What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

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What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:58 am

Here are the verses.


Daniel 7: 1-4
1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying on his bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.
2 Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea.
3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.
4 "The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.

Daniel 7: 15-18
15 "I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me.
16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this. "So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things:
17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.
18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.'


Notice in verse 1 the reign is the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon.
This is after the reign of Nebuchadnezzer; Belshazzar is the next King.

Notice also what the angel said.
17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.

These are future kingdoms. So it can not be Babylon under Nebuchadnezzer or Belshazzar so what kingdom and reign is it?


Keith
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Postby OBXBob on Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:44 pm

Hi Keith,

The 4 kingdoms spoken of in Chapter 7 are the same ones referenced in Chapter 2.

Daniel 2

1. And in the second year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar Nebuchadnezzar dreamed dreams, wherewith his spirit was troubled, and his sleep brake from him.
2. Then the king commanded to call the magicians, and the astrologers, and the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans, for to shew the king his dreams. So they came and stood before the king.
3. And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream
.
4. Then spake the Chaldeans to the king in Syriack, O king, live for ever: tell thy servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation.
5. The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, The thing is gone from me: if ye will not make known unto me the dream, with the interpretation thereof, ye shall be cut in pieces, and your houses shall be made a dunghill.
6. But if ye shew the dream, and the interpretation thereof, ye shall receive of me gifts and rewards and great honour: therefore shew me the dream, and the interpretation thereof.
7. They answered again and said, Let the king tell his servants the dream, and we will shew the interpretation of it.
8. The king answered and said, I know of certainty that ye would gain the time, because ye see the thing is gone from me.
9. But if ye will not make known unto me the dream, there is but one decree for you: for ye have prepared lying and corrupt words to speak before me, till the time be changed: therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that ye can shew me the interpretation thereof.
10. The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can shew the king's matter: therefore there is no king, lord, nor ruler, that asked such things at any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean.
11. And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh.
12. For this cause the king was angry and very furious, and commanded to destroy all the wise men of Babylon.
13. And the decree went forth that the wise men should be slain; and they sought Daniel and his fellows to be slain.
14. Then Daniel answered with counsel and wisdom to Arioch the captain of the king's guard, which was gone forth to slay the wise men of Babylon:
15. He answered and said to Arioch the king's captain, Why is the decree so hasty from the king? Then Arioch made the thing known to Daniel.
16. Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would shew the king the interpretation.
17. Then Daniel went to his house, and made the thing known to Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, his companions:
18. That they would desire mercies of the God of heaven concerning this secret; that Daniel and his fellows should not perish with the rest of the wise men of Babylon.
19. Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.
20. Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his:
21. And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
22. He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.
23. I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.
24. Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation.
25. Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation.
26. The king answered and said to Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, Art thou able to make known unto me the dream which I have seen, and the interpretation thereof?
27. Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, shew unto the king;
28. But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
29. As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
30. But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
31. Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32. This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33. His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay
.
34. Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
36. This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
37. Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them All. Thou art this head of gold.
39. And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.


So, the first kingdom was that of the Babylonians.

YBIC,


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Postby keithareilly on Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:47 pm

Hi Bob,

I always thought so too. But now I don't think so.

The reason is that the four beast image vision occured during the reign of Nebuchadnezzer's grandson But the angel said that the all teh beasts, even the frist beast are future kingdoms and they are future kingdoms at the time of Belshazzar's reign.

The head of Gold is Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom. As in your quoted in verse 37 "Thou art this head of Gold" was talking about nebuchadnezzar.

So then, the first beast can not be Nebuchadnezzar as it was still a future kingdom during the time of Belshazzar, his grandson, reign.

This also means it can not be Babylonian empire during the reign of Belshazzar as it was also a future kingdom under Belshazzar's reign.

So, if it was the Babylonian kingdom, under whos reign was it?

Keith
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Postby keithareilly on Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:47 pm

Ok, Did a little more research.


Beltashazzar ruled along with his father as the last rulers of Babylon before it was conqured by Cyrus the Great. Under Cyrus, Darius the mead initially ruled Babylon.

This means that after Beltashazzar, there was no longer a Babylonian Empire it was now part of the Persian or Archmenid Empire (depends on where you count the start of the Persian Empire).

It was during the reign of Beltashazzar the Angel said that the four beasts are future Kingdoms. Since the the First Beast Kingdom was yet in the future during the reign of Beltashazzar, the First beast of Daniel 7 can not be referring to the Babylonian Empire at any time before or during the reign of Beltashazzar. Furthermore, because the Babylonian Empire ceased to exist immediately after the reign of Beltashazzar, there are therefore no future Babylonian Kings or Kingdoms to which the First beast could be associated.

Therefore, the First Beast of Daniel 7 can not be referring to the Babylonian Empire. Furthermore, this calls into question the theory that the dream of the Statue and vision of the Four Beasts are referring to the same Kingdoms.


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Postby 1whowaits on Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:11 pm

Kieth, excellent point! The description of babylon as a future kigdom would not fit with the reign of Nebuchadnezzar as the image in Dan. 2 clearly does. The conclusion would be that Dan. 7 and Dan. 2 are describing different kingdoms.

This would appear to be confirmed by Dan. 7 : 11- 'I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. (The other beasts had been stripprd of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time).'

The beasts described in Dan. 7 are still alive at the time the AC is destroyed clearly indicating that these are future kingdoms. As the last beast is associated with the AC and his destruction, it is likley these kingdoms are present around the time of the 70th week, and perhaps the first 3 exist into the millenium, after the beast is destroyed at armageddon.

The 4th beast is associated with the AC and 10 horns and would appear to be the kingdom of the AC, likely made up of the 10 kings that give their authority to the AC for 42 months.

Dan. 7 and Dan. 8 appear to be parallel descriptions of the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms. Dan. 8 also clearly refers to kingdoms at the time of the end-'understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.' Dan. 8 also appears to refer to the AC- 'he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes.'

The third kingdom is described as a leopard in Dan. 7 and as a goat in Dan. 8, and is identified as 'the king of Greece' in Dan.8. The 'king of Greece' would appear to be associated with the EU, as Greece is part of the EU, and Greece's ruler would be the EU.

The second kingdom is described as a bear in Dan. 7 and as a ram in Dan. 8, and is stated to be Medo-Persia. Media was to the northwest of Persia (Iran), and concidentally a nation that is close to that location is currently associated with, and described as, a bear.

The first kingdom would then preceed the other 3 at the time of the end. The first kingdom is described as a lion with eagles wings, in the past a symbol associated with Babylon. Is there a nation present today that would fit the description of a Babylon, perhaps associated with a lion and eagle? Would that Babylon fit the description of Rev. 18?
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Postby keithareilly on Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:02 pm

Sorry mistake, Check the next post.

Keith
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Postby keithareilly on Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:33 am

1whowaits,

Notice that because the first three beasts of Daniel 7 still exist in some form during fourth kingdom, that the first three beasts may come into existence anytime after Belshezzar’s reign but before the existence of the fourth Kingdom. Also, they must in some way continue to exist and must therefore occupy different geographical real estate as they cannot all exist at the same time on the same real estate. This means that the empires represented by the beasts are not just successive empires but successive empires that occupy different real-estate. While each empire during its existance my occupy some of the real estate of the previous empire, it can not occupy all the real estate less the previous empire would cease to exist.


So the thing to look for would be empires that once were great but have shrunk to smaller nations. For example Babylon still exists as Iraq, Persia still exists as Iran, Greece still exists as Greece, Romania is a remnant of the Roman Empire, (Not that I am saying these are the four empires or beasts just using them as an example.)

I am of the opinion that the bear with the three ribs in its mouth can be either the Persian or Alexander the Great’s Empire. I know many think the four winged leopard beast represents Alexander’s empire but I have begun to question that as well.

Keith
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Postby PTLAlways on Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:50 am

But, those same four beasts rise simultaneously in Revelation 13.
Hmmm, We have the European union. Soon we'll have the North American union. Now all we need is the South American Union and African union
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Postby 1whowaits on Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:22 pm

Keith, yes the kingdoms can arise anytime between the end of Belshazzars reign and the beginning of the 4th kingdom. But Daniel 7 clearly states that the first 3 kingdoms are still in existence at the time the AC is destroyed.

The kingdoms described in Dan. 2 no longer exist. Babylon of the past is not the Iraq of today, they are a different ethnic group. Medo-Persia no longer exists, the Persians are still there but where are the Medes? Greece of the past was mainly in Macedonia, which is now Turkey. Though the names remain the same the nations described no longer exist. There is not continuity between the nations of Dan. 2 and Dan.7, the names are the same and the geographical areas are still there, but the nations located there are different.

Therefore the scripture is either using symbolism to describe the intended nations, or it is using the geogrphical area to describe the intended nations, ot both. But by the description of the nations still being in existence at the AC's destruction, and with the nations of Dan. 2 no longer existing, the nations in Dan. 7 would appear to be modern nations.

The symbolism of the first beast could be Babylon/Iraq geographicaly, or the US/UK (the US -eagle, and UK-lion, 'rule' Iraq) symbolically, or both.

The 2nd beast could be Iran and Turkey/Armenia/Russian states geographically(Medo-Persia), or Iran and Russia symbolically ( 2 horn ram, bear).

The 3rd beast could be Turkey/Europe geographically (king of Greece), or Turkey/Europe symbollically (goat= greece).
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Postby keithareilly on Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:20 am

1whowaits

What chapter 7 says is that the first three beasts/nations/empires exist in a diminished form after the time of the destruction of the fourth empire.

What is not clear is that they might exist in full power along with the fourth and reduced in power at the same time of destruction of the fourth

OR

The first three beasts might have existed at full strength consecutively throughout history and each in its turn been diminished prior to the arising of the subsequent beast.

Either case fits the description in chapter 7.

While many people state these are the same nations/empires in Revelation, I am not at this point in time ready to agree with that conclusion anymore than I am ready to agree with the conclusion they are the same nations represented in the statue of Daniel chapter 2.

For the moment, I am treating the beasts of Daniel Chapter 7 as if all prophesies about them are contained in chapter 7. While other verses outside chapter 7 MAY be the same nations/empire, I can only be certain that what is described in chapter 7 is about the empires in chapter 7.

Unless I see convincing arguments to the contrary I am going to hold this position for now.

This is because once other verses are assumed to be talking about the same beasts, those verses provide additional information that might limit the scope of time during which we would expect these empires to exist. For example, if the nation exist/existed subsequently to each other, but we assume they are all in full power all at the same time with the fourth then we limit the time frame when these beasts must exist and we limit the geography these bests occupy. It rules out the case where only one beast is in fullstrength at a time and eliminates the possiblity that the nations occupy the same geography only during different time periods.

On the other hand, to say they exist one at a time might imply each of the first three do not play a part in destruction of the fourth and that we should not worry about their combined influence.

So for now, because chapter 7 leaves both possibilities open, unless I see sufficient reason to rule out one possibility, then I will keep it open. And since ruling out one possibility can be done by introducing scriptures outside chapter 7, any scriptures outside chapter 7 that a person thinks should be applied to these beasts needs to be presented very strongly. As of yet, I have never seen a strong argument for saying these are the same empires/nations in Daniel 2 or Revelation. I am not saying they are not, I am saying I have only seen assumtions that have not been strongly defended. Therefore, I am not limitting what these verses might mean because of weak arguments that conclude other scriptures are talking about the same nations/empires.

Keith
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Postby keithareilly on Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:51 am

1whowaits,

Assuming the beasts can be represented by symbols is one of the weakest arguments I have heard.

This is one reason I opened this topic. I want strong scriptural support for beleiving a particular nation should be associated with a particular beast.

What is the time frame, what does the shape mean, How can the beasts be matched to nations using a consistant methodology that leaves little doubt about the match?

The assumption that chapter 7 and chapter 2 talk about the same empires is very weak. But, based upon this weak assumption we have assumed the first beast of chapter 7 is Nebuchadnezzar when the vision was not even perceived until well after his death and the end of his kingdom. Yes, even at the dawn of a new different empire.

Now that I see how weak the assumtion is, I want better answers. So I am asking people here what they think but I want more than speculation, opinions, or accepted assumptions, I want strong evidence or strong arguments.

Without strong arguments or evidence, the entire modern interpretation of prohecy is nothing more than a big maybe.

Keith
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Postby PTLAlways on Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:02 am

Even though it would be next to impossible to convince someone as to what nation each beast stands for, we can look at the four beasts and then look at our modern day governments and seeing how they could relate to the four beasts.

So we see the four beasts as symbolic of four nations or kingdoms.

First we see in Daniel 7, four beasts rise up.
The first being like a lion
The second being like a bear
The third like a leopard
And the fourth, the ten horns

If we look in Revelation 13, we see this same beast rising all at once as one system, but with four parts.
So it has to be believed that these four kingdoms rise up at the same time.

Now if we look at Daniel 8, we see the vision of the Ram and the He-goat.

Daniel 8:5
5.And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Here we see the male goat, coming from the west, and it traveled the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground.
Some think that Daniel 8 speaks about Alexander the Great, and even though the Holy Spirit parallels Antiocus Epiphanes with the antichrist, in verse 17, the Angel specifically tells Daniel that the vision is meant for the time of the end, and it takes place many days into the future.

Daniel 8:17
17.So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."

So now we see in Daniel 8:8 that the male goat became strong, conquering and to conquer, and was divided into four horns that reached to the four winds of heaven. These four kingdoms also rise up at the same time, just like the four kingdoms in Revelation 13.
This would be the same four kingdoms that rise up in Revelation 13, and the four kingdoms that rise up in Daniel 7.

Dan 8:7-8
7.And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand.
8.Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven.

So can it be said then that the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are related to the four kingdoms in Daniel 7 - 8, and the four kingdoms in Revelation 13?

Each event describes a world wide action.

The first seal, the white horse, sets out conquering and to conquer.
If a white horse is described to be symbolic of Christ or Christianity, then I can say that the rider on the white horse is not the antichrist, but a Christian leader of a nation.

And the rest of the seals are related to the horseman in the first seal. The reaction caused by the act of conquering and to conquer.

If we look at Daniel 8, the two horned ram is the kings of Media and Persia.
So it can be said then that the he-goat attacks Iran and other counties that has joined with Iran.
The Iranians are considered to be the Modern day Persians.

So another thing to notice is that the he-goat comes from the west across the surface of the whole earth.
That would be the earths diameter not its circumference. That is, from the opposite side of the globe.
And it does so without touching the ground, which to our modern day technology would have to be fighter jets or some type of aircraft.

If we look at a Globe and see what nation is the opposite side of the Globe from the ram(Iran), it is obvious and apparent that the nation that is the he-goat is the United States.

The Ulai canal is also in the area of Iran.

After the he-goat attacks the ram, the he-goat continues and grows strong.

Daniel 8:8
8.Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven.

Now since there are four horsemen in the Apocalypse, or the first four seals, the only relation that the horsemen have with the four kingdoms in Daniel 7 - 8 is the group of four.
But if the he-goat grows very great, then it must be conquering and to conquer. And we see that the rider of the white horse, sets out conquering and to conquer.

So the four horsemen are describing the rise of the he-goat to power and what happens when it rises to power. The group of four horsemen are a direct relation to the four horns and the four kingdoms in Daniel 7 - 8 and Revelation 13.

And if we look at the leopard in Daniel 7:6 we see it has four heads and four wings and has dominion.

Dan 7:6
6."After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

So we see here that the leopard has dominion over the four kingdoms for a time. It has dominion by land(four heads) and by the air(four wings).

If we look at this in its face value, it is apparent that the leopard is the United States or at the time this prophecy comes about, the North American Union.

Revelation 17:18
18."And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

So to put it bluntly, the United States is going to attack Iran, then continue conquering to dominate the world. When it has become strong, the U.N. will split the world up into four economic unions, or kingdoms.

And the little horn will sprout up from one of those kingdoms. And it is obvious which kingdom the little horn will sprout up from.
The European Union is definitely the ten horns, and the almost North American Union will be the leopard.

And it is safe then to assume that the South American union will be either the bear or lion, and likewise for the African union.
Taking into consideration the different changes that take place up until this time, the end result will be four kingdoms that make up the earth in the last days.

If you use discernment from the Holy Spirit, and you connect the dots in Scripture, it becomes obvious what it all means.
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Postby keithareilly on Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:25 am

PTLAlways,

You have made an awful lot of speculation about this beast in this book is the same as that beast in that book and assume that the time of the end in this book is the same time of the end in another book.

OK, but that still leaves evrything as a big maybe.

OK, lets say the US attacks Iran as well as Irag. Under what grounds do you call the Iraq the Meads? Medea was a kingdom north of Babylon and Babylon is in Iraq. OK there close, but your are jumping to conclusions.

The strongest argument you have made is about the goat not touching the ground. But, In Iraq, the United States is not the only nation fighting the terrorists. So there is more than one beast or at least more than ONE horn in Iraq that came accross the earth without touching it. That does not fit the ram of one horn.

Second, the beast with two horns fought by the ram with one horn was not two different beasts. It was one beast with two horns. So Iraq and Iran do not fit because they are two different nations and would be referred to as 2 beasts not one beast. If you doubt this remember Iraq and Iran were enemies under Husseins rule and it is under Husseins rule that we entered Iraq. there was not even an alliance when we entered, so this does not fit.

Your speculating and jumping to conclusions and not thinking things through.

This is the same type of specualtion that says the kingdoms in Daniel chapter 2 are the same as those kingdoms in chapter 7.

I am looking for more than specualtion. I appreciate your input and I too have wondered about crossing the earth without touching it and wondered if what you said about flight might be true. But, on further thought there are problems with that interpretation so I have not accepted it.

Tis is why this topic is important.

I have yet to see an explanation that says Oh that fits really well.

Keith
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby Triton57 on Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:31 pm

keithareilly wrote:Here are the verses.


Daniel 7: 1-4
1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying on his bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.
2 Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea.
3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.
4 "The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.

Image from link...
Image
Winged Bull w/Human Head

Human-headed winged bull, 883–859 B.C.; Neo-Assyrian period, reign of Ashurnasirpal II. Dug at Nimrud.
    Personally, I don't think the feet of this image look like bull's feet, but that's what the page said.
From the Timeline of Art History:

Mesopotamia, 1000 b.c.–1 a.d.
Human-headed winged lion (lamassu), 883–859 B.C.; Neo-Assyrian period, reign of Ashurnasirpal II
Excavated at Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), northern Mesopotamia
Alabaster (gypsum); H. 10 ft. 3 1/2 in. (313.7 cm)
Gift of John D. Rockefeller Jr., 1932 (32.143.2)


From the ninth to the seventh century B.C., the kings of Assyria ruled over a vast empire centered in northern Iraq. The first great Assyrian king was Ashurnasirpal II (r. 883–859 B.C.), who undertook a vast building program at Nimrud, ancient Kalhu. Until it became the capital city under Ashurnasirpal, Nimrud had been no more than a provincial town.

The new capital occupied an area of about 900 acres, around which Ashurnasirpal constructed a mud-brick wall 120 feet thick, 42 feet high, and 5 miles long. In the southwest corner of this enclosure was the acropolis, where the temples, palaces, and administrative offices of the empire were located. In 879 B.C. Ashurnasirpal held a festival for 69,574 people to celebrate the construction of the new capital, and the event was documented by an inscription that read: "the happy people of all the lands together with the people of Kalhu—for ten days I feasted, wined, bathed, and honored them and sent them back to their home in peace and joy."

Ashurnasirpal's palace is described in the so-called Standard Inscription that ran across the surface of most of the reliefs: "I built thereon [a palace with] halls of cedar, cypress, juniper, boxwood, teak, terebinth, and tamarisk[?] as my royal dwelling and for the enduring leisure life of my lordship." The inscription continues: "Beasts of the mountains and the seas, which I had fashioned out of white limestone and alabaster, I had set up in its gates. I made it [the palace] fittingly imposing." Such limestone beasts are the human-headed, winged bull and lion pictured here. The horned cap attests to their divinity, and the belt signifies their power. The sculptor gave these guardian figures five legs so that they appear to be standing firmly when viewed from the front but striding forward when seen from the side. These lamassi protected and supported important doorways in Assyrian palaces.
Last edited by Triton57 on Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby keithareilly on Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:39 pm

Hi Triton,

I understand what you are saying but what is missing is some data about the picture.

Along with the picture could you supply an explanation. When was the statue created? Where was it found? Who does the picture represent? Is this lion with wings representatative only of one empire or was it common to many empires throughout history? Was it a diety that other people worshipped as well? Do we know the statue was created prior to the vision or was it after which make mean it i only someones interpretation?

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words somtimes not.

OK lets assume that this is from Nebuchadnezzars empire. Now can we find other statues from another empire that resemble the bear with 3 ribs in its mouth? How about the Lion with 4 bird wings? If we can find symbols like this in the shape of the other beasts associated with other empires then I think your on to something. Otherwise what we have is a candidate that for this particular empire using a method of identification that is uniqe to this empire. If this method can be used for other empires then it lends weight to using this method of identifying the beasts is correct. If it can not be used to identfy the other empires then it might be a good guess and even a correct guess but it makes it a weak guess.

This is the problem I am having with identifying the empires. I can not find a method of identifying the beasts that works for all beasts. Therefore I have my doubts about an empire where the method of identification is unique and can not be applied to the other empires.

Keith
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Postby Triton57 on Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:54 pm

keithareilly wrote:Hi Triton,

I understand what you are saying but what is missing is some data about the picture.

But along with the picture could you supply an explanation. When was the statue created? Where was it found? Who does the picture represent? Is this lion with wings representatative only of one empire or was it common to many empires throughout history? Was it a diety that other people worshipped as well?

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words somtimes not.

Keith

I just have this image pop into my head whenever I read Daniel 7:4. I don't know the significance, but wanted to add the visual as it seems relevant. Sorry I didn't add the reference, I fixed it.
Image
    Link: Assyrian Human-Headed Winged Lion
    This smaller version of the Lamassu is modeled after an original in the collection of the British Museum. The sculpture combines elements of the noblest animals beginning with the head of a man, the body of a lion--ancient symbol of fertility (some versions use a bull’s body)--and an eagle’s wings.
Then there was this link...
Image

Link: The Gate of Xerxes at Perespolis shows that the Winged Lion was placed at the corner of one entrance. When you stood in front of the gate you saw a lion with four legs and when you were inside the gate you saw a lion with four legs.

    Assyrian temple, winged lions discovered in Iraq
    July 22, 2001 - AFP - Bagdad

    Iraqi archaeologists discovered the remains of an Assyrian temple and sculptures dating back to the 9th century BC, two giant winged lions, frescoes and reliefs. A team of Iraqi archaeologists have unearthed the remains of an Assyrian temple and sculptures in the north of the country dating back to the era of King Assurnazirpal II in the 9th century BC. The head of Iraq's archaeology and heritage department, Jaber Khalil Ibrahim, said two giant winged lions, frescoes and reliefs had also been found at the Nimrud site, 30 kilometers (20 miles) south of the town of Mosul. "It's only the second time in 150 years that winged lion statues have been found on this site," he said, adding that the sculptures stand five meters (more than 16 feet) tall. Two identical statues were discovered by a British archaeological mission in 1850. One is currently on display in Mosul museum and the other in Britain."

    Dozens of Iraqi archaeologists have been toiling for the past five months at the site, where winged bulls typical of the era have also been found in the past. The temple they have unearthed is dedicated to Ishtar, the Assyrian goddess of love and war, explained Ibrahim. A pyramid-like structure has also been found with Assyrian inscriptions. "The lower parts of the (lion) sculptures are in relatively good condition but their heads are damaged by erosion," added Mozahem Mahmoud Hussein, head of the archaeological team. The cuneiform inscriptions on the base date them to the 884-860 BC reign of King Assurnazirpal. Hussein said the king ordered the winged lions to be erected at the entrance to palaces and temples "because he believed the sculptures prevented evil spirits from entering".

    The newly-found temple contains a room 20 meters (66 foot) long and inscriptions of the names of King Assurnazirpal II and his son Salmanasar III and an account of a huge celebration to inaugurate the city of Nimrud. Iraq, and especially the north, prides itself on housing a veritable treasure trove of more than 10,000 archeological sites, most of which have yet to be uncovered.
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Postby PTLAlways on Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:25 pm

Though there is no way I can prove to you, what is speculation, it certainly is not jumping to conclusions or speculation. It is very apparent that, regardless of who the ram is, the he-goat is no doubt the factor that sets up the four kingdoms in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13.
I'm very sorry that you cannot see that, so your search for the answer you are wanting to accept, continues.
But it will become obvious when it happens.
I Hope you find what you are looking for


Praise the Lord Always, continually
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Postby Triton57 on Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:36 pm

    Daniel 7:4
    The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.
I am also intrigued by the story written by Nebachadnezzar in Daniel 4.
    Daniel 4:30-37
    The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty? While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws. And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me. Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Nebachadnezzar's pride is brought low when he is made to be like the beasts of the field for seven years. After that time, he is again given his human faculties and resumes reigning Babylon.
keithareilly wrote:Notice also what the angel said.
17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.

These are future kingdoms. So it can not be Babylon under Nebuchadnezzer or Belshazzar so what kingdom and reign is it?

Does this necessarily mean they were all future kingdoms? Or could it be that even though Daniel received this vision past Nebachadnezzar's reign, the prophecy is given regardless of time? Here is the Hebrew:
    Daniel 7:17
    These459 great7260 beasts,2423 which1768 are four,703 are four703 kings,4430 which shall arise6966 out of4481 the earth.772
    Shall Rise (H6966)
    קוּם
    qûm (koom)
    (Chaldee); corresponding to H6965: - appoint, establish, make, raise up self, (a-) rise (up), (make to) stand, set (up).
      (H6965)
      qûm (koom)
      A primitive root; to rise (in various applications, literally, figuratively, intensively and causatively): - abide, accomplish, X be clearer, confirm, continue, decree, X be dim, endure, X enemy, enjoin, get up, make good, help, hold, (help to) lift up (again), make, X but newly, ordain, perform, pitch, raise (up), rear (up), remain, (a-) rise (up) (again, against), rouse up, set (up), (e-) stablish, (make to) stand (up), stir up, strengthen, succeed, (as-, make) sure (-ly), (be) up (-hold, -rising).
The idea of appointing is related to these four kings. That they shall arise from the earth doesn't necessarily place a time that must be after the vision given does it? Regardless of when, they will arise from out of the earth.

It seems to me that the story of Nebachadnezzar being made low as a beast after his god-complex in order to be made a humble man giving glory to God seems to fit the idea used in other Biblical illustrations of those making their nests in the heights of the eagles being brought low.
    Jeremiah 49:16
    Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, and the pride of thine heart, O thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, that holdest the height of the hill: though thou shouldest make thy nest as high as the eagle, I will bring thee down from thence, saith the LORD.

    Daniel 7:4
    The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.
Phillip
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“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.” - Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
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Postby keithareilly on Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:30 pm

Thanks Triton,

I may be wrong about the time frame being after Babylonian empire. Since the Image is from the Asserian Empire Let me do some research on that empire. It might be a case of my own conclusions preventing me from looking in the right time frame.

Thanks,

Keith
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Postby keithareilly on Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:36 pm

PTLAlways,

Sorry for being so rough in my post. I do want input but you said a lot of things that I don't see and sometimes I need to be walked slowly one step at a time.

Painting a big picture stating things for which you have already become comfortable without providing the reasons for which you have become comfortable with those conclusions does not help those of us who are trying to see.

Again, I am sorry for being too rough in my post.

Keith
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Postby PTLAlways on Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:03 pm

keithareilly wrote:PTLAlways,

Sorry for being so rough in my post. I do want input but you said a lot of things that I don't see and sometimes I need to be walked slowly one step at a time.

Painting a big picture stating things for which you have already become comfortable without providing the reasons for which you have become comfortable with those conclusions does not help those of us who are trying to see.

Again, I am sorry for being too rough in my post.

Keith


Keith, I didn't think you were too rough, I'm not a good writer and usually am not very good at relaying my thoughts properly.
I'm sure it is a problem and much of it is my fault for not expanding more on what I am trying to relate.

I don't take each individual prophecy, I try to look at them all at once, and overlap them if they can be overlapped. But most of all, I pray and ask the Lord for wisdom and discernment.

I know that what seems obvious to me is not always that apparent to others, but I do try to use logic and reasoning as well.

My thing is, is that I believe the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl(vial) judgments are in chronological order, with specific visions mixed in between.
And the Olivet discourse is mostly in chronological order.
You can take the prophecies in Daniel 7-8, Matthew 24, and Revelation and make a complete picture from it.

I would hope that it is more reasoning than speculation, but if you want I can try to write a much better and thorough explanation.

God Bless
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Postby keithareilly on Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:52 am

PTLAlways,

Thank you for your kind words.

I appreciate your approach of taking it all at the same time. I tried that but it is just too confusing to me. I can’t seem to figure out which prophecies have already been accomplished and which ones are outstanding. That is part of my problem in understanding. Consider that even with just the few posters in this thread there is not a common understanding. Prophecy must be very hard to understand.

If we can not even agree on which beast of Daniel 7 is the first beast based upon the scriptures, how are we supposed to have any confidence in our understanding of the whole picture? So I struggle with a piece at a time trying grasp just Daniel Chapter 7.

Again, thank you for your kind words.

Keith
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Postby keithareilly on Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:03 pm

Triton, PTLAlways, and readers,

I sometimes think understanding prophecy can be like a jigsaw puzzle where sometimes the shape fits but the colors don’t line up and sometimes the colors seem right but the shape is all wrong and therefore wont fit; and sometimes you get one that looks like a good fit and a good color match but golly that piece really goes somewhere else so none of the other peices will fit together because that one is out of place, or, worst of all, you don’t find out until you get it all together and picture is wrong.

Please forgive me if I allow my frustration to offend.

Keith
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Postby 1whowaits on Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:07 pm

Keith, yes it does seem as though understanding prophecy is like putting together a jig-saw puzzle. But in putting the puzzle together, one cannot put all ones focus on the individual pieces, one must step back and look at the big picture.

Dan. 7 could be an example of trying to do just that. Dan. 7 is not a stand alone passage, one needs to know points from other scripture to understand Dan. 7. Dan. 7 describes the AC and his destruction, which we know from Rev. 19 occurs at armageddon, and from Dan. 9 we know that this occurs at the end of the 70th week. The 4th beast would appear to be the AC's kingdom, and we know from Rev. that he will have authority for 42 months, the latter half of the 70th week.

Therefore the beasts of Dan. 7 are not the same as those in Dan. 2, as you have already observed. As the beasts still exist at the time of the AC's destruction, the beasts are clearly modern nations that currently exist. And it would appear that these nations also exist and have power prior to the middle of the 70th week, when the 4th beast takes over.

As these nations are mentioned as being present during an event clearly associated with the 70th week, the destruction of the AC, and with a kingdom clearly present during the latter half of the 70th week, it would appear their presence has some relationship to the 70th week, at least in the case of the 3rd beast.

And that relationship to the 70th week would appear to fall during the first half of the 70th week, prior to the time of the rule of the AC's kingdom. What happens during this period of time, the first half of the 70th week, is actually quite vague. We know a covenant is signed at the beginning of the week but other than that the rest is a mystery.

But it would appear from Dan. 7 that at least the 3rd beast is present and ruling during the at least part of the first half of the 70th week as it precedes the 4th kingdom. When the 1st and 2nd kingdoms rule and who they are are unclear, so we are left to speculate.

As Dan. 7 does appear to discuss events at the end, so also does Dan. 8, and this is clearly stated (the appointed time of the end). Dan. 8 also appears to describe the AC and 2 kingdoms that rule prior to his rule, placing Dan. 8 in the same time period as Dan. 7, from the time of the end back to the time prior to the middle of the 70th week.

The 2 beasts that rule prior to the AC are specifically named as the kings of Medo-Persia and the king of Greece. Considering the rest of scripture ,there is a reference to one of the kings and an end time event. Persia is mentioned as one of the nations present at Gog-magog.

As Persia is mentioned in Dan. 8 and apparently in Dan. 7 as a co-ruler prior to the middle of the 70th week, and as Persia is at Gog, it could make sense that Gog-magog occurs prior to the middle of the 70th week.

It does appear that Gog-magog and armageddon are 2 separate battles and Ezek. does place a period of 7 years of weapons burning as occurring after Gog, so it is possible for Gog-magog to occur prior to the middle of the 70th week.

And this could be the 'big picture' message of Dan. 7. By placing Persia as co-ruler at a time prior to the middle of the 70th week, combined with the knowledge that Persia is at Gog-magog and is defeated and no longer ruling after that point, Dan. 7 could be placing Gog-magog as occurring prior to the middle of the 70th week.

And this scenario would make sense with the current world situation. If Gog-magog is to occur, one nation has to be removed, the US (? first beast). The only nation powerful enough to take out the US would be Russia (?the bear, beast 2). It would be most likely that Iran(Persia) would align with Russia (Medes) and then attack Israel(Gog-magog), if the US were out of the picture.

Once Russia and the nations at Gog were defeated, the EU (? 3rd beast)would be the most likley world power to fill the gap made by the elimination of the US and Russia as ruling powers.

Dan. 7 and 8 do appear to place Persia as a ruling nation prior to the middle of the 70th week, and thereby possibly place Gog-magog as occurring prior to the middle of the 70th week. And it does make sense from the current world situation that the rise and fall of nations as described in Dan. 7 and 8 could occur as a result of, and in association with, Gog-magog.
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Postby keithareilly on Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:09 am

1WhoWaits,

Yea, it’s nice to be able to work on a puzzle and know the final picture while we are building it. But when we work on prophesy, the final picture comes from prophesies themselves. That means we really don’t know the final picture until all the pieces are put together the right way.

Maybe prophesy is a mosaic, where there are different pictures and some prophesies belong to this part of the mosaic and other prophesies belong to another part of the mosaic. And maybe each part of the mosaic represents different periods in the History/Future of mankind or perhaps just Israel or a mixture of both.

For example,
I was just reviewing history about the Bar-Kochba revolt. I just learned today that during the last major battle of the revolt, the Romans under Emperor Hadrian destroyed the last stronghold of the rebels and in that city blood flowed to the height of a horse’s bridal. Apparently this is recorded in the Talmud. Suppose this is the event mentioned in Revelation 14:20 under the reaping of the earth and the accomplishment of Gods wrath. It could be. I don’t really expect horses to be the measure of the height of blood in modern warfare as we don’t use horses anymore; so I would not expect this to be a future event.

This might mean that the harvests of the earth in Revelation 14 correspond to the Jewish revolts. There are three angels with sickles in Revelation 14 and some count three Jewish revolts instead of two. I find this interesting since the middle Angel with a sickle is not significant.

Consider this further …
We have three Jewish revolts, 70AD, 115 – 117 AD, and 132 -135 AD. They are numbered 1, 2, 3 respectively by some but other’s only number 2 revolts, 70AD, and 132AD. In Revelation 14, we have three angels with sickles executing the wrath of God, the second angel seems less significant than the first and the last, so we have two major harvesting angels and a one of lesser significance in between the first and the last. Kind of matches the thinking on the revolts, some number 3 revolts but some number 2 revolts not thinking the middle event, 115AD -117AD, is very significant. Furthermore, since Christ said (recorded at the end of Luke 11) upon this generation would fall responsibility the blood of all the prophets from the beginning of history, and because all three Jewish revolts fall within 120 years (the biblical life expectancy of man) from 30 AD, then the crushing defeat of the Jewish revolts and the blood of Jews spilt could certainly be considered the fulfillment of Christ’s words and perhaps Revelation 14 since the blood came from the winepress of God’s wrath. Finally, in the last Major Jewish Rebellion, we have a recorded history of blood flowing to a horses bridal in a city other than Jerusalem; in the last Angel's reaping, we have blood flowing to a horses bridal outside the city of Jerisalem. Is this just a coincidence?

I don’t know this to be an accurate interpretation, so please don’t argue with me as it is just an example; but, it certainly demonstrates the difficulty of putting the pieces of prophecy together.

Keith
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Postby Triton57 on Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:35 am

keithareilly wrote:Thanks Triton,

I may be wrong about the time frame being after Babylonian empire. Since the Image is from the Asserian Empire Let me do some research on that empire. It might be a case of my own conclusions preventing me from looking in the right time frame.

Hey Keith, I'm still learning too and admit I could be wrong on points. That's why its so important for everyone to personally search the scriptures and come together places like this to discuss and edify the body together in Spirit and Truth. Every day I learn something new, which can make it feel overwhelming at times, and there's always more. Thanks for watching!
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Postby Triton57 on Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:36 am

keithareilly wrote:Triton, PTLAlways, and readers,

I sometimes think understanding prophecy can be like a jigsaw puzzle where sometimes the shape fits but the colors don’t line up and sometimes the colors seem right but the shape is all wrong and therefore wont fit; and sometimes you get one that looks like a good fit and a good color match but golly that piece really goes somewhere else so none of the other peices will fit together because that one is out of place, or, worst of all, you don’t find out until you get it all together and picture is wrong.

Please forgive me if I allow my frustration to offend.

No offense here brother!
Phillip
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Postby denise on Fri Jun 15, 2007 10:05 pm

I have heard a very good explanation of the "beast as of a lion with eagles wings that were plucked out and made to stand upright like a man and given the heart of a man...."

The lion is Great Britian and the Eagle is the United States. We gained our independence from her, we came out of her. America, "In God We Trust." The biggest Prodestant, Judeo Christian nation on earth. Who, since WW2 has had a moral decline, we are that last generation, we were "given the heart of a man". Whose side is this country going to be on? God or Satan? We are the eagle wings that are given to the "woman travailing in birth with 12 stars, the 12 tribes of Israel, we are Israels biggest friend, ally. It's American evangelism that God used so that the word of God has been heard all around the world. People like Billy Graham and Youth for Christ....
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Postby stevesherri on Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:51 am

"Keith, yes it does seem as though understanding prophecy is like putting together a jig-saw puzzle. "

BINGO ! I've thought that for a long time now. The only guide we have is the picture on the box. But where do we find that at ?
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Postby keithareilly on Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:39 pm

OK, I did some research on the Assyrian, Babylonian, and Persian Empires.

Each seems to have multiple incarnations.

Assyrian:
Assyrian Empire (old) 20th – 15th Century BC
Assyrian Empire (middle) 15th – 10th Century BC
Neo Assyrian Empire 911 – 612BC

Babylonian:
Babylonian Empire 1900BC – 1100BC
Neo Babylonian Empire 612BC – 539BC

Persian Empire:
Persian Empire 550BC – 323 BC
Samanid Empire 819AD – 999AD


After researching the lion with wings, it appears there is some discrepancy about whether Assyrian Empire had a lion with wings or an bull with wings as a symbol, though some definately indicate lion. However, Mesopotamia, literally, “between the rivers” did have a lion (not with wings) as a symbol; and all three empires occupied the land between the rivers (Tigris and Euphrates).

The prophecy seems to indicate the first beast has two incarnations, the lion with wings, then standing upright given the heart of a man. This could be taken for the Babylonian empire followed by the Persian Empire where the Lion was Nebuchadnezzar and the man was Cyrus the great who allowed the return of the Jews. OR not.

Assuming this to be true would force the bear with the ribs in its mouth to be Alexander’s Empire which occupied almost the exact geography as the Persian Empire and like the Persian Empire map resembles the second beast, a bear propped up on its side with a rib in its mouth. Though, I must confess if both the maps of the Persian Empire and Alexander’s Empire resemble a bear propped up on its side it would seem more reasonable to associate both the Persian and Alexander’s empire with second beast which still leaves me unable to identify the first beast.

The most surprising thing I learned was that the Samanid Empire was a Muslim Persian Empire and were consequently not pagans or Idolaters. Whether being Muslim qualifies as having a heart of a man I could not say. But, since the Samanid Empire did not appear until 819AD, I have a hard time thinking that it is part of the prophecy.

Nevertheless, it still seems odd that the four beast were prophesied to be yet future during the reign of the final Babylonian ruler. This would lend support to the Persian empire being the first beast, but, the resemblance of the map of the Persian Empire to a bear with three ribs in its mouth makes this interpretation suspect and leaves me still wondering if the Babylonian Empire was not the first beast.

Keith
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Postby Triton57 on Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:17 am

I don't remember if I already posted this link, but they put together history with Bible prophecy.
Phillip
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Postby keithareilly on Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:09 pm

Hi Triton,

I read the link and like other explanations it seems a little like a strong opinion.

As I said I am trying to find a method that works to identify the prophetic beasts.

Currently, I am trying to match the image of the empire on a map with the image described by the prophet. So far I have a few hits and am trying to be more diligent in hunting down possible candidates.

Possible Candidates:
Daniel 7, Beast 2 - The bear with three ribs in his mouth. If you examine a good map of the Persian Empire or Alexander’s Empire your will notice that is resembles a bear propped up on one of its forelegs with ribs in its mouth. The ribs are the people of Thrace (Thrace as in Three).

Daniel 7, Beast 3 – The leopard with four wings. The map of the Eastern Roman Empire, between the time of Diocletian splitting the empire and Constantine reconstituting the empire resembles a leopard with four wings. The four wings are those peoples/conquered kingdoms/divisions that are on the northern most part of the Eastern Empire and they are next to the Western Empire. The four heads are the four Emperors that ruled during this timeframe, Diocletian 286-305 , Galerius 305-311, Maximinus Daia 310-313, Licinius 308-324. the spots of the leopard are the diocese into which the empire was divided.

Coincidence? … Maybe … How about some more …

If you color in a map of the EU such that the WEU nations are one color and the other EU nations are another color, the map resembles a woman riding side saddle on some sort of beast. The beast, or animal, does not resemble an animal like a bear or a lion or a leopard is just looks like some sort of animal shape. Since the prophecy in Revelation 17 does not describe the animal as looking like a particular animal as Daniel Chapter 7 describes the beasts, it seems reasonable to conclude that while the map may resemble an animal it will not resemble a particular animal, hence it described as just a beast.

How about another …
A map of the whole Roman Empire around the time of Christ resembles a Chinese dragon (snake like with large jaws and short legs with feet) wrapped around the Mediterranean Sea. If you read the dragon prophecy you see it waits to devour the male child which is caught up to God and his thrown. Its pretty clear this is talking about Christ so the time frame of the child passages are during Christ birth and death. This does not mean the dragon is not on earth later as well as the European neighborhood policy also resembles the dragon (somewhat).

So, I have four beasts identified using a consistent method. I was hoping to prove this further by identifying at least the first beast of Daniel this way. Since the fourth beast is not identified as looking like an animal I have no hope of using this method. But I am pretty disappointed I have not been able to identify the first beast and was hoping for some ideas on where to look. Oh, well I’ll keep looking.

In one sense, the Mead empire kind of looks like lion with wings, but it is a stretch of even my imagination (which is limited). With the meads in charge of Babylon at its conquering, the lion would be made to be on the ground, (as it flew above Babylon). But again, this is a stretch for my imagination and I don’t like the fit.


Keith
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Postby keithareilly on Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:20 am

OK, yet more research …

The verses In Daniel 7 for the First beast say…

Daniel 7:4
"The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.


If I am correct in the interpretation that these images resemble the maps of the empires they represent, then this one first looks like a lion that has wings like an eagly and is in the horizontal position. Later, it’s political boundaries change and it still resembles a lion but it no longer has eagle wings and is standing on two feet such that it also makes you think of a man.

After doing some more research on the Neo-Assyrian Empire, I found this map. I think it resembles the lion less its wings after it is standing on two feet and also reminds me of a man.

Image


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Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:31 pm

looks more like an elephant to me, sorry, I couldn't resist.


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Postby keithareilly on Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:03 pm

Hi Torchlight,

Yea, that one is wierd, the other empire are better; not even sure this one is right but its my best candidate. A couple reasons, first the empire seems to undergo a transistion from non standin lion with wings to a lion standing upright with wing torn off, (Notice how the top left and right of the picture seam like appendages torn away) and the neo Assyrian empire under went a few that significantly changed it boarders. Interestingly, all the maps I have found for the neo assyrian emprie seem to be good guesses not historical accuracy.

For me, In this image, Egypt makes the Lion Tail and the torn off wings are at the shoulders. The head is kind of un lion or human like but those lakes that form the eyes make it seem like a "heart of a man".

Keith
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby keithareilly on Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:15 pm

It looks like the first empire is the Medien Empire. There are lions with wings associeted with the capitol Ecbatana. Unfortunately, there is considerable lack of knowledge about the median empire and its political boundaries during various periods of time.

In Conclusion it looks like: The first empire is the Median Empire.

Interestingly, the second Empire could either be the Achaemenid Empire or Alexander the Greats Empire.
Cyrus the great conquired the median setting up the persian empire. Alexander Conqured the Persians.
If the winged lion being given the heart of a man is analogous to Cyrus allowing the Jews to return, then perhaps the Achaemenid empire capturing the the median empire is the tearing off of the wings (subject kingdoms) and being given the heart of a man. That might mean Alexanders Empire is the second beast.


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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby lambslave on Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:44 pm

I am amazed again and again to find all the consequences that accrue when a single verse of scripture is not read correctly, in this case Rev 1:10. (Which other prophet said what day of the week the Word of the Lord came to him? None) (Why did John need to be "in the Spirit" to be in a day of the week? cf. Rev 4:2--to see the Throne; Rev 17:3--to see/understand the harlot on beast in wilderness; Rev 21:10 to have revealed to him the yet future Holy City, the New Jerusalem?)
1. The chronology of Revelation becomes a free-for-all subject to several misinterpretatoins. Historical, preterist, ideal, etc.
2. Jesus' instructions addressed to His churches which specifically need them, are no longer really those churches, but just generic stuff addressed to the fist century churches which might apply now, might not. The greatest single resource for Christ's churches in the end times is argued away in books, seminaries, and Sunday School classes, quinching the Spirit.
3. The key to the book of Daniel readily available in the book of Revelation so that both can be read, is ignored for lack of "good Scriptural evidence" and treated as nearly unrelated works that just all speak in the context of Christ's coming and are framed by a 3 1/2 time frame.
4. The subject of the book of Revelation is no longer "the coming of Christ," it is instead "Christ."

If I have a great Father who said he would always be with me, that He cares for me--and I am without boots, and my feet are freezing-- and I find a box in the snow with a pair of boots that fit and warm my feet, but there is no address on the outside of the box, what am I going to do? If good gifts, warm feet, miracles, and walking are consitent with the Spirit of this Father, I will wear them. The reading of prophecy today seems to go in a different direction (IMO).LS
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby keithareilly on Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:22 pm

Lambslave,

I am afraid that last post was a little to criptic for me.

I haven't looked at this topic in some time, but, recently thought to look up a few things and was surprised by what I had found. I thought I would post it here since it was an unfinished topic from a while back.

Keith
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby lambslave on Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:57 am

Keith, Sorry. I should stay on point. I'll gather my thoughts and get back. LS
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby lambslave on Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:28 am

Keith, Daniel spoke to Nebuchadnezzar (2:1, 38). "You ARE the head of Gold." Right? Daniel did not say to Nebudchadnezzar "you will be the head of gold" I have not had Aramaic. It is like Hebrew. And it appears that the verse portrays the sense of perfect. It certainly says "you, he." But the sense of the future is not here in my opinion. LS
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby keithareilly on Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:13 am

Lambslave,

You have spoken truly for Daniel chapter 2. But I was looking for Daniel Chapter 7: beast 1: Lion with Wings - later torn off. Many assume that they are the same as Chapter 2 but I have not yet concluded that to be true. I am researching a method of identifying the kingdoms. It works OK even for median empire. But I was not certain median empire was the right empire for the first beast of Dan 7 as I was not able to find to many maps and those I did find did not help me. I later discovered the 'lion of ecbatan' and another lion associated with the Kingdom. It helped me understand what it looked like.

The theory I am researaching (and have been for some years) is that the beasts described in prophecy can be identified by their political boundaries. That is, the political boundaries of the empire/nation resemble the beastly image. Median empire was a sitting lion and it had two tributary empires Babalonia, and Sythians which made up its wings. The persian empire resembled a bear on its side with three ribs in its mouth (the ribs are the three people of thrace). The eastern roman empire between Diocletian and Constantine (i think it was Constantine) resembles a leopard with four wings. It had four emperors before it was reunited with the west; thus four heads. If you take a map of the EU and color in the WEU nations one color and the other EU nations another, you get the image of a woman riding some sort of beast (sidesaddle at that). The Roman empire at the time of Christ resembled a dragon wrapped around the mediteranian with its feet in the medieranian and the baltic. (resembles serpant with feet). I find it very interesting that the kingdoms political boundaries resemble the beasts of prophecy. I also find it fascinating that the kingdoms also used the images as mascots for their kingdoms. (At least for median and EU, I have yet to check the others but it is on the list of things to do).

I was having trouble with the theory because I could not find an empire with a political boundariy that resembled a lion with wings. I happen to come across a picture of a lion with wings associated with the median empire then found another ancient statue that had holes on its side where the wings wee supposed to be. The statue without the wings was called the lion of ecbatana. It also resembled the picture I saw of the other lion and I finally put two and two together to see that median empire fits the bill.

Keith
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:58 pm

The man's heart given to the beast is probably symbolic of the conversion of King Nebuchadnezzar, the first world ruler.
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I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby keithareilly on Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:27 pm

Hi Ken,

Sorry, it can not be Nebuchadnezzar. His reign was already over before the vision in chapter 7 occured. And the vision in chapter 7 talks about a future kingdom not a past kingdom. Cyrus the great is a good candidate though.



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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby keithareilly on Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:38 pm

To give you and idea of what I mean by political boundaries reflecting the beastly image, here is the EU with WEU countries in a dark color and the other EU countries in light color. See if you can see the woman riding a beast side saddle.

Image



Here is the Persian Empire. See if you can see the bear on its side with three ribs in its mouth. It is facing away from us with its head to the west. Notice the people of thrace are the three ribs. Notive the bear is propped on its side with one paw as the nile delta.

Image


Here is the Eastern Roman empire after Diocletian split it and Before Constantie recombined it. See if you can see the leopard with four wings (I colored the wings in a different color but they are part of the eastern empire, I did not add them). It had four emperors (Heads). Diocletian 286-305 , Galerius 305-311, Maximinus Daia 310-313, Licinius 308-324.

Image


The median empire is not as clear. Hence it took me longer to identify it. I have not yet gotten images and put together anything that demonstrates why I think it qualifies as the lion with wings. When I do, I willl post it.




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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:01 pm

Keith, I think you are looking too far into the images of the geographical boundaries to these locations. It is meaningless IMO. I would recommend you do some word study in Hebrew and their application to beast/animals they are representing.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:03 pm

Also, just because the vision was recorded after Nebu, doesn't mean his kingdom isn't represented partly in it.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby keithareilly on Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:03 pm

Ken,

The vision of the statue had 5 kingdoms. The beasts are only 4. Nebuchadnezzar was the head of the status and the first of the five kingdoms. IF the kingdoms are describing the same kingdoms. It is reasonable to conclude The lion with wings is not neubuchadnezzar but the one following him. Personally, I don't have an opinion as to whether or not they are describing the same kingdoms.

But, It is interesting that three of the beast visions are described as a spcific animal but the fourth beast is not. WHat is the reason why the fourth beast is not said to resemble a lion or a leopard or a bear or a fish or a lamb or any other thing resembling a creature. Probobly, the fourth beast did not look like anything other than some sort of unidentifiable beast. The same is true for the beast from the sea in revelation.

Keith
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:39 pm

It is interesting to consider what Daniel saw in chapt. 7. Daniel was lying on his bed and he had a vision at night and the 4 'winds of heaven' were churning up the 'great sea'. In the Babylonian culture the 'great sea' was not just a body of water but it also described the night sky, the 'sea' of the stars and constellations.

And the Babylonian Zodiac did have a constellation pictured as a lion with eagles wings. It also had a leopard, and as the Bear has been in the constellations from the ancients (noted in Job), they likely had the Bear constellation also.

And there is a constellation that is different from the others, it is the largest of all and is known as the Hydra. Today the Hydra is pictured as a multiheaded serpent, but in the Babylonian zodiac it appears to be a conglomeration of beasts, a dragon body with fore legs and an unusual head, it is not recognizable as any particular animal, but is the largest.

The same beasts are associated with the 'beast out of the sea' in Rev 13, the multiheaded beast (hydra) that resembles a leopard, has the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion. This also appears to be a reference to the beasts of the night sky, the constellations.

We have always assumed that the beast that comes out of the sea comes out of the gentile nations or the water, but the 'sea' may be a reference to the stars. This could be consistent with Satan's being cast down to earth, when he gives his power to the AC at the midpoint of the 70th week, which would appear to be an arrival from the stars. As the AC receives his power from Satan, as the world follows the beast and worships the dragon, as it is likely that Satan posses the AC, the AC could be seen as coming from the stars if he is embodied by Satan, the one who falls from the sky.

These beasts are all associated with the throneroom scene which appears to parallel that in Rev 4. The first 3 beasts are still in existance when the AC comes to his end, which occurs at armageddon, suggesting that the first 3 beasts are still in existence at Jesus' return. As the 4th beast is clearly the kingdom of the AC, which is a future kingdom, it is highly likely that the first 3 beasts of Dan 7 are modern kingdoms that exist now.
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:53 pm

1ww that's very interesting! :dizzy: I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of that.
Last edited by extravagantchristian on Wed Dec 03, 2008 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Civilization represents the First Beast of Daniel 7

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:19 pm

EC, many are looking for the kingdom of the AC to be a muslim kingdom, but i believe scripture is pointing to it being much more than that. Satan is intimately involved with the kingdom of the AC, he is it's 'god of forces', and Satan will be cast down to earth around the time the AC comes to full power.

The casting down of Satan to earth appears to be a visible event (Isa 14), for which there will have to be an explanation. The significant increase in 'UFO-ology' world wide would appear to be a clue as how Satan is going to present this event and deceive the world.

The scripture appears to be pointing to signs in the heavens during the time of the end, which could be consistent with the appearance of the 'prince of the power of the air' coming down to the earth, in association with the rise of the AC.
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