What areas comprise the land of Canaan?

[OBXBob]

Just curious whether anyone has a map showing which areas today would have been considered the Land of Canaan in the Old Testament.

Thanks!!!

YBIC,

Bob

[Abiding in His Word]

Will either of these help?

[Abiding in His Word]

[Abiding in His Word]

[OBXBob]

Thanks Abiding! This is very helpful! I was thinking that present-day Israel only had a fraction of the land that they once did.

YBIC,

Bob

[Lazarus43]

Thanks Abiding! This is very helpful! I was thinking that present-day Israel only had a fraction of the land that they once did.

YBIC,

Bob

Promises fulfilled:

Joshua 21:43-45 (NASB)
Jos 21:43 So the LORD gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the LORD gave all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 Not one of the good promises which the LORD had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass.

As Joshua said:

Joshua 23:14-16 (NASB)
Jos 23:14 "Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the LORD your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed.
Jos 23:15 "It shall come about that just as all the good words which the LORD your God spoke to you have come upon you, so the LORD will bring upon you all the threats, until He has destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.
Jos 23:16 "When you transgress the covenant of the LORD your God, which He commanded you, and go and serve other gods and bow down to them, then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and you will perish quickly from off the good land which He has given you."

Both are now fulfilled prophecy.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[OBXBob]

So Laz,

Do you think the Jewish people have any right to the land known as Israel today?

YBIC,

Bob

[Lazarus43]

So Laz,

Do you think the Jewish people have any right to the land known as Israel today?

YBIC,

Bob

Bob,

I am not sure one way or the other. Since I have not yet gone through all the scriptures that might be relevant, I do not want to in any way be adament about a belief.

What would you do with the non-Jewish peoples now living inside the borders of the land called Israel? Many non-Jewish people whose ancestors lived in that land hundreds of years before modern Israel existed are still there and integrated even into the govenment.

Modern Israel's Judaism is described in an article by Jewish author Robert Wolfe

Today we have Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism, Humanist Judaism and who knows what else. The only point on which all these versions of Judaism agree so far as I am aware is that it is a good idea to celebrate the Jewish holidays. Humanist Judaism regards the concept of God as unnecessary, while Reconstructionist Judaism treats it as a metaphor for something or other. Conservative Judaism is generally supportive of the nation of Israel, while most of the other versions tend to the critical side. Orthodox Judaism equates virtue with performance of the mitzvot, while most of the others equate it with conformity to some kind of philosophic or ethical ideal.

In short, defining Judaism based on the doctrines of the Judaists is a hopeless task. I would propose a different method, which is to define Judaism based on the religion of the Jews.

"...those who sought to "force the end" were identified with the teachings of Kabbalah."

Anyone who has studied this religion in any depth can have no doubt as to what it was all about. It was about the expectation that if the Jews performed the mitzvot correctly, the Messiah would come and restore the Jews to the land of their birth. This was the faith which sustained the Jewish people during the long centuries of exile, segregation and persecution. If there was a difference among Jews, it was between those who passively awaited the coming of the Messiah and those who sought to "force the end" by actions intended to bring about the ingathering of the exiles even without divine intervention.

From the 13th century onwards, those who sought to "force the end" were identified with the teachings of Kabbalah. And central to Kabbalah was a text known as the "Zohar", which taught that only in the land of Israel could the religion of the Jews reach its full stature. Starting in the late 15th century in connection with the expulsion from Spain and Portugal and the rise of the Ottoman empire, literally tens of thousands of Kabbalists, most of them Sephardim, did in fact settle in the land of Israel in the "four holy cities" of Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias and Hebron. These Kabbalists were Zionists in all but name, and their Zionism was a direct expression of the religion of the Jews as they understood it.

"The only form of Zionism that could actually succeed was one which had entirely abandoned the expectation of miracles and relied solely on its own strength and capabilities."

However, the Zionist movement which actually succeeded in bringing about the ingathering of the exiles and the establishment of a Jewish state in the land of Israel was predominantly secular in character. Why was this? It was because the religious Zionists could not free themselves from the belief in miracles. The Kabbalists who settled in the land of Israel continuerd to await the coming of the Messiah once they were there. They failed to develop a realistic program for cultivating the land or defending themselves against Arab aggression because they expected God and the Messiah to solve these problems for them.

The only form of Zionism that could actually succeed was one which had entirely abandoned the expectation of miracles and relied solely on its own strength and capabilities. But the goals of the secular Zionists were at heart no different from those of the religious Zionists. Those goals were to create a Jewish state and society in the land of Israel that would serve both to rehabilitate the Jewish people and act as a light unto the nations. This was the program of the "Zohar" no less than it was the program of Ben Gurion, and Ben Gurion repeatedly described this program as "Messianic" in his writings and speeches.

"Most Hasidim, who constitute the dominant element among Orthodox Jews today, regard the state of Israel as an illegitimate entity precisely because it was not brought into being by miracles."

Orthodox Judaism today also claims to perpetuate the Messianic tradition, but this claim has become highly suspect. Most Hasidim, who constitute the dominant element among Orthodox Jews today, regard the state of Israel as an illegitimate entity precisely because it was not brought into being by miracles. They say that they are still awaiting the coming of the Messiah and in the meanwhile claim to owe no real allegiance to the state of Israel. In short, their Messianism has no practical result, while the secular Messianism which did have a practical result they scorn and disdain.

Most of the other Judaists have explicitly repudiated the Messianic tradition. In particular, Reform Judaism, Reconstructionist Judaism and Humanist Judaism all say that they do not believe in the coming of the Messiah and do not regard the birth of the state of Israel as the culmination of Jewish history. They say that the true mission of the Jews is to spread some kind of vague philosophic ideal of goodness and mercy around the world. This doctrine does not have much in common with the religion of the Jews from which secular Zionism emerged. It must be Judaism, since they call it that, but it is a Judaism which faces an uncertain future since it does not greatly differ from many other religious and philosophic teachings.

Who am I to disagree with most Hasidim?

All quotes are excerpts from the article "Zionism As Judaism" By Robert Wolfe which can be read at:
http://www.jewishmag.com/89mag/zionism/zionism.htm

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Salty Skipper]

Perhaps the Zionists and Hasidim will both win? We know that Israel will not succeed on their own...only when they turn to Jesus and He comes back to rule from His throne in Jerusalem.

[OBXBob]

Hello Laz,

Thanks for the reply.

You wrote:

"Most Hasidim, who constitute the dominant element among Orthodox Jews today, regard the state of Israel as an illegitimate entity precisely because it was not brought into being by miracles."

I totally disagree with this statement that was in the source you quoted.

Here are but a few verses that were prophecies about Israel becoming a nation again...fulfilled in 1948.

Keep in mind when reading some of these verses about how lush the nation of Israel will be that this area was basically a barren wasteland before Israel became a nation again. Today, Israel is the world's 4th largest producer of fruit.

Ezekiel 36:

1. "Son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel and say, `O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD.
2. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: The enemy said of you, "Aha! The ancient heights have become our possession." '
3. Therefore prophesy and say, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because they ravaged and hounded you from every side so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations and the object of people's malicious talk and slander,
4. therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Sovereign LORD: This is what the Sovereign LORD says to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, to the desolate ruins and the deserted towns that have been plundered and ridiculed by the rest of the nations around you--
5. this is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my burning zeal I have spoken against the rest of the nations, and against all Edom, for with glee and with malice in their hearts they made my land their own possession so that they might plunder its pastureland.'
6. Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I speak in my jealous wrath because you have suffered the scorn of the nations.
7. Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I swear with uplifted hand that the nations around you will also suffer scorn.
8. "`But you, O mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home.
9. I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown,
10. and I will multiply the number of people upon you, even the whole house of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.
11. I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
12. I will cause people, my people Israel, to walk upon you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.
13. "`This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because people say to you, "You devour men and deprive your nation of its children,"
14. therefore you will no longer devour men or make your nation childless, declares the Sovereign LORD.
15. No longer will I make you hear the taunts of the nations, and no longer will you suffer the scorn of the peoples or cause your nation to fall, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"
16. Again the word of the LORD came to me:
17. "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman's monthly uncleanness in my sight.
18. So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols.
19. I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions.
20. And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, `These are the LORD's people, and yet they had to leave his land.'
21. I had concern for my holy name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
22. "Therefore say to the house of Israel, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.
23. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
24. "`For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
25. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
26. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
27. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
28. You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.
29. I will save you from all your uncleanness. I will call for the grain and make it plentiful and will not bring famine upon you.
30. I will increase the fruit of the trees and the crops of the field, so that you will no longer suffer disgrace among the nations because of famine.
31. Then you will remember your evil ways and wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices.
32. I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!
33. "`This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt.
34. The desolate land will be cultivated instead of lying desolate in the sight of all who pass through it.
35. They will say, "This land that was laid waste has become like the garden of Eden; the cities that were lying in ruins, desolate and destroyed, are now fortified and inhabited."
36. Then the nations around you that remain will know that I the LORD have rebuilt what was destroyed and have replanted what was desolate. I the LORD have spoken, and I will do it.'
37. "This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Once again I will yield to the plea of the house of Israel and do this for them: I will make their people as numerous as sheep,
38. as numerous as the flocks for offerings at Jerusalem during her appointed feasts. So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the LORD."


AND...

Ezekiel 37:

9. Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'"
10. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army.
11. Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, `Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.'
12. Therefore prophesy and say to them: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel.
13. Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them.
14. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.'"
15. The word of the LORD came to me:
16. "Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, `Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.' Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, `Ephraim's stick, belonging to Joseph and all the house of Israel associated with him.'
17. Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
18. "When your countrymen ask you, `Won't you tell us what you mean by this?'
19. say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph--which is in Ephraim's hand--and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.'
20. Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on
21. and say to them, `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.
22. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.

AND...

Amos 9:14-15:

14. I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the LORD your God.

AND...

Micah:

8. Do not gloat over me, my enemy! Though I have fallen, I will rise. Though I sit in darkness, the LORD will be my light.
9. Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD's wrath, until he pleads my case and establishes my right. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.
10. Then my enemy will see it and will be covered with shame, she who said to me, "Where is the LORD your God?" My eyes will see her downfall; even now she will be trampled underfoot like mire in the streets.
11. The day for building your walls will come, the day for extending your boundaries.

AND...

Ezekiel 11:

14. The word of the LORD came to me:
15. "Son of man, your brothers--your brothers who are your blood relatives and the whole house of Israel--are those of whom the people of Jerusalem have said, `They are far away from the LORD; this land was given to us as our possession.'
16. "Therefore say: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Although I sent them far away among the nations and scattered them among the countries, yet for a little while I have been a sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.'
17. "Therefore say: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will gather you from the nations and bring you back from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you back the land of Israel again.'

YBIC,

Bob

[Abiding in His Word]

Who am I to disagree with most Hasidim?

Maybe a Christian who believes the Word of God?

The chapters Bob quoted in Ezekiel pretty much spell it out clearly, wouldn't you say?

[Mrs. B]

Isaiah......

[Mrs. B]

Isaiah 60:10......And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls....

and their kings shall minister unto thee:

for in my wrath I smote thee....But in my favour have I had mercy on thee....

11.....Therefore...thy gates shall be Open Continually.....they shall not be shut day nor night....that men may bring unto thee the Forces ( or wealth) of the Gentiles...and that their kINGS MAY BE BROUGHT....

(I believe the wealth is the Gospel.)

12.....For the nation and kingdom that will NOT serve thee shall perish....Yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted...


13.....The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee...the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my Sanctuary....

and I will Make the Place of my Feet Glorious.....

14.....The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee.....

and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet...and they shall call the...THE CITY OF THE LORD....THE ZION OF THE HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL.....

15......Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated....so that no man went through thee....I Will Make thee....An Eternal Excellency....a Joy of Many Generations.....

16.....Thou shalt also...suck the milk of the Gentiles...and shall suck the Breast of Kings...and thou shalt know that I the Lord am Thy Saviour and thy Redeemer...the Mighty One of Jacob.....

(the gentiles shall give the milk of the gospel....and bring them to salvation)

17......For brass I will bring Gold.....and for Iron I will bring Silver...and for wood brass...and for stones iron....

I will also make thy officers peace....and thine Exactors Righteousness...

18.....Violence shall no more be Heard In Thy Land......Wasting Nor destruction within thy Borders....but thou shalt call....THY WALLS...SALVATION.....AND THY GATES.....PRAISE.....


19.....The Sun shall be no more thy Light By Day....

Neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee....BUT the Lord shall be unto thee an Everlasting Light....and Thy God thy Glory......


20....The Sun shall no more go down...neither shall thy moon withdraw itself....

For the Lord Shall be Thine Everlasting Light....and The Days of thy Mourning Shall be Ended.....


21......Thy People also...Shall be All Righteous...They shall Inherit the Land for Ever.....The Branch of MY Planting....The Work of My Hands...that I May Be Glorified.....


22.....A Little One shall become a thousand....and a small one a Strong Nation...I the Lord will Hasten it in HIS TIME....


61:1....THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD GOD IS UPON ME.....BECAUSE

LUKE....4:18...Jesus said.....The Spirit of the Lord is upon me....because he hath ANOINTED ME....TO Preach the Gospel to the poor.....he hath sent me to Heal the Brokenhearted....to Preach Deliverance to the Captives....and Recovering of Sight to the Blind to set at Liberty Them that Are Bruised.....

19......To Preach the Acceptable Year of the Lord.....

20....And He closed the Book...and gave it to the Minister, and sat down......

21.....And He Began to say unto them.....THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS.....

Jesus is the Fulfilment......and New Jersulam is the City......when all this is fulfilled.....or finished.





bb

[Lazarus43]

Perhaps the Zionists and Hasidim will both win? We know that Israel will not succeed on their own...only when they turn to Jesus and He comes back to rule from His throne in Jerusalem.

It is not that Orthodox Jewish Hasidim are not Zionists. They are what might be called religious Zionists. They regard modern Israel as a secular entity, which it is. Again quoting from the article, "They say that they are still awaiting the coming of the Messiah and in the meanwhile claim to owe no real allegiance to the state of Israel."

Again, quoting from the article, "The only form of Zionism that could actually succeed was one which had entirely abandoned the expectation of miracles and relied solely on its own strength and capabilities. But the goals of the secular Zionists were at heart no different from those of the religious Zionists. Those goals were to create a Jewish state and society in the land of Israel that would serve both to rehabilitate the Jewish people and act as a light unto the nations."

Secular Zionism is what religious Jewish Zionists say created modern Israel. I do not know if they are right. However, if religious Jewish Zionists are correct, maybe Christian Zionists have an incorrect view of modern Israel.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Lazarus43]

Hello Laz,

Thanks for the reply.

You wrote:

"Most Hasidim, who constitute the dominant element among Orthodox Jews today, regard the state of Israel as an illegitimate entity precisely because it was not brought into being by miracles."

I totally disagree with this statement that was in the source you quoted.

Here are but a few verses that were prophecies about Israel becoming a nation again...fulfilled in 1948.

Keep in mind when reading some of these verses about how lush the nation of Israel will be that this area was basically a barren wasteland before Israel became a nation again. Today, Israel is the world's 4th largest producer of fruit.

Bob,

I do not have time right now to study all the scripture passages you posted, but I will look at them in context when I have more time.

I was unable to find a source that agreed with your statement, "Today, Israel is the world's 4th largest producer of fruit." Do you have a source?

I have no doubt that Israel is doing a good job with agriculture. However, it does not seem to be a supernatural prosperity. Technologies like drip irrigation are the key they have used to "make the desert bloom."

This seems to be turning into something that might not belong in a forum that is designated "the place to ask general questions not prophecy related." I apologize for turning it into something for which it was not meant to be used. Perhaps I should stop commenting here.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Lazarus43]

Who am I to disagree with most Hasidim?

Maybe a Christian who believes the Word of God?

The chapters Bob quoted in Ezekiel pretty much spell it out clearly, wouldn't you say?

I believe the Word of God. However, I no longer believe many interpretations of Scripture which first began to be widely taught through the efforts of dispensational teachers like John N. Darby. I believe it is worth taking the time to examine the Scriptures to see if what I am told is true.

Blessings,
Lazarus43

[Lazarus43]

Bob,

Since you disagree with what the quoted source says most Hasidim Orthodox Jews believe, what do you say most Hasidim believe about modern Israel?

Also, I ask again if you have a source for the statement, "Today, Israel is the world's 4th largest producer of fruit." I haven't found a source that agrees with you.
*************************************************************
It should be noted that all the passages you quoted are from a time before the seventy sevens of years prophecy given to Daniel began to be fulfilled. Israel's people had to be removed from the land until their return at the beginning of the 70 sevens of years.

Israel's people's 70 years of exile were said to be the number of years of rest that the land had not been given.

The first reference you gave is Ezekiel 36:1-38. Here is a little of that passage which is addressed to the land from which the people were removed because they had not given it the one year in seven rest God had proclaimed for it:

Ezekiel 36:6-15
6. Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys: `This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I speak in my jealous wrath because you have suffered the scorn of the nations.
7. Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I swear with uplifted hand that the nations around you will also suffer scorn.
8. "`But you, O mountains of Israel, will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel, for they will soon come home.
9. I am concerned for you and will look on you with favor; you will be plowed and sown,
10. and I will multiply the number of people upon you, even the whole house of Israel. The towns will be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.
11. I will increase the number of men and animals upon you, and they will be fruitful and become numerous. I will settle people on you as in the past and will make you prosper more than before. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
12. I will cause people, my people Israel, to walk upon you. They will possess you, and you will be their inheritance; you will never again deprive them of their children.
13. "`This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Because people say to you, "You devour men and deprive your nation of its children,"
14. therefore you will no longer devour men or make your nation childless, declares the Sovereign LORD.
15. No longer will I make you hear the taunts of the nations, and no longer will you suffer the scorn of the peoples or cause your nation to fall, declares the Sovereign LORD.'"
*Red coloring mine.

This whole section of the chapter is addressed to the land which was left empty and unproductive when the people were removed so it could rest. The land is told that God's people, Israel will "soon come home." (verse 8). It makes sense that this "soon" coming home would be the coming home "soon" only a few years later at the people's return when Daniel's 70 sevens of years prophecy began to be fulfilled. A distant future coming home thousands of years later does not fit this prophecy. It is also made clear in verses 13-15 that the land will not again be the cause of the people having to be removed from it.

I do not have time right now to continue, but it is probable that prophecies about a return to the land made before Daniel's 70 sevens of years prophecy were fulfilled at the same time as that prophecy which also spoke of a return of the people to the land of Israel. The first coming of Jesus Christ may also be prophesied in some of those other prophecies.

Blessings,
Lazarus43