Sue.....
A lot of prophecies are all run together.....and only at the time can it be understood
Most of Israel believed when the Kingdom of God came....that that was like the end.....or finished.....
They did not undersand God's Plan of Salvation......nor the Kingdom of God....
They thought when Jesus came..the Messiah....That he was going to set up a Natural Kingdom like David....
They did not realize that the Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom.....
Not seen by the Natural eyes but by the Spiritual eyes.....
The Kingdom of God is within you......Jesus rules in the Hearts of Man..by His Holy Spirit....
Jesus said...the Kingdom comes not with observation....
The Kingdom of God is with in you....
He taught in Parables....
They did not understand the New Birth....
The Spiritual Birth
Until we are born again of the Spirit...
We cannot understand the Kingdom of God.....
bb
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Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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question about 7 year peace treaty
150 posts • Page 2 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
by IamtheWalrus on Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:20 am
All we have based on the 7 year tribulation is Dan 9:27. However, no where in that verse to we see the word tribulation, rebuilt temple. Now I agree that after pondering and looking through the word, that Why would the 70 weeks be split up? And then it came to me.....they weren't.
The followed successively.
Some points to consider:
The prophecy of “seventy weeks” means seventy straight sequential weeks. There is no example in Scripture of a time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references to time are consecutive: 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:4), 400 years in Egypt (Genesis 15:13), and etc.
The 70th week follows immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn’t, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week.
It is illogical IMO to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and 70th week?
Daniel 9:27 says nothing about any “tribulation,” “rebuilt” Jewish temple, or “antichrist.” there...or am I wrong?
Daniel 9:24-27’s focus is the Messiah. After the Messiah is “cut off” (referring to Christ’s death), “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” This refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70. That is concurrent with most of our beliefs.
“He shall confirm the covenant.” Now here is the meat of the debate.
Paul said “the covenant” was “confirmed before by God in Christ” Galatians 3:17
And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Jesus Christ came “to confirm the promises made to the fathers”
Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
The word “covenant” is Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah, not antichrist.
“He shall confirm the covenant with many.” Jesus said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many…”
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically.
Also in Jer 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah
Mark 14:24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.
“In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice…to cease.”
After 3 ½ years of ministry, Jesus Christ’s death put an end to all sacrifices in God’s sight. He is the final Sacrifice!
“For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate”
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It was abominable for the Jewish leaders to put God’s Son to death. This ended their temple. Jesus predicted, “Your house is left to you desolate” Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
The 70 weeks applied to the Jewish people
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Christ’s public ministry lasted 3 ½ years during which His focus was “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
After His resurrection and then for another 3 ½ years, His disciples preached mostly to Jews
Acts 1-6
1 - The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 - Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 - To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 - And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.
5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 - When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
When the Jewish Sanhedrin stoned Stephen in 34 AD (see Acts 7)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/ ... ts%207#top
the gospel shifted to the Gentiles
Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
exactly as prophecy predicted.
The followed successively.
Some points to consider:
The prophecy of “seventy weeks” means seventy straight sequential weeks. There is no example in Scripture of a time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references to time are consecutive: 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:4), 400 years in Egypt (Genesis 15:13), and etc.
The 70th week follows immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn’t, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week.
It is illogical IMO to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and 70th week?
Daniel 9:27 says nothing about any “tribulation,” “rebuilt” Jewish temple, or “antichrist.” there...or am I wrong?
Daniel 9:24-27’s focus is the Messiah. After the Messiah is “cut off” (referring to Christ’s death), “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” This refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70. That is concurrent with most of our beliefs.
“He shall confirm the covenant.” Now here is the meat of the debate.
Paul said “the covenant” was “confirmed before by God in Christ” Galatians 3:17
And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Jesus Christ came “to confirm the promises made to the fathers”
Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
The word “covenant” is Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah, not antichrist.
“He shall confirm the covenant with many.” Jesus said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many…”
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically.
Also in Jer 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah
Mark 14:24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.
“In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice…to cease.”
After 3 ½ years of ministry, Jesus Christ’s death put an end to all sacrifices in God’s sight. He is the final Sacrifice!
“For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate”
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It was abominable for the Jewish leaders to put God’s Son to death. This ended their temple. Jesus predicted, “Your house is left to you desolate” Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
The 70 weeks applied to the Jewish people
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Christ’s public ministry lasted 3 ½ years during which His focus was “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
After His resurrection and then for another 3 ½ years, His disciples preached mostly to Jews
Acts 1-6
1 - The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 - Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 - To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 - And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.
5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 - When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
When the Jewish Sanhedrin stoned Stephen in 34 AD (see Acts 7)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/ ... ts%207#top
the gospel shifted to the Gentiles
Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
exactly as prophecy predicted.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
-
IamtheWalrus - Posts: 1946
- Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:14 pm
- Location: The people's republic of Seattle
by Mrs. B on Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:39 am
The Temple was destroyed in 70AD because it was finished....
Animal sacrifice ceased....
It was about 35 years after Jesus died that the Temple was destroyed by the Roman Goverment.....but this was God's will
Now Jesus is seated at the Fathers Right Hand....
Remember Stephen saw Jesus Standing at the Right Hand of God....
Acts 7:47......But Solomon built him an house....
HOWBEIT......THE MOST HIGH DWELLETH NOT IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS; As saith the Prophet,
49.....Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool:
what house will ye build me? saith the Lord:
or what is the place of my REST?
50....Hath not my hand made all these things?
NOW....
Paul wrote to the Gentile Church...I Corin.....
I Corinthians 3:16........Know ye not that ye are THE TEMPLE OF GOD,
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17.....If any man defile the Temple of God, Him shall God destroy;
for the Temple of God is Holy, WHICH TEMPLE YE ARE.
THEN....
I Corinthians 6:19.....WHAT? Know ye not that your Body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and Ye are Not your Own?
20....FOR YE ARE BOUGHT WITH A PRICE:
Therefore Glorify God in Your Body, and in Your Spirit, Which are God's...
Ok....
This is the New Covenant that Jesus Brought to the Jews first then to the hold World.....
When we are Born Again......WE Never Die......
We are in the Eternal Kingdom.....and this World is Not our Home....
We are His Witness in our Generation.....
This Gospel is to be Preached to all the World...
He who Believes, Repents and is Baptised in Water, and the Holy Ghost....
and the Baptism of Suffering......Hebrews 6: 2....Of the Doctrine of BAPTISMS.....pluro....and the laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment....
We are made New...
Jesus Made a New Covenant.....
Now at the end......the last week
He shall Confirm.....Confirm the Covenant with many for one week....
This is for all the world......but especially for the Jews...the short work
will be done on this earth....
Look at Rev.....1260 days....time time and a half....2300 days
but this time is cut short....
Jesus ministery was for 3 1/2 years...
and the end of this new covenant will end when He comes Again....
In Daniel He sees the Beginning and the End....
Only Born Again Believers will see and understand....
Jesus said.......If it were Possible Even the Very Elect would be deceived....
We Must Go Back to the Word....
David said
Ps. 22:30.....A Seed shall Serve Him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a Generation.....
When we are Born of God we are that Seed.......accounted for a Generation...
To be absent from the body....is to be present with the Lord....A Generation that will never die....
God reveals to His body the Church the end times.....
but many will be deceived with false teachings.....that is why we must just study the written word........
bb
Animal sacrifice ceased....
It was about 35 years after Jesus died that the Temple was destroyed by the Roman Goverment.....but this was God's will
Now Jesus is seated at the Fathers Right Hand....
Remember Stephen saw Jesus Standing at the Right Hand of God....
Acts 7:47......But Solomon built him an house....
HOWBEIT......THE MOST HIGH DWELLETH NOT IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS; As saith the Prophet,
49.....Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool:
what house will ye build me? saith the Lord:
or what is the place of my REST?
50....Hath not my hand made all these things?
NOW....
Paul wrote to the Gentile Church...I Corin.....
I Corinthians 3:16........Know ye not that ye are THE TEMPLE OF GOD,
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17.....If any man defile the Temple of God, Him shall God destroy;
for the Temple of God is Holy, WHICH TEMPLE YE ARE.
THEN....
I Corinthians 6:19.....WHAT? Know ye not that your Body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and Ye are Not your Own?
20....FOR YE ARE BOUGHT WITH A PRICE:
Therefore Glorify God in Your Body, and in Your Spirit, Which are God's...
Ok....
This is the New Covenant that Jesus Brought to the Jews first then to the hold World.....
When we are Born Again......WE Never Die......
We are in the Eternal Kingdom.....and this World is Not our Home....
We are His Witness in our Generation.....
This Gospel is to be Preached to all the World...
He who Believes, Repents and is Baptised in Water, and the Holy Ghost....
and the Baptism of Suffering......Hebrews 6: 2....Of the Doctrine of BAPTISMS.....pluro....and the laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment....
We are made New...
Jesus Made a New Covenant.....
Now at the end......the last week
He shall Confirm.....Confirm the Covenant with many for one week....
This is for all the world......but especially for the Jews...the short work
will be done on this earth....
Look at Rev.....1260 days....time time and a half....2300 days
but this time is cut short....
Jesus ministery was for 3 1/2 years...
and the end of this new covenant will end when He comes Again....
In Daniel He sees the Beginning and the End....
Only Born Again Believers will see and understand....
Jesus said.......If it were Possible Even the Very Elect would be deceived....
We Must Go Back to the Word....
David said
Ps. 22:30.....A Seed shall Serve Him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a Generation.....
When we are Born of God we are that Seed.......accounted for a Generation...
To be absent from the body....is to be present with the Lord....A Generation that will never die....
God reveals to His body the Church the end times.....
but many will be deceived with false teachings.....that is why we must just study the written word........
bb
- Mrs. B
- Posts: 1911
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm
by Mrs. B on Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:59 am
Jesus is the Builder of the Temple......
Zech. 6:12.......And Speak unto Him, Saying...
Thus speaketh the Lord of Hosts, saying, BEHOLD THE MAN WHOSE NAME IS THE BRANCH........;
and he shall Grow Up Out of His Place, and He Shall BUILD THE TEMPLE
OF THE LORD:
13....Even He shall Build THE TEMPLE OF THE LORD;
And He Shall BEAR the GLORY, and shall sit and rule Upon HIS THRONE:
And He shall be A PRIEST Upon His Throne:
and the Counsel of Peace shall between them both.....
Jesus is Seated at the Right Hand of God.....making intercession for us the Believers...
He is Our High Priest.....
His Blood cleanses us from all sin....
We have His Holy Spirit Living in us...
They that are lead by the Holy Spirit of God are the Children of God....
bb
Zech. 6:12.......And Speak unto Him, Saying...
Thus speaketh the Lord of Hosts, saying, BEHOLD THE MAN WHOSE NAME IS THE BRANCH........;
and he shall Grow Up Out of His Place, and He Shall BUILD THE TEMPLE
OF THE LORD:
13....Even He shall Build THE TEMPLE OF THE LORD;
And He Shall BEAR the GLORY, and shall sit and rule Upon HIS THRONE:
And He shall be A PRIEST Upon His Throne:
and the Counsel of Peace shall between them both.....
Jesus is Seated at the Right Hand of God.....making intercession for us the Believers...
He is Our High Priest.....
His Blood cleanses us from all sin....
We have His Holy Spirit Living in us...
They that are lead by the Holy Spirit of God are the Children of God....
bb
- Mrs. B
- Posts: 1911
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm
by Sue-M on Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:17 pm
Mrs. B wrote:Sue.....
A lot of prophecies are all run together.....and only at the time can it be understood
Most of Israel believed when the Kingdom of God came....that that was like the end.....or finished.....
They did not undersand God's Plan of Salvation......nor the Kingdom of God....
They thought when Jesus came..the Messiah....That he was going to set up a Natural Kingdom like David....
They did not realize that the Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom.....
Not seen by the Natural eyes but by the Spiritual eyes.....
The Kingdom of God is within you......Jesus rules in the Hearts of Man..by His Holy Spirit....
Jesus said...the Kingdom comes not with observation....
The Kingdom of God is with in you....
He taught in Parables....
They did not understand the New Birth....
The Spiritual Birth
Until we are born again of the Spirit...
We cannot understand the Kingdom of God.....
bb
Mrs. B, it is true that Israel missed Jesus because they were looking for a different kind of Messiah and also because they were adding so much onto the law that they stopped really looking at it. But, do you think that's what God intended for them? Do you think that God wanted them to miss Him? If so, why did Jesus weep when He entered Jerusalem? Why did He say, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes." Why did God bother to have the Jews sacrifice a lamb? To put blood on their doorposts in Egypt? God speaks in mystery and parables to keep these things from those that are perishing. Not to keep it from the saved.
And also the Kingdom of God is not just spiritual. Jesus came down to earth in the flesh. And after He was crucified, He walked among them and ate with them. Yes, it is spiritual. But, we are living in the physical and we were created by God to live in this realm. The Earth is mentioned many times in the Bible. I have no idea what you even mean by this.
And I am saved or born-again. So are many people. What does that have to do with this discussion? Are you saying that only those who are born-again will understand what you are teaching?
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Sue-M on Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:46 pm
Mrs. B wrote:
The Temple was destroyed in 70AD because it was finished....
Animal sacrifice ceased....
It was about 35 years after Jesus died that the Temple was destroyed by the Roman Goverment.....but this was God's will
No, the Temple was destroyed 70 years after Jesus was crucified. And actually, it was destroyed because the Jews missed Jesus first return. Not because animal sacrifice was to stop. If the Jews had recognized Jesus, they might have stopped the sacrifice. But, they didn't. They continued for 70 years after that.
------------------
Luke 19:41-44
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it
42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes.
43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.
44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."
Mrs. B wrote:Now Jesus is seated at the Fathers Right Hand....
Remember Stephen saw Jesus Standing at the Right Hand of God....
Acts 7:47......But Solomon built him an house....
HOWBEIT......THE MOST HIGH DWELLETH NOT IN TEMPLES MADE WITH HANDS; As saith the Prophet,
49.....Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool:
what house will ye build me? saith the Lord:
or what is the place of my REST?
50....Hath not my hand made all these things?
NOW....
Paul wrote to the Gentile Church...I Corin.....
I Corinthians 3:16........Know ye not that ye are THE TEMPLE OF GOD,
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17.....If any man defile the Temple of God, Him shall God destroy;
for the Temple of God is Holy, WHICH TEMPLE YE ARE.
THEN....
I Corinthians 6:19.....WHAT? Know ye not that your Body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and Ye are Not your Own?
20....FOR YE ARE BOUGHT WITH A PRICE:
Therefore Glorify God in Your Body, and in Your Spirit, Which are God's...
Ok....
This is the New Covenant that Jesus Brought to the Jews first then to the hold World.....
When we are Born Again......WE Never Die......
We are in the Eternal Kingdom.....and this World is Not our Home....
We are His Witness in our Generation.....
This Gospel is to be Preached to all the World...
He who Believes, Repents and is Baptised in Water, and the Holy Ghost....
and the Baptism of Suffering......Hebrews 6: 2....Of the Doctrine of BAPTISMS.....pluro....and the laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment....
We are made New...
Jesus Made a New Covenant.....
Now at the end......the last week
He shall Confirm.....Confirm the Covenant with many for one week....
This is for all the world......but especially for the Jews...the short work
will be done on this earth....
Look at Rev.....1260 days....time time and a half....2300 days
but this time is cut short....
Jesus ministery was for 3 1/2 years...
and the end of this new covenant will end when He comes Again....
In Daniel He sees the Beginning and the End....
Only Born Again Believers will see and understand....
Jesus said.......If it were Possible Even the Very Elect would be deceived....
We Must Go Back to the Word....
David said
Ps. 22:30.....A Seed shall Serve Him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a Generation.....
When we are Born of God we are that Seed.......accounted for a Generation...
To be absent from the body....is to be present with the Lord....A Generation that will never die....
God reveals to His body the Church the end times.....
but many will be deceived with false teachings.....that is why we must just study the written word........
bb
First of all, do you guys realize that the prophecy in Daniel is only for Israel? Not for the church?
-----------------------
Daniel 9:24
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
-------------------
The "church" looks at this prophecy to try to get an idea of when Jesus is returning and what will be happening on earth before Jesus returns. But, we (the church) know that these things are not pertaining to us.
Mrs. B, you are clearly mixing up whatever scripture you want to form an opinion. And taking all of them completely out of context in doing this.
For instance, you say,
"Look at Rev.....1260 days....time time and a half....2300 days
but this time is cut short....
Jesus ministery was for 3 1/2 years...
and the end of this new covenant will end when He comes Again...."
Let's look at Revelation 12:6
--------------------------
The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
------------------------
This is speaking about a group of people (not saying who so as not to start another dispute) being taken care of for a time period (1,260 days) during the great Tribulation. What does this have to do with Jesus' covenant or ministry or anything that we are talking about?
You say,
"Jesus ministery was for 3 1/2 years...
and the end of this new covenant will end when He comes Again"
Please give me the exact scripture that talks about a 3 1/2 year covenant. I need the scripture to say the words "covenant". Don't add into anything with your own reasoning or thinking. Get me the scripture that says about a specific covenant. And don't give me Daniel, because this is someone who is confirming a covenant of 7 years. This is not saying that God made a new covenant of 7 years. It is saying that someone is only confirming an already existing covenant. So, please show me the covenant.
Mrs. B, I'm going to say this again to you. You are taking one sentence in scripture and making belief out of that one sentence. You cannot do this and this will lead to a wrong interpretation. You need to give the entire scripture and even the sentence before and after. And that is after you have read the entire chapter to get the correct understanding.
And please stop saying that only born-again believers will understand. This is offensive.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Sue-M on Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:41 pm
IamtheWalrus wrote:
All we have based on the 7 year tribulation is Dan 9:27. However, no where in that verse to we see the word tribulation, rebuilt temple. Now I agree that after pondering and looking through the word, that Why would the 70 weeks be split up? And then it came to me.....they weren't.
The followed successively.
This is true. Daniel does not mention the Trib or the temple being rebuilt. But, to say that the last week has already come. When did this happen?
"And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
And to say that this has already happened, is to say that the Millenium period has already happened. And if that's so, where's the peace? Where's the time of rest? The only way you can get to this is to say that this entire prophecy is finished. But, the Jews are still here and they are still (for the most part) counting 7 year periods and are still celebrating Feasts. All of Israel is not saved. I don't know. There is too much against this belief than for it.
IamtheWalrus wrote:Some points to consider:
The prophecy of “seventy weeks” means seventy straight sequential weeks. There is no example in Scripture of a time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references to time are consecutive: 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:4), 400 years in Egypt (Genesis 15:13), and etc.
The 70th week follows immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn’t, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week.
It is illogical IMO to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and 70th week?
Except, that after the prince of the people came and destroyed the Temple, the Jews were scattered throughout the entire earth. And amazingly, they were scattered until 1948. Jesus said that it was because they missed His coming, that they were scattered.
IamtheWalrus wrote:
Daniel 9:27 says nothing about any “tribulation,” “rebuilt” Jewish temple, or “antichrist.” there...or am I wrong?
Daniel 9:24-27’s focus is the Messiah. After the Messiah is “cut off” (referring to Christ’s death), “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” This refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70. That is concurrent with most of our beliefs.
“He shall confirm the covenant.” Now here is the meat of the debate.
Well, some do believe that Daniel is speaking about the AntiChrist. But, you are right. The dispute is mainly with who is the "he" in "He shall confirm the covenant". If we can come to a conclusion as to who this is, we will end this discussion.
This is what I am doing my word study on. Who these three people are, the Messiah, the prince of the people and the "he". It's turning into a huge word study. Hopefully, I can get it up here, lol.
IamtheWalrus wrote:Paul said “the covenant” was “confirmed before by God in Christ” Galatians 3:17
And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
I don't see this in that scripture.
---------------
Galations 3:16-18
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
---------------
What this is saying is that first came Abraham. Then, God made a covenant with Abraham. Then, God gave Moses the Law. Then, Jesus came and fulfilled the Law. So, none of this deletes the first promise that God made to Abraham. This promise or covenant is still in effect.
This is also something that I have in my word study. I need to get this done. But, what was this covenant that God made to Abraham? It was for an inheritence. It was regarding the land and the promise was that this would be for all of Abraham's seed.
Now, I ask, what did Jesus do that confirmed this? What did Jesus do or say that spoke about the land inheritance to Israel? It's true that Jesus opened up this promise to the Gentiles. And this could be the "confirming the covenant with many". But, this entire prophecy in Daniel is directed to the Jews and what has been decreed upon the Jewish nation. So, the confirming of the covenant pertains to the covenant with the Jews. This pertains to the land inheritance.
IamtheWalrus wrote:
Jesus Christ came “to confirm the promises made to the fathers”
Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:
This is speaking about the promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations. This means, the Gentiles are included in this. This is why the Gentiles will be rejoicing. Through Jesus, the Gentiles were included in Abraham's seed. Thus, Abraham is the father of many nations. Not just Israel.
Two parts to the covenant with Abraham.
1. The father of many nations, the seed.
and
2. The land inheritance.
IamtheWalrus wrote:The word “covenant” is Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah, not antichrist.
“He shall confirm the covenant with many.” Jesus said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many…”
Matthew 26:28
For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically.
Also in Jer 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah
Mark 14:24
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.
Take notice, the one sentence that we are discussing.
"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week"
This is a "confirming" not an establishing a new covenant. So, we have to look at the covenants that have been established to see. What covenant that God has established with men, we Jesus confirming? This is also part of the study that I am doing. I'm going to just put it up here unfinished when I am done here.
But Jesus did not confirm a covenant when He came here. He fulfilled the laws. He paid for our sins. He came first for the Jew and then for the Gentile to pay for our sins. But, where does it say that Jesus confirmed a covenant by His coming and dying on the cross?
IamtheWalrus wrote:
“In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice…to cease.”
After 3 ½ years of ministry, Jesus Christ’s death put an end to all sacrifices in God’s sight. He is the final Sacrifice!
It didn't end exactly when Jesus died on the cross. It ended 70 years later Where is the last week in that 70 years?
IamtheWalrus wrote:“For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate”
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It was abominable for the Jewish leaders to put God’s Son to death. This ended their temple. Jesus predicted, “Your house is left to you desolate”
Actually, this "abomination" took place on the wing of the temple. Not on the cross.
IamtheWalrus wrote:
Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
The 70 weeks applied to the Jewish people
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Christ’s public ministry lasted 3 ½ years during which His focus was “the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
After His resurrection and then for another 3 ½ years, His disciples preached mostly to Jews
Acts 1-6
1 - The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 - Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 - To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 - And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me.
5 - For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 - When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
When the Jewish Sanhedrin stoned Stephen in 34 AD (see Acts 7)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Act/ ... ts%207#top
the gospel shifted to the Gentiles
Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
exactly as prophecy predicted.
Now, go back to the beginning of this prophecy.
-------------
Daniel 9:24
"Seventy 'sevens' [c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. [e]
------------
What you are basically saying is that everything here has been fulfilled. Because, you are saying that these entire 70 weeks have been finished.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Sue-M on Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:20 pm
Daniel 9:26-27 (New International Version)
26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "
----------------------------
* What I want to do is break this scripture down into each sentence to try to determine who is being spoken of in each sentence.
------------------------------------------
1. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself
shall Messiah be cut off =
H4899
משׁיח
mâshîyach
maw-shee'-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: - anointed, Messiah.
* This is clear. This is talking about Jesus.
-------------------------------------------
2. And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood.
And the people of the prince =
H5971
עם
‛am
am
From H6004; a people (as a congregated unit); specifically a tribe (as those of Israel); hence (collectively) troops or attendants; figuratively a flock: - folk, men, nation, people.
And the people of the prince =
H5057
נגד נגיד
nâgîyd nâgid
naw-gheed', naw-gheed'
From H5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious; generally (abstract plural), honorable themes: - captain, chief, excellent thing, (chief) governor, leader, noble, prince, (chief) ruler.
* Here we see that it’s the people of the prince that did the destroying of the city and the sanctuary. So, we know that we are not looking for one person, but, people who did the actually destroying. This word “people” can mean either a tribe (like with Israel) or troops or a flock. A group of people.
* On 14 April 70, during Passover (how about that!), Titus (then a Roman General) laid siege to Jerusalem. Later after this, Titus, became the Emperor of Rome. So, we are talking about the “people” of the Roman Empire. And the “prince” here is Titus, the Emperor of the Roman Empire.
* Also, notice how the “prince” is not the same word as the “Messiah”. The “prince” is clearly someone other than the “Messiah”.
----------------------------
3. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.
He shall confirm the covenant with many =
H1396
גּבר
gâbar
gaw-bar'
A primitive root; to be strong; by implication to prevail, act insolently: - exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.
He shall confirm the covenant with many =
H1285
בּרית
berîyth
ber-eeth'
From H1262 (in the sense of cutting (like H1254)); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh): - confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.
* There isn’t a Strong’s number assigned to the word “he” in this scripture (in e-Sword anyway). So, I looked up the words “confirm” and “covenant”. Hoping to get some insight.
* Anyway I thought it was interesting that the “he” here is not making a covenant, but, confirming a covenant. God made a covenant with Abraham (Israel). This person is not making a covenant but, only confirming one that was already made.
What are the covenants that God has made in scripture?
God made a covenant with Noah in Genesis 9. This was a promise to never destroy all life again by flood. God also gave some laws to Noah. But, the actual covenant was about the flood and the sign of this covenant was the rainbow in the sky.
God made a covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15. Now, this covenant was made by the shedding of blood. And this covenant was that Abraham’s offspring would come from his own body and be like the stars in the sky and the covenant was that this offspring would inherit the land that God told to Abraham. (We know it, the Promised Land)
God made a covenant with Abraham in Genesis 17. This was a covenant of circumcision. This was a promise that Abraham will be a father of many nations. God promised that He would be Abraham’s God and the God of many nations. And this was an everlasting promise. A promise for all of eternity. A promise that would never end. Circumcision was the sign of this promise.
God made a covenant with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest. This was an eternal covenant of peace. He and his decedents a covenant of lasting priesthood.
God made a covenant of the Ten Commandments with Moses and Israel. This was the law given to them. We know that the law pointed to Jesus. God told that to obey all the He had commanded them so that it might go well with them and their children forever! Now, this covenant was fulfilled in Jesus.
I didn’t find any other Covenant that God made with any one. It was just Noah, Abraham and Moses.
Noah was not to destroy the earth with a flood.
Abraham was that God would make him the father of many nations and that Abraham’s seed would be like the stars in the sky and that Abrahams’ decendants would inherent the land that God had determined.
And Moses was the laws.
Now, who ever this “he” is in Daniel 9:27, he will be confirming one of these covenants. And if this is Jesus, I just wonder which one of these did Jesus confirm?
I’m very tired.
--------------------------------------
Additional study of the word “covenant” from Daniel 9:27.
In the Old Testament, only one word is used for "covenant" and that is the Hebrew word "Beriyth" (ber-eeth), Strong's No. 1285. Also in the New Testament only one word is used for "covenant", the Greek word "Diatheke" (dee-ath-ay-kay), Strong's No. 1242.
I gave the Strong’s meaning for the Hebrew word “Ber-eeth” No. 1285, above. But, here is the Strong’s meaning for the Greek word “Dee-ath-ay-kay” No 1242
G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.
Unfortunately, the word “covenant” and “testament” have two different meanings. Covenant is a promise for the living. Testament is a promise after death.
But below is a study I found online about this. I put it here because it’s very interesting. In both instances (the Hebrew and the Greek) the word “covenant” refers to the cutting of a covenant or promise established by the shedding of blood.
Did you ever make a promise with someone (as a kid) and both of you mixed your blood to seal the promised? Isn’t this amazing that adding blood to our promises to each other is somehow entrenched in our hearts as kids?
http://www.faithwriters.com/article-details.php?id=4019
Study on the word "Covenant" in the Old And New Testaments
The word "covenant" appears 292 times in the Bible. It is used 272 times in the Old Testament with 8 of these times not having a Hebrew word associated with it. At these times, the word was inserted in the translation usually for clarification. It is used 20 times in the New Testament, 3 of these were editorial insertions for clarification without having a Greek word connected to it. In the Old Testament, only one word is used for "covenant" and that is the Hebrew word "Beriyth" (ber-eeth), Strong's No. 1285. Also in the New Testament only one word is used for "covenant", the Greek word "Diatheke" (dee-ath-ay-kay), Strong's No. 1242.
Analyzing the Hebrew word "Beriyth" we find that it comes from "Barah" (baw-raw) Strong's No. 1262 and a primitive root meaning "to select" in the sense of another primitive root word "Bara" (baw-raw) Strong's No, 1254 that means to create, to cut down. Hence "Beriyth" has the meaning of selectively "cutting a compact" as in passing between pieces of flesh, the exact proscribed manner God chose to proffer a covenant to Abram found in Genesis 15:7-11, 17-18. It also has the meaning of confederacy or covenant and even league as "in league with them". Thus the proper translation of this word all 266 times it appears throughout the Old Testament conveys the meaning of cutting a covenant relationship and implies the shedding of blood in the process (i.e. between pieces of flesh).
The New Testament word for "covenant" is the Greek word Diatheke (1242) which has an interesting etymological history. The definition of Diatheke is a contract (especially a devisory will), a covenant, or a testament. It is derived from 1303 Diatithemai (to put apart) which in turn is derived from Dia (1223) a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act, in very wide applications the idea of through, and Tithemi (5037) a prolonged primary of Theo whose meaning is "to place", properly used to denote in a passive or horizontal posture. Thus, we have the idea conveyed of a covenant that passes through something that was "put apart" and is reposing in a passive or horizontal posture. This is the exact picture found in Genesis 15:17-18 where the halves of the 3 year old heifer, she-goat, and ram are spread apart in a horizontal position while God walks between the halves. Although no mention is made, or alluded to, of shed blood, the imagery (from the Genesis account) seems to connote this.
We see that both the Hebrew word "Beriyth" and the Greek word "Diatheke" meaning covenant have the implied meaning of the shedding of blood in the sense of the "cutting of a covenant"; the Hebrew being much stronger in this implication than is the Greek. In both instances there seems to be the definite portrait of the covenant God proffered to Abram that is found in Genesis 15:7-11, 17-18.
26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "
----------------------------
* What I want to do is break this scripture down into each sentence to try to determine who is being spoken of in each sentence.
------------------------------------------
1. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself
shall Messiah be cut off =
H4899
משׁיח
mâshîyach
maw-shee'-akh
From H4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); specifically the Messiah: - anointed, Messiah.
* This is clear. This is talking about Jesus.
-------------------------------------------
2. And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end thereof shall be with a flood.
And the people of the prince =
H5971
עם
‛am
am
From H6004; a people (as a congregated unit); specifically a tribe (as those of Israel); hence (collectively) troops or attendants; figuratively a flock: - folk, men, nation, people.
And the people of the prince =
H5057
נגד נגיד
nâgîyd nâgid
naw-gheed', naw-gheed'
From H5046; a commander (as occupying the front), civil, military or religious; generally (abstract plural), honorable themes: - captain, chief, excellent thing, (chief) governor, leader, noble, prince, (chief) ruler.
* Here we see that it’s the people of the prince that did the destroying of the city and the sanctuary. So, we know that we are not looking for one person, but, people who did the actually destroying. This word “people” can mean either a tribe (like with Israel) or troops or a flock. A group of people.
* On 14 April 70, during Passover (how about that!), Titus (then a Roman General) laid siege to Jerusalem. Later after this, Titus, became the Emperor of Rome. So, we are talking about the “people” of the Roman Empire. And the “prince” here is Titus, the Emperor of the Roman Empire.
* Also, notice how the “prince” is not the same word as the “Messiah”. The “prince” is clearly someone other than the “Messiah”.
----------------------------
3. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.
He shall confirm the covenant with many =
H1396
גּבר
gâbar
gaw-bar'
A primitive root; to be strong; by implication to prevail, act insolently: - exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.
He shall confirm the covenant with many =
H1285
בּרית
berîyth
ber-eeth'
From H1262 (in the sense of cutting (like H1254)); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh): - confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.
* There isn’t a Strong’s number assigned to the word “he” in this scripture (in e-Sword anyway). So, I looked up the words “confirm” and “covenant”. Hoping to get some insight.
* Anyway I thought it was interesting that the “he” here is not making a covenant, but, confirming a covenant. God made a covenant with Abraham (Israel). This person is not making a covenant but, only confirming one that was already made.
What are the covenants that God has made in scripture?
God made a covenant with Noah in Genesis 9. This was a promise to never destroy all life again by flood. God also gave some laws to Noah. But, the actual covenant was about the flood and the sign of this covenant was the rainbow in the sky.
God made a covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15. Now, this covenant was made by the shedding of blood. And this covenant was that Abraham’s offspring would come from his own body and be like the stars in the sky and the covenant was that this offspring would inherit the land that God told to Abraham. (We know it, the Promised Land)
God made a covenant with Abraham in Genesis 17. This was a covenant of circumcision. This was a promise that Abraham will be a father of many nations. God promised that He would be Abraham’s God and the God of many nations. And this was an everlasting promise. A promise for all of eternity. A promise that would never end. Circumcision was the sign of this promise.
God made a covenant with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest. This was an eternal covenant of peace. He and his decedents a covenant of lasting priesthood.
God made a covenant of the Ten Commandments with Moses and Israel. This was the law given to them. We know that the law pointed to Jesus. God told that to obey all the He had commanded them so that it might go well with them and their children forever! Now, this covenant was fulfilled in Jesus.
I didn’t find any other Covenant that God made with any one. It was just Noah, Abraham and Moses.
Noah was not to destroy the earth with a flood.
Abraham was that God would make him the father of many nations and that Abraham’s seed would be like the stars in the sky and that Abrahams’ decendants would inherent the land that God had determined.
And Moses was the laws.
Now, who ever this “he” is in Daniel 9:27, he will be confirming one of these covenants. And if this is Jesus, I just wonder which one of these did Jesus confirm?
I’m very tired.
--------------------------------------
Additional study of the word “covenant” from Daniel 9:27.
In the Old Testament, only one word is used for "covenant" and that is the Hebrew word "Beriyth" (ber-eeth), Strong's No. 1285. Also in the New Testament only one word is used for "covenant", the Greek word "Diatheke" (dee-ath-ay-kay), Strong's No. 1242.
I gave the Strong’s meaning for the Hebrew word “Ber-eeth” No. 1285, above. But, here is the Strong’s meaning for the Greek word “Dee-ath-ay-kay” No 1242
G1242
διαθήκη
diathēkē
dee-ath-ay'-kay
From G1303; properly a disposition, that is, (specifically) a contract (especially a devisory will): - covenant, testament.
Unfortunately, the word “covenant” and “testament” have two different meanings. Covenant is a promise for the living. Testament is a promise after death.
But below is a study I found online about this. I put it here because it’s very interesting. In both instances (the Hebrew and the Greek) the word “covenant” refers to the cutting of a covenant or promise established by the shedding of blood.
Did you ever make a promise with someone (as a kid) and both of you mixed your blood to seal the promised? Isn’t this amazing that adding blood to our promises to each other is somehow entrenched in our hearts as kids?
http://www.faithwriters.com/article-details.php?id=4019
Study on the word "Covenant" in the Old And New Testaments
The word "covenant" appears 292 times in the Bible. It is used 272 times in the Old Testament with 8 of these times not having a Hebrew word associated with it. At these times, the word was inserted in the translation usually for clarification. It is used 20 times in the New Testament, 3 of these were editorial insertions for clarification without having a Greek word connected to it. In the Old Testament, only one word is used for "covenant" and that is the Hebrew word "Beriyth" (ber-eeth), Strong's No. 1285. Also in the New Testament only one word is used for "covenant", the Greek word "Diatheke" (dee-ath-ay-kay), Strong's No. 1242.
Analyzing the Hebrew word "Beriyth" we find that it comes from "Barah" (baw-raw) Strong's No. 1262 and a primitive root meaning "to select" in the sense of another primitive root word "Bara" (baw-raw) Strong's No, 1254 that means to create, to cut down. Hence "Beriyth" has the meaning of selectively "cutting a compact" as in passing between pieces of flesh, the exact proscribed manner God chose to proffer a covenant to Abram found in Genesis 15:7-11, 17-18. It also has the meaning of confederacy or covenant and even league as "in league with them". Thus the proper translation of this word all 266 times it appears throughout the Old Testament conveys the meaning of cutting a covenant relationship and implies the shedding of blood in the process (i.e. between pieces of flesh).
The New Testament word for "covenant" is the Greek word Diatheke (1242) which has an interesting etymological history. The definition of Diatheke is a contract (especially a devisory will), a covenant, or a testament. It is derived from 1303 Diatithemai (to put apart) which in turn is derived from Dia (1223) a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act, in very wide applications the idea of through, and Tithemi (5037) a prolonged primary of Theo whose meaning is "to place", properly used to denote in a passive or horizontal posture. Thus, we have the idea conveyed of a covenant that passes through something that was "put apart" and is reposing in a passive or horizontal posture. This is the exact picture found in Genesis 15:17-18 where the halves of the 3 year old heifer, she-goat, and ram are spread apart in a horizontal position while God walks between the halves. Although no mention is made, or alluded to, of shed blood, the imagery (from the Genesis account) seems to connote this.
We see that both the Hebrew word "Beriyth" and the Greek word "Diatheke" meaning covenant have the implied meaning of the shedding of blood in the sense of the "cutting of a covenant"; the Hebrew being much stronger in this implication than is the Greek. In both instances there seems to be the definite portrait of the covenant God proffered to Abram that is found in Genesis 15:7-11, 17-18.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Sue-M on Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:29 pm
A major thing that we have to think about also is that this scripture is going like this.
1. The Messiah comes and is "cut off"
2. Then, the Roman army comes and destroyed the temple.
3. Then, "he" confirms a covenant with many for 7 years.
So, it goes Jesus, Roman leader of an army, and then who? Back to Jesus again? Even after Jesus has left the Earth?
1. The Messiah comes and is "cut off"
2. Then, the Roman army comes and destroyed the temple.
3. Then, "he" confirms a covenant with many for 7 years.
So, it goes Jesus, Roman leader of an army, and then who? Back to Jesus again? Even after Jesus has left the Earth?
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Sue-M on Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:52 pm
I almost forgot the thing that I found when I first started this word study.
Okay, so we have the three people in this scripture that I did the study on above.
1. The Messiah
2. The prince of the people
3 The "he" that confirms the covenant
The first we don't dispute is Jesus, the Messiah.
The second he (the prince of the people), is determined to be (Titus) from the Roman Empire.
So, the "he" in #3 above, would either be the Messiah or a ruler from the Roman Empire.
It seems more reasonable to assume that the "he" in #3 would be the person that was spoken about just above it. And we are seeing this happening right now today. With what this whole board is about. With Herb finding the revived "Road Map to Peace" that was signed on January 2007. And I believe it was confirmed when all the countries of the Middle East got together at Annapolis Maryland this past year. And it's being renewed by the EU, which is the Revived Roman Empire. And this also goes along with the ten toes in the dream that Daniel interpreted for Nebuchadnezzar.
The spirit of the AntiChrist is in the leader of the Roman Empire.
Otherwise, if we see this "he" in #3 as Jesus, we have to give new interpretation to so many scriptures it just not funny.
Now, I am not going into any interpretation of scripture with a stiff neck. I am open to whatever happens. And I know that we are close. And as things start to happen, these prophecies will become very clear.
Okay, so we have the three people in this scripture that I did the study on above.
1. The Messiah
2. The prince of the people
3 The "he" that confirms the covenant
The first we don't dispute is Jesus, the Messiah.
The second he (the prince of the people), is determined to be (Titus) from the Roman Empire.
So, the "he" in #3 above, would either be the Messiah or a ruler from the Roman Empire.
It seems more reasonable to assume that the "he" in #3 would be the person that was spoken about just above it. And we are seeing this happening right now today. With what this whole board is about. With Herb finding the revived "Road Map to Peace" that was signed on January 2007. And I believe it was confirmed when all the countries of the Middle East got together at Annapolis Maryland this past year. And it's being renewed by the EU, which is the Revived Roman Empire. And this also goes along with the ten toes in the dream that Daniel interpreted for Nebuchadnezzar.
The spirit of the AntiChrist is in the leader of the Roman Empire.
Otherwise, if we see this "he" in #3 as Jesus, we have to give new interpretation to so many scriptures it just not funny.
Now, I am not going into any interpretation of scripture with a stiff neck. I am open to whatever happens. And I know that we are close. And as things start to happen, these prophecies will become very clear.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Mrs. B on Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:51 pm
Hi Sue.....
The he is Jesus....the Messiah
The Prince of the People is the devil
Satan manifest himself in evil men.....
Matt. 4:8........
If satan had no power to tempt Jesus with offering him the world....
then it would not have been a temptation....
8.....Again, the Devil taketh Him (Jesus) up into an exceeding High Mountain, and sheweth Him (Jesus) all the Kingdoms of the world, and the Glory;
9.....And saith unto Him (Jesus), All These Will I Give Thee, If thou wilt Fall Down and worship me....
10.....Then saith Jesus unto him, Get Thee hence, Satan:
for it is written, Thou Shalt worship the Lord Thy God, and Him Only shalt thou serve......
Satan had the power to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if He would Fall Down and worship him (satan)....
This would not have been a Temptation if it were Not True......
When Adam sin......satan took away the authorty from Adam, and he (satan) became the god of this world......
Jesus came and defeated satan and took back the Keys of Death, Hell and the Grave.........By His Blood Covenant we now have been restored....and Now have Life eternal by our Faith in Jesus.....Satan has been defeated....
A covenant is by the shedding of Blood......Jesus shedded His Blood and made a Covenant with All Who Will Believe that He is the Son of God....and by His Blood Sacrifice he has bought us back from the power of sin.......
A Blood Covenant
And He (Jesus) shall Confirm.....the Covenant
To confirm means it already excist....
From the moment He died.....and accented into the heart of the earth....then he accended into Heaven....presented His Blood to the Father...
And
Our sin debt was Paid.....
Jesus said.....Go to Jerusalem and Wait for the PROMISE OF THE FATHER....The Holy Spirit.......The promise of the Father....
We were dead spiritually now we are made alive by the Promise of the Holy spirit.......New Life.....The God life....lives in us or God in us.....Paul wrote Christ in you....the hope of Glory.....
The Promise of the Father was made in the Garden...In Genises 3...
When God promised to send a seed of woman.....and he Jesus would bruse satans head and satan would bruse His Heel.....
When satan had an Innocent man murdered......He broke God's Law and brought Death upon Himself....The soul that sins it shall die......that is Gods Law........so satan brought death on himself....
Jesus died for us not for himself.....he had never sin....so death had no power over him.....and in three days he arose......
The Blood Covenant has been in effect Before the Foundation of World....Jesus was slane from the foundation of the world.....
Jesus shall confirm the Covenant the last 7 days...with many.....but because of the elects sake it shall be cut short.....
Abraham was not a Jew......He was a Hebrew....
The Promise God made to Abraham is that Jesus would come through His seed.......
Abraham believed God.....
Abraham is now the Father of Many Nations....
The Gospel first went to the Jews.....Jesus was a Jew
then the Gospel went into all the World....to Every Nation
Any one who believed the Gospel in any and every nation was or is Translated into the Kingdom of God...
The Kingdom of God was first preached to the Jew...or the Decidents of Abraham....then to all the world....
We are the Children of Abraham because of Our Faith....
Abraham the Father of Many Nations......we are the Children of Abraham because We Believe God like Abraham Believe God....
The Just Must Live by Faith....we must believe
The church is Now God's Holy People.....but because God made a Promise to Abraham.......God will do a short work with the Jews in this Last Days.......because of the Father's sake, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....
The Jews should have reconized Him.....but they were following mans Traditions.....so when Jesus came they did not reconzie Him....
We are doing the same thing today.....we are following Church Traditions and not the Word.....
So today men are being Deceived just like Jesus said it would be....
We must be Seekers of Truth.....and Follow the Teachings of Jesus not of men......What does the Word say???
This Plan of God was from the Beginning.....we have divided it all up and make it hard.......we follow mens teaching and most of which is not true....
Hear what the spirit is saying to the Church......
Having eyes and seeing not......and having ears and hearing now....
Hear what the spirit is saying to the Church.....
Jesus talks to us as individuals......not as groups....
Jesus said....Peter you follow me......
Peter said....But what about John???
Jesus said......You don't worry about John....YOU Follow me....
bb
The he is Jesus....the Messiah
The Prince of the People is the devil
Satan manifest himself in evil men.....
Matt. 4:8........
If satan had no power to tempt Jesus with offering him the world....
then it would not have been a temptation....
8.....Again, the Devil taketh Him (Jesus) up into an exceeding High Mountain, and sheweth Him (Jesus) all the Kingdoms of the world, and the Glory;
9.....And saith unto Him (Jesus), All These Will I Give Thee, If thou wilt Fall Down and worship me....
10.....Then saith Jesus unto him, Get Thee hence, Satan:
for it is written, Thou Shalt worship the Lord Thy God, and Him Only shalt thou serve......
Satan had the power to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if He would Fall Down and worship him (satan)....
This would not have been a Temptation if it were Not True......
When Adam sin......satan took away the authorty from Adam, and he (satan) became the god of this world......
Jesus came and defeated satan and took back the Keys of Death, Hell and the Grave.........By His Blood Covenant we now have been restored....and Now have Life eternal by our Faith in Jesus.....Satan has been defeated....
A covenant is by the shedding of Blood......Jesus shedded His Blood and made a Covenant with All Who Will Believe that He is the Son of God....and by His Blood Sacrifice he has bought us back from the power of sin.......
A Blood Covenant
And He (Jesus) shall Confirm.....the Covenant
To confirm means it already excist....
From the moment He died.....and accented into the heart of the earth....then he accended into Heaven....presented His Blood to the Father...
And
Our sin debt was Paid.....
Jesus said.....Go to Jerusalem and Wait for the PROMISE OF THE FATHER....The Holy Spirit.......The promise of the Father....
We were dead spiritually now we are made alive by the Promise of the Holy spirit.......New Life.....The God life....lives in us or God in us.....Paul wrote Christ in you....the hope of Glory.....
The Promise of the Father was made in the Garden...In Genises 3...
When God promised to send a seed of woman.....and he Jesus would bruse satans head and satan would bruse His Heel.....
When satan had an Innocent man murdered......He broke God's Law and brought Death upon Himself....The soul that sins it shall die......that is Gods Law........so satan brought death on himself....
Jesus died for us not for himself.....he had never sin....so death had no power over him.....and in three days he arose......
The Blood Covenant has been in effect Before the Foundation of World....Jesus was slane from the foundation of the world.....
Jesus shall confirm the Covenant the last 7 days...with many.....but because of the elects sake it shall be cut short.....
Abraham was not a Jew......He was a Hebrew....
The Promise God made to Abraham is that Jesus would come through His seed.......
Abraham believed God.....
Abraham is now the Father of Many Nations....
The Gospel first went to the Jews.....Jesus was a Jew
then the Gospel went into all the World....to Every Nation
Any one who believed the Gospel in any and every nation was or is Translated into the Kingdom of God...
The Kingdom of God was first preached to the Jew...or the Decidents of Abraham....then to all the world....
We are the Children of Abraham because of Our Faith....
Abraham the Father of Many Nations......we are the Children of Abraham because We Believe God like Abraham Believe God....
The Just Must Live by Faith....we must believe
The church is Now God's Holy People.....but because God made a Promise to Abraham.......God will do a short work with the Jews in this Last Days.......because of the Father's sake, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....
The Jews should have reconized Him.....but they were following mans Traditions.....so when Jesus came they did not reconzie Him....
We are doing the same thing today.....we are following Church Traditions and not the Word.....
So today men are being Deceived just like Jesus said it would be....
We must be Seekers of Truth.....and Follow the Teachings of Jesus not of men......What does the Word say???
This Plan of God was from the Beginning.....we have divided it all up and make it hard.......we follow mens teaching and most of which is not true....
Hear what the spirit is saying to the Church......
Having eyes and seeing not......and having ears and hearing now....
Hear what the spirit is saying to the Church.....
Jesus talks to us as individuals......not as groups....
Jesus said....Peter you follow me......
Peter said....But what about John???
Jesus said......You don't worry about John....YOU Follow me....
bb
- Mrs. B
- Posts: 1911
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm
by Sue-M on Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:56 am
The next problem with the "he" being Jesus and assuming that Jesus caused the sacrifice and offerings to stop, is that the Jews today are desiring with all their might to start sacrificing again. So much so, that they have everything ready. They have the instruments completed. They have identified the lineage of the priests through DNA. They have begun training those priests. They even have the cornerstone ready to go. What Jesus did has not stopped them from wanting to continue to sacrifice. What will you think when they begin doing this again?
And then fear comes over me. Will you believe that the A/C is the Messiah if someone goes into the Temple and stops these sacrifices in the near future? Will you say, see I told you, Jesus has come back to fulfill the last 3 1/2 years.
And then fear comes over me. Will you believe that the A/C is the Messiah if someone goes into the Temple and stops these sacrifices in the near future? Will you say, see I told you, Jesus has come back to fulfill the last 3 1/2 years.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Sue-M on Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:05 am
This might be why Jesus tells us this.
-------------------
Matthew 24:15-28 (New International Version)
15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
-------------------
Matthew 24:15-28 (New International Version)
15 "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
18 Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
23 At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.
25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 "So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Sue-M on Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:09 am
We don't have to look at Daniel to know that the Temple will be rebuilt again, Jesus has told us right here. That in the end times, we will see what Daniel has talked about, the abomination that causes desolation. And Jesus told us when we see this, run for your life! And then Jesus tells us that if anyone is trying to tell us that Jesus has returned, don't believe it. When Jesus returns again it will be like lightening, very clear to see and in the sky.
Jesus said, see I have told you ahead of time.
Jesus said, see I have told you ahead of time.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by dolfseal on Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:10 am
I read a theory that makes a little more sense to me so far and it goes like this:
1. "weeks" refers to the feast of weeks (which makes sense since most events seem to be planned around the feasts of the Bible).
2. 70 "weeks" would translate into 70 years since there is one feast of weeks per year.
3. 70 years from Israel becoming a nation to finish transgression and account for sin.
4. I believe, and correct me on the exact math, that 2009 would be the end of 62 weeks.
5. A seven year agreement from 2009 or 2010, however you place the years, would place the middle to be just after 2012 (which the Mayan calander states will be the end of the age. I state this fact because I see the Mayans to be inspired by Satan and when sign and wonders are performed by the antichrist, many will think it is the return of Christ but it will not be).
I tend to like this theory because it seems that we are almost ready to begin the 7 year agreement, but things are not fully in place yet (almost there though). The two beasts are about ready to take control but some final prep work is still being done.
Go ahead and shoot holes in the theory, thats why I shared it.
1. "weeks" refers to the feast of weeks (which makes sense since most events seem to be planned around the feasts of the Bible).
2. 70 "weeks" would translate into 70 years since there is one feast of weeks per year.
3. 70 years from Israel becoming a nation to finish transgression and account for sin.
4. I believe, and correct me on the exact math, that 2009 would be the end of 62 weeks.
5. A seven year agreement from 2009 or 2010, however you place the years, would place the middle to be just after 2012 (which the Mayan calander states will be the end of the age. I state this fact because I see the Mayans to be inspired by Satan and when sign and wonders are performed by the antichrist, many will think it is the return of Christ but it will not be).
I tend to like this theory because it seems that we are almost ready to begin the 7 year agreement, but things are not fully in place yet (almost there though). The two beasts are about ready to take control but some final prep work is still being done.
Go ahead and shoot holes in the theory, thats why I shared it.
- dolfseal
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:25 pm
- Location: Denver, CO
by Sue-M on Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:08 am
dolfseal wrote:I read a theory that makes a little more sense to me so far and it goes like this:
1. "weeks" refers to the feast of weeks (which makes sense since most events seem to be planned around the feasts of the Bible).
2. 70 "weeks" would translate into 70 years since there is one feast of weeks per year.
3. 70 years from Israel becoming a nation to finish transgression and account for sin.
4. I believe, and correct me on the exact math, that 2009 would be the end of 62 weeks.
5. A seven year agreement from 2009 or 2010, however you place the years, would place the middle to be just after 2012 (which the Mayan calander states will be the end of the age. I state this fact because I see the Mayans to be inspired by Satan and when sign and wonders are performed by the antichrist, many will think it is the return of Christ but it will not be).
I tend to like this theory because it seems that we are almost ready to begin the 7 year agreement, but things are not fully in place yet (almost there though). The two beasts are about ready to take control but some final prep work is still being done.
Go ahead and shoot holes in the theory, thats why I shared it.
Dolfseal, this is wrong right off the bat.
This is the way (in rough terms) the years worked.
7 days (1 week) - They worked for 6 days and on the 7th day they rested. This was the Sabbath day.
7 weeks (a total of 49 weeks) - They worked for 7 weeks (with a Sabbath at the end of each week) and on the 7th week of weeks, they rested that week. This was the Sabbatical Week.
7 years (a total of 490 weeks or 49 years) - They worked for 7 years (with a Sabbath at the end of each week and a Sabbatical Week at the end of each 7 set of weeks). Then, on the 7th year they returned all property, cancelled all debts, etc. This was the Jubilee Year.
I might not be entirely correct, but, this is roughly how I have learned this. They also worked on a lunar calendar (rather than our solar calendar) and they only had 360 days per year in their calendar (rather than the 365 days we have). So, the calculating it out is very difficult for me that is. I am not a math person. But, people have done the detailed calculations.
Anyway, one thing that I can say for sure is that 70 weeks does not equal out to 70 years, like you said in your #2 above. And the 70 weeks in Daniel is 70 sets of 70 weeks. Maybe someone else can give a better explanation. You can look it up on line also. It's not cut and dry. It's very complicated in figuring it out.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by IamtheWalrus on Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:44 pm
Anyway, one thing that I can say for sure is that 70 weeks does not equal out to 70 years
Actually it does. remember Ezekiel 4:6
And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
According to scripture, there is no Peace Treaty, there is no Peace deal with the Israelis. The ENP is just another treaty like the Barcelona Process and The Mediterranean Water Charter. The only thing we need to be watching for is what Jesus referred to in Matt 24:15 which was referring to Daniel 11:36
Not Dan 9:27
And that is a person that stands in the Holy Place and Claims himself above every god.
Dan 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
Dan 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
This is precisely what we should be looking for. Not anything else.
Tribulation has been going on since Adam ate the apple, and after Jesus, tribulation continues for those that claim He is God. Only until the AOD mentioned in Matt 24:15, will we see Great Tribulation.
Last edited by IamtheWalrus on Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by Sue-M on Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:36 pm
You know what, you guys are reading from a different Bible. Some of these ideas that come on these boards are out of this world.
There is such a thing as sound doctrine.
There is such a thing as sound doctrine.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by IamtheWalrus on Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:19 am
Sue-M wrote:You know what, you guys are reading from a different Bible. Some of these ideas that come on these boards are out of this world.
There is such a thing as sound doctrine.
That's is a bold statement Sue. Every piece of scripture I have posted is from the Bible...which one are you using?
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- Location: The people's republic of Seattle
by Salty Skipper on Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:26 am
Sue-M wrote:You know what, you guys are reading from a different Bible. Some of these ideas that come on these boards are out of this world.
There is such a thing as sound doctrine.
1. Our number one rule is from our Lord Himself. We are to love each other, no matter how deeply we may disagree. If we can't even handle each other, how are we going to handle persecution? So, if it can't be said in love, don't say it.
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by Sue-M on Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:54 pm
I didn't say this in anger. I said it because the 70 sevens are clearly speaking about the "calendar" that God gave to Israel (Moses). This is basic Biblical teaching. And any Jew who heard the term seventy-sevens would know exactly what that meant.
On a lot of these debate threads, the ideas that people come up with and the scripture that they use to back it up are not sound teaching. And if anyone points it out to them, they refuse to see it. Or, it's very hard for them to see it. And I just wonder where they were taught God's Word when they first were saved. It's a scarey thing. And I worry about new Christians that might come on here and read it and believe it as truth. I know we are called to handle God's Word correctly. And so, I just felt it was necessary to state that it's not sound teaching.
On a lot of these debate threads, the ideas that people come up with and the scripture that they use to back it up are not sound teaching. And if anyone points it out to them, they refuse to see it. Or, it's very hard for them to see it. And I just wonder where they were taught God's Word when they first were saved. It's a scarey thing. And I worry about new Christians that might come on here and read it and believe it as truth. I know we are called to handle God's Word correctly. And so, I just felt it was necessary to state that it's not sound teaching.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by IamtheWalrus on Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:01 pm
That's why we have the mods Sue, to discern whether or not it is sound doctrine, and in line with the Word of God. Salty is a great one at that.
I am always open for change, and even though this debate I am defending may change tomorrow with further proof, as it did a few weeks ago after years of believing that there was indeed a 7 year peace treaty that kicks off the tribulation.
That is why I am debating it, in order to prove myself wrong. So far, that hasn't happened.
I am always open for change, and even though this debate I am defending may change tomorrow with further proof, as it did a few weeks ago after years of believing that there was indeed a 7 year peace treaty that kicks off the tribulation.
That is why I am debating it, in order to prove myself wrong. So far, that hasn't happened.
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IamtheWalrus - Posts: 1946
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by Salty Skipper on Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:08 pm
IamtheWalrus wrote:That's why we have the mods Sue, to discern whether or not it is sound doctrine, and in line with the Word of God. Salty is a great one at that.
I am always open for change, and even though this debate I am defending may change tomorrow with further proof, as it did a few weeks ago after years of believing that there was indeed a 7 year peace treaty that kicks off the tribulation.
That is why I am debating it, in order to prove myself wrong. So far, that hasn't happened.
Actually...
...the mods are to help discern whether or not the views being discussed are in line with the board's statement of faith. Anything else we post regarding doctrine is usually just our views on things. As long as there aren't any assertions of doctrines that go against the statement of faith, the discussions aren't off limits.-
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by Sue-M on Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:14 pm
Ezekiel 4:6 is not talking about end time events. It cannot be talking about end time events because of this.
Ezekiel 4:13
The LORD said, "In this way the people of Israel will eat defiled food among the nations where I will drive them."
God has said that once Israel returns to their land, they will not be removed from that land ever again. I'm looking for this scripture.
Also, Ezekiel 4 is talking about Israel and Judah.
Today, they are not split. They are one, Israel.
Ezekiel 37:18-23
18 "When your countrymen ask you, 'Won't you tell us what you mean by this?'
19 say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim's hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.'
20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on
21 and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.
22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.
23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, [b] and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
So, Ezekiel 4 cannot be used as a basis for counting 70 "sevens".
I could be wrong, but, I think Daniel is the only time where God used the term "sevens" when giving a date and time of prophecy. God has used the words "years", "days" before. So, why would God give this prophecy in Daniel using the term "seventy-sevens" if He meant to count it as regular days or years? God would have just said, 70 years.
Ezekiel 4:13
The LORD said, "In this way the people of Israel will eat defiled food among the nations where I will drive them."
God has said that once Israel returns to their land, they will not be removed from that land ever again. I'm looking for this scripture.
Also, Ezekiel 4 is talking about Israel and Judah.
Today, they are not split. They are one, Israel.
Ezekiel 37:18-23
18 "When your countrymen ask you, 'Won't you tell us what you mean by this?'
19 say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim's hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.'
20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on
21 and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.
22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.
23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, [b] and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
So, Ezekiel 4 cannot be used as a basis for counting 70 "sevens".
I could be wrong, but, I think Daniel is the only time where God used the term "sevens" when giving a date and time of prophecy. God has used the words "years", "days" before. So, why would God give this prophecy in Daniel using the term "seventy-sevens" if He meant to count it as regular days or years? God would have just said, 70 years.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
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- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Sue-M on Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:49 am
And another thing that I was thinking about. I was waiting for you to answer Iamthewalrus, but, I will forget this if I wait any longer, lol
But, I believe there are 3 times when we see the words "abomination that causes desolation" in Daniel. And Jesus talks about it in Matthew 24. So, are all 3 of these "abominations", in Daniel, the same event? If not, then, why would God us the same phrase to descibe different events. If you think that they are the same event, then, why is Jesus telling us to flee? If this is the event that is connected with Jesus coming back again to finish His last 3 1/2 years? Is Jesus' return going to cause believers to run for the hills?
But, I believe there are 3 times when we see the words "abomination that causes desolation" in Daniel. And Jesus talks about it in Matthew 24. So, are all 3 of these "abominations", in Daniel, the same event? If not, then, why would God us the same phrase to descibe different events. If you think that they are the same event, then, why is Jesus telling us to flee? If this is the event that is connected with Jesus coming back again to finish His last 3 1/2 years? Is Jesus' return going to cause believers to run for the hills?
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by IamtheWalrus on Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:52 am
Sue-M wrote:And another thing that I was thinking about. I was waiting for you to answer Iamthewalrus, but, I will forget this if I wait any longer, lol
But, I believe there are 3 times when we see the words "abomination that causes desolation" in Daniel. And Jesus talks about it in Matthew 24. So, are all 3 of these "abominations", in Daniel, the same event? If not, then, why would God us the same phrase to descibe different events. If you think that they are the same event, then, why is Jesus telling us to flee? If this is the event that is connected with Jesus coming back again to finish His last 3 1/2 years? Is Jesus' return going to cause believers to run for the hills?
Hey Sue-M,
The word "abomination" is in Dan 11:31 and 12:11.
However, we must also consider the term "desolate"
Dan 8:13, 9:17 and 9:27
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily [sacrifice], and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
AEIV plundered Jerusalem, desecrated the Temple and stopped the Jew's daily sacrifice and erected an altar in honor of Zeus. The temple was desecrated when he sacrificed pigs there. According to Jewish law, pigs were unclean and were not touched or to be eaten. To sacrifice a pig in the temple was the worst kind of of insult an enemy could level against the Jews. This happened in 168-167 BC.
Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
The abomination set up in the Temple refers to the altar of Zeus, where AEIV sacrificed a pig. Some think it will have another fulfillment in the AC and one of his horrible acts of evil (Matt 24:15) However, this may just be referring specifically to AEIV and the the rest of the prophecy may refer to the end times.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
In order to understand this, we must read 8:9
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land].
Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?[b]
Israel, "The Glorious Land" was attacked by AEIV ion the second century BC. He was the eighth ruler of the Seleucid Empire(Babylon and Syria) He overthrew the High Priest and looted the temple and replaced the worship of God with a Greek form of worship. A further future fulfillment of this prophecy will occur in the coming of the AC. The Prince of Host here either refers to Christ, or perhaps another angel whom Gabriel is speaking to.
[b]Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
There are four views that concern this prophecy.
1 - The prophecy was already fulfilled by AEIV.
2 - It was fulfilled by the destruction of the temple by the Romans.
3 - It was fulfilled by Christ dying, thus ending the need for sacrifices.
4 - It is still to be fulfilled by the final AC in the end times.
Dan 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
It would be a mistake to read the Bible as a dry history and miss the deep personal feelings. In this section Daniel was crying out to the Lord. he had a deep concern for his nation and his people, the Jews. So often our prayers are without passion and true compassion to others.
Last edited by IamtheWalrus on Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by sewfancy on Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:08 pm
May I jump in here for my first post on this board.
Perhaps I overlooked someone else saying this, but...
Jesus did not confirm a covenant for ONLY one week or seven years
His covenant is eternal.
If you go back and check there are several criteria that will be completed with in the 70 decreed weeks (or sevens)
1. to finish transgression
2. to make an end to sin
3. to make atonement for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most holy place
we know to start counting from the time of issuing the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Not from the time Israel becomes a nation
History shows that Jesus did not make a covenant for one week only to break it half way, so that must lead to the interpretation that the Prince who is to come, who comes from the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary must be the one who makes and breaks the covenant.
Also, If I am not mistaken, by the time Daniel penned this prophecy, the first temple had already been destroyed by Babylon. So after the temple is to be rebuilt and destroyed a second time we know that it must be rebuilt again due to the criteria above,
the seventy weeks are to accomplish the 6 tasks- including anointing the most holy place.
That's my two cents.
Perhaps I overlooked someone else saying this, but...
Jesus did not confirm a covenant for ONLY one week or seven years
His covenant is eternal.
If you go back and check there are several criteria that will be completed with in the 70 decreed weeks (or sevens)
1. to finish transgression
2. to make an end to sin
3. to make atonement for iniquity
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness
5. to seal up vision and prophecy
6. to anoint the most holy place
we know to start counting from the time of issuing the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. Not from the time Israel becomes a nation
History shows that Jesus did not make a covenant for one week only to break it half way, so that must lead to the interpretation that the Prince who is to come, who comes from the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary must be the one who makes and breaks the covenant.
Also, If I am not mistaken, by the time Daniel penned this prophecy, the first temple had already been destroyed by Babylon. So after the temple is to be rebuilt and destroyed a second time we know that it must be rebuilt again due to the criteria above,
the seventy weeks are to accomplish the 6 tasks- including anointing the most holy place.
That's my two cents.
- sewfancy
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Sewfancy!!
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by Sue-M on Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:58 am
Hey, Sewfancy, welcome and thanks for your post. Great points. The truth is not complicated.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
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by Sue-M on Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:28 am
Thank you, Candy. 
You know, saying that Jesus made a covenant for 7 years and then broke it 3 1/2 years, etc. You are basically changing God's entire plan of salvation which has been layed out throughout the entire Bible. Which Sewfancy has just pointed out.
You know, saying that Jesus made a covenant for 7 years and then broke it 3 1/2 years, etc. You are basically changing God's entire plan of salvation which has been layed out throughout the entire Bible. Which Sewfancy has just pointed out.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Lookfortruth on Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:35 am
Wow! I guess I never saw that Jesus broke anything! I will have to check into this, as I thought he said it was finished on the cross, but then, what do I know. 
Candy
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by Lookfortruth on Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:43 am
The truth is not complicated.
This was actually was I was commenting on, as true words.
Candy
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by Lookfortruth on Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:49 am
Sue-M wrote:Thank you, Candy.
You know, saying that Jesus made a covenant for 7 years and then broke it 3 1/2 years, etc. You are basically changing God's entire plan of salvation which has been layed out throughout the entire Bible. Which Sewfancy has just pointed out.
Did I say anything like that in this thread?
Candy
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by Sue-M on Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:17 am
Oh, No! I was first thanking you. Then, I was talking to the others who are debating in this thread. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Sue-M on Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:20 am
That's why I don't like reading words on a posting board. You can't see the person's facial expressions and tone of voice to understand.
I'm so sorry Candy. I was thanking you for what you said to me, "More true words have never been spoken, sue!"
I'm so sorry Candy. I was thanking you for what you said to me, "More true words have never been spoken, sue!"
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
- Posts: 1805
- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by Lookfortruth on Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:24 am
Sue-M wrote:Oh, No! I was first thanking you. Then, I was talking to the others who are debating in this thread. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
That is OK Sue, but I was little confused for a second there.
Candy
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by sewfancy on Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:31 am
Thanks everyone for the nice welcome!
as for the original question on this thread- does the covenant need to be a peace treaty or allow the temple to be rebuilt?
I really don't think so, and I am starting to think that neither do we need a temple for sacrifices and grain offerings to start.
Here's my line of reasoning.
Last year they started trying to do sacrifices and offerings. They were stopped. They promised to try again next year. If the "prince who is to come" decides to stop them from their sacrifices- either because it is offensive or hinders the peace process then that prophecy is fulfilled.
The temple is only needed to fulfill prophecy in the sense of the abomination that causes desolation must be set up in the holy place.
The word for the holy place is also the generic term for sanctuary, any holy place, or God's Holy of Holies. Could it be possible that the Temple mount could be the holy place. Any abomination that causes desolation of the place where the temple should stand would also qualify as fulfillment. We know that the Abomination of Desolation will be set up on the wings of abomination. That could easily be the mosque.
In Revelation 11, John was asked to measure the temple and those who worship there but leave out the outer court. However, he never gives any measurements. Again, temple used there is also a holy place, the holy place, sanctuary, etc. I always found it strange there were no measurments given, contrasted with Ezekiels third temple vision, where measurements are given.
The next point is cursory and subject to one's interpretation, but I have read in many places, that the Jewish people expect the Messiah to build the third temple- to anoint the holy place. In no place I can find, should we expect the "prince who is to come" to impersonate the Messiah. He may- I just can't find any scripture that warns of that happening. He will come in and say that he is God, whether that means he will impersonate God Almighty himself, or if he will say that he is supreme over God Almighty- not sure.
So ultimately- I think that the scriptures could be fulfilled either way, temple or no temple.
as for the original question on this thread- does the covenant need to be a peace treaty or allow the temple to be rebuilt?
I really don't think so, and I am starting to think that neither do we need a temple for sacrifices and grain offerings to start.
Here's my line of reasoning.
Last year they started trying to do sacrifices and offerings. They were stopped. They promised to try again next year. If the "prince who is to come" decides to stop them from their sacrifices- either because it is offensive or hinders the peace process then that prophecy is fulfilled.
The temple is only needed to fulfill prophecy in the sense of the abomination that causes desolation must be set up in the holy place.
The word for the holy place is also the generic term for sanctuary, any holy place, or God's Holy of Holies. Could it be possible that the Temple mount could be the holy place. Any abomination that causes desolation of the place where the temple should stand would also qualify as fulfillment. We know that the Abomination of Desolation will be set up on the wings of abomination. That could easily be the mosque.
In Revelation 11, John was asked to measure the temple and those who worship there but leave out the outer court. However, he never gives any measurements. Again, temple used there is also a holy place, the holy place, sanctuary, etc. I always found it strange there were no measurments given, contrasted with Ezekiels third temple vision, where measurements are given.
The next point is cursory and subject to one's interpretation, but I have read in many places, that the Jewish people expect the Messiah to build the third temple- to anoint the holy place. In no place I can find, should we expect the "prince who is to come" to impersonate the Messiah. He may- I just can't find any scripture that warns of that happening. He will come in and say that he is God, whether that means he will impersonate God Almighty himself, or if he will say that he is supreme over God Almighty- not sure.
So ultimately- I think that the scriptures could be fulfilled either way, temple or no temple.
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by IamtheWalrus on Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:45 am
I don't know if these are the questions you want me to answer, but I will try again.
Yes, they are all the same event, and paralleled with events in the future.
Because He wants us to be aware that the final AOD is like AEIV and the Romans, however in the final, he exalts himself.
Yes they are connected, because they all portray a desecration of that holy place.
In Matt 24:15, Jesus commands those in Judea to run to the hills when they see the AOD. The final AOD happens in Jerusalem, because that is where the Holy Place is.
Satan hates the Jews because they are God's chosen. Satan hates the Christians because we conquered death. Those who are in Israel, because of close proximity to the AC, he will start his campaign there I imagine.
If I didn't answer the right questions, please ask me again.
Thanks.
Sue-M wrote: So, are all 3 of these "abominations", in Daniel, the same event?
Yes, they are all the same event, and paralleled with events in the future.
If you think that they are the same event, then, why is Jesus telling us to flee?
Because He wants us to be aware that the final AOD is like AEIV and the Romans, however in the final, he exalts himself.
If this is the event that is connected with Jesus coming back again to finish His last 3 1/2 years?
Yes they are connected, because they all portray a desecration of that holy place.
Is Jesus' return going to cause believers to run for the hills?
In Matt 24:15, Jesus commands those in Judea to run to the hills when they see the AOD. The final AOD happens in Jerusalem, because that is where the Holy Place is.
Satan hates the Jews because they are God's chosen. Satan hates the Christians because we conquered death. Those who are in Israel, because of close proximity to the AC, he will start his campaign there I imagine.
If I didn't answer the right questions, please ask me again.
Thanks.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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by Mrs. B on Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:29 am
If our body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost?
we can abominate the temple by believing another Gospel ......
another Jesus.......not Jesus teachings but man's teaching....mans doctrine......
We then preach another gospel.......not the True Gospel that Jesus taught....but we believe a lie.....letting satan rule....by our believing lies...and not the truth....this is the Falling away Paul taught in II Thess. 2...
Jesus said....If it were possible even the very elect would be deceived.....
In the temple........the holy place was the shew bread, and the Candlestick with 7 bowls.....and it gave light to the Holy Place.....
In the Holies of Holies was the Ark....
Two angels over shadowed it.....and the ten commandments....the manna and Arons rod....
The blood was taken and sprinkkled on the Ark once a year.....
This was the Blood Covenant made with Moses....
And there sin was rolled forward.....until Jesus Came and Fulfilled all the Law.....
He was the Perfect Lamb of God......Sacrificed for the Sins of the Whole World......
This is the New Blood Covenant......All who believe and follow Jesus and His Teachings......have their sins forgiven....
In the Last days
7 days He.........Jesus will confirm the Blood Covenant with many....
but in the midst of the week.........the offerings and sacrifice will cease...because Sins Abound......and for the elects sake that time will be shorten......
If a Jew is Saved......It is because He is Born again by the Holy Spirit and is translated into the Kingdom of God....Because He Believes Jesus is the Christ....the Only Begotton son of God.....
NO Other Way........Jesus is the Only Way
The Two Witnesses will be in Jerusalem....
Giving Witness and Testimony to Jesus for 1260 days....They will be seen by the whole world......when the Book of Life of the Lamb of God is full...measured or numbered.....Then shall be the end....
The temple will be complete......We are the Dwelling Place of God...our bodies are His Dwelling Place.....Christ in you the Hope of Glory.....
The body of Christ.....The Temple where God the Father and Jesus dwell...
The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom...
You must Be Born Again....Born of God....by the Holy Spirit....
He that hath ears let him hear what the Spirit is saying unto the Church....
bb
we can abominate the temple by believing another Gospel ......
another Jesus.......not Jesus teachings but man's teaching....mans doctrine......
We then preach another gospel.......not the True Gospel that Jesus taught....but we believe a lie.....letting satan rule....by our believing lies...and not the truth....this is the Falling away Paul taught in II Thess. 2...
Jesus said....If it were possible even the very elect would be deceived.....
In the temple........the holy place was the shew bread, and the Candlestick with 7 bowls.....and it gave light to the Holy Place.....
In the Holies of Holies was the Ark....
Two angels over shadowed it.....and the ten commandments....the manna and Arons rod....
The blood was taken and sprinkkled on the Ark once a year.....
This was the Blood Covenant made with Moses....
And there sin was rolled forward.....until Jesus Came and Fulfilled all the Law.....
He was the Perfect Lamb of God......Sacrificed for the Sins of the Whole World......
This is the New Blood Covenant......All who believe and follow Jesus and His Teachings......have their sins forgiven....
In the Last days
7 days He.........Jesus will confirm the Blood Covenant with many....
but in the midst of the week.........the offerings and sacrifice will cease...because Sins Abound......and for the elects sake that time will be shorten......
If a Jew is Saved......It is because He is Born again by the Holy Spirit and is translated into the Kingdom of God....Because He Believes Jesus is the Christ....the Only Begotton son of God.....
NO Other Way........Jesus is the Only Way
The Two Witnesses will be in Jerusalem....
Giving Witness and Testimony to Jesus for 1260 days....They will be seen by the whole world......when the Book of Life of the Lamb of God is full...measured or numbered.....Then shall be the end....
The temple will be complete......We are the Dwelling Place of God...our bodies are His Dwelling Place.....Christ in you the Hope of Glory.....
The body of Christ.....The Temple where God the Father and Jesus dwell...
The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom...
You must Be Born Again....Born of God....by the Holy Spirit....
He that hath ears let him hear what the Spirit is saying unto the Church....
bb
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by Salty Skipper on Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:02 pm
The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom...
Until the millenial reign starts when Jesus comes back.
If our body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost?
Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
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by Mrs. B on Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:36 pm
We are a Spirit but we live in a fleshly body....
in the thousand years on this earth we will have our new bodies....
one like Jesus...
we can eat.....appear and disappear......go through locked doors...
accend into the heavens.....we will have a body like Jesus...
we will rule and reign with Him on this earth.....
We will have a body that will never die.....no sickness....no sorry...no pain....a new Body that will live forever....
We are born again now....but we wait for our new body....one that will never die....
bb
in the thousand years on this earth we will have our new bodies....
one like Jesus...
we can eat.....appear and disappear......go through locked doors...
accend into the heavens.....we will have a body like Jesus...
we will rule and reign with Him on this earth.....
We will have a body that will never die.....no sickness....no sorry...no pain....a new Body that will live forever....
We are born again now....but we wait for our new body....one that will never die....
bb
- Mrs. B
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I'm voting for Sue-M. The other one's don't make any sense. Sorry, they're just crazy stuff! 
by Salty Skipper on Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:29 am
1. Our number one rule is from our Lord Himself. We are to love each other, no matter how deeply we may disagree. If we can't even handle each other, how are we going to handle persecution? So, if it can't be said in love, don't say it.
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by IamtheWalrus on Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:49 am
Holy Now wrote::popcorn: I'm voting for Sue-M. The other one's don't make any sense. Sorry, they're just crazy stuff!
It is ok to do that, but just remember both sides of the coin presented to you. Because if Mrs. B is right, then while you are waiting for a 7 year "Peace Treaty", and there is none, remember what was said, so you aren't surprised when it comes. And always hold true to your belief in Jesus, no matter what comes your way.
Hint, the Parable of the Ten Virgins.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
-
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- Location: The people's republic of Seattle
by Sue-M on Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:20 pm
Holy Now wrote::popcorn: I'm voting for Sue-M. The other one's don't make any sense. Sorry, they're just crazy stuff!
Holy Now, I agree. What they are proposing doesn't line up with ALL the other scriptures. Everything has to agree or the theory isn't correct. There is a reason why the church has believed that there would be a 7 year covenant, which is started by the Anti-Christ. The reason is because all the other scriptures line up with this.
Now, I could be wrong. But, what has been proposed here by some other people is not sound and certainly does not go along with other scriptures. For instance, the 7 year "covenant" is not made by Jesus. The 70 weeks of Daniel is not 70 years, etc. The temple cannot be spritual because the Jews are not saved. I am not saying I have all the answers. I am keeping my eyes open to what God is going to do.
Right now, I am tired of going over and over again with the same old arguments here. I'm taking a break.
Luke 21:28
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
- Sue-M
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- Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:15 am
by OneDay on Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:45 pm
Mr Baldy wrote:Abiding,
I see the Covenant with Many, just as Herb had mentioned in this forum.
Herb mentioned that the 1995 Euro-Med or Barcelona Process that was presented by Javier Solana "may" have been the Covenant with Many, and the confirming instrument for that; just happens to be the ENPI, which ironically lasts for seven years. January 1, 2007 - December 31, 2013.
If the Archives were still available, you could view and see that Javier Solana himself made the statement that the European Neighbourhood Policy was not a substitute for the Barcelona Process; it merely "underpins" it. This statement by Javier Solana was captured by Herb in the November 2007 Archives, on Herbs comments.
This has been so consistent with Scripture, that I personally don't see it as a coincidence.
Thank you, Mr. Baldy. I agree. And the very wording of the purpose of the ENPI was to "strenghten." The commentary where Herb mentions that is here, I believe.
http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/page/overview/
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OneDay - Posts: 2844
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