We are thinking we are close to the return of our Lord...

[Sozoed]

then why hasn't the 3rd Temple been started?

Isn't this indisputable fact going to be the biggest end time sign we have...other than the rapture itself?

Think of this...if we leave mid-trib, and not pre., then we HAVE to have the Temple as a sign. It has to be built in order for the AOD to occur. This mid-way point of the ac's rule must have the Temple present.
So, if many here are mid-trib, and we are looking at present political situations, how can we even assume the trib. has begun without the temple being started?

[Vigilantius]

That's something that hasn't really been figured out yet. The Israeli authorities won't even let the Sanhedrin perform a sacrifice on the Temple Mount yet....nevermind build some huge temple. Muslims are building minarets and controlling the temple mount. At this point in time, if we are in the Tribulation as some here say we are... something major has to happen SOON.

[Final Trumpet]

Not to start a debate, but I do not think the temple will be rebuilt until Gog/Magog happen. That is when the whole of Israel will turn back to God and have full support of all the people to build it. Not to mention that Islam will be broken with the G/M war so there will be little opposition to it...

[CaryC]

Hey,

I'm with you Final Trumpet. Just using human reasoning-no Jew is going to do anything on the Temple Mount without causing WWIII, so something has to change the whole geo-political scene. G/M seems the most logical thing to come down the prophecy pike. If you take Eze.36-48 as a chronological order, and there doesn't seem to be any reason not to, after the establishment of the Israeli state, next is G/M, then the rebuilding of the Third Temple. From this scenario it almost appears that the G/M war is outside of the last 7 year period, before it starts.

Of course "human reasoning" has had it wrong before.

Side bar: I am reading Joel Rosenberg's book "The Last Days" which I know is fictional, but there is some factual stuff in there. He takes prophecy, factual stuff and weaves a very interesting fictional story. But he did say something that made me sit up and wonder, is this fact or fiction? And that was, he mentions that the Temple Institute has a pre-fab Temple that can be erected and up and running in 24 hours. Does anyone have a clue if this is a true fact or fiction?

[stevesherri]

According to Irvin Baxter of 'Politics and Religion' radio show, he interviewed someone from ... I believe it was the Temple Intstitute, and that guy said the Temple is going to be pre-fabbed, but he refused to say how long it would take. I'm guessing 24 hours is MUCH too quick.

BTW, I only listen to that show for latest news developments and interviews, he is a ... how should I put this .... a quack with regards to timing and interpretation.

Steve

[savedbygrace]

The show 'Extreme home makeover' comes to mind... It would be no surprise the Israelites could erect a temple in a very short period of time when the conditions are right...

I am thinking we may first see the peace deal for land agreement come about soon, and then the war of Gog/Magog break out, because if you look at the second seal in Revelations 6 the red horse was given power to 'take peace from the earth, and that people should be killed, and there was given to him a great sword'. That would mean a 'peace' would have to be in place on the earth, which we don't have yet.

Of course, this opinion is from the viewpoint that the first seal may have already been opened at the Jan 1st'07 beginning of the ENP agreement.... which some do not agree with, and say the first seal will not be opened until the AoD.. either way, we will know soon... the pieces are falling into place quickly but I am sure there are some surprises for us all.

Peace in Jesus
Jake

[Vigilantius]

According to Irvin Baxter of 'Politics and Religion' radio show, he interviewed someone from ... I believe it was the Temple Intstitute, and that guy said the Temple is going to be pre-fabbed, but he refused to say how long it would take. I'm guessing 24 hours is MUCH too quick.

BTW, I only listen to that show for latest news developments and interviews, he is a ... how should I put this .... a quack with regards to timing and interpretation.

Steve

The man's name is Chaim Richman, chairman of the Temple Institute. I agree with your assessment of Baxter's interpretations. He is way off. I like his No National ID movement and the topics on his show though. He has very interesting guests on there as well. One of my favorites is Katherine Albrecht, author of Spychips and she runs www.spychips.com. I don't think there is anyone out there that knows more about RFID than she does.

It's a great show to keep up with the news... just no so much the eschatological interpretations.

[savedbygrace]

Cool site Vigilantius thanks for the link!

God bless, Jake

[Vigilantius]

Cool site Vigilatius thanks for the link!

God bless, Jake

Anytime, bro...... you might want to listen to her talk on the subject. She recently was on Baxter's program.

Here is the link: Dr. Katherine Albrecht interview on "Politics and Religion"

[Chewy]

I think Final Trumpet has it right, too. God will show Himself to be God in that war to the point that a Temple will have to be built.

Also, and I mentioned this another place, why does the A/C go into the Temple to show himself that he is God? Anybody with any current political discernment would call that political suicide...the way things are right now. Also, why doesn't he go into the mosque to show the world that he is God? I'll tell you what I think. I think that when Gog/Magog are done, Judaism is going to be a lot more "popular" than Islam, at least until the Jews reject the A/C. Hope that makes sense.

[savedbygrace]

Also, why doesn't he go into the mosque to show the world that he is God? I'll tell you what I think. I think that when Gog/Magog are done, Judaism is going to be a lot more "popular" than Islam, at least until the Jews reject the A/C. Hope that makes sense.

This is a good point! It would make sense that after the divine intervention at the end of Gog/Magog, that the AC himself would sit in the temple and take credit for it, acting as if he were the messiah or something.... proclaiming himself god....

Jake

[GodistheGreatest]

Let me just say one thing, Sometimes what we think has to happen, has already happened, we just dont know it.. Thats not saying the third temple does not have to be built, all i mean is we dont know everything and prophecy is hard to understand sometimes..

[vgoghsear]

Hello all. I've been logging on to this site for almost a year now. I've been learning from you all and never felt that I could reply to any post. Sorta like "sit back and watch (or read for that matter)", kind of style that I have. However, for the first time I think I can put my opinion in and actually feel confident about it.

I've read "Are We Living In End Times?" from LaHaye and Jenkins (writers of the Left Behind series) and they have a pretty good view of the building of the third temple. They state that there could be different parts of the new temple already built, just waiting for the word to send it to Israel. They claim to know for a fact that an organization called Ice and Demy has already made more than 102 utensils needed for temple worship. I personally think that this makes sense. But again, their view not mine. But I agree that the M/G war will happen first. I think the sudden end to that war will bring up a sudden peace, being the false peace. And then we'll see the rebiluding of the third Temple. I'm still stuck between the pretrib or the prewrath beliefs though. I think I'm just going to go with the flow and play Follow the Leader with Jesue himself!!

[Abiding in His Word]

Well, a hearty to you, vgoghsear!

I'm so happy to have you on the board with us! You don't always have to wait until you're perfectly confident before you post. Do like some of us do from time to time..... post and then......

[Mttw633]

Welcome aboard!

[Final Trumpet]

Welcome vgoghsear!

[Gods_rambunctious_child]

I will throw out a REALLY wild thought!!! THIS IS ALL HYPOTHESIS!!!!
What if we are looking at this completely wrong?!?! Will the temple that the AOD defiles really be "The" third temple? Maybe the false "third temple" is already in place!!! The Shiites are claiming that their "twelfth imam" is going to show up on the scene with "Jesus" right? Why couldn't this evil duo re-instate the sacrifice - RIGHT IN THE AL-AQSA MOSQUE!!!!! It sits in the right spot - the "Jews" would like it and the Moslems would OK it!!! If the utensils are ready - the building is already standing. What is next?
God Bless,
Grc

[Sozoed]

Great replies everyone! Gives me food for thought to chew on.

Maybe FT and Chewy are right...maybe Gog/Magog must happen first to establish a grounding point for the Temple. How else are the Jews going to be able to clear the area and Al Asqa mosque?

That Kabbalist rabbi has been saying (one wonders...but he may be correct) that another war is on it's way...maybe this is G/Magog?
Of course, this is only if the beginning of the trib. was signaled by theEU's Neighborhood Policy going into effect.

I will throw out a REALLY wild thought!!! THIS IS ALL HYPOTHESIS!!!!
What if we are looking at this completely wrong?!?! Will the temple that the AOD defiles really be "The" third temple? Maybe the false "third temple" is already in place!!! The Shiites are claiming that their "twelfth imam" is going to show up on the scene with "Jesus" right? Why couldn't this evil duo re-instate the sacrifice - RIGHT IN THE AL-AQSA MOSQUE!!!!! It sits in the right spot - the "Jews" would like it and the Moslems would OK it!!! If the utensils are ready - the building is already standing. What is next?
God Bless,
Grc

Just wanted to comment here to GRC...this would make sense I suppose, if the Jewish/Mosaic requirements weren't so stringent about the Temple. Do you remember when Father God laid out all the measurements for the temple...the holy of holies, the ark of the covenant, the inner and outer courts, etc? The Jews, in order to reinstitute sacrifices, MUST follow these Mosaic requirements in order for the sacrifices for sins to mean anything. So, this brings us back to timing...when will the Jews be able to get their hands on the ground, and begin physically to rebuild.
After Gog/Magog is making more and more sense.
We'll see.

[Final Trumpet]

That Kabbalist rabbi is just seeing the signs of what Gods word already has laid out. The report about him indicated what many of us students of bible prophecy have been already anticipating... the fulfilment of Isaiah 17.

[Gods_rambunctious_child]

Sozoed, I agree that the requirements for the REAL temple are stringent, but let us not forget that the second temple was not even built in the same place as the first temple - at least so I have read. The gist is that Herod wanted to put up a temple so bad, that he didn't care that he placed it exactly where the old temple was. That is also why I put "Jews" in quotes. I don't think the "real" Jews would "buy it." But the "wannabes", well they would probably have been the same people going to the "high places." Just some thoughts.
Love and God Bless,
Grc

[OBXBob]

vgoghsear!

I'm so glad you finally decided to jump on in!

YBIC,

Bob

[OBXBob]

Gods_rambunctious_child wrote:

I will throw out a REALLY wild thought!!! THIS IS ALL HYPOTHESIS!!!!
What if we are looking at this completely wrong?!?! Will the temple that the AOD defiles really be "The" third temple? Maybe the false "third temple" is already in place!!! The Shiites are claiming that their "twelfth imam" is going to show up on the scene with "Jesus" right? Why couldn't this evil duo re-instate the sacrifice - RIGHT IN THE AL-AQSA MOSQUE!!!!! It sits in the right spot - the "Jews" would like it and the Moslems would OK it!!! If the utensils are ready - the building is already standing. What is next?
God Bless,
Grc

Hello GRC,

That's a interesting possibility. Here's why I think there will be a 3rd Temple. Let's look at how Jesus described the location of the AoD (bolding is mind):

Matthew 24:15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

and later Paul wrote:

2 Thessalonians 2:

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Of course, the 2nd Temple was a very large 'campus' comprised of many sections; all of these other ancillary structures should not be required for the sacrifices to resume.

YBIC,

Bob

[Gods_rambunctious_child]

Bob, good points... Hmmm, so "mutating" my original hypothesis...the "twelfth imam" and "Jesus" team together...tear down the Al-Aqsa mosque and put up the temple....just a thought ;-)
Love and God Bless,
Jim

[Gods_rambunctious_child]

Bob, good points... Hmmm, so "mutating" my original hypothesis...the "twelfth imam" and "Jesus" team together...tear down the Al-Aqsa mosque and put up the temple....just a thought ;-)
Love and God Bless,
Jim

[Sozoed]

That Kabbalist rabbi is just seeing the signs of what Gods word already has laid out. The report about him indicated what many of us students of bible prophecy have been already anticipating... the fulfilment of Isaiah 17.

I agree.
GRC writes:
Sozoed, I agree that the requirements for the REAL temple are stringent, but let us not forget that the second temple was not even built in the same place as the first temple - at least so I have read. The gist is that Herod wanted to put up a temple so bad, that he didn't care that he placed it exactly where the old temple was. That is also why I put "Jews" in quotes. I don't think the "real" Jews would "buy it." But the "wannabes", well they would probably have been the same people going to the "high places." Just some thoughts.
Love and God Bless,
Grc

That could very well be true...I hadn't thought of this in these terms, that either desperate or mediocre Jews could choose a different place to build the 3rd Temple. Interesting possibility.

It's great that you all are thinking outside the box: Not outside of Scripture, but outside the traditional doctrinal teachings of how scripture "must" occur. As Christians, we can get really hogtied with how doctrinal the teaching of scripture can become.

[BeTheMoon]

So, if many here are mid-trib, and we are looking at present political situations, how can we even assume the trib. has begun without the temple being started?

Pre-wrath

[Spreading Salt]

Gods_rambunctious_child wrote

Sozoed, I agree that the requirements for the REAL temple are stringent, but let us not forget that the second temple was not even built in the same place as the first temple - at least so I have read. The gist is that Herod wanted to put up a temple so bad, that he didn't care that he placed it exactly where the old temple was. That is also why I put "Jews" in quotes. I don't think the "real" Jews would "buy it." But the "wannabes", well they would probably have been the same people going to the "high places." Just some thoughts.

Don't forget that many of the "Jews" involved in establishing a 3rd temple are attached in some way, shape, or form to the Masons or other completely Satanic organizations. The temples that they build are backward replicas of God's original tabernacle. If a sharing arrangement is made with Palestine for the mount, then the folks building the new temple can conveniently turn or rotate the temple. This would be quite pleasing to Satan et al. I seriously doubt that the next temple will be pleasing to God.

[Spreading Salt]

Here is the link to a previous discussion about the Masonry involvement in the next construction effort.

http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=22794

[david]

The building of the third temple will more than likley be just as it was in Nehemiah's and Zerubabel's day. God willed it, people had faith and trusted God, a king made the order, the surrounding gentiles opposed it, but it was built anyway.

[david]

After reading one of the post above from spreading salt; this is another possible senario,

Evil people build the 3rd temple (not approved by God), God allows it,
Christ retuns smashing everything and brings down the true temple.

[Sozoed]

After reading one of the post above from spreading salt; this is another possible senario,

Evil people build the 3rd temple (not approved by God), God allows it,
Christ retuns smashing everything and brings down the true temple.

Now that's a real possibility!!!

[WhiteH2OWoman]

According to Irvin Baxter of 'Politics and Religion' radio show, he interviewed someone from ... I believe it was the Temple Intstitute, and that guy said the Temple is going to be pre-fabbed, but he refused to say how long it would take. I'm guessing 24 hours is MUCH too quick.

Well, I was a mechanical engineer--not a civil one--but I'm guessing that even with off-site prefabbing, you're looking at something like 2 weeks MINIMUM without, of course, Godly intervention. You can prefab walls and such, but plumbing and any heating or cooling will have to be done on site.

[WhiteH2OWoman]

Also, and I mentioned this another place, why does the A/C go into the Temple to show himself that he is God? Anybody with any current political discernment would call that political suicide...the way things are right now.

I'm guessing he does it in a prideful fit of pique...pure ego.

Also, why doesn't he go into the mosque to show the world that he is God?

Fit of pique notwithstanding, apparently a shred of common sense remains. ;) That, or he's in league with the muslims and is using them to further his goals.

But mainly, it's this: Islam is no threat to the AC because it's false. Judaism and Christianity are a huge threat because we know the one true God. The AC most likely won't waste his time dissing false religions--he will zero in on the real threat to him. And that is US!

[nonymouse]

But mainly, it's this: Islam is no threat to the AC because it's false. Judaism and Christianity are a huge threat because we know the one true God. The AC most likely won't waste his time dissing false religions--he will zero in on the real threat to him. And that is US!

Good point, WH2OW. Rev. 12:17 states the ac goes to make war on the saints (not muslims), after failing to "corner" God-fearing Jews.

Blessings,

[benny balerio]

After reading all the scenerios...I thought that I would post this here.......The scenerio that I come up with is;......Isaiah 17;1 happens first....The one and only reason that I strongly suspect that Isaiah 17;1 happens prior to the rapture, is because of the scripture of Isaiah 17;7 "IN that day a man will look to his Maker"...This seems to indicate that a lot of people will come to the Lord Jesus, when this prophecy comes to pass. But I am not certain that is what it means. I believe that the prophecy of Isaiah 17;1 will become the first major shock upon the world....but yet not enough to convince the arabs to agree willingly to a jewish third temple on the temple mount. When Isaiah 17;1 comes to pass.....I am thinking that a man out of the E.U. will activate "Recomendation 666" which will give him dictorial powers over the E.U. .....Then sometimes shortly thereafter, I believe that the Lord will call His Bride home, an event that "WE" call the rapture.....This will become the second global shock....This second shock may or maynot yet be enough to convince the arabs to agree to a third jewish temple. But because of the rapture, a lot of people are going to become religious overnite, which would make them prime candidates to become deceived by the false prophet...It is possible,but not for certain that this so-called coming false prophet could be the muslem messiah called the mahdi, who may be the false prophet...If this is true, then we have a scenerio of where muslims are brought together in (IF you will)....in harmony with the jews, considering that the Jews are looking for their false messiah who may be a jew......Which if this is case,....the islamic nations most likely would agree to anything that the anti-christ may suggest, including to have the arab nations to agree to a jewish third temple.......But after the rapture comes to pass, there will be a lot of chaos on a global scale, and I believe that it is going to take some time for the world to get its ducks in order....At this moment, a majority of the jews in Israel long to become aligned with the E.U. ......I believe that this will eventually happen, which the E.U. would guarantee peace and security, and the promise to come to Israel's aid, in the event that Israel were attacked. ......I believe that this strong guarantee, would be enough to convince Israel to unwall their villiages,and would believe that she is living in safety,..thus setting up the scenerio to where Ezekial 38 would come to pass. In its aftermath, there would be nothing to stand in Israel's way from building the third temple...............So it does seem that there will be a false peace before Daniels 70th week begins.....It is possible that the rapture could come to pass sometimes between 3 1/2 to 4 years before the last week of Daniel begins.....As I said before,...Once the rapture comes to pass, it's going to take some time to get thier ducks in order,because of all the chaos..........................benny

[Earalav]

Sozoed, I agree that the requirements for the REAL temple are stringent, but let us not forget that the second temple was not even built in the same place as the first temple - at least so I have read. The gist is that Herod wanted to put up a temple so bad, that he didn't care that he placed it exactly where the old temple was. That is also why I put "Jews" in quotes. I don't think the "real" Jews would "buy it." But the "wannabes", well they would probably have been the same people going to the "high places." Just some thoughts.
Love and God Bless,
Grc

1. Herod did not build the 2nd Temple. Zerubbabel and Ezra built it upon their return from exile. Herod the Great simply remodeled it. I have read those "reports" that say he moved it. They are not credible but I am not going to take the time to get into that here. Suffice it to say the Bible says that Zerubbabel and Ezra put it where God told David to build it (see Ezra 3:1-6).

2. Those "wannabes" exist. You can find many of them among the current Danites. One of their leaders posted recently in the online feedback (to an article on renewing the sacrifices) of an Israeli newspaper (I can't remember which one). He said that the Danites are currently sacrificing on the High Places. That really shook me. That is exactly one of the biggest things that got them exiled in the first place. Then, the other day when we were reading Revelation 7 where God has the 144,000 sealed, my hubby pointed out that none of the Danites are sealed. I had never realized this before. It makes sense, considering that they are still in complete disobedience.

[Gods_rambunctious_child]

Earalav, I can agree with your point #1.....to me the main point is that people put up a temple someplace and that the AC goes into it - to defile it.
Now as to your point #2 - I usually am a man who rambles...but, all I can say is, "WOW" and am speechless! I did not know that people have already brought back the "high places" Thanks for the info!
God Bless,
Grc

[david]

WhiteH20Woman & nonymouse


WhiteH20Woman Wrote:

But mainly, it's this: Islam is no threat to the AC because it's false. Judaism and Christianity are a huge threat because we know the one true God. The AC most likely won't waste his time dissing false religions--he will zero in on the real threat to him. And that is US!

According to Daniel 11:39; I belive the AC will actually collaborate with Islam to gain control. And as we can see the EU is gaining control through political and econimic means.

Dan 11:39 And he shall deal with the strongest fortresses by the help of a foreign god: whosoever acknowledgeth him he will increase with glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for a price.


blessings

david

[MartyrInTraining]

Hi Guys,
I think the reference to a 24 hour setup time was for a portable tabernacle, not the actual temple. They have talked before about a tabernacle like that of Moses or David that could be used. The plans are all there in the Torah. And you could pop up a tent on the Temple Mount in no time.

Here's another interesting possibility. The Word says that the tabernacle will be restored. I've heard discussion that restored could mean "back where it started". That would be the site in the desert when the Tabernacle was first set up and consecrated and the glory of the Lord came down. They have identified a camp site in the desert where millions of people would have been camped. Evidently there is a giant "sunburst" of low 3' walls dividing the tribes around a central circle that was set up to keep any but the Levites from the holy ground around the Tabernacle. You could set up out there (which is not disputed land) and start sacrifices again in a tent with or without the Gog/Magog war - and God's Word would still be true.

The other thing that I need to point out is that Spiritual Israel (America and the Church) are walking these same things out in parallel to Israel. We have already been making peace treaties with the Empire and I believe the sacrifices have ceased - growth and repentance is dead. I believe that the Abomination that causes Desolation has already shown itself in the institutional church system. We are already under the control of antichrist and under a curse from God for going our own way. You can't have 37,000+ denominations and say that we're in God's perfect will! Read Galatians 5:19-21. "Heresies" means "schools of opinion"! By that definition every denomination is a cult!

Anyway, we're giving up our own land to our enemies just as we're shaking our heads at how foolish Israel is!

Oh, also, I think spiritually, we're already into Rev. 7 and the remnant from Spiritual Israel has been sealed and raised up. I think the 144,000 in Rev. 14 are a different group. They get a different seal. I think they are the Jewish remnant.

The spiritual will go first. The church will enter into her refining fire, before the natural and the world enter into theirs. I believe the manchild that the bride gives birth to is the righteous remnant that leads the way into tribulation.

For what that's worth.

Love ya. You might want to read Ezekiel 9. The only safe place is weeping and repenting for the sad state of things. Everybody else is a dead body in the temple. The sanctuaries in America are ALREADY full of dead bodies. Don't be one of them. Start crying. That's our only hope.

Doug

[savedbygrace]

Everybody else is a dead body in the temple. The sanctuaries in America are ALREADY full of dead bodies. Don't be one of them. Start crying. That's our only hope.

Doug

AAhhhh,

Don't want to take it personal bro, but your point comes across a little harsh...

I am a member of one of those 37,000 churches, or sanctuaries you say are 'full of dead bodies', and I disagree strongly with your statement.

On Easter Sunday, over 350 people came to believe or re-commit their lives to Christ in my church, and it was full of LIFE! People were REPENTING and BELIEVING!

So take it easy bro, don't be so critical. If your church is full of dead bodies, go somewhere that there is more SPIRIT!

Know what I mean?

[MartyrInTraining]

I am a member of one of those 37,000 churches, or sanctuaries you say are 'full of dead bodies', and I disagree strongly with your statement.

Those aren't congregations, those are DENOMINATIONS! As of 2001 we had over 600,000 worship centers in America. They're not ALL full of dead bodies, but some are ALL the way full and most are nearly full. Barna's research says that only a small percentage of all the people that say they are "saved" are really "saved". And I think He's optimistic in the extreme.

[/quote="savedbygrace"] On Easter Sunday, over 350 people came to believe or re-commit their lives to Christ in my church, and it was full of LIFE! People were REPENTING and BELIEVING!

So take it easy bro, don't be so critical. If your church is full of dead bodies, go somewhere that there is more SPIRIT![/quote]

I'm not picking on any particularly congregation. There are people out there doing the right thing, but if they're being factious and dividing off from the rest of the Body in their city, then they're still grieving the Spirit, even if some good things are happening. You need to understand that my focus is not on the micro, but on the macro. Just as Herb is looking at global prophecy and application on economies and nations and geo-politics, my focus is also on the big picture. He's called to yell about the Middle East and end-times prophecy. I'm called to yell about the state of Spiritual Israel.

And she is overwhelmingly apostate.

But mostly on this thread I just wanted to apologize to the brothers and sisters that I could have reached out to and didn't. Had I been fully committed to the Lord's command to GO instead of staying inside my little denominational box and ignoring them, their life might have been different. So for distracting from that point, I apologize again.

Doug

[savedbygrace]

Those aren't congregations, those are DENOMINATIONS! As of 2001 we had over 600,000 worship centers in America. They're not ALL full of dead bodies, but some are ALL the way full and most are nearly full. Barna's research says that only a small percentage of all the people that say they are "saved" are really "saved". And I think He's optimistic in the extreme.

Doug

I am just curious Doug, who made YOU or BARNA the judge of who is saved and who is not?

???

[MartyrInTraining]

I am just curious Doug, who made YOU or BARNA the judge of who is saved and who is not?

???

Hi Saved,
Barna's research consists of the Biblical requirements that the Lord established. If you say you're "born again" but you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead, don't believe in the virgin birth, etc. - then it's reasonable to question whether you're actually "born again". Here's some stats - http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=92

We are ALL to judge the fruit. Though 84% of people in America say they are Christian, we show no demographic differences from the rest of the population, in fact, we have higher divorce and porn use rates. That doesn't indicate to me that these are transformed lives walking in holiness. We have rampant problems in the congragations of America and are losing a whole generation to the culture.

There is ample evidence by the number of people NOT acting like Jesus to question how many are actually on the Narrow Path versus those on the Broad Way. Jesus said that FEW would make it through. Surely you can't believe that everybody in every congregation is safe? So then it's just a matter of a disagreement about percentages between you and I. I'm hoping I'm wrong. I'm hoping they all make it in and none are lost. I just don't think that can be Biblically supported.

In some countries like Myanmar it's really easy to tell who the Christians are - they're the ones either in prison or about to go to prison. If they aren't killed. Here the only way to know sometimes is if they have a fishie on their car - and that's still no guarantee.

Doug

[Vigilantius]

savedbygrace... something which may help you understand where MartyrInTraining is coming from is this sermon:

True and False Conversion

That link is for an audio stream. That same message is available in mp3, and video stream, as well at my "www" link below.

edit: I mistakenly said it was available for Video download... so I corrected it.

[CaryC]

Hey,

Have started reading "The Copper Scroll" by Joel Rosenberg, a work of fiction. A very good read. BUT I was wondering how much was fact and how much was fiction, so I googled it. It is so interesting.

Found this site: http://www.vendyljones.org.il/copperscroll.htm It's info put up by the real Indiana Jones, won't put up the whole article, just highlight a couple of points, but I do suggest you go over and read the whole thing.

It tells of where the items of the first Temple (Solomon's) is buried. Two of which have been found. One of these was not in use in Herod's Temple along with the ark. The ashes of the last red heifer are buried in a seventh layer (something or other) and they are down to the sixth. It/they anticipate a 2nd Temple which these items are not to be used in, and then a third Temple which they are to be used in. These items came from the Tabernacle, I think, which Moses and Aaron built for the Tabernacle. They anticipate the third Temple being built in Gilgal (isn't that where the Tabernacle rested?).

Is all this true? I don't know. But it was very interesting. I had chills going up and down my spine. I don't think that was the Holy Spirit though, (don't want to start another movement, like the laughing one, The Chills Movment).

Recommend reading the article, take about 10-15 minutes.

[LandscapeMan]

This is a great post and I can tell that I have alot of reading and digesting to do.

Thanks for the link.

[Triton57]

Not to start a debate, but I do not think the temple will be rebuilt until Gog/Magog happen. That is when the whole of Israel will turn back to God and have full support of all the people to build it. Not to mention that Islam will be broken with the G/M war so there will be little opposition to it...

I agree, it's coming soon I think.

[CaryC]

Hey,

Landscapeman: I hope you were referring to my link cuz I wanted to ask you to post anything you found on the Copper Scroll.

The reason being as I am reading the book (I know, I know it's fiction) it is different from what I understood Vendyl Jones to be saying on his site. The book has a lot of facts in it, so which is which, and Vendyl ...that's Doctor Jones to you... I mean Dr. Jones has appeared to be a little out there, (hasn't he?) in the past.

Maybe you could start another thread or maybe I should, I feel like I'm a hijacker, and put out some info on this and get others involved. What do you think?

Triton: you are so right! Isn't there a song that goes something like "...soon and very soon....." Listen what is that....sounds like angels stretching their wings.....ummm la, la, la soon and very soon....

[WhiteH2OWoman]

[b]

According to Daniel 11:39; I belive the AC will actually collaborate with Islam to gain control. And as we can see the EU is gaining control through political and econimic means.

I think so, too. I can see the AC coming from the EU, along with the false prophet being Islamic. Looking at modern Europe, this seems very plausible...sadly.

[Mrs. B]

The third temple?


First we have the Tabernacle......in the wilderness

Then Solomon's Temple

Then the rebuilding of the Temple after the destruction....

Then Heriod's temple...


This is the Prophecies about the Temple.....

Zech. 1:16......Therefore thus saith the Lord;
I Am Returned to Jerusalem with Mercies:
My House shall be built in it, Saith the Lord of Hosts...
And a Line Shall be Stretched Forth upon Jerusalem....

(Jesus said.......Straight and Narrow is the Way....and few be that find it....
The Plumline fortold by many of the prophets.....Jesus word is the Plum Line......)

Zech 3:7......Thus saith the Lord of Hosts;
If thou wilt keep My Charge, then thou shalt also....Judge My House,
and shalt also keep My Courts, and I will give thee places to Walk among these that stand by......

8......Hear Now.....O Joshua the high preist....thou and thy fellows that sit before thee:
for they are men Wondered at:
for, Behold, I will bring forth My Servant.....THE BRANCH. (Jesus)

9.....For behold the Stone......that I have laid before Joshua;
upon one Stone shall be Seven Eyes...behold I will engrave the graving thereof...saith the Lord of Hosts, and I will remove the Iniquity of that land in one day.....

Jesus is the corner stone to the House....or Temple
The Jews stumbled at that stone.....They rejected the stone....corner of the building....House or Temple....

I Peter 2:6.....Wherefore also it is contained in the Scripture....
Behold, I lay in Sion a Chief Corner Stone...Elect, Precious:
and He that believeth on Him shall not be confounded...

7.....Unto you therefore which believe....HE IS PRECIOUS.....But unto them which be disobedient.....The Stone which the builders disallowed....the same is made the Head of the Corner....

8.....AND A STONE OF STUMBLING.....AND A ROCK of Offence....Even to them which stumble......At the Word....being disobedient:
whereunto....also they were appointed.....

Jesus...The Branch
Zech. 6:12.......And speak unto him...saying
Thus speaketh the Lord of Hosts, saying...
Behold...The Man whose Name is the Branch:
and He shall Grow up out of His Place, and He Shall....
BUILD THE TEMPLE OF THE LORD.......

13.......Even He.....Shall Build the Temple of the Lord;
and He shall be the Glory, and Shall Sit and rule upon His Throne;
and He shall be A Priest Upon His Throne:
and the Counsel of Peace shall be Between them Both.....

back to Zech. 3:9......For behold the Stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one Stone shall be Seven Eyes:

4:10.....For who hath despised the day of small things?
for they shall rejoice, and shall see the Plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those SEVEN;
THEY ARE THE EYES OF THE LORD.....Which run to and fro through the whole earth.....

We are the Spiritual eyes and ears of the Lord......Jesus said....I give you my name.....and what ever you ask....Believing and not doubt...you shall have....What you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.....and what ever you loose on earth...shall be loose in heaven.....Jesus has given the Church Power in His Name.....The seven eyes....or the seven Candlestick....The Plummet in our hand is the Living Word of God.....Straight and Narrow.......

We....The Church.....are the body of Christ......

I Corin.6:19.......WHAT? Know ye Not that Your Body is the TEMPLE....OF THE HOLY GHOST.......WHICH is in you.....Which ye have of God....and Ye are Not Your Own?

20......For Ye are bought with a Price: therefore Glorify God in Your Body.....and in Your Spirit....Which are God's....

I Cor. 3:16.......Know Ye Not....that ye are the TEMPLE OF GOD......AND that the Spirit of God Dwelleth in you?

17......If Any Man....Defile the TEMPLE of God......Him shall God Destroy; for the Temple of God is Holy.....WHICH TEMPLE YE ARE......


It is the Devil's Plan.....to corrupt the Temple of God.....by deceving the believer to Believe Lies........False Teachings.......and False Doctrine....And a False Christ........?
This is how.....Satan sitteth in the Temple of God.....in the bodies of the believes......leading them astray by a False Gospel......that has no Power....Teaching the Holy Spirit is not for today.....denying the very Power of God.....that lives in the Believers.....Deceving if possible the very elect.......

We are the Temple of God....
before you could go into the temple......you went to the altar..Jesus the sacrifice Lamb...to the blood sacrifice....then the water of washing...today water Baptism....then to the Holy Place....the bread...which is the body of Christ...without sin....then candlestick...the light and the Living word....and the incense...or Pray and Praise......We now are the Temple where God Lives.........in our bodies.....We are the Body of Christ.....We Now are the Light of the World.....We are His Witnesses......

Satan's plan is to sit in the temple of God.....Shewing Himself that He is god..........

7.....For the Mystery of Iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.....

this is the falling away from the truth...church......

9.....Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and sign and lying wonders,

10....And with All Deceivableness of Unrighteousness in them that Perish:
Because.....They Received Not the Love of the Truth....that they might be saved......

11.....And for this cause God shall send them STRONG DELUSION...THAT they should believe a lie:

12.....That they All Might be ******....Who believed Not the Truth....But have Pleassure in Unrighteousness.......


We are the Temple of God.....The Light of the World......His Witnesses....


bb