an adulterous wife as representative of Israel. And she gives birth and God tells him what to name them.
Jezreel=and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel
Lo-Rummah= For I will no longer show love to the house of Israel, yet I will show love to the house of Judah; and I will save them.
Lo-Ammi=for you are not my people, and I am not your God; yet the Israelites will be like the sand of the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. (Rom 9:26, 1 Peter 2:10) In the place where it was said to them' you are not my people, they will be called 'sons of the living God.' The people of Judah and the people of Israel will be reunited, and they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.

The birthright was given down the line from Jacob (Israel) to Joseph to Ephraim (meaning double fruit)(Gen 48:19-20). But they would be known as Israel. God divorces his people (hos 2:2) we become 'not a people of God' -gentiles, but then heals them and loves them (Hos 2:16, 14:4)through our kinsman redeemer, Jesus Christ. Jacob (Israel) said of Ephraim that his descendants will become a group of nations.
group (multitude):
H4393
מלו מלוא מלא
melô' melô' melô
mel-o', mel-o', mel-o'
From H4390; fulness (literally or figuratively): - X all along, X all that is (there-) in, fill, (X that whereof . . . was) full, fulness, [hand-] full, multitude.

Nations:
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.