Imminent Return

[tatterdemalion]

(forgive me for transplanting this from another thread)<br>
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We can try a gentle discussion, if not a debate. One of the doctrines that goes hand-glove with pre-trib rapture is the concept of the Imminent Return of Christ. In my understanding that means the Christ could literally return at any moment, even before I finish typing this sent...<br>
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(just kidding)<br>
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..ence. Stated another way, the imminent return doctrine means that EVERY single prophetic condition for the return and/or rapture has already been fulfilled. <br>
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Let me ask a question. At which point in history were the conditions for His return fulfilled? Theoretically speaking, what was the absolutely earliest He could have returned? One second after the Ascension? (That would be silly, of course, but, please think about it.)<br>
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BTW, this is not a stealth arguement for preterism. I DO NOT subscribe to preterism. <p></p><i></i>

[Herb]

There is another explanation for the first century church believing Christ's return was imminent. For one thing, they lived during the time of the fourth and last kingdom according to Daniel. This being the case, they naturally would have expected the 10 horns and the AC to appear anytime.<br>
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Herb <p></p><i></i>

[njfish17]

Paul and the first century church were expectant. They did not teach imminency. Due to the tribulation they were facing they believed reports saying that the Day of the Lord had occurred. This is why Paul tells the thessalonicans concerning them being gathered by Jesus that it could not occur until the apostasy and the revealing of Antichrist. Paul speaks of them being gathered to Jesus and the Day of the Lord in the same context because they occur at the "same" time meaning that after the rapture the judgement starts. Both are at the time Christ appears in the clouds.<br>
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Jesus said in Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors. <br>
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These things include the abomination of desolation.<br>
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Man it's so amazing how clear the Word of God is!!! <p></p><i></i>

[tatterdemalion]

Huh, you guys are no fun to ask a leading question of.....<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START :p --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/tongue.gif ALT=":p"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> <br>
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I am not in support of the modern concept of imminency. It seems rather manipulative, in fact. If someone tells me that Jesus could return at any moment, I ask them at what point in history that imminency was true? <br>
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Ususally they will say that Christ's return was imminent immediately following the Ascension. Then I will remind them of Christ's prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem and Peter's old age. To someone in the first century, those two things would have to happen at the least before He could return. I then ask them if they think that the restoration of the nation of Israel was important. If they are premil at all, then they will concede that point too. I will then say that Christ could not have returned until the nation of Israel was reformed. <p></p><i></i>

[nosut]

the replies to your question are sufficient. Your question is not very well phrased by the way. Then, it's clear that you do not search the scriptures yourself. At what point in history... read the scriptures... the answers are there. <p></p><i></i>

[njfish17]

Sorry,<br>
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I thought about playing along but I didn't want to cause confusion since there really are people who believe in the false teaching of imminency. <p></p><i></i>

[tatterdemalion]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>the replies to your question are sufficient. Your question is not very well phrased by the way. Then, it's clear that you do not search the scriptures yourself. At what point in history... read the scriptures... the answers are there.<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
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Well, I will try to rephrase the question. I also think that your response is a bit harsh. We are all searching the scriptures. We often come to different conclusions on non-essential doctrines. Believe it or not, that's okay. <p></p><i></i>

[tatterdemalion]

No need to apologize or play along. I will try to rephrase. I would be interested in the reply from a pre-tribber.<br>
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At what point in history is the rapture imminent? What was the last prophetic condition that had to have been fulfilled? <p></p><i></i>

[orangemailman]

Sorry, I've never believed in the imminent return of Christ, not in the way it is defined by some anyway. There is a specific day and hour that has been predetermined by the Father in heaven. It will be on that day and hour and at no other time. Can the LORD return at any time? No. He can only fulfill His Father's will. <br>
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The passages in the Bible that talk of Christ's second coming (not second and third coming) always speak of it happening after certain events. In Matthew 24 it is after the abomination of desolation. In II Thessalonians 2 it is after the antichrist sits in the temple trying to be a god. In Revelation 6 it is after the great tribulation. In Revelation 14 it is after the antichrist demands to be worshipped. In Isaiah 26, it is after the time of Jacob's trouble. In Daniel 7 it is after the antichrist makes war with the saints.<br>
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Some people on this board have stated something like the early church fathers believed in imminence. I don't believe they have read the church father's works. Twice in "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles" Matthew 24:31 is quoted with the substitution of "Church" for "elect". <br>
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Justin Martyr wrote, "The man of apostasy [Antichrist] ... shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..."<br>
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Irenaeus wrote "And they [the ten kings] shall ... give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight."<br>
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Hippolytus wrote, "Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary [speaking of antichrist] That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church."<br>
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Yes the early church was expectant of Christ's return, just like we on this board are, but it was always expecting Him to return just as He said He would, after the antichrist has been revealed.<br>
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Yes He comes as a thief in the night, but only to the unprepared. I Thessalonians 5 says that we will not be taken unawares because we know there will be a cry of peace and safety and then ... sudden destruction. This is obviously referring to chapter 4 as well, which we all know refers to the rapture.<br>
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Anyway, that's what I think of imminence. I look forward to it, but I know it won't happen until after the signs that Our LORD says will happen first are fulfilled.<br>
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-Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13<br>
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-The Orange Mailman <p></p><i></i>

[kallemeynd]

Hey Orangy...<br>
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Glad you joined up. You're a much better (and nicer) debater than I am.<br>
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DennisK <p></p><i></i>

[tatterdemalion]

Great reply! <br>
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<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>In Matthew 24 it is after the abomination of desolation. In II Thessalonians 2 it is after the antichrist sits in the temple trying to be a god. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->Have you considered the possibility that these two things are the same event? <p></p><i></i>

[orangemailman]

Considered the possibility? It jumped off the pages of my Bible and hit me square between the eyes with a two by four. Growing as a Christian can be painful at times.<br>
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-The Orange Mailman <p></p><i></i>

[tatterdemalion]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Considered the possibility? It jumped off the pages of my Bible and hit me square between the eyes with a two by four. <hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END--><br>
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I like your style...... <p></p><i></i>