church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

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church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:20 am

Latest on church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

*snips*
Officials of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis are calling Archbishop John Nienstedt's resignation "a painful process."

But Auxiliary Bishop Andrew Cozzens (cousins) says Nienstedt's departure is a chance for "greater healing and an ability to move forward."

Nienstedt announced his resignation Monday, a little more than a week after the archdiocese was charged by criminal prosecutors with failing to protect children.


The Vatican said Monday that Pope Francis has accepted the resignations of Nienstedt and Auxiliary Bishop Lee Anthony Piche. The archdiocese was recently charged with ignoring repeated reports of inappropriate behavior by a priest who was later convicted of molesting two boys.


continues
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Re: church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:26 pm

Forgive me for being REAL.....I'm sure his victims would say it was painful, too.

I'm sure the bishop does find losing his "falsely credentialed" position and identity as painful.....but it will turn out to be a good thing for him if....IF.....in his pain, he turns to Christ.....I am certain that if he has humbled himself, he will be spruced up again and wherever God puts him....he will bloom....BUT......he didn't fall as far as he could have....and some would say should have....*(uh, I'm thinking his victims are having a lot of trouble feeling his pain)......
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Re: church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:40 pm

GodsStudent wrote:Forgive me for being REAL.....I'm sure his victims would say it was painful, too.


Indeed! The main reason I posted this particular story is that it's about neglecting to protect the children. Knowing they are subject to abuse and not doing anything to stop it, is finally being recognized as guilt and penalties applied. Hope fully it will lead to further investigation of those in churches who are covering up these crimes against the vulnerable.
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Re: church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:14 pm

I am NOT hearing people I know to be TRUE MEN OF GOD preaching all this sappy love stuff as the Will of God. God has principles, He has RULES....and in His Word, all over the place, He is clear on right from wrong and how often offenses of various kinds very much offend Him.

If we take over vengeance, then He may allow us to have it, and likely, outside His Will in doing so.....but certainly, CRIMINAL ACTIVITY is not, IMO, identified in scripture as something that we should just handle in our churches. That scripture was talking about disputes between the brethren and the ultimate CIVIL lawsuits that ensue.

Who among us is satisfied with the fact that the Catholic church has carried scripture to the extent that they "handle" all these physical assault cases of their bishops? I mean, if I were a bishop and it were in my heart (I had this sick desire), I can assure all that I would have no fear as long as I was well entrenched in the church because, I mean, outside of being asked to resign my job what else would I have to fear?....the answer is not much.....so, the catholic church, imo, takes care of "its own".....bishops.....but what about the victims????

While all of these threads we have going don't necessarily involve catholics....they certainly involve the mentality that we get to choose to report or not report serious crimes against the persons of others, and this is reprehensible, imo. The law of the land does not support that mentality, in no state in this union, and we are also told in scripture that we are to follow the law of the land, unless it conflicts with God's Laws. There is NO clear evidence that scripture supports this thinking that our churches should handle criminal matters. That's the other religion.....you know....shariah law.
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Re: church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby momof3boys on Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:42 pm

In this case, it is not just a 'confession'. The perpetrator(s?) were paid, supported, protected by the church. The offenses occurred (most likely) in the church. Other people working for the church knew about the criminal activity hurting little children in the most egregious way. Sorry, no sympathy from me for those that broke and condoned breaking major laws that hurt others repeatedly. They could have done the right thing and stopped the hurting of others a LONG time ago.

The fact that the focus is on the former bishops' pain, and 'poor me' whining going on strongly suggests that there is no true repentance going on here. They're just sorry they got caught. There are people in my "former" life that are continuing the covering up and condoning of the major abuser. If something were to happen to them, they would have no sympathy from me unless their behaviour changed.

My question about forgiveness is this. If there is no confession to the victim, no verbal sorries, no changing of behaviour, no repentance, and no attempt at making amends, is the victim required (in terms of God's terms) to forgive? In the passages that are often quoted about needing to offer forgiveness, most/half have the qualification of the person needing forgiveness confessing their sin, repenting, and asking for it.

In my life, I have people that abuse and condone/cover up the continuing abuse of my children. Have stolen a significant portion of my inheritance while I'm (still) fighting against homelessness. They do not think they have done or are doing anything wrong, never mind the further steps that would be required. In the case of my children, I lost them BECAUSE I reported the abuse to the authorities after leaving the abuser. In the case of the inheritance, I've been vascilating (sp, sorry) between leaving it be or turning him into his employer since he is in a position to steal quite a bit of money there.

Anyways, IF these people were to confess to me (the victim), change their behaviour and offer some type of recompense, then I would have no problem forgiving them. I already have in my mind and heart in advance under those conditions. But because the sin is ongoing without even any admission that they might be in the wrong in some way, I can't forgive. I just can't. Am I wrong here? Am I risking unforgiveness by God for not being able to do so?
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Re: church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby sacredcowbasher on Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:26 pm

I know what you are going through and have been going through is painful. It is painful to me to hear it and I know of the love of His people, including you, on the board and that they feel the hurt as well.

momof3boys, from what i have been taught and what I understand to be correct about forgiveness is that we forgive whether the one who wronged us is sorry or not, and in many cases, as you have mentioned, are not even aware they have wronged you. Unsaved people are generally very selfish and tend to think about themselves. It's about me, how does this affect me? What is in it for me? How will this make me look to others? etc.

Because they have their own code or standard of living, meaning that if they don't submit to Jesus and our Father, which they don't if they are not saved, they will justify most all of their actions in any number of ways. Briefly, the lost and even the saved are generally easy on themselves and harder on others who do the same things. The lost will look for others to agree with them in their sin so they can feel good about what they are doing.

As followers of Christ, we adhere to His teachings. Can we do them in our own strength? No we can't. We live by faith in Jesus and what He did at the cross. We believe and the Holy Spirit works His works in our lives as we walk with Jesus and talk with Him.

Forgiveness does not mean that we have to be friends with that person or persons. If they are not repentant for their actions it would be best not to be friends with them. When you forgive those who wrong you, you are being God-like, as that saying, 'to err is human, to forgive divine'. We generally need help from God to forgive especially when it is grievous as in your case, affecting your children as well.

I will pray for you convening this and I would suggest that you post your situation in the prayer forum to get other believers to cover you in prayer concerning these issues. You don't have to divulge a lot of information. The prayer forum is not for us to know your business but to lift you up and ask the Lord to help you.

Something to watch out for is to not let bitterness get into you, it can do bad things to you and take you where you do not want to go. You want to have a sweet spirit and a soft heart like Jesus has. It will bless those around you. Don't let anyone steal your joy in the Lord.

I had a pastor who used to say, life should be 10% of what happens to you and 90% of how you respond to it. He had a good hold on love and taught me a lot about it.

God bless

Eddie
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby sacredcowbasher on Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:08 pm

I read a little of the post in another thread in which Imirish01 posted, and, momof3boys, if you haven't read it, it will give you another perspective. It made me reread what you posted in this thread. I missed what you had said about molestation when I read it the first time.

In your former life, I believe you said you were abused, maybe sexually, but I don't know. My wife was abused by her father when she was between 12 years old and maybe 17 or so, not sexually, but physically. Her dad came home drunk and began arguing with her mom and it would turn violent. My wife would step in to protect her mom and she became the target and her mom would lock herself in the bedroom to get away from him.

When my wife got saved and maybe after three or so years, she tried to talk about what had happened with her family members. I was with her and I seem to remember that it was her grandmother (her dad's mom), and two of her aunts (her dad's sisters). Their response was to totally ignore what she said as if she didn't say anything. My wife felt that she was alone with the pain and that her family didn't care. That there was something wrong with her and maybe it wasn't as bad as she had known it to be. But it was bad and that is why family members want to sweep it under the rug and not look at it. As the word says, the light exposes their sins and instead of coming to the light and receiving forgiveness they hide in the darkness.

My wife had to work through forgiving her dad because he never said he was sorry for what had occurred. She does not to this day have a real good relationship with him and I understand why. It is his fault not hers.

I did get permission from my wife to say these things. She's awesome like that.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:15 pm

moma...interestingly enough, I have been listening to Dr. Tony Evans series called "Freedom through forgiveness." I don't know if this link will work, but his sermons can be found on the Urban Alternative and at OnePlace and if you simply google his name. At the end of May he did this series and so many things came to mind when I read your post that I thought the best answer I could give you is to refer you to his series, because there is so much good meat there.

http://tonyevans.org/category/tony-evan ... ve/page/4/
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Re: church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby momof3boys on Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:44 pm

Thank you for your responses. I'll take a look at the link when i get the chance.

It might be possible that I didn't state my question/situation well enough. Jesus offers us forgiveness, but not all will be forgiven. We are not forgiven until we ask for it, repent (to the extent that we're capable of) and follow Him. In my heart, these people are forgiven by me under the same circumstances - even in advance. If they were to ask my forgiveness, stop their hurting of my children, and offer some type of amends showing repentance (like changing the situation with my children, etc.) I will forgive them. Not a problem. Yes, me and my children have been hurt by them over the years, but I still offer forgiveness for that - even though the hurts already done will affect us for the rest of our lives. I'm offering forgiveness under the same terms that God offers us forgiveness.

So why am I held up to forgive on a higher standard than God? Or is everyone forgiven despite never asking for it, and continuing in willful, knowing sinning until they die, thumbing their nose at Him? If that is the case, then why follow Jesus at all? Or am I not understanding the basic principles of the Christian faith?
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Re: church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby GodsStudent on Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:07 pm

Sorry, moma, but if you listen to the series I led you to, you would get such an amazing response from those sermons, and all your questions would be answered. Dr. Evans actually talked on this....DIFFERENT types of forgiveness....what they look like and why we do it...and you'd be really surprised if you just took the time to listen. Sometimes we do our own form of forgiving in the absence of someone asking for it....and it doesn't "apply" the same as other forms of forgiveness. It has purposes though...that serve us...the suffering.....and those of us who need to move our of the stench we sit in when we are held captive to waiting for the next person to ask....

Of course, I am not a Dr. anything and have just done a serious hack job on what Dr. Evans said. I've only listened to these sermons one day and need to return to get it all to really sink in (and I will)....but for now, I know what he taught, and that was on the various forms of forgiveness, how they work and why we do it.....

Better to let you hear from him for the details on this.
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Re: church abuse: Bishop says resignation 'painful'

Postby sacredcowbasher on Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:35 pm

I think you have a good concept of the Christian faith. What comes to my mind in thinking about what you said was two examples of forgiving those who are hurting us. Jesus when He was on the cross said Father forgive them for they know not what they do. I would say that Jesus had already forgiven them and He was asking His Father to forgive them as well.

Steven when he was being stoned to death said Father lay not this to their charge.

When Jesus taught at the Sermon on the Mount he said love your enemies, do good to them who hate you, pray for them who despitefully use you, bless them who curse you, bless and curse not.

You brought up a good point about forgiveness in that God wants sinners to repent and be saved and be forgiven of their sins. We do see however in the examples here that forgiveness was given with no repentance on the part of the perpetrators.

Paul no doubt forgave when he was beaten the many times we see in scripture. There was a man named Alexander, I think, who did him much harm. I don't know if that means that he possibly raped Paul when he was in prison, but whatever it was it seems to have been pretty bad. Paul gave him to Jesus, and the sense that I get was that he didn't outright forgive him and it could have to do with something Jesus taught us. If you forgive men their sins, heaven forgives them, if you do not forgive men their sins, they are retained. This may have been given to Apostles to carry out, I don't know.

We know of judgement being spoken over some like the person who was operating in the occult and was with one of the dignitaries of the country Paul was in. Paul said you will be blind for a season ..... and so it happened.

I would say we need to be led by the Lord concerning every circumstance. If the sin is egregious such as the one Alexander the coppersmith perpetrated on Paul, the sin was not forgiven and Paul left it with the Lord to handle. Actually, I can't say that Paul did not forgive him, he may have and probably did, but he did not ask the Lord to forgive him.

You can see that I am working through this.

Through the day I forgive people who are doing me harm or are doing harm to others. For instance, the person driving the big rig on the highway I take to work who is going way too fast. I pulled off the road and let him pass me and I forgave him and asked the Lord to help him to realize what he was doing. I also ask the Lord to forgive me throughout the day when I sin.

People who are not saved are sinning constantly. We see that we read the list of the works of the flesh and of the carnal mind.

I am doing to much writing now and it is becoming for my sake - sorry. I hope something I said helps you.

God bless

Eddie
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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