Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

News about humankind's turning from God.

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:12 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:Yes lol... It's just strange to me that everyone is so angry about what Josh did 12 years ago, yet the family and the victims are totally over it, they dealt with it and healed long ago. If people really cared about the victims, they wouldn't take part in the public shaming of their family.


Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
Luke 7:47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.”

It takes a long time to learn the meaning of "I desire mercy not sacrifice", longer to grasp that mercy triumphs judgment, longer still to put this understanding into practice in ones life. Most people think of themselves as good people, not bad people who have been forgiven much. Consequently, people love little, judging another's sins instead of being merciful, especially when expressing judgment involving sins they perceive as worse than their own, never realizing they demonstrate how little they love by expressing judgment over mercy.

Josh's sins were exposed to the light and he changed his behavior; per his sisters, he changed who he is, which is the purpose of exposing sins to light. Additional exposure demonstrates a lack of love by failing to cover sins as in (1 Pet 4:8) love covers a multitude of sins; the problem is a lack of love; therefore, also, a lack of mercy expressed towards both his sisters and himself.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:16 am

Keith, I must emphasize that there is a difference between forgiving a sin and suffering or enforcing the legal consequences of that sin. Surely you know the difference between forgiving someone who murders 5 people and endorsing the prison sentence as the consequence. If we apply mercy to such a crime, we would be complicit in any future murders that may follow and such an application would certainly enable anyone to be excused from jury duty where the parameters of the law must be understood and applied when one is broken.

Regarding the interview with both the parents and two of Josh's victims....

I wondered if Michelle Duggar thought she might garner sympathy for her son by appealing in her 12-yr. old voice. :roll: There seems to be a pandemic of grown, adult women utilizing this play as well as ending their statements in a question.

As expected, minimization abounded on the part of two of his victims. Poor Josh...poor us. Granted it was a bad decision, bad choice, bad mistake, bad, bad, bad. But not so bad because, after all, Josh was a "normal" young prepubescent boy and they are "normally" curious about girls. God forbid we give license to all prepubescent boys to engage in touching body parts to satisfy their curiosity. There are 10 and 11 yr. old girls giving birth so evidently some young people have discovered what to do with body parts...but that's normal, right?

More minimization...it was a mistake, bad choice, bad decision, improper, inappropriate, etc. Not one person in this Christian family called Josh's actions sin. Not one.

More minimization...the victims didn't even know! They didn't even know! They were asleep (never mind that Josh purposely chose that time to engage in his "curiosity.") so they didn't even know! I almost expected someone to blame the girls for seducing him or tempting him by their actions or clothing.

Jim Bob and Michelle said several times that after Josh came to them crying?? they implemented safeguards but never explained what those entailed. Whatever they were either stopped the "curiosity-seeking" or it didn't...we'll never know since this family is so adept in keeping secrets and minimizing sin.

Just as a church leader who is in the public eye is subject to public scrutiny, so too, the Duggar family accepted the offer to share their family life in the public sector of the media so no one should be surprised at the public scrutiny.

And finally, had any one of the family correctly called Josh's actions "sinful" or "sin" I would be convinced they recognized the seriousness of his actions. Given that did not happen, I remain skeptical regarding it's re-occurrence based on the statistics of juvenile recidivism. After all, "we all make mistakes."
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:16 am

Abiding,

I stand by what I said.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:19 am

Abiding,

Christ understood your arguments even as He released the woman caught in adultery from: judgment under the Law, the scribes, and the Pharisees. Furthermore, He addressed recidivism by saying to her "Sin no more". Personally, I have to many sins to my name to be casting a stone.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:37 am

, of course they know that what he did was a sin. Why else would the parents talk about Josh needing forgiveness from God and needing to repent?

The sisters probably dfeel the need to minimize the situation because the media has blown it up so much and the attacks against their familyare on such alarge scale, they probably feel like it's been blown out of proportion. That and also because it happened such along time ago. Obviously they've moved on and its not huge deal to them anymore. 12 Years ago it probably was a big deal but life goes on.
extravagantchristian
 
Posts: 3022
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:44 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:28 am

Extravagant Christian,

So the question remains, why is it a big deal to others and why do these others think what they think, which is based upon information that is not first hand, is it more sound than what those with first hand involved think?

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:34 am

keithareilly wrote:Abiding,

Christ understood your arguments even as He released the woman caught in adultery from: judgment under the Law, the scribes, and the Pharisees. Furthermore, He addressed recidivism by saying to her "Sin no more". Personally, I have to many sins to my name to be casting a stone.

Keith


Keith, Jesus would know that no one could "sin no more" as He is/was the only sinless person ever to have this ability. You may be interested in knowing that apparently, according to most scholars, the passage about the woman caught in adultery is not in any of the earliest manuscripts:

My Favorite Passage that's not in the Bible

For a long time, biblical scholars have recognized the poor textual credentials of the story of the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53–8:11). The evidence against its authenticity is overwhelming: The earliest manuscripts with substantial portions of John’s Gospel (P66 and P75) lack these verses. They skip from John 7:52 to 8:12. The oldest large codices of the Bible also lack these verses: codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, both from the fourth century, are normally considered to be the most important biblical manuscripts of the NT extant today. Neither of them has these verses.


I think Christians should stop using this passage about "casting the first stone" as an excuse to avoid applying justice according to the laws of the land, but should rather differentiate between the spiritual implications and the legal ones.

I recognize the difficult and heartbreaking decisions that faced the Duggar parents, but they did Josh no favor by protecting Josh from a long-term treatment program and removal from the home. Such are the responsibilities of parental care and discipline.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

As always, you are free to disagree and stand by your analysis of the situation.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Keeping Alert on Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:06 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Keith, I must emphasize that there is a difference between forgiving a sin and suffering or enforcing the legal consequences of that sin."


I cannot agree with that, Abiding. If you have "truly" forgiven, there is no need to enforcing legal consequences of that sin. The fact is you may or may not want to enforce it. Those who may want to enforce it, will justify themselves by various reasons, but I suspect much of it is because they have not truly forgiven.

RT Kendall, the pastor of Westminster Chapel in London for 25 years, wrote a book Total Forgiveness, which is a good read on this topic.

An account in the book reads

"A few years ago two elders had the task of approaching a man in their church who was in an adulterous relationship. On their way to the man's home, one elder said to the other, "Do you believe that you too could fall into this sin?" The reply was "No." The elder who asked this question then said, "You are not qualified to approach this man" and the visit was cancelled. The essential qualification for a spiritual confrontation is the attitude required by Paul in Galatians 6:1, one of humility and self-searching."

Putting myself in his family dynamics, I might have fallen into the same "bad judgment"...or sin...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Keeping Alert on Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:17 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:



I recognize the difficult and heartbreaking decisions that faced the Duggar parents, but they did Josh no favor by protecting Josh from a long-term treatment program and removal from the home. Such are the responsibilities of parental care and discipline.



Abiding, you give too much credit to humans...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:59 am

never said that Josh shouldn't have been punished, i would severely punish him if he were my child. But Jim Bob himself said that they laid all kinds of punishment on him, including manual labor. Plus they all received professional counciL. I agree that sexual predators should be punished severely. They should be held accountable, and at the same time forgiven. The parents took him to the cops so you can't say they didn't try to bring about legal accountability.
extravagantchristian
 
Posts: 3022
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:44 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 06, 2015 11:30 am

Keeping Alert wrote:I cannot agree with that, Abiding. If you have "truly" forgiven, there is no need to enforcing legal consequences of that sin.


Keeping Alert, surely you jest ... If you apply that logic to another "sin" or "crime" you will see the error in it. Any violation of the law requires enforcing legal consequences. There are legal ramifications for stealing, murder, assault, fraud, tax evasion, child abuse etc. If I steal a stereo and the theft is reported, it doesn't matter one bit if the store owner forgives me or not, I'm going to pay the penalty and have a record.

RT Kendall, the pastor of Westminster Chapel in London for 25 years, wrote a book Total Forgiveness, which is a good read on this topic.

An account in the book reads

"A few years ago two elders had the task of approaching a man in their church who was in an adulterous relationship. On their way to the man's home, one elder said to the other, "Do you believe that you too could fall into this sin?" The reply was "No." The elder who asked this question then said, "You are not qualified to approach this man" and the visit was cancelled. The essential qualification for a spiritual confrontation is the attitude required by Paul in Galatians 6:1, one of humility and self-searching."


Adultery is not against the law so incarceration is not an issue. But sexual molestation of children is against the law. That's why Jerry Sandusky was sentenced to prison for 30-60 yrs. It's why Youth Pastor, Nate Morales, is serving 40 yrs. in prison. It's the reason the RCC has come under such scrutiny for molestation. Child pornography is also a serious crime and subject to statutory penalties. Forgiving these crimes is not the issue; it violating federal and/or state law.

Putting myself in his family dynamics, I might have fallen into the same "bad judgment"...or sin...


Not sure what you mean, Keeping Alert, but again I am stressing the difference between spiritually forgiving a crime and the legal ramifications put in place for the safety/protection of citizens. I've seen several TV programs where the parent or spouse of a murder victim is allowed to visit the perpetrator in prison for the purpose of verbally forgiving them face-to-face. When that happens, the doors to the prison don't open. The sentence must be completed regardless.

Why is it so difficult for Christians to differentiate between the spiritual and the legal?
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:53 pm

Abiding,

Josh's past behavior is no longer subject criminal law as the statute of limitations has expired.
There are no longer any criminal legal consequences to his past actions.
Those calling for any action of any kind to be taken against Josh or his family for actions for which the statute of limitations has expired, are doing so outside the framework of criminal law and are demonstrating they are willing to set aside the criminal laws to satisfy their own desires. Those calling for action have a lynch mob mentality and are no willing to abide by the laws governing statutes of limitations and let him go.

In this situation, there is no differentiation between the legal and the spiritual, for the legal is no longer applicable.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:13 pm

Abiding wrote

You may be interested in knowing that apparently, according to most scholars, the passage about the woman caught in adultery is not in any of the earliest manuscripts:


Abiding, I am aware of this.
Board Rule # 2 dictates I consider the verse concerning the woman caught in adultery as scripture.
I don't object if you consider the verse outside the scriptures and will take that into account for future discussions.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:49 pm

Josh's past behavior is no longer subject criminal law as the statute of limitations has expired.


Thanks to his parents. :wink:

There are no longer any criminal legal consequences to his past actions.


Again, thanks to the cover up of his crime by his parents. :wink:

No one is calling for legal consequences at this time since the statute of limitations prohibits his arrest. But the police offense report of 2006 accuses Josh of forcible fondling and second degree sexual assault involving 5 girls. Initially Jim Bob refused to take Josh in for a police interrogation saying he had hired an attorney who would be handling the case. However, two attorneys refused to represent him.

Law professor Michael Johnson, a former United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Arkansas, tells In Touch: “It is possible that investigators looking into this case could have cited the parents Jim Bob Duggar and Michelle Duggar with Arkansas Code 5-27-221 ‘Permitting Abuse of a Minor.’ Having once learned of the behavior, they recklessly allowed it to continue. This crime is a class D felony because the abuse consisted of sexual contact with a minor. The maximum penalty for permitting this type of abuse under Arkansas Code 5-4-401 is six years imprisonment and a $10,000 fine.”


Over all, the parents were negligent and certainly guilty of a horrendous effort to protect the perpetrator at the expense of the good possibility of future victims based on recidivism statistics of juvenile molesters. Their reality show on TLC provided, no doubt, the funds necessary to support a family of 21 so the image/brand was also at stake. Hence the minimization aspect.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:01 pm

keithareilly wrote:I don't object if you consider the verse outside the scriptures and will take that into account for future discussions.


It is not my objection, Keith. The NASB which I use has the passage from John 7:53 to John 8:11 in brackets with the note that this passage is not in the original manuscripts. That caused me to do some research and found a number of credible commentaries (Robertson's, Vincent's Word Studies, and Adam Clarke's) verify this fact. Also scholars found on the internet were in agreement as noted in the link I provided above.

But you don't have to take my word for it; you can do your own research. It's not my intent to discredit the authority of God's Word, but I hear that "stone-casting" verse used so often to refute bringing a criminal to justice, that it's become a red flag for me.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:57 pm

Abiding wrote ...
I hear that "stone-casting" verse used so often to refute bringing a criminal to justice, that it's become a red flag for me.


I am sorry your experiences cause a red flag. I perceive this is causing you not to be able to hear what I am saying.

The reason for not bringing Josh to justice is because the statute of limitations has expired. Period.
Because it has expired there are no criminal legal ramifications. Period.
Discussion about legal ramifications are pointless. Period.
The expiring of the statue of limitations removes criminal legal consequences from the table. Period.

Now, about spiritual decisions and how we as Christians are to treat Josh, that subject is still on the table.


Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Mark F on Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:38 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:For a long time, biblical scholars have recognized the poor textual credentials of the story of the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53–8:11). The evidence against its authenticity is overwhelming: The earliest manuscripts with substantial portions of John’s Gospel (P66 and P75) lack these verses. They skip from John 7:52 to 8:12. The oldest large codices of the Bible also lack these verses: codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, both from the fourth century, are normally considered to be the most important biblical manuscripts of the NT extant today. Neither of them has these verses.


Liberal scholars try to bring discredit on many manuscripts and Texus Receptus, even though codex Sinaticus and Vaticanus are the oldest COMPLETE manuscripts, that does not translate to the best manuscripts.

Jerome quoted it and he wrote in the 4th century.

Bad argument in my opinion.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
Mark F
 
Posts: 616
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Keeping Alert on Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:38 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Keeping Alert wrote:I cannot agree with that, Abiding. If you have "truly" forgiven, there is no need to enforcing legal consequences of that sin.


Keeping Alert, surely you jest ... If you apply that logic to another "sin" or "crime" you will see the error in it. Any violation of the law requires enforcing legal consequences. There are legal ramifications for stealing, murder, assault, fraud, tax evasion, child abuse etc. If I steal a stereo and the theft is reported, it doesn't matter one bit if the store owner forgives me or not, I'm going to pay the penalty and have a record.



Nope, I do not jest :lol: the reason why there are legal consequences, is because the law does not forgive. Once, it is reported, the full force of the law will come down on the person. In fact, Jesus tells us to try to settle things out of court if possible.

Matthew 5:25 "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.

The way of the court does not seem to be Jesus' way of settling things. While you may think the passage of the woman caught in adultery is non-permissible for argument, I think there are other precedents for all the other sinners that Jesus were with... The tax collectors who were corrupt, the prostitutes... He knew them personally and we know some of their names and there were surely many more... Did he ever once tell them that he had forgiven them but he was still going to report them to the authorities? That the prostitutes were to be stoned?

It is interesting that you mentioned stealing... There were a few who stole from me... I forgave all of them and did not report except one... This one was non-repentant and I decided it was best for the police to know about it so that she would wake up... How do I decide who to report and who to not? The over-riding principle is love... Even the one that I reported, it was for her own good... But would it be right for me to report every case and send everyone to jail for stealing from me? You may disagree but I think not. Jail time, counseling, therapy... Are these the only way to change a person? You give too much credit to humans and to human systems. God and family (as in this case), mentors... play a much more positive and effective role to change a person IMHO...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:10 pm

Mark F wrote:Liberal scholars try to bring discredit on many manuscripts and Texus Receptus, even though codex Sinaticus and Vaticanus are the oldest COMPLETE manuscripts, that does not translate to the best manuscripts.

Jerome quoted it and he wrote in the 4th century.

Bad argument in my opinion.


Hi Mark,

If you think the commentaries and scholars I listed are incorrect and/or "liberal," are you saying you prefer the Latin translation of the RCC? And while my memory is a little foggy about this, wasn't Jerome influenced by Origin who I've read was guilty of heretical teachings?

Please provide me with a link to the version of the bible you think is the most credible today and as well as a commentary you consider reliable and conservative since you think the ones I noted might be liberal.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby ampersand on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:13 pm

keithareilly wrote:The reason for not bringing Josh to justice is because the statute of limitations has expired. Period.
Because it has expired there are no criminal legal ramifications. Period.
Discussion about legal ramifications are pointless. Period.
The expiring of the statue of limitations removes criminal legal consequences from the table. Period.

Now, about spiritual decisions and how we as Christians are to treat Josh, that subject is still on the table.
Keith

Keith,
I agree with your well-thought out, objective analysis in this thread, because you lean heavily on the word of God. For all parties "involved" (victims, Josh, Josh's parents, the local Church, the global Church) in this case with its particular sequence of events, I don't think its too difficult to see that the important first (?next) step is to forgive. If this is not the starting point, I think that our sinful nature will hinder anyone from moving forward and growing spiritually.

Unfortunately, this is so much easier said than done. I have to ask God to forgive through me.

in Christ,
&
ampersand
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby ampersand on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:27 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:The way of the court . Jail time, counseling, therapy... Are these the only way to change a person? You give too much credit to humans and to human systems. God and family (as in this case), mentors... play a much more positive and effective role to change a person IMHO...

KA, excellent point. This reliance on human systems, as you put it, is so pervasive in our society. It is a symptom of many ills, chief of which is that we simply don't want to take responsibility for our actions.

Relevant text, IMO:
Hebrews 4
12 For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;
13 and there is no creature unrevealed before Him; but all things are naked and laid open to His eyes, with whom is our account.

Relevant because (1) it points to really the only objective source of Truth and change on this Earth and (2) it emphasizes that ultimately we will have to give an account, to take responsibility.

in Christ,
&
ampersand
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:35 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:The way of the court does not seem to be Jesus' way of settling things


Jesus never spoke one negative word about the governing authorities even when He was standing before them innocently. He even acknowledged their authority as having been given them by God. He was clear that there is a difference between the things of Caesar and the things of God and we should render to each that which is due. Then you disagree with Paul's referencing the governing authorities as being established by God for our protection and admonishes that if we do evil we should be afraid?

It is interesting that you mentioned stealing... There were a few who stole from me... I forgave all of them and did not report except one... This one was non-repentant and I decided it was best for the police to know about it so that she would wake up... How do I decide who to report and who to not?


That was a crime committed against you personally. You chose to report it for her own good. That was wise imo and you may have saved a neighbor from the same thing by the same person.

The over-riding principle is love... Even the one that I reported, it was for her own good... But would it be right for me to report every case and send everyone to jail for stealing from me? You may disagree but I think not.


Let's apply that to the other crimes I mentioned since you are minimizing the theft you experienced. Would you have reported a murder you witnessed? If you evade taxes by some illegal maneuvering, would you be surprised if the IRS came knocking at your door? Would you expect to be forgiven by them? Or would you expect to pay the consequences of any of those crimes?

The value of the item stolen from you might play a role in your decision as well. For example, what if the item stolen was in the $1K range or ten items you purchased for your children for a birthday or Christmas? What if it was your car that was stolen? Would that have made a difference? That's the difference between the types/levels of crimes; i.e. misdemeanor, first-degree, felony, etc. Also taken into consideration by the court system is first offense as opposed to 8-9 counts of a particular crime.

Jail time, counseling, therapy... Are these the only way to change a person? You give too much credit to humans and to human systems. God and family (as in this case), mentors... play a much more positive and effective role to change a person IMHO...


I'm suggesting we abide by the law and teach our children to obey the laws as well. They should know that violating the law brings consequences for them.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:45 pm

P.S. I don't think punishment administered by the legal system is necessarily designed for the purpose of "changing" or rehabilitating an individual. I think it's designed as a punishment or penalty for breaking the law and hopefully as a deterrent against future crime. (unless the penalty is a life sentence, that is.)
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Keeping Alert on Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:33 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Keeping Alert wrote:The way of the court does not seem to be Jesus' way of settling things


Jesus never spoke one negative word about the governing authorities even when He was standing before them innocently. He even acknowledged their authority as having been given them by God. He was clear that there is a difference between the things of Caesar and the things of God and we should render to each that which is due. Then you disagree with Paul's referencing the governing authorities as being established by God for our protection and admonishes that if we do evil we should be afraid?


Nope, I am not disagreeing with Paul but you seem to have dismissed a whole section of what I wrote... Jesus never once "reported" anyone to the authorities... That is the heart of Jesus Christ and whatever things that we probably have to agree to disagree, knowing the heart of Jesus is vital and I think Jesus has set an example clearly for us in dealing with sinners...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:19 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:Nope, I am not disagreeing with Paul but you seem to have dismissed a whole section of what I wrote... Jesus never once "reported" anyone to the authorities...


Gee, KA...I thought my responses have been pretty thorough and did so sacrificing a good portion of the Tampa vs. Chicago hockey game on TV. :mrgreen:

That is the heart of Jesus Christ and whatever things that we probably have to agree to disagree, knowing the heart of Jesus is vital and I think Jesus has set an example clearly for us in dealing with sinners...


I did speak about Jesus and his absence of negative remarks against governing authorities. I mentioned his statement to Pilate that he only had authority because it was given by God meaning Pilate had governing authority. He also differentiated between the governing (legal) authority and the spiritual in His remark of rendering to each that which is due them. He also submitted to the soldiers when they were commissioned to arrest Him and chided Peter for his vengeance toward them.

As far as forgiving sinners as Jesus did, we have no disagreement. But we can't ignore the difference between the governing authorities and the spiritual. We forgive those who trespass against us personally and the governing authorities apply the law to those who break the law.

Now did you forget to reply to this that I posted above?


Let's apply that to the other crimes I mentioned since you are minimizing the theft you experienced. Would you have reported a murder you witnessed? If you evade taxes by some illegal maneuvering, would you be surprised if the IRS came knocking at your door? Would you expect to be forgiven by them? Or would you expect to pay the consequences of any of those crimes?

The value of the item stolen from you might play a role in your decision as well. For example, what if the item stolen was in the $1K range or ten items you purchased for your children for a birthday or Christmas? What if it was your car that was stolen? Would that have made a difference? That's the difference between the types/levels of crimes; i.e. misdemeanor, first-degree, felony, etc. Also taken into consideration by the court system is first offense as opposed to 8-9 counts of a particular crime.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby ampersand on Sat Jun 06, 2015 7:26 pm

As I read and reread this thread where many very good points were made, I couldn't shake the nagging feeling that I was listening to gossip as far as relates to who did what when (mind, I am not referring to any direct quotes from the police report)...I am compelled to post Josh's public statement (from Facebook), so that he will not be mirepresented.

Now, before anyone incorectly rebukes me for overly-sympathizing with the perpertrator or not considering the poor victims (which has embarassingly happened more than once in this short discussion) please direct me to a statement by a victim, and I will post their words also.

From facebook (https://www.facebook.com/duggarfamilyof ... 1128073873)
Twelve years ago, as a young teenager I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends. I confessed this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling. I understood that if I continued down this wrong road that I would end up ruining my life. I sought forgiveness from those I had wronged and asked Christ to forgive me and come into my life. I would do anything to go back to those teen years and take different actions. In my life today, I am so very thankful for God’s grace, mercy and redemption.


It is also worth restating the title of the Washington Post article with emphasis on a few words:

Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations, quits Family Research council

I leave you all to weigh the importance of these emphases.
ampersand
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby ampersand on Sat Jun 06, 2015 8:53 pm

Exit40 wrote:...To label a victim of trauma with this very word suggests to them there is indeed something wrong with them beyond their ability to control, especially when they are told there is no cure for it, that it will be with them for the rest of their lives. It is in fact a normal response to extraordinary circumstances. To be told it is a disorder is to further stigmatize the victim, it is a disorder to only those who do not have it, and are not able to comprehend it. I respectfully suggest to care providers to eliminate that word from the condition. I believe restating the name of this condition will be beneficial to the victim in that it will relieve the burden of guilt/stigma for even having it. ...

Hi David,
PTSD is in fact a pathological response to pshycological trauma. It is correctly classified as a "disorder", because, as with other psychiatric disorders, it is characterized by dysfunction. There are specific diagnostic criteria that must be met. All patients who are exposed to trauma have some negative reaction when recalling the trauma. Most patients will not develop PTSD. Those that do ultimately have abnormal responses that result in clinically significant impairement in social, occupational, or interpersonal function. I think this distintion is important.

in Christ,
&
ampersand
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:19 am

ampersand wrote:I leave you all to weigh the importance of these emphases.


Thank you, ampersand. The 77 posts in this thread attest to the fact that it's exactly what we are doing.

BTW, the title of the thread is from the article in the Washington Post but Josh's molestations are no longer "allegations" but facts due to the evidence contained in the police report along with the admission from him, his parents, and the victims.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Keeping Alert on Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:39 am

Let's apply that to the other crimes I mentioned since you are minimizing the theft you experienced. Would you have reported a murder you witnessed? If you evade taxes by some illegal maneuvering, would you be surprised if the IRS came knocking at your door? Would you expect to be forgiven by them? Or would you expect to pay the consequences of any of those crimes?

The value of the item stolen from you might play a role in your decision as well. For example, what if the item stolen was in the $1K range or ten items you purchased for your children for a birthday or Christmas? What if it was your car that was stolen? Would that have made a difference? That's the difference between the types/levels of crimes; i.e. misdemeanor, first-degree, felony, etc. Also taken into consideration by the court system is first offense as opposed to 8-9 counts of a particular crime.


All I can say life is complicated, but for the case of Josh, after considering all the facts that I know, I will be content to choose to believe that the parents did the right thing for their child (do you really think it is better for him to be incarcerated for years behind bars or have his name blemished as a child abuser for things that no one seems to have bones with him right at this point at least?). At least the record shows he did not repeat his "bad behavior" in 12 years...

Love believes all things and hopes all things...

I choose to believe in second chances... And changes by God...

Let me tell you a little about myself... I work in the most populous country in the world and I tell you I choose to be probably stolen from often. Let me tell you what I mean. You see, it is a developing country but there are lots of beggars... Old man with false signboards claiming they came to find their wife but can't get home now... Woman with child on their backs who might have been snatched away from some rightful mother... Man who has deformed legs that were probably the result of a syndicate who broke his leg as a child stolen...

We debate about this among the expatriates here... Whether to give or not to give... If we give, are we not supporting the syndicates and more falsehoods? But I choose to give because whatever it is, they have needs... But most of all, I do not want to harden my heart. I want my heart to be soft and emotional and for the down and out... That is my calling... I am here in this country to help, not to judge...

But so that you do not think I am avoiding :mrgreen:

Yes, I would report a murder I witnessed

If anyone cheated at taxes, I would not expect to be forgiven by the IRS because it is not for them to forgive... But do you know what? There are countries where my friends are in where the tax authorities are actually quite forgiving...

And regarding the value or Christmas gifts, if stolen, I would tell my children that it's ok. It is only material and let us not get too upset about material loss.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Keeping Alert
 
Posts: 2435
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:48 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby ampersand on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:16 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
ampersand wrote:I leave you all to weigh the importance of these emphases.

Thank you, ampersand. The 77 posts in this thread attest to the fact that it's exactly what we are doing.

BTW, the title of the thread is from the article in the Washington Post but Josh's molestations are no longer "allegations" but facts due to the evidence contained in the police report along with the admission from him, his parents, and the victims.

Hi Abiding in His Word,
I should have pointed out the reason for emphasizing the word "allegations". Of course, we now know that the allegations of sexual abuse were true, but several of the things that folks have brought up in these 77 posts remain allegations. Many of the details surrounding this case are mostly unknown (to us, the public). However, it needs to be pointed out that the statute of limitations had NOT run out when the original investigations took place. Apparently, the results of the investigations were such that further action was not warranted.
As in all abuse cases, one is obligated to be careful to a fault in what sources they use. Tabloids and hearsay won't do. What we, the public, have are two heavily redacted (and now expunged) police reports. We don't have the DHS investigation*. I would like to see more facts. However, I understand that there are multiple layers of confidentiality in these cases, and I am fine with not knowing the details so long as I dont propose/imply those unknown details as fact.

&

*Whether or not this is due to Josh's trial against the DHS doesn't matter.
ampersand
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Exit40 on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:31 am

ampersand wrote:
Exit40 wrote:...To label a victim of trauma with this very word suggests to them there is indeed something wrong with them beyond their ability to control, especially when they are told there is no cure for it, that it will be with them for the rest of their lives. It is in fact a normal response to extraordinary circumstances. To be told it is a disorder is to further stigmatize the victim, it is a disorder to only those who do not have it, and are not able to comprehend it. I respectfully suggest to care providers to eliminate that word from the condition. I believe restating the name of this condition will be beneficial to the victim in that it will relieve the burden of guilt/stigma for even having it. ...

Hi David,
PTSD is in fact a pathological response to pshycological trauma. It is correctly classified as a "disorder", because, as with other psychiatric disorders, it is characterized by dysfunction. There are specific diagnostic criteria that must be met. All patients who are exposed to trauma have some negative reaction when recalling the trauma. Most patients will not develop PTSD. Those that do ultimately have abnormal responses that result in clinically significant impairement in social, occupational, or interpersonal function. I think this distintion is important.

in Christ,
&


Thanks for the definition, but you missed my point.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8848
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby ampersand on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:48 am

David,
I didn't mean to minimize your conribution. Your point that victims are further stigmatized by the label was diluted by the erroneous statement, "It is in fact a normal response to extraordinary circumstances." It seemed your whole argument stemmed from this incorrect understanding. Accurately diagnosed psychiatric disorders can then be properly treated. If we say it's normal, what are we treating?
Regards,
&

edited for clarity
ampersand
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:36 am

ampersand wrote:I should have pointed out the reason for emphasizing the word "allegations". Of course, we now know that the allegations of sexual abuse were true,


but several of the things that folks have brought up in these 77 posts remain allegations. Many of the details surrounding this case are mostly unknown (to us, the public). However, it needs to be pointed out that the statute of limitations had NOT run out when the original investigations took place. Apparently, the results of the investigations were such that further action was not warranted.


We'll not know the results of the Human Services investigation as it is currently sealed due to the fact that prior to its release, Josh Duggar sued the agency and the case went to trial. I assume the results will become available at some time in the future, but it has little bearing on the fact that the molestation did occur to 5 young girls and a babysitter.

As in all abuse cases, one is obligated to be careful to a fault in what sources they use. Tabloids and hearsay won't do.


Sources have gathered credible information including the police report by virtue of the Freedom of Information Act so they have been careful not to make assumptions. If those sources are not acceptable to you, you at least have the words directly from Josh Duggar, the parents, and two of the victims who all verify (at least) the basics which we are discussing in this thread without embellishment as far as I can see.

What we, the public, have are two heavily redacted (and now expunged) police reports.


The police report is available on line. If you are aware that it has been heavily redacted, you must have done some reading and/or research on this issue for yourself. I'm not going to question the credibility of your source because it's difficult to not hear information about the Duggars on any TV station, many internet news pages and many blogs.

We don't have the DHS investigation*. I would like to see more facts. However, I understand that there are multiple layers of confidentiality in these cases, and I am fine with not knowing the details so long as I dont propose/imply those unknown details as fact.


We have a sufficient number of details to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Josh Duggar did (in fact) sexually molest 5 young girls and that he did so at night while they were in a very vulnerable position at sleep. We do know that after approaching his parents and confessing his "mistakes", he did the same thing 9 mos. later.

*Whether or not this is due to Josh's trial against the DHS doesn't matter.


Of course it matters. Every single detail of this case matters and should not be ignored or minimized. It's a very serious crime despite the efforts to make it appear differently and the public sees it for what it is and many are appalled.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby GodsStudent on Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:20 am

Thank you for that, Abiding.
I can't believe what I have been reading here, in part, which is why I can't even bring myself to participate in this thread. I think I will leave it at that, but wanted to thank you for your response above, Abiding.
GodsStudent
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 10993
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2008 10:36 pm

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:31 pm

Abiding write ...
Of course it matters. Every single detail of this case matters and should not be ignored or minimized. It's a very serious crime despite the efforts to make it appear differently and the public sees it for what it is and many are appalled.



It is a very serious crime and it is appalling. As you said in your first post it is way too common.

While we have been on opposite views to some degree, I have not minimized this. I do understand that this act is a social taboo and may not be able to be addressed with level heads. For the record, I think you have been reasonable. We don't necessarily agree but you have been reasonable.

I believe the law is made for men and society. Consequently, when I evaluate an situation, I look for what good can be wrought from the event. Assuming Josh is truly in repentance and stays there, I think the Duggar family has done about as good as can be expected from a really bad situation. I watched the interview with the girls and they did get counseling which I had previously thought was not so.

Sometimes, a situation has no upside and you do the best you can and you move on. I think that is what the Duggar family did. Would I protect my own child from the law? Yes, if I thought that was in my child's best interest. After watching what happened to the Duggar family in the media, I am much more likely to cover up sins, much more likely to avoid the police where records are made that can be used against those I love, especially with regards to the victims such as the Duggar girls. Because of the girls, this should never have been made public.

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby ampersand on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:40 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
*Whether or not this is due to Josh's trial against the DHS doesn't matter.


Of course it matters. Every single detail of this case matters and should not be ignored or minimized. It's a very serious crime despite the efforts to make it appear differently and the public sees it for what it is and many are appalled.


Abiding in His Word,
I agree. I am appalled by what happened. I agree, no one should ignore or minimize what happened. I don't think anyone in this thread has minimized or ignored what happened. I agree, it does matter, but only if we get all the facts. I have to accept that a judge, who had more information than us, decided that this was the right thing to do. If it was the wrong thing to do, you can bet the DHS would have made a case against the Duggars.

The report is important only if the public gets all the facts. If we know only a few things here and there, then its very easy to overstate the case and embellish as you said. Going up only a few posts, you rightly give credit to the governing authorities for applying the law. In this case, we must accept:

1. A court ruled not to disclose the DHS report. The court had more information than us, and we are the ones who gave the court power to make that decision.
2. Proper authorities were involved and an investigation was done. For some reason, no further action was taken against the Duggar family, even though no statue of limitations had run out. These authorities had more information than us, and the public allowed them to use this information to make the decisions they made.

Did the parents wait too long to get authorities involved? Yes, I think waiting three months is too long. But once the authorities were involved, I have to step back and accept whatever decision was made. I don't have all the information they had.

&
ampersand
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Sonbeam on Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:41 pm

keithareilly wrote:

Sometimes, a situation has no upside and you do the best you can and you move on. I think that is what the Duggar family did. Would I protect my own child from the law? Yes, if I thought that was in my child's best interest. After watching what happened to the Duggar family in the media, I am much more likely to cover up sins, much more likely to avoid the police where records are made that can be used against those I love, especially with regards to the victims such as the Duggar girls. Because of the girls, this should never have been made public.

Keith


One commentator on t.v . said the same, i.e., that families would now be reluctant to report something like this to the authorities for fear that "supposedly" sealed records might be made public.

Was anyone here surprised by the viciousness of the reaction by some in the media towards the Duggar family, especially after Fox News aired their interviews?

To a certain extent I was. Though we know that the secular world was bound to pounce on this story because it involved a Christian family, I was not expecting to hear and read such cruel and bitter criticism hurled at this family. It made me think of the following verses:

Psalm 22
12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

sonbeam
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 534
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Exit40 on Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:34 am

The misconceptions about PTS are so huge as to actually minimize the causing event/s, this is the stigma I am talking about. The fortunate thing about it is, sometimes anyway, there are no outward signs of the 'condition'. The unfortunate thing about it is, being misunderstood the victim can get blamed for their responses. I am sorry you are still missing my point, that it is a disorder only to those who don't have it. The professional field states there is no cure, but there is treatment. Problem is, many professionals misunderstand the very nature of it, and so are unable to properly diagnose and treat the condition. And actually blame the 'victim' for not responding to the 'supposed' treatment. Thus the stigma.

These gals seem to not be severely affected by the incidents, so perhaps they will not develop PTS from it. More than likely the publicity will be the cause of PTS reactions. Can anyone blame them for withdrawing from this stuff ? Tell me then, how is this not a normal reaction. This type of thing happens in so many ways to so many people, maybe most of us to some degree. This is part and parcel to life as a human, in the flesh. We all carry some burden, some have come from extraordinary circumstances. This is why I say, normal response to extraordinary circumstance. If we continue to state unequivocally it is not normal, we place the stigma and blame on the victim for developing the condition. Is this explanation a little easier to understand ?

And this is why I say we should call it something other than disorder.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8848
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Mark F on Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:18 pm

I just watched this news clip and the two girls were shown, it begins at 1:00, one said: "I feel like we are being revictimized, only 1,000 times worse." ( or close to that, watch the video for an exact quote)

I feel bad for those girls who everyone here keeps saying are the focus, the victims, seems they are really being dragged through the mire in the name of justice. Personally I think its all a sensationalized witch hunt. Justice my eye.


Fox News Video
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
Mark F
 
Posts: 616
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2008 5:29 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:13 pm

Mark F wrote:I just watched this news clip and the two girls were shown, it begins at 1:00, one said: "I feel like we are being revictimized, only 1,000 times worse." ( or close to that, watch the video for an exact quote)


Hi Mark,

I watched the Megan Kelly special where she interviewed the two girls several nights ago. I was appalled that the two continued to defend their brother's molestation under the guise of "puberty" and "natural curiosity" of a young boy. And then, in the midst of the minimization, an unexpected burst of tears! The irony of emphasizing over and over how they "didn't even know it" and it was only "on top of their clothes", comes the trigger response of being associated with a such a "normal" sexual event while they slept at night.

Only in keeping with the denial of the serious nature of the 5 molestations of their brother, one of them expressed emotions in the form of sobbing similar to those experienced by victims of rape or sexual assault or even domestic violence....a "trigger" response. And again, in keeping with the coverup effort, and minimization of their victimization, they now blame the very media attention they have happily paraded the family in front of for @ 10 years! And expect sympathy as a result of the interest!! How absurd! It's the family image that must be maintained and defended as pristine as promoted on TLC!

I feel bad for those girls who everyone here keeps saying are the focus, the victims, seems they are really being dragged through the mire in the name of justice. Personally I think its all a sensationalized witch hunt. Justice my eye.


Mark, to the best of my knowledge in all my research and media attention, no one has requested an interview with the victims. There has been no effort to name them or identify which of the girls were molested. None! Either these two young women volunteered to expose and identify themselves as the victims or they were asked to do so by their parents. That was their choice, but there has been no witch hunt against the victims only for the victims without any demands from them whatsoever. It's my opinion, the two young women interviewed caused more problems for the family's image since Jim Bob himself reported that Josh repeated his molestation 9 months after confessing to parents. So there are many unanswered questions about the measures they claim were put in place following the first offenses and why they still refused a reputable, credible treatment program with proven results. Also curious is why the Human Services agency investigation received opposition from Jim Bob and why Josh sued them. And even stranger is why Jim Bob chose a personal friend in law enforcement to send his son to help with manual labor for 3 months when that friend himself was found to be a molester and is now serving 56 yrs. in prison!!

I'm not sure about the justice aspect as clearly Josh is off the hook and that's been public knowledge from the beginning. The concern is whether or not the situation was handled appropriately all the way around to ensure a repeat occurrence doesn't happen again within or without the family.

If anyone should have been interviewed and questioned, we should have heard from Josh and afforded him the opportunity to answer some questions millions of people have.

Again, when someone/anyone is a public figure, public interest and exposure is to be expected. This was true of the Penn State scandal, Jimmy Swaggart affair, Jim Bakker fraud, Tom White of VOM suicide, Bill Gothard sexual allegations and Doug Phillips of Vision Forum Ministries resignation. They profited by public exposure and should expect public scrutiny in the same arena.

I'm reading about some of the families associations and foundational belief systems that may cause some unusual or even dysfunctional living situations that underlie the continual pattern of denial and minimization. I may post my findings.

This thread was posted in the Apostasy Forum by me for a reason. I'm of the opinion we should be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. We should not be unaware of the wolves who are and will continue to infiltrate the sheep and appear to be "of" us but are not and how the sheep are being misled by strange and dangerous teachings. So what belief systems and family associations did the Duggars and their children follow?
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:20 pm

Exit40 wrote:These gals seem to not be severely affected by the incidents, so perhaps they will not develop PTS from it. More than likely the publicity will be the cause of PTS reactions. Can anyone blame them for withdrawing from this stuff ?


They said the media attention surrounding this was "1,000 times worse." If that was true, why did they subject themselves to more media attention? And you are correct about the PTS syndrome triggers and was evidenced by the tears of one of the young women. The reaction was to the media attention but the media had no idea which daughters were molested prior to their interview. So they self-identified for the sole purpose of protecting their brother it seems.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:05 pm

Abiding,

I am having trouble grasping your concept of forgiveness. If forgiveness has no practical application with regards to behavior toward the one being forgiven, I don't see how it is forgiveness.

Are you able to forgive Josh?
And what does "forgive Josh" mean in your opinion?

keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:40 pm

Abiding wrote...
This thread was posted in the Apostasy Forum by me for a reason. I'm of the opinion we should be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. We should not be unaware of the wolves who are and will continue to infiltrate the sheep and appear to be "of" us but are not and how the sheep are being misled by strange and dangerous teachings. So what belief systems and family associations did the Duggars and their children follow?


This is tantamount to saying the Duggar family are wolves in sheep's clothing and apostate.

Is this what you mean to say?
Would you say this of all Christian families that encounter and deal with sin and cover it up?

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:07 pm

keithareilly wrote:I am having trouble grasping your concept of forgiveness.


Perhaps that's because I'm not the one discussing forgiveness. I thought I'd been pretty clear that my concern is that Josh get the appropriate help and assessment in the form of a credible, reputable treatment center and that he should have been removed from the family during that treatment to avoid the possibility of molesting others.

If forgiveness has no practical application with regards to behavior toward the one being forgiven, I don't see how it is forgiveness.


Forgiveness is the spiritual gesture directed from the one sinned against to the offender. The "practical" application depends on the situation, but primarily frees both parties from anger, bitterness, guilt, etc. as the result of the offense.

Where we seem to be having a problem is (again) differentiating between the spiritual and the legal. I gave an example above, but a couple that may help clarify the difference again...If you wake up and discover your new 3-wk.old Lexus SUV is missing from your driveway, you would most likely report it to law enforcement. That's because theft is against the law. If you come home to find your wife has been assaulted by a neighbor and has a broken arm as the result, she might report the incident to the police. If your daughter (not yours personally) confesses she's been buying heroin from a classmate, you might want the seller stopped and report it. These are violations of the laws of our country and might constitute a misdemeanor or felony depending. Each of the guilty parties can be forgiven but that doesn't preclude the ramifications that come from breaking the law. That must be satisfied as determined by the court.

Are you able to forgive Josh?
And what does "forgive Josh" mean in your opinion?


Josh has done nothing to me. There has been no criminal or spiritual offense committed against me. I can't forgive by proxy for another against whom a crime was committed. I know that Jim Bakker committed fraud. Should I forgive him? Does that even make sense? My understanding of the principle of forgiveness in scripture is it's personal.

Mat 18:21 Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

Luk 17:4 "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

I hope that answers your question.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:14 pm

This is tantamount to saying the Duggar family are wolves in sheep's clothing and apostate.

Is this what you mean to say?


Of course not. I believe I referred to the possibility of a belief system or foundation that may have influence on their lifestyle. Just as Holly examines the beliefs and erroneous interpretations of scripture form the basis of the NAR movement and/or erroneous belief systems that cause cults like Scientology or Jehovah Witnesses, Roman Catholic practices, etc., what we believe influences how we live and our behavior.

Hope that helps.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby keithareilly on Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:44 pm

Abiding,

Ok, now I am really at a loss here.
1) Because the statute of limitations has expired, there are no legal consequences for Josh's actions.
Nothing we can do about that.
2) Josh has not sinned against you personally, so there is nothing for you to forgive.
3) You posted under "Apostasy Watch" but are not saying the Duggar's actions are apostasy.

SO, ... what is the point you are trying to make or the lesson I am not grasping?

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1673
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby ampersand on Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:07 pm

Exit40 wrote:The misconceptions about PTS are so huge as to actually minimize the causing event/s, this is the stigma I am talking about. The fortunate thing about it is, sometimes anyway, there are no outward signs of the 'condition'. The unfortunate thing about it is, being misunderstood the victim can get blamed for their responses. I am sorry you are still missing my point, that it is a disorder only to those who don't have it. The professional field states there is no cure, but there is treatment. Problem is, many professionals misunderstand the very nature of it, and so are unable to properly diagnose and treat the condition. And actually blame the 'victim' for not responding to the 'supposed' treatment. Thus the stigma.

These gals seem to not be severely affected by the incidents, so perhaps they will not develop PTS from it. More than likely the publicity will be the cause of PTS reactions. Can anyone blame them for withdrawing from this stuff ? Tell me then, how is this not a normal reaction. This type of thing happens in so many ways to so many people, maybe most of us to some degree. This is part and parcel to life as a human, in the flesh. We all carry some burden, some have come from extraordinary circumstances. This is why I say, normal response to extraordinary circumstance. If we continue to state unequivocally it is not normal, we place the stigma and blame on the victim for developing the condition. Is this explanation a little easier to understand ?

And this is why I say we should call it something other than disorder.

God Bless You

David


David, I really tried to understand what you are saying, but I cannot follow your reasoning. The only conclusion I can draw from your statements is that you fundamentally misunderstand what PTSD is. Some specific points:

1. "It's only a disorder to those who don't have it." Your argument is akin to saying that lung cancer is only a disease to those who don't have it. Or major depressive disorder is a disorder only to those who don't have it. Or bipolar personality disorder is only a disorder to those that don't have it. or... you get the point.
2. "Publicity" is not the cause of PTSD. Psychological trauma is the cause of PTSD.
3. "Withdrawing from this stuff" is not PTSD. It is a normal response to stress/trauma.
4. "Carrying a burden" is normal. PTSD goes beyond that in very specific ways that I briefly touched on in my earlier post.
5. Diagnosing someone with a condition is not the same as "laying blame" on a person. If anything, certain diagnoses have been improperly used in our society to remove blame and responsibility.

Therefore, yes, I agree, what you have described (points 3 and 4) shouldn't be labeled PTSD. But then, any professional who half-listened during training wouldn't be labeling that PTSD! So, problem solved, I suppose?

&
ampersand
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby ampersand on Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:51 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Perhaps that's because I'm not the one discussing forgiveness.

Abiding in His Word,

Respectfully, you posted an article titled "Josh Duggar apologizes..." Therefore, I think an important consideration since your very first post has been what certain parties must do with this apology, ie, forgive or not.

Respectfully, I have been reading and waiting to see a good explanation for the following items. Perhaps, you could explain why:
1. Josh Duggar now needs to get help and assessment from a "treatment" center? (you wrote, "...my concern is that Josh get the appropriate help and assessment in the from of a credible, reputable treatment center...")
2. Josh Duggar must now do his repenting in prison? (you wrote, "Perpetrators and predators should do their repenting in prison where the law has done it's job in protecting others from undeserved lifetime consequences.")
3. Josh's children now need to be watched carefully? (you wrote, "Josh should be denied access or ministry that involves children and even his own children need to be watched carefully.")
4. Josh Duggar now needs to be mandated to a professional treatment program with experts? (you wrote, "I have suggested in previous posts that at the very least, Josh should have been mandated to a professional treatment program with experts trained in dealing with this type of crime...that should still occur...")
5. Josh Duggar now needs to be restricted from any groups where children are present without supervision? (you wrote, "He should also be restricted from any groups where children are present without supervision from an accompanying adult.")

I am not saying you're wrong, but I suspect you are. However, those are serious stipulations for this individual who has been liberated by the criminal justice system for the specific infractions under discussion. What is your basis that this individual needs to abide by these requirements?

Do the above itemized stipulations which you have scattered throughout this thread stem from legal or spiritual considerations?

And finally, regarding the spiritual vs legal, you write:
Where we seem to be having a problem is (again) differentiating between the spiritual and the legal. ... These are violations of the laws of our country and might constitute a misdemeanor or felony depending. Each of the guilty parties can be forgiven but that doesn't preclude the ramifications that come from breaking the law. That must be satisfied as determined by the court.
(emphasis mine)
And yet, you seem to have serious issues with the following legal aspects of this case:
1. That multiple authorities handled the problem when it was brought to their attention in a timeframe NOT beyond the statute of limitations.
2. That multiple authorities apparently did not agree that there were violations of the laws of our country. (I say "apparently", because criminal charges were not brought.)
3. That the Families in Need of Services agency was involved.
4. That furthermore, the DHS investigated the matter. (The results of this investigation are entirely unknown, but in my opinion don't necessarily matter today. If they would change anything today, they would have likewise changed things in this case 9 years ago.)
5. That a judge may have apparently ruled in Josh's favor regarding the DHS investigation.

To the best that I can assess the situation, multiple proper legal entities were involved and should a criminal case have been appropriate, it would have been pursued. Apparently, these government authorities, who had information we do not (and likely will not) have, decided not to continue with any investigation and legal action. Furthermore, in whatever case was brought against the DHS by Josh, a court decided the matter, and we have no reason to suspect the judge in that case. It seems that all appropriate legal demands were satisfied.

To me, it seems all appropriate legal demands have been satisfied. It seems the family is satisfied. It seems the victims who have self-identified are satisfied. The perpatrator complied with the demands placed on him at the time. 12 years later, the perpetrator has resigned his position at FRC and stated that he "sought forgiveness from those I had wronged [perhaps specifically naming the sins he had committed] and asked Christ to forgive me and come into my life". With the information that I have currently, I see no further need to place any stipulations on Josh from a legal or spiritual perspective.

Regards,
&
p. Let the record reflect that I have no association with the Duggars or any other party involved with this case. I did not even know about the show until this thread.
ampersand
 
Posts: 501
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Exit40 on Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:15 am

Hi Ampersand. I think our disagreement stems from what I consider to be PTS, and what would be considered the actual defined 'disorder'. The misconceptions between the two, even in the professional field, are huge, and thus the misunderstandings which create the stigma's.

Physical diseases as compared to diseases of the mind are apples and oranges IMO. Although PTS is a normal hormonal stress 'condition', what the mind of the individual does with it is what can bring about the condition described as the 'disorder'. Even though the stress called 'post traumatic' for a reason, is delayed, which I consider to be the 'normal' reaction, this does not necessarily promote the disorder of the mind that can come about as a result. The disorder itself comes about by the mind not being able to incorporate the experience into the present, this itself is a result of naturally produced hormones which perpetuate the disorder. PTS can be treated successfully, counseling and limited temporary medications are beneficial. The disorder itself cannot be treated successfully, counseling and limited medications can help to mitigate the effects on an individuals life. And yes it is a swirling mess that is not fully understood yet. If anyone states there is an answer to all this I will respectfully disagree.

Abiding has correctly pointed out the two gals have responded to triggers, a result of PTS, and this of course is normal. And it is apparent that despite having forgiven their brother their own condition suggests they have not properly put the incident/s into perspective in their personal lives. If they can get appropriate individual and group counseling, and if necessary medications temporarily, they likely will not develop the disorder.

The stigma is caused by the misconceptions of the difference between PTS, and the 'disorder' itself that can result from not receiving proper timely treatment. I consider it to be a matter of perspectives, some of which cause judgmental reactions in untrained individuals.

Are you involved with PTS professionally ? You write well, thus my question.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8848
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Josh Duggar apologizes amid molestation allegations

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:19 am

In my opening post to this topic, I expressed my concern about the prevalence of sexual sin among Christians as well as our country as a whole. Every day we hear or read about the increase in human trafficking for sexual purposes; prostitution; sexual assault/molestation; pornography which includes abduction of children for this purpose; prevalence of sex and drugs in schools, and adultery or unfaithfulness between spouses.

All of these are illegal with the exception of adultery. All are crimes committed secretly, intentionally with a purpose. Those purposes are varied in their intent, but all are planned and executed knowing full well the illegality of such endeavors and the likelihood of legal consequences if discovered. Hence the effort to cover up, hide, claim innocence or blame others.

There have been these types of sins and others exposed in our churches; i.e. Mars Hill, The Village Church (Acts29), Sovereign Grace Ministries; Covenant Life Church, Voice of the Martyrs, Bill Gothard Ministries and others. Many have successfully avoided legal implications by employing methods of coverup until the statute of limitations comes into play or the perpetrator is moved to another location where the congregation may not be aware of past allegations.

Most, if not all, minimize, deny, shame and/or criticize those who ask pertinent questions and demand truthful answers that ensure appropriate recognition of the serious nature as well as measures taken to safeguard others from future similar acts.

It's not only churches where we find sexual crimes being brought to light, but sports, college campuses, among celebrities and politicians, and the military.

It was, and still is, my desire to explore the root cause, underlying belief systems, general family training and/or teachings, previous victimization, religious or spiritual foundations, or others that may cause a seeming explosion of sexual crimes.

The Duggar family scandal brought these questions and concerns to millions due to their public image and presentation of a family that lives according to biblical teachings. In other words, where does this tendency toward multiple sexual sins come from and why is it being ignored, covered up and/or minimized by Christians?

I don't think I can be any clearer in expressing my thoughts and position about this matter, how it was handled, and how it has been regretfully mishandled.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 28615
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

PreviousNext

Return to Apostasy Watch

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron