Your Story

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Your Story

Postby Reconciled on Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:54 pm

Mod’s feel free to move this if I posted this in the wrong forum.

I know from reading here and elsewhere that many of you, like me, have had to leave or have been forced out of your churches because you took a stand against false teachers, teachings, and the apostasy in general. I would like to hear your stories of what happened. What you stood against and the tactics church leadership used to get you to leave or to force you out. In part, I am researching to find out how similar the details of each situation are. I know, as it was with me, many people never think it could happen to them and our sharing the details of our experiences here may help others avoid our pain, if not be aware of what to look out for. I will write and post my story shortly.
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Re: Your Story

Postby carpentersdaughter on Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:28 pm

The church I was attending had a good pastor. He was sound in his teachings, and I was thankful for that. My husband and I went every Sunday and got to know quite a few people there. I was asked to run the media library. I was honored to do so.

The videos and DVD's and books were all in boxes, so I had to organize each of them so people could check them out. Well, I came across Benny Hinn books, Kenneth Copeland and lot of other Word of Faith teachers. I talked to the Pastors wife about this and it didn't seem to bother her. I told her these men are false teachers and we can't let these books and videos be lent to people. She told me this is what the people wanted and that they were going to keep them.

I never went back to that church again.
1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in the later times some will abondon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
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Re: Your Story

Postby Rich Kelley on Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:08 am

After loyal attendance for several years, I read the list of "We" believe, about 15-20 in all, and after the 1st they should have stopped, and the rest just defined a "Religion". Items 2-20 had nothing to do with salivation or Jesus, but were very important to be in agreement with in order to be a "member" of the church. Note to self; Just because the name of the church is "Bible" church of (insert city name), doesn't mean that the leaders haven't been to a seminary and have been tought things that are tought to the leaders of the larger denominations. Look for a former fisherman, tax collector etc. :grin:
Rich
Jesus is the only way, get over it.
There are 30,000+ denominations/divisions in the body of Christ. Why?
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Re: Your Story

Postby beeps on Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:10 am

I have not spent long in churches. I have been born again for nearly 9 years and answered the call that had been on my life fairly late. I first went to a church that had doctines of OSAS, Pre-trib rap, and heavy scofield. I asked many questions but no-one could prove these things to me in the Bible and I started to see that the doctrine of OSAS let people just behave awfully to each other without any fear of eternal consequences. I was told that even people who had gone away from God, and lived in fornication and had children out of wedlock where still 'saved' because they confessed Jesus as a small child. The church also denied the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to me that was having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. I went to this church for 2-3 years and in the end I had to leave.

I then went to a charismatic church, well that was worse than the first, fake gifts, fake movement of the spirit. The music was too loud, and it was all emotional hype, and money grubbing. I used to ask when we were going to do some real Bible study and I was told that we would not deviate from the set programme that the leadership had set down. Well I got fed up, and after seeing some pretty awful stuff like slain in the spirit and the demonic laughter thing, we left. I have been out of church for 5 years or so, and I have come the conclusion that I don't want to mix my worship of God with error and people who have no fear of God or regard for his word.

Most churches are doing rick warren stuff and a raft of other rubbish. Its lonely but I have some fellowship with other like minded people, and its much better than standing in a wooly apostate church just to feel part of a group.
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Re: Your Story

Postby imirish01 on Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:01 pm

I've enjoyed to two churches I have attended since becoming a Christian again. The Pastors love the Lord and preach from the bible. They show the love of Christ in their lives and the way they treat people. The people I attend with cause me to practice the fruits of the Spirit. I think that is how the Lord wants it when we find difficulty in our church community. I practice long suffering, forgiveness, patience, just like I want them to practice it with me. Before saying anything to anyone, I take it to the Lord. I meet with the Pastor for advise, the proceed as my elder (Pastor) gives the wisdom God has so blessed them with.

Basically, I do my best to follow the Lord's way and what He has written in His word. It is not always easy. There have been many tears, much frustration, anger, learning to submit (crazy hard!!!) and eventually surrender to the Lord's way.

But, I hang in there because I think me practicing the fruits and God's way now, will aid me in the kingdom. He has told us to submit to our elders for a reason. Even though we don't like it, even though it causes us to confront wrong, even in our own community, It taught me to pray for my Pastor (PATIENTLY) and not run just because things got hard. Jesus causes all of it to work together for good. That has been the hardest thing for me to understand or even submit to. That God would cause me to go through so much trouble in the church - and not leave- and He would work it together for His own good. He has worked it together for good!

I just want to encourage those going through tough times at their church to submit to God and His way. If He wants you to leave, He will tell you. It is were the battle rages, there the commitment of the warrior is proven!
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Re: Your Story

Postby imirish01 on Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:05 pm

BTW, I know we all can speak of our hurts by people and church people in particular. But please show discernment regarding this topic. God bless and Merry Christmas!
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Re: Your Story

Postby DutchLady on Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:26 pm

Long story short:
We had a new pastor that followed teachings from a little book. After almost a year, a few people dedided to take a better look at the book, and found out it was not biblical at all. That's when he picked up the book, read it alongside of the bible, decided the group of people was right, and made it public that he made a mistake and he wasn't going to follow the teachings in that book anymore. Now half of the church wanted him to be fired, the other half wanted to stay on. The fighting started, half the church members never came back and took the pastor with them.
Me and my parents were neutral like Zwitzerland, along with a few others. But my parents decided they didn't want anything to do with the whole situation anymore, as they were not really 'allowed' to have a neutral position, they left because of the drama. I went with them.
Currently I have no church at all. As soon as I get a driver's liscence, I'm going to a fantastic one in Amsterdam. :)
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Re: Your Story

Postby soonverysoon on Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:15 am

We went to a church and like it ok. Until one day they put a women up to tell us what God had told her to tell us. Only thing the women was gay. That and what I found out they were teaching my daughters ages 7, 9 and 10 at the time. Seems the Sunday school teacher was teaching them from a book about how people had died and gone to hell and then came back. :eek: to tell the story of what hell was like. Bunch of New Age stuff and really gross junk. I could not leave fast enough.

Then there was a church we just loved. But they had very strict rules everyone must follow that had nothing to do with the Bible. Then they started that Celebrate Recovery thing. And only did out reach for the people who belonged to their kind of church. I was willing to follow the dumb dress rules because I really like the church and the pastor. But no way was I ok with only having out reach to their own kind. I did not know much about the Celebrate Recovery thing but I had hear it was not all that good. No one care or ever question anything. If the pastor said do it then you did it. I could not go along with that.

But the worst church I went to was the one where the pastor told us there was memory genes and we could remember the things all our ancestors had been through. That Judas had use the silver he got for Jesus to buy a field. When I knew he had thrown it down. He said an old man had died but when his granddaughter needed a down payment for her house he came back [like a ghost] and gave her the money on the day she needed it. He believe in all kinds of new age stuff. They did yoga and meditation stuff. And this was suppose to be a Christian church.

But I am not sorry for any of the churches I tried. In everyone one of them I learn stuff. Some force me to study harder to prove what I knew was the truth in God's word. Others would have a lesson or word that would open my eyes to something I had never seen. And then there were the people I would meet and became friends with. Those who touched my life in some way. Even in the worst churches I was always blessed in some way or was able to help someone else.

Even now I am going to a church I am not sure about yet. We shall see.


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Re: Your Story

Postby Finaldash on Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:44 am

I wrote a quick correspondence to my pastor a couple of weeks ago.
Here's what I wrote:
Dear Pastor (edit),
I have a family of five that calls Mariners it's home. We are sheep that are hungry for the word. I feel like the truth of the Gospel has not been declared for the thousands of members that are here.
I am not sure what percentage are the sheep from the wolves that are there but they are hungry for the Truth to be preached.

The recent series you have of the "advent" gives you so much opportunity to share that we are being saved from hell, but you choose to ignore that important matter.
I am confident that you know what I am referring to... because I know that you know the Truth. But are choosing to withhold it.

We always say that people are not truly really saved unless they are aware that they are truly lost. That's why you can't just preach about peripheral reasons and not deal with the real issue. "Make you feel good about yourself", that's not the Gospel!!
The Gospel is: He wants to deliver you from your sins, which are going to condemn you to eternal hell. Until a person understands the reality of their lostness and fully comes to grips with that.... and they have sinned against God and violated God's law ... and they cannot remedy that... and that they are headed for hell... that they will never have purpose for this life or any meaning in this life, especially in the life to come apart from the salvation of Jesus Christ, they will never reach a level of desperation. Which will drive them to a true salvation.
The sheep are truly hungry.

David


I thought it was quite sad that he had to dig almost 2 years worth of sermons to find one that he thought would satisfy me. This is his response:
David-

Thanks for your perspective. You might want to listen to the message titled Hell. I gave the message on February 24, 2008. I think you would enjoy it.

Grace and truth,

(edit)

I was there that day and he purposely avoided the physical suffering of hell. Only to focus on the spiritual separation. I thought it shouldve been both.

This mega-church was convenient for us since it was only a block away. My family are now venturing outside our neighborhood and have started visiting Chuck Smith's and John MacArthur's church.
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Re: Your Story

Postby Reconciled on Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:14 am

Hi imirish01

There is nothing wrong with submitting to authority, but if the authority asks someone to submit to something that goes against scripture then that is wrong. People really need to know the bible so that they are not led astray. Most people in a church really don’t know what is going on in the minds of their leadership until they become one of the leadership and most people just are not that involved. Many times even the leadership does not know what they are getting into when they bring new programs, guest speakers, books, studies and other things into the church. People need to be good stewards and research the background of new things that are brought in. Each individual is accountable to God for what He has entrusted to them and church leadership must be held accountable according to biblical standards.

And the word accountability is one of the most misused discipleship tools in the church today. It is fine when it is used for encouragement and building up, but all too often in many of the churches that have begun to drift it is a form of control. And if it has become a form of control it should be a warning sign that the church has lost its focus and purpose.
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Re: Your Story

Postby ndtruth on Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:02 am

My story...

Brought up Anglican (that's Episcopal, for North Americans). Also attended Methodist. And Baptist. And several others. I am talking attendance and "membership" here - not just a visit.
As I grew older, I started to read more and more of the Bible. And I started to ask questions. Like why the Anglican church never wanted to make any comment on Gays taking leadership roles in the church. Or why in the methodist church all the "big folks" drive vehicles that cost much $$$ while the mortgages for the buildings can hardly be paid. But mostly serious issues such as why is not the Truth of Christ taught to us - why no sermons on Hell? Why no information on the coming storm?
I have been patient, and I have volunteered in these churches, but have always come up to an invisible wall. NO! Not today. Maybe next year.

In short, as long as you want to keep the status quo, all will be well, but if you start asking questions - prepare to be disciplined. I am now a firm believer in the existence of Christ's true church. Which is not a building, or a religion, rather, that God is my Father, and He has provided for me in the true sacrifice of his son, Jesus, and I can repent, I can come directly to Him with my sins, and He will forgive. I also can Know HIM personally, reading for myself the things that have been written in the Word, and most of all - I have found my "church" in my day to day association with other like minded Christians everywhere - on the streets, on the bus, even on the internet, (like this site), and yes, even in some of the churches that I have left.

Is it bad that I am hungry? That I want more? Should I be OK with just sitting around and hearing the same sermons week after week? I feel like the storm is coming, and the shepherds are not preparing the sheep.

My 2cents today...
:(
"If you just, put your trust, in the ALMIGHTY GOD, I know He will - He will direct your path"
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Re: Your Story

Postby jgilberAZ on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:11 pm

.


http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtop ... 33&t=51910

After many attempts to try and get our pastor to reconcile (to no avail), and while he continued to denigrate those who had left (they left because his actions didn't match his words (or scripture)), we decided that we could no longer sit under his teaching.

It's been hard. We've lost many friends. The pastor teaches that if you associate with those who have left his church you will lose the ability to rightly divide the Word. So, we've been shunned by almost all our friends we had at our old church.

But, God is faithful. We have found a new church that teaches the Word, and they are making us feel welcome.

- Jeff

.
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
.
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Re: Your Story

Postby Just_Betsy on Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:37 pm

We left a large church about a year and a half ago. There had been a gradual drift into Warren-ism, and then a kamikaze dive into political shenanigans and nepotism within leadership. The preaching, if you could call it that, became a joke.

I have heard (though cannot confirm through personal experience) that the leadership STILL denigrates those who left, even making statements like, "If you leave this church, you're divorcing yourself from the body of Christ." Their warnings aren't working well...attendance and giving went down so low that last I heard they were not able to keep the lights on on the upper floor.

We were blessed to immediately find a small Baptist church that is bold in proclaiming uncompromising truth. I have more respect for our pastor than I have had for any previous pastor in my life (and I've been a churchgoer from birth). Many "refugees" from my old church are members there as well. The fellowship has been richer and deeper than I have known elsewhere. But I regret that my "happy ending" has not been experienced by so many on this board. Good churches must truly be hard to find.

All I can say is, don't give up. My experience is that there are good churches out there, rare as they may be. And they are worth finding. Solo Christianity is sometimes the only option, but it is certainly not preferable to true fellowship with other believers where that's available.

My only warning is this: Don't look for a perfect church. There are none. Look for the essentials, and forgive lesser faults. Leadership and laity are human beings.

May everyone here soon be blessed with the fellowship of other true believers in a local body!
Betsy

Persecution is coming. Of COURSE it is. The only question is, will we remember that it is a privilege to bear His reproach? Will we count it all joy that we are counted worthy to suffer with Him? Will we love? Or will we get belligerent and hateful toward our enemies, in defiance of our Lord's command and example?
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Re: Your Story

Postby ndtruth on Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:01 pm

Betsy, Thanks for your story.
I for one will not give up. Like many, many others, I am certainly not trying to find a church that is perfect, just one that will stick to the basics. Some things I am perfectly willing to disagree with but still keep communion with that body, but of late things have gone downhill. It seems like no one is willing to preach/practice the basics we can all agree on - rather they put serious emphasis on the little things.
Give you an example: YAC has appeared in my community (Yet another church), and they stopped by my yard to invite me to their worship. Everything sounded ok at first, but then I quickly found out that their church does not believe in using instruments in worship - not only that, but classified such a thing as sin against God. No piano? No guitar? I can understand the other extreme is just as bad (Entire loud rock band, for example) but NO music at all? So they just sing sans music and will clap though, on occasion.
This is what I am talking about. Who said we cannot sing with music? And this example is typical of just about all churches
today. Don't eat this. Only worship on Sunday. Only worship on Saturday. Give me your tithe (another issue).
Don't think - OBEY. Are we not all equals in Christ?
I thirst...

ND :wink:
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Re: Your Story

Postby revelation12eleven on Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:45 pm

I fellowship at what I would call a "healthy" church, for the most part. There are no perfect churches because sinful and flawed people are in them. I have a few things I would like to see different about my church, but the most important thing to me is that the pastor has a high view of scripture. Our ladies Bible study is great too. My sister on the other hand just left her church. The pastor came three years ago and it finally surfaced that he was emergent. Low view of scripture. Not into Bible study. Not into doctrine. Wanted to show R-rated movies on Sunday evenings to "learn about the culture." I sat under his teaching of Matthew 24 a year ago and he spiritualized the whole second coming of Christ. The sad thing, a couple of months ago, he announced that the church was now headed in the right direction and he had plans to send others from the church into other churches and do the same. Apostasy is written all over this guy...
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Re: Your Story

Postby Reconciled on Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:25 am

Is there anyone here who has been FORCED out of a church and had their character attacked in an attempt to discredit them because they have spoken out against false teachings, false teachers, and other misleading practices?
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Re: Your Story

Postby imirish01 on Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:05 pm

Good day reconciled,

I was listening to a preacher on television yesterday. He spoke of the story of Joseph. After many years of being in prison, he emerged not bitter, but seeking to cover his brothers offence by saying, "It was not you who did this to me, it was God." In fact, Joseph covered his brothers sins, by kicking out others would not understand, prior to telling his brothers (one on one) that he had forgiven them. Years later, when Jacob died, the brothers were again frightened that Joseph would remember their sin and seek to destroy them.Instead, Joseph once again said he had forgiven them and explained he would still cover their sin with forgiveness.

I know how one can be hurt by those we expect not to hurt us. I know how hard it is to forgive. But God clearly wants us to forgive those who offend us or hurt us.

Jesus did not bring up that the apostles fled away during His time of trial. Jesus forgave. He restored Peter.

Anyway, again I know how hard this is. The Lord will help you forgive.
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Re: Your Story

Postby Reconciled on Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:30 pm

I do agree with you wholeheartedly that we are to forgive those who wrong us. We should always be willing to forgive. The question was not asked with any malice or bitterness. Let me try to explain.

The point of my question was maybe somewhat unclear it was not asked in bitterness, resentment or anger but out of a desire to gather information to help others. You see I believe that as we move further into the last of the last days what the world sees as the institutional church will fall into apostasy with the compromise of scripture and false teachers and teachings preaching a different gospel. I believe that the harlot church of Revelation will come out of the apostate church. And as Paul set an example for us we are to speak out against such activity to warn and protect as many people as possible. Of course in our doing so we will be persecuted, slandered and discredited for speaking out against compromise, false teachings and teachers. Ultimately God’s true church is pure and holy and will be separated from the apostate church. I believe God is making it difficult for His true church to remain within the growing apostate church.

I have through the years collected a large number of stories from across the country of people who have spoken up and refused to compromise God’s Word only to have their church leaders say they were the ‘authority’ and to submit or else. The ‘or else’ being those who spoke out against them had their lives attacked with false propaganda, slander and discrediting claims ultimately forcing them out of that particular church.

Almost all the people in these stories are humble God loving individuals who only wanted to do what was right and honor God’s Word. All too often those in leadership who forced these people out feel they have done no wrong and will justify their actions. Interestingly, even as Scripture says we are to forgive those who wrong us; Scripture also says that if you know of one who is holding something against you, you are to go them and make it right. But, those who force these people out never attempt to make it right, they go about continuing to offer their sacrifices as if nothing were wrong.

In reference to Joseph’s brothers they exhibited remorse and sorrow for their actions thus enabling forgiven and reconciliation to take place. (Also, the story of Joseph is a great example of God’s predestination and foreknowledge in our lives. But that is another thread.)

As I said earlier I am collecting stories from individuals with the intent to educate and forewarn others who may speak out against the compromise, false teachers and teachings.

Perhaps, if someone should feel afraid to post publicly on the board they can IM or email me their or another’s story. I am not asking for names just the situation and methods used. I hope to very soon complete my research and publish the overall information and findings in an effort to educate and warn as many as possible.

We don’t ever think it will happen to us.
But what will you choose to do on the day if and when your pastor or church leadership compromises God’s Word?
Will you shrug it off and go long with it, or will you speak out against it?
What about others in the church who were unaware? Will you warn them?
Just a heads up, if you do speak out against it and the pastor or leadership thinks you are a threat to their authority and position, be ready for it to all hit the fan.
The question is - do you know what to look for and what to do should it happen?
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Re: Your Story

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:44 am

Is there anyone here who has been FORCED out of a church and had their character attacked in an attempt to discredit them because they have spoken out against false teachings, false teachers, and other misleading practices?


**After consideration I have deleted my story, believing as others have suggested perhaps it was not the most loving approach to post here in a public forum.

I will only say that my husband and I were forced out of our church, that wrongdoing at the hands of leadership was behind it and I believe their spiritual immaturity and lack of discernment largely contributed to the reason they acted as they did.


Orignal post continues:

I think this whole church growth movement and subsequent purpose driven model has led to a perpetual state of spiritual immaturity in the church. The seeker model does not propagate maturity. When the focus becomes numbers rather than preaching the word of truth the church is open to corruption. Also I believe that seminaries in the US are watering down the truth of God's word and are turning out men (and women) who don't have a real grasp of the doctrines of the faith. It has been a slow and subtle decline. I have heard the saying that the church is one generation away from extinction and I think we are there, that we might be the last generation that will see truth preached in our pulpits. We led youth group for five years and I can tell you the youth today see truth as relative, they have bought into the whole ecumenical view that says no one has a corner on truth. It has been engrained by the culture we live in and without the truth of God's word to combat it we will lose this generation.

Please if you have teens- talk to them about the truth of God's word, if you are in a church that is not preaching the truth stand up to it, do what is right in God's eyes -in love of course. If everyone walks away there won't be anyone who lives the word left in our churches. I'm not sure that the apostasy can be stopped, likely not, but we must stand for the truth whatever the cost. My husband and I are still pursuing reconciliation with the leadership of our former church, I am not sure if it will happen but we must try.

Pray for us

RT
Last edited by Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your Story

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:46 am

Is there anyone here who has been FORCED out of a church and had their character attacked in an attempt to discredit them because they have spoken out against false teachings, false teachers, and other misleading practices?


Oh Yes, several churches, force was not used but I was told to leave, I was told not to share the Truth with the church....everytime I tried to help some people in the correction of false teachings, the elders or pastors start attacking me. I got yelled at, they told me I am not going to change whats going on in church...it is sad....and many of the churches I tried helping didn't want to hear the real Truth, they are too caught up with prosperity, healing, tongues and all the garbage, no real ministry or helping the poor, etc....I have my own church now, my family and friends.....
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Your Story

Postby plalgum on Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:49 am

:lol:
This is my church,and i was wondering what you folks think of it if any would like to have a look.
http://www.addiscombebaptistchurch.com/index.html
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Re: Your Story

Postby imirish01 on Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:31 pm

Oh Yes, several churches, force was not used but I was told to leave, I was told not to share the Truth with the church....every time I tried to help some people in the correction of false teachings, the elders or pastors start attacking me. I got yelled at, they told me I am not going to change whats going on in church...it is sad....and many of the churches I tried helping didn't want to hear the real Truth, they are too caught up with prosperity, healing, tongues and all the garbage, no real ministry or helping the poor, etc....I have my own church now, my family and friends.....

So, if the church belongs to Jesus, then is He is not wise enough to oversee and take care of what was born from Him? If He has set a pastor over a church and the pastor or elders are going sideways, is the Lord sleeping and not noticing?

When we as the church, criticize that what was born from the Lord, do we not judge Him? Even if a pastor is going sideways, is it not the Lord's responsibility to bring the pastor around, or get rid of him? Can we forgive a terrible offense?
Yes, love covers!

Whenever I hear criticism of a church, I hear "Jesus, you obviously are not wise enough, strong enough, just enough, to take care of your church!" That is why, we as human, are judging you, as God!

Those who criticize can easily say, "I'm not judging God, I am just saying what HIS pastor is doing wrong." God set over us pastor, evangelists, teachers, etc. and we (church) seem to have no problem publically criticizing what Jesus has given us.

There is nothing wrong with praying and saying that you are having a problem with a pastor, but keep it quiet between you and the Lord.
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Re: Your Story

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:00 pm

Religions and denominations does not belong to Jesus, sadly there are thousands christian denominations, WHY?
There are many wolves in sheep clothing in the church today spreading their "snake oil", therefore as a real Christian, I have a right to stand up for Jesus and rescue some people from being deceived! Jesus has called me to show people the real truth so they don't get trapped into the false doctrines, and Jesus did warn of the false doctrines.

In Christ, Woody
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Your Story

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:23 pm

When a pastor who does not change from his wicked ways, we have every right to judge him through the authority of God and to warn the church goers of the false teachings etc....

Of course I always pray for the pastors,teachers, etc.....
In Christ Always,
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Re: Your Story

Postby Reconciled on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:12 pm

The apostle Paul never had a problem publicly warning people of false teachers – a public rebuke for a public teaching ... Just something to consider.

On a different note … many pastors are in the position they are in today not because they have answered a calling of God, but because they have fulfilled the requirements of an organization. When organizational authority under the guise of constituted church authority dictates the direction and methods of a church or pastor it is no longer the Word of God leading the way. And too many pastors are afraid of losing their jobs if they don’t follow the instructions of the organization they are a part of, so they compromise their beliefs and suddenly they have compromised their integrity and worse yet, in most cases God’s Word ... and thus the downward spiral begins.
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Re: Your Story

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:31 am

When we as the church, criticize that what was born from the Lord, do we not judge Him? Even if a pastor is going sideways, is it not the Lord's responsibility to bring the pastor around, or get rid of him? Can we forgive a terrible offense?
Yes, love covers!

Whenever I hear criticism of a church, I hear "Jesus, you obviously are not wise enough, strong enough, just enough, to take care of your church!" That is why, we as human, are judging you, as God!

Those who criticize can easily say, "I'm not judging God, I am just saying what HIS pastor is doing wrong." God set over us pastor, evangelists, teachers, etc. and we (church) seem to have no problem publically criticizing what Jesus has given us.

There is nothing wrong with praying and saying that you are having a problem with a pastor, but keep it quiet between you and the Lord.


This is not what scripture teaches, we are in fact mandated to judge those within the church if the offense dictates it, the issue in the Corinthian church was immorality, 1 Corinthians 5:11 spells out under what circumstances this is to occur, with so-called brothers who are immoral, covetous, revilers, drunkards or swindlers.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13
12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

1 Corinthians 6:1-6
1Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
2Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
4So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
5I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
6but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?

Matthew 18:15-17
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed.
17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

1 Timothy 5:19-22
19Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.
20Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
22Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

Romans 16:17-18
17Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
18For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.


Yes the Lord is powerful and able to take care of His church, and He does that through us. We are to hold each other accountable in love of course, and love should motivate us to go to our brother when we see sin in his life, and this includes the Pastor. Because we love one another we desire to bring accountability to each other when we stray away from the truth and fall into sin, I would hope that if my fellow believer sees me in sin that he will lovingly come to me to help reconcile me to God and to anyone else I may have sinned against. If I am rebellious and refuse to repent then it is the duty of the church to discipline me and ultimately if I have committed a sin of immorality then I am to be put out of the church, if my sin is not immorality then I am to be treated as an unbeliever. Of course caution must be exercised when following these principles and I have seen them abused and misapplied many times.

It is not wrong to judge a man's actions, though we can not know and judge his heart. There is a difference. If you are having an affair with the church secretary, that is obvious -you have acted in sin. But I cannot accuse you of lust or pride because we are all guilty of sins of the heart, we have all lusted, we all have pride,in that regard we are not to judge. However we can judge one another's actions. This of course only applies to those within the local church and with those who claim to be believers (Paul calls them "so called brothers"). Does this mean we go around looking for people's sins to accuse them? No, but when someone we care about sins we are to go to them in love and help them see their sin that they might repent of it. When someone is teaching false doctrine, it defiles the whole church, we are to call them out again in love and in private first. In the Old Testament sins of rebellion were punishable by death(separation), the person was taken outside the camp and stoned. While other sins were atoned for by offerings(reconciliation). In the New Testament those who rebel are left to God to deal with, either by putting them outside the church or by treating them as an unbeliever(separation). If the person repents they continue in fellowship(reconciliation). The whole reason action is taken is to bring the sinner to repentance, if they refuse then they are rebelling against God and that is when you leave this to the Lord to deal with him or her.

If we take the position that Jesus is in charge of His church and therefore we don't have to intervene when someone does wrong, then it is also true that if Jesus is in control then I don't have to do anything at all, I don't have to share the gospel, I don't have to use my gifts,I don't have to pray because after all It's His church and He will do what He wants with it, He can orchestrate everything He doesn't need me. That is the logical conclusion of that line of thinking. I am not trying to be critical here, but I have watched local churches slide into serious trouble because of the notion that the Pastor is somehow above accountability and because people in the church were waiting for God to do something while I believe that He was waiting for them to do something.Contrary to what you have said when I hear criticism of a church I wonder if the people are not wise enough, strong enough, just enough, to take care of their church! Ultimately the universal church is in God's hand, but the Local church He has put in our hands.

If you wait for God to intervene, IMO you've waited too long. Read the letters to the churches in Revelation, Jesus warns most of them to repent or else. When He intervenes it is because they failed to repent. Why is it that we think God expects us to work as a body to do all the easy stuff, all the positive stuff and not the hard difficult things? We are to equip the body, edify and build each other up, to make disciples, that includes confessing our sins to one another, keeping each other accountable, suffering with each other, mourning over sin together. Not just witnessing, teaching, preaching, singing and praying. And the bottom line is all of it needs to be done in love-for God's glory and not our own.

James 5:19-20
19My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.



1 Peter 4:8-11
8Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.
9Be hospitable to one another without complaint.
10As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.


RT
Last edited by Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Your Story

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:54 am

Very nicely explained, Resurrection Torchlight!
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Re: Your Story

Postby imirish01 on Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:58 am

I agree with you RT, that we are to go to the person, in love, and speak with them about their sins. Privately! If that does not work, we are to bring witnesses. We are not to stir up strife on the internet regarding past hurts, perceived or real hurts and offenses. We should show restraint in our tongues or typing fingers.

Reminding ourselves about 1 Cor 13 before confronting someone is a good thing. Praying for what the Lord would have us say is wise. Nobody likes to confront, except those who are prideful and ready to throw stones. They scare me the most as Christians.

Once again, I am not saying don't confront wrong teaching, attitudes or sins. Just show some love, God's wisdom and choose forgiveness over judgment (because we are a people who need much forgiveness). Quit gossiping on the internet. Stop sowing seeds of discord among the brethren. Instead, sow love, forgiveness, kindness...all the fruits of the spirit. Listen to the Spirit as He guides you to confront wrong. Do it humbly with the leadership. If the Holy Spirit calls you to speak to a leader do so, but then step back and let Him do His work.
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Re: Your Story

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:44 pm

I think we've mixed several different scenarios here...personal faults/sins, gossip, and false teachings. Yes, we are to approach privately one who sins. No, we are not to gossip; i.e. spend time spreading information that no one needs to know. But we absolutely should expose ministries who consistently teach and twist scripture to enhance an unscriptural agenda.

For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. Titus 1:10-11

While the internet can be used for gossip, I don't find that present in this thread. And it is a very useful tool for exposing false doctrine and ministries which are (to use Paul's words) "teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain."
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Re: Your Story

Postby imirish01 on Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:30 pm

But who is edified regarding a minister we don't know or a church not named. We hear the teller’s story of how mistreated they were, while they did only the right thing (their story) and we never get to see or understand the entire tale.

It's like if I sat down with an acquaintance and I tell this person how terrible my mother in-law is. This person does not know my mother in-law, but sides with me because we share some views. Am I wrong for gossiping about my mother in-law, even though what I say might be true? Do I present well as a Christian, gossiping about another person?

Completely different story if I ask this acquaintance for assistance with my mother in-law. It is a matter of the heart.

If one were to ask someone/or the board itself, for assistance with a difficult matter, I don’t' see any problem with it. But when you ask them to tell dirty laundry stories regarding another Christian, I find it scary.

I try and practice the fruits of the Spirit (not well most of the time). When someone comes up to me and says, "tell me about the time you were offended," I see that as Satan trying to get my mind off of the things of God.

All of us have stories of offense. It's a fact of life. People in church offend us and hurt us, sometimes very deeply. It may take years to get over. But re-hashing it with Christians I don't even know, don't understand what role I played in the matter, and have been offended themselves, is not a wise choice.

I have been hurt and deeply offended by Christians. But, I want more than anything to be like my Lord in this matter. I want to practice forgiveness.
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Re: Your Story

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:39 pm

Hello imirish01,

I will have to go back and read from the beginning, but my memory tells me that what was related were not people who were offended by other believers....but rather assemblies that were promoting false teachings. I could be wrong, but if not, that serves as a warning imho, for believers to carefully listen to what's being taught and compare that to scripture. These stories alert us to a timeframe that scripture tells us will be characterized by deception and deceit.
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Re: Your Story

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:04 am

All of us have stories of offense. It's a fact of life. People in church offend us and hurt us, sometimes very deeply. It may take years to get over. But re-hashing it with Christians I don't even know, don't understand what role I played in the matter, and have been offended themselves, is not a wise choice.

I have been hurt and deeply offended by Christians. But, I want more than anything to be like my Lord in this matter. I want to practice forgiveness.


I agree it is a fine line, however consider some of the "stories" in scripture, for instance Stephen, he was falsely accused by the Synagogue of the freedmen and stoned. They spread rumors about him saying that he spoke against Moses and God, they stirred up the people against him, they brought forth false witnesses. Stephen confronted them and demonstrated to them that this was not the case and he called them on their own hypocrisy, as a result he was stoned.

Paul also shares details of his mistreatment by so-called religious leaders. We are not talking about personal offenses here such as you described about your mother in law, we are talking about offenses against God and what is right and true according to His word. We are not talking about personal preferences for example- My mother in law's taste in clothing is horrid, we are not talking about personality clashes such as- I think my mother in law is cranky, while her other in- laws think she's sweet. We are talking about sin, wrongdoing that has not been repented of which in scripture is rebellion against God, these sins when brought to the attention of the one who committed it, ultimately goes public to the church if they continue to rebel. We didn't personally know Stephen or his accusers, yet the Lord felt it was important for us to have an account of the wrongdoing enacted against him. Why? As an example to us, of perseverance. Of boldness to confront false teachers and hypocrisy. Of the hope that lies before those who speak the truth of God- Jesus Christ. And also of forgiveness, the last thing Stephen said was to ask the Lord not to hold their sin against them, he followed the example of Jesus. Who also took a stand against false teaching and hypocrisy and when those against him incited the crowds to crucify Him, He also prayed to the Father to forgive them. Forgiveness does not however change the facts of what happened, the recounting of events that we have in scripture.

If the bible recounts such circumstances then why would it be wrong for me to recount my circumstances? Of course we need to be careful in how we do so, we can do so with the wrong spirit, one of vengeance and out of a desire to hurt those who hurt us or out of bitterness. We must recount what is true, and can be substantiated by facts not what we think are motives behind their actions against us.

I shared my story for several reasons- first because someone asked me to, second because frankly I am hurt and looking for encouragement and prayer, third- in the hopes that perhaps others will take a stand for the truth even if it means personal cost to themselves. My intent was not to "re-hash" anything. It was simply to relate my experience. You do not need to know me, or what role I played in it all, I am not asking anyone to render judgment for or against myself or those who wronged me. I have simply defined what I believe they did wrong and why I believe it is wrong which IMO goes back to accountability. The offense in my mind is offensive to me because those in position of influence in the church acted with bias and hypocrisy, as their actions show, this is not only offensive to me, but is offensive to God, whose word speaks against such actions. In sharing my story maybe someone out there will see themselves in a similar situation and speak up against it. If perhaps one person could be moved to repentance because of it, then praise the Lord!

The church is sliding down a slippery slope into apostasy, and ideas like yours will allow it to keep on going, because that line of thinking vilifies those who speak out against the wrongs done in the name of Christ. That IMO is exactly where the enemy wants us- to be silent so that he might divide and conquer from within.

RT

(edited to add to paragraph 4)
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Re: Your Story

Postby imirish01 on Fri Feb 05, 2010 5:29 pm

Thanks for your post RT.

My opinion does not allow apostasy to go on. It is our job to call out apostasy when we see it, but do so in a biblical way. I was thinking about this post this morning while getting ready for work. I see our responsibility to judge wrongdoers as a person being given the keys to a Ferrari. You can give a four year old the keys and it's disastrous. You can give a 16 year old and it can be equally disastrous. But a mature driver would know how to handle the car - with wisdom. We seem ready and willing to jump on the judgment bandwagon and talk oh so politely (just providing information to the world on a blog) about what someone should be doing, while we ourselves sin by being...pick a sin, any sin. It reminds me of someone who is ready and more than willing to throw the stones at Stephen, while they themselves are full of sin.

Forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, person to person, would give and does give one plenty of opportunity to be comforted. I know the hurt that a pastor or leader can leave one with. I know! Capping on pastors or other leaders seems to be a favorite pastime on this board. I will never, ever feel bad for sticking up for a leader because it is such a hard job. They are spiritually attacked in a level most of us don't know. They suffer double judgment (probably by people)and then by God (more righteous judgment).

It is so easy for us to choose judgment over love, that we run to judgment and shun love. WE HAVE A RIGHT TO JUDGE AND BY GOLLY, WE WILL JUDGE!!!! All I am saying is what about love? What about going to your brother in love? Even if you are kicked out of the church because they refuse to listen, what about love? Would love post their sins? Would love gossip?

I also believe we can't compare Paul writing inspired by the Holy Spirit as a reason to post our stories on the net. We can tell our stories, but do so in love. If I am judged for talking about love and forgiveness and not gossiping, so be it.

Trust me, I did not keep quiet when I had my trouble. But, I did my best to do things biblically, which according to how the Spirit moved me, was to sometimes keep my mouth shut! Now, He moves me to forgive. Once again, it’s the heart of the matter. Me... far from perfect and still working out my salvation.

I hope I am not coming off as “We all have to keep our mouths shut.” I really don’t believe it and I am sorry if it comes off that way. The Spirit is moving me to forgive and so it seems to be my heart for every post. I just ask for caution in the use of our tongues.

Best of luck to your RT. I know how hard it is to get hurt so deeply and when you don't expect it.
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Re: Your Story

Postby jcisking on Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:24 am

My husband and I spoke up at our church against some things that were wrong. We felt the leading of the HS to do so. Our hearts desire and greatest hope was that all who heard us would repent and turn away from the apostasy and get back to the true Gospel. Things cound not have turned out any more disaterous than they did.

I do not have the desire to go into any details about our experience, but would like to share something I learned along the way. When someone is teaching a false doctrine, it is to be rebuked publicly, as in the case of Paul coming against Peter for following the Judaisers. I believe this is so that those who may have heard the bad teaching would have the benefit of hearing the truth. The teaching about going to someone privately in love is for a personal offense.

I believe that what we see today is the "peace and safety" that we hear about in the Bible. People are too afraid to stand up for truth in the name of love. Well, who do you love? Do you love the people at your church or do you love the Lord enough to stand up for Him and defend His Word? I have been praying for years that God's people would have courage. If you examine the things that Jesus said to the Pharisees, it doesn't sound so loving. That doesn't mean that it wasn't. The point is that you cannot judge a message bearer's heart or motives by how the message sounds or how it is received. The problem is our skewed idea about what is loving. Truth is always the most loving no matter how it comes across because it is the ONLY thing that can set us free.
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Re: Your Story

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:44 pm

Hi imirish01,

I want you to know that I do appreciate what you are saying about love, love should be what motivates us to confront our brothers sin. perhaps you are right to suggest that posting here in a public forum is not the most loving way to deal with these issues. After considering what you have said I am going to delete my OP. However I do not think it wrong to speak about those who have very public ministries and are false teachers, we are to expose the wickedness among us. But we should do so realizing that but for the grace of God- there I would be right along side them, and we should do so with humility and love, and keep these in prayer that the Lord might bring them to repentance that their soul might find redemption.

Thank you for your candor

RT
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Re: Your Story

Postby imirish01 on Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:30 pm

Thanks RT.

Honestly, I think I am missing the forest through the trees because of my need to forgive and my reluctance to do so. It seems I doth protest too much about judging! I am sorry if I came off too strong. I appreciate your (and others) thoughts! I feel like one of those TV preachers who preach against something, while they themselves hide their sin. Talk about conviction.

Have a great day! Go Colts!
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Re: Your Story

Postby Reconciled on Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:24 pm

I knew I ran across this once before in my research and it just happen to come from Holly’s articles. So these are her words of understanding … What do you think?

Holly Pivec once wrote in an article titled ‘Touch Not the Lord’s Anointed’


“…Many Bible passages warn us to carefully evaluate church leaders’ teachings and actions by Scripture.

No church leader is above such scrutiny, according to the Bible.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t respect our leaders. The Bible teaches us to respect them. But showing them respect doesn’t mean that we don’t test their teachings and actions by Scripture. Our first loyalty is to the Bible, not them.”

In an article called: ‘Naming Names,’ Ms. Pivec says:

“The Biblical Principle for Addressing Sin

Here’s what the Bible teaches about addressing sin in the church:

• A private rebuke is given for private sin. Matthew 18:15-17

• A public rebuke is given for public sin. Galatians 2:11-14. 1 Corinthians 5:1-13. 1 Corinthians 5:1,

Teachers who bring false doctrines into the church must be confronted publicly because their teachings are public.

Many times the false teachers, themselves, are the ones who teach their followers the misapplication of Matthew 18:15-17. They use this as an effective technique to silence criticism.

What the Bible Teaches About Dealing With False Teaching in the Church

Here are some of the things the Bible teaches, specifically, about dealing with false teaching.

• Name Names: 2 Tim. 1:15, 2:17, 3:8, 4:14

• Warn the church publicly what the false teachers are teaching. 2 Timothy 2:16-18

• Silence the false teachers. Titus 1:10-11

• Refute the false teachers. Titus 1:9

• Do not give false teachers a platform or otherwise support them in their ministries. 2 John 1:10-11”
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Re: Your Story

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:51 pm

I agree with Holly's understanding of scripture in regard to publicly exposing error, false teachings, and abuse within the church.

She wrote another article of the same title here where she further expounds on this principle. I highly recommend her teachings on this site.
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Re: Your Story

Postby LandscapeMan on Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:26 am

After a period of being determined to stick things out, my wife and I stopped attending the church where we were members. For a long time I thought that by staying there I would be able to make a diference but what I discovered was our church was in a state of change.

The church had brought in a pastor from CA. He graduated from Yale and thus holds intellectualism in high esteme. He followes the purpose driven model and patterns himself after are Rick Warren,Brian McClarin, Toni Campolo, and others of the same thought process.

This is the church that my wife attended as a child and she new many memebers. When we joined we immediately found our selves accepted and very comfortable amounst the members. We were incouraged that there were new members joining and the church was picking up as far as younger couples and enthusiasm was concerned.

It soon became obvious to me that that the pastor gave the newer members prority, and rarely if ever attended any events and activities that were initiated or involved the older established paritioners. As the youngers members numbers increased this became more obvious. Within the last couple of years I began to notice that he was appointing these new members to positions of decons and elders, and the more solid older members were being gently pushed from position of authority. I must say it has been a smooth and peaceful takeover. In that time he has changed the church organizational structure and even affiliated us with the Willow Creek Church ( I think that is correct).

In my efforts to understand why, I came to this conclusion. The older established members were just that, older. They wanted to come to worship stay in the groups they had been in, and were complacent to let the governing positions be turned over to the new membership. In other words they did not want to leave and find new churches and it was easier to sit back and relinquish control. They most likely did not want to split the church and saw new blood as good. I also have to say many of these people are unaware of what the purpose driven and emergent church models are about. I did try to speak to the matter and found that I was ignored. Because who knows more, me or a pastor educated at Yale.

The other program I found to be a problem was created by the associate pastor. It was an enviromental program whose ultimate goal was to help save the earth. As I told several members I do not have a problem with recycleing, and I think we have a responsibility to be good stwards, but I do not think it is more important to save batteries and ignore saving souls.

At the current time we are without a church. We have visited several, and have yet to find a home. I still see members occationally and they encourage us to come back, but I know it is not a good place for us. Some have told me that they feel the minister may leave, but by the time he does the members in charge will go out and bring in another of the same mold. In my opinion the damage is done.

The day I realised that we needed to step back was when I saw people that new very little theology or doctorine being elevated within the church while I was being ignored. The pastor new that my theology and his were different, and had I been a decon or elder I would not have given him a free pass on the things he wanted to do. It also became apparent that the church lacked real sound biblical teaching. In my opnion that was on purpose. Educated members cannot be manipulated and fall for lies easily.

We all know this all is a lie and a deception.

An interesting story that demonstrated this churches liberal veiw happened at a ceremony for confirmation. When the group of student ( all 12-15 years of age) where giving their group written statement of faith they all refered to God as "She". Even the one boy in the group. I could not help but shake my head and laugh.

As Michael Savage says Liberalism is a mental disorder.
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Re: Your Story

Postby burien1 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:15 pm

Landscapeman said;
An interesting story that demonstrated this churches liberal veiw happened at a ceremony for confirmation. When the group of student ( all 12-15 years of age) where giving their group written statement of faith they all refered to God as "She". Even the one boy in the group. I could not help but shake my head and laugh.

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Re: Your Story

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:35 pm

Thought this might be helpful for some who have tried unsuccessfully to reason with their pastor and/or others about false teachings or shortcomings in general:

Every Minister Needs Truth-Tellers Like Nathan
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