Hi, I'm an Athiest

[Aon]

Convince me that Christianity is right.

[AndCanItBe]

Aon!

[Rogerakk]

Do you own a car ?

[Aon]

Do you own a car ?

Yes.

[Salty Skipper]

Aon
to the board!

[crmann]

Greeting, Aon.....

Hi, I'm an Athiest
Convince me that Christianity is right.

How about you convincing me that it is false?

Aon, I am just funning with you. If you will give me a little time, I will see if I can present a proof for you.

I love you in the name of Christ,

An old timer, whose name is Cleveland.

I won't be too long.

[Rogerakk]

Ok, when you look at your car, you see how everything works together, the wipers for rain, the lights for dark, etc...you believe that it was made by someone, a manufacturer right? that it wasnt just "by chance" made by nothing...... Think about how advanced how they human body is made, which something like the human brain, no computer can duplicate, etc..

Hence, you know... "By Human Logic" you are intelligent correct?

That there MUST be a manufacturer...... GOD

Do you see where I'm going with this?

[carchaser]

Convince me that Christianity is right.

Welcome Aon!

God doesn't beleive in athiests.

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

"Since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." Romans 2:15

This means you inherently know right from wrong. You know its wrong to lie, blasphemy, hate, lust, covet,...etc

Con science means with knowledge

This disproves the case for atheism because your conscience bears witness to God's laws.

You must first answer some questions of yourself.

Which of the Ten Commandments have you broken?

Ever lied?
Ever stolen?
Ever blasphemed?
Ever lusted/committed adultery
Ever hated someone/murdered anyone?

27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:27-28

15 "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15

10 "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

27 "And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment." Hebrews 9:27

Based on this do you think you will go to heaven knowing you've broken God's commandments?

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

Sin and hell are married unless repentance proclaims divorce.
Just say a prayer in your own words and admit to Jesus that your a sinner just like everyone else that if you died right now you would go to hell. Confess with you mouth Jesus is Lord and that he died for your sins so you wouldn't have to go to hell. Believe that He will save you.

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6

15"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" Mark 1:15

8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. Matthew 3:8

The dictionary defines repentance as:

re·pent·ance /rɪˈpɛntns, -ˈpɛntəns/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-pen-tns, -pen-tuhns] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. deep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin, wrongdoing, or the like.
2. regret for any past action.

Read the Holy Bible. Be a VERB of the Holy Bible. OBEY. You can never go wrong.

This is why Christiany is the only right way. We don't practice religion. We practice righteousness according to the Word of God.

[water]

Convince me that Christianity is right.

It would be easier to begin such a discussion if you gave us an idea of what would constitute proof to you that God exists.

Perhaps there is nothing in the world, in all of history, that any person could offer to meet your criteria.

We will save a lot of time if we know from the begning what you are going to accept or reject as proof that Christianity is *the* truth. If you are not sure, some general direction would be helpful, such as are you more interested in what science can offer, or do changed lives mean anything to you, etc.

Let us know.

Edit: Also, I forgot to mention that you ought to really define your idea of atheism. For example, some people like the terms *weak atheism* and *strong atheism*, meaning that some are not sure that God does not exist and others are certain God does not exist, respectively.

Do you *believe* God does not exist? You obviously can't know he does not exist.

[grumpy]

Well, I am definitely not well versed in the bible but I will share a few thoughts.

1.) What if Atheism is right and there is no God?
Well if you choose to believe in God then you will lead a life of not harming anyone and will have a positive benefit to those around you, which by the way is personally rewarding.
If you don't believe in God, then what's to stop you from harming others and become the decay of society. I mean who do you really answer to, another man? Why?

2.) What if Atheism is incorrect and God does exist?
Well if you choose to believe, then there will be great rewards for living a life that doesn't harm others and has a positive effect on others.
If you don't believe, then you'll spend an eternity in hell.

I'd say reason enough to give thought to the existance of GOD, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

Now there's a lot of reason to believe that something happens to us after we die, that perhaps it is not the end. For example, my wife has been an ICU nurse for more than a decade and has seen many people die. Do you know that many people, of all types and religions, tend to see dead relatives shortly before they die? In fact, the nurses will tell you that if a patient converses with a dead relative that more than likely they will lose that patient. I encourage you to talk to ICU nurses where they see a lot of deaths and let them tell you if they see stuff like this or just what they do see happen. Talk to anyone who's encountered the white light story, get their thoughts. How many people in recorded history have claimed to see ghosts? It's enormous, I bet you personally know of someone that you even trust their judgement. For some they see pets or past relatives, etc... There are countless stories of paranormal encounters. Have you put a pet to sleep or seen someone die personally? It's like the light in there eye goes away, it's not like they suddenly are dead. So perhaps when we die, our souls don't.

Ask any devil worshipper if there really is a devil, they will probably scare you with the strength of their stories. And yes, the devil does believe in God.

What about history? The belief in the existance of God goes back to the beginning of time and has never been stamped out. Some cultures believe so strongly that you would be put to death to suggest God doesn't exist. There's Jesus, both Jews and Muslims acknowledge Jesus' existance and neither believe in him. They can't stamp him out of history, no one can. I mean he was put to death publicly, if that happened to a normal man why would anyone believe in him - unless people really did see him alive after the fact.

The Bible. Though I am not the right one to show all the examples, everything the bible has said will happen has happened with extreme accuracy. With so much detail that it cannot be brushed off as chance. Even those who say Jesus was not the Messiah will tell you that his teachings were dead on. Laws are built upon the word of God to keep civility.

Science, yes science. Even science has not disproven anything written in the bible. In fact, there is so much discredit to evolution that science is looking to Intelligent Design for explanations. Only politics is keeping evolution in the school system, period. Of course, Intelligent Design is a way to bring science back to truth without acknowleding GOD! For example, why has there never been a cross species bone record found for any living creature? If it takes millions of years for one type of animal to become another, then there should be lots of cross species bone records. Darwin himself said that if any part of the evolution theory is found incorrect, then the whole thing is wrong. I believe evolution to be man's explanation to animal adaptations and expanded to help lead to finding the answer as to how we came about. The big bang theory of course is the most humerous, as it is purely a theory. Virtually everything man knows about space is theory, an idea created within a man's mind that could explain what is observered without being proven. Remember the theory that the earth was flat, really popular! Carbon dating (of course it's right). Well, I'm sorry I can't find the article but I know that a farmer had brought some bones in to be tested and the animal was unidentifiable to the scientist and was dated to be 5000yr old. Yet it was actually a week old dead pig. I have had a lot of higher education in science (particularly in chemistry and biology), in fact one of my chemistry teachers tried everything he could to get me to change my major. I've always, even before I was a believer, felt that carbon dating was flawed. It's good in theory, but there is no proof that it is truely accurate only theory.

You don't have to agree with anything I've presented (it's probably full of holes, I'm human afterall), nor would I expect you to. If your honestly looking for God with your heart, you will find him. He will show you what you need to see to believe in him. It is different for everyone. Remember God is not our servent, he will not act like a genie for your amusement. If you don't want to find him, then you can deny any and all evidence that comes your way. I for one believe in God and Jesus! And I pray that as per God's Will that everyone will open their hearts and find him. What does your heart tell you?

God bless you! I hope you find the truth.

[crmann]

Here you go Aon..

Nuclear Theology means the center or essential part of Christianity, that God exists and is the absolute moral standard. It also means that all men sin, so Jesus the Son of God had to die on an altar, the cross, a place of sacrifice for our sin; so that Jesus could credit us with the righteousness of God to be saved. That we can trust in the sovereignty of God, through faith, to keep us saved. Faith in Jesus is the nucleus.

I will attempt to explain to you how salvation in Jesus the Christ works, so that you, who are now an atheist, may accept Him as your Lord and Savior as I have.

We know that matter and living things exist, and we can conclude that nothing can come from nothing by itself because it would break the first law of thermodynamics, of getting energy from no energy. Therefore, I will strive to arrive at a conclusion by reasoning with you that something eternally has been here forever. It has been here from eternity past up to the present time, and something will be here in the future, for nothing materializes in and out of existence by itself. It is impossible to have ever had nothing, if something exists now. Nothing comes from nothing. It is also impossible to conceive of totally nothing. It would consist of no space, time, matter or energy, or even God. This is impossible.

All matter puts off heat, except ar absolute zero. But even at absolute zero matter still has vibrations which will eventually run down. (Concise, Encyclopedia of Science and Technology, 1989, p. 4) Thus it uses up energy and will eventually run down to quantum energy at a certain temperature, which is the smallest amount of radiant energy consisting of no atoms or "electrons that have zero rest mass." (Robert Lisbon; c< Robert Resnick, Quantum Physics, 1985, p. 635). Also, Albert Linstein said as a rule of science and quantum physics, "God does not play dice with the universe." (Lisberg & Resnick, p. 79). There are laws in quantum physics that are not contradictory, and "matter cannot be eternal, according to the theory of relativity"—it would have run down a long time ago. (Fred Heeren, Show Me God, p.108-9). Matter, therefore, has to have a cause or a beginning.

Coming up with a larger multiverse concept of a larger universe does not answer the problem. It would just take longer to run down to equilibrium from eternity past; it is not just from a 20 billion-year-old universe model or more, for theology deals with eternity past, not just a 20 billion-year-old universe which is nothing compared with that. The Bible says God created the universe out of nothing. What is on the other side of the rim of the universe is absolutely nothing. This has yet to be explained, and probably never will. All that exists is God and His universe and that is it. When God created the universe, I am sure that there was a big bang that covered a larger area than a basketball. A 20 billion light year across the universe was created instantly. It is a good thing that God created linear time or our minutes would run together and we would have eternity here.

The only other eternal alternatives are God and quantum energy. According to the second law of thermodynamics (entropy) energy does not condense upon itself and explode into matter or living things, but "it disperses out to where there is no energy in equilibrium." (Concise Encyclopedia of Science and Technology, p. 1876).

Here are some examples: Has anything in the electromagnetic spectrum, such as light, radiation, or heat, ever been proven empirically to change into matter? It's only in theory. As in quantum physics, a "photon can turn into an electron." (Eisberg & Resnick, p. 464). But this is really doubtful and not provable. In nuclear physics it is said that it takes less energy to make more matter (so that the energy is turned to matter) than it takes to get energy from matter, like in an atomic blast. But in a rebounding universe theory, where matter and energy are changed back and forth in a big bang and into a big collapse, you would still progressively lose energy and it would eventually run down like a rubber ball bouncing up and down to a dead stop. (Heeren, p. 103).

Some astronomers are saying that the red shifts are not slowing down and that shows that the universe will expand forever, not to rebound back. The big bang theory does show there was a beginning to the universe, not that that is how it happened. The question is like which came first, the chicken or the egg? It is a cycle; one of them comes from the other. To believe in a rebounding universe is like believing the chicken came from the egg and the egg came from the chicken all the way back in time. There must be a first, or beginning, to break into the cycle, which is to say the chicken was created first, not the egg. This is also like the rebounding universe theory. You must break into the cycle in a beginning. It then would have an appearance of age, not as deception, that is how things look when they are created in a cycle.

But Edwin P. Hubble has proven that the universe had a beginning from red shifts in stars. "That proves an expanding universe that started at a point of origin, as they called the big bang theory." (Heeren, p. 114-117). I believe God could have created the universe millions of light years across at once, that is, then after expanding out. Once it was created it expanded out into space. After all, God made Adam as a grown man. Adam didn’t start out as a baby. Before this big bang, according to their theory, there was nothing. No science deals with something coming from nothing by itself, or that everything was condensed as big as a basketball that stayed in that state for eternity past, or saying all the matter and energy was as big as a speck of dust that exploded.

Where did it come from and how did it explode outside its great gravitational pull? You would have eternal matter. In quantum physics, it is taught that one can almost get something from nothing, "electrons from photons." (Eisberg & Resnick, p. 464). Once again, this has not been empirically proven. It is only theory.

Some people ask where God came from? Since we exist, something has to be eternally here and it cannot be matter or energy. It would have to be something like spirit. God is Spirit, which is not temporal. God (Spirit) does not have to have a beginning. God does not run down but is eternal, and God is independent and self-sustaining. God's name is "Yahweh," or "I am" which mean underived existence.

God cannot create Himself from nothing. He would have had to have been there to do it. Neither was God created by the big bang. So this leaves us with Spirit which is eternal; which is a very powerful being to have make the universe and is
very intelligent. This leaves us no other choice of what is eternal but God.

In Hebrews 11:1, it states "Faith is the evidence of things not seen." So, God is not seen empirically, but the evidence that concludes His existence is forensically (forensic is an argument based on evidence) shown to prove Him.

For instance, a court of law can prove whom the murderer is without having empirically watched it happen, because the evidence concludes the crime. Another example is radioactive gamma radiation that cannot be empirically, (empiricism is what you see, smell, touch, taste, or hear) seen or felt but can kill a person within hours. So we should look for other methods besides direct empiricism of God to prove His existence. We should look for things like design of things or causation and moral arguments. You cannot prove empirically that you just walked into your bedroom at night after you have gone to sleep, because you cannot feel, see, etcetera, the past while in the present. The examples are endless. One cannot empirically prove any of the past, but people believe it. It is like proving radio waves by seeing them, love, light, black holes in the universe or atoms which have never been seen by the eye, only images through microscopes that pick up heat, or that "there are other people with minds you cannot see empirically. "(Ted Honderich, The Oxford Companion to Philosophy,
p.637).

In philosophy, the rationalist and empiricist went round and round on how do we know anything? Well! Empiricism won out in these rounds. So now the word "proof" has to be empirical, not rational, to be proof. This means one cannot prove gravity because no one has seen or touched gravity.

We can prove gravity rationally by evidence and we have solid evidence that it exists, the same way we prove the existence of God. Empiricism does not prove everything that we know is true. By the scientific method we cannot prove one has committed adultery, coveted, or lusted in one's heart after someone or thing? No! We can only prove these by evidence without directly seeing them.

One cannot prove gravity empirically by seeing or touching it. One has to go on evidence rationally to say there is gravity. In quantum physics, they say "gravity is caused by gravitons?" (Eisberg & Resnick, p. 654). Yea! That really explains it! No man can prove to you the existence of God objectively. Only God can prove to you He exists. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him.

And this will be in a way that you will never be able to doubt His existence again. If one loves deliberate sinning, they will never find God; He is hidden to them until they put faith in Jesus. Jesus living in my heart is the best proof I have to offer you. You can know there is a God by only objective arguments, but you will never know for sure unless you experience God yourself in Jesus by faith; for without experiencing God how can you really know He exist? The Bible says one can experience God in Christ by faith, and that you may know you have eternal life. The word know is "oida" in Greek. It means to know by experience. The other word for know, "ginosko," is intellectually, only objective knowledge. We need both. After all, it is God who needs to show you Himself, not others showing His existence.

The evidence of design and pattern in living and nonliving things show a designer—God. Intelligently designed pattern could not come from quantum energy by an accident. Some scientists teach design is an illusion or that it is not a good enough argument for God, and that is their argument. Although macroevolution tries to account for design, it does not. But Francis Crick (who first broke the DNA code) said that DNA is so complex that it could not have come about by accident; it had to be designed by an intelligent source. If U.F.O.s were the cause, then where did the U.F.O.s come from? God is a better option of whom is eternal, not U.F.O.s. I do not believe in U.F.O.s. One reason is because there are no sonic booms at these sights where they take off faster than the speed of sound. Also, there would he enough radio waves coming from their planet, and they would be as noticeable as looking at the sun in daytime with a radio tele-scope, and they're not there. Also, they would have to deliver plants and fish and animal life all over the earth and therefore do it from at least five light years away, among other arguments against them.

Take a look at your body or DNA; as they were made as efficiently, as though they were intelligently designed. Does DNA have conciseness to know how to change the molecular structure of a butterfly wing so it would have asymmetrical and intricate design from DNA that could not even see what it is doing or grow eyes to see? I don’t think so. Also, biology can prove that only "living things come from living things by cell division." (Stephen L. Wofe, Molecular and Cellular Bmldsfy, 1993). So, God is the creator of your consciousness, of you, the reader, and myself. Secularism is basically a religious denomination for unbelievers in Jesus, or the supernatural.

Jesus Himself gave us His hypothesis in John 7:17. "If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." So experiment and accept Christ Jesus as Lord and see if it is true, or if you feel God's Holy Spirit deep within you. This will prove Jesus is right and that He exist. This also will show you that God does exist. Feeling God's presence through the Holy Spirit also proves one has a soul, for the best teacher is experience. You can only prove it this way directly to yourself, for others cannot feel what you do. You can feel or know the presence of God when you are emotionally up or down. It is not feeling your feelings, but it is feeling the presence of God. It is subjective of His objective presence, it is not all subjective just of you. It is a knowing of God by experience that is not just in one's head, nor
is it just your emotions of feeling good. And since millions of people of different centuries and cultures that have the sense of experiences of God's awareness in their soul, this is a good inductive argument like the scientist's hypothesis of unobservable data. This is like the argument from observations of lines on photographic plates to his conclusions that they are caused by electrons or protons.

The arguments do not guarantee the truth of the scientist's hypothesis, but the more diverse is the data, the more probable the hypotheses. (Honderich, p. 764). "If your hypotheses is right, then the conclusion is also correct." The objective arguments are good but just do not prove God demonstratively, as does the subjective argument of applied theology and seeing it through your thoughts and inner empirical experience with Scripture. I have proven God's existence myself but I can only prove it to myself demonstrably, and you can too if you apply Scripture to your life the way Jesus said to do it. Both together will prove God's existence to you as long as you are open and not willfully reject solid evidence. Theology is the science of God.

The objective argument is provable only forensically, bur some do not recognize this as proof. But you can prove the existence of God’s objective presence subjectively in your spirit by salvation or the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Both are received by faith alone. By using applied theology of really believing the Bible and applying it to your life, you can see it fits with reality. God is a hidden God but reveals Himself to those who put their trust in Him. You then have subjective empirical experience of the existence of God. (Isaiah 48:6). Even if God was to be empirically seen in the sky, it would not help one to be saved apart from the cross of Christ, because you would still sin and be a sinner under God's judgment. So proving God's existence does not help those who do not believe. To be saved you need salvation in Jesus. Also, in physiology, when we see or touch something, what our hand touches is turned into sensations in our nerves that go to our head and is reinterpreted in what we touch or see in our head. And in philosophy we cannot tell that what is in our head is the exact same thing as what we are touch-ing or seeing is because it is mediated through our senses. What a true philoso-pher wants is direct experience to our person. The experience of the Holy Spirit in our spirit through faith in Jesus is directly, no mediation, to ourselves, which is more solid proof than seeing miracles or Jesus outside of us, and He is just as real as the outward world. The inner empirical world or universe is just as real or more so than the outer empirical world. A blind person can feel something they cannot see outwardly, but it is real. The same is spiritual when we feel God's presence. We cannot see, like the blind person, but it is just as real. If you think you're confused, a philosophy student once asked his professor, "Do I exist?" The professor responded by saying, "Why, who wants to know? So you see, everything we know outwardly we have to know inwardly first.

Also, I would like to say that what got me to feel the Holy Spirit so strongly, just blaring in my face, was the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I noticed that the word for "gift" was "charismata," and the word for "anointing" was "chrisma"; This has the same root word. This is not for salvation, but it is for better service in witnessing. The baptism "in" does not mean "by" or "with" in the Greek. "This shows that the Holy Spirit is the element you are baptized into, not the agent you have in salvation." (Howard M. Ervin, Spirit Baptism, 1987). The Holy Spirit baptism is an anointing that opens one up to the gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 5-12). Having the gifts of the Spirit has changed my whole life to dedication to Christ Jesus completely, which gives boldness not to be ashamed of Jesus anywhere and to tell others about Jesus everywhere I go, and that is what its purpose is.

Cosmologically, I said that the only things that have the possibilities of being eternal are God or quantum energy, because energy does not run down like matter. God is not energy. One cannot have a relationship with energy, nor does energy have morals, because energy is not a person. So the next part, the teleological study: intelligent design (which I do not think is an illusion) that macroevolution tries to account for design that has no empirical evidence with fossils going back to the amoeba, tilts the argument in saying that God is proven forensically by evidence to be the real designer of the space time universe and you, the reader. When a person does not believe in God, which shows more of a willful problem than an intellectual one, he or she comes up with strange views of the origin of the universe. For example, the agnostic Immanuel Kant once said, "One cannot prove God's existence demonstratively." (S.J. Frederick Copeston, A History of Philosophy, v9, 1993, p. 187). In science, which is empirical philosophy, they say only what is seen or touched is proof. We do not know all reality to know what standard to use to determine all reality and to say one has to see it to prove it is just philosophy; even empiricism is not provable empirically.

One cannot hear hearing or see seeing, etcetera. We cannot prove God's existence empirically but we can prove His existence by rationalism, which is real proof. Another way is just common sense. If one cannot prove God this way, then one cannot prove there is such a thing, as hypocrites, lust, or hate in someone's heart because one cannot see these, either. During the enlightenment period, the age of reason alone apart from Scripture, there were a lot of atheists and agnostics that both railed against Christianity. The best agnostic known, David Hume, made his argument that one has never seen a tree maker like seeing an engineer make a building. (Copeston, p. 276). They claimed reason but were unreasonable in their logic. Without all the facts and with reason alone, one can prove anything they want to using the Bible.

The evidence is there; do we want to believe it? Agnosticism and atheism, plus U.F.O.s are crutches people use to justify their sin and nor to deal with a Holy God. Even religion can be a crutch. The Pharisees, the religious leaders of Jesus’ day, crucified the Lord of heaven. It is sin that makes one disbelieve God, for Psalm 14:1 says "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good." You see, it is sin that blinds us to the truth.

I would warn you if you went to the public school system, it was influenced by an atheist by the name of John Dewey. "He changed the public school to atheistic principles and pragmatism, instrumentarionalism and humanism. Man can solve all of his problems by himself and if it does work it is true pragmatically." And the way they teach atheism is to leave God out of education completely.

John Dewey did say "if religion works it is true, hut he did not want students to experiment with the Bible to see" (a double standard), (Copeston, p. 365-75). Why he said this does not make sense because he was an atheist, and his influence could make you doubt Christianity and the existence of God.

This is another form of works for salvation by human effort neglecting faith in Jesus and the atonement. God may be evil to you or strange, but there is more to proving the existence of God than meets the eye. God is present everywhere but some cannot find Him. The reason is He is not in our spirit because it is dark and dead through our sin. God has gone to a lot of pain, time, and expense through history for the God of the universe that is all around you to he found in your dark spirit through faith in Jesus, Gods' son.

When your spirit is dead in sin it is like black paint with no white on it at all. When you are dead spiritually, you cannot and will not find God anywhere. The darkness is very great. The God who created everything in the universe cannot be found anywhere because He is not found in you because of your unbelief, so it is a Commandment of God that the atheist be left in ignorance.
I’ll share this commandment with you.

The darkness of sin has blinded the eyes of their understanding, that they cannot see and understand divine things; it has left an ignorance of God in them, to which are owing their want of a disposition to God, an alienation from him, and an aversion to a life agreeable to him; and this is the state and case of all men, even of God’s elect before conversion, who are not only dark but "darkness" itself, till they are made light in the Lord; and when the true light of grace shines, the darkness passes away (Ephesians 5:8; 1 John 2:8).

There is in many an affected ignorance, which is very criminal; they are "willingly ignorant", as the apostle says of the scoffers who shall arise in the last time, or rather they are unwilling to understand what they might, "they know not, nor will they understand, they walk on in darkness"; they do not choose to make use of but shun the means of knowledge, and shut their eyes against all light and conviction; they do not care to come to the light, and love darkness rather than light; they do not desire to know God and his ways, but rather that he would depart from them; with such as these wisdom expostulates, saying, "How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity?—and fools hate knowledge?" (Proverbs 1:21; 2 Peter 3:5; Psalms 82:5; John 3:19; Job 21:14).

Some, because of their contempt of the means of light and knowledge, and the stubborn choice they make of error and falsehood, are given up to judicial blindness and hardness of heart; as many among the heathens, who because they liked not to retain God in their knowledge, were given up to a reprobate mind, or to a mind void of judgment. (Romans 1:28)

The followers of Antichrist, who received not the love of the truth, had a strong delusion sent them to believe a lie (2 Thessalonians 2:10, 11), others have been left under the power of Satan, the same with the power of darkness, who is the god of this world, and who is suffered to blind the eyes of them who believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ should shine unto them (2 Corinthians 4:4).

There you are Aon. Are you on the path to being convinced? My prayer is that you are.

I see that others love you enough to endeavor to help you understand that there is an Almighty God to whom we owe everything and who loves us.

The old timer,

Cleveland

[Finaldash]

There are no Atheists.
For example do you know exactly how many stars there are in the universe.
Do you know the number of grain of sand in th Isl. of Hawaii?

It' like saying there are no gold in China. You have to know each and every single contents of each rock in China, or open up every single Chinese's mouth for gold fillings.

Base on this we can safely agree that your knowledge of the universe has to be less than 1%. Now there is still 99% possibility that there is a God.

If you agree then you are just not sure that there is a God.
Which makes you an Agnostic.

Let's start from there.

credit to WOTM,
David

[grumpy]

Wow crmann, all I can say is Thank You that is quite inspirational for me.

[hoshianna]

Well, there was this christian astronomer who just made friends with an atheist. They get along pretty good but at the back of the atheists mind he was expecting his friend to try to win him over to christianity. Days turned into weeks but the christian made no attempts to convert him. Then one day the atheist friend offered to help him at the observatory. The christian was only too happy to accept. When they arrived at the observatory the atheist observed an intricate moving solar system model hanging from the ceiling. He exclaimed, "Wow! that sure is neat." Christian says, "Yeah, I never get tired of looking at it when I do my thinking." Atheist, "I want one for the kids. Who makes those?" The christian answered smiling, "No one & no one put it up there, too."

[OBXBob]

Good one, hoshianna!

YBIC,

Bob

[OBXBob]

Awesome, Cleveland!!!

YBIC,

Bob

[crmann]

Bob said:

Awesome, Cleveland!!!

Thanks Bob.....

God is Awesome.....

After building my personal library for many years, which included many of my Dad's books, I can now put together the thoughts of many authors mingled with my own on a number of topics. It does take me a while sometimes, however.

Then I have friends borrowing books from me and also giving me books, many of them now out of print. My books are my friends. They help me remember. I also have books, like on nuclear physics which I cannot understand a word they are written about, but it is interesting that I am able to get the gist of what they are discussing. But, don't ask me to explain their ideas to someone else

Blessngs Bob.....and thanks again.

[OBXBob]

Hi Cleveland,

God really blessed us when he sent you to this board!



YBIC,

Bob

[Finaldash]

That was awesome Cleveland. I learned a lot. God is so great.

But AON are you still there?

[crmann]

How about that! Prepare a feast for a visitor, and he's no longer there.

[shem1]

A scientific approach:

Electromagnetic coupling constant: This force causes charges to repel and oppose charges to attract. If this constant were slightly stronger then it would prevent atoms from sharing electrons, then there would be no molecules, if slightly smaller, then electrons would too easily leave the nucleus. Result: no life.

Mass of the universe: The matter of the universe is fixed within a narrow range. According to astrophysicists, a few percent increase would result in the stars being to hot and large. A decrease would result in no heavy elements. The main element in the universe would be hydrogen. Result: no life.

Earth’s distance from the sun: If the earth were a few percent closer, it would upset the water balance on earth. If a few percent farther, the earth would freeze. Result: no life.

Size of Moon: The gravitational effect of the moon effects the weather and tides. If the moon were bigger, there would be massive tides and winds, that would wipe out life on earth. If the moon were smaller, the tides and winds would be too small, and the earth would overheat. Result: no life.

Nuclear force: This force keeps protons in the nucleus of each atom together. If the force is too strong, the number of protons to attract to the nucleus would increase, and the universe would consist of mainly heavy metals. The chemicals of life - oxygen, hydrogen, carbon, would almost not exist. A decrease, then the only element would be hydrogen. Result: no life.

More examples are: Size of the moon, axial tilt of the earth, earth’s rotation, expansion rate of the universe.

These examples demonstrate a universe with the structure and balance of a finely tuned, organized machine. This is not to even mention the complexity of our bodies, earth, etc.

My point is, these things point to a creator, not some random event. If you are interested in more scientific examples of the existence of God, try looking at the Laws of Thermodynamics - they have never been disproven, and prove the very same thing.

By the way, I was an atheist before. I believe many people don’t want to believe in God, because of what they were taught about religions. Don’t look at man-made inventions to make your decision. Look at the bible it will point you to who God is and what He is all about. If you have been exposed to a religion before, you will probably find that “religion” contradicts what God/Jesus says - read the bible. Listen to christian radio, look to bible scholars, read this site. If you are searching for God, He will most certainly find you. Looking at point sides of any issue/subject is a rational and educated approach. Too many people don’t want to find out the “Christian side” which takes effort. Take the effort and you will be forever changed. I was.