Pre wrath & Feast of Trumpets

[smallisland]

Although I lean towards pre-wrath, I'm having trouble understanding how the Jewish Feast of Trumpets fits in to this? The picture of the Jewish Wedding seems to fit perfectly with the rapture taking place before the 7 years (ie the groom comes for his bride without warning and takes her away for the bridal week in his father's house). Has anyone studied this and come up with anything?

[smallisland]

I've just found a thread on this in the pre-trib section, so will move the discussion over there!

[bchandler]

Small island,

From a scriptural standpoint, and from the words of Jesus own mouth telling us when his coming would be, and confirmation from the apostles with regard to that day... a pre-trib rapture is a virtual impossibility.

When you look at the prophetic implications and Jewish thought behind the period from the end of trumpets to the Day of Atonement, you will see that this wedding period is not 7 years... but may in fact be seven literal days.

Then you look at revelation and realize the following:

1. It may be possible for the seals trumpets and thunders to run in parallel, or not.

2, the vial/bowl judgments can not be in parallel, as these are specifically declared to be the seven last plagues, having been filled with the undiluted wrath of God.

3. It is between the seventh trumpet and first bowl judgment that God, via an angel declares his wrath.

4. It is between the seventh trumpet and fist bowl judgment that we see the revelation picture of both the wheat harvest (first resurrection/rapture), and the gathering unto Armageddon.

5. You will note that the seven bowls are completely devoid of time frames.

Jewish theology teaches that:

1. Messiah will come with the great blast or last trumpet of the feast of trumpets

2. Messiah will take the righteous into a wedding feast with him for 7 days. (this theology was the entire reason a Jewish wedding of Jesus day was seven days)

3. Messiah will bring wrath upon the unbelieving world that has been persecuting his people for seven days.

4. Messiah will ascend his father David's throne on the Day of Atonement on the 10th day. 2days (trumpets) +7days (wedding/judgment) +1day=10days

The scripture doesn't say that we will go to heaven... just that we will be with Jesus wherever he goes.

Some work looking at the Greek word used describing our meeting with Christ indicates that our going to meet him is as to greet a coming dignitary and escort him on the final leg of his journey to his destination.

So, here is a possible scenario/picture of events based on this line of thought:

1. The delay between the sixth seal signs and Jesus return between the seventh trump and first bowl is not inconsistent, as Jesus himself tells us that his coming will be AFTER these signs. Never the less, it is possible that the seals and trumpets run in parallel, though this is not stated in the word.

2. Jesus returns, just as his word says, with the sounding of the last trumpet, which may coincide with the great blast or last trumpet of the feast of trumpets. (which would make sense since all of his other fulfillments took place on the feast days and for some events, such as the slaying of the Pascal lamb, at the exact hour.)

3. We will be caught up to meet him and be gathered to a place of protection (whether in heaven or on earth) for seven days (which for us, based on God's ecconomy of time, could seem as if it were seven thousand years... woo hooo.)

4. God will pour out his wrath upon the earth for seven literal days, during the seven bowls

5. Jesus comes from heaven leading the armies of heaven into battle at Armageddon and assumes the throne of David on the Day of Atonement on the 8th day after the end of the feast of trumpets, the 10th day of the New Year. (Interestingly, a Jewish young man is dedicated to God on his eighth day of life, another prophetic picture?)

Another important note is this:

Jesus statement that no man knows the day or the hour of his return, only the Father in heaven knows... Jesus used a common colloquialism (saying) of his time which every Jewish reader would have understood to be a direct reference to the feast of trumpets.

The question would be asked, when will the New Year begin (the feast of trumpets). The answer would be... No man knows the day or the hour, only the Father knows. (This saying was also apparently used commonly when a man was asked when he was going to get is betrothed bride.)

The reason no on knows the day or the hour was that the beginning of the New Year required the observance of the new moon, AND aviv barley for the first fruits offering.

If the new moon wasn't observed then the feast would begin on the 31st day from the previous new moon.

Even if the new moon was sighted, but the barley wasn't aviv (ripe enough) then a leap month would be declared, and the feast would begin on the following new moon, which itself could be delayed by up to 2 days, for a total variability of up to 32 days.

So... when Jesus used this saying to describe his coming, it was plain to every Jewish person listening that he was tying his coming directly to the feast of trumpets.

Further, I can see no scriptural justification for separating the rapture from Jesus return by any large period of time... as the word only speaks of one return, and one day of the Lord. IMO, Jesus return is a series of events, beginning with the rapture, and culminating 8 days later with his ascension to the throne.

IMO, the "Day" of the Lord is the 1000 year millennial period (a day is as 1000 years, and 1000 years is as a day), and IMO we are clearly told at the seventh trump that that DAY BEGINS at the seventh trump, when the angel declares that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of Christ... Jesus takes possession of his earthly kingdom at that time... and the events of his wedding, his war against evil, and his ascension to the throne are seen to immediately commence after this announcement.

I believe those who see the DOTL and his wrath beginning at the sixth seal are missing some important things:

1. Jesus says with his own mouth that his coming would be AFTER these signs.

2. Jesus apostles tell us that his coming would be AFTER the son of perdition is revealed.

3. Jesus himself gave us the sign of the AOD to watch for.

4. Jesus tells us that he was coming quickly/soon which for us has been 2000 years but on God's prophetic time has been 2 days. So a delay between the sixth seal signs and the DOTL/rapture/wrath is in a prophetic sense IMMEDIATE.

5. It is MAN declaring that God's wrath/day has come at the sixth seal... not God. God declares it via an angel at the seventh trumpet... with 2 separate angels... he declares that the kingdoms of this world now belong to Christ (officially beginning his DAY) and the pouring out of his undiluted wrath on a world that no longer has any excuse for denying him.

Hope this provides some inspiration for self study.

(edited for clarity, punctuation, spelling, and correcting a place i had used seal when i meant trumpet.)

[AndCanItBe]

A good book on this from a pre-wrath and a Jewish perspective, is Marvin Rosenthal's and Ken Howard's book called The Feasts of the Lord.

I really don't think we can get a full picture of prophecy without understanding the feasts. They are really important, IMO.

[smallisland]

Thanks for your reply. I'll print it out and take my time going through it.

[the Helpmeet]

Good post bchandler!

It's my understanding that all the spring feasts have been fulfilled, but the fall feasts are but a shadow picture of Yahshua Messiah's return.

We're trying to study/observe the feasts in our home---I'm not very studied on them just yet, but I'll be watching this thread!

[Tevye]

From what I have gleaned so far
there is a scroll with 7 seals on it
once the last seal (7th) is broken, it opens
and reveals the 7 trumpet judgements written on it
and then
there is a small scroll
that will make a sour stomach (God's wrath?)
yet, will be sweet in the mouth (redemption of Israel)
a small scroll inscribed with the 7 bowls of wrath on it.

Therefore the seals are broken first
(the sixth seal contains the rapture of the elect)
then the trumpets are blown next
(written on the newly opened scroll)
when the last trumpet is about to be blown
the small scroll appears
(an anouncement of the impending wrath of God?)
some plagues of wrath
are specifically meant to be poured out
on the antichrist's throne and empire
(and his citizens bearing the mark of the beast)
leading to the battle of Armageddon.
(the moment in time when Jesus descends
down to the Earth on the Mount of Olives)
Just prior to 45 days of restoration of the Earth
and then after this
the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven
with the bride of Christ in it,
(the previously raptured believers in the Lamb)
begining the 1000 year reign of Christ.

(so in a nutshell or in sequence?)
The large scroll with 7 seals
leads to the trumpets written on it
only to be revealed and acted upon
when the large scroll is opened.
The small scroll or the wrath of God
(the wrath of the Lamb of God)
is what is inscribed upon the small scroll
a wrath that purges Israel and the world
of it's sin and open the eyes of Israel
leading to her redemption and the final
sealing up of prophecy, forever.
Each one having a specific purpose
in line and not overlapping one another
seals broken, scroll opened, trumpets blasting
and then finally bowls or vials poured out
to complete the ending of man's sin and seperation from God.
Each action dealing with specific things that seperate us from God.
Leading to the glorious appearing of Yeshua
and the consummation of the marriage of the Lamb
the begining of a wedding feast
that may last for a thousand years.

Halleluyah

(so concerning the fall feast of trumpets
I believe the last trumpet or shofar blast
during the feast of trumpets
coincides with the rapture
of the church, and the elect of God)
Possibly saying to all of us that the rapture
will take place in the fall of a specific year?
Rosh Hashanah as "The Day of Judgment" (Yom ha-Din)
(or the Day of the Lord?)

In the pre-wrath view of the rapture
the rapture happens and then
the Day of the Lord begins
on the very same day.
So if the rapture is at the last trump
(of Rosh Hashanah?)
it would make sense it is connected to the Jewish feast
and not to the last of the seven trumpet judgements
written on the opened 7 sealed scroll.

JMHO

Glory to the Lord Yeshua!!!

[4Jesus4ever]

Tevye,
I was thinking that too!!

That it's not 7th trumpet, because from what the Revelation says, 7th seal is the 'introduction' [if you will] to 7 trumpets.

So the seals, trumpets and bowls can't run in parallel.
It goes in the order - seal, then trumpets, then bowls/vials.
7th seal opens up to the 7 trumpets, then 7th trumpet opens up to 7 bowls/vials of God's wrath.

[bchandler]

The problem with seeing the rapture at the 6th seal is this...

We are clearly shown the harvest of the earth... after the seventh trumpet... just before the harvest of the grapes of wrath... the bowl judgements...

In order to believe the sixth seal rapture you must completely ignore the events that follow the seventh trumpet!!

But... what if... the seventh trumpet and the last trumpet of the feast of trumpets... coincide?

what if we took God at his word... that his undiluted wrath/anger is poured out in the seven bowls... instead of listening to the word of men... who declare God's wrath at the sixth seal?

What if the seven days between the end of trumpets and the day of atonement is really just seven days... instead of seven years as pre-trib teaches?

What if we take note... that unlike the other judgements.. there is NO TIME FRAMES applied to the seven bowls?

What if we take Note... that the 8 days between the end of trumpets(repentance) and atonement(Jesus ascension to the throne) is the same period of time for circumcision... That circumcision signified the confirmation, and completion of the covenant between man and God.

How appropriate then that Jesus confirms his covenant with us, and completes that covenant in his blood... on the 8th day.

What if we STOPPED reading things that aren't really there into God's word... and took it at face value?