Heresy Touters Saved?

[mizbayakh]

If you are one of the people who stands by once saved always saved...do you believe the free-will view is a heresy? ...and therefore are the people who believe that not saved?

OR

Since you believe osas then it doesn't really matter if a person's doctrine is off? ...considering at the time of being saved all sins - past/present and future are forgiven

I'm not trying to pick a fight...I'm really trying to understand.

When I was saved I had no idea there was all this hub-bub about Calvinism vs. Arminiasm (sp?)...it wasn't a few years until I even came across those arguments.
I lean toward the free will (tho I don't consider myself to be a strong opponent on absolutely one side...I see so much deeper into the shallow discussions by men - God's omniscience is something we will never be able to grasp and that plays in)
SO...my osas friends....if I'm holding onto a heretical doctrine...in your mind (and feel free to speak it to me)...am I not really saved (to the best of your discernment)?

Feel free to speak on this however is most comfortable...I really want to know what the thoughts behind this are.

[mizbayakh]

You know what...I understand this topic may be too divisive and frought with landmines for open discussion.
PLEASE though, if you have thoughts on this would you PM me?
If you have scriptural reason to believe those that hold a false teaching will be going to hell...I at least want to hear your plea for saving souls destined for hell.
It is not loving, nor Christian to allow anyone to spend eternity in torment if you really know what you know to be true.

If you want to just tell me and for me not to respond - I welcome that.

I am so tired of the bickering about this...if you KNOW what you believe to be true than you have to tell. I, as a Christian, do not want to be deceived...so I implore you to send me a note.

On the other hand, if you believe it's not a salvation issue...you can say that too.

[OBXBob]

Hello mizbayakh,

If you have scriptural reason to believe those that hold a false teaching will be going to hell...I at least want to hear your plea for saving souls destined for hell.

Could you give a specific example of what false teaching you're referencing?

Blessings,

Bob

[quiverfullmom]

You can go to freemypeople.com for an excellent article on predestination vs. freewill. Of course I am a little biased since my brother wrote it. Very well backed up by tons of scripture.

[Nocturne]

If you are one of the people who stands by once saved always saved...do you believe the free-will view is a heresy? ...and therefore are the people who believe that not saved?

I believe that the clearest doctrine in the bible, is the one of eternal security. I don't relate that to free will though.

I believe that people have free will completely. I don't think that God is out to get anyone, I think that he wants everyone to be saved.

I believe that once God has 'sealed' someone with His Holy Spirit, that person is sealed eternally. Believing that salvation can be 'lost' or 'given back' I believe, is an incorrect doctrine without much biblical proof. It focuses on the self instead of God, focuses on your works instead of Christ's, contradicts the bible (unscriptural), and frankly, I think it completely undermines the work of Christ on the cross.

I don't see why someone cant believe in eternal security and at the same time believe in free will.

OR
Since you believe osas then it doesn't really matter if a person's doctrine is off? ...considering at the time of being saved all sins - past/present and future are forgiven

I understand what you are saying here, but it's also kind of a loaded question. Simply because you are (probably inadvertantly) implying that a person who believes in OSAS is 'doctrinally loose'.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that the doctrine of eternal security is one of the most clear, concise doctrines in all of scripture.

What I believe is that someone must have the 'foundational' doctrine about the person, work, and resurrection of Christ to be saved.

Can their doctrine be 'off' in other areas, yet they are still saved? I completely believe so. If you consider rapture timing a 'doctrine', the 2 out of the 3 popular views are wrong. Yet those people are still saved.

I think that if you pray and study, and pray some more, then God will lead you into correct doctrine.

[crmann]

Greeting, Mizbayakh...

I am proud to be able to discuss your question:

If you are one of the people who stands by once saved always saved...do you believe the free-will view is a heresy? ...and therefore are the people who believe that not saved?

OR

Since you believe osas then it doesn't really matter if a person's doctrine is off? ...considering at the time of being saved all sins - past/present and future are forgiven.

You know Mizbayakh, only Satan causes the truths of God’s Word to be divisive. Consider the following four verses of scripture. Not one of them have any strings attached once we believe on His name. He says believe on Him and we will be saved. That’s all.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


1 John 1:12 -13 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


There are going to be disagreements as to what the Bible teaches. However I believe that if there is one scripture which might question a belief we have, then we need to rethink our belief. Let me present two more scriptures to you.

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known. This verse not only talks about love, but also about our understanding of His Word. Until that time comes, we will not truly understand all the truths found in the Word.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. We are to study God’s Word. But study as we might, we will never come to know all there is to know of what the Bible teaches.

Even Peter was publicly reproved by Paul. (Gal 2:12), Peter was undermining the faith of some believers by withdrawing from the Gentiles and compelling them to live under Jewish law (2:13-14). It's interesting to note that Peter did not respond by complaining bitterly that Paul's public correction denigrated his ministry or caused a loss of support. In fact, as Peter reflects upon his beloved brother Paul's teachings he commends them for their wisdom and value to the church.

And then Peter rebuked Ananias and Sapphira. As a result, the early church was infused with a wholesome fear of God and His holiness. Examples are found continuously throughout the Scriptures that demonstrate the value of reproof for the conviction of sin and erroneous teaching which otherwise might have gone unheeded, leading to the destruction of the faith of some.

So you see, Mizbayakh... Peter, Ananias and Sapphira were saved even when they believed a false doctrine.

Mizbayakh, I trust that I have partially answered your question. What do you now think? Has this helped?

Your brother in Christ,

The old timer

[mizbayakh]

Thank you for your responses.

It gets me wondering - and this one came to a dead end for me. I couldn't think it clearly through.

At what point is something heretical?
What about people who are teaching flat-out wrong doctrine to the masses?
Are they saved? - will the listeners be saved (generalities)?

There must be some dividing line or we (at least I) care about nothing.
Is it absolutely and ONLY birth, death, resurrection of Jesus Christ - who He is and what He has done for us?
Some would claim that free will adherents don't believe that by definition of what it is to have free will. They say is is adding to what Christ did and that it is prideful in the sense that it is adding "works toward salvation" (which I don't see).

[crmann]

Now Mizbayakh, as to Free Will..

Ernest C. Reisinger shares his belief on the free will of man which I think presents a pretty good concept of man’s free will. He says the Bible teaches that man, since the fall, in his natural corrupt state, has lost all ability of the will to do any spiritual good accompanying salvation and is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself. In other words, Adam had free will, but when he chose to take the advice of Satan and Eve, he lost his free will.
 
How great was the liberty of the will before the fall, that is, as God made Adam? The testimony of Scripture answers this question: “Truly, this only have I found: that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes” (Eccl. 7:29).

In this state of innocence, Adam had a mind enlightened with the perfect knowledge of God and a will yielding entire obedience to God by its own voluntary act and inclination. Yet this will was not so confirmed in this knowledge and obedience that it might not fall by its own free exercise, if the appearance of any good were presented for the purpose of deceiving and effecting a fall. In other words, the will of man was free to choose good and evil. It might continue to stand in good, being preserved by God; or it might also incline and fall over to evil, if forsaken by God. Adam had a copy of God’s law written on his heart. As a key is fitted to all the wards of a lock and can open it, so Adam had power suited to all God’s commandments and could obey them perfectly.

The Scriptures teach that by his fall into a state of sin, man has lost all ability of will for any spiritual good accompanying salvation. Therefore, as a natural man, altogether averse to good and dead in sin, he is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself or to prepare himself for salvation.

The Bible teaches: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Psalm 51:5). Paul teaches that all mankind sinned in Adam and that all men, therefore, are “without excuse” (Romans 2:1).

Fallen man, while unable to perform what is good, is never compelled to sin. Instead, he does so by his own depraved will—he wills to sin.
 
In his natural corrupt state, man freely chooses evil, without any compulsion or constraint upon his will. Indeed he cannot do otherwise, being under the bondage of sin. When Adam sinned, he and all his posterity fell into this state of nature and were corrupted. He will stay in this state unless he is recovered by the power of the Holy Spirit. This is where you and I are if we have not been converted (“born again”).

The biblical description of this state of nature is as follows:
• The sinfulness of man’s natural state: “Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5).
• The misery of man's natural state: “We.. .were by nature children of wrath, just as the others” (Ephesians 2:3).

• Man’s utter inability to recover himself “For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly” (Romans 5:6). “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44).

In this unregenerate, fallen state, man has no ability to do anything spiritually good. Man is a slave; he is in Satan’s prison house and does not have the key to get out. Second Timothy 2:24—26 says, “And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance , so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will” (emphasis mine).

In this unregenerate state, men are spiritually blind and cannot see, spiritually deaf and cannot hear, and what is worse, they are dead in trespasses and sins. But there is a God in heaven who can open blind eyes, who can unstop deaf ears, and, bless His holy name, who can and does raise the dead.

How does God influence the will of man? He presents objects or circumstances to the understanding, and through these, effectually moves and inclines the will. Therefore, although they choose that which God wills, they do it nevertheless from their own deliberation and choice and therefore act freely. So men may be said to act freely, not when they disregard every form of government and restraint, but rather when they act with deliberation and when the will chooses or rejects objects by its own free exercise, even though it may be excited and controlled by someone else (God).

If some of you think this is a little heavy, let me give you a little illustration that sets forth how God changes the “wilier.” I remember hearing an old country preacher pick his guitar and sing a kind of “hillbilly” song, and though he may not have understood it, that song clearly sets forth a great theological truth, that is, that God makes man willing. I call it: The Hornet Song

When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God,
And grieved Him because of their sin,
God sent along hornets to bring them to terms,
And to help His own people to win.

If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room,
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urging to make yourself scarce,
You’d want to get out, don’t you see!

They would not lay hold and by force of their strength,
Throw you out of the window, oh, no!
They would not compel you to go against your will,
But they would just make you willing to go.

When Jonah was sent to the work of the Lord,
The outlook was not very bright.
He never had done such a hard thing before,
So he backed and ran off from the fight.

Now, the Lord sent a great fish to swallow him up,
The story I am sure you all know.
God did not compel him to go against his will,
But He just made him willing to go.

CHORUS:

God does not compel us to go, oh, no!
He never compels us to go.
God does not compel us to go against our will,
But He just makes us willing to go.

This song is teaching the truth found in the Psalms: “Blessed is the man You choose, and cause to approach You, that he may dwell in Your courts” (Psalm 65:4); “Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power” (110:3 KJV).

What can the will do in the state of sin with reference to good? Some strength still remains in the unregenerate to do some civil good, such as, exercising justice and temperance. He can do acts of mercy and charity. He can abstain from theft and homicide. Some heathens have some virtue; however, they cannot do spiritual or supernatural good—pleasing and acceptable to God. Even “the plowing of the wicked is sin” (Proverbs 21:4). The unregenerate has no strength for heavenly things—either in his intellect or will—from which the free will arises.

The unregenerate cannot do any spiritual good because he is spiritually dead: he must first be made alive by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.

This state of depravity is proof of how we are born into this world since the fall. Man is not born neutral. He is born with a sinful nature. Parents should have no difficulty in believing that children are born with something other than a neutral nature. Parents do not find it necessary to teach their little children to lie. They soon learn what the Bible has to say about the inclinations with which their children are born. “The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies” (Psalm 58:3). Parents do not have to teach their children to get angry—we have all seen children get very angry before they can talk or walk—and according to our Lord’s teaching, anger is the mother of murder. (Matthew 5:21—22.)

Children are not sinners because they sin; they sin because they are born sinners—it is in their nature. This underscores the fact that the will, in this state, can only act according to its nature. It is true they are free but only free to act according to their nature. We are not free to fly because we do not have the nature of a bird. A sheep will not eat garbage like a hog. Why? Not because the sheep does not have a mouth and teeth but because of its nature. A hog will not eat grass like a sheep for the same reason: not because it is not free, but because it is free only to act according to its nature. So it is with the freedom of the will in the state of depravity—men are only free to act according to their nature.

Our Lord makes this point very clear when He states that a tree is known by its fruit (Matt. 12:33—37). Our Lord’s illustration of free will here will assist us in understanding a very important but controversial subject. (Walter Chantry of Carlisle, Pennsylvania, has an excellent exposition of this passage entitled Mans Will Free—yet Bound.)

We also see this truth in the most pessimistic verse in all the Bible in which Jesus says to a crowd who are in the state of nature: “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.”(John 5:40) “You are not willing”—this is the will in the state of nature.

The unwilling in this state must be made willing by a mighty power outside themselves—by the power of the Holy Spirit. Man’s will is not his hope. “Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13).
The Spirit of God declares that: 
• every imagination of man’s heart from infancy is evil (Gen. 6:5; 8:2 1)
• there is none righteous, none that understands, none that seeks after God (Ps. 14:3; Rom 3:10—11)
• all are useless, corrupt, void of the fear of God, full of fraud, bitterness, and all kinds of iniquity, and have fallen short of the glory of God (Rom. 3)
• the carnal mind is enmity against God and does not even leave us the power of thinking a good thought (Rom. 8:7; 2 Cor. 3:5)
Therefore, we maintain with Augustine that man, by making a bad use of free will, lost both himself and it. Since the will is overcome by the corruption into which it fell, man’s fallen, depraved will has no real liberty. No will is free which is subject to lusts which conquer and enchain it.

In like manner, God declares that it is His own work to renew the heart (Ps. 51:10), out of stone to make it flesh (Ezek. 11:19), to write His law on the heart and put it in the inward parts (Jer. 3 1:33), to make us to walk in His precepts (Ezek. 11:20), to give both good will and the results of it (Phil. 2:13), to put the fear of His name into our hearts, that we may never withdraw from it (Jer. 32:39), and in fine, to finish the work which He has begun in us until the day of Christ (Phil. 1:6).

From this we conclude, again with Augustine, that:
• the children of God are actuated by His Spirit to do whatever is to be done
• they are drawn by Him, out of an unwilling state to be made willing
• since the fall it is owing only to the grace of God that man draws near to Him
• it is owing only to the same grace that God does not withdraw or recede from him
• we know that no good thing which is our own can be found in our will
• by the magnitude of the first sin, we lost the freedom of the will to believe in God and live holy lives
• therefore “it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs”—not because we ought not to will and to run, but because God effects both the willing and the running.

The covenant of grace does not regard man as a tin can or a piece of wood or a robot. It takes possession of the man, it lays hold of his whole being, with all his faculties, and his power of soul and body—for time and eternity.

God’s sovereign grace does not annihilate man’s will: it overcomes his unwillingness. It does not destroy his will but frees it from sin. It does not stifle or obliterate his conscience but sets it free from darkness. Grace regenerates and re-creates man in his entirety, and in renewing him, causes him to love and consecrate himself to God freely.

Mizbayakh, I have yet to present an idea on a topic that someone else has wanted to contradict what I have said. But until someone does, you at least have one man’s idea of Free Will.

God bless you, Mizbayakh..

The old timer

[mommyjen]

[mizbayakh]

Hello mizbayakh,

If you have scriptural reason to believe those that hold a false teaching will be going to hell...I at least want to hear your plea for saving souls destined for hell.

Could you give a specific example of what false teaching you're referencing?

Blessings,

Bob

Did this clear up as the responses came in? If not, I'll clarify.

I'm still reading all the replies...thank you everyone!

[crmann]

Mommyjen,

What are you saying?

The old timer...

[mommyjen]

That I am watching and seeing what everyone's responses are. Just watching to learn

[Calvin and Hobbs]

God knows the beginning from the end.

OSAS
Book of Life was written at the foundation of the world. The elected or chosen ones were put on earth as lost sheep. (my belief) It is the lost sheeps job to find their way home and to help find as many sister and brother sheep along the way by spreading the gospel to the best of our ability.

We don't have free will ( better explained below)but God know who he saved from the begining of time. He probably needed to know all the elected sin's so that he could pay for them when he spent the equivilent of that time in hell for our sins.

Many believe they are saved by something they did or said , but that is works
none seek after God , no not one. We dont go to God unless he draw them up to him . We are saved by Grace only, all of our good works are like filthy rags to him.

The only thing you see in the true believer is the intense desire to follow the word of God. Only God know the hearts of men. Who is saved and who is of chaff. the Chaff look just like the wheat.

Yes you can be saved and still believe false doctrine. A little baby may have just heard a few of Gods words and become saved if that is Gods good pleasure but may not understand much else in the Bible.

The Bible does mention terrible plagues to anyone that teaches false docrtrine or that add or takes away from his good word.

So no we don't have Freewill
( I think-hard to say) to OSAS....otherwise I think it was a false conversion.but Christ does mention blotting out a name(but Christ spoke in parables and without a prable he did not speak) I was thinking yes...but I believe brother Camping said no ..but does it matter?

But when we saw the multitude, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but thelabourers are few; Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
(I see you in the field)

may God Bless

[mizbayakh]

So yes to Freewill
( I think-hard to say) to OSAS....otherwise I think it was a false conversion.but Christ does mention blotting out a name(but Christ spoke in parables and without a prable he did not speak) I was thinking yes...but I believe brother Camping said no ..but does it matter?

?

I'm slow...would you explain this to me like I'm a dummy ( I am )

"Yes" to Freewill?? What are you answering?...and go on to explain the rest too so I'm sure I understand.

[crmann]

Mommyjen,

That is what I thought you were saying.

The old timer.

[Calvin and Hobbs]

In researching, I stand corrected by the Bible.


There is something very ominous about the doctrine of free will. It is a very serious matter, and the Bible tells us why. If Numbers 15:32-34 we read about a person who picked up some sticks on the Sabbath Day:

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

As near as we can tell, this man kept the Sabbath Day as was commanded, but he committed what might appear to be a very incidental sin; he picked up a few sticks. Certainly this is not a very grievous crime, is it? But God says in versus 35-36:

And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.


What a horrible penalty for such an incidental sin! Why is this? Why did God put this in the Bible? It is a dramatic warning to us not to mix works with God's grace.

When we are unsaved, our will is sold out to sin and Satan. We might insist that our will is free, but in our unsaved condition, our will is always contrary to the will o God. We will never of ourselves come to God because the Bible insists, "There is none that seeketh after God" (Romans 3:11). If you want to call that free will, that we shall always of ourselves go against the will of God, so be it, but that is not the meaning ascribed to free will when people say, "of my own free will I decided to become saved." Their meaning is that anyone can come to Christ by an act of their will, which is under no constraints of God. Likewise, the idea that God will never impose His will upon those who reject Christ and those who thus remain lost of their own free will is a Biblical impossibility and a dangerous doctrine.

We go to salvation kicking and screaming like the fish caught in the net.

Showing once again it isnt true until you research it in the Bible.

and thank you for making me research it in the word...

(off to change the error of my ways)

May God richly bless

[Abiding in His Word]

What a horrible penalty for such an incidental sin! Why is this? Why did God put this in the Bible? It is a dramatic warning to us not to mix works with God's grace.

Calvin, this was not an incidental sin. Since God had spoken to them about kindling a fire on the Sabbath.

Exo 35:1 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD has commanded, that you should do them.

Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day it shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever does work on it shall be put to death.

Exo 35:3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your houses upon the sabbath day.

Since this man was gathering wood on the Sabbath, his intention must have been to kindle a fire as prohibited in the verses above. God said the sin of defiance was equal to blasphemy:

Num 15:30 'But the person who does anything defiantly, whether he is native or an alien, that one is blaspheming the LORD; and that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Num 15:31 'Because he has despised the word of the LORD and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt will be on him.'

[mizbayakh]

What a horrible penalty for such an incidental sin! Why is this? Why did God put this in the Bible? It is a dramatic warning to us not to mix works with God's grace.

Calvin, this was not an incidental sin. Since God had spoken to them about kindling a fire on the Sabbath.

Who are we to judge "incidental" sins? Adam and Eve were banished for eating fruit...

I understand what you are saying though...

[Calvin and Hobbs]

Thank you for your reply Abide. I agree with you completely. I forget how Rough the old laws of the sabbath were(not open a can of worms )

Hate to think how many fires I have started or sat by on cold weekends.

I believe the laws of the Sabbath were to show that God had to do all the work in Salvation.

Did you disagree with any of the other posting?

Thanks again for setting on the narrow path of truth.

[Abiding in His Word]

mizbayakh

Exo 35:1 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD has commanded, that you should do them.

Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day it shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever does work on it shall be put to death.

Exo 35:3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your houses upon the sabbath day.

If God commanded no work on the sabbath and no kindling for fire on the sabbath and said whosoever does work on it shall be put to death, it's safe to say that defiance of that law is not "incidental" i.e. minor. God considered it grievous enough to command that one to be put to death.

I didn't judge the sin, God did.

[mizbayakh]

mizbayakh

Exo 35:1 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD has commanded, that you should do them.

Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day it shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever does work on it shall be put to death.

Exo 35:3 You shall kindle no fire throughout your houses upon the sabbath day.

If God commanded no work on the sabbath and no kindling for fire on the sabbath and said whosoever does work on it shall be put to death, it's safe to say that defiance of that law is not "incidental" i.e. minor. God considered it grievous enough to command that one to be put to death.

I didn't judge the sin, God did.

When God has said "thou shalt not"...is it EVER incidental?
The first commandment covers anything we do...even "good" things are as sin if it's not for His glory.

[Abiding in His Word]

Thank you for your reply Abide. I agree with you completely. I forget how Rough the old laws of the sabbath were(not open a can of worms

Hate to think how many fires I have started or sat by on cold weekends.

I believe the laws of the Sabbath were to show that God had to do all the work in Salvation.

Did you disagree with any of the other posting?

Thanks again for setting on the narrow path of truth.

I've disrupted mizbayakh's thread - my apologies mizbayakh. Calvin, perhaps we can discuss this at another time in another thread.

[Calvin and Hobbs]

You are right..
I must go do the chores, so I can sit back and enjoy my studies all day Sunday.





Blessings to all

[jay7]

OSAS isn't in scripture. Its more like Once Saved Always Repent.

If one walks away from God after being saved for whatever reason, it is unforgiveable.


Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Free will is very scriptural as demonstrated by these verses but the idea of 100 percent free will is not scriptural as God does not control us like puppets. Those who have had their free will altered (such as Saul) had it altered at certain times but not for the duration of their lives. For the most part we do and choose as we wish, but some at certain times are directed by God without any choice.

[Abiding in His Word]

OSAS isn't in scripture. Its more like Once Saved Always Repent.

If one walks away from God after being saved for whatever reason, it is unforgiveable.

I walked away from the Lord for 10 years, but his lovingkindness brought me back and he brought out the best robe for me, killed the fattened calf, and celebrated with me!



Luke 15:22 "But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;

Luke 15:23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;

Luke 15:24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.

[jay7]

Luckily you didn't fit what the Hebrew verses were talking about :)

[Abiding in His Word]

Luckily you didn't fit what the Hebrew verses were talking about :)

Not sure "luck" had much to do with it. I am sure it's His will that none should perish.

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

And the Good Shepherd came looking for his lost sheep:

Luk 15:4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

Luk 15:5 "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Luk 15:6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'

Luk 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

[jay7]

Not sure "luck" had much to do with it. I am sure it's His will that none should perish.

It's a figure of speech that means "good for you" (Luckily/lucky for you) moreso than luck as in pure chance. It was a good thing that you didn't meet the full requirements in Hebrews for one that falls away from God or else you could have suffered from not ever being able to repent of it. :)

He is willing (would prefer) that all are saved but he will destroy those who "fall away" from Him and cannot repent, as well as destroying the rest of the wicked in eternal fire.

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalms 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

[Abiding in His Word]

It's a figure of speech that means "good for you" (Luckily/lucky for you) moreso than luck as in pure chance. It was a good thing that you didn't meet the full requirements in Hebrews for one that falls away from God or else you could have suffered from not ever being able to repent of it. :)9

Sorry Jay, I didn't understand the context of your use of "lucky." Thanks for clarifying what you meant.

[jay7]

So back to the topic, I personally don't believe in OSAS. I believe in freewill although not 100 percent as God intervenes in peoples lives when He wants to. I don't believe all will be saved even though God would like that to happen. I'm sure there are names for the positions I hold but I don't know them offhand. That's my two cents plus to the thread lol

[mizbayakh]

So back to the topic, I personally don't believe in OSAS. I believe in freewill although not 100 percent as God intervenes in peoples lives when He wants to. I don't believe all will be saved even though God would like that to happen. I'm sure there are names for the positions I hold but I don't know them offhand. That's my two cents plus to the thread lol

I'm with you Jay...not sure what you call this "in-betweeness"...but it sounds like we are in agreement.

[Abiding in His Word]

Maybe it's over-simplistic, but we could say that God doesn't save people who don't want to be saved and stay saved - and He knows who they are.

[AndCanItBe]

So back to the topic, I personally don't believe in OSAS. I believe in freewill although not 100 percent as God intervenes in peoples lives when He wants to. I don't believe all will be saved even though God would like that to happen. I'm sure there are names for the positions I hold but I don't know them offhand. That's my two cents plus to the thread lol

I wanted to ask a question jay7 and mizbyakh. Based on the statement above and your agreement mizbyakh, do you think that those of us who do agree with OSAS think EVERYONE will be saved? I'm asking because the above statement seemed to imply that to me, but I wanted clarification. I also ask because if either of you do equate OSAS with a belief that in the end we will all be saved, that is a misconception, and I wanted to clear it up. OSAS simply means you can not lose your salvation once you have it. Not everyone will have salvation. You can't lose what you never had to start with. I just wanted to make sure that was clear.

[mizbayakh]

So back to the topic, I personally don't believe in OSAS. I believe in freewill although not 100 percent as God intervenes in peoples lives when He wants to. I don't believe all will be saved even though God would like that to happen. I'm sure there are names for the positions I hold but I don't know them offhand. That's my two cents plus to the thread lol

I wanted to ask a question jay7 and mizbyakh. Based on the statement above and your agreement mizbyakh, do you think that those of us who do agree with OSAS think EVERYONE will be saved? I'm asking because the above statement seemed to imply that to me, but I wanted clarification. I also ask because if either of you do equate OSAS with a belief that in the end we will all be saved, that is a misconception, and I wanted to clear it up. OSAS simply means you can not lose your salvation once you have it. Not everyone will have salvation. You can't lose what you never had to start with. I just wanted to make sure that was clear.

IF I understand you correctly, no, I don't think that those of you with the osas belief think every one naming Christ will be saved...I have heard the argument that a person was never saved to begin with and I agree that is true in many, many cases...just not every one.
There are so many nuances and God's omniscience, omnipotence plays into it as far as I can understand.

What I do see is people trampling the blood of Jesus underfoot and clinging to osas the whole time. The seeker-friendly churches love osas.
Many of my friends disgard examining themselves to see if they are in the faith, because they consider osas to hold them up. Why should they if at one time they believe they experienced the Holy Spirit testifying to them that they are saved?
I understand not everyone who holds the osas doctrine lives like that. I know that people and satan will twist whatever they can, so I pray you don't take offense to my words. I don't believe osas, but I don't believe every single person who does is not saved.

To your reply that you can't lose what you didn't have...
If you gave me a gift...I could lose that or throw it away if I chose.
If I decide to keep and care for it...you could guarantee that the gift was mine forver.

[water]

Miz, your original question is a two part question.

The first question is asking if there is a conflict between OSAS and free will.

The second question is asking if a person's doctrine can **** them.


Regarding the first question, I think Crmann answered it well. To further solidify his answers, consider that the Lord promised that he would finish the work he began in us. This promise from the Lord further illustrates for us that salvation is not something we can earn.

All of those who do not think OSAS is true need to answer these questions: Can the Lord be trusted? If he can be trusted, can we trust all of his promises? If so, then what part of his promise to finish the work he began in us allows for us to be saved yet be destined for Hell?

Read that again: salvation is not something we can earn.

If we can't earn it the first time, how can we lose it or gain it again?

A perfect illustration and foreshadowing of our Lord's committment to us are the promises to/about Israel.

Consider the promises and prophecies the Lord has given us about his people, the nation of Israel.

Do you doubt that any of his promises regarding Israel will be fulfilled? If not, why would you doubt his promise to finish the work he began in you?

As Crmann stated, the Lord did not put a condition on those statements. He said he would finish the work he began in you, not that he would finish the work he began in you *if you do this and if you do that*.

The Lord judges our hearts and knows our true intent. It is my understanding that the Lord sees through all of our weaknesses, words, and actions, to the heart of our being. The Lord begins the work of salvation in us when we respond properly to him and once the work has begun, he has promised to finish it.

Jesus is the once-and-for-all sacrifice. He is an eternal God. Nowhere in the Bible does it say we need to scramble back to the Lord to renew our salavation, as if it expires or is made null when we slip and fall.

The Lord does tell us to renew our minds, confess our sins, repent of our sins, and depend on him...but nowhere does he say that your salvation vanishes if you screw up.

Consider this: if we lose our salvation with every sin, only to gain it back again when we confess and repent, then if you see our chances of going ot Heaven or Hell at any given moment throughout the day, week, month, or year as a timeline pointing up or down, it would mean that we may be saved right now, but maybe we take an extra 20 minutes on lunch from work today...until we repent, we are going to Hell (according to those who do not believe OSAS).




NOW! Doctrine. Do I need to believe OSAS to go to Heaven? Of course not! Does the Bible say anywhere that one must believe OSAS to gain eternal life? No.

We already know what the Bible says about going to Heaven, either you know the Lord, accept him as your Savior, and let him be Lord over your life, or you don't. If you fall into the category of "don't", that is, you do not know the Lord, accept him as Savior, or let him be Lord over your life, then you are destined for Hell.

So many people confuse OSAS with a license to sin. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Some will come to the Lord and never mature in him very much while they tread this Earth, not because the Lord doesn't want them to, but because they do not choose to. Spiritual infants are weak and will be blown by their desires more often than those who mature spiritually in the Lord. The Lord's promise to complete his work in them will be fulfilled, but maybe only a little during this lifetime.

Remember, the key to Heaven is not being mature in the Lord, it is knowing Jesus as your Savior and Lord.

[AndCanItBe]

mizbayakh

I'm not offended. I see what you have witnessed too and it drives me crazy

The people who act like this read one part of the Bible and then stop, not reading the rest of what Paul says in Romans. I base my belief is OSAS largely on Chapter 5 and 8 in Romans. People who do what you're witnessing, like to skip Chapter 6.

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been bureid with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall als live with Him
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all' but the life that He lives, He lives to God
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13 and do not go on presenting the members of you body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!


He goes on about being a slave to righteousness. I believe just as stongly as you do that we need to obey Christ and anyone who correctly understands OSAS does too, they will not react the way you are seeing. I see it like this; I'm free from the law, so why do I obey? Because Jesus gave me a new heart and now I serve Him out of love and gratitude, knowing my salvation is secure, all of my service is an offering to him, a proof of my love. Jesus said "If you LOVE me, obey my commandments."


Now, I'm not saying you don't serve Jesus out of love, I know you do, but I don't really think Christ intended for us to have this nagging feeling that we better do it or lose our salvation, KWIM? It seems to me if that were the case then his death on the Cross wasn't quite sufficient to pay for us. I know you don't think that, and that you didn't want to imply that, but do you understand where I see the subtle difference?

It's just a question of what should motivate you to serve, not a question of salvation. At least in my mind. I think your obedience is the fruit of your salvation, the fruit of the spirit, entirely. I think the idea that if you don't obey you can actually lose your salvation, makes obedience a piece of the root. I DO think we get rewarded for our obedience and I DO think you can lose your reward but not your salvation. 2 John 8 Matthew 10:42 Matthew 5:12 Some people equate the word reward with heaven and salvation, but it is actually talking about a reward on top of simply salvation and gaining heaven, I believe.

I hope I was able to present this in a way that made it clear to you that I'm not questioning your motives or your salvation, I sincerely am not. This is a difficult discussion to have without appearing to accuse someone of those things.

[mizbayakh]

He goes on about being a slave to righteousness. I believe just as stongly as you do that we need to obey Christ and anyone who correctly understands OSAS does too, they will not react the way you are seeing. I see it like this; I'm free from the law, so why do I obey? Because Jesus gave me a new heart and now I serve Him out of love and gratitude, knowing my salvation is secure, all of my service is an offering to him, a proof of my love. Jesus said "If you LOVE me, obey my commandments."

I agree with you absolutely.

Now, I'm not saying you don't serve Jesus out of love, I know you do, but I don't really think Christ intended for us to have this nagging feeling that we better do it or lose our salvation, KWIM?

I don't have a nagging feeling and I don't have to while I am abiding in Him and He in me. I very well should have a nagging feeling if I'm not following Him...that's where I see osas pulling many folks down to the pit. I'm not implying you won't sin...but when you do you SHOULD have a nagging feeling. You should HATE the sin...it is a battle.
(I am answering the question, I hope you don't feel I am attacking at you in any way or defending myself...I just think it's an important point).

It seems to me if that were the case then his death on the Cross wasn't quite sufficient to pay for us. I know you don't think that, and that you didn't want to imply that, but do you understand where I see the subtle difference?

This is the clincher part. It seems the osas folk should believe that free will adherents are not saved over this subtle difference.
I don't know if there is ever a way to make it clear.
Maybe it's semantics?

I hope I was able to present this in a way that made it clear to you that I'm not questioning your motives or your salvation, I sincerely am not. This is a difficult discussion to have without appearing to accuse someone of those things.

Your presentation is great...you write in a way that is very inoffensive while still making your points (that is a gift!)
I really didn't want this thread to turn into the heated debate...
My main concern is 2 friends on opposite sides. I believe they both are saved...I'm not sure my osas friend believes that about my free will friend though - thus the topic.

Thanks all for joining in.

[AndCanItBe]

I don't have a nagging feeling and I don't have to while I am abiding in Him and He in me. I very well should have a nagging feeling if I'm not following Him...that's where I see osas pulling many folks down to the pit. I'm not implying you won't sin...but when you do you SHOULD have a nagging feeling. You should HATE the sin...it is a battle.
(I am answering the question, I hope you don't feel I am attacking at you in any way or defending myself...I just think it's an important point).

I don't feel you are attacking me at all. I do think we should have a nagging feeling when we sin too, but it should be coming from the fact that our communinion with God is broken until we confess and that the Holy Spirit is convicting us. Our salvation is not broken, just our communion. Adam and Eve is a good example of this. They were still God's children after they sinned, He even came to communicate with them, but there sin had broken the communion and they needed to confess it to restore their communion. It's not quite the same as restoring salvation in my mind, because salvation wasn't in danger, the communion was.

This is the clincher part. It seems the osas folk should believe that free will adherents are not saved over this subtle difference.
I don't know if there is ever a way to make it clear.
Maybe it's semantics?

The reason I don't believe freewill adherents aren't saved is because the gospel itself is still correct. I see this as an unnecessary fear or burden being added to the gospel that could hinder a person, because they obey out of fear and duty. I realize you personally aren't doing that, but it's a danger in this belief, just like the danger in mine is what you pointed out earlier. It doesn't change the fact though, that they believe in a risen Savior, have confessed their sins, and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, just as I am. We're still getting to heaven the same way, we just differ on whether we can lose that way. If I think not, but still am obeying because I haven't ignored Romans 6, then I'm okay because if I'm wrong I'm still obeying. If you think you can lose your salvation, but are still obeying, and you're wrong, well then, possibly you had a concern you didn't need to have, but you still have your salvation. Do you see what I mean? I don't know if I made it clearer or muddled the issue more!

I hope this helped and I'm glad I haven't offended you. I have no desire to. These are good questions.

I wanted to add, there is a line crossed when we begin to question another's salvation on this kind of issue. You obviously haven't crossed it. When someone does cross that line and question salvation based on this issue, is in my mind when that person becomes suspect to me. If they believe my salvation is in question based on their belief that I disagree with, at that point I would see them as actually adding something to the gospel, and possibly having a wrong view of the gospel itself.

[water]

I don't have a nagging feeling and I don't have to while I am abiding in Him and He in me. I very well should have a nagging feeling if I'm not following Him...that's where I see osas pulling many folks down to the pit. I'm not implying you won't sin...but when you do you SHOULD have a nagging feeling. You should HATE the sin...it is a battle.

EXACTLY!

I would say it like this: if one believes that OSAS is true but goes on living a life of sin with no nagging/guilt (actually, it is the Holy Spirit convicting us of our sin and our conscience acknowledging the Holy Spirit), then I would argue that this person is not saved, this person does not know the Lord and this person has not made Jesus both Lord and Savior.

I believe that we do not bounce back and forth between being saved and not saved; however, I believe when a person has genuinely accepted Jesus as their savior AND accepted Jesus as Lord, they will never lose their salvation because the Lord will never let them go...he will complete the work he started.

Yes, they will be tempted. Yes, they will slip and fall along the way.

The difference between one who is saved and the one who is not is that sin will grieve the heart of the one who is saved and he will keep getting back up with the Lord's help. The grief is because the person knows that sin creates distance between us and God.

The one who is not saved may grieve about the worldly consequences of some sins (e.g. a person would grieve over getting a sexually transmitted disease because he slept around), but since he does not know the Lord, his only true desire to change is to avoid worldly consequences.

The abolute bottom line is who sits on the throne of your heart.

If it is Jesus, you have inherited eternal life.

If it is you or anyone other than Jesus, your eternal destination is Hell.

[mizbayakh]

So, what I'm reading is that on the very most important things we are in agreement.

[AndCanItBe]

Yes, I would definitely agree with that mizbayakh.

Your sister in Christ

[water]

So, what I'm reading is that on the very most important things we are in agreement.

That has always been my understanding (excluding the KJV-Only thing because that crowd can't get to Heaven...JK!)

All of humanity since the begining of creation has not even scratched the surface of knowing our eternal and loving God. We simply can't know all of the subtle mysteries during our walk on this planet.

We can all agree on the only thing that really matters, which is that Jesus is the only way. He paid the price because he loves us and we were not able to. When we accept his gift and give ourselves completely to him, we live with him forever.

[mizbayakh]

Well, then I guess I'm still having some questions...about heresy.
What exactly is it?
I understand why my osas friend feels the free will friend isn't saved, because she believes it to be heresy (and at that point you would have to draw the line, correct?)
I mean, what about all the false teachers or watery teachers that end up leading many to hell?
In my mind, as far as I can discern, I would say Joel Osteen falls into this category and possibly Rick Warren. Honestly, I'm not claiming I know, but from what I can gather that is how it appears to me. So, pick your favorite apostate and tell me how come that differs from what we have talked about here...
I know if they aren't preaching birth, death, resurrection and repentance/faith in Christ alone...so don't veer off from the foundation...I'm looking more for the twisters who don't necessarily appear to twist.
LOL - hope I"m making sense.


And Water...it's those people who embrace any and all versions who are in trouble...I'm sure you just were typing fast and messed up what you meant to say.

[AndCanItBe]

Okay I'll use Rick Warren as an example since you brought him up. I don't know too much about his teachings because I avoid them and I think a lot of them are wrong. I think though that since he espouses the gospel doctrine, it is possible he is saved and mistaken, on the other hand he could be a wolf in sheep's clothing. This is how I deal with things like this. I'm going to say, I think his teachings are off-base, even some things are unbiblical. If someone asks me if they should be in his church I'm going to say no based on what I believe to be his misintrepretation of the scriptures. If they ask me if I agree with him on point A or point B, I'm going to say yes or no depending on the point and the reason. If they choose not to listen that is between them and God. I have shared my point of view and it is now up to the Holy Spirit. The gospel is powerful, and even though we recognize a lot of what Rick Warren says surrounding it to be off, there are people who are probably saved through his ministry anyway. Is he going to have to answer to God for teaching people a false doctrine. Quite possibly, but that is between him and God. I can't see the heart, so I may label a teaching incorrect or unbiblical, but I'm probably not going to label the person holding that belief or teaching it a heretic, UNLESS it is in direct contradiction to the gospel, i.e. if you don't agree with this timing of the rapture you're not saved. The line for me in labeling a person and not just the teaching, is a direct attack on the gospel itself. Otherwise it's just the teaching that you need to gently correct or warn against, and let the Holy Spirit take care of the rest. HTH

[water]

Well, then I guess I'm still having some questions...about heresy. What exactly is it?

Real heresy is when man's words about reality differ from God's. For example, if God says Jesus is the only way but man says there are many ways, that is heresy. Teaching that Jesus is not the only way is clearly dangerous because it can lead people to believe something that is not true, something that can mean the difference between eternal life and eternal death.

There are varying levels of heresy in my opinion. Perhaps you believe that the gift of tongues was only for the original apostles and another person believes the gift of tongues is for everyone of every generation. Or, perhaps you just differ on your understanding of tongues...you think it means speaking in mysterious languages to God where someone else thinks it means only speaking in languages that other people can understand (like Spanish or Latin, etc.)

When we stand before God's throne, he is not going to ask us if we believe the gift of tongues is this or that.

When we stand before God's throne, there is only one thing that matters. Are we covered by the blood of Jesus or are we painted up with our own attempts to please God. If we are covered with our own paint, we have rejected God and insulted him, thinking we are worthy and able to make ourselves clean and perfect. (Sounds like pride, doesn't it?)

I understand why my osas friend feels the free will friend isn't saved, because she believes it to be heresy (and at that point you would have to draw the line, correct?)

I am sorry, I am not following you here. I understand what OSAS means and I understand what free will means, but I am not sure why an OSAS person would think a free will person is not saved.

Can you clarify what you or your friend means by free will?

And Water...it's those people who embrace any and all versions who are in trouble...I'm sure you just were typing fast and messed up what you meant to say.

LOL, I don't embrace *any and all* versions, only the versions that are not heresy, like the NLT (and not the KJV).

[mizbayakh]

I understand why my osas friend feels the free will friend isn't saved, because she believes it to be heresy (and at that point you would have to draw the line, correct?)

I am sorry, I am not following you here. I understand what OSAS means and I understand what free will means, but I am not sure why an OSAS person would think a free will person is not saved.

Can you clarify what you or your friend means by free will?

My friend believes that you CANNOT believe in free will without it pointing to the fact (in her mind) that you are not depending and trusting alone in the work of Jesus at the cross. She believes it is adding to the Gospel and comes from pride in keeping oneself.
So...since she won't budge in understanding it any other way...then it is heresy to her.
I understand her point even if I don't agree with her about it.

oh man...don't get me going Water!!! lol Just this weekend at a church I visited, the pastor was using the NIV and had my KJV...they said different things - one of them has to be right and one wrong.

[AndCanItBe]

I know which one's right. The Hebrew/Greek version!

[mizbayakh]

I know which one's right. The Hebrew/Greek version!

BUT...which manuscripts?...that is the question
They say different things.

[AndCanItBe]

Ah, I see! Obviously this is not an issue I have studied. I will ungracefully bow out now!

[mizbayakh]

Let's not go there...whole other topic!! They usually get locked anyway.