Mark Driscoll Rejects Emergent Label But Endorses Mysticism

[chatty-kathi]

In the March 4th issue from Lighthouse Trails Research, http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com ... 030408.htm, is an article called “Christian Post Says Mark Driscoll “Ditches” Emergent but Evidence Proves Otherwise”.

They have reposted their article, “Mark Driscoll Rejects McLaren But Embraces Contemplative”. I’m going to post it in part.

“A "Recommended Reading List" on Driscoll's website shows that Driscoll resonates with contemplative and emerging church leaders who teach and adhere to eastern-style meditation.

A complete list of the recommended books (about 85 altogether) has several titles in question (about 1/4 of the list). For instance, Driscoll includes three books by contemplative/centering prayer advocate Larry Crabb. In Crabb's book, The Papa Prayer, pg. 9, he says:

I've practiced centering prayer. I've contemplatively prayed. I've prayed liturgically....I've benefited from each, and I still do.

In 2002 Crabb wrote the foreword to a book written by David Benner. Benner's book, Sacred Companions, openly promotes the teachings of Merton and is actually a who's who of mystical and panenthestic writings such as atonement denier Alan Jones (Reimagining Christianity), Thomas Keating and a host of like-minded writers. In that foreword, Crabb said something that was in a sense prophetic of the emerging church. He stated:

The spiritual climate is ripe. Jesus seekers across the world are being prepared to abandon the old way of the written code for the new way of the Spirit (p. 9).

Benner's book is a manual for this new emerging way that throws out the old way (the biblical way). As an example of this, Benner praises a book by John Gorsuch titled An Invitation to the Spiritual Journey. Benner says, "This little book sparkles." In Gorsuch's book, the general gist of it is how mysticism is uniting all the world's religions. He makes specific reference to Swami Paramahansa Yogananda and comments that he was a great saint who brought many people to God. In the back of Gorsuch's book there are also Tibetan Buddhist meditations. Without a doubt, Gorsuch's book is a New Age book. It proclaims the validity of all religions and also that God is in everything and everybody. For Benner to say this book sparkles, means he embraces its views - more importantly, not just in an intellectual sense but in a mystical sense. So in essence, for Crabb to write the foreword to this book speaks for itself.

On Driscoll's list is author Gary Thomas. Thomas has been the subject of Lighthouse Trails articles for two reasons; one, because of his teaching on mantra meditation in his book Sacred Pathways, in which he states:

…centering prayer works like this: Choose a word (Jesus or Father, for example) as a focus for contemplative prayer. Repeat the word silently in your mind for a set amount of time (say, twenty minutes) until your heart seems to be repeating the word by itself, just as naturally and involuntarily as breathing. (p. 185)”

As part of being a "Berean", we have to look further to see who is being endorsed and quoted in order to see what is actually believed. (An excellent example of this would be Rick Warren.)

[DneprCowboy]

I've just spent a half-hour looking around Driscolls sight for this Crabb fella and came up with nothing. Maybe he ditched the dude?

[Finaldash]

I'm hoping this isn't how it is now. He was one of the churches I was going to check out when I move to Seattle.
Anyone know of a good one up there. One that teaches the TRUTH.?

[chatty-kathi]

Here is the latest, dated December 21, 2009 http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com ... 091221.htm ,

Mark Driscoll IS a Contemplative Proponent

Mark Driscoll is a name that has grown in popularity among evangelicals especially over the past few years. Somewhat known for his vulgar and crass language in public, he has been invited to speak at conferences by a wide assortment of Christian leaders-John Piper and Robert Schuller to name two. Driscoll also shared a platform this year at the Gospel Coalition National Conference with a number of respected Christian evangelical figures such as D.A. Carson, Erwin Lutzer, and Joshua Harris. Coming up in 2010, Driscoll has been invited by Rick Warren to speak at the Radicalis conference.

Although Driscoll, pastor of Mars Hill Fellowship in Seattle Washington, is said to have denounced certain aspects of the emergent church, Driscoll is a proponent of the main element behind the emerging church - contemplative prayer.

Presently, on Driscoll's website, The Resurgence (see whois info) is an article titled "How to Practice Meditative Prayer." The article is written by an Acts 29 (Driscoll's network of churches) pastor, Winfield Bevins. A nearly identical article on Driscoll's site, also by Bevins, is titled Meditative Prayer: Filling the Mind. Both articles show a drawing of a human brain. In this latter article, Bevins recognizes contemplative mystic pioneer Richard Foster:

What do we mean by meditative prayer? Is there such a thing as Christian meditation? Isn't meditation non-Christian? According to Richard Foster, "Eastern meditation is an attempt to empty the mind. Christian meditation is an attempt to fill the mind" (Celebration of Discipline). Rather than emptying the mind we fill it with God's word. We must not neglect a vital part of our Judeo-Christian heritage simply because other traditions use a form of meditation.

Bevins has got this very wrong, as does Richard Foster. Contemplative proponents say that, while the method practiced by Christian contemplatives and eastern-religion mystics may be similar (repeating a word or phrase over and over in order to eliminate distractions and a wandering mind), the Christian variety is ok because the mind isn't being emptied but rather filled. But in essence, both are emptying the mind (i.e., stopping the normal thought process). That is where the contemplatives say making a space for God to fill.

The Bevins' reference to Richard Foster is not the only contemplative marker on Mark Driscoll's site . In an article written by Driscoll himself, ironically titled Obedience, Driscoll tells readers to turn to Richard Foster and contemplative Gary Thomas. Driscoll states:

If you would like to study the spiritual disciplines in greater detail ... helpful are Celebration of Discipline, by Richard Foster, and Sacred Pathways, by Gary Thomas.

In Celebration of Discipline (1978 ed., p. 13), Richard Foster says that "we should all without shame enroll in the school of contemplative prayer." To understand Foster's meaning of "contemplative prayer," he has written a number of books that clearly show his propensity toward the mystics (such as John Main and Thomas Merton). Devotional Classics, Spiritual Classics, Meditative Prayer, Prayer: Finding the Heart's True Home are a few. His founding organization, Renovare, has a vast number of resources, articles, etc. that further substantiate our claims that Foster is a contemplative proponent.

As for Gary Thomas, in his book Sacred Pathways (the one Driscoll recommends), Thomas tells readers to repeat a word for 20 minutes in order to still the mind. This is the basic principle in all Eastern and occultic methods. This is not an idle charge. Anglican mystic Richard Kirby astutely observes in his book The Mission of Mysticism that with this spirituality the method differs little than that of occultism:

The meditation of advanced occultists is identical with the prayer of advanced mystics; it is no accident that both traditions use the same word for the highest reaches of their respective activities: contemplation (samadhi in yoga). p. 7

Driscoll is just one of many Christian figures whose contemplative propensities is being completely ignored or overlooked. For the sake of the Gospel, which contemplative spirituality negates by its very nature, we pray that believers will not look to those who follow and promote this spiritual deception.

[chatty-kathi]

From Driscoll’s blog is the list, http://theresurgence.com/series/Great_Books . Be sure and scroll to bottom, as there are three pages. As the article from Lighthouse Trails said, there are many on this list that teach contemplative prayer.

We are living in the time of the apostasy. The Christian churches are the vehicle to bring in the New Age Spirituality, the belief that we are all “gods”. Alice Bailey was a major New Age Prophetess who revealed:

"The goal of the New Age Movement has consistently been to bring in the Age of Aquarius when all will recognize 'the God with themselves.' A major step towards this in the words of the New Age prophetess Alice Bailey, is 'the regeneration of the churches.' Her vision was that... 'The Christian church in its many branches can serve as a St. John the Baptist, as a voice crying in the wilderness, and as a nucleus through which world illumination may be accomplished.' In a word, she desired the time when the 'Christian churches' would embrace the New Age concepts of illumination and self-realization. The New Age plan to bring in world peace cannot fully establish the Golden Age of Aquarius until Biblical Christianity is outlawed or destroyed."— Richard Bennett, Can Mysticism Lead to God

The restoration of the ancient, spiritual traditions includes contemplative prayer. This is also called entering the silence or centering prayer. It is achieved through repetition of a word, phrase, and/or breathing. It is in this state that the practitioner is told they are “gods”. Again from Alice Bailey:

The prime work of the church is to teach, and teach ceaselessly, preserving the outer appearance in order to reach the many who are accustomed to church usages ... the new religion [will] restore the ancient spiritual landmarks, to eliminate that which is nonessential, and to reorganize the entire religious field--again in preparation for the restoration of the Mysteries. These Mysteries, when restored, will unify all faiths.

[Justasheep]

I suggest caution in a rush to judgement with regards to Mark Driscoll and Author Gary Thomas. My own pastor recently launched a partnership with Mark and his church to assess the need of the churches in Haiti and aid them in the rebuilding process. With Gary Thomas, his book Sacred Marriage was one of several texts that our biblical counselors had us use to guide us through the bible during a time when my wife and I were struggling in our marriage, and the truths in the bible that this book, other books and our counselors pointed us to (and lived/continue to live with us since now they are dear friends) have grown our marriage in the immensely.

I'm not saying don't watch, and I'm not suggesting that anyone should abandon the call of the Bereans, but lets be measured in our response and use our words to caution others about the specific error that these men make, they are sinners like us after all. As I've seen in my own church, they preach the gospel boldly but are not perfect and make mistakes. I for one won't be meditating on one word any time soon, but I will meditate on God's word day and night as commanded in in Joshua 1:8.

[chatty-kathi]

My own pastor recently launched a partnership with Mark and his church to assess the need of the churches in Haiti and aid them in the rebuilding process. With Gary Thomas, his book Sacred Marriage was one of several texts that our biblical counselors had us use to guide us through the bible during a time when my wife and I were struggling in our marriage, and the truths in the bible that this book, other books and our counselors pointed us to (and lived/continue to live with us since now they are dear friends) have grown our marriage in the immensely.

This is a pragmatic approach; if it works, it must be of God.

I have already shown Mark Driscoll teaches contemplative prayer. So does Gary Thomas:

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com ... 033006.htm

...In light of Witt's statement to me and his article, it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise to know that Rick Warren has promoted a book called Sacred Pathways by Gary Thomas. In Ray Yungen's new edition of A Time of Departing, Yungen brings this out. He quotes Warren who says of Thomas' book: "Gary has spoken at Saddleback, and I think highly of his work ... he tells them [readers] how they can make the most of their spiritual journeys. He places an emphasis on practical spiritual exercises" (see pg.151 ATOD, 2nd ed.). Yungen then quotes from Thomas' book: "It is particularly difficult to describe this type of prayer in writing, as it is best taught in person. In general however, centering prayer works like this: Choose a word (Jesus or Father, for example) as a focus for contemplative prayer. Repeat the word silently in your mind for a set amount of time (say, twenty minutes) until your heart seems to be repeating the word by itself, just as naturally and involuntarily as breathing" (p. 152 ATOD, 2nd ed.). It is through this twenty minute long repetition that frequencies can be changed.

Gary Thomas also promotes tantric sex, which is combining sex with mysticism:

http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=1722

...Thomas’ contemplative propensities take him (and readers) into an area that could have significant ramifications on countless families. In his book Sacred Marriage (a book that Focus on the Family stands by and sells on their website), Thomas introduces readers to a woman named Mary Anne McPherson Oliver and to her book Conjugal Spirituality.Thomas favorably references Oliver several times throughout Sacred Marriage and also references Oliver on his website in a Sacred Marriage study guide. 1

Who is Mary Anne McPherson Oliver and why should Christians be concerned about Gary Thomas’ promotion of this woman’s book, Conjugal Spirituality?

On the back of Oliver’s book, it states that “[r]eligious practice as we know it today remains, in effect, ‘celibate.’ Mary Anne Oliver proposes an alternative … she examines the spiritual dynamics of long-term relationship.”
You may be wondering, “What does that all mean?” To put it simply, Oliver believes that sexuality and spirituality go together and that couples are missing out because they have not incorporated the two but rather have practiced what she calls a celibate spirituality. But she is not just talking about spirituality – she is talking about mystical spirituality!
Oliver received her doctorate in mystical theology at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California, and her book permeates with her mystical persuasions. She describes her “discomfort” regarding present views on sexuality and religion and says she hunted for answers by talking to monks, going on retreats and even spending an entire (”liturgical”) year at Taize, an ecumenical, meditation-promoting community in France. Eventually, she came to identify what she termed “conjugal spirituality” (p. 1).

Oliver says that “negative attitudes” and “walls” toward sex have inhibited people and says: “Although the walls are coming down, the separation of sex and spirituality which has been operative since the 4th century has yet to be completely eliminated” (p. 16).

What exactly is Oliver proposing couples do to remove these “walls”? Very clearly, her message to couples is to turn to mysticism. In dismay, she says that “spiritual counsellors and writers” have not begun to teach the “Upanishads [Hindu scriptures] and Tantric writings as the basis for moral theology for couples” and that “[s]ome still refuse to grant that mystical experience can be associated with erotic love” (p. 18). Oliver says that changes in mainstream theology have prepared the way for “the emergence of conjugal spirituality.” She adds: “An upsurge of interest in the spiritual life and a renaissance in mystical studies have widened the domain of spirituality” (p. 27).

This mysticism that Oliver encourages is experienced through “bodily exercises” that the couple practice together, “creating one’s spiritual space.” Listen to some of her instructions in what she describes as “intercourse on all levels of consciousness”:

1. “Center ‘that whole human reality which some people are beginning to call bodymind’” (p.85).
2. “Two basic movements in which each can contact the core energy of the other and experience the enlarging of the oval inhabited by the divine presence” (p. 91).
3. Yin and Yang movements
4. “Concentrate in the stillness and silence” (p. 93).
5. “Center yourselves.”
6. “Meditate using the five senses. Experience the circuit of energy circling slowly through the joined bodies” (p. 93).
7. “Focus a few minutes on the breath as a sign of the Spirit’s activity within yourself” (p.102).
8. “Repeat name or “I love you” as a mantra” (p. 102).

In Conjugal Spirituality, Oliver talks favorably about mystic Teilhard de Chardin’s Omega Point and the “Indian Tantric Yoga tradition … spoken of as kundalini potential energy” (p. 97). She describes public sexual ceremonies in which couples practice “Taoist visualizations and meditations, accompanied by breathing exercises” and talks of “[i]nvoking the gods and goddesses.” Oliver says that society may frown on such public displays of sexual mysticism at this time and couples may have to improvise until restrictions are lifted. She says that “sexual union celebrated [is] an eschatological sign of God’s kingdom where all will be one” (p. 101).

It is important to realize here that when Gary Thomas read Oliver’s book, he resonated with it. This is not guilt by association, but rather guilt by promotion.

..For those who may have any doubt about what we are saying, please consider this: In Sacred Pathways, Thomas favorably turns to a man named Basil Pennington (pp. 99, 104, 192). Ray Yungen pinpointef (sic) Pennington’s views when he quoted him in A Time of Departing as saying:

We should not hesitate to take the fruit of the age-old wisdom of the East and capture it for Christ. Indeed, those of us who are in ministry should make the necessary effort to acquaint ourselves with as many of these Eastern techniques as possible … Many Christians who take their prayer life seriously have been greatly helped by Yoga, Zen, TM and similar practices. (ATOD, p. 64)

Pennington also states:

It is my sense, from having meditated with persons from many different [non-Christian] traditions, that in the silence we experience a deep unity. When we go beyond the portals of the rational mind into the experience, there is only one God to be experienced. – Basil Pennington (Centered Living, p. 192)
Contemplative spirituality is a necessary component to usher in the New Age Movement.

While I am glad your marriage was helped, our response to the apostasy is in Ephesians 5:11: And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove (expose) them.

[Just_Betsy]

My friend, who was saved out of decades of deep occult involvement, was aghast when I told her that tantric sex was being introduced as compatible with Christianity. She says it is incredibly demonic and leads people into contact with evil spirits.

[Finaldash]

As some of you know I've recently moved here in Seattle. After attending several churches, I've come to the conclusion that Driscoll's teaching is quite biblically sound. He is quite conservative in his principles and teaching. He is upfront and not scared if anyone is offended regarding the gospel, hell, and sin and all...
Unfortunately I've never been in a church where every single week I feel convicted of the sins in my life. Until now.
The first couple of times I attended, I was actually not sure if I should come back because both times he exposed how self righteous and religious I was. In the end I kept coming back, because i knew I needed it.
I would go far to say that he is the John MacArthur of the Northwest. John Piper was just here last month and did a whole day of sermons for the church.
He was part of the Emerging church movement but quickly moved away from it when he saw where it was going. I read his daily blog on facebook, and he even posted an article regarding the death of the emergent church movement. He and his members regarded it as something positive.
So in conclusion, I see nothing but positive influence for my family in this church. Solid, biblically accurate teaching church.

P.S. The worship is a little in the rock side. So if that's negative, then that would be it.

[brandon]

Hey Finaldash,

Thank you for posting this. The only problem that I've seen with Mark is when he was publicly rebuked by the likes of MacArthur for being too loose with his words and using some cuss words in a sermon.

I've posted the warning before, and I'll post it again: Lighthouse Trails Research should be taken with a grain of salt. They can tie just about anyone to anything. I used to be a faithful reader, until the opinions I was spouting were challenged. When I went back to find the sources of their articles, I found several sources to be suspect, at best. They are experts at painting a picture that falls apart under examination.

Frankly, meditative prayer is not always pagan prayer. The problem is that when a Christian says "meditation" and a pagan says "meditation" they mean very different things, but its the same word. Also, Lighthouse Trails Research is a publishing company that is looking to sell books. Contemplative prayer/meditation/silence are ambiguous topics. I had the opportunity to take a formal course on spiritual disciplines last Fall (it also had seminary level teaching on the Synoptic Gospels and Acts - great stuff!) and it opened my eyes to the differences between the pagan junk that Lighthouse Trails says that every other major ministry is touting, and the Christian disciplines that are actually being taught and espoused.

Mark Driscoll is one of the most solid younger pastors out there, one that is theologically sound and doctrinally focused.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

I agree that meditation means different things to different people but meditative, centered prayer or contemplative prayer as practiced by the emergent church is an occult technique used to put your mind into an altered state of consciousness. I have followed and read several new age authors who claim that this meditative emptying of the mind is key to self realization. What they don't say outrightly, but can find out if you follow the rabbit trails is that it is a method to invite the "spirits" of the dead or angelic beings to channel through you. It is what the scripture would call mediums and spiritists. The idea that this technique is being used in so-called Christian settings is a corruption of the truth. Those who have come out of the occult know this to be true. Scripture tells us how we should pray, and in what manner, not in meaningless repetition. Jesus gave us the form we are to pray in not by emptying our minds, but by relating to God as our heavenly Father, in conversation, by praising Him, glorifying Him, by asking for His will to be accomplished, by sharing with Him our needs, by requesting forgiveness, and protection and deliverance.

Matthew 6:7-13
7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
9 “Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]’

I do not know if Driscoll still supports the contemplative prayer view, he may have at one time, I guess more homework is required in order to find out.

If you are attending his church perhaps you can settle it for all of us and go ask him what his views are of contemplative prayer.

RT

[aaron]

Hi Chatty-Kathi! Nice to see you on the FP board, I don't know if you've been around more lately and I've missed you, but glad to see your name pop up on the board!

If you are attending his church perhaps you can settle it for all of us and go ask him what his views are of contemplative prayer.

I agree, some folks might use the word contemplative when describing prayer, not knowing the occult side of this practice. So it would be best to ask the pastor what his views on prayer are. I personally enjoy quiet prayer times, silently waiting on God, many times He directs me to something in the Word to read or someone to pray for. But I don't repeat phrases to alter my consciousness, this sounds like something I did before I was a Christian. Ick.

I don't like Mysticism either, Christianity should never be blended with any other religion, something about sweet and bitter water mixing, right? Or cold and hot water mixing, or light and darkness mixing, or good apples and bad apples mixing or....

[Finaldash]

Hey Finaldash,
The only problem that I've seen with Mark is when he was publicly rebuked by the likes of MacArthur for being too loose with his words and using some cuss words in a sermon.

In the 7-8 services I've attended I havent heard him cuss yet. I'm not saying he wont, but I don't think its something that he endorses. But I wouldn't be surprise if I will hear it some day. He seems to have this personality that can be quite sarcastic and sometimes "freewheeling" when he's up there in the podium. Everyone is fair game for him to criticize, from religiosity and fundamentalist in the church to liberal denominations. In the same breath he would condemn some of the tendencies of his own church all the way to looking upon himself as chief among the personalities he just preached against. A couple of times I became really uncomfortable because he was hitting me in the right spots. At the same time my family was right next to me, and I knowing they were all thinking that I was being pierced by the "arrows" he was hurling. I needed it. Then he disarms you by himself admitting that he is guilty of them first.

Mark Driscoll is one of the most solid younger pastors out there, one that is theologically sound and doctrinally focused.

This is the reason why I'm staying. I often went to John MacArthur's church when I was in Cali. and I believe he's right up there preaching the accuracy and power of the Word the way MacArthur did.

I do not know if Driscoll still supports the contemplative prayer view, he may have at one time, I guess more homework is required in order to find out.

If you are attending his church perhaps you can settle it for all of us and go ask him what his views are of contemplative prayer.

RT

Hopefully I can catch him this Sunday and ask him. Unfortunately I will be in Alaska until the end of Sept. so I won't be able to attend the services until then. There is a book out there called, "Listening to the Beliefs of Emerging Churches: Five Perspectives". Again, he does not consider himself anymore as part of that group but happily obliged to be interviewed regarding his views on it. I read his part and he thoroughly disagreed and destroyed the proponents of the movement.
Here is an article he posted on facebook regarding the end of the Emerging Churches movement: http://online.worldmag.com/2010/04/14/f ... 1989-2010/
This is for all of his members to see.....
and judging how everyone commented and took the delight in it, I was confident that none of his long time followers were also supporters of it.

Here is a sample of Driscoll's sermon on the Beatitudes: http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/luk ... des-part-1
If you don't have time, just listen to the last 11 minutes of the sermon. Jump to the 38m45sec mark to witness his passion and conviction against religiosity. He even slams the bible, I think he did that to emphasize the importance of knowing Jesus personally instead of just filling ourselves with knowledge with a result of self righteousness and becoming religious. This might be offensive to some. I thought within the context of his message, it was quite effective.

[Finaldash]

I actually found a shorter version of the clip I wanted to show regarding his passion at the end of the longer clip of his sermon on the Beatitudes. This one is just 4 min long:
http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/luk ... se-gospels

I still suggest to listen to the longer last 10 min version. He slips in a little eschatology.

[Abiding in His Word]

I have read somewhere that Mark Driscoll insists members sign a membership covenant that stipulates they must give a certain amount of money and time to the church. Also they sign away their rights to legal representation in the event a church dispute arises. I wonder if this is true.

[GodsStudent]

I have read somewhere that Mark Driscoll insists members sign a membership covenant that stipulates they must give a certain amount of money and time to the church. Also they sign away their rights to legal representation in the event a church dispute arises. I wonder if this is true.

I went searching on the web to see if I could find something you were talking about, Abiding. I didn't get very far until I found this..... http://defendingcontending.com/2009/01/ ... ck-warren/

So, Im done......don't think I need to know any more, ya know?

[Abiding in His Word]

http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/56609176.html

I'm finished as well....

[brandon]

I disagree. Read the post for itself. This is another good example of someone drawing out something that's not there. He even says they don't agree or endorse everything listed on the "linked website".

Classic example of making something out of nothing. Mark Driscoll is seriously dealing with the questions people ask. The subject linked to is often thought about and asked by men today, and just because they're Christian doesn't mean they don't wonder where the boundaries are.

Pretty much most of the self-proclaimed "watchmen" sites are "Read at your own risk". They're usually irresponsible and mostly opinion and editorial.

[aaron]

just because they're Christian doesn't mean they don't wonder where the boundaries are.

Boundaries ... that's a topic for whole new thread if you ask me. I've heard it said that what was unacceptable a generation ago in the secular arena is now acceptable in the church. I hate to jump to conclusions, but those two links posted about Driscoll disgust me. I hope it's not true.

I have friends on Facebook that used to sing and pray and talk about holiness and getting sin and lust for things of this world out of our lives and hearts in order to make more room for Jesus to have His way. These same friends ten years later are openly bragging about going to movies that are basically soft porn movies.

What has happened? I feel like an outcast when I talk to them, but I don't want to go down the road they're going.

Driscoll better take heed where he's leading his flock. Toward holiness or worldliness?

[Abiding in His Word]

Pretty much most of the self-proclaimed "watchmen" sites are "Read at your own risk". They're usually irresponsible and mostly opinion and editorial.

How about these, brandon? Some error in the church is difficult to discern, but we're in real trouble imho when we overlook and/or condone this type of filth in the pulpit.

Critics like pastor John MacArthur of Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, Calif., however take Driscoll to task over his use of sexually explicit language and "purely gratuitous humor" they say degrades the Gospel and the pulpit.

In a December 2006 issue of Pulpit magazine, MacArthur, a renowned Calvinist himself, complimented Driscoll's theology but said the young pastor suffers from an "infatuation with the vulgar aspects of contemporary society" and models a lifestyle "especially his easygoing familiarity with all this world's filthy fads -- [that] practically guarantees that [his disciples] will make little progress toward authentic sanctification."

Driscoll also has gotten into hot water over the use of profanity before, at one time having the reputation as the “cussing pastor.” In that case, he repented, starting with a public apology for having become known for “good theology, a bad temper, and a foul mouth.

http://www.baptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?id=29852

http://www.mbla.org/Driscoll_Quotes.htm

http://www.chroniclewatch.com/2009/07/0 ... 9s-church/

http://defendingcontending.com/?s=driscoll

http://www.baptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?id=29852

http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/

http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/category ... urch-alert

[Finaldash]

Driscoll better take heed where he's leading his flock. Toward holiness or worldliness?

you're just gonna have to believe me on this. It is not worldliness.

I have seen those before and I had to see them in actuality for myself to believe. Again so far from my attendance I have seen nothing close to what have been reported. Scurrying through their website I see nothing that should alarm me.

Unfortunately I won't have a chance to interview him before I leave for Alaska. But it will definitely be my priority when I get back.
I do know that he has a tendency to find and poke at everyones weakness and tendencies and expose them.
In his sermons he tries to fish all the critics and brings out the mirror and shows the hypocracy in everyone.
In one sermon he concluded that there is not one person who is not a hypocrite. He criticized his own churches one by one, and he also admitted that he was a hypocrite himself.

One thing I know is that he does not agree with Rick Warren at all. He calls his book, "the purpose-driven LIES".

[Finaldash]

He has a facebook page for those interested.
Right now he is promoting "The Holiness of God" by RC Sproul.

Here is his church website: http://www.marshillchurch.org/
lots of audio and videos.

[GodsStudent]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGdVb2iufoo

In this video, Mark Driscoll raves about Rick Warren's church. He says Rick's church has huge potential and may turn into something someday.

In light of Mr. Warren's work with Tony Blair and Co.....I tend to agree with Mr. Driscoll. This is not a good thing, though, as I don't see Mr. Warren's work in the same appearant light as Mr. Driscoll does.

[Finaldash]

Godstudent,
having sat through several sermons and before and after engagements with Pastor Driscoll, I can tell he was being sarcastic. You can even tell by the reaction of the snickering audience in the background when he said Pastor Warren's church will "turn into something" one day. Which he definitely, even seem like he was mocking it.
Seems like the clip was deceitful with it's title too. It cut off when he was about to give an explanation of what a church is.

He is gracious even to the people he might disagree with, like he was in the clip. I can tell from reading the book he was on, regarding the emerging churches, that he is a very kind person. Even to the people he disagrees with.

Look guys, I was very negative regarding Mr. Driscoll before I came to Seattle. Here's a link to my negative comments on another thread viewtopic.php?p=467389#p467389

I had to see it myself what the hoopla was all about. After the third service I was ready to not attend anymore because I thought he was a little to mean and always tend to mock self-righteous people in the church. I kept on being hit. But I wasn't about to leave because of some bad doctrine, it was because my family always brought up the point that every sermon was for me. All I know is that, through the Holy Spirit, he shattered the religiosity and the hypocrisy in my life and took me down from my high horse. He reminded me that it's always about Jesus.

You guys will just have to see him live on stage to know what I mean. It may take more than one service, to know his context. All of you are welcome to stay in my house if you ever stopped in Seattle.
He definitely has his own shortfalls, which is all over the internet. But I have never seen a pastor who owns up quickly to his mistakes. I can see him having that "Peter", manly personality. This guy is just like an avg. person. He doesn't have a pretentious personality in his bone, like I see in so many pastors.
Remember I regularly attended John MacArthur's church in California. Just give me at least that credit of discerning who the fakes are.

[brandon]

Sorry finaldash, no matter how many times you sit under his teaching, blogger's opinions are more important than your firsthand account.

[Abiding in His Word]

Sorry finaldash, no matter how many times you sit under his teaching, blogger's opinions are more important than your firsthand account.

Hello Brandon,

I don't think we should pooh-pooh the first-hand experiences of bloggers or those who critique books written that contain fallacies and/or unscriptural conduct. Were it not for this type of apologetics, we would be unaware of the dangers of many like Todd Bentley, the Prophetic/Apostolic group, Rick Warren, and the Fellowship of the Martyrs which you were good enough to expose for us on this board. I remember your saying that all might appear right for a long while, but when the layers begin to peel off, the false and unscriptural becomes obvious.

And we know that all false teachings and teachers mix plenty of truth in the pot so as to be as inconspicuous as possible in order to promote their agenda. When a believer sits under those teachings long enough, some brave souls peel back the layers and expose them for what they are.

Are we to discredit those who try to bring light to a situation that exists in an effort to warn others of the dangers simply because the medium they are using is the internet via blogs and/or boards? Many of those do much research using books authored by the individual, verifiable words from that individual, and other credible references.

Scripture tells us not to receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. And when we have many testifying to the very controversial methods and words of one who has earned the title of "the cussing pastor" who preaches a "porn-again message," it behooves us imho to take notice and warn others. Many, as we know, ignored the warnings about Todd Bentley and may have had their faith in the gospel destroyed. Others continue down the path to their own destruction. Many are still defending false teachers like Chuck Pierce, Doug Perry, Rick Joyner, Brian McLaren, Rick Warren, and a host of others, but we can rest knowing that we have done our part in bringing two or three (or hundreds) of witnesses who have valid accusations against the things they teach.

Solid theology will not cause all these accusations, but a cussing pastor who preaches and advocates porn will..... I still suggest more research on this person anywhere it can be found.

just my opinion fwiw....

[Finaldash]

He's gotta book that deals in frankness with the prevailing sins of Christian men.......(pornography and ***********).
So how does that make him an advocator of pornography?

[brandon]

I'm not saying there's not a place for calling public ministers to account for their public ministries, or their private sins when they are exposed. Clearly scripture supports such a role. My experience with FOTM was very cult-like, with many, including myself, buying into increasingly strange teachings that led to immorality. So by all means, if Mark Driscoll is teaching people to view pornography together, or alone, then he should be exposed as such.

But the problem is that he's not. He's not supporting fornication, or adultery, or homosexuality, or viewing pornography. He's not swearing in sermons. He may be called the cussing pastor, but he isn't swearing in sermons. In fact, the vast majority of negatives related to him being called the cussing pastor come from articles dated in 2006. 2006. We're in 2010 now.

Now I read a critique by John MacArthur yesterday on Driscoll's preaching of Song of Solomon, and in many ways I agreed with MacArthur. Driscoll's crude humor can and does get him in trouble, and in that case some of the teaching wasn't great. He crosses over boundaries, sometimes saying things inappropriate. He doesn't spend all, or even most, of his time there though.

I really, really think that instead of doing research into the blogosphere you all might want to listen to some sermons, or read the things he writes.

I've found the most devastating thing to Pharisees, I mean discernment minstries, is to actually read what they're quoting in context. Too many times I've read articles where they have twisted and perverted a phrase out of context to prove their point. They've done it to legitimate heretics, like Brian McLaren. And they do it to solid preachers like Mark Driscoll. Check their sources and read the full context of what they're quoting. Sometimes the complaint is legitimate, but sometimes the so called discernment ministry has twisted the truth.

[Abiding in His Word]

He's gotta book that deals in frankness with the prevailing sins of Christian men.......(pornography and ***********).
So how does that make him an advocator of pornography?

Hello Finaldash,

If this topic continues in the direction of Mark Driscoll and pornography, it will soon violate our desire for a PG13 rating on this board. For this reason, I will only say that research will expose the depth of the problem but will post no links.

The controversary this man has generated leaves one wondering how much more fleshly focus can possibly fill our churches as it has at every turn outside of them. Recognizing the vast number of sex addicts in our country and in our churches as well, we do not need additional stimulation in this area from the pulpit. What is needed is spiritual growth that will enable believers to walk in the spirit so as to not carry out the desires of the carnal flesh.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi Finaldash,

Just some observations as I read the posts, a couple things you said make me see little red flags. Perhaps I am overly sensitive, having just recently come through some difficulties in my home church but you mentioned that Pastor Driscoll uses sarcasm, that he was making fun of Rick Warren. Is this what a Pastor should be doing? I think that there is no place for sarcasm in the pulpit, it only leads to trouble. Preach the word- let the word of God judge whether Rick Warren is "going places". If he is not in favor of Rick Warrens views or ministry then show how he is wrong with scripture, so that people will know where he is in error, but do not use sarcasm to turn people away from the man. IMO sarcasm is a tool of the immature and insecure. Also you said he has a way of poking at people, I think you meant convicting them. There is nothing wrong with that, but beware of the Pastor that beats up its congregation repeatedly. There is a church near us whose Pastor does this regularly, eventually it brings people down. Again there is nothing wrong with preaching the word and people being convicted by it, just make sure it is the word and not legalism. I'm not saying that is what Driscoll is doing, just that it raises a flag to me, that you need to examine what he is saying that is convicting you and make sure that it is really the word of God and not the words of a man who likes to exercise power over others.

I have watched a couple sermons online from Mark Driscoll, I watched the one where he talks about the emergent church and how he left that movement. I pretty much agreed with what he had to say. He didn't say or do anything that I thought was out of line. I think that he has a lot to learn, he is young and is entitled to some mistakes along the way, but if he doesn't learn from them and continues to make poor judgment calls then that could become a bigger problem for him and those who are led by him.

I agree that some of these groups who look for "apostasy" will sometimes go to the "nth" degree to dig something up. While I feel they should focus on what is more obvious, rather than what is very obscure.

So for me the jury is still out. I look forward to hearing from you when you get back about his views on contemplative prayer.

RT

PS Have a safe and blessed trip to Alaska

[Finaldash]

I agree with all of what you said RT. Again from the pulpit, I have seen nothing wrong or thoelogically inaccurate so far. He is awesme at preaching the truth each and every week.
My family (wife and daughter) actually told me, that this is the first time where they actually learn something weekly.
As far as sarcasm, he does kind of go over the edge a little on that one.
But I have been under Chuck Smith, Greg Laurie, Raul Ries, John MacArthur and they've all used sarcasm. I never thought John M. would, but he actually does regularly. Especially when he talked about Tim Lahaye, to my surprise.
But I can see why people would be uncomfortable with him. He's not protocol when he's up there. He's reminds me of how me and my guy friends would be accountable for eachother's sins. Staright to the point, loose and upfront.

So he could be more well suited as a Men's-only pastor, in his personality. But theologically solid, I think.
Thanks for your kindness regarding my trip next week. I'll see if I can catch Mark this week regarding contemplatve.

[chatty-kathi]

I've found the most devastating thing to Pharisees, I mean discernment minstries, is to actually read what they're quoting in context.

The use of the “Pharisee Card” is commonly used to attack those who are concerned with doctrinal purity and are exposing the apostasy.

The actual problem with the Pharisees was that they were false teachers, which was why Jesus criticized them, making this is a “straw man” argument.

Many in the New Apostolic Reformation use this term, including Rick Joyner. They are laying the groundwork for the soon coming persecution by Joel’s Army.

The burden of proof is on you, Brandon. I have never seen the well known watchmen ministries take things out of context, as you assert. To paint all of the watchmen with this broad stroke is certainly one way to try to silence opposition.

Finaldash, to listen to the sermons is not enough. Who do these people recommend and quote from? Who do they align themselves with? Have you gone to the links in this thread and researched everything?

He even slams the bible, I think he did that to emphasize the importance of knowing Jesus personally instead of just filling ourselves with knowledge with a result of self righteousness and becoming religious.

Jesus is the Word of God. Why would you try to interpret his motives? Even if you could, how can you possibly justify this?

Can you not see this is another spirit at work, with the fruit of sexually explicit sermons and a foul mouth? It is demonstrated sexually because rejection of the Word of God brings “uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts.” Please read Romans, chapter one, to see the connection.

[Finaldash]

Finaldash, to listen to the sermons is not enough. Who do these people recommend and quote from? Who do they align themselves with? Have you gone to the links in this thread and researched everything?

Are you asking who Driscoll aligns himself with? His favorite is Charles Spurgeon. He names his son after John Calvin. He learned a lot from listening to John MacArthur sermons. His current spiritual adviser is John Piper. I don't see any problem with that line up. Unless of course you're an Arminianist. LOL
And yes I have seen all of those and researched before they've been posted here. I once was a "hater" of Mark Driscoll. It's one of those things where someone shouldn't judge someone until they actually get to meet them and hear them. Context, context, context.

He even slams the bible, I think he did that to emphasize the importance of knowing Jesus personally instead of just filling ourselves with knowledge with a result of self righteousness and becoming religious.

Jesus is the Word of God. Why would you try to interpret his motives? Even if you could, how can you possibly justify this?

I'm interpreting his motives because I already know his tendencies and quirks in preaching. So if you know a man's personality, you'll know the context. I can justify it because I know lots of Christians, including myself who are so legalistic, because they have become so knowledgeable with the the Word... and have misused it to condemn lots of people.... and in my case my wife and daughter. His preaching, with the help of the Holy Spirit, is changing me slowly with this issue.
Secondly, did you see the video I posted...? when he slammed the bible? You have to see it in context. Please at least watch it.

Can you not see this is another spirit at work, with the fruit of sexually explicit sermons and a foul mouth? It is demonstrated sexually because rejection of the Word of God brings “uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts.” Please read Romans, chapter one, to see the connection.

I still haven't seen any clips of him using any foul language. I'm sure he has used it, but not enough that he should be famous for it. There aren't even any clips of it... so it is not in his practice. Slip-ups are diff. from intentional.
He isn't sexually explicit in his sermons. He does have that book that is suppose to be just for "men only read", because he wanted to confront them "head on!!" He did this he said because the problem of sin is so rampant in the church, and nobody is dealing with it directly aside from secular sources. This guy is really trying.

[mark s]

BTW . . . there is a lot of sarcasm in Scripture . . .

[brandon]

Chatti-Kathi,

I used to heavily buy into the Lighthouse Trails stuff, but when I did research into what they stated for a fact as "contemplative" and found that it wasn't contemplative at all (i.e. Brother Lawrence) I became very skeptical of discernment "ministries", and as I read more postings from different blogs and sites, I began to see that they, not always, but sometimes took statements out of context to prove their point.

There is such a thing as Christian mysticism, and it's not linked in with pagan mysticism. Trying to empty one's mind of extra thoughts and focus on the Father isn't unscriptural or pagan. To just empty the mind so it can be filled by a mystical force or presence that is not God is pagan. I used to do that. I used to try and empty my mind, or focus on having out of body experiences, etc. Trust me, there is a difference. God interacts with people in scripture in trances, in the Spirit, etc. Read about how some of the prophets in pre-Kingdom Israel prophesied. Some of the things they did were weird, mystical stuff. When the Spirit of the Lord came upon Saul, weird stuff happened.

Can you not see this is another spirit at work, with the fruit of sexually explicit sermons and a foul mouth? It is demonstrated sexually because rejection of the Word of God brings “uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts.” Please read Romans, chapter one, to see the connection.

Rejection of the Word of God? The man has dedicated his life to scripture's teaching and to fulfilling the Great Commission. He's got no bones about throwing the book at premarital sex, or pornography. He goes after sexual sin from the pulpit and in his writings. But, chances are you wouldn't know that since you only feed yourself on a steady diet of internet bloggers and critics.

It's not that they don't have some valid points. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize Mark's said some stupid things, and some inappropriate things, and also some downright wrong things. That doesn't make him apostate, it makes him a sinner saved by grace who is leading a church. He's admitted publicly he's made a lot of mistakes as a pastor, a lot as a preacher, and a lot as a Christian. He's repented publicly for things. But I'll tell you one thing: he's taken the Gospel to some dark places, and he's been used by God heavily.

[Finaldash]

Here's a sample of his sarcasm.... as he's explaining that it does exist in the bible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y-XN-rsZ80

[Abiding in His Word]

Here's a sample of his sarcasm.... as he's explaining that it does exist in the bible.

Of course, I could be mistaken, but I've not seen Driscoll's sarcasm as the primary problem with his ministry in this thread.

Here's several excerpts from an article by Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You entitled "Sound Doctrine; Sound Words"

I chose that text, frankly, because I'm deeply concerned about the tendency of so many pastors lately to employ profanity, crude and obscene words, vile subject matter, carnal topics, graphic sexual imagery, erotic language, and filthy jokes. Most of you, I know, are aware of the trend I'm talking about. I'm tempted to call it the pornification of the pulpit. The justification usually given is that coarse language and sexual themes are the tools of contextualization. It's a way to make us sound more relevant. Lots of voices in the church are insistent that this is absolutely essential if we want to reach certain segments of our culture.

When I was considering what subjects might be important for a group of pastors and church leaders as large and diverse as this, I couldn't get away from this issue. The New York Times Magazine recently did a feature article on Mark Driscoll in which this was a major theme. "Who Would Jesus Smack Down?" was the title of the article. Here's the lead sentence: "Mark Driscoll's sermons are mostly too racy to post on [an] evangelical Christian 'family friendly' . . . Web site."

So this is a subject almost everyone (including the New York Times) is already talking nonstop about. And yet it seems to me that people in the evangelical world are not thinking very biblically about it. What language and what kind of subject matter are suitable for the pulpit in a worship service? What gifts and what virtues qualify a man to be a pastor? And what should stand out most prominently when someone analyzes our style of ministry? What would YOU want the New York Times to focus on if they did an article analyzing your style?

But get this: there are likewise certain principles of sanctification and personal conduct that are so vital we're required to break fellowship with those who ignore them. First Corinthians 5:11: "I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one." In other words, if someone calls himself a Christian but his lifestyle or language is chronically incompatible with a sanctified heart and mind—certainly if he is given to casual blasphemy or obsessed with things that are lewd and indecent—Paul says, don't associate with such people.

Brethren, this is not a complex issue at all: Crass, carnal, crude, gutter language and fleshly, self-indulgent, or erotic subject matter should not be the hallmarks of our ministry style.

The current fad is precisely the opposite.It's nothing but soft-porn, smuggled into the church under the guise of relevance. But it's counter-relevant. The last thing our culture needs is for the world's obsession with sex to be mirrored in the message the church proclaims

Three times in the five weeks since my mom died—twice on nationwide television broadcasts (two separate interviews on large secular network programs) I've heard Mark Driscoll make a filthy, sophomoric joke about a certain sexual behavior

more

[Finaldash]

Here's several excerpts from an article by Phil Johnson, Executive Director of Grace to You entitled "Sound Doctrine; Sound Words"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMoEJvHS5x4
I'll just have Mark Driscoll respond. Here in this video he responds to Phil Johnson. It's 10 min....
but if it's too long the 8:00 min mark I think is sufficient to understand where he is coming from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMoEJvHS5x4

[Abiding in His Word]

I'll just have Mark Driscoll respond. Here in this video he responds to Phil Johnson. It's 10 min....
but if it's too long the 8:00 min mark I think is sufficient to understand where he is coming from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMoEJvHS5x4

Thank you, Finaldash, but I've heard all I care to from Mark Driscoll. Nothing he could say would change my mind any more than those Todd Bentley said. I personally find them a disgrace to the word "Christian." I would just issue one more word of caution regarding this controversial, "contemporary" man.... listen between the lines and to the witness of many.

May the Lord bless you and your family.

[Finaldash]

I'll just have Mark Driscoll respond. Here in this video he responds to Phil Johnson. It's 10 min....
but if it's too long the 8:00 min mark I think is sufficient to understand where he is coming from.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMoEJvHS5x4

Thank you, Finaldash, but I've heard all I care to from Mark Driscoll. Nothing he could say would change my mind any more than those Todd Bentley said.

C'mon Abiding... you can't do that? Can't accuse him from outside source and not give him a chance. You gotta give his response a chance.
But are you equating him with Todd Bentley?

May the Lord bless you and your family.

Same with you sis. This is the part of our walk among eachother here on Earth in which I don't like, where fellow Christians have to bicker with one another.

[Abiding in His Word]

I know some consider a discussion with two opposing views bickering, but I don't. I call it a debate or simply a discussion with two or more opposing views.

But are you equating him with Todd Bentley?

Yes, for the reproach, scandal, and controversy he brings to the name of Christian.

[chatty-kathi]

Are you asking who Driscoll aligns himself with? His favorite is Charles Spurgeon. He names his son after John Calvin. He learned a lot from listening to John MacArthur sermons. His current spiritual adviser is John Piper.

I was thinking along the lines of Robert Schuller and Rick Warren.

Mark Driscoll was cut off mid-interview in 2009 on a Christian radio network because of the content. Finaldash, I’m going to p.m. you the link. Yes, it is that bad. He recommends a type of sex that is used by those who have rejected the truth.

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

“For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The Just Shall Live by Faith.”

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;”

“For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:”

“And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.”

“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;” (Romans 1:16-18, 26-28)

But, chances are you wouldn't know that since you only feed yourself on a steady diet of internet bloggers and critics.

You know absolutely nothing about me or what I read.