amessenger4god wrote: While I don't see it here yet, nothing quite burns me up like Christians who stake everything on this issue on Romans 13. This is the worst example of cherry picking scripture I can think of.
Perhaps they are not aware that the law runs through the whole bible. Perhaps they are not aware that God Himself instituted the laws, statutes, and ordinances by which the Israelites were to live. He implemented moral, judicial and civil boundaries as guides on how to treat neighbors and those who trespass against others. The laws insisted on justice, fairness, and honesty among his people. All people were equal in God's law and subject to appropriate punishment for crimes committed depending on the severity. That's why it's stated "an eye for an eye"....Victims could not inflict more injury than they had received. Neither could criminals restore less than they had taken or stolen simply because of a class distinction. References to governing authorities runs all the way through scripture from the OT to the Gospels to the Epistles. Paul, being a Pharisee, was well versed in the Mosaic law and respected the judicial authority as originating from God hence the reference in Romans 13.
God's law comes first. Period.
What laws of God's in particular are you referring to, amessenger4God?
Often times earthly laws are good and beneficial and we can and should respect them, but not when they ask us to turn against the Supreme Law-giver Himself.
I'm in agreement that God gave us laws and we are subject to them while on earth. No one has implied otherwise I don't think.
3. I agree with Abiding about submitting over to the governing authorities. I think that is appropriate and Christians that don't do that are in sin.
I also agree with I think the spirit of what Keith is saying regarding grace and reconciliation.
Agreed. The legal laws of the land are not meant to extend grace and forgiveness. Those are spiritual virtues.
Insofar as we as believers are concerned, we are called to extend grace, forgiveness, and reconciliation to any and every fellow brother when they ask for it. No exceptions. That includes Josh and John.
Scripture teaches forgiveness of sins committed against us
. Josh has not committed sin against me, but against those whom he molested. Forgiveness must come from each of them. Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother trespasses against you, rebuke him. And if he repents, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 And if he trespasses against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turns again to you, saying, I repent, you shall forgive him. Col 3:13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. Mar 11:25 "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.
For me to say I forgive Charles Manson, or the Boston Bomber, or millions of doctors who have performed abortions, or ISIS for murdering women and children, or homosexuals who are getting married, is a misunderstanding of what God expects of us. The principle of forgiveness is that of one person to another who has sinned against them. Now love is another story altogether. We are to love not only one another in the family of God, but to those who are outside the family of God. He died for all sinners. We love because while we were yet sinners, Jesus died for us.
Again, I have nothing to forgive Josh Duggar for as he has not sinned against me.
Especially if they have forsaken their sin or are genuinely fighting it. Failure to forgive is a sin, and in fact a bitter, venomous, ongoing sin.
Not sure I understand this. Would you provide scripture references for bitter, venomous, and ongoing sin?
"For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." - Matthew 7:2
Yes, this is part and parcel with reaping what is sown, the deed of the flesh as opposed to the fruit of the spirit, loving your neighbor as yourself, etc.
"Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." - Matthew 18:21-22
Yes, forgiveness toward those who sin against us specifically...."brother or sister who sins against me
Nothing traps people in cycles of sin and despair like the failure of their family, friends, and neighbors to forgive and accept them when they ask for it (IF THEY ACTUALLY ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR WRONGDOING; not talking about accepting sin, aka not acceptance in the sense that it's "ok if you're 'gay'"; but only when there appears to be acknowledged repentance).
Forgiveness does not always result in restoration of relationships. We wish it would. We hope it will. But it doesn't always. I might forgive a friend who stabbed me while he was high on drugs, but that doesn't mean I'll take a trip to France with him next month if invited. I'll wisely, politely pass on the offer.
In just my close circle of family and friends there has been habitual struggles with hard drugs, alcohol, sex, pornography, despair, lying, homosexuality, divorce, infidelity, and on and on and on.
These were overcome through love and forgiveness and reconciliation to Christ.
Some will struggle with these sins throughout their lives even following reconciliation to Christ. With these, we walk with them through their valleys, extending encouragement, love, and prayer for eventual victory.
Judgment does nothing to solve the heart problem, it only stops the societal ramifications. Judgment is important and necessary, but let us not put ourselves in the judge's seat unless that seat has been given to us.
Yes, judgement is necessary, but only by those who are designated for that responsibility. That's why it's important to recognize the difference between the spiritual principles we extend and the legal, judicial we leave to the governing authorities as ordained by God for our good. Both are necessary depending on the situation. If there's a law that's being broken and there's a law of mandated reporting, we must report it.
I'm truly baffled by the (somewhat) insistence that one precludes the other. That spiritual applications negate the need for legal ones despite the evidence to the contrary is to assume Christians are above the law.Things that are against the law and should be reported to law enforcement include:
Murder, physical or sexual assault, human trafficking, child pornography, physical or sexual child abuse, theft, sale or use of illegal drugs, child abduction, carrying firearms without proper documentationThings that are not against federal, state, or civil law but are spiritual sins which require repentance by the individual include:
lying, unforgiveness, sexual promiscuity, divorce, adultery, cheating, abortion, homosexual activity, drunkenness, pride, etc.
The appropriate method of resolution should be obvious. You wouldn't call 911 to report your friend just got divorced or told a lie. Likewise, we shouldn't try to imply that all that's necessary for an illegal child abduction is grace and mercy nor should such a crime be minimized or covered up.