is Jesus the first born from the dead elijah enoch or moses

[ozell]

Hi FP

I copied this from the question and answer thread

If Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, why do we insist that the 24 elders, Moses, Abraham Elijah or even Enoch, are in heaven.

Is Jesus the firstborn from the dead or is it someone else?

Has anyone preceded Jesus in death to life and to live forever?

I think its Jesus.

Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


ozell

[perigrini]

Hi FP

I copied this from the question and answer thread

If Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, why do we insist that the 24 elders, Moses, Abraham Elijah or even Enoch, are in heaven.

Is Jesus the firstborn from the dead or is it someone else?

Has anyone preceded Jesus in death to life and to live forever?

I think its Jesus.

Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.


ozell

I'd say this is a strong arguement against the claim the elders are humans that have "ascended" to heaven.

I believe the onus is upon those making such claims to both provide real scriptural support for those claims as well as a scripturally valid and strong way to cope with what you've stated here.

blessings,

perigrini

[bchandler]

Jesus cearly indicated in his parable the righteous dead were in paradise (not heaven) also known as Abraham's bosom.

Also note that Enoch and Elijah DID NOT DIE, but were taken up alive, while moses was buried by God himself according to scripture... and was gathered to his fathers.

It is for this reason that I believe the 2 witnesses may in fact be Enoch and Elijah... I can not think of any other humans who have not tasted death... if there are others let me know.

Jesus said it is given once for a man to die... and Enoch and Elijah may yet be required to taste death... after all regardless of how righteous they were/are... all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Now.. i dunno if you count John the baptists death as being Elijah's or not... It's all a bit confusing when you start dealing with temporal annomolies... or spiritual ones... John came in the spirit of Elijah, but I don't know there is any indication he was literally Elijah reborn.. because then I would have to believe in reincarnation... which is contrary to God's word.

Anyway... Jesus is IMO the first fruits from the dead... remember also that many graves were opened on resurrection day... not just Jesus'... he indeed released the captives from the place of the righteous dead and brought some of them back from the dead... with him... and they testified of Jesus and still the Jewish leadership hardened their hearts and refused to submit to Jesus authority.

I believe that they KNEW who he was... and believed he was who he said he was... but refused to submit to him because he was not their idea of what the king who should rule them should be like.

wasn't it Jesus himself who said that no man had at any time ascended into heaven? So one must ask... Where did Enoch and Elijah go? If not to heaven?

I also think there may be another interpretation to that statement by Jesus.

Is it possible that Jesus was not saying that no man was yet in heaven... but rather that no man had ascended (by his own power or righteousness) to heaven.... in other words no man had at any time been perfect enough to attain heaven... and that we only get there by the grace of God?

[ozell]

Hi bchandler

Jesus cearly indicated in his parable the righteous dead were in paradise (not heaven) also known as Abraham's bosom.

Jesus has a kingdom which he will rule for 1000 years.
The father has a kingdom that comes down after the 1000 years are over with.
What other place could paradise be? its the kingdom of the son and or the Father

wasn't it Jesus himself who said that no man had at any time ascended into heaven? So one must ask... Where did Enoch and Elijah go? If not to heaven?

Enoch is the only one that has not tasted death.
he did not go to heaven, he is not in outerspace, he must be on this earth.
God made this earth for man. He must be here.
Jesus kingdom and the father kingdom will come here one day.

Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

One day we will all be translated unto the kingdom of Jesus. Jesus kingdom is not here. The 1000 year rule of Jesus has not come.


Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Isaiah 45: 11Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

I also think there may be another interpretation to that statement by Jesus.

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

there is no need for interpretation this is very clear and to the point.

Is it possible that Jesus was not saying that no man was yet in heaven... but rather that no man had ascended (by his own power or righteousness) to heaven.... in other words no man had at any time been perfect enough to attain heaven... and that we only get there by the grace of God?

No man means no man! It covers everyone one from Adam to the last last man borne of woman. This is man and woman. No man.
In order to get to heaven you have to ascend, whether its to the 2nd heaven, the moon and stars, etc or to the third heaven where the Lord resides.


ozell

[Lookfortruth]

Enoch is the only one that has not tasted death.

When did Elijah die?

[Tevye]

I believe that there was a deal made for the body of Moses, and that he and Elijah appeared to Jesus at the mount of transfiguration.

Jesus also did say in the end of the Gospel of John, there would be one there who would stay alive until His return.

Is it a possibility that the apostle John will be with Elijah as one of the two witnesses?

I know it also says that He was not saying he would not die, and we know the two witnesses do die at some point in the 70th week of Daniel.

Like Elijah, was the apostle John mysteriously transported to a time in the future?
According to tradition John died in Ephesus.
Could they have been wrong? Or could the apostle John still be alive somewhere today?
Has he lived for all these years preserved, like the knight in the Last Crusade movie.
Is it possible?


Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
John 21:20-23


It would be interesting to have a witness to the things from before Jesus lived, and another witness from when Jesus was on the earth, as a testimony of the true Christ, and to thwart the reign of antichrist.

[bchandler]

U bring up an interesting point... We know God transcends time... so it is not impossible for God to move people through time just as the spirit caught Phillip away to some other place... the spirit of God could catch a person away to not only another place but another time as well.

So... how interesting would it be if Enoch and/or Elijah and/or John, were caught away to be his witnesses in the last days... to reappear in our own time.

Very interesting thought and possibility.

As for no man ascending... what exactly is meant there... The reason I raise the issue is because Jesus words were past tense, even though his own ascention was yet future.

Jesus ascended by his own power, just as he raised himself from the dead by his own power. That's why I raised the possibility that Jesus coments may have refered to an act of our own will... and that no man can or has ever attained heaven and been able to ascend on his own.

How you see that passage depends greatly upon the context of ascension, and whether what is described is an act of self will and attained righteousness, or not.

While the words of the passage may be perfectly straight forward, the contextual meaning of ascension in that passage is not. it depends on whether ascention was an act of God, or an act of self-will and/or righteous achievement. If we see it as an act of self-will and/or righteous achievement then we can truely say no man has ascended but Jesus... If anyone else has been caught-up/taken to heaven it has not been by ascension of their own self-will and/or righteous achievement, but by the will, grace, and power of the Father.

so... as you see... whether ascension is something one does, rather than something that happens to you can make quite a bit of difference in how one views this particular statement of Jesus.

[ozell]

Hi Lookfortruth

When did Elijah die?

Hbr 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets:

:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

:34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of [cruel] mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Paul said that there is a third heaven. If there is a third heaven there must be a 1st and a 2nd.

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Jesus said no man has ascended into heaven.

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Which heaven did Elijah ascend to?

Elijah the prophet also fit the description in Hebrews of prophets dying not receiving the promise. Paul said they wandered about in sheepskins and they wandered in deserts, this fits John the baptist and Elijah.
ozell

[ozell]

Hi

God is a God of Order and Time.

Job 7:1 [Is there] not an appointed time to man upon earth? [are not] his days also like the days of an hireling?

Ecc 3:1 To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up [that which is] planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Hab 2:3 For the vision [is] yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

1Cr 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

ozell

[Lookfortruth]

This was taken from the NASB,
2Ki 2:7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood over against them afar off: and they two stood by the Jordan.
2Ki 2:8 And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
2Ki 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I am taken from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
2Ki 2:10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, which parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
2Ki 2:12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and the horsemen thereof! And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
2Ki 2:13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of the Jordan.
2Ki 2:14 And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is Jehovah, the God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they were divided hither and thither; and Elisha went over.


Are you saying that he died first? Does anyone know what the "chariots of Israel and the horseman" means?

[sacredcowbasher]

Jesus is the first born from the dead because His glorified fleshly body ascended into heaven. This was the first and there has been none since. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Our spirits go to heaven, our bodies to the grave.

It was already mentioned that Enoch and Elijah didn't die, so it wasn't their glorified bodies that ascended (where they ascended to, I don't know). I had never thought about it until I read this thread. I guess I just thought they went to heaven. This would seem to violate scripture however from what I just read.

It is interesting to think that they may still be on the earth. That is a mind blower.

[Lookfortruth]

2Ki 2:13 He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him,

Elijah told him that for him to receive a double portion of his Spirit, he would have to be present when he was taken.....

[ozell]

Hi Lookfortruth

Are you saying that he died first? Does anyone know what the "chariots of Israel and the horseman" means?

He did not die first before going up into heaven. but he eventually died.

Elijah was taken up into heaven. Yes

the question I'm asking next is which heaven? seeing there are 3 according to the scriptures and Paul.

In order for Elijah to go to the heaven where Jesus dwells, Elijah would have had to died first. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

We in our time also go to heaven whenever we fly in a airplane.
We have to remember there is nothing new under the sun.
Elijah was one of the first to fly in the heavens. not us or the past 100 years.

The bible talks about a heaven and a heavens of heavens. Which means there is more than one.

Deu 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the LORD'S thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is].

Neh 9:6 Thou, [even] thou, [art] LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all [things] that [are] therein, the seas, and all that [is] therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.


After Elijah ascension into the heavens notice in 2chronicles21v12
He sent a writing to Johram. How did the writing get to the king.
Elijah could not have brought it himself. Only Jesus hath ascended to heaven and descended to this earth.

Jesus said

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

Paul said

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

As far as the chariots of Israel. these are Jesus chariots.

The God in the old testament gave Jacob his holy name Israel.

Jacob name is Jacob, God gave him the name of Israel.

this is why you read in the OT, Israel you pollute my holy name.

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel

ozell

[ozell]

Hi sacredcowbasher
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus is the first born from the dead because His glorified fleshly body ascended into heaven. This was the first and there has been none since. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Our spirits go to heaven, our bodies to the grave.

It was already mentioned that Enoch and Elijah didn't die, so it wasn't their glorified bodies that ascended (where they ascended to, I don't know). I had never thought about it until I read this thread. I guess I just thought they went to heaven. This would seem to violate scripture however from what I just read.

It is interesting to think that they may still be on the earth. That is a mind blower.

One thing that I 've been taught by the Lord and my teacher is that everything in the name of christianity is not taught from the HOLY BIBLE.
And if they are trying to teach from the bible we have to read for our selves to make sure that what the pastor is saying lines up with the Word of God.

We have to rightly divide the scriptures
We have to ask the Lord for understanding.
We have to study to be worthy.
We have to check out all denominations.
etc, etc. etc.

ozell

[ozell]

Where did Elijah go?

The sons of the prophets told us.

2Ki 2:16 And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send

Remember Elijah wrote a letter to after his ascension to a latter king.

ozell

[sacredcowbasher]

Hi Ozell,
If I remember right, the school of the prophets were not right about a lot of things. They did a lot of guessing or speculating. They watched Elijah closely from a distance. I don't think we can say that Elijah is on earth from what they said. They were guessing.

I like to guess and try to understand things. When we you use the bible to interpret the bible we can guess with education. I can see that you do this which contributes to an interesting discussion.

I don't recall about the letter he wrote. I recall that the Lord told him to anoint someone who would become king which was his last assignment from the time he ran from Jezebell then was ministered to by the angel. After anointing the king he was ready to depart and told Elisha not to follow him etc.

[ozell]

If I remember right, the school of the prophets were not right about a lot of things. They did a lot of guessing or speculating. They watched Elijah closely from a distance. I don't think we can say that Elijah is on earth from what they said. They were guessing.

I like to guess and try to understand things. When we you use the bible to interpret the bible we can guess with education. I can see that you do this which contributes to an interesting discussion.

I don't recall about the letter he wrote. I recall that the Lord told him to anoint someone who would become king which was his last assignment from the time he ran from Jezebell then was ministered to by the angel. After anointing the king he was ready to depart and told Elisha not to

Hi sacredcowbasher

They are still the sons of the prophets. There fathers are the Isaiahs, Elijahs, and Nathans of the bible. If there was some truth to Elijahs going to heaven where the Father dwells, then they would have made reference to it. But we read what they actually said and that is maybe the Lord put Elijah in a valley or on a mountain.

Elijah ran from Jezebel. This Prophet had the Lord 100% behind him and he coward up to this female priest and her pagan god. Elijah was burnt out.

Please read 2 Chronicles21v12. Line up the kings of Israel and Judah and you will see that Elijah was taken up into heaven on one king watch and sent a letter on another king watch.

Peace to you in Jesus name

ozell

[SueAnn]

And where does Lazarus fall in this discussion?

He died. Jesus resurrected him.

So why does he not qualify?