Justified Deception: Biblical Citizens of Israel

[Loop]

I'm sorry, I "did not" say we were not part of Israel as believers in Christ, I do not believe that, thats for sure.
I do believe we are part of Israel as believers.
"Just trying to get another part of what I was taught straight" as I said that is why I like to come here to "learn" and not to be talked down too, sorry if I misunderstood what you were meaning... but it takes bible scriptures for me to believe anything now after being raised in the church that I was raised in. I'm not really trusting because of it... and I'm not meaning that anyone on here would deliberately lie..

[bchandler]

Lol... loop,

sorry for the confusion... i was adressing 2 different comments by 2 different people.

Your's regarding Joseph's gentile sons... and others who say things tothe effect of "I don't even know why you would want to be one"(a jew).

[Loop]

I'm sorry bchandler , thanks for clarifying LOL!

[Bob the Quiet]

Loop, I don't think there would be any Scripture disproving that most Americans are descended from those two tribes. Certainly it is possible that many Americans are, but the same would hold true for the rest of the world as well. The Bible, to my knowledge, only gives us the verses which you have already quoted in regards to Ephraim and Manessah. Historically, I don't see that there is any reason that most gentiles in the western world are descended from those two tribes.

Besides, there is no real Biblical need for such to be the case. Christians, and I know you don't deny this, are adopted into Israel by faith and so it is that by faith we are counted among the faithful Jews.

[Douggg]

Dougg, and all

Please pray for my family.... I must travel this weekend, my Grandfather passed away... He was a believer…..

My sincere condolences. I am very sorry to hear about your Grandfather. Praise God, he was a believer, the greatest comfort he could have given you and your family.

Peace,

Doug L.

[Lazarus43]

Dougg, and all

Please pray for my family.... I must travel this weekend, my Grandfather passed away... He was a believer…..

My sincere condolences. I am very sorry to hear about your Grandfather. Praise God, he was a believer, the greatest comfort he could have given you and your family.

Peace,

Doug L.

This is one time when I agree with Doug L.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Loop]

Bob the Quiet

same would hold true for the rest of the world as well.

Most deffinately. If the Israelites are as many as the sand of the sea, which the bible says , then you know they wouldn't all fit into the little state of Israel. Would have to include most other countries.
What I was taught was that their were two tribes left in Jerusalem, Judah being one, and that is still the ones there.
I still see it as an interesting thought though... While reading the bible you do almost always see them spoken of seperately Judah and Israel.. someday we won't. Spiritual Israel, we are together... one family

[Bob the Quiet]

All Christians are already part of Spiritual Israel by faith, though is the thing. That is why it isn't Biblically necessary for Gentiles in the western world to be descended from any tribe of Israel.

# Galatians 3:7
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

[Loop]

I think you are taking it that I am disagreeing that Christians are part of Israel now, I'm not. I totally agree.
And I don't think we have to be blood Israel to be part of it. It was just something I was making a remark on as to what I was taught. Weird sometimes, the little things that are brought forward and taught as important....

[Douggg]

All Christians are already part of Spiritual Israel by faith, though is the thing. That is why it isn't Biblically necessary for Gentiles in the western world to be descended from any tribe of Israel.

# Galatians 3:7
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

There is no Spiritual Israel. It doesn't exist.

There is the Kingdom of God. The kingdom of Heaven. Neither are called Spiritual Israel. Jesus did not say it was important to have our names written down as a citizen of "Spiritual Israel, but of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Israel in the ot is said to be the "first borne". "first borne' of all the nations that will eventually follow and obey God.

Why deny the Jews - Israel? Why is that so important?

We are receipients of the New Testament - i.e. as in last will and testament - we inherit eternal life....which was not part of the old Mt. Sinai covenant.

The New Covenant relates to the Jews because they had the old covenant, not us Gentiles. We benefit because the New Covenant to the Jews, descemdants of the tribe of Judah, although they have yet to accept it, because the New Covenant was intended to be broaden to include us Gentiles. But that doesn't mean that we have suddenly become "spiritual Jews" somehow tying us to Israel of the old covenant. We are Genitles....Abraham was a Gentile. He was a Hebrew, but not a Jew. His grandson was Israel, and the sons of Israel became the twelve tribes.

We are Children of Abraham, spiritually speaking, according to the bible.... because Abraham met God's approval according to Faith. We are not Children of Israel... because we are not Jews, nor of the other tribes.

Peace,

Doug L.

[Arfur]

Doug,

As Christians are spoken of as being IN Christ, then what is it about Christ that Christians are not IN, seeing that Jesus was/is an Israelite.

Arfur.

[Lazarus43]

There is no Spiritual Israel. It doesn't exist....

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Acts 2:36-41 (NASB)
Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard {this,} they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Peter {said} to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"
Act 2:41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
*Red coloring mine.
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I think there is a difference between the "about three thousand souls" from the "house of Israel" who were added to the "church" and the rest of the "house of Israel" which had not been added to the "church".

Perhaps "they are not all Israel who are {descended} from Israel," as it says in Romans 9:6.

Perhaps "there is no distinction between Jew and Greek" as it says in Romans 10:12 and "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED" as it says in Romans 10:13.

Perhaps there is such a thing as "spiritual Israel."

[Bob the Quiet]

Doug, I and others have already posted at length about how gentiles are grafted into the true vine (which is Jesus, a Jew and Israelite). You should well know that when we put on Jesus we are adopted into the Kingdom. What is this Kingdom? You should know that God has reserved for Himself Israel as His Kingdom, and the World. Christ will reign from Jerusalem on the Throne of David for a thousand years, and then after the completion of the thousand years, for all eternity from the new Jerusalem and once again on the Throne of David.

By denying that there is a 'spiritual' Israel, then you deny the words of your Lord's Apostle, who said that Jew is not someone who is a Jew outwardly, but one who is a Jew inwardly (Romans 2) and who said that both Jew and Gentile (Greek) are grafted into the same true vine, are part of the very same body, as both are redeemed by and serve one Lord, even Christ Jesus.

[cielohim]

Thank you all for the prayers.

The service was beautiful. His life was a testimony to many, 83yrs old, 16 great grand children, 61 yrs of marriage to One woman and a Legacy that will reach my own children in the passing on of the faith….
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When the Lord made the promise to Abraham, were Abraham’s descendents ever intended to be “Natural”? And was the Promise intended to be passing, or did the Lord always have in mind an Eternal End?

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance

I believe it has been revealed to us by the fulfillment of prophecy that God always had an eternal end for Israel/The Kingdom of Heaven. We have many prophecies in the OT that explain to us God’s purpose of Israel and Jerusalem. If we look in the NT we see the name of God’s Kingdom, IE: “The New Jerusalem”

Dougg you said:

We benefit because the New Covenant to the Jews, descendants of the tribe of Judah, although they have yet to accept it, because the New Covenant was intended to be broaden to include us Gentiles.

According to scripture there were great numbers of Jews that have indeed accepted Christ.

Acts 14:1 At Iconium Paul and Barnabas went as usual into the Jewish synagogue. There they spoke so effectively that a great number of Jews and Gentiles believed.

Acts 17:12 Many of the Jews believed,

John 8:31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

The truth is Thousands of Jews all through history even today have accepted Jesus.

You are right in saying the NC was intended to be broadened to include us Gentiles…. But I believe there is a reason many will not accept HOW the New covenant is broadened to include us.

The how is explained to us clearly in the following prophecies.

Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…33"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people…12For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.

He says "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people….....I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more”

Now, there is only one nation upon this earth the God has redeemed a people for himself. What is the name of that nation?

I Chron 17:“21 And who is like your people Israel—the one nation on earth whose God went out to redeem a people for himself”

The word says Redeemed. How are we redeemed?

“I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people”......This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you......You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you.

“I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah”…… "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you…..And who is like your people Israel—the one nation on earth whose God went out to redeem a people for himself....You did not choose me, but I chose you......I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people....etc...

If we add those truths the many other prophecy and scripture that has been posted then we begin to see a clear picture of our relationship IN Israel.

We should address the prophecies related to the "Kingdom of Heaven".... Remember Christ was asked.. "Are you the King of the Jews?"... He replied... "Yes, it is as you say,"

In him,

Cielohim

[Douggg]

Doug, I and others have already posted at length about how gentiles are grafted into the true vine (which is Jesus, a Jew and Israelite).

Chapter and verse that says Jesus was an Israelite, please. Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world. The Kingdom of God has NEVER been called "spiritual Israel" in the bible.

You should well know that when we put on Jesus we are adopted into the Kingdom. What is this Kingdom? You should know that God has reserved for Himself Israel as His Kingdom, and the World.

Again, Chapter and verse where the Kingdom of God is called either "spiritual Israel" or the "kingdom of Israel".

By denying that there is a 'spiritual' Israel,
then you deny the words of your Lord's Apostle,

No I am not, because Paul never uttered the words, "spiritual Israel".

who said that Jew is not someone who is a Jew outwardly, but one who is a Jew inwardly (Romans 2) and who said that both Jew and Gentile (Greek) are grafted into the same true vine, are part of the very same body, as both are redeemed by and serve one Lord, even Christ Jesus.

Some people here in this thread.... need to ask themselves.... the Jews, of who Paul was referring, which kingdom were they part of? It was not the kingdom of Israel! There was no kingdom called Israel in those days. The land was called Israel, but the Jews were definitely not part of the kingdom of Israel.... because they had returned from Babylonian captivity and were living in the land - but it was not a kingdom because they were controlled by first the Medes and Persians, then the Greeks, and in Jesus time the Romans.

That there was no kingdom of Israel, at the time of Jesus, in Act 1, we read....

1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

And....The disciples had just asked Jesus...

1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord *, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

So the entire argument that because the Jews, some of them, are not spiritual Jews, extending them by (flawed) rationale claimng them as having been the earthly kingdom of Israel, is askew..... because the Jews were not part of the kingdom of ISRAEL in the first place! They were from the area called Judaea.... they snubbed their noses at those from Galillee and Samaria.

That all Israel will be saved, after the times of the gentiles ends, referres to the end times when God takes the two sticks representing Israel, the northern two tribes, and Judah, the southern two tribes.... back together as one nation.... That prophecy, in part, has been fulfilled when Israel became a nation again. It is not a kingdom yet, but it is called Israel, not Judeah, not Samaria, not Galillee... like back in Jesus's day.

There is no "spiritual Israel", especially as being claimed to be the Kingdom of God, using the rationale because of what Paul said about the Jews - because that rationale is flawed.....they were not part of the kingdom of Israel to start with. The kingdom of Israel did not exist in their day.

Bob, do you remember who told you that you were "spritual Israel" ? How did you come about, from your experience, did you first encounter that teaching?

Peace,

Doug L.

[Bob the Quiet]

So then, logically you must deny the Rapture and that Daniel's 70th Week will occur, since those terms never appear in the Bible. "Spiritual Israel" is simply a term used to describe "true" Israel, that is to say natural Jews who accept Christ and Gentiles who are grafted in.

Some people here in this thread.... need to ask themselves.... the Jews, of who Paul was referring, which kingdom were they part of? It was not the kingdom of Israel! There was no kingdom called Israel in those days. The land was called Israel, but the Jews were definitely not part of the kingdom of Israel.... because they had returned from Babylonian captivity and were living in the land - but it was not a kingdom because they were controlled by first the Medes and Persians, then the Greeks, and in Jesus time the Romans.

This point is completely irrelevant. They were under the political authority of Rome, but Jews who believed in Christ have only one King and that is Jesus - the same holds true for believing Gentiles. We are of the Kingdom of Heaven, that is where we have our citizenship however that Kingdom is coming to earth after Daniel's 70th Week.

On that Day, when our Lord establishes His kingdom He will rule from Jerusalem, and He will rule from the new Jerusalem in the eternal kingdom.

Other than that, Doug, you don't even know what the term "Israelite" really means. In our modern mindset we think a nation is the people living in a particular land who share a common tongue, but an Israelite is a person descended from the MAN whom God named Israel, that is Jacob son of Isaac. Jesus was descended from Israel, and thus He is an Israelite.

There is no "spiritual Israel", especially as being claimed to be the Kingdom of God, using the rationale because of what Paul said about the Jews - because that rationale is flawed.....they were not part of the kingdom of Israel to start with. The kingdom of Israel did not exist in their day.

Doug, you have erected a massive straw man and proceeded to dismantle it thinking you are dismantling my reasoning. You are not. Your entire reasoning is badly flawed. I have never said that the kingdom of Israel existed during the New Testament period, that Kingdom will not come until the completion of the 70th Week. Once again, and there is no pride in this statement, how do you not know these things if you have studied the Word so much?

Bob, do you remember who told you that you were "spritual Israel" ? How did you come about, from your experience, did you first encounter that teaching?

Through my own studies the only logical conclusion is that there is a Spiritual Israel - commonly called "the Church" - which is composed of both natural (and faithful) Israel and believing Gentiles. "Spiritual Israel" is merely another term that I use to describe the doctrine. You cannot attack a doctrine on that basis of what it is called not being found in Scripture. Simply doesn't work.

[Douggg]

[quote="cielohim"]

ceilo, the problem I have with your position is that your are rationalizing that the Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Spiritual Israel. The bible simply does not say that.

Paul in Romans 9:3-4 did refer to his brothere, the Jews of his day, as being Israelites, because they were the physical descendants of the Mt. Sinai covenant, the old covenant.

Then he spoke about that they, those who are only children of the flesh, are not the Children of God, though. That makes sense, doesn't it?

We are the children of God, our names writtened down in the Kingdom of God, even though we are gentiles by accepting Jesus... who's coming is found all the way back in Genesis, the seed of the woman who will crush the serpent's head.

The thing I argue with is that some Christians take rationalize that we saved gentiles, as such, have become part of a made-up concept called "Spiritual Israel" which is falsely being presented as the "Kingdom of God"..... which the bible doesn't say.

9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all * Israel, which are of Israel:

9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Cielo, don't you think that if the Kingdom of God is the Kingdom of Spritual Israel.... that it would said so, at least once in the bible?


Peace,

Doug L.

[Lazarus43]

Galatians 6:12-18 (NASB)
Gal 6:12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
Gal 6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
Gal 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
Gal 6:16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy {be} upon them, and upon the Israel of God.
Gal 6:17 From now on let no one cause trouble for me, for I bear on my body the brand-marks of Jesus.
Gal 6:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen.
*Red coloring mine.
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Who is "the Israel of God" Paul refers to in his letter to the non-Jewish Galatians?

[cielohim]

Christ was asked "Are you the King of the Jews"... He replied: "Yes it is as you say"

Dougg you stated:

There is the Kingdom of God. The kingdom of Heaven. Neither are called Spiritual Israel. Jesus did not say it was important to have our names written down as a citizen of "Spiritual Israel, but of the Kingdom of Heaven.

And you stated:

We are Children of Abraham, spiritually speaking, according to the bible.... because Abraham met God's approval according to Faith…

Isn’t it true by scripture that spiritually speaking no one is Abraham’s children unless they are by faith….??? Not even the natural children are Abraham’s children unless they accept the blood of the New Covenant made to Israel... correct... and that is only done by faith?

Christ says to the natural children

Matthew 3:9 “And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.”

John 839"Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."

This is where I believe we as those who have been grafted in to Israel should recognize the purpose of the promise to Abraham, and HOW God fulfilled the promise. But because of our current Church culture and “delusions of grandeur” we have become conceited and prideful. I believe our understanding of the Covenant and the Blood has become dulled in this area….

We must look past what is natural and see what is spiritual. What was God's intent for the promise He made to Abraham, and then How was that proimse fulfilled???

I am going to follow two tracks here. “Kingdom of Heaven” and “Abraham’s seed”. A great number of prophecies in the OT points to One man, That man is Christ the King of the Jews in who is the fulfillment of the Promise to Abraham…….the blood of the New Covenant, scripture says “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned”,

How is it that Christ proclaims He is indeed the King of the Jews but then He says:

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

He proclaims he is the King of the Jews but yet His Kingdom is not of this world????? The Prophecy in revelation says,

Rev 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

How does all the Kingdom talk relate to the promise the Lord made to Abraham? The prophecy says: “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned….”

Dougg you stated: We are Children of Abraham, spiritually speaking, according to the bible.... because Abraham met God's approval according to Faith…

But prophecy tells us the HOW We become Abraham’s children and that is through who? Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned. It is very important for us to understand God’s foresight and intent. It was by his plan he chooses to redeem a people for himself in this way..... we did not and do not now have a say as to how.... and why... It is what it is...

According to scripture in fulfillment of the prophecy and promise made to Abraham IE “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned” we read:

Matthew 1:1 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:…..

Whose Son was Jesus?

Matthew 1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,

Matthew 1:17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.

Jesus, Son of Abraham,..... but to get to Jesus some generations passed... and before Jesus came Isaac, Jacob (Israel)..... Judah,.... David... and Jesus... "Through Isaac your offsring will be reckoned"...

And Now The Israelites are like the sand of the sea.... included in that number are the gentiles who were called according to the proimse fulfilled in the Blood of the New Covenant poured out for you, Made to the House of Israel, the only Nation God has redeemed a people for himself.

"Are you the King of the Jews?", "Yes it is as you say"...."My Kingdom is not of this world,.... But now my Kingdom is not from this place".... A man is not a Jew unless he is one inwardly, and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit"

When He returns and fights for His Kingdom where on this earth is He going to come to? Jerusalem.... why? According to scripture whose offspring are those found in Christ? They are Abraham's.... and through whom aret they recokened. Through Isaac by.... the blood of a Covenant made to what nation?.... Israel.... Who is Christ bringing with him when he returns?

According to scripture whose side do those who die in the Lord go? They go to Abraham's side.... why? .... They are his offspring.

If Abraham is alive, and Isaac is alive and Jacob who is (Israel) is Alive.....and David is there with them.... and Christ is also Alive and with them even now..... and the promises and prophecies are true then.... Where is the true nation of Israel right now? Remember:

Matthew 22:32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

They are alive Dougg, Alive right now.... He is the God of the living....so where is the true nation of Israel and who is included in their numbers if by faith they are covered by the blood of the Covenant made to only ONE nation on this Earth...?

His purpose was always Eternal, that is why everything made, given to Israel was a shadow of what was in Heaven.... so by the Blood of the Covenant made to Israel.... Christ walked through the most holy place in Heaven. See Hebrews 8,9

Prophecy and scripture indicate that Israel is the only nation God has redeemed a people for himself also that that Kingdom was intended to be an Eternal inheritance upon this earth. One that is coming with the Lord when he returns.

In him,

Cielohim

[Douggg]

This is where I believe we as those who have been grafted in to Israel should recognize the purpose of the promise to Abraham, and HOW God fulfilled the promise.

Chapter and verse which specifically say that we have beeing grafted into Israel?

We have been grafted into God's family..... not Israel. The tree is God's family. The tree is not Israel.

Peace,

Doug L.

[Lazarus43]

Acts 2:5-12 (NASB)
Act 2:5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, "Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?
Act 2:8 "And how is it that we each hear {them} in our own language to which we were born?
Act 2:9 "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our {own} tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God."
Act 2:12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
*Red coloring mine.
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Why are "devout men from every nation under heaven" referred to as Jews in the above passage?

Also:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.

Peter addresses the same men in Acts 2:22, "Men of Israel, listen to these words..."

Also:

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

Peter included "devout men from every nation under heaven" (from Acts 2:5) in the group of men he called "all the house of Israel" in Acts 2:36. He did not make a mistake.

"About three thousand souls" out of "all the house of Israel" were added to the church that day. Many were not born in Judea.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Douggg]

[quote="Lazarus43"][b]Acts 2:5-12 (NASB)
Laz, those were blood descendants, of the twelve tribes, and were Jews living in Jerusalem, having either moved there or were visiting from foreign lands where they were originally raised and borne.... they were not gentiles. It would be the equivalent like if a Jew of today who was borne and raised in NYC, who spoke nothing but English, moving to Jerusalem - and heard the Apostles speak to them in English, and not Hebrew.

2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

See, Peter even calls them men who lived in Judea and Jerusalem...

2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


I am not sure of your point. Nonetheless, they were not gentiles who after becoming saved at the end of Acts 2.... to become "Spiritual Israel". They already were Israel but having come out of exile to live in Jerusalem (Acts 2:5)

Peace,

Doug L.

[Bob the Quiet]

I can't say for certain just what point Laz is trying to make, but Acts 2 is clear-cut proof that the Church has been a Jewish body from the begining. By faith Gentiles are counted among the descendants of Abraham, and thus are Jews (in effect) by faith.

And Doug, I've already posted the appropriate Scripture a few times in this thread.

[Lazarus43]

Laz, those were blood descendants, of the twelve tribes, and were Jews living in Jerusalem, having either moved there or were visiting from foreign lands where they were originally raised and borne.... they were not gentiles...

...I am not sure of your point. Nonetheless, they were not gentiles who after becoming saved at the end of Acts 2.... to become "Spiritual Israel". They already were Israel but having come out of exile to live in Jerusalem (Acts 2:5)

Peace,

Doug L.

I think you may be beginning to understand. These men were not all ethnic "Jews" born in Judea. All twelve tribes were represented and called "the house of Israel." Many were born in foreign nations. The group from foreign nations included "both Jews and proselytes." When those who had been born gentiles became "proselytes" and joined the faith of ethnic members of "the house of Israel" what did they become? What were they when they joined the church through faith in Jesus Christ?

Who is "the Israel of God" Paul writes about in Galatians 6:16...?
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Also, the concept of "lost tribes of Israel" is not found in the New Testament. A returned remnant from the northern kingdom called Israel was included in the group called "Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven" in Acts 2:5.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Douggg]

Laz, those were blood descendants, of the twelve tribes, and were Jews living in Jerusalem, having either moved there or were visiting from foreign lands where they were originally raised and borne.... they were not gentiles...

...I am not sure of your point. Nonetheless, they were not gentiles who after becoming saved at the end of Acts 2.... to become "Spiritual Israel". They already were Israel but having come out of exile to live in Jerusalem (Acts 2:5)

Peace,

Doug L.

I think you may be beginning to understand. These men were not all ethnic "Jews" born in Judea. All twelve tribes were represented and called "the house of Israel." Many were born in foreign nations. The group from foreign nations included "both Jews and proselytes." When those who had been born gentiles became "proselytes" and joined the faith of ethnic members of "the house of Israel" what did they become? What were they when they joined the church through faith in Jesus Christ?

They were Jews who were borne and raised in foreign countries other than Israel and became Christians - what does that have to do with "Spiritual Israel"?

"both Jews and proselytes" means Jews and those who had converted to Judasim. They all became Chldren of God when they accepted Jesus.

Who is "the Israel of God" Paul writes about in Galatians 6:16...?

You can go to this link for an explanation on the issue.... http://www.raptureready.com/featured/Th ... OfGod.html

here is an excerpt....

Hebrew Christian scholar, Arnold Fruchtenbaum summaries the passage as follows:

Galatians is concerned with Gentiles who were attempting to attain salvation through the Law. The ones deceiving them were the Judaizers, who were Jews demanding adherence to the Law of Moses. To them, a Gentile first had to convert to Judaism before he was qualified for salvation through Christ. In verse fifteen Paul states that the important thing for salvation is faith, resulting in the new man. He then pronounces a blessing on two groups who would follow this rule of salvation by faith alone. The first group is the them, the Gentile Christians to and of whom he had devoted most of the epistle. The second group is the Israel of God. These are Hebrew Christians who, in contrast with the Judaizers, followed the rule of salvation by faith alone. Again a distinction between the two groups is seen, for the Hebrew Christians alone are the Israel of God. It is a matter of position which here acts out a definite function.[9]

Israel Always Means Israel.....


Peace,

Doug L.

[Douggg]

I can't say for certain just what point Laz is trying to make, but Acts 2 is clear-cut proof that the Church has been a Jewish body from the begining. By faith Gentiles are counted among the descendants of Abraham, and thus are Jews (in effect) by faith.

And Doug, I've already posted the appropriate Scripture a few times in this thread.

http://www.raptureready.com/featured/Th ... OfGod.html

Peace,

Doug L.

[bchandler]

Douggg,

I have a few questions for you:

1. Do you believe a blood Jew can be saved?

2. Do you believe that Jews carry a blood taint?

3. Do you believe that Jews are "Christ killers"?

4. Do you believe that the Church is 100% gentile?

5. Do you believe that Jesus was not both the son of God and David?

Some of your responses douggg have caused me to begin to question your motives... and I can't help but see just how hard you are working to ignore some very simple and basic ideas presented to us from scripture.

Douggg how is our adoption by faith into BOTH Isreal as Abraham's spiritual seed, and into Israel both literally through Jesus and spiritually through Jesus is in any way unclear?

What exactly is the problem with seeing yourself as a Jew, or an Israelite?

What exactly is the problem seeing yourself as a grafted in branch to the family tree? God's family, which by faith the word tells us plainly is also Abraham's family, which the word tells us plainly that by faith, we become Abraham's seed.

Just because the bible doesn't use the coined phrase "spiritual Israel" doesn't mean it aint so... just like it doesn't use the term rapture...

OK Douggg... so there is no spiritual Israel... then if I am to interpret scripture directly... I, as a believer in Christ, am more an Israelite than any blood borne descendant. I by faith am a child of Israel through the line of Abraham, Jacob(Israel), Judah, Jesse, David, Jesus.

So, go ahead... leave off the word spiritual in the term spiritual Israel... and it makes it even more plain that we today are the true Israelites... hmmm... maybe it is we who are gathered to Jerusalem and inherit the kingdom...

How exactly do you ignore the parallels between the old testament proselyte being "baptised into Israel" and becoming a Jew by faith, and the new testament proselyte being "baptised into Jesus" and becoming a Jew by faith in Jesus? Even the blood Jews in Jesus day were rededicating themselves to God and reclaiming their "spiritual" heritage by submitting to John's baptism... which in essence was the proselyte's baptism... to declare their relationship with Israel by faith.. and not just by blood...hmmm... you think maybe this is part of the reason God was so pleased with Jesus when he being perfect had John baptise him?(there's an interesting study)

Why is this concept so distasteful to you?

Do you support replacement theology?

What is driving this reesistance to God's word in you douggg?

[Douggg]

Douggg,

I have a few questions for you:

1. Do you believe a blood Jew can be saved?

Definitely.

2. Do you believe that Jews carry a blood taint?

I don't know what that term means.

3. Do you believe that Jews are "Christ killers"?

Definitely not. Jesus forgave the Jews of their participation in the crucifixion, that very day on the cross.

4. Do you believe that the Church is 100% gentile?

The Church is neither Jew nor Gentile.

5. Do you believe that Jesus was not both the son of God and David?

Jesus is the Lord from heaven. Jesus is God. Jesus is both David's root and his descendant.

Some of your responses douggg have caused me to begin to question your motives... and I can't help but see just how hard you are working to ignore some very simple and basic ideas presented to us from scripture.

I am opposed to the idea that equates the Kingdom of God as being the made up that we gentiles who become Christianss are now part of "Spiritual Israel" not in bible concept.

Douggg how is our adoption by faith into BOTH Isreal as Abraham's spiritual seed, and into Israel both literally through Jesus and spiritually through Jesus is in any way unclear?

We are the seed of Abraham only in the sense that Abraham pleased God according to faith, which we do by our faith in Jesus. Israel rejected Jesus, for just the opposite reason, not faith.... so why would I want to be known as "Spiritual Israel" ? The tree that we are adopted into is the family of God, not the kingdom of Israel.

What exactly is the problem with seeing yourself as a Jew, or an Israelite?

Because it is a step backwards, toward apostacy IMHO, from the high calling which is Christ Jesus. It is degrading from that which Jesus died for us to step down from being a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven to be likened to be an earthly tribe - Jew, Israelite, American, whatever. There is no higher calling than being a Christian - which is neither Jew nor Gentile. I see being an Israelite, or Jew, or Gentile..... as not even being close to being the great gift that by grace God has bestowed upon us by being a Christian.

What exactly is the problem seeing yourself as a grafted in branch to the family tree? God's family, which by faith the word tells us plainly is also Abraham's family, which the word tells us plainly that by faith, we become Abraham's seed.

As I said, the family tree, is the family of God.... not the family of Israel.

Abraham even had two sons, Issac and Ismael. Ismael was also promised to be a great people. The bible doesn't say that we, as Christians, are the seed of either of those. It is erroneous to equate the seed Abraham as being the seed of Israel..... which is what I those pushing "Spiritual Israel" doing.

Just because the bible doesn't use the coined phrase "spiritual Israel" doesn't mean it aint so... just like it doesn't use the term rapture...

That is a non-argument. The wording in 2thess4:15-18, as I understand it in the greek is found the root word for Rapture. Even so, I don't have a problem with using some other phrase such as the "cathcing up". On the other hand, "Spiritual Israel" is not interchangeable with a different phrase... because the entire concept is inseparbale from the words "Spiritual
Israel" themselfs.

OK Douggg... so there is no spiritual Israel... then if I am to interpret scripture directly... I, as a believer in Christ, am more an Israelite than any blood borne descendant. I by faith am a child of Israel through the line of Abraham, Jacob(Israel), Judah, Jesse, David, Jesus.

Whatever, you want to call yourself is your choice of course. It don't make it so. I personally am a Christian though Jesus.... and it is only Jesus that I claim.... I am not going to share any of His Glory with some human, regardless if it is Abraham, Israel, David, whoever.

So, go ahead... leave off the word spiritual in the term spiritual Israel... and it makes it even more plain that we today are the true Israelites... hmmm... maybe it is we who are gathered to Jerusalem and inherit the kingdom...

When it comes to inheriting the Kingdom of God, I leave off not only the term Spiritual, but also Israel, because the Kingdom of God is HIGHER.

How exactly do you ignore the parallels between the old testament proselyte being "baptised into Israel" and becoming a Jew by faith, and the new testament proselyte being "baptised into Jesus" and becoming a Jew by faith in Jesus? Even the blood Jews in Jesus day were rededicating themselves to God and reclaiming their "spiritual" heritage by submitting to John's baptism... which in essence was the proselyte's baptism... to declare their relationship with Israel by faith.. and not just by blood...hmmm... you think maybe this is part of the reason God was so pleased with Jesus when he being perfect had John baptise him?(there's an interesting study)

I don't think I am ignoring anything, but I have things in proper perspective.

Why is this concept so distasteful to you? It is a form of apostacy and degrading to the gospel message, which changes us from being either Jew or Gentlle. I am not going backwards.

Do you support replacement theology? I hate it because it is anti-semitic and is degrading to the high calling of Christ both at the same time.
What is driving this reesistance to God's word in you douggg?

That's a totally unnecessary comment. Out of character for you, BC.


Peace,

Doug L.

[Bob the Quiet]

Doug, you display a rather sad ignorance of certain Scriptures. You claim that being part of a "Spiritual Israel" is a 'step backwards'. This is Scripturally wrong. Any natural descendant of Abraham who rejects Christ is cut off from his people, and is thus no longer part of Israel. Don't believe me?

Deuteronomy 18
15"The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers--it is to him you shall listen-[/i]- 16just as you desired of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.' 17And the LORD said to me, 'They are right in what they have spoken. 18I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. 20But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.' 21And if you say in your heart, 'How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?'-- 22when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

[Douggg]

[quote="Bob the Quiet"]Doug, you display a rather sad ignorance of certain Scriptures. You claim that being part of a "Spiritual Israel" is a 'step backwards'. This is Scripturally wrong. Any natural descendant of Abraham who rejects Christ is cut off from his people, and is thus no longer part of Israel. Don't believe me?

Of course, any blood descendant of Abraham who dies apart from Jesus doesn't inherit eternal life. And futher, any blood descendant of Adam who rejects Jesus doesn't inherit eternal life.... that is the entire human race.

Whether or not a person is a part of Israel or not is secondary.

Jesus and the disciples taught the Kingdom of God, not the Kingdom of Spiritual Israel. I am saved by Christ alone. Not by Christ and Abraham. Not by Christ and Abraham and Jacob. Not by Christ and Abraham and Jacob and David.

God has not called me to be an Israelite. Because His only begotten Son who died for me was Jesus, not Israel. We shall be called by his name... Jesus is the Christ.... therefore, we are called Christians. We are not called Israelites, nor Spiritual Israelites, nor Spiritual Jews. Being a Christian is GREATER than them all.

Jesus said....

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

There is no reason for me to go backwards from what Jesus preached and has by grace given me. That's why I see the teaching that Christians have become Spiritual Israel and Spiritual Jews - as a form of apostasy.
Being called a Christian is the HIGHEST thing a person can be. Why would I want to step away from that and be called an Israelite? That is crazy.


Peace,

Doug L.

[cielohim]

We are warned not to become conceited, nor ignorant of the mystery concerning Israel and those who are found under the blood of the New Covenant.

We have many prophecy and scripture that indicates our relationship as believers ito the Nation of Israel.

Because of our Church Culture we have become arrogant in our teachings and full of the pride of being “Christian” as we have defined it... as our western christian culture has defined it.... I believe that is the spirit in which the following words are spoken:

God has not called me to be an Israelite. Because His only begotten Son who died for me was Jesus, not Israel. We shall be called by his name... Jesus is the Christ.... therefore, we are called Christians. We are not called Israelites, nor Spiritual Israelites, nor Spiritual Jews. Being a Christian is GREATER than them all.

Because it is a step backwards, toward apostacy IMHO, from the high calling which is Christ Jesus. It is degrading from that which Jesus died for us to step down from being a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven to be likened to be an earthly tribe - Jew, Israelite, American, whatever. There is no higher calling than being a Christian –

Is it not Arrogant and prideful to say “It is a step backwards” to be included in Israel if you are Christian. The very sad and dangerous thing about that attitude is that you and others completely feel justified in that position. Even to the point that you think Jesus your Jewish God shares in your sentiment towards Israel... You have a great missunderstanding of what is means to be Christian.

He is the Jewish God of all the world...the one Who fulfilled the New Covenant by His own Blood. The New Covenant made by his Spirit to ONLY the nation of Israel…..

The prophecy and scripture presented has been completely ignored or explained away... The rejection of these truths are greatly based in a dispensational rule saying that God cannot deal with Israel and the Church at the same time. Those teachings are inherently prideful and arrogant. There is no truth in them. They are also ignorant to wonderful truths about being “Christian”. They have distorted the meaning of being "Christian" and ignored our true spiritual heritage for the sake of fleshly issues such as the avoidance of suffering.

Part of being Christian means accepting our heritage. We cannot be separated from that truth even if we refuse to believe it and think it is a step backwards.

It was said: Jesus and the disciples taught the Kingdom of God, not the Kingdom of Spiritual Israel. I am saved by Christ alone. Not by Christ and Abraham. Not by Christ and Abraham and Jacob. Not by Christ and Abraham and Jacob and David.

We are all Saved by Christ alone Dougg, but that truth does not negate the prophecy and scripture telling us what it means to be saved by Christ alone. Christ did not just show up on the seen and then we become part of the Kingdom. There were numerous prophecies and promises that had to be fulfilled and were fulfilled by the coming of the Lord. He must have come through the line of Abraham, and Isaac so Abraham's offspring could be reckoned.

As God saw fit he made a Nation Israel.... the only nation on this earth that God redeemd a people for himself... then Came David, and Then Jesus... So indeed through Isaac you have been reckoned and are now a direct descendent of Jacob (Israel)... or you can say Israelite. Like it or not... it's the truth.

Compare you words to these scriptures:

You state: I am saved by Christ alone. Not by Christ and Abraham. Not by Christ and Abraham and Jacob. Not by Christ and Abraham and Jacob and David.

But Scripture says,

Matthew 1:1 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:…..

Whose Son was Jesus?

Matthew 1:2 Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,

Matthew 1:17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ.

But God said to him, "Do not be so distressed about the boy and your maidservant. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned…… (spoken to Abraham)

Then the Lord said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah……and This is the Blood of the New Covenant which is poured out for you”....15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—

So you see Dougg, you have a heritage, you were born of the Spirit in Christ. And because of the Heritage of Christ your Jewish God and King you have No choice….. You have no choice ….. we have no choice but to accept the line of heritage of which we were born in. And that line is the Kingdom of God......through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel)... Jesus.... so we are all sons of Israel... If we are born of Christ under the blood of the New Covenant.....or in other words Israelites, we will be as the sand of the sea as prophecy states.

Our Spiritual father is the King of the Jews Correct? He tells us for that reason he was born. But we are counted as children of God by being reckoned through Isaac, at least according to scripture.... How is that the case??

Your are correct in saying you are saved by Christ Alone but the truth is you were made a child of God, one of Abraham’s Children by faith in the Blood of the New Covenant made Only to Israel, through Isaac…. Correct????… Is that not what scripture teaches.

Now we know God is not the God of the dead… He is still the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel (Jacob)…. If you are the great great great great…..great …. Great etc….. great grand son of Abraham…. Do you not have to be found as the son of Israel (Jacob)???? Albeit… great great great great...ect... great.. grand son… Now if you are the son of Jacob who is Israel…. Only because you have been born of the Spirit of Jesus….who is a direct descendent of Israel (see Matthew 1) Then Dougg,….. what nation does your spiritual heritage put you in????.....

I'll put it in these words... Jesus is the great great great great great....great etc grand son of Israel.... and He is also your spiritual father.... So if that makes you a Son of Abraham.... who is the grand father of Israel then what nation does your heritage put you in?

It puts you in the Nation of Israel does it not? Why…. Because it was through Isaac that you were reckoned….By faith in a Covenant fulfilled in the blood of the direct descendent of Isaac and Israel... A covenant made only to Israel. The scripture talks about being adopted as Sons.... So what does that mean in light of the prophecy and scriptures presented here.... It means the Lord's purpose of the promise to Abraham... fulfilled in his sons... The nation of Israel was always eternal... see Hebrews 9... or... Doug... The Kingdom of God.... the eternal inheritance...coming right back to this earth, to Jerusalem where Christ descends to.

The nation is a literal nation. You keep on speaking about the Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of God….. If you apply what is given to us in prophecy and scripture then you know…. All those who are Abrham’s children are taken to his side correct??? Where are Abraham and Isaac right now? Are they Alive or Dead?

Is God the God of the living or Dead??? We know Abraham is alive…..and in Heaven where all his Children are taken to his side correct? So if that is the truth and Jesus is a descendent of Abraham, King of the Jews, also a Son of Israel…… by which you were Born…. If indeed he is your spiritual father….(I’m not questioning your faith in him)… Then right now where are the citizens of the Kingdom of Israel (those found under the New Covenant reckoned through Isaac) who have left this earth?

And when does Christ fight for his Kingdom? In prophecy it is at the last trumpet…. (See Rev) Where does prophecy tell us the Kingdom of Heaven ends up Dougg??? It ends up on this Earth.... (Where???) It is brought here by Jesus…..who comes back to the land called Israel....who brings with him all of Abraham’s children who have been reckoned through Isaac,…..Israel…... so all Israel is Saved..... they also can be called Israelites can they not? Are they not the sons of Israel, Children of Abraham.... by Jesus, reckoned through Isaac who is the father of Israel????

The children including you are the spiritual descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel by faith the Blood of the New Covenant Dougg….. and so as the prophecy says… the number of Israelites will indeed by like the sand of the sea. They make up the Kingdom of God. The one Christ will fight for at the appointed time.

We should accept and understand it is through Isaac that you yourself Dougg and I have been reckoned.

If we can understand what that truly means then we will deepen our understanding of what it means to be Christian and destroy the arrogant lies in our hearts towards Israel and begin to see end time prophecy in a less obstructed way. Meaning, not relying on a set of rules coming from outside of the scripture that teach us we “Christians” get special treatment because Israel must be dealt with. That is arrogant and prideful.

And that pride blinds our hearts and will not allow us to accept our position in Israel and so we cannot deepen our understanding... not unless we adopt a sober view of who we are as Christians.... that will be hard to do in this current Church culture especially here in America..... As Christian we are not entitled to and escape of suffering so Israel can be dealt with..... How much more arrogant can we get.... but we continue to justify ourselves in that position..... we do it in almost willful ignorance of what prophecy says about Israel and the blood of the New Covenant.

When the full number of gentiles come in All Israel will be saved, that includes you and I. A large part of the meaning of being Christian is accepting our heritage in the Kingdom of God not being conceited towards the natural branches and humbling oursleves before our Jewish God in thankfullnes for being redeemed as a people for himself. Only one Nation of people have been chosen. 1 Chron 17

What is truly crazy is we wish to be ignorant, prideful and arrogant to these truths to believe we are in a better position than the Israelites. So we choose to believe our God has arranged some special treatment for those who call themselves “Christian”…... and that special treament is based in the saving of our flesh.... saving our flesh from suffering... so our flesh does not have to suffer persecution for the name of Jesus.

If we get to the root maybe some truths will be revealed about end time prophecy along with current deceptions and lies.

In him,

Cielohim

[Douggg]

Cielo, your post and position is so far out of sync with the Word of God that I am not going to spend another second adding to what I have already said.
I am done with this thread.

Peace,

Doug L.

[Mrs. B]

Jesus the Son of God.......The Promise of the Father

St. John 1:10....He was in the world....and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


11.....He came unto his own.......and His own received him not....


12......But as many as received him....to them gave He Power to become the sons of God.......

Sons of God.....

even to them that believed on his name......


13.....Which were Born.....NOT OF BLOOD......NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH......NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN.....BUT...OF GOD.


BORN AGAIN.......

John 3:3.....Jesus said.......Verily Verily I say unto thee....

Except a Man be Born Again........He cannot See the Kingdom of God...


5.....Jesus answered.....Verily I say unto thee.....Except a Man Be Born of water and of the SPIRIT........HE cannot Enter into the Kingdom of God...



6......That which is born of the FLESH is Flesh

and That which is born of the Spirit is Spirit....


7......Marvel Not....that I said unto Thee.....YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN......


We must be born again.....The New Birth is How we enter into the Family of God......Born of the Water and of the Spirit.....

The woman at the well said.....Our fathers worshipped in this mountain.....and ye say...that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship........

Jesus said unto her.....Woman believe me....THE HOUR COMETH....WHEN Ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem WORSHIP THE FATHER......

Ye Worship ye know not what.....We know what we worship:
for salvation is of the Jews...

NOTICE THIS....

BUT....the hour cometh, and NOW Is.....when the True Worshippers shall worship the Father in SPIRIT....AND IN TRUTH.....for the Father seeketh such to worship Him........

24.....GOD IS A SPIRIT.......AND THEY THAT WORSHIP HIM MUST WORSHIP HIM.......IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.....


We are the Born Again sons of God......and we worship God in Spirit and Truth......for the Father seeks such to worship him.....

All the Prophets and the Laws were to bring us to Christ.....and the Promise of the Father.......

Jesus said......Go to Jerusalem and tarry until you receive the Promise of the Father......

What was the Promise of the Father......

It was the pouring out of the Holy Spirit.....The New Birth....Born of the Spirit.......We are in the world but we are not of this world....we are born of God......we are the Children of the Most High God......The God of Heaven and the creator of all things.......

Abraham sought for a city whoes Builder and Maker was God.....Not Jerusalem of this world......But he sought a Spiritual City....a City not Built with Hands......He saught Heavenly Jerusalem.....

Jesus said.....Abraham saw my day and rejoiced........

Jesus said.....And this is the will of him that sent me...that every one which seeth the Son.....and believeth on him....May have Everlasting Life...and I will raise him up at the last day......


It is the Spirit that quickeneth.......the flesh profiteth nothing:
the words that I speak unto you.....They are Spirit and they are Life....

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him.....If ye continue in my word...then are ye my disciples indeed.....

We the believers are the House of God......
Hebrews 3:6......BUT Christ as a son over His Own House;
whose house are we.....if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end......

Peter wrote....
I Pet.2:9......But....Ye are a Chosen Generation.....
A Royal Priesthood.......AN HOLY NATION......AN HOLY NATION
A Peculiar People....that Ye should show forth the Praises of Him....who hath CALLED YOU OUT OF DARKNESS.....into His Marvellous Light.....

Ye also......as lively stones, are built up A SPIRITUAL HOUSE......AND HOLY PRIESTHOOD....TO OFFER UP SPIRITUAL SACRIFICES.....ACCEPTABLE TO GOD.....BY JESUS CHRIST......

We....the Church are His Witnesses.....We are the Light of the Worldl....

we are to show forth His Glory.....

This was God's Plan from the Beginning......To have a Holy People that would show forth His Praises......

Israel was called......but rebelled.....and rejected His words...His Law and in this end time.......God will do a short work with the children of Abraham by the flesh.....to cause them to turn to Him.......but....they have to come just like you......they must accept Jesus as the Messigh and the only begotton Son of God.......This is how they....enter into eternal life....The message is the same........Jesus is the Door....There is no other way........The first believers....Jewish believers....were called Christians....Christ in you......They had the same Holy Spirit.....the Spirit of God that dwelled in Jesus......was in them......so today....we too must be born of the Spirit.....Jesus said....Go to Jerusalem and tarry unto you receive the Promise of the Father......the Holy Spirit......This is what saperated us from the world.....we become One in Him.....One Spirit

We are saved by Faith just Like Abraham believed God....and it we accounted unto Him for righteousness.....so we must believe.....by our faith we become the children of Abraham.....by faith........Without Faith it is impossible to Please Him........

This Gospel......is to be preached into all the world for all Nations.....He who hears....this Gospel....and believes and is born again....is added to the Kingdom of God.....He becomes the son of the Most High......

Rev. 1:5......And from Jesus Christ, who is the Faithful Witness....and the First Begotten of the Dead.....and the Prince of the Kings of the Earth....
Unto Him....that loved us....and Washed us from Our sins in His Own Blood....

6......And hath Made us Kings and Priest unto God and His Father:
to Him be Glory and Dominion for Ever and Ever...A-men

To be born of God is greater then any earthly heritage....to be born of the spirit of God......and worship God in the spirit and in truth......





bb

[bchandler]

Douggg,

I had no wish to offend you, it is just that your resistance... to the concept that our adoption, and our heritage in Jesus includes our adoption into and heritage in Israel... is so great and so vehement, and some of your comments so anti-jewish, it caused me to question what was motivating you.

Now that you have explained your position a little more clearly, let me offer you this to think on Douggg.

Spiritual Irsael IS the kindom of God. This spiritual Israel we are speaking of IS God's kingdom... it IS the kingdom not of this world(yet). It IS the kingdom and the tree that we are grafted into. It IS the kingdom and the tree that for unbelief the natural branches were cut off.

So... take out the words spiritual Israel, and put in the words Kingdom of God/Heaven... and look at the word of God again.

God is no respector of persons, and he will judge Jew and Gentile alike... by their faith in Jesus and by their works.

Every blood borne and adopted son shall be found in him by their faith in Jesus. Every Jew who deny's Jesus and every gentile who deny's Jesus shall be reconed as sons of satan... just as Jesus declared to the pharisees of his day.

So.. you are correct Douggg, that God's kingdom is greater, and that it is first and foremost a spiritual kingdom, but I think what you are missing is that that kingdom will not remain only spiritual... it will come physically to fruition as well, and that as adopted sons and daughters, our heritage is in Jesus, who is an Israelite. If we are adopted sons to God and our adoption is accomplished both spiritually and physically through Jesus, then we are adopted both spiritually and physically into Israel.

This adoption, both literal and spiritual is acctually a fulfillment of prophecy Douggg!! It is not going backward... it is first and foremost what being a Christian is!! We are baptised into Jesus Christ, and that by becoming a Christian, and being baptised INTO Jesus, we are at the same time baptised INTO Israel, because of Jesus heritage as both son of God and son of Israel, we are baptised into BOTH, and become a partaker of the promises made to Israel.

So Douggg, in some ways you are splitting hairs in my opinion, and doing so unnecessarly. Because the heritage cielihim is speaking of is only available to Christians, both Jew and Gentile alike. Because the blood borne Israelite who denys Jesus has been striped of his heritage as much as the gentile who believes has received it by adoption.

Again I apologize if I offended you... but I felt it necessary to ask those questions, to give you an oportunity to clarify your stand so I did not misinterpret where you were coming from...because it was starting to look as if you were comming from a very anti-semitic place... and it seemed very out of character with the person I have come to know here.

[bchandler]

Douggg,

Also the concept of reconing THROUGH Isaac. This doesn't mean that Abraham, Isaac, David or anyone inbetween them had anything to do with our salvation beyond being the bloodline chosen for Messiah.

Our reconning, or reconciliation to God is through none but Jesus... But Jesus came through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jesse, David etc... The THROUGH is just the bloodline... the WORK of reconciliation is ONLY by Jesus Christ.

If you thought Cielohim or I were saying anything different... you are mistaken.

[Mttw633]

John 10:16

16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. (Jesus speaking to the jews)
Ezekiel 37:16-22

16 "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, 'Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, 'Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.' 17 Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.

18 "When your countrymen ask you, 'Won't you tell us what you mean by this?' 19 say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim's hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.' 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. ..v24 My servant Daivid will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd.

One shepherd, one flock; one king, one kingdom. No longer two-but one.

ps. The New Jerusalem Rev 21:12
It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.

[cielohim]

This adoption, both literal and spiritual is acctually a fulfillment of prophecy Douggg!! It is not going backward... it is first and foremost what being a Christian is!! We are baptised into Jesus Christ, and that by becoming a Christian, and being baptised INTO Jesus, we are at the same time baptised INTO Israel, because of Jesus heritage as both son of God and son of Israel, we are baptised into BOTH, and become a partaker of the promises made to Israel.

Dougg, we are brothers in the Lord. I believe you have great faith in Christ. One of the purposes of this discussion is for dialogue, revelation, truth and to deepen our understanding of what it truly means to be "Christian" by looking at the prophecies. It is not for any kind of offense. Although the discussion may challenge many commonly held perceptions of our “Christian hood”.

I believe we need to get back to our roots in the faith and dispel many of the arrogant teachings that are plaguing our body especially here in America. Those teachings directly effect how we view end time prophecy and other areas in our faith.

Numerous prophecies and scripture has been presented here but I don't think they have been adequately address by you. You have made flat denials of the scripture presented but you did not address what the prophecy and scripture actually says...

You said:

Cielo, your post and position is so far out of sync with the Word of God that I am not going to spend another second adding to what I have already said.

If you say that my position is unbiblical… then please restate the scripture that has been presented and show us by scripture and prophecy that:

We are not grafted in to Israel.
That Jesus’ bloodline is not from Isaac and Abraham, who is the grandfather of Israel.
That you were not spiritually born by the King of Israel and now posses his Heritage.
That the New Covenant was made only to Israel and no gentile nation.
That by the New Covenant God writes his law on the hearts and minds of those who have faith in the blood of the New Covenant.
That Abraham, Isaac, Israel are not Alive in the Kingdom right now receiving his children…. The spiritual children reckoned through Isaac… father of Israel…. Born by Christ, Son of Israel, son of Abraham, who is the father of Isaac.
That only spiritual children will posses the eternal inheritance given by the Blood of the New Covenant made only to the house of Israel.. thus making Israel the Kingdom of Heaven/Kingdom of God, that will be revealed from heaven in us when Christ appears coming back to Israel to posses the eternal inheritance belonging to those under the New Covenant.

If you can show me in the scripture where none of the above is true then I will have no choice but to agree 100% with the scripture you present. And not because of you Dougg, but because of the TRUTH that is in scripture no matter who presents it.

We have lost many of the fundamental truths of our faith because of arrogant teachings and our "Christian Culture" if you will. Some of the comments you made could be taken as very anti-Semitic but sad to say very “Christian”… And worse… we believe we are correct and justified with the position we take as “The Church” and being “Christian”

I believe that position is a dangerous misconception about who we are in Christ as “Christian” because of how it influences the way we look at scripture, end time prophecy, and other areas of our faith. The pride of what we believe to be "Christian" blinds us.. but if we don’t recognize the deception and arrogance inherent in our culture and what we have learned… then we feel like we are justified because “we have faith in Christ” and we are the “Church of God”…. So the deception is complete... and our understanding of what it means to be “the Church or Christian” is actually a misunderstanding as it relates to who are in Christ and his nation of Israel.

We have effectively in our hearts and minds especially in western christian culture made Jesus in to a "gentile God"... Who is the God of the "Church" and in no way possible does the "Gentile Church" have any relationship to or In Israel.... So our pride blinds us and we continue to be ignorant of the "mystery" as Paul states, expalined again and again in prophecy and scripture. There was also a warning not to become conceited.

Again, that has a direct influence about how we look at other areas of scripture and prophecy. Even to the point of denying the true meaning of many scriptures and prophecies.

If the discussion is challenging what you have been currently taught about what it means to be Christian then don’t be done with the thread…. Let’s have fruitful dialogue so we can sharpen each other. If my position is way off and I am not representing the scripture in a correct manner then in the spirit of love… show me.

If what you present challenges me and I need to change my position because I am off base as it pertains to the truth of scripture then… please show me so I can grow… I guarantee I will not be done with the thread if what you present challenges beliefs that I now hold. In fact I will need to get back in the word pray and study more so I can know the truth of the matter.

In him,

Cielohim

[cielohim]

Referencing many of the scriptures above concerning a person who is Abraham’s Child reckoned through Isaac, in the line of Jacob who is Israel found under the Blood of the New Covenant made to the House of Israel, born in the line of Jesus, King of the Jews……son of Abraham, Isaac, Israel…

How does prophecy and scripture support or negate the dispensational rule about Israel and the Church.

It is my belief that no such doctrine is found within our Bible. No scripture can be used to support such as statement and that the Basis of the pretrib doctrine of prophecy can be put to rest at it’s Root of the dispensational law that is sprang up from. IE: God cannot deal with Israel until the Church age is over. Therefore the Church must be removed; Hence the pretribulational gathering of the saints. I believe showing the base of the pretrib doctrine to be a lie removes any foundation for the truth of any part of the doctrine.

I believe the dispensation rule can be shown to be a lie affecting how one views him or herself in Christ, how one views end time prophecy and how one views who “Israel” truly is.

Stemming from that one law is an inherit and deceptive pride of entitlement and exception. The arrogance of the rule can be shown if one is willing to reason about its conclusions…. But the arrogance and conceit is rarely seen because of the belief in the rule it’s self. And that is the danger of the justified deception. Truly feeling justified by what we believe Christ has entitled us to.

IE: An escape of persecution and suffering for his name. ahhhh but the Jews and other saints are the ones who must suffer because they are not consider the bride of Christ nor were they counted worthy to eat with him.

So, if scripture and prophecy actually teaches that to be found under the Blood of the New Covenant made to the house of Israel is to be descendent of Abraham, Isaac, Israel and we are considered “Israelites” by scripture. What does that do to the dispensational rule that is not actually found in the scripture itself concerning the Church and Israel

In him,

Cielohim

[mark s]

Cielohim, how do you interpret Romans 11:25, and what is your understanding of the Sheep and Goats judgment in Matt. 25?

Love in Christ,
Mark

PS, I downloaded your above post and am taking it home for the wknd. Hopefully I will have some available time to present a response. This is a pretty full weekend. No Matter.

[cielohim]

Mark,

I believe for me to correctly understand what romans 11:25 truly means I needed to look at events and prophecy that Paul referenced when explaning the meanings of certain OT prophecy.

So I wanted to look at some OT prophecy and scripture along with the verses they pertain to in the NT. By far the list is far from all inclusive but I believe there is enough evidence from the scripture I have listed to arrive at a conclusion to a greater meaning that holds true for all believers. And so the mystery that Paul did not want us to be ignorant of or become conceited about should be clear.

That is if don't reject the truth of the prophecies and scriptures. Again I believe the dispensational rule concerning Israel and the Church does just that. It rejects plain truths about our relationship as believers to our eternal inheritance in Christ through Israel.... Isaac.... Abraham. Not only does the rule reject those truths... it also teaches a deceptive arrogance and conceit towards the supposed "Jew" of Israel that must come to repentence... but has to suffer to do so while the gentile church has been removed from suffering.

That position is unscriptural Paul said that He was an Israelite himself and that God did not reject his people... he also stateed that at that present time 2000 years ago there was indeed a remnant.... how much more so after 2000 years??? I am saying that over that time there has probably been more than 2000 believers who are natural descendents of Abraham.... throught the line of Isaac.

I will address the sheeps and goats afterwards.

Romans 11:25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in…..

26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]

Romans 11:1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew…….. 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Romans 9: 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.


Gen 15: 15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore.

Romans 8: 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ,….. Hebrew 8: 15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance

Exodus 32:13Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' "

Romans 4:13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.


, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved…..26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: Romans 11:25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in

From some of the scriptures above I will speak about my understanding of Romans 11:25

In him,

Cielohim

[cielohim]

I am going to have to take the long way around. From Adam, In his sovereignty He made man in his own image… A image he saw fit enough to actually indwell in Christ. IE: The word became flesh. We are told God has bound every man over to sin so that he may have mercy on all men…. That mercy is found by faith in the Blood of the New Covenant made to the house of Israel.. so believers partake in an eternal inheritance found in promises made to Abraham and his descendents. It is said in scripture Abraham is heir of the world. Romans 4

It was always God’s plan to bring his Kingdom and Rule this Earth for eternity… .. thus those found in Christ covered by the blood of the New Covenant will receive the eternal inheritance… But who was the inheritance made to by promise? And what is the heavenly city called? It was made to Abraham and his descendents and it is called Jerusalem. We know the ending

6He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End….. 10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

When looking at the true meaning of it all, we are told Abraham is the heir of the world. We are also told that it is through Isaac that all of Abraham’s children will be reckoned. In time the true nature of God’s actions were revealed, from the creation to, Adam, to Abraham, Isaac, Israel, the law, to binding all men over to sin to show mercy to us all Jew and Gentile.

“Israel” of Christ’s time believed it was to be an earthly kingdom and so many natural descendents left Christ and turned away from their faith in him when he did not deliver them from their Roman rulers. Instead he went and died…. But Christ told us “But now my Kingdom is from another place” or else his servants would have fought his arrest. Luke

So there is a direct reason why we read in scripture God choose only One nation to bear his name on this earth and to redeem a people for himself 1 Chron. That nation received all the copies “types” if you will, of the Jerusalem that is in Heaven. Those are some reason why I believe the New Covenant was made only to Israel…. Because... of the promises made to Abraham.. remeber it is through Isaac that Abraham “inherits” the world. Jacob (Israel) is Isaac's Son. So who else would the New Covenant be made with so that Abraham's desecndents become like the stars and sand...... which by default knowing or unknowingly makes all those who have true faith in the blood of the New Covenant heirs and descendents of Israel.... or as scripture calls them "Israelites" in fullfillment of the promises made to Abraham.

So because of Christ their numbers (The Israelites) are as promised, scripture says like the stars in the sky and the sand of the sea. Albeit only a remnant of the natural descendents are included in that number. They (We) are still Israel according to the promise, only because we are heirs with Christ. He is the King of the Jews and of Israel and he is bringing the Kingdom that he will fight for when he returns…... He did not say the current Kingdom was his... He said "But now my Kingdom if from another Place"

We must understand that the heirs of the eternal inheritance are only those who have faith in the blood of the New Covenant and not only that we must understand the origins of the promises about the inheritance and to whom they were made and how they are fulfilled. So we are not ignoant nor become conceited as we have in some of our teachings

No believer can or should separate themselves from these truths. Our understanding has been dulled and we are blinded by our “great Christian culture” and many many wonderful teachings. (sarcasm) Not that everything about our culture is very bad. There are many believers doing many good works for the kingdom even in this apostate age we live in. I think understanding our origins will deepen our understanding of our faith and even bring light to some end time events in prophecy

In him,

Cielohim

[cielohim]

When I read Roman’s 11 and the body of prophecy and scripture surrounding the mystery that Paul is explaining to us. I believe it is evident that “All Israel” will be saved after the full number of gentiles have come in. That is exactly what the scripture says. If we study the prophecy that Paul quotes concerning gentiles, we can see in many of them there is no distinction made about Jew or Gentile in reference to the nation of Israel who is Jacob.

Concerning Gentiles Paul quotes Isaiah, Jeri, Hosea and the prophecies that pertain to “Israel/Jacob” Here is an example:

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Paul is referencing a prohpecy the Lord spoke to Israel. God said, “this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins” that prophecy can be found in Jeremiah. That prophecy can be seen thought the NT in reference to gentile believers. We find it again in Hebrews and other places.

I have heard it said that the gentiles are not coming in to Israel but from the plain reading of this scripture looking at the subject “Israel” who has experience a hardening albeit “in part” has experienced that hardening until when? The full number of gentiles has come in….. then we read the words “and so” followed by “as it is written” But after we read “and so” the subject is identified as “All Israel” and then we read prophecy that is being fulfilled by “the full number of gentiles coming in” that is signified by “as it is written”… So it seems from the plan reading of the scripture that Paul is telling us that when the full number of gentiles comes in….. then “All Israel will be saved” It could be read “and so All Israel will be saved when the full number of gentiles have come in”

Paul then directs us towards OT prophecy concerning the mystery that he just explained and the prophecy all pertains to a Covenant made to the house of Israel and references Israel and Jacob, he says “as it is written”

Knowing from scripture that not even the natural branches are considered descendents of Israel nor even Abraham’s children and are cut off and knowing the word tells us it is through Isaac that we the Children of God are reckoned in to his family by faith in the blood of the New Covenant made only to the house of Israel then we can safely understand that we are indeed coming in to the nation of God whose name is Israel. What other nation could the covenant be made with to fulfill the promise to Abraham that his decedents would be like the stars of the sky and the sand of the sea? Isn't Israel his grandson....therefore the Israelites his children?

Again, we must be reckoned through Isaac, is Isaac not the father of Israel?? Jew and Gentile alike must be reckoned through Isaac inorder to be included in "Israel the nation of God". That is by God's design and purpose. As gentiles we do not have an option to choose. And we know now that is by faith in the blood of the New Covenant extended to us by grace.... because Jesus, a Jew who is the Lord God became flesh in the line of Isaac, father of the nation of Israel to whom all the eternal promises were made.

But we also have the understanding where that nation resides, that it is a Spiritual and Eternal nation and that it will be coming down from heaven with it’s King whom scripture tells us we are co-heirs with.

Here are some “think about” questions that I have meditated on. Now as believers if we are co-heirs of Christ, what are we co-heris of? Heirs of what? The nation of God was established by God before “the Church” in his wisdom he called that nation Israel, who is Abraham’s grandson because of the promise made to Abraham, Isaac is the father of Israel (Jacob)…. All the eternal promises were made only to the nation of Israel because of the promises made to Abraham. How then is it we as “gentile believers” can all of a sudden apply those promises to our selves without being included in the nation called Israel??? I don't believe we can simply for the fact that the promises were not made to us..... they were made to Abraham and his descedents....

We have been shown the way to become a descendent of Abraham but we reject the notion of that meaning we must be included in Israel, who is Abraham's grandson, Isaac is Israel's father the line of which "THE WAY"being Jesus was born.... and we reject that notion largely because we have become ignorant of these truths and conceited in our great teachings. One being the false dispensational rule about Israel and the Church.

I believe the mystery Paul is explaining to us is how gentiles are now included by grace in the nation of God being called sons of God, sons of Abraham... now being able to partake in the promises made only to Israel. Now by the blood of the New Covenant of the God who became flesh as a Jew…. Jesus son of Israel, Isaac and Abraham to whom the promises were made, we can now enter the Kingdom. His purpose was always an eternal inheritance We as gentiles do not have any say about how God has done this great thing. If the promises were made only to the Descendents of Abraham, through Isaac,… who is the father Israel and we are not included in the nation of God, then how do we get to experience the promises made only to the Nation of Israel, descendent of Abraham? .....We don’t....

That is why it is said we are co-heirs with Christ to the promises the Lord God made to Abraham. Those promises are realized by being a descendent of Abraham. For that reason and others the New Covenant made in the blood of our Lord was made only to Israel. God fulfilled his promises, that we made far before the "Church" arrived on the scene...

If we are born of the Spirit of a Jew…. Who happens to be the Lord God and He is King of Israel…. Then what heritage have we been given? What are we heirs of? If we read the OT we will find the promises that were made and to whom they were made and we know now How they are fulfilled.... and by the revelation of this mystery we know now the Lord was speaking of a spiritual Kingdom made up of Jews and Gentiles alike… none the less called Israel, the New Jerusalem which will be established upon this earth when he returns. The Kingdm of Heaven.... all things new God will dwell with man. Rev 20,21

In him,

Cielohim