Justified Deception: Biblical Citizens of Israel

[cielohim]

Certain teachings concerning Israel coming from western theology should be tested and their effects discussed. If we can derive a clear understanding of a believers relationship in the nation of Israel, And the Nature of the citizens of Israel.... (the True Israel)... then those teachings may be replaced with the truth of the word. .... Which inturn may reveal how many believers justify a deception and have been taught a hidden conceit in their view towards Israel.

According to the Bible Israel is a Spiritual Nation... there is no other Israel. Not even natural descendents may enter or even be called by the name of Israel if they are not found to be in the new covenant.

Many current teachings are basd is in a selfabsorbed misunderstanding of the relationship a believer made clean by the new covenant has to the Nation (Israel) to whom the covenant was made.

Here is how the Lord God stated the covenent: Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. A covenant fulfilled by the blood of a Jewish God/King. If one is Born in the line of Christ....then what does that mean... what heritage has been given by the Birth in the Spirit? One is not a Jew unless his or her heart is circumsized by the Spirit Romans 2:29

The teachings and current culture delude believers as to our true relationship to Israel and the New Covenant. And instill a false sense of pride and entitlement that may cause some to stumble, And also influences how Israel is veiwed in end time prophecy.

We must remember that only One nation has been chosen to bear the name of Christ… that nation is Israel. And they have not been forsaken but strengthened and made like the sand of the sea by the New Covenant although only a remnant are saved.... All Israel is saved.

I Chron 17:“21 And who is like your people Israel—the one nation on earth whose God went out to redeem a people for himself”

In him,

Cielohim

[Douggg]

Brother Cielo, when Gog/Magog occures....what country are they going to invade? And is that country defended by God...when Gog/Magog attacks?

Peace,

Doug L.

[cielohim]

In understanding to whom the covenant was made and what that means, I believe may give a deep insight to our relationship in the nation of Israel.

Was the covenant made to a gentile nation? No It was made to the House of Israel and Judah (a house in Israel).Here is how the Lord God stated his new covenant: Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

The prophecy that the Lord spoke in Jeremiah 31:31 was fulfilled to the House of Israel ,,,,This is what Christ says about the new covenant: Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you…..

So, if only a remnant of Israel is saved as OT prophecy states as Paul restates what was already written before him…..Then what does that truly mean about a “believers” place in the true nation of Israel. Are we not grafted in…. are we not the children of the promise? We are just that. Who have we come in to? Ans: Israel.

Paul tells us in Romans 9: 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved…

Israel has experienced a hardening, as we know until the full number of Gentiles has come in to Israel so all “Israel” is saved. How then can one justify separating Israel from believers and believers from Israel?

We know not even the natural branches are Israel….. We know only the children of the promise of the New Covenant made to Israel fulfilled in the blood of a Jewish God/King are the true nation of Israel (jew and gentile)

Israel is a spiritual nation. Not even the natural branches may enter if they are not children of the promise found within the New Covenant…. But yet we Israelites will be like the sand of the sea.

In him,

Cielohim

[cielohim]

Have we become conceited in our hearts towards Israel?

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 9: 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children…. 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Romans 9:26
and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.

Paul is explaining a verse in a direct quote of an OT prophecy in Hosea 1:10…

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

But now his Kingdom is from another place… but there is coming a time when his servants are going to fight and we know exactly where that fight is going to take place for “His Kingdom”….what is the name of his nation? Israel is the name of the nation of people God has chosen for himself. He declared that in the OT and it still holds true today. If one is not granted citizenship in the Nation... he or she will be excluded from the Kingdom of God.

Revelation 11:15
[ The Seventh Trumpet ] The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

In him,

Cielohim

[cielohim]

Dougg,

I believe what the word says about the Gog/Magog attack. But I also believe that we being indoctrinated in western fill good theology with in a nation of abundance and prosperity have been deceived in to placing to much emphasis on the flesh….. and teachings that sooth the safety of our flesh.

We know according to the Bible that if every single person in the nation being attacked by G/M did not believe in Christ….Even if that Nation called itself the natural Descendents of Israel and were in the land of their forefathers, defined borders and all….. Then they were not true Israelites…. At least not according to the Bible.

Yes you can trace their natural heritage and decent as the word says… ..but the deeper truth we have been deceived in to overlooking is that they are not TRUE Israelites… At least Not according to scripture:, They being the natural descendents who have forsaken God… and the Lord’s New Covenant in the blood of Christ.

What are the true meanings of these scriptures? .

Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.Luke 22:20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you…..

Who was the new covenant made to? To a Gentile nation? To a Gentile Church? No not in the least... He says... "the new covenant in my blood" "with the House of Israel and with the house of Judah"....

Now if one "an unnatural descendent" is Born of Christ who is God/King/Jew/David/Judah, then what heritage does that person gain? If natural descendents are not considered Israel unless under the new covenenant in blood... then what does that mean?

We are so focused on the flesh and teachings that purposely deny these truths we fall in to misconceptions and a hidden arrogant pridefulness towards Israel..... at least who we think "Israel" is for our own benefit being "the Church"....

Romans 9: 6 “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children…”8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit,…

This earth is real…. The natural of descendants of Israel will be here until the day the Lord comes… as will the land and the nation recognized as Israel….of which G/M can attack….

But we are missing the true meaning of whom Israel is truly comprised of and we have been deceived, our understanding dulled and have become conceited in our views towards Israel... The "True Israel" and our place as gentiles being grafted in to His nation by the Blood of the Covenant made not to Us but as God clearly has told the world.... "To the House of Israel and Judah"... so we should look at what we have learned and humble ourselves to know what he has done for us concerning his Nation.

because there was a time in that place where we were not called sons of the living God...we were shut out, outsiders.... but now in fulfilllment of the prohpecies.... just as Paul teaches through Hosea... Romans 9:26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.

So all Israel will be saved (yet only a remnant) and Israel will be as the sand of the Sea according to scripture,...... How can that be?

In him,

Cielohim

[Douggg]

Hi Cielo,

It is the nation of Israel....true Israel, that Gog/Magog attacks. God obviously defends them.... they are not false Israelites. Why would you think that they are false Israelites, when God Himself defends them?

Sorry Cielo, but unless you are a blood descendant you are not an Israelites. Of course, none of the blood descendants are saved except by Jesus. But thinking because you, as a gentile, are saved.... that doesn't make you an Israelite.

I don't even know why you would want to be one.


Peace,

Doug L.

[Lazarus43]

Hi Cielo,

It is the nation of Israel....true Israel, that Gog/Magog attacks. God obviously defends them.... they are not false Israelites. Why would you think that they are false Israelites, when God Himself defends them?

Sorry Cielo, but unless you are a blood descendant you are not an Israelites. Of course, none of the blood descendants are saved except by Jesus. But thinking because you, as a gentile, are saved.... that doesn't make you an Israelite.

I don't even know why you would want to be one.


Peace,

Doug L.

"Cielohim" is correct. He is correct to agree with the scripture:

Rom 9:6-8 (NASB)
Rom 9:6 But {it is} not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are {descended} from Israel;
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
*Red coloring mine.

Also, this about Jesus Christ coming into the world:

John 1:9-13 (NASB)
John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 1:11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Gog/Magog does not change the scripture.

Cielohim, good to see you posting.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[cielohim]

Dougg,

You stated: Sorry Cielo, but unless you are a blood descendant you are not an Israelites. Of course, none of the blood descendants are saved except by Jesus. But thinking because you, as a gentile, are saved.... that doesn't make you an Israelite. I don't even know why you would want to be one.

Brother, The reason why I posted the scripture concerning the Israelites is because of what you just posted to expose the spirit behind the deception of our current "church" culture especially here in America. We are prideful and have become very conceited in our very teachings in this area. Even to the point of stating things such as you have IE: "I don't even know why you would want to be one"

If we understand the true meaning of being an Israelite then that will be the reason why we must become part of God's nation and be saved. That is why I would want to be an Israelite based soley on what the scripture teaches....

Taking that stance above in your post, we fill justified by what we believe we have learned and think we know about who the True nation of Israel is... That is why I asked:

"What are the true meanings of these scriptures".

You stated: "I don't even know why you would want to be one".

The reason why all of us should understand that we must be "an Israelite" is because if we do not have citizen ship within God's nation of Chosen people... Then we will not inherit his Kingdom...

He has told us... there is only One nation on this earth He has called as a people for himself. That nation has one name. The name of the Nation is Israel.

I Chron 17:“21 And who is like your people Israel—the one nation on earth whose God went out to redeem a people for himself”
OT Prophecy;

I believe the discussion should turn to the scripture iself. And our understand of it's true meaning should be broadened. Even if the meaning of the scripture destroys our current understanding.

In order to see the true meaning of the scripture if we are indeed in search for the truth in it.... you and I may have to unlearn and then relearn.... previous minds sets and attitudes towards Israel.... Having an attitude like many gentile believers who say in their heart... "I don't wish to be part of the nation of Israel".....For whatever motive that attitude is taken... it is wrong. Especially in light of what the scripture teaches about all those who partake in the New Covenant of Blood made to who? "The house of Israel and the house of Judah"

God, each and every day even now is protecting unbelievers.... just because they are natural descendents of Israel and God gives them protection does not mean they know the Lord and are under the blood of the New Covenant... unless the Gog/Mgog attack you are referring to is the one after the 1000 year reign of Christ... then we know that all who are being attacked are the true nation of Israel IE: Under the Blood of the new covenant.….

So Let us turn our discussion to the scripture and dialogue about what it truly is saying OT and NT and then we should decided based upon the Blood of the New Covenant made to the House of Israel.... if we need to be part of Israel to be included in to the Kingdom of the Lord.

In him,

Cielohim

[Lazarus43]

Interesting facts about the modern nation called Israel:
************************************************************
Ethnic groups: Jewish 76.4% (of which Israel-born 67.1%, Europe/America-born 22.6%, Africa-born 5.9%, Asia-born 4.2%), non-Jewish 23.6% (mostly Arab) (2004)

Religions: Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2004)
************************************************************
Source:
The World Factbook, Israel page

Notice the ethnic 23.6% non-Jewish (mostly Arab) and the 16% Muslim religion pecentages of the population living in the modern nation called Israel.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Douggg]

To the Moderators,

IMHO, this thread about replacement theology doesn't even belong in the Prophecy debate area... it is a theological issue and should be elsewhere in another forum....like the General Bible study and debate forum.

Peace,

Doug L.

[Lazarus43]

This thread is not about "replacement theology." In my opinion, it is about how the concept of "Israel" and how that affects the understanding of prophecy. Cielohim would better know what he is talking about, but that is my opinion.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[cielohim]

Have we ever thought about how many scripture we quote pertaining to promises made to Israel made through OT prophecy but yet we apply them to ourselves being the Church. Have we ever thought hmm… The Lord God did not preach these prophecies to gentile nations… He made these promises to Israel??? How then do we apply them to ourselves being the “Church” but yet not want to partake in his Nation? What are the motives behind our stances…. How is that not arrogant?

Hebrews 8:10 6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. 7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Dougg, who is that covenant made with? The house of the Gentile nation or the House of Israel??? He says I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. But before that he state: 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel ... How then do we apply that covenant to ourselves? And in affect rebuke "Israel"? Is that not prideful? Do we not have his laws written on our hearts and minds by his Spirit?

One is not a Jew unless he or she is a Jew inwardly as scripture says:Romans 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Are our hearts not circumcised by the Spirit? But we will reject being "a spiritual Jew" (ironic) if it has anything to do with actually being part of the Nation of Israel???? We indeed have become self induldged. We want all the promises to Israel, we quote scripture apply them to ourselves but none of the burden being the Chosen Nation of God.

Who is he referring to… Natural or Spiritual descendents? Natural or Spiritual people. In what very place are gentiles called sons of the living God. And how can we be sons of the living God without heritage in his nation??? And what is the only nation God has chosen to redeem a people for himself? All of the answer lead back to one place... Israel....

So let’s address the importance of these scriptures for our understanding of the place we have in Israel. If we are not found in his Kingdom... then we have no inheritance in the Kingdom of God when he comes. Remember "Saved" All "Israel will be Saved" saved from what? Saved How...? "Who is All Israel???"

Who was the blood of the New Covenant made to and why?Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
Luke 22:20 "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you…..

Roman 9:6-8 see laz post above…. Not the natural descendents who are the children of the promise….

Paul tells us in Romans 9: 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved… Dougg…. tell me how can that be? How is it if only a small remnant will be saved.... but yet Israelite numbers are like the sand by the sea.... Who are those Isralites that are not the remnant????? The answer is found according to scripture... but it may not be what our self indulgant teachings wish to hear... It is us Dougg, those called from the gentiles to partake in the promises of Israel being grafted in to the nation of God to whom the covenant was made in Blood. The covenant was Not made to "the Gentile nation" yet one would not think by our current beliefs... But the covenant was made to the House of Israel.

Paul explains it himself saying 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea: 26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God….. 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

I do not want you to be ignoant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in….. “All Israel will be saved”

There are many more scriptures teaching these truths..

Throwing all previous teaching aside and taking to mind... doing a study of OT prophecy pertaining to the New Covenant... what you will not find is any New Covenant being directed to any other nation than Israel... especially not a Gentile nation...

So..what is the truth in the scripture about our place in Israel?? If we are indeed in search for truth and are willing to unlearn certain cultural teachings that do not line up with what is actaully written according to scripture.

This is the covenant i will make with the House of Israel.... law on hearts and minds.

This is the Blood of the new covenant poured out for you...

Full number of Gentiles come in.. “All Israel will be saved”

"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Not the natural descendents who are Israel etc…....

In the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God

Don't be ignorant nor conceited.... you have been grafted in

If not all natural descendent are Israel then who is Israel? Is Christ natural or Spiritual.

In him,

Cielohim

[Abiding in His Word]

To the Moderators,

IMHO, this thread about replacement theology doesn't even belong in the Prophecy debate area... it is a theological issue and should be elsewhere in another forum....like the General Bible study and debate forum.

Peace,

Doug L.

Agreed. Thanks, Doug.....I'm moving it now.

[bchandler]

All, Cielohim is not talking abut replacement theology here... he is talking about abiding in the true vine, of being grafted in olive branches.

We, the church, are not a new tree, or a new vine... We have been made part of the one true vine, the one good olive tree...

Scripture is very clear that we are grafted in by faith, and we remain in by bearing good fruit. Jew and Gentile alike.

God is surely no respector of persons, and even under the old covenant a foreigner could convert and become a Jew. When they did so, they were to be treated just as if they were blood kin of Israel.

If under the old covenant there was a way for Gentiles to become Jews... how much more so by faith do we not become decendents of the house of Judah, and there by Israel, when we believe on Jesus, and are converted under the new covenant?

I have to agree with Cielohim... this is an area that the Lord has been speaking to my heart on for 2-3 years...

We ignore the Jewishness of our faith, we do not keep the feasts of the Lord... we don't even keep the passover, when it has just as much meaning to Christians today as it does to Jews.

I think Douggg you have completely missed Cielohim's point.

[cielohim]

Abiding,

Do I not have the opportunity to address the moving of the thread before you just move it? It’s just… Dougg, I agree.. bam.. It’s moved? Wow… Truly is that just and fair? Are these scriptures not prophecy?

"The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Luke 22:20 "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you…..

Hosea 1:10 "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Hosea: "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God…..

Revelation 11:15
[ The Seventh Trumpet ] The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

If most every scripture that should be discussed in this thread is about OT prophecy pertaining to the New Covenant... why was this thread moved?

Abiding, you did not even address the content of scripture in this thread before your moved it….and... did not even ask me about it being moved. Is that just, right or fair?

Dougg,

These scriptures should be addressed. I would love to continue the dialogue with you or others…. And this is not about replacement theology... I have not brought up any of those terms... nor have I brought up any other name of modern terms... I did that for a reason... This is about addressing what the prophecy says and to whom it was written… And if you follow the thread you will see prophecy after prophecy after prophecy that should be discussed in the "prophecy" debate forum should it not?

I though that is what the prophecy debate forum was for????

There are no terms such as, pretrib, replacement theology, posttrib, midtrib, once saved always saved, found written in our Bible... nor written in this thread. Only the discussion of OT prophecy and NT scriptures… just like many other of the threads found in the prophecy debate forum…. This is not a general study..

I posted only Prophecy and scripture and it's meaning should be discussed for the search of truth in the correct forum.

In that light why was this thread moved? And what was the motive behind the request.

Abiding??

In him,

Cielohim

[Lazarus43]

To the Moderators,

IMHO, this thread about replacement theology doesn't even belong in the Prophecy debate area... it is a theological issue and should be elsewhere in another forum....like the General Bible study and debate forum.

Peace,

Doug L.

I do not know who invented the term "replacement theology." I think what I believe was expressed in the topic Remnant Theology. Again, I cannot speak for Cielohim.

Thousands of Jews were the first members of what has come to be called the Church. They continued in the faith of Abraham and his faithful decendents.

Using the metaphor of the spiritual tree, just as some of Abraham's decendents were not faithful and were cut off from the promises of salvation over the years, some of the branches on the tree of the faithful were broken off by God because they did not believe in Jesus as the Christ. They were no longer spiritual Israel.

These branches could be grafted back only spiritually through trust in Jesus Christ to rejoin Israel's spiritual tree. It is Israel's spiritual tree to which gentiles were then grafted as they believed in Jesus Christ as the Annointed Savior, not only of the Jews, but of all who would come to believe in the world. Faithful gentiles were only added to faithful Jews to form the church. There is no such thing as the "ethnic salvation" taught by some.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[bchandler]

I think maybe you are reading to much into the move cielohim... it is still in a debate forum... just not the prophecy debate... though I do agree you posted a great deal regarding prophecy.

Again, Cielohim, I agree with you and think you make important points in your posts.. I said it before.. and I'll say it again:

One God, One Law, One Body, One salvation... for Jew and Gentile alike...

God is no respector of persons. All who believe are grafted into Jesus, who is of the line of David, of the House of Judah, of the house of Israel. We are all adopted sons. Scripture clearly tells us this.. being adopted into a Jewish family and a Jewish faith... we do ourselves great disservice to ignore the Jewishness of our faith. IMO

[bchandler]

BTW Lazarus... replacement theology teaches that God is done wit Israel, that they have been permanently rejected, and that the church of Jesus Christ has replaced Israel. They also teach that Jews are "tainted" by this blood debt of Christ, and that they are people of no value and can not be redeemed.

That is obviously NOT even close to what Cielohim is talking about here. What he IS saying is that gentile believers have been grafted INTO Israel... that we have become PART of Israel and joint-heirs through Jesus of the promises made to Israel.

He never said Jews were rejected... but the word tells us plainly that the faithless natural branches WILL be(were?) cut off.

In that sense... the Body of Christ IS Israel, and has "replaced" Israel... but that does not mean the natural branches (Jews) can not or will not be grafted back in when they believe... again the word is very clear regarding what happens to the natural branches... either they are cut off and burned for unbelief or they are grafted back in when they believe.


Replacement theology is and was used by new agers/nazis and racists of all stripes to justify anti-semitism. It is a very evil doctrine IMO. These are the people who hate jews and call them Christ killers... etc...

When the truth of the matter is that every last one of us are responsible for his death.

Edited for clarification and better information.

[benny]

Abiding,

Do I not have the opportunity to address the moving of the thread before you just move it? It’s just… Dougg, I agree.. bam.. It’s moved? Wow… Truly is that just and fair? Are these scriptures not prophecy?

"The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Luke 22:20 "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you…..

Hosea 1:10 "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Hosea: "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God…..

Revelation 11:15
[ The Seventh Trumpet ] The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

If most every scripture that should be discussed in this thread is about OT prophecy pertaining to the New Covenant... why was this thread moved?

Abiding, you did not even address the content of scripture in this thread before your moved it….and... did not even ask me about it being moved. Is that just, right or fair?

Dougg,

These scriptures should be addressed. I would love to continue the dialogue with you or others…. And this is not about replacement theology... I have not brought up any of those terms... nor have I brought up any other name of modern terms... I did that for a reason... This is about addressing what the prophecy says and to whom it was written… And if you follow the thread you will see prophecy after prophecy after prophecy that should be discussed in the "prophecy" debate forum should it not?

I though that is what the prophecy debate forum was for????

There are no terms such as, pretrib, replacement theology, posttrib, midtrib, once saved always saved, found written in our Bible... nor written in this thread. Only the discussion of OT prophecy and NT scriptures… just like many other of the threads found in the prophecy debate forum…. This is not a general study..

I posted only Prophecy and scripture and it's meaning should be discussed for the search of truth in the correct forum.

In that light why was this thread moved? And what was the motive behind the request.

Abiding??

In him,

Cielohim

I agree with cielohim.

And I also think understanding who is the true Israel is also paramount to understanding all the end days prophecies for "Israel".

And to say that "the armies of "gog and magog" coming against Israel has something to do with the battle of armageddon is a stretch. The only place I find those terms gog and magog in Revelations is a battle that takes place after the 1000 year reign of Christ.

The way I see it the battle of armageddon is not about coming against "Israel" per se. But is a war waged against Jesus and the saints, or spiritual "Israel".

[cielohim]

Dougg,

I have to agree with bchandler, the prophecy and scripture that is posted has not even been discussed.

You just made a request that it be moved. You labeled it "Replacement Theology" but if you truly read the prophecy and scriptures you will see OT prophecy has absolutely nothing to do with a term called "Replacement Theology..." That term did not even enter my mind.

I was the author of the thread... and truthfully "Replacement Theology" was not even in my heart when I was posting those prophecies…. Finding the true meaning of them was on my heart, along with what should be a fruitful discussion of the prophecies we all love to apply to ourselves.

That you would label this thread in such terms actually did surprise me.

And furthermore the meanings of those prophecies have not even been commented on by you???

So how then does a moderator just agree with a blanket statement that you have made and move the thread without you even addressing the prophecy within the thread. I believe that was wrong and may have been done with a motive.

I am still trying to figure out why, and the motive behind that request.

Was it to suppress the debate and exposure of these prophecies in the correct forum? I don't know.

As I said before. I would love to continue the discussion about the prophecy in scripture without any preconceived notions as to what its meaning. So we can just address the scripture.

We should address what the prophecy says and debate what the Lord God intended for the meaning to be of those scriptures.

We all know we apply those prophecies to ourselves... but do we truly understand what they mean... can we? IE: This is the Blood of the New Covenant....

The Covenant was made to who? You did not address one of the first prophecies I posted...... but yet we all apply this scripture blanketly (made up word) to ourselves.

"Luke 22:20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you….."

Is that scripture not the direct fulfillment of this prophecy

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.....This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Again, if we are discussing these prophecies.... how then are they possibly related to replacement theology?.... Only if you make them... but then that would be taking the emphasis off of discussing the scripture itself and placing the emphasis on man made terms.... That is not the purpose of this thread. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the direct meaning of prophecy and how they apply to those under the New Covenant.

Those prophecies say what they say.... All I have done is rewritten them for discussion. We always quote Jesus Ie: "This is my blood of the New Covenant", so why not look at the words of the Same Spirit in Jesus who gave the prophecy in the OT…. the very words that Jesus fulfilled.

The problem is that many of our new western teachings and our Christian culture, especially in the land of plenty will not allow us to even discuss what the prophecy means... because the real meanings just may go against what a lot of our current teachings suggest... that is just another sign of an apostate church.

In him,

Cielohim

[Lazarus43]

BTW Lazarus... replacement theology teaches that God is done wit Israel, that they have been permanently rejected, and that the church of Jesus Christ has replaced Israel. They also teach that Jews are "tainted" by this blood debt of Christ, and that they are people of no value and can not be redeemed...

I am aware of how dispensational teachings define "replacement theology" and use it to try to silence debates like this one. I just have not yet been able to discover who invented and first used the term.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[bchandler]

I suspect you may find the first uses of such terms were from the doctrines of the RCC. This doctrine was used to justify persecution of Jews and seizure of Jewish assets by the RCC.

These teachings were further refined (into arianism) and expounded by new agers(nazis) such as Alice Anne Bailey, and their protogees such as Hitler.

Sorry if i miunderstood your statement.

Anyway... can we get this thread back on track and discuss the origonal post Cielohim made in good faith?

[mommyjen]

I agree that this is not replacement theology but that this is still a good place to debate it although I am not sure what is needing to be debated about. The only problem with pre-tribbers is that I beieve based upon the church and Israel being one unit. It shoots holes in their rapture theory because they completely separate out the church from Israel. Am I wrong or maybe I don't understand pre-trib enough.

[bchandler]

No, I think you make an important point mommyjen. Pre-trib almost requires this kind of seperation between jew and gentile.

Some go so far as to say that after the rapture the new covenant is completed and that salvation for Israel is once again under the old covenant... which IMO seems rather an insult to Jesus!!

I suspect that pre-trib eschatology played a very large role in the adoption of replacement theology in many western churches, because there was a need to explain the events of revelation and replacement "solved" some of their problems.

When you look at the prophecies in light of the context of scripture where we are clearly taught that we have been grafted in, adopted, as sons of God through Jesus. Which clearly means that we have not only been adopted into God's family, but into Abraham's family, via Israel, via Judah, via David, via Jesus... You can not help but see the problems that causes with pre-trib eschatology.

But... I think Cielohim wanted to discuss the Jewish roots of our faith and why we (the church) seem to disregard, discard, or treat casually the natural bretheren of Christ, and our faith's roots in the old covenant and Judaism.

[Lazarus43]

There are not two different paths of salvation, one for the Jew, and one for the gentiles, beginning at the unfaithful Jewish branches' rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. That is a "separation theology" which has resulted in some even refusing to present the gospel to Jews. It is basic to dispensationalism and pre-trib rapture reasoning.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[cielohim]

The thread was moved to this forum that is tilted discussion and debate not related to prophecy...????????????

The person who suggest it be moved has not even commented on the prophecy that has been posted....and gave this thread His own Label…

By doing that he has effectively silenced the discussion of what the prophecy and scripture actually says... That was not the purpose of this thread.

I am requesting the thread be moved back to the prophecy debate forum.

This thread is not supposed to be about any kind of “theology”, nor pretrib, nor post trib...., nor prewrath, but a discussion of prophecy.

Here are some of the prophecies that should be discussed. Again I am making a request..... That this thread be moved back to the prophecy debate forum where it should be. Will a Mod look at these prophecies to be discussed and make the appropriate move.

If not could I at least be given the courtesy of an explanation of how these proepheies that are being discussed are a “Discussion Not related to prophecy” as this forum is titled?

I am about to post the prophecy for discussion to get the thread back on Track. This is not a discussion of any "theology" Just what the prophecy says..... Let us discuss the words of the prophecies. We can begin with these:

Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah..…10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Luke 22:20 "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you…..

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved…

Hosea: 26 and, "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God…..

Bchandler is correct:

But... I think Cielohim wanted to discuss the Jewish roots of our faith and why we (the church) seem to disregard, discard, or treat casually the natural bretheren of Christ, and our faith's roots in the old covenant and Judaism.

If we are able to actually discuss what the prophecies and scripture actually say... It may shed light on many learned deceptions as to who we are in Christ and how we view Israel. Remember I did not even bring up any terms other than the ones found written within the word itself.


In him,

Cielohim

[bchandler]

Cielohim,

I understand your desired discussion topic... but because it is so intricately linked with other beliefs it will (i susspect) be difficult to keep it on track and out of those other areas.

I think you have your work cut out for you...

But I too would enjoy discussing this. I want to know as an adopted son... what my new family is like, and what ordinances that they kept of old that are still valid and should be kept today and forever, versus which are completely finished and no longer to be practiced.

These portions of our heritage by faith, I think we ignore at great cost.

I believe in one prophecy it even states that 10 men will take hold of one Jewish man to beg him to teach them the ordinaces of God. But I can't recall where it is off hand.

[bchandler]

Found it I think:

Zec 8:19 So says Jehovah of Hosts: The fast of the fourth month, and the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth, shall become for joy and gladness and cheerful feasts to the house of Judah. Therefore, love truth and peace.
Zec 8:20 So says Jehovah of Hosts: There shall yet come peoples, and those living in many cities.
Zec 8:21 And those living in one shall go to another, saying, Let us go at once to seek the favor of the face of Jehovah, and to seek Jehovah of Hosts; I will go also.
Zec 8:22 And many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek Jehovah of Hosts in Jerusalem, and to seek the favor of the face of Jehovah.
Zec 8:23 So says Jehovah of Hosts: In those days ten men out of all languages of the nations shall take hold, and will seize the skirt of a man, a Jew, saying, Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.

[Lazarus43]

I do not think this topic can be discussed without relating it to prophecy.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[bchandler]

agreed, and i wasnt suggesting otherwise... just suggesting that it will be difficult to keep other prophecy and theological debates out of this topic.

In my previous post... isn't this a prophecy, and it does say that men will lay hold of the garments of a Jew, and beg to go with him to seek favor of God.

So it hardly seems that the feasts are finished or that all who believe will fail to come up to jerusalem for the feast days.

It also appears that if the feast days are to be kept.. shouldn't we be keeping them now? Shouldn't we be seeking out Jewish believers to teach us to observe the ordinances God told us were eternal?

Not all of the Jewish law was declared as forever by God, but certain things were to be done forever. Certain feasts and ordinances were to be kept forever.

Shouldn't we as grafted in Israelites be diligently seeking out these things and seeking to keep the eternal ordinances? Knowing that the non-eternal parts of the law... the ordinances which were against us... were nailed to the cross of Christ!! And that those parts of the law are fulfilled and we are not in bondage to it!!

[benny]

I believe in one prophecy it even states that 10 men will take hold of one Jewish man to beg him to teach them the ordinaces of God. But I can't recall where it is off hand.

Was it talking about a "Jewish man" or a true Israelite whether jew or gentile?

If your going to learn the ordinances of God you read the scriptures with an open heart to God. you will then understand what Paul was talking about when he rebuked the Jews for teaching the Roman and Greeks about Jewish ordanances (commandments of men) and circumcism. There are many things that Jews are taught through their "sages" or rabbi's that are in direct conflict with GOD'S Ten Commandments.

The bible says no man need teach you, because God will do it through the Holy Ghost IF YOU WILL LISTEN.

[bchandler]

benny, if you will look at what I wrote... I clearly distinguished between the ordinances that were declared eternal by God himself, and the rest of the law.

Neither did I say we should be taught but by the holy spirit... I am just looking to the word of God...

Note that I found and posted the scripture which I was thinking of... and it does not say that they seek to be taight... only to go to jerusalem with them.

It does specifically say... a jew... but the word tells us clearly that a jew is one inwardly by faith and by the spirit... not outwardly... I have no idea if we as Christians will ever be known as Jews... I suspect after Israel returns to God and acknowledges Jesus, we might just be known as Jews... just as converts under the old covenant were.

But if I follow your logic to it's conclusion then we don't need pastors or sunday school teachers or even churches for that matter... since we are only to be taught by the Holy Spirit.

Don't you think the Holy Spirit uses other believers to witness to and teach us?

BTW, the words translated "we will go with you" could just as easily be translated... "we will be led by(by reason of) you".

[Douggg]

Dougg,

I have to agree with bchandler, the prophecy and scripture that is posted has not even been discussed.

come now, brother Cielo, you had one vague sentence regarding bible prophecy in your opening post....here it is.... And also influences how Israel is veiwed in end time prophecy.

But when I tried to get you to discuss Israel in a specific prophetic discussion.... asking you to name of the country that Gog/Magog attacked..... and does God defend that country...

well, the word "Israel" could not depart your lips. You AVOIDED discussing Israel in prophectic terms, but you continued in your theological discussion that the Jews have been replaced by the Church as true Israelites.....

If that is what you believe...that you are a true Israelite, fine....
but it is a theological issue not a prophecy issue.

I am now going back to the prophecy debate area.

Peace,

Doug L.

[Douggg]

I see this thread returned....

Cielo, who is living in Israel, right now? The Jews right. Are they predominately Christians? No.

When Gog/Magog attacks - what is the name of the PEOPLE who they attack?

The ENITRE world knows them as the Israelies. Does God defend the true Israelites - the Israelies or not?

You are not an Israelite.....

Peace,

Doug L.

[cielohim]

Dougg,

See post #9 I did address Gog/Mgog. But you have yet to comment on the prophecy in scripture that was posted. When you posted your question. I had already written my following post... but again if you scroll to my post #9 I did infact address your question about God/Mgog.

Let's get on track by discussing the meaning of these prophecies and search for other scripture that may clearly explain what they truly mean:

If there are other prophecies and scripture you or anybody else wants to add. It may lead to a fruitful discussion.

Hosea 1:10 "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

I believe some good questions to discuss are:

1. Who are the number of Israelites that are like the sand?
2. Who are those who were called "not my people" then become "sons of the living God" and How do they become sons of the Living God?
3. What place is "the very place" in that scripture that the Lord is referring to?
4. Are those prophecies related and How are they fulfilled?

There are many motives or beliefs about these scriptures that may cause them to be misunderstood or their true meaning rejected all together. I believe if we search for the truth of them and understand what they mean. The truth may influence other misconceptions in other areas of understanding prophecy.

In him,

Cielohim

[cielohim]

Dougg,

Let's have this discussion based on the prophecy in scripture.

There are OT and NT prophecy and scriptures that define who a true Israelite is. That is why I said our current Christian culture may be blinding us to the truths about what scripture says concerning exactly who the Israelites are.

Back to scripture: There was a prophecy made to Abraham it says:

Gen 18:10 Then the LORD [c] said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son."…. 14 Is anything too hard for the LORD ? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son."

Time went Israel became a nation then prophecy about David was Given and then Lord stated in prophecy:

Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Christ declared the fulfillment of the new covenant. He says, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you…

Which brings us to current teachings about who Israel is according to scripture. Our focus should not be on the flesh.

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, [b]it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

Let us discuss these points in prophecy… if we are told “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned” and in other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children… then doesn’t that go against a fleshly picture of Israel? So if the natural children are not Israel then who is?..... According to scripture? See some of the other prophecies that have been posted.

Let’s discuss the meaning of those prophecy in scripture.

Again refer to my post #9. I am in total agreement that there are natural descendents in a Land called Israel today…And those descendents can be attacked…. And God can protect, even unbelievers (??you wouldn't say??)

A lot of us received mercy and protection while in our unbelief… or else we too would be in Hell… but there is more to this than just that perspective. According to scripture if none of them believe in Christ then they are not going to inherit that land. And even now they are not the true Nation of Israel… because to be a child of the promise is to be found in the Blood of the New Covenant... another prophecy we should discuss.

Just because God provides protection does not change the above mentioned truths in scripture.

In him,

Cielohim

[Lazarus43]

I see this thread returned....

Cielo, who is living in Israel, right now? The Jews right. Are they predominately Christians? No.

When Gog/Magog attacks - what is the name of the PEOPLE who they attack?

The ENITRE world knows them as the Israelies. Does God defend the true Israelites - the Israelies or not?

You are not an Israelite.....

Peace,

Doug L.

From an earlier post about who lives in the modern nation called Israel...interesting facts (not opinions) about the modern nation called Israel:
************************************************************
Ethnic groups: Jewish 76.4% (of which Israel-born 67.1%, Europe/America-born 22.6%, Africa-born 5.9%, Asia-born 4.2%), non-Jewish 23.6% (mostly Arab) (2004)

Religions: Jewish 76.4%, Muslim 16%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2004)
************************************************************
Source:
The World Factbook, Israel page

Notice the ethnic 23.6% non-Jewish (mostly Arab) and the 16% Muslim religion pecentages of the population living in the modern nation called Israel.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Douggg]

Ceilo, do you believe that you personally are a "true Israelite" based on being a Christian?

Peace,

Doug L.

[Seeker]

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?


Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Have at it...lol...I hate to post the full chapter but it really spells it out clearly.

Peace,
Seeker

[Lazarus43]

Have at it...lol...I hate to post the full chapter but it really spells it out clearly.

Peace,
Seeker

To best understand Romans 11 without taking it out of its context start reading at least as far back as the beginning of Romans 9 and continue through the end of Romans 11.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Douggg]

1. Who are the number of Israelites that are like the sand?

In Hosea 1, those are the Israelites of the ten northern tribes.

2. Who are those who were called "not my people" then become "sons of the living God" and How do they become sons of the Living God?

Those are the northern 10 tribes, who worshipped idols, who went into Assyrian captivity. A remnant survived the Assyrian captivity, who's blood descendants will later become Christians....sons of he Living God.

3. What place is "the very place" in that scripture that the Lord is referring to?

Ezkiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity * of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

The whole house of Israel is the combination of Judah, the southern 2 tribes, and Israel, the northern 10 tribes.

4. Are those prophecies related and How are they fulfilled?

When Israel became a total nation again, like it was in the days before the split into the two kingdoms, fulfilled in May 1948. Ezekiel 39:29 God will pour out his spirit upon them, concurrent with the Magog/Gog attack, the result will be that they have a zeal for God and will rebuild the temple and restart animal sacrifices. However, in that zeal, they will err and will be deceived for a short period of time, thinking that the AC is their messiah, the covenant with death and hell, that God will not let stand. And when the AC reveals himself as an imposter - the sowing of the seed by the preaching of the two witnesses will take hold - and all those descendants of the 12 tribes will become Christians - making them sons of God.

Those blood descendants of the northern 10 tribes and the southern 2 tribes, as God has called them back in the last days as a unified nation, now living in Israel are the true Israelites.


Peace,

Doug L.

[Lazarus43]

Without going through all of Romans 9-11, here is my understanding of who makes up "all Israel".

We need to look at a little context to understand "all Israel".

Rom 9:6 But {it is} not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are {descended} from Israel;
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

("All Israel" does not include those who are only children by flesh.)

Rom 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;

According to Scripture, "IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED"

Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in {the passage about} Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3 "Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE."
Rom 11:4 But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to {God's} gracious choice.

(Again, a faithful remnant, "at the present time" when Romans 11:5 was written, is not rejected by God.)

Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same {Lord} is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

(To the saved remnant Jews are added those saved who were never Jews. All who have been saved are now in the same group. There is no distinction. They are "all Israel," by faith and not by flesh.)

Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

(The same mercy is available and needed by Jews, who in disobedience once rejected Christ, and Gentiles.)

Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural {branches} be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

*All Scripture quotes are from the NASB.
*All red coloring is mine.

No element of an order in time is involved. It does not say all Israel will be saved after "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." As long as Gentiles are being saved there can also be some saved out of "partially hardened Israel."

According to Romans 11:23, "if they do not continue in their unbelief" some will continue to be saved by faith and added to the number of saved by faith Gentiles "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Though the gospel was first presented to the Jews and then to the Gentiles, some from both groups are now being saved, and "so" (in this way), "all Israel will be saved" by faith and not by flesh. God has been saving both Jews and Grentiles who "did not continue in their unbelief." The method will continue to be the same "until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

It makes sense to me.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[cielohim]

Dougg,

In your next post would you mind addressing some of the scriptures? I believe a dialogue as to what they are saying will be very revealing and fruitful for our understanding.

Does one have to accept the Blood of the New Covenant to become a Christian? If yes....We should look at the prophecy the Lord God spoke and to whom he spoke for clarity about our place as "Christians" in the mix of things.

What does it mean to be “Christian” according to scripture? In our church culture we accept Jesus hear about his blood, and poof we are the “Church of believers”…. We apply the promises of OT prophecy to ourselves without even really looking at who the promises were made to??? That’s just part of the day we live in. Can we find any OT prophecy speaking about the New Covenant directed to any other nation than Israel? But yet we are happy to claim all the promises for ourselves as the "Church"??? How is that? Promises made to Israel.... we apply to the Church?

We as “Christians” always talk about the blood of the New Covenant. According to prophecy Here is how the Lord God stated his New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Where does that scripture mention anything about a Gentile nation??
Then the Lord says… to the house of Israel

“ 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people........For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."… ... How does he wipe their sins away???

“All Israel will be saved” 27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

In fulfillment of the words his Spirit of prophecy spoke in the OT....Christ says, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you…

Seeker posted more scripture concerning Faith, and being grafted in. See Romans 11

Now when the scripture says, “All Israel will be saved” when the full number of Gentiles have come in. Who is “All Israel” and what does being “Saved” mean? And How is one Saved? Our common answer is of course “by the Blood of Jesus”… which is true… We have songs, hymns, chants.. “Nothin but the blood of Jesus” but should we not slow down and realize the prophecy behind the Blood of the New Covenant….

That Blood that saves….. is the Blood of a Covenant made to who? Israel… By prophecy, The Covenant is made to and with the House of Israel… That truth we reject in part because of our current teachings and selfish motives… If we are willing to accept the truthful answer to the question above then you have your answer to the question you asked.

If one truly believes in the Lord, by default they have accepted the blood of the New Covenant made only to those who are called…. So all Israel will be saved. And we know by scripture.

1 Chron 17:21 “Israel—the one nation on earth whose God went out to redeem a people for himself”

Does being a “Christian” mean accepting the Blood of the New Covenant made to the nation of Israel? Is there any other Covenant, which we can be saved by? How then is “All Israel Saved”??? Does being Saved (by definition) make you or I part of the “Church” or “Christian”???? For one to be saved is it true one must be found under the blood of the new Covenant made to the nation of Israel?

According to scripture and what we know about prophecy that has been posted, Are the natural descendents the children of the promise or those who accept the Blood of the New Covenant made to the House of Israel?

In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

According to prophecy and scripture Does being under the blood of the New Covenant made to the House of Israel make you Christian?

Lastly, if the Inheritance is eternal, should the citizens of the Kingdom also be eternal? And according to scripture does being Saved mean being grafted in to Israel?

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance

In him,

Cielohim

[NLN]

When John was shown “the Bride, the wife of the Lamb” (Rev. 21:9), he saw a city whose gates were the names of the twelve tribes of Israel (Rev. 21:12). It is not a city with a single gate named “Judah,” nor was it a city with three names on its gates: Judah, Benjamin, and Levi. The city was meant to portray all the tribes in a unified nation, the United House of Israel.

Furthermore, verse 27 indicates that this city includes only believers in Jesus Christ,

27 and nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

If we apply this to the theme of the great remarriage between Jesus Christ and Israel prophesied in Hosea and other places, we see that the regathering of Israel into God’s house comes after the marriage itself. The remarriage is legally necessary before God ends Israel’s dispersion and brings her back into His house.

This is not to say that the Bride is composed exclusively of natural Israelites, as some have claimed. Israel’s pedigree was not a factor when Jesus Christ divorced her in 721 B.C., nor will it be a factor in her salvation. Neither does this exclusive marriage with Israel as a nation exclude those who are not natural Israelites. Isaiah 56 prophesies,

6 Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, to minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant; 7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples. 8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares, “Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered.”

Isaiah was referring to Solomon’s prayer at the dedication of the temple. In 1 Kings 8:41-43 he prayed,

41 Also concerning the foreigner who is not of Thy people Israel, when he comes from a far country for Thy name’s sake 42 (for they will hear of Thy great name and Thy mighty hand, and of Thine outstretched arm); when he comes and prays toward this house, 43 hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place, and do according to all which the foreigner calls to Thee, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Thy name, to fear Thee, as do Thy people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I have built is called by Thy name.

And so it is evident that although Israel was a chosen vessel to bring the Gospel and the knowledge of God to the rest of the world, they were not the only ones to be saved. In fact, their job was to bring the Good News of Salvation to the rest of the world, so that all nations might receive the blessings of Abraham. In that way the promise to Abraham could be fulfilled, saying, “in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Gen. 12:3; Acts 3:25).

Thus, Israel as a nation is composed of people of all races and nationalities who have transferred their citizenship to the Kingdom of God. To be specific, every Christian believer by definition is a “Jew,” and every true “Jew” who continues on into full Sonship is an Israelite. Keep in mind that there are no more natural Israelites in the world. There are only ex-Israelites of the dispersion. Many people today have ancestors that used to be Israelites, but that does not make them Israelites in the sight of God today. Their Israelite status ended with the great divorce. The only way to regain such a title is through coming into Sonship, which is attaining the Birthright of Joseph. This is done in the same way, equally and impartially, regardless of a person’s genealogical heritage.

To become part of the Bride of Christ, one must become an Israelite. God will only marry a nation composed of Israelite citizens. Yet citizenship is a legal issue, not a genealogical issue. Citizenship is open to all people, but they must become citizens of Israel to be married to Him. Hence, the Bride is exclusive nationally speaking, but inclusive of all individuals who meet the legal requirements of citizenship.

[cielohim]

Dougg, and all

Please pray for my family.... I must travel this weekend, my Grandfather passed away... He was a believer…..

If we look at those prophecies in the context that Paul spoke we might arrive at a different conclusion than you have suggested.

You stated: those are the Israelites of the ten northern tribes. Referring to the number of Israelites being like the sand of the sea.

IE:27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

You stated: Those are the northern 10 tribes, who worshipped idols, who went into Assyrian captivity. A remnant survived the Assyrian captivity, who's blood descendants will later become Christians....sons of he Living God…

That statement was referring to those who will become sons of the living God IE: "It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.

According to this scripture might Paul be applying those prophecies to us as Gentiles???

Romans 9:24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.

At the beginning of Romans 9 he states:

For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."[b] 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

Dougg, thank you for addressing some of those scriptures. I would love to continue the dialogue after this weekend.

In him,

Cielohim

[Loop]

OK I'm not usually on this board in debates, but as someone who was not raised with the same belief's most of you were, I am coming in with a totally different outlook in most of the scriptures you are posting.

Cielo

So if the natural children are not Israel then who is?...

Gen. 48:5
And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
6. And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance.

I was taught that Israel (Jacob) put his name Israel onto Joseph's two son's Ephraim and Manasseh (adopted) thereby they are Israel.
That Joseph was to be a "fruitful bough", even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall: Gen. 49:22

Joseph's son's were gentile from a gentile mother, so most of Israel is gentile. One of the biggest Israelite nations is America , which was founded on Christian belief's,, Ever wonder why America is the "Great Satan" while the state of Israel is the Little Satan, maybe its not just the size of the States? Why are we so hated?

And no I don't go to the Church that I was raised in, but at times I still wonder how much of what I was taught was true...

Cielo I can deffinately see what you are saying, I have learned a lot from this board and from the different people on here, these debates are deffinately interesting...

[Bob the Quiet]

Loop, Ephraim and Manasseh were only two of the twelve tribes and IIRC they certainly weren't the largest, and so it is incorrect to say that 'most of Israel was Gentile'. In fact, I beleve Manasseh was considered a 'half-tribe'. I don't see any Biblical or even historical basis for saying that America is descended from those two tribes. Such is pure conjecture with no basis in fact.

Now, I know that this is simply what you were taught in the church in which you were raised. However, there are all sorts of churches out there spreading wrong doctrine, wether knowingly or unknowingly and so we must be careful who we listen to.

[BrazilianMommy]

I am sorry about your Grandfather. I pray for comfort to your family and to remind you that, knowing he is a believer, you will meet again.

[bchandler]

Um Joseph's sons had am Israelite father... that makes them Israelites.. not gentiles. I know today they recon heritage by the mother's bloodline... but in those days it was by the father's, and IMO it should be either.

If you look at the old covenant laws for conversion, when the convert came up out of the Mikva (ritual bath... aka baptism) they were considered to be a Jew... just as if they had been born one. They had been baptised INTO Israel... Just as we are baptised INTO Christ, and via Christ INTO Israel.

To say that we are not a part of Israel as believers in Christ Jesus, is to deny the precepts of both old testament law, and new testament grace, and the word of God as expressed by his servants and the apostles.

IMO

[Loop]

Bob the Quite, as I said I don't go to that church now but I do still have some lingering doubts, as Cielohim said you have to unlearn sometimes anyways I think it was Cielohim said that.
I just find it hard sometimes to know what to "unlearn".
I do know that Josephs two sons were not the only two tribes of Israel and that they were only half gentile . But I also know that in Gen.48:16-19 that while Manasseh was to become "a" great nation, that Ephraim was to become a "multitude" of nations.
Gen.49:22-25 namely -25 where it talks of blessings of the womb, which means children, read all it says about Joseph being a fruitful bough; whose branchs run over the wall; its not literally talking about tree branchs.
And I'm not trying to spread the wrong doctrine, was just explaining where I am coming from in what I was taught.... where can you show me this little part of what I was taught is not true, using the bible.
As Israel was the first to be taken into captivity and then Judah.
And yes it takes showing me in the bible for me to believe, since I was raised in the church , that I was raised in, like I said it is sometimes hard to unlearn.