Rapture question, PLEASE LOOK!

[heavenlycreation]

Ok, here's the deal. I'm really excited right now, and it's kinda hard to slow down and type correctly.

Alright, here's what's going on, every since I found this website back in June or July of this year, I have been trying to figure out when the rapture will be in relation to the 7 year trib or 70th week, whatever you want to call it. Ya know, the last 7 years of the planet. OK, so anyway, I've always been fairly sure that I don't believe the post-trib theory, and I won't go into the reasons for that right now, but I have been torn between pre-trib and pre-wrath. Well I found something in Revelation today and I really want to hear what you guys think about it.....

In chapter 4, John describes the throne room of heaven, with the 24 thrones and 24 elders clothed in white with crowns of gold on their heads. Then in verse 10 it says: "The 24 elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne saying:......."

It says that they are casting their crowns! SOMEBODY PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG HERE, BUT DON'T WE ALL GET OUR CROWNS AT THE BEMA SEAT??? So then that would mean that the Bema Seat and crown passing out has already happened before the Lamb gets the scroll and opens any of the seals?!?!

I am really looking foward to hearing what everyone thinks about this! I am going to post this in a couple of places, not to debate, but because I want to know if I am missing something, so please forgive me if I post it in a place where it is not welcome.

Thanks

[Herb]

heavenlycreation

I don't normally post here but I thought I would comment. It's my view it's error to attempt to develope a rapture timing based on questionable interpretations. Although we can speculate, no one really knows for sure the full meaning of these 24 elders -- as no one really knows the full meaning of the angels of the seven churches.

Herb

[heavenlycreation]

Herb,

Thanks for responding, I was wondering what your thoughts were about this.

Here's the way I see it, we can speculate that the 24 elders are either:
a. people
b. angels
c. creatures
d. God

I can't help but think that the 24 elders are not angels, creatures, or God, and so logic tells me that they are people. I don't claim to know who these people are, but aparently they all have crowns and they are casting them at the feet of Jesus.

So, if people in heaven today do not yet have crowns, and no one will get crowns until the judgement, then that makes me think that this picture painted in Revelation ch. 4, is of something in the future when people have been judged, and rewarded.

[crmann]

HeavenlyCreation,

Here is a different thought on who the 24 Elders might be:

Who Are the 24 Elders?
Revelation 4:4&10-11
Revelation 5:8&14

4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the
thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in
white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on
the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever,
and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

11 "You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were
created."

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures
and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each
having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are
the prayers of the saints.

14 Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!"
And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who
lives forever and ever.

Who are these 24 elders?
Another bible mystery?
NO.

>>Keep in mind that Jesus states several times in the
New Testament: "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob..." <<

Luke 13:28

28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you
see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in
the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out."

Matthew 22:32

32 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God
of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the
living."

With that fact established, let us look again at the
geneology lines found in Luke 3:34-38 and make sure
that we include Abraham, Isaac and stop with Jacob!

Luke 3:34-38

34 ...the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,

35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the
son of Eber, the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the
son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the
son of Lamech, the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan,
the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the
son of God.

Now we take this lineage and reverse it so it makes sense...

1. God
2. Adam
3. Seth
4. Enosh
5. Cainan
6. Mahalalel
7. Jared
8. Enoch
9. Methuselah
10. Lamech
11. Noah
12. Shem
13. Arphaxad
14. Cainan
15. Shelah
16. Eber
17. Peleg
18. Reu
19. Serug
20. Nahor
21. Terah
22. Abraham
23. Isaac
24. Jacob

One change needs to be made: God couldn't be one of the
24 "elders", so we remove God as one of the elders
and replace it with the one person who is missing
in this lineage. Who is missing from this lineage?


ABEL!

Before Seth, Abel was the chosen line
before he was murdered by his brother
Cain. Abel is defiently an "elder".

Add Abel to the 24 elders list above in between
Adam and Seth and this "mystery" is solved!


Cleveland

[perigrini]

If the 24 elders are humans then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross as they are in heaven prior to Jesus' work on the cross.

Who the 24 elders are is entirely speculative, but people will push whatever fits their agenda, that's why the pretribbers say they are people.

blessings,

p.

[crmann]

Revelation 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Peri, Aren't humans the only creatures who will be wearing crowns on their heads? And, as you say, Who the 24 elders are is entirely speculative.

Could you explain just a little more why these elders cannot be human.

Cleveland

[perigrini]

Revelation 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Peri, Aren't humans the only creatures who will be wearing crowns on their heads? And, as you say, Who the 24 elders are is entirely speculative.

No, humans are not the only ones who wear crowns.

2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
Revelation 6:2

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars
Revelation 12:1

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.
Revelation 14:14

So are all of these crown wearers humans? No.
So just because humans ALSO are given crowns does not in any way prove who the 24 elders are unless we're also willing to apply that standard consistantly.

Could you explain just a little more why these elders cannot be human.

Cleveland

Furthermore...

1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?"

3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.

4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;

Revelation 5:1-4

We know that ultimately it is Jesus who is worthy, so why is it that no one in heaven, on the earth or under the earth is found worthy according to scripture?

The only answer can be that at this snapshot the event that makes Jesus worthy, the CROSS has not yet taken place at this point.

Then check out what transpires...

5 and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."

6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

Revelation 5:5-6

John is blessed with the experience of witnessing the greatest event in the history of the world from the perspective of heaven...and he shares it with us.

In the first section no one is found worthy, not in heaven, not on the earth, nor even under the earth (dead).
But THEN one is found worthy, the Lamb standing, as if slain. We know this is the Lamb of God...Jesus from the root of David.

Now the problem with the elders being humans is that they are in heaven BEFORE the cross and are there to surround Jesus as He is found worthy. So if we accept the argument that the elders are human, then this shows humans in heaven with their crowns PRIOR to the cross, which means Jesus died needlessly.

Therefore, I believe this passage clearlly shows that the elders are not humans or Jesus needn't have gone to the cross to get men to be with God....hence my previous post.


In Christ,

perigrini

[ozell]

The 24 elders have to had been human at one time.
The 24 elders have to had been ministers in the Lord's sanctuary at one time.
The 24 elders have to return to the Lord's house performing there duty of past when the Lord returns.

Notice The Word FOREVER When referring to the high priest.
Notice the 24 elders in the throne room of God.
Notice the High Priest were the only people to go inside the holies of holy.

Deut 10:8 At that time the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day.

Deut 21:5 And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried:

1Chron 15:2 Then David said, None ought to carry the ark of God but the Levites: for them hath the LORD chosen to carry the ark of God, and to minister unto him for ever.

1Chron 23:13 The sons of Amram; Aaron and Moses: and Aaron was separated, that he should sanctify the most holy things, he and his sons for ever, to burn incense before the LORD, to minister unto him, and to bless in his name for ever.

Ex 28:1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, even Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.

1Chron 24:4 And there were more chief men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar; and thus were they divided. Among the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen chief men of the house of their fathers, and eight among the sons of Ithamar according to the house of their fathers.

:5 Thus were they divided by lot, one sort with another; for the governors of the sanctuary, and governors of the house of God, were of the sons of Eleazar, and of the sons of Ithamar.

7: Now the first lot came forth to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah,
8: The third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim,
9: The fifth to Malchijah, the sixth to Mijamin,
10: The seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah,
11: The ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecaniah,
12: The eleventh to Eliashib, the twelfth to Jakim,
13: The thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jeshebeab,
14: The fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer,
15: The seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Aphses,
16: The nineteenth to Pethahiah, the twentieth to Jehezekel,
17: The one and twentieth to Jachin, the two and twentieth to Gamul,
18: The three and twentieth to Delaiah, the four and twentieth to Maaziah.

Heb 7:22: By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25: Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14: For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country

39: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Here is one of the Priest from Chronicles being made the high priest by the Lord to Judge his court, his house. In the OT he is called Jeshua, in the NT he is caled Joshua.


Zech 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

7: Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8: Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

9: For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10: In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

ozell

[perigrini]

The 24 elders have to had been human at one time.
The 24 elders have to had been ministers in the Lord's sanctuary at one time.
The 24 elders have to return to the Lord's house performing there duty of past when the Lord returns.

Notice The Word FOREVER When referring to the high priest.
Notice the 24 elders in the throne room of God.
Notice the High Priest were the only people to go inside the holies of holy.

By this logic then we must conclude that the angels and the 4 living beasts were also human at some point as they are before God in the Revelation passages previously cited.


p.

[ozell]

ozell wrote:

The 24 elders have to had been human at one time.
The 24 elders have to had been ministers in the Lord's sanctuary at one time.
The 24 elders have to return to the Lord's house performing there duty of past when the Lord returns.

Notice The Word FOREVER When referring to the high priest.
Notice the 24 elders in the throne room of God.
Notice the High Priest were the only people to go inside the holies of holy.

By this logic then we must conclude that the angels and the 4 living beasts were also human at some point as they are before God in the Revelation passages previously cited.

Hi perigrini

No
the angels were created and the scriptures let you know that they were created and they did not come from the dust of the earth as man did.

You can find the 4 beast and the angels in the old testament and in the new testament.

The 24 elders don't show up until revelation . No where else.

In the old testament the only being that can be considered in the throne room of God is

Gabriel, because he said I stand in the presence of God.
The 7 spirits of God for the are his eyes through out the earth
The 4 beast for they transport the Lord where ever he wants to go.
Then you have the rainbow from Noah day.

These are the only beings that you will find in the old testament traveling with the Lord.

Oh yes Micheal may be in there somewhere.

The son's of Aaron (the High preist) are the only men that can go into the sanctuary even into the holies of Holy. If only these men where allowed to go into the Holies of Holy and the Lord presence was there.
The logical thing to understand is maybe they could be the 24 elders.

Once the 24 high priest had died,

How can God make a promise that these priest will be a minister unto him forever? unless he raised them up at the resurrection.

In Isaiah66 the Lord returns the Levites

In revelation the 24 elders are in the presence of God.

the angels are elders to whom?

ozell

[perigrini]

Hi perigrini

No
the angels were created and the scriptures let you know that they were created and they did not come from the dust of the earth as man did.

You can find the 4 beast and the angels in the old testament and in the new testament.

The 24 elders don't show up until revelation . No where else.

I'm not really suggesting angels were humans, I'm just pointing out that the logic that because the elders are in the presence of God then they must be humans is flawed.

It appears you've revised this to say that if they appear in the presence of God AND their origin isn't explicitly described elsewhere then they must be humans. This is neither a strong argument or a logical one.

There are plenty of origins that are not described in scripture, such as Melchizedek.

In the old testament the only being that can be considered in the throne room of God is

Gabriel, because he said I stand in the presence of God.
The 7 spirits of God for the are his eyes through out the earth
The 4 beast for they transport the Lord where ever he wants to go.
Then you have the rainbow from Noah day.

These are the only beings that you will find in the old testament traveling with the Lord.

Oh yes Micheal may be in there somewhere.

I believe there are seriphim and cheribum as well if memory serves, and again, to apply the logic that their creation is not described elsewhere and that they are in God's presence then are we to conclude that they are humans as well?
I think not.

What is it that people insist on claiming they know who the 24 elders are when the truth is scripture does not explicitly state so. Any claim to knowledge on this account brings the reliablity of the one making the claim in my eyes.

The son's of Aaron (the High preist) are the only men that can go into the sanctuary even into the holies of Holy. If only these men where allowed to go into the Holies of Holy and the Lord presence was there.
The logical thing to understand is maybe they could be the 24 elders.

Now you're down to "maybe" they could be the 24 elders. Yes, maybe they could be, and maybe they might not be. Should we build doctrines on an unfounded and unsupportable assuption? I'd advise against it.

Maybe the 24 elders are another of God's created beings that attend to him. There are others that do so and no one claims they are humans.

I realize you're suggesting they might be 24 OT individuals. What is sometimes claimed (typically by the pretrib camp) is that they are 12 from the OT and the 12 apostles. What is funny about that is that John is the one witnessing this event, and if he's also one of the elders he's watching then that would be pretty odd to see himself in heaven in a vision prior to his own death. Perhaps it was a clone of John...I don't know how pretribbers handle that, none ever seem to bother to respond to my pointing that out.

How can God make a promise that these priest will be a minister unto him forever? unless he raised them up at the resurrection.

Is the only way the priests can get to heaven is as the 24 elders? I'd say they are raised up at the resurrection...and if they remain in the grave until then, then how are they throwing crowns they haven't been given yet before the Lord?

I haven't seen a rational, compelling argument made to show they are humans.

As for myself, I don't know who they are...I'll stick with what we know about them from scripture...which isn't enough to build anything based upon their identities.

And if God doesn't make a point of identifying them, then I suspect there are much more important things we should focus on beyond idle speculation.

Blessings,

perigrini

[crmann]

Good morning Peri...

Is the only way the priests can get to heaven is as the 24 elders? I'd say they are raised up at the resurrection...and if they remain in the grave until then, then how are they throwing crowns they haven't been given yet before the Lord?

There is a belief that the Old Testament Saints came out of the grave at the same time as the Messiah and were raptured at the same time as Jesus. Matt.27:52-53 [acc. The Archko Volume] This is called the 2nd First Fruits. And, of course we do know that many graves were opened and those risen walked about, but we are never told what happened to them or what they did after that. A friend of mine thinks they witnessed to many of the Jewish leaders, which is why there were so many Jewish believers after that. I think there are many things we haven't been told, which is why we must just take what the Bible says by faith. We don't have to understand everything.

Blessings,

Cleveland


       

[ozell]

Hi perigrini

I'm not really suggesting angels were humans, I'm just pointing out that the logic that because the elders are in the presence of God then they must be humans is flawed.

It appears you've revised this to say that if they appear in the presence of God AND their origin isn't explicitly described elsewhere then they must be humans. This is neither a strong argument or a logical one.

There are plenty of origins that are not described in scripture, such as Melchizedek

We know that the Father, Jesus and angels are not flesh and blood because flesh and blood can't inherit heaven.

1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

We know that there are different FLESH in this world given by God.

We also know that there are only natural bodies and spiritual bodies.

1Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

38: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39: All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

42: So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45: And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46: Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47: The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48: As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

so is the resurrection from the dead from a natural body to a spiritual body.

EXAMPLE

Jn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

WHY:

Mk 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10: And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11: And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

When must this happen?

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

so the high priest must be in the grave until there change come.

Job 14:12: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

13: O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Jn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jesus said out of his own mouth that no man is in heaven.

Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The 24 elders have to come after the 1st resurrection

Now you're down to "maybe" they could be the 24 elders. Yes, maybe they could be, and maybe they might not be. Should we build doctrines on an unfounded and unsupportable assuption? I'd advise against it.

Maybe the 24 elders are another of God's created beings that attend to him. There are others that do so and no one claims they are humans.

I realize you're suggesting they might be 24 OT individuals. What is sometimes claimed (typically by the pretrib camp) is that they are 12 from the OT and the 12 apostles. What is funny about that is that John is the one witnessing this event, and if he's also one of the elders he's watching then that would be pretty odd to see himself in heaven in a vision prior to his own death. Perhaps it was a clone of John...I don't know how pretribbers handle that, none ever seem to bother to respond to my pointing that out.

I'm not a pre tribber what ever that is. I'm a servant of the Most high God. John is dead. He was shown a vision on Patmos and he was told to write what he saw. John is dead. Jesus told us what john and the other apostles jobs will be.

Mt 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Lk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Let me go on record as saying that the 24 elders are the son's of Aaron.

these guys will be priest forever doing the service of God in his sanctuary.
I have to logically understand that for these guys to have this Job function, forever, its logically understandable that they have to raised from the dead to do the service of the Lord in his house. The Lord house is not here yet. It will be built when he return and these high priest which number 24 must be in this house.

Is the only way the priests can get to heaven is as the 24 elders? I'd say they are raised up at the resurrection...and if they remain in the grave until then, then how are they throwing crowns they haven't been given yet before the Lord?

I haven't seen a rational, compelling argument made to show they are humans.

As for myself, I don't know who they are...I'll stick with what we know about them from scripture...which isn't enough to build anything based upon their identities.

And if God doesn't make a point of identifying them, then I suspect there are much more important things we should focus on beyond idle speculation

Hey, call it whatever you may.

The facts are that the 12 apostles will judge the 12 tribes
David will be king over Israel
Joshua (Aaron's son) will be high priest.
Zerrubbal will build the Lord's house.
Solomon said he would be a door keeper to get into God's kingdom.

all these people are dead yet they were made a promise by God.

Always keep in mind its in this book and since its in the bible it is for us to know. If the Lord don't want us to know he will tell you. He told Daniel to close the book it not for his time. He told John don't write about the 7 thunders its not for us to know. But he also sais that he will reveal to his people.

I'll ride with the Lord because he made a promise to us all.

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

[crmann]

I'm here again, Ozell..

I tend to agree with you that these Elders are old testament saints.

How would you address the following which I found on the internet?

And just to let you know, I am not pre trib.

Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads

Much speculation has arisen as to who these twenty-four elders are: (1) a leader from each of the 12 tribes of Israel plus each of the 12 apostles, (2) twenty-four godly men from throughout biblical history and, (3) a special class of angels.

Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The men and women of corporate national Israel are not raptured. The twelve apostles will serve as the judges of Israel during the Millennium. According to the Lord's promise, they are to sit on earthly thrones. In addition, John the Revelator is also John the Apostle. Did he see himself around the throne? Did he fail to recognize the other apostles? The text does not read twelve plus twelve; it speaks of twenty-four thrones. The twenty-four elders are not the tribal leaders of Israel and the twelve apostles.

Current established pre-tribulational models maintain that the Day of the Lord, and thus the Tribulation, begins with the breaking of the first seal. If this is the case, and the Church is raptured before the Tribulation, then it is understood that the Church must be found in heaven as Jesus prepares to open the seven-sealed scroll. The twenty-four elders, the men who John sees immediately after his vision begins in the fourth chapter of Revelation, are recognized as representative of the Church and as proof of the pre-tribulation rapture.

Here is how noted pre-trib scholar Arnold Fruchtenbaum explains it,
"The identity of these twenty-four elders has been much debated. Some take it to refer to celestial beings, while others take it to refer to and represent the church. While the text does not clearly state as to what these twenty-four elders refer, there are clues in the text by which their identity can be deduced. First, these elders are clothed with white garments which throughout the Revelation are symbols of salvation. Celestial beings before the throne of God do not need salvation for they were not lost to begin with. But these elders were at one time lost and at some point received salvation as is seen by their wearing of the white garments.

"The second clue is the fact that they are wearing crowns. These crowns are not diadem crowns worn by those who are royal by nature, which would have been the case had these been celestial beings. These crowns are the stephanos crowns, the crowns of an overcomer; the type of crown given as rewards to the members of the church at the Judgment Seat of Christ.”

"A third clue lies in their very title of elders. Nowhere else in Scripture is this term used to describe celestial or angelic beings. This term is used of humans in positions of authority either in the synagogue or church.”

"Hence, from these three clues, the twenty-four elders must represent the church saints. If this is true, then they provide further evidence for a pre-tribulation Rapture. The church is already in heaven in chapter four and five before the tribulation begins in chapter six." (The Footsteps of the Messiah, p.114).

“First, these elders are clothed with white garments which throughout the Revelation are symbols of salvation.” Are white garments exclusively symbolic of salvation?

John 20:12
and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

Acts 1:10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.

White is a symbol of purity or sinlessness. Holy angels are also clothed in white.

"The second clue is the fact that they are wearing crowns."

The second argument that can be made against Fruchtenbaum's reasoning is that stephanos crowns, which Fruchtenbaum calls "overcomer" crowns are not worn exclusively by "overcomers" or church saints. In Revelation 6:2 the rider on the white horse wears a stephanos crown, in Revelation 9:7 the demon-locusts from the pit wear stephanos crowns, and in Revelation 12:1, the woman, who represents Israel, also wears a stephanos crown. Clearly these crowns do not exclusively refer to Church saints.

"A third clue lies in their very title of elders. Nowhere else in Scripture is this term used to describe celestial or angelic beings. This term is used of humans in positions of authority either in the synagogue or church.” But where did this office of elder originate?

Exodus 25:9
Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you.

Hebrews 8:5
They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."[Exodus 25:40]

Everything in the earthly tabernacle was patterned after the preexisting heavenly Temple. Did this pattern only encompass the utensils and furnishings of the tabernacle?

1 Chronicles 24:1-4
These were the divisions of the sons of Aaron:
The sons of Aaron were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. But Nadab and Abihu died before their father did, and they had no sons; so Eleazar and Ithamar served as the priests. With the help of Zadok a descendant of Eleazar and Ahimelech a descendant of Ithamar, David separated them into divisions for their appointed order of ministering. A larger number of leaders were found among Eleazar's descendants than among Ithamar's, and they were divided accordingly: sixteen heads of families from Eleazar's descendants and eight heads of families from Ithamar's descendants.

After Moses received the Torah by the hand of God, his brother Aaron was ordained as High Priest. Aaron had four sons. His oldest sons, Nadab and Abihu, were struck dead for offering profane fire before the LORD. Nadab and Abihu had no sons of their own. Aaron's surviving sons, Eleazar and Ithamar, served as priests. They and their male descendants after them served as priests before the LORD from the time that Israel wandered in the wilderness until the time of King David. There were a total of twenty-four heads of families from the tribe of Levi during the days of King David's reign. The regulation of twenty-four courses of priests rotating to minister in the Tabernacle was established in the days when Solomon had the Temple constructed and continued to be observed until the Second Temple was destroyed by Rome in AD 70.

1 Chronicles: 24:19
This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the LORD, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their forefather Aaron, as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded him.

This appointed order of ministering by rotating among twenty-four priests was commanded by the LORD. When Aaron received the regulations concerning the duties of the Levites, he wrote them down. Generations later, during the time of King David, the tribe of Levi had grown to twenty-four clans. The heads of these tribes served as priests in the Temple according to God's commandment.

Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders.

The twenty-four courses of priests serving in the earthly Temple were patterned after the twenty-four priests who minister in the heavenly sanctuary.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

The promise for those who overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony is to sit on the Father's throne.

When the saints are glorified at the rapture, they will not be sitting on 24 thrones around the Father's throne, they will be sitting on the Father's throne.

Revelation 5:11
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.

1) The heavenly tabernacle was the pattern for the earthly. Therefore the 24 elders, who are a priestly class of angels, were the pattern for the Levitical rotation of priests.
2) Angels wear white garments and crowns symbolize authority and position.
3) Each heavenly particular of John's vision -- the throne, four living creatures, and millions of angels are interpreted as literal. Therefore, there is no biblical precept for spiritualizing the 24 elders as anything but 24 elders.

Around God's throne are four cherubim, twenty-four elders, and one hundred million angels. The twenty-four elders of Revelation are a priestly order of angels which served as a pattern for the priestly rotation who ministered in Solomon's Temple.

Exodus 25:17-19
"Make an atonement cover of pure gold-two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.

Everything associated with the earthly tabernacle was patterned after the heavenly sanctuary.

Revelation 4:7
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back.

The atonement cover or mercy seat was patterned after the heavenly throne.

The golden cherubim were patterened after the living creatures.

1 Chronicles 24:19
This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the LORD, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their forefather Aaron, as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded him.

The appointed order of ministering was pre (before) scribed (written down) by Aaron.

Who told Aaron to write down the order of ministering? The LORD, the God of Israel commanded him.

Where did the concept of 24 courses of Levitical priests ministering come from?

Hebrews 8:5
They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven.

Who served at a sanctuary that was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary?

The 24 courses of Levitical priests.

Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders.

The mercy seat was patterned after the Father's throne.
The golden cherubim were patterned after the living creatures.
The 24 courses of Levitical priests were patterned after the 24 elders.

There is a hierarchy of angels. There are angels, archangels, cherubim and seraphim. Each of these classes of angels have different functions. The cherubim surround the throne of the Almighty, the twenty-four elders surround the throne and the cherubim, and beyond the inner circle are a myriad of angels.

Obviously, the 24 elders do not offer up atonement offerings or sacrifices for sin. But their function is related to the earthly priesthood patterned after them.

The Hebrew word for priest is "kohen" whose etymological root is connected to the Hebew word "qarab." Qarab means, "draw near."

Since the 24 elders surround the throne, I would conjecture that they have a role related to the priesthood in being able to "draw near" to the throne of God just as Aaron's sons were able to draw near to the divine presence.

Numbers 16:8-10
Moses also said to Korah, "Now listen, you Levites! Isn't it enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself to do the work at the LORD's tabernacle and to stand before the community and minister to them? He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too.

Numbers 16:5
Then he said to Korah and all his followers: "In the morning the LORD will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him.

The three basic elements of the priesthood are furnished from the above verses. They are:

1. Being chosen or set apart by the LORD.
2. Being holy.
3. Being allowed to come near.

Obviously, the 24 elders meet these three criteria of the priesthood!

Revelation 4:1-2
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

John was called up to heaven. He was in the spirit. John then returned to earth to write down all that he had seen and heard. The twenty-four elders he witnessed are not glorified saints but a class of priestly angels. Therefore, there is no evidence of a pre-trib rapture of the church in Revelation chapters four or five.

[ozell]

Hi crman

Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads

They must get the crown @ Jesus apearing. They were judged at his apearing notice it was laid up for them and given to them @ his appearing

2Tm 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Jms 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1Pt 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

First, these elders are clothed with white garments which throughout the Revelation are symbols of salvation.” Are white garments exclusively symbolic of salvation?

Yes; you made it! you defeated this fleshly body we dwell in. you have taken off the natural body and put on a spiritual body like Jesus and Enoch.

Rv 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.[/b]

5: [b]He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Salvation or to be saved is something you have to obtain which is only revealed in the end time @ Jesus coming. You don't have it until Jesus returns you can only hope for it and as long as you are in this frlesh you have to endure all things in order to obtain it.


Ps 3:8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Micah 7:7 Therefore I will look unto the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

1Pt 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

2Tm 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

1Thes 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

I would like to clear up something about this throne issue. Jesus has a throne @ the right hand of the Father. He has his own throne. The father has a throne also. His own Throne. When Jesus returns He will sit on a throne on earth. While Jesus is ruling this earth for 1000 years the Father is still in Heaven sitting on His throne in Heaven. These 24 elders will be before Jesus on earth while he is on His throne. Jesus was promised to sit on the throne of David. David throne was not in heaven but on earth in Jerusalem.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

So when the Lord made the promise to us about sitting on his throne itis his thone in his kingdom not the Father's. The father will not come to this earth until 1000 years later. so all this is happening in Jesus Kingdom his 1000 year rule.

Rv 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

"A third clue lies in their very title of elders. Nowhere else in Scripture is this term used to describe celestial or angelic beings. This term is used of humans in positions of authority either in the synagogue or church.” But where did this office of elder originate?

the bible do not support any angel being a elder. I believe the greek meaning for elder has to do with the pastoring, ministering, priest. I'm not into the greek meaning of words. That is I speak english and its good enough for me. Take a look at the greek meaning of Elder and it will open your understanding on why the priest are called elders.

Everything in the earthly tabernacle was patterned after the preexisting heavenly Temple. Did this pattern only encompass the utensils and furnishings of the tabernacle?

It includes a whole lot more. the Israelites , Jerusalem, where to be a prototype of things to come. What the Lord told Moses to do here on earth is what is in heaven. Remember this is coming down from heaven(perfection) John the baptist name, Jesus name, Isaac, even Ishmael, these names camed down from heaven. Jesus was trying to set up his will on earth as it is in heaven. but you know this man. .

Mt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

I will answer later I hope this help some.

ozell

[ozell]

Hi Crmann

Obviously, the 24 elders meet these three criteria of the priesthood!

Yes,

take a little time and read about the Leviticus priesthood.
The hih priest was the ony men that can go into the hoies of holy before the veil in the temple.

That is why when we read in Matthew concerning the veil of the temple being rent from top to bottom this was the end of animal sacrifice ending the Leviticus priesthood.


why did it rent? God is not a vain God. why have this verse here if it means nothing?

Mt 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mk 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Lk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

this preachers must be teaching the people that when we get in God's Kingdom all we will be doing is flying around heaven. You can't find that in the bible.

What you do find is examples of former men/women in the flesh having been resurrected receiving a position in his kingdom

David is dead but he was promised to be king over Israel when Jesus return.

The Apostles are dead, but they were promised that they would judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

Joshua was promised high preisthood

Zerruabbal will build Jesus temple.

I had said solomon but it is actually David who said he would be a door keeper.

Ps 84:10 For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.

These are example of former men being told of there position in Jesus Kingdom

ozell

ozell

[crmann]

You have explained it well, Ozell.

Thank you. I will be putting this into my notes for later use.

Bless you.

Cleveland

[D4Christ]

crmann,

Thanks for your explanations of the elders. I have never noticed those verses before, especially Matthew 22:32.

I am the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacab. So, G-d is not the G-d of the dead, but of the living.

My bible's footnote states that if Abraham, Isaac, and Jacab, long dead, were not alive in the prescence of G-d, then G-d would have said, "I was the G-d of Abraham", etc.

That says to me some made it to heaven before the death of Christ. Jesus even promised the guy hanging next to Him on the cross that he would be in paradise that day...which says to me that this guy did not have to wait until the 2nd coming to enter Heaven.


This is cool...G-d is awesome and cannot be limited by our limited imaginations.

[ozell]

That says to me some made it to heaven before the death of Christ. Jesus even promised the guy hanging next to Him on the cross that he would be in paradise that day...which says to me that this guy did not have to wait until the 2nd coming to enter Heaven.

Hi D4Christ

All over the bible the Lord in one verse can take you from the past, to the present clear into the future.

Rev12v1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: Go to Genesis 37 and you will see that this is Past this is the 12 tribes, Jacob and Leah .

2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. (Go to Luke1 this can be Jesus or Israel)

3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. This is PAST Present and future/ the ten horns is the EU

4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Herod, Rome,

5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
JESUS

6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
The church in the future

7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Past

when reading the bible we have to very careful on time periods.

ALSO
Jesus said this while he was on the earth in the flesh, this is the Jesus who came down from heaven and he should know who is up there in Heaven.

Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The 24 elders can't be there or maybe Jesus lied, but we know Jesus can't lie, then since he said no man can go then theremust not be a man there even the 24 elders.

ozell

[D4Christ]

Hi ozell,

Thanks for the verses. I am aware that bible verses can easily pass from past, present and into the future. But for me, at least, the verse still stands as significant because Christ clearly referred to 3 prophets, known to have been long dead, as alive. The only way a dead person can be counted as among the living that I know of is if they are in G-d's presecence.

Also you said,

7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Past

I am not sure I agree. I would place this in the future event category because when this event takes place the heavens rejoice becasue Satan is kicked out, but look at what it says several verses later: Rev. 12 (amplified)

12Therefore be glad (exult), O heavens and you that dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in fierce anger (fury), because he knows that he has [only] a short time [left]!

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast down to the earth, he went in pursuit of the woman who had given birth to the male Child.

14 But the woman was supplied with the two wings of a giant eagle, so that she might fly from the presence of the serpent into the desert (wilderness), to the retreat where she is to be kept safe and fed for a time, and times, and half a time (three and one-half years, or 1,260 days).

15Then out of his mouth the serpent spouted forth water like a flood after the woman, that she might be carried off with the torrent.

16But the earth came to the rescue of the woman, and the ground opened its mouth and swallowed up the stream of water which the dragon had spouted from his mouth.

17So then the dragon was furious (enraged) at the woman, and he went away to wage war on the remainder of her descendants--[on those] who obey God's commandments and who have the testimony of Jesus Christ [and adhere to it and bear witness to Him].

We know from other scriptures that Satan wages war on the saints of G-d during the 2nd half of Daniel's week. The AC is said to be imbued with satanic strength and devastate G-d's people (Daniel 8:24-25).

Also, if you notice, the above verses support that notion that the defilement of the temple, as foretold in Daniel, starts persecution becasue Israel flees and is protected in the desert for 1,260 days...the length of the 2nd half of the 70th week.

A battle was fought in heaven, not the Heaven where G-d lives tbut the cosmic heavens. (Check Strong's for clarification...if I did not explain too well) For the 1st time Satan, the prince of the air, is literally on earth with us...and he is upset.

So, I see verse 7 as a future event that will play out in the 70th week. I do not know if you are pretrib but I know that my prewrath belief has helped me study and work out many of the timeline issues some people have witih Revelation and Daniel.

One last question for ya...was Christ lying when He told the thief ( or was it the robber?) on the cross that he would enter paradise (Heaven) with Christ when they died...presumably the same day?

Thanks for the response.

[ozell]

Hi D4Christ

Thankyou, and all that respond, on having friendly dialogue even though we disagree, we continue to seek God's wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

One last question for ya...was Christ lying when He told the thief ( or was it the robber?) on the cross that he would enter paradise (Heaven) with Christ when they died...presumably the same day

?

as for the above Question we still have to go back to what Jesus said when people put anyone in heaven before its time.

This verse cannot be ignored. Its straight from the mouth of our Lord.

Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Lord made a promise to the thief concerning paradise that day, that he(the thief) would get there. It is not that the thief ascended up to paradise that day as commonly taught. What the preachers teach is that the thief beat the Lord to heaven, if this is the case then the thief should be the firstborn from the dead or at the least he was born from the dead before Jesus.

Jesus did not ascend to the father until later

Jn 20v1: The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, If the 24 elders, Moses, Elijah, Enoch or a thief on a cross died and rose to life forever how can Jesus be the firstborn from the dead? It don't make sense.

Ps 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The thief cannot have beaten the Lord to paradise. Paul made it very clear in Hebrews. Remember there was not a new testament so Paul spoke mostly on the old testament warriors/saints/servants, when he made this statement.

Heb 11:39: And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The thief was given a promise by the Lord, the promise is to be with him in paradise. the promise is eternal life. In order to be with the Lord in paradise or obtain eternat life, the thief will have to wait until we get it also. In other words we all get it together.

another way Paul put it is this

2Tm 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

The thief was Judged by the Lord as was the apostles, David and Joshua, they were given their positions in the kingdom of God. but they don't get that promise that position until Jesus appears and set up his kingdom. These were found worthy before the the Lord appeared a second time. But they have to wait until he appear which is the 1st resurrection.

1Thes 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Ps 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

ozell

[hirutbuddy]

nobody has been resurrected except Jesus. the souls of the 24 elders and Abraham, all the rest are in heaven awaiting their new bodies. remember the story Jesus told about the poor man in heaven and the the rich man in hell asking for water. flesh and blood cannot enter heaven. ditto.

[D4Christ]

nobody has been resurrected except Jesus. the souls of the 24 elders and Abraham, all the rest are in heaven awaiting their new bodies. remember the story Jesus told about the poor man in heaven and the the rich man in hell asking for water. flesh and blood cannot enter heaven. ditto.

Hi there,

So are you saying that there are elders, (the prophets) in heaven, but they are waiting on their new resurrected bodies? Are they in heaven like John was when he wrote the book of Revelation, unresurrected without his new "changed" body but still in Heaven nevertheless as he got a tour of things to come?

Interesting....do you have any applicable scriptures. Thanks!

ps. thanks for the verses ozell.

[hirutbuddy]

1After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

John was experiencing a vision, he was not in heaven. The 24 elders are souls. Of course we still don't know how Enoc and Elijah entered heaven or even if they did, since they never died. But the word says Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection. Jesus said no man has gone to heaven in a resurrected body. Paul said to be absent from the body(soul) is to be present with the Lord.

[perigrini]

Good (very early) morning...

I'm here again, Ozell..

I tend to agree with you that these Elders are old testament saints.

How would you address the following which I found on the internet?

And just to let you know, I am not pre trib.

Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads

Much speculation has arisen as to who these twenty-four elders are: (1) a leader from each of the 12 tribes of Israel plus each of the 12 apostles, (2) twenty-four godly men from throughout biblical history and, (3) a special class of angels.

Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The men and women of corporate national Israel are not raptured. The twelve apostles will serve as the judges of Israel during the Millennium. According to the Lord's promise, they are to sit on earthly thrones. In addition, John the Revelator is also John the Apostle. Did he see himself around the throne? Did he fail to recognize the other apostles? The text does not read twelve plus twelve; it speaks of twenty-four thrones. The twenty-four elders are not the tribal leaders of Israel and the twelve apostles.

Current established pre-tribulational models maintain that the Day of the Lord, and thus the Tribulation, begins with the breaking of the first seal. If this is the case, and the Church is raptured before the Tribulation, then it is understood that the Church must be found in heaven as Jesus prepares to open the seven-sealed scroll. The twenty-four elders, the men who John sees immediately after his vision begins in the fourth chapter of Revelation, are recognized as representative of the Church and as proof of the pre-tribulation rapture.

Here is how noted pre-trib scholar Arnold Fruchtenbaum explains it,
"The identity of these twenty-four elders has been much debated. Some take it to refer to celestial beings, while others take it to refer to and represent the church. While the text does not clearly state as to what these twenty-four elders refer, there are clues in the text by which their identity can be deduced. First, these elders are clothed with white garments which throughout the Revelation are symbols of salvation. Celestial beings before the throne of God do not need salvation for they were not lost to begin with. But these elders were at one time lost and at some point received salvation as is seen by their wearing of the white garments.

"The second clue is the fact that they are wearing crowns. These crowns are not diadem crowns worn by those who are royal by nature, which would have been the case had these been celestial beings. These crowns are the stephanos crowns, the crowns of an overcomer; the type of crown given as rewards to the members of the church at the Judgment Seat of Christ.”

"A third clue lies in their very title of elders. Nowhere else in Scripture is this term used to describe celestial or angelic beings. This term is used of humans in positions of authority either in the synagogue or church.”

"Hence, from these three clues, the twenty-four elders must represent the church saints. If this is true, then they provide further evidence for a pre-tribulation Rapture. The church is already in heaven in chapter four and five before the tribulation begins in chapter six." (The Footsteps of the Messiah, p.114).

“First, these elders are clothed with white garments which throughout the Revelation are symbols of salvation.” Are white garments exclusively symbolic of salvation?

John 20:12
and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

Acts 1:10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.

White is a symbol of purity or sinlessness. Holy angels are also clothed in white.

"The second clue is the fact that they are wearing crowns."

The second argument that can be made against Fruchtenbaum's reasoning is that stephanos crowns, which Fruchtenbaum calls "overcomer" crowns are not worn exclusively by "overcomers" or church saints. In Revelation 6:2 the rider on the white horse wears a stephanos crown, in Revelation 9:7 the demon-locusts from the pit wear stephanos crowns, and in Revelation 12:1, the woman, who represents Israel, also wears a stephanos crown. Clearly these crowns do not exclusively refer to Church saints.

"A third clue lies in their very title of elders. Nowhere else in Scripture is this term used to describe celestial or angelic beings. This term is used of humans in positions of authority either in the synagogue or church.” But where did this office of elder originate?

Exodus 25:9
Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you.

Hebrews 8:5
They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."[Exodus 25:40]

Everything in the earthly tabernacle was patterned after the preexisting heavenly Temple. Did this pattern only encompass the utensils and furnishings of the tabernacle?

1 Chronicles 24:1-4
These were the divisions of the sons of Aaron:
The sons of Aaron were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. But Nadab and Abihu died before their father did, and they had no sons; so Eleazar and Ithamar served as the priests. With the help of Zadok a descendant of Eleazar and Ahimelech a descendant of Ithamar, David separated them into divisions for their appointed order of ministering. A larger number of leaders were found among Eleazar's descendants than among Ithamar's, and they were divided accordingly: sixteen heads of families from Eleazar's descendants and eight heads of families from Ithamar's descendants.

After Moses received the Torah by the hand of God, his brother Aaron was ordained as High Priest. Aaron had four sons. His oldest sons, Nadab and Abihu, were struck dead for offering profane fire before the LORD. Nadab and Abihu had no sons of their own. Aaron's surviving sons, Eleazar and Ithamar, served as priests. They and their male descendants after them served as priests before the LORD from the time that Israel wandered in the wilderness until the time of King David. There were a total of twenty-four heads of families from the tribe of Levi during the days of King David's reign. The regulation of twenty-four courses of priests rotating to minister in the Tabernacle was established in the days when Solomon had the Temple constructed and continued to be observed until the Second Temple was destroyed by Rome in AD 70.

1 Chronicles: 24:19
This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the LORD, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their forefather Aaron, as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded him.

This appointed order of ministering by rotating among twenty-four priests was commanded by the LORD. When Aaron received the regulations concerning the duties of the Levites, he wrote them down. Generations later, during the time of King David, the tribe of Levi had grown to twenty-four clans. The heads of these tribes served as priests in the Temple according to God's commandment.

Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders.

The twenty-four courses of priests serving in the earthly Temple were patterned after the twenty-four priests who minister in the heavenly sanctuary.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

The promise for those who overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony is to sit on the Father's throne.

When the saints are glorified at the rapture, they will not be sitting on 24 thrones around the Father's throne, they will be sitting on the Father's throne.

Revelation 5:11
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.

1) The heavenly tabernacle was the pattern for the earthly. Therefore the 24 elders, who are a priestly class of angels, were the pattern for the Levitical rotation of priests.
2) Angels wear white garments and crowns symbolize authority and position.
3) Each heavenly particular of John's vision -- the throne, four living creatures, and millions of angels are interpreted as literal. Therefore, there is no biblical precept for spiritualizing the 24 elders as anything but 24 elders.

Around God's throne are four cherubim, twenty-four elders, and one hundred million angels. The twenty-four elders of Revelation are a priestly order of angels which served as a pattern for the priestly rotation who ministered in Solomon's Temple.

Exodus 25:17-19
"Make an atonement cover of pure gold-two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.

Everything associated with the earthly tabernacle was patterned after the heavenly sanctuary.

Revelation 4:7
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back.

The atonement cover or mercy seat was patterned after the heavenly throne.

The golden cherubim were patterened after the living creatures.

1 Chronicles 24:19
This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the LORD, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their forefather Aaron, as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded him.

The appointed order of ministering was pre (before) scribed (written down) by Aaron.

Who told Aaron to write down the order of ministering? The LORD, the God of Israel commanded him.

Where did the concept of 24 courses of Levitical priests ministering come from?

Hebrews 8:5
They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven.

Who served at a sanctuary that was a copy of the heavenly sanctuary?

The 24 courses of Levitical priests.

Revelation 4:4
Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders.

The mercy seat was patterned after the Father's throne.
The golden cherubim were patterned after the living creatures.
The 24 courses of Levitical priests were patterned after the 24 elders.

There is a hierarchy of angels. There are angels, archangels, cherubim and seraphim. Each of these classes of angels have different functions. The cherubim surround the throne of the Almighty, the twenty-four elders surround the throne and the cherubim, and beyond the inner circle are a myriad of angels.

Obviously, the 24 elders do not offer up atonement offerings or sacrifices for sin. But their function is related to the earthly priesthood patterned after them.

The Hebrew word for priest is "kohen" whose etymological root is connected to the Hebew word "qarab." Qarab means, "draw near."

Since the 24 elders surround the throne, I would conjecture that they have a role related to the priesthood in being able to "draw near" to the throne of God just as Aaron's sons were able to draw near to the divine presence.

Numbers 16:8-10
Moses also said to Korah, "Now listen, you Levites! Isn't it enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself to do the work at the LORD's tabernacle and to stand before the community and minister to them? He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too.

Numbers 16:5
Then he said to Korah and all his followers: "In the morning the LORD will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him.

The three basic elements of the priesthood are furnished from the above verses. They are:

1. Being chosen or set apart by the LORD.
2. Being holy.
3. Being allowed to come near.

Obviously, the 24 elders meet these three criteria of the priesthood!

Revelation 4:1-2
After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

John was called up to heaven. He was in the spirit. John then returned to earth to write down all that he had seen and heard. The twenty-four elders he witnessed are not glorified saints but a class of priestly angels. Therefore, there is no evidence of a pre-trib rapture of the church in Revelation chapters four or five.

I was going to comment more specifically regarding Fruchtbaum's line of argument here, but it's so full of holes and shoddy scholarship that it's really not worth the effort.

He falls into numerous logic errors...it's really annoying and offensive to read so called "experts". My 11 yr old son makes more rational and logically consistant arguments.

Blessings,

p.

[perigrini]

Jesus said this while he was on the earth in the flesh, this is the Jesus who came down from heaven and he should know who is up there in Heaven.

Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The 24 elders can't be there or maybe Jesus lied, but we know Jesus can't lie, then since he said no man can go then theremust not be a man there even the 24 elders.

ozell

An interesting point that would argue against the 24 elders being human.

Blessings,

perigrini

[ozell]

hirutbuddy wrote:

nobody has been resurrected except Jesus. the souls of the 24 elders and Abraham, all the rest are in heaven awaiting their new bodies.

Hi hirutbuddy

You can't read that in the bible.

Are you referring to this verse below.

Rv 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This is symbollic,

Is it logical to think that all the souls in heaven are kept under a Altar for keep sake from Adam to the coming of Jesus.

White robes are given to everyone of them. If they are in heaven when they died, they should have had their white robes.

Whats even stranger is that they are told that they have to wait longer for their fellowservant to be killed. WOW! Not a natural death, the bible says to be killed, this is a violent death.
Take note these are saints dying, the book says fellowservant thses died for Jesus.

If they are in heaven why can't they come down and prevent their fellow servant from being killed?

Why can't these souls help that saints thats going thru this tribulation period.

ozell