Is this the doctrine that Christ hates?

[Hisown]

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars.

“So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Revelation 2.

Because of the content of this discernment video I would not recommend it be viewed unless one is grounded in their faith, it is most disconcerting and yes it does name names .

These men are associated with the New Apostolic Reformation, it IS occultism!

How sad a time we have entered into!


http://www.youtube.com/v/_rwzbcMXpSQ&hl ... 3E%3Cparam

[lamb7]

Okay. That was disturbing. I had to turn the volume down. Almost sounds like the drums and chanting of the aboriginal Natives of North America. If I didn't see this, I wouldn't have ever imagined it, that's for sure.

In Christ,
lamb

[Reborn]

Dear God in Heaven have mercy on Your Church!!

[Resurrection Torchlight]

WOW!!!

that's all I can say- unbelievable

RT

[aaron]

The video is disturbing, that is for sure.

I was just studying the Nicolaitans in Rev. for a Bible study, and I found two very interesting perspectives on them and what it could be they do that the Lord hates. One view was that they practiced a pagan, earth-worship that focused on worshipping the creation, not the Creator. The other view was that they had a hierarchy of authority that placed the power of God in the hands of a few, taking it out of the body. I lean towards the second view, as this practice would give ultimate power to speak on God's behalf to one man, and to his 'generals' under him, lording it over the people.

Jesus help us stay on the narrow path and not be deceived, bearing fruit when you return. Amen.

[Hisown]

The video is disturbing, that is for sure.

I was just studying the Nicolaitans in Rev. for a Bible study, and I found two very interesting perspectives on them and what it could be they do that the Lord hates. One view was that they practiced a pagan, earth-worship that focused on worshipping the creation, not the Creator. The other view was that they had a hierarchy of authority that placed the power of God in the hands of a few, taking it out of the body. I lean towards the second view, as this practice would give ultimate power to speak on God's behalf to one man, and to his 'generals' under him, lording it over the people.

Jesus help us stay on the narrow path and not be deceived, bearing fruit when you return. Amen.

Aaron.

I have personally met quite a few " Nicolaitans" in my walk with Christ, the saddest thing of it all is how I was harshly rebuked for daring to question them especially being a gal an all

The spirit of discernment is being silenced and I fear we are further into the apostasy than many would care to admit, only because they would then have to re-evaluate their own eschatology timing.

Can we say these men see themselves as " little gods"? those whom claim to have authority over the " lesser sheep"?

Now who would have thought that sorcery / witchcraft was so close to "home " ? Voodoo belongs in Africa right?

(Sarcasm off)

Reminds me of the Lord's warning back in 2003 -Is 47

Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.


9 But these two [things] shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, [and] for the great abundance of thine enchantments.

[Just_Betsy]

If you've seen this video, you've seen what demon possession looks like.

It ain't pretty.

When I look at that, and find myself wondering how anyone can be drawn to it, I remember what Jesus said.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me...
but by contrast
You are of your father, the Devil...

Very sobering. And I believe we'll be seeing more and more of it.

[jgilberAZ]

The other view was that they had a hierarchy of authority that placed the power of God in the hands of a few, taking it out of the body. I lean towards the second view, as this practice would give ultimate power to speak on God's behalf to one man, and to his 'generals' under him, lording it over the people.

That is my understanding, as well. Which, is exactly the authority structure of the institutional church.

We should all read Pagan Christianity by Viola.


- Jeff

[Abiding in His Word]

We should all read Pagan Christianity by Viola.

I have read it and I agree.

[Mttw633]

That was so vulgar and I feel sick to my stomach for those people. I just watched the videos on the History of the Bible, watch part 12 it's most telling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acQp-G66 ... re=related

This would be a good example of the nicolatians.

[Hisown]

That was so vulgar and I feel sick to my stomach for those people. I just watched the videos on the History of the Bible, watch part 12 it's most telling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acQp-G66 ... re=related

This would be a good example of the nicolatians.

mttw633 you just blessed me immensely thank-you for posting that , it was the answer I was seeking this morning!

Not only does it affirm what the Lord has been alerting the body to the danger's that have infiltrated Evangelical Christianity ( all under the name of unity with the RCC church ) but today has convinced me that we are even further into the apostasy than what was first anticipated.

It is nauseating right now, can you imagine when AC is revealed , having the " ecumenical " church behind him?

Ps I placed the book order thanks guys for the recommendation, now it all makes sense!


Will Jesus find faith when He returns?

[Mttw633]

Awesome! Glad it was what you were looking for.

[burien1]

We should all read Pagan Christianity by Viola.

I have read it and I agree.

Thanks. My copy is on the way.

[mguard]

Sorry...... but no! emphatically No! we should not all read this book and follow after this spirit of error.

Barna is teaching of another spirit. his movement is rebellion against the the Lord really. Following this mans ideas will lead to death.

Please please please no not follow these movements.....Me thinks they are being "tied in bundles" and we know what happens to bundles that have been tied.

the devil will give 97% truth to feed 3% error.

[Abiding in His Word]

Barna is teaching of another spirit. his movement is rebellion against the the Lord really. Following this mans ideas will lead to death..

How so, mguard? The book merely traces the origin of many of the traditions and rituals that have led to the "institutional" church's condition we see today.

[jgilberAZ]

The other view was that they had a hierarchy of authority that placed the power of God in the hands of a few, taking it out of the body. I lean towards the second view, as this practice would give ultimate power to speak on God's behalf to one man, and to his 'generals' under him, lording it over the people.

That is my understanding, as well. Which, is exactly the authority structure of the institutional church.

We should all read Pagan Christianity by Viola.


- Jeff

I need to correct myself.

I still believe Pagan Christianity is an accurate portrayal of the historical aspects of certain church practices.

However, I have come to a greater understanding of Mr. Viola over the last week, or two. His handling of scripture is questionable, at best. For instance, if you go to his site and read a paper he wrote called "Reimagining a Woman's Role in the Church," you will see that he takes the position that the new covenant makes the old covenant obsolete. Yes, he says obsolete.

When Jesus Christ entered the scene, all of this radically changed. Our Lord inaugurated a New Covenant which made the old one obsolete.

There are other questionable positions in that article. Please don't start a debate about the role of women on this thread. There are other threads for that already. I just pointed to that one since it was the one that got me to re-think my position on Mr. Viola.

Once I looked at his site some more, I found this:

A Jesus Manifesto by Len Sweet and Frank Viola

Do you know who Leonard Sweet is?

Apprising.org Leonard Sweet

Leonard read Revelation 3:16 from the Message “translation” of the Bible. That was all the scripture that he said he needed to “prove his point” and then began to talk about God’s vomiting of the lukewarm in judgment, here it how he described those individuals. He began to talk about a New Age coming (no kidding he did not try to hide his language) and how one day there’ll be no need for the scriptures or any type of church because everything is united in spirit. “The same energy, the same ‘god’, who works in you exists in nature, exists in all creation in everything” he continued with the idea that everything has a spiritual content and that it all inherently good, then he really seemed to show a pantheistic streak. Leonard Sweet elaborated on his spirit in everything point “in many ways god is the earth and so are the pews you sit in and your pets and everything that has life, they are not ‘god’ but they are”.

I tried to read Mr. Viola's book "From Eternity to Here."

I couldn't get past the first chapter or two. He makes so many assumptions, and frankly, blatantly twists scripture to make a foundation for a case he will later build upon. Yet, with such a poor foundation, what good is the resulting conclusion?

I am about ready to throw every Viola book I own in the garbage.

There are issues in the institutional church ... no one would (I think) argue against that. But, I don't think Mr. Viola's exegesis/hermeneutics are such that we should place much emphasis (if any) in his proposed solutions.

Just my two cents ... take it for what it's worth.

- Jeff

[Hisown]

I need to correct myself.

I still believe Pagan Christianity is an accurate portrayal of the historical aspects of certain church practices.

However, I have come to a greater understanding of Mr. Viola over the last week, or two. His handling of scripture is questionable, at best. For instance, if you go to his site and read a paper he wrote called "Reimagining a Woman's Role in the Church," you will see that he takes the position that the new covenant makes the old covenant obsolete. Yes, he says obsolete.

When Jesus Christ entered the scene, all of this radically changed. Our Lord inaugurated a New Covenant which made the old one obsolete.

There are other questionable positions in that article. Please don't start a debate about the role of women on this thread. There are other threads for that already. I just pointed to that one since it was the one that got me to re-think my position on Mr. Viola.

Once I looked at his site some more, I found this:

A Jesus Manifesto by Len Sweet and Frank Viola

Do you know who Leonard Sweet is?

Apprising.org Leonard Sweet

Leonard read Revelation 3:16 from the Message “translation” of the Bible. That was all the scripture that he said he needed to “prove his point” and then began to talk about God’s vomiting of the lukewarm in judgment, here it how he described those individuals. He began to talk about a New Age coming (no kidding he did not try to hide his language) and how one day there’ll be no need for the scriptures or any type of church because everything is united in spirit. “The same energy, the same ‘god’, who works in you exists in nature, exists in all creation in everything” he continued with the idea that everything has a spiritual content and that it all inherently good, then he really seemed to show a pantheistic streak. Leonard Sweet elaborated on his spirit in everything point “in many ways god is the earth and so are the pews you sit in and your pets and everything that has life, they are not ‘god’ but they are”.

I tried to read Mr. Viola's book "From Eternity to Here."

I couldn't get past the first chapter or two. He makes so many assumptions, and frankly, blatantly twists scripture to make a foundation for a case he will later build upon. Yet, with such a poor foundation, what good is the resulting conclusion?

I am about ready to throw every Viola book I own in the garbage.

There are issues in the institutional church ... no one would (I think) argue against that. But, I don't think Mr. Viola's exegesis/hermeneutics are such that we should place much emphasis (if any) in his proposed solutions.

Just my two cents ... take it for what it's worth.

- Jeff

[/quote]


Most disconcerting

My book arrived yesterday, I read the first few pages and even recommended it to friends, I need to retract that ASAP!!

Viola and Leonard-Sweet ?

Oh my the deception!!

[Abiding in His Word]

I still believe Pagan Christianity is an accurate portrayal of the historical aspects of certain church practices.

I agree.

[Hisown]

I still believe Pagan Christianity is an accurate portrayal of the historical aspects of certain church practices.

I agree.

So do I Abiding, but get this , I send out an e-mail yesterday recommending this and this morning have " hate mail" in my inbox.

My deepest concern is for friends that I have known for over 10 yrs ( in the church) that refuse to hear the dangers of the apostasy and great falling away in the Emergent church.

Why is this?

Please pray for me, I'm struggling to deal with the loss of yet another friendship.

[burien1]

I still believe Pagan Christianity is an accurate portrayal of the historical aspects of certain church practices.

I Agree.
I read it all the way through last night. And although I agree with him on the historical stuff, and thought it was a great book at first, his use of scripture in some places, and/or lack of other scriptures on the same topic, bothered me. By the time I reached the end of the book, I couldn`t quite put my finger on what was bothering me about it, but something about it felt WRONG. After praying about it and sleeping on it, I won`t be passing the book on.

People are better off researching the subject for themselves, and then weighing it according to what the scriptures say.

Mguard said,
the devil will give 97% truth to feed 3% error.

Hisown said,
Please pray for me, I'm struggling to deal with the loss of yet another friendship.

[GodsStudent]

Man, Glad I missed this one. I just did this round with another one last week, or so. You know, the great assumptions, tying scriptures where they don't go....the whole nine yards. What an ordeal it was for me. I was just thinking about that episode this morning and I thank God for the experience, as it sharpened me and taught me the valuable lesson of "jumping on the bandwagon" head first.....I will (hopefully) be much more cautious about "a thing" as a result of my experience with the Daniel's timeline "thing."

[Mttw633]

I will (hopefully) be much more cautious about "a thing" as a result of my experience with the Daniel's timeline "thing."

What thing was that? Was it in a post here?

[Hisown]

The Lord reminded me of these verses this morning-


Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.2 Peter 2 :3


Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.1 Cor 10:12

[mguard]

I praise the Lord that you all have not continued down this road. I did many years ago when the Lord really started to reveal things to me and I could see the deception in the churches I was trying to attend. Over and over I heard things in these places that made me want to vomit or cry. So instead of just going to the Lord I went to the internet and looked for others to explain to me what I was seeing and that is where I read a Barna book and others that were in error if not for the Lord and His grace I would not love my brothers and sisters in the Lord this day.

[jcisking]

I cannot tell you how many times I have dove head-first into the teaching of man without using any discernment. There are so many false doctrines out there that have been passed from one generation to the next without anyone questioning the "great man of God" who originally taught it. Currently, my husband and I are meeting every week with some dear friends and we have committed to study ONLY the scriptures verse by verse and not man's teaching. Even with that we have to be so very careful because the devil can mess up our understanding of the direct unfiltered word of God.

It has been very humbling to me to have to retract things that were spoken and recommended by me to friends and family without me being the Berean we are told to be. I have "eaten crow" more times than I care to and crow is very tough to chew. I don't recommend it to anyone. What I have come away from all of this with is a great understanding of why we are compared to sheep. From what I understand, they are pretty stupid animals and can get themselves into quite a mess without a good shepherd to lead them. Because of this, I have a much deeper appreciation of God's grace and great disdain for any legalistic doctrine that teaches anything but Christ and Him crucified.

My prayer for all of us is that we would study the scriptures in context, and truly ask the Lord to show us truth. Put the other books down. It is so easy to be mislead, and it is very creepy when you realize that you have been deceived.

[Jay]

I also have been reading this thread with great interest. As a result, last week I purchased and received a copy of Frank Viola's "Reimagining Church".

The "97% truth" he presents in his book is very compelling. He nails the problem with the institutional church, and clearly shows the hinderance to the Holy Spirit that comes when church members "stare at the back of the head of the person in front of them for 1-2 hours every Sunday" without sharing their gift of Christ with one another.

Viola is compelling in his representation of how the Lord Jesus becomes central as He is revealed through the scriptures when the members of the Body each have a psalm, a scripture, a word of Christ to share...and how we need to believe that the Holy Spirit IS ABLE to orchestrate Christian meetings if we TRUST Him, we don't need a liturgy...very compelling and true! On the other hand, he does quote Gilbert Bilezekian who was (and maybe still is) in leadership at apostate Willow Creek Church.

Viola is also spot on about the FALSE premise that the pastor is the head of the local church and that the elders and deacons have some kind of higher role and authority than the members (he scripturally proves their role is supposed to be about service, not higher authority). Viola does a good job of exposing this Nicolaitianism that the modern evangelical church is hindered by.

I have not finished the book, but I agree we need to be careful for there are indeed some red flags.

[jgilberAZ]

.
I had no issues with Pagan Christianity ... and I had no issues with Reimagining Church.

He does a good job of analyzing the institutional church, and how it came to be in the form it is currently.

I ran into problems, however, when I started reading his website, and when I started reading From Eternity to Here.

Here are some of the "endorsers" on the inside pages of From Eternity to Here:

Leonard Sweet
Dan Kimball
Brian McLaren

Look them up.

Here is the beginning of the first chapter:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1434768708/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

Before the beginning, she was there. She is the most elegant woman in the universe. She is as ancient as God. She existed before angels. Her origins reach further back than antiquity itself. Yet she is forever young.

The word stunning fails to adequately describe her. She is as beautiful as the face of God. She is beyond captivating. She is hypnotic and magnetic. Most of us have never imaged the glory that she carries. Just a glimpse of her matchless beauty could win your heart and possess your being. She is incurably attractive.

It goes on, and degrades from there ...

[Jay]

She is hypnotic and magnetic. Most of us have never imaged the glory that she carries. Just a glimpse of her matchless beauty could win your heart and possess your being. She is incurably attractive

Is he trying to describe the Body of Christ...there's some dangerous non-scriiptural assumptions there. Too bad modern authors never describe the Lord Jesus with such passionate clarity.

[WhiteH2OWoman]

I just couldn't keep watching... had to rebuke it in the name of Jesus and click away. That woman with the blood face probably needs to have demons cast out of her!!!

Lord Jesus, come quickly, please!

[Hisown]

I just couldn't keep watching... had to rebuke it in the name of Jesus and click away. That woman with the blood face probably needs to have demons cast out of her!!!

Lord Jesus, come quickly, please!

, this is nothing in comparison to what we will be seeing on a greater scale in the great -trib


Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


You will be greatly blessed to check out Holly's latest entry on her blog.

An alarming alliance is forming -- leaders in the apostolic-prophetic movement are joining forces with leaders of America's Religious Right.

http://www.spiritoferror.org/