California church draws backlash for sign

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California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Ready1 on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:44 am

California church draws backlash for sign: ‘Bruce Jenner is still a man’

A Northern California church sparked outrage over a sign that read: “Bruce Jenner is still a man. Homosexuality is still sin. The culture may change. The Bible does not."

Caitlyn Jenner is formerly known as Bruce and revealed in 2015 that she is transgender and has become a woman.
The church, Trinity Bible Presbyterian Church, is located in Lake Shastina, Calif., which is about an hours’ drive from the Oregon border.

Protesters gathered in front of the church on Sunday to denounce what they called “hate and slander” and to “show our love and support for the LGBT community,” according to a Facebook page that organized the event.

Justin Hoke, the church’s pastor, wrote on Facebook Wednesday that the sign’s Plexiglass had been destroyed and the letters had been stolen.

The protesters denied having destroyed the sign, The Sacramento Bee reported. Hoke posted a picture on his Facebook Thursday of the sign back up with plaster covering the letters, writing: “It’s not pretty, but it’s back up.”

Hoke later wrote on Facebook: “If a conservative mountain farming community is no longer a safe place to call sin, sin, then is anywhere in this country still safe for real Christians?” according to The Siskiyou Daily News.


more
Just observing.

E.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:39 pm

I feel their pain.
I don't have any signs out there, but I don't play with this subject, either. This sin, and any other that we just condone in our society must be called what it is, and each of us, as able as we are (meaning some of us have a lot of scripture memorized and others can't quote what scripture says about either particular sins or sin in general)....we must tell the truth about what the Word says to each other.

We must tell each other the truth about what we know our Lord has set in stone.

John 3 tells us this: LET WHAT VERSE 36 SAYS REALLY SINK IN


30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:03 pm

Its unfortunate. The church was asking for trouble in my opinion. First of all they should have left Bruce Jenner out of it. If they are doing a sermon series on homosexuality then just post the scripture- Let God do the talking.

I am not in favor of the church skirting politically charged topics, but there is a right way to do it and a wrong way, and this in my opinion was the wrong way.

Speak the truth in love- otherwise all you are is a bunch of irritating noise!

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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:17 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Its unfortunate. The church was asking for trouble in my opinion. First of all they should have left Bruce Jenner out of it. If they are doing a sermon series on homosexuality then just post the scripture- Let God do the talking.


Agreed!

And include all the other things that are an abomination to the Lord but do not neglect to emphasize the grace and mercy He has for sinners reminding them that it was for sinners that He came specifically!

But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matt. 9:12-13 
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Mark F on Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:03 pm

I agree with you also.

I have in recent years had to face this issue. A family member has entered a gay "marriage." I had been pretty vocal about my beliefs on social media and being a clod, not recognizing that they also were on social media. I surely did not intend to be cruel to them, and when my wife had talked to me about how they thought I hated them, it caused me to think. We live a long ways from them and see them maybe every couple of years and I felt I should express my intent was not to be mean and I surely did not intend to convey to them I hated them, because as it turned out that is how they thought I felt about them.

I did talk them and told them I was sorry and that I had made them think I hated them, I told did not hate them, I also said that while we see this from different points of view, I most certainly did not intend to make them feel as though I hated them and was sorry for being so inconsiderate. I have not been vocal about it since.

We probably won't get to debate my position from a biblical perspective, seeing as we live such a distance away.

I looked to Scripture of course to consider how I should believe, and Paul wrote about what our perspective should be. Paul addressed the Corinthians in 1 Cor 5:9-13. Paul tells them when he told them not to keep company with the sexually immoral people he didn't mean the unbelievers, he meant the believers who were living in sin. He says "What have I to do with judging those who are outside?" and then "Those who are outside God judges."

We have been privileged in this nation to have had moral people involved in the making of laws and policies, in fact, they were involved in the forming of our republic, but in the recent past history, that moral Christian influence has waned and we have witnessed our society less and less influenced by Juseo-Christian values.

While considering what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 5 the Church needs to be concerned with how Christians live, and I surely don't need to iterate to anyone that the world looks at the Church and sees not much difference in how professing Christians live compared to non-Christians. Then Christians tell them homosexuality is a sin and they have no reason to believe we know what we're talking about.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:37 am

Excellent comment, Mark F! Thank you!
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:46 am

I find it hard to believe that in the UNited States, we have so little witnessing and churches and bibles, that there are many who don't know what scripture says about ANY issue of sin.....believers......unbelievers.......
When a person has been given a witness to Christ.....Who He is, Why He came.....all of it......and they continue to refuse to accept Him, His salvation and His subsequent reign over our lives....can they say, on judgment day, I did not know?

When the church goes silent and refuses to hurt feelings, and since the truth hurts, we must all shut our mouths and not speak it....will there be any salt left on the planet?

I am not saying we should be jerks...of course not....and I try not to be a jerk, but I do believe we must continue to be honest about it all....to believers and yes, to unbelievers. If an unbeliever asks me if they can continue to be a homosexual and be saved, I feel I have an obligation to tell them that as far as I know, the answer is no, they cannot continue to live in that sin, as it is a sin against creation and procreation, and the Lord has specific scriptures about the destiny of those who do that......I CAN continue to say that this is not the only sin the Lord condemns and goes so far as to call an abomination, and in respect for other's feelings, I would.

I guess the question here is whether someone asks ME or not.
Sometimes, just by what I post on social media (such as this site, and primarily here and maybe one other), I speak my thoughts on the subject (and acknowledge scripture on it)....so, if they are researching, and come across my opinion, then ok.....they will get it....I didn't go find them to give it to them.

The matter of social media is another thing altogether.....and I dont do it, because I want to avoid all the conflict and back and forth there, because I don't care for it....

but I do care for straight and real and honest feedback, which is what I strive for here.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:25 am

Could it be possible that this sign was Spirit-led?

?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Jericho on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:52 pm

Pastor Loses Job After Church Sign Stating ‘Homosexuality Is Still A Sin’ Causes Uproar
Pastor Justin Hoke of Trinity Bible Presbyterian Church in Weed, California, has lost his job following both community and alleged internal backlash over the language used in his most recent church sign.

In early January, Hoke designed a sign that read: "Bruce Jenner is still a man. Homosexuality is still a sin. The culture may change. The Bible does not."

...

The pastor also noted that he wasn’t "fired," but that the church faced a potential fracture in the wake of the fervor surrounding the sign, and that in order to keep the church intact, he felt it was best to vacate his position. Hoke repeatedly stated that he wanted to be circumspect in the way he spoke about the incident because he "loves" the people at Trinity Bible Presbyterian.


More https://www.dailywire.com/news/42112/pa ... frank-camp

You can agree or disagree if this sign was the best way to win converts, BUT nothing he said was factually incorrect. All this over simply speaking the truth... in America no less. "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

https://www.dailywire.com/podcasts/4213 ... l-position
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:07 pm

Yup.

Speaking the truth.

Coming soon to a city near you!

:eek:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:26 pm

Well, I've said numerous times before that the favorite sins of Christians are homosexuality and abortion.

How would we view it is that church sign posted a picture of that pastor who committed suicide after it was discovered he signed up on Ashley Madison website? After all, there were an estimated 32 million names discovered and 400 (at least) were pastors.

Baptist minister John Gibson's body was discovered by his minister wife Christi in their New Orleans home in August along with a suicide note which acknowledged his shame at being exposed.


I sometimes watch a program that features people over the 600 lb. mark on the scale. How would it be accepted if a picture of one of those were posted on the church sign?

Gluttony is perhaps the most tolerated sin in American Christianity.
link

Another abomination is the huge number of clergy who are found guilty of child sexual molestation. Let's see a picture of a Baptist Pastor on the sign to warn moms and dads of the danger to their children when they go to church.

Perhaps Paul should have written "such ARE some of you....." (1 Cor. 6)

To the best of my knowledge, Jesus never exposed the sin of anyone publicly. He ate with sinners; accepted their hospitality; offered love, grace, mercy, and forgiveness. He offered living water, light, abundant life, peace, and joy. He was lifted up and He will draw all men to Himself if we present the Savior the same way He did to others. Sin, condemnation, and fear ought not be the focus of our testimonies and sermons, but rather those free gifts He has for whosoever will lest the world see us as hypocrites. :(
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:45 pm

I had the below scripture in mind when I wrote my comments earlier. I wish I had gotten back sooner to post it within my post, sorry, and since other comments have been posted, I will have to post this now.
I am simply trying to say that we should all warn believers and non believers alike that God is God, and God's Word says what it says, and EVERY KNEE WILL BOW.....those of the believers and non believers alike, but what is going thru the minds of each individual as their knee is bowed will be an altogether different thing. We will not all be on the same page, and I want everyone to know God will not change for any of us, but we can each change for Him.....and while giving up a sin may hurt (so we think, because we all love our sins), when we do so, we are always so blessed in that we get to experience an unadulterated relationship with the Lord. ....

Ezekiel 33: 6

But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Mark F on Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:07 pm

Following what Abiding just posted,

Jesus wanted conversion, and when the sinner left thier life of sin it was fruit showing that the seed feel on the good soil.

If they go back to the life of sin, Paul says that's how we know they weren't of us.

I will tell people what the Scripture says if asked, but expecting the uncovered to live as converted has no Scriptural basis.

The most important thing for us is to walk the walk, not talk the talk.


GodsStudent, you posted when I was composing my post. Although I don't disagree outright, I find it best to proceed with caution when quoting Old Testament law, Jesus came because the law was a hard taskmaster and the people could not bear it, therefore Jesus came to fulfill the righteous requirement of the the law for us. Our responsibility after grace is to live righteously because we are saved, but quoting Moses will do more to drive people away when you can't say it in context. When preachers preach or people witness the law can be quoted to show people their sinfulness, but grace must quickly follow and in the case of the church sign that isn't possible.

That is my point, I hope it's clear.
Mark

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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Jericho on Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:46 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Well, I've said numerous times before that the favorite sins of Christians are homosexuality and abortion.


Abiding, yes and I've said numerous times it's because homosexuality and abortion have been politicized (and not by us). Here's the issue as I see. Homosexuality has been used as a Trojan Horse by the LGBT activists to introduce\indoctrinate the public into retro-paganism. And pagan cultures are not known for their hospitality toward Christians. It has by far become the greatest threat to Christianity, and if left uncheck will lead to criminalization\persecution (It's already happening in Canada & Europe). It has also opened the door to a lot of other ungodly things. I recently saw a story about an 11-year old drag queen. This is where all this is going. If you want to know why specifically homosexuality is singled out and opposed the way it is by many Christians, there you have it.

Abiding in His Word wrote:How would we view it is that church sign posted a picture of that pastor who committed suicide after it was discovered he signed up on Ashley Madison website? After all, there were an estimated 32 million names discovered and 400 (at least) were pastors.

Another abomination is the huge number of clergy who are found guilty of child sexual molestation. Let's see a picture of a Baptist Pastor on the sign to warn moms and dads of the danger to their children when they go to church.


I think we can all agree that adultery, gluttony, molestation, etc. are all bad, BUT I don't see the need of resorting to whataboutism every time this subject is breached. It is as if you try to minimize any valid concerns and criticisms about homosexuality, and how it poses a threat to Christians.

Abiding in His Word wrote:To the best of my knowledge, Jesus never exposed the sin of anyone publicly. He ate with sinners; accepted their hospitality; offered love, grace, mercy, and forgiveness. He offered living water, light, abundant life, peace, and joy.


True, but Jesus didn't hang out with sinners just for the sake of hanging out. He did it to reveal their sins to them to bring them to repentance. “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Mark 2:17. And he also didn't sugarcoat the truth. “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.” ( Mark 6:11). If you look at the people Jesus actually had fellowship with, they were his apostles. Especially his inner-circle of Peter, James, and John.

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? (2Co 6:15)

And what accord has Christ with Belial (the devil)? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? (2Co 6:16)
Last edited by Jericho on Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:01 pm

Mark, I think that Jesus reference the OT passage that GS quoted with this statement: -

Matthew 5:21-26: - 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother,'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


It is important to remember that if we leave a brother in the state of foolishness, then we have effectively condemn him to the second death and as such we have effectively murdered him by our actions.

We are to be a light to the world drawing the lost souls to Christ. If the salt has lost its saltiness then it is worthless and is thrown out by men.

Luke 14:34-35: - 34 "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"


If we are disciples of Christ, then we will be obedient to Christ's voice and draw the people we rub shoulders with on a daily basis into Christ's salvation work of redemption.

In the Parable of the Judgement of the nations, i.e. the separation of the Sheep and the Goats, we as His Disciples are to lift the heavy burdens off of people, we are to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, look after the widows and the orphans as if we are doing it unto Christ with no expectation of a reward greater than any other true disciple of Christ's reward.

If we ask Christ to include those around us in those whom He draws to Himself, then we too should be helping to draw the same people to Christ as well. We need to be putting legs on what we believe in what ever small way we can.

Shalom
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:06 pm

Just to reality check . . . is it fairly agreed then that the Holy Spirit could not have worked in this pastor to put up this sign?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:01 pm

Jericho wrote: Abiding, yes and I've said numerous times it's because homosexuality and abortion have been politicized (and not by us). Here's the issue as I see. Homosexuality has been used as a Trojan Horse by the LGBT activists to introduce\indoctrinate the public into retro-paganism. And pagan cultures are not known for their hospitality toward Christians. It has by far become the greatest threat to Christianity, and if left uncheck will lead to criminalization\persecution (It's already happening in Canada & Europe). It has also opened the door to a lot of other ungodly things. I recently saw a story about an 11-year old drag queen. This is where all this is going. If you want to know why specifically homosexuality is singled out and opposed the way it is by many Christians, there you have it.


Jericho, while you see homosexuality as the greatest threat to Christianity, I'm confused as to why you don't see the sins of Christians (adultery, sexual abuse, pedophilia, gluttony, greed, etc.) as the greatest threat since they exist within the very community that knows they are sins. Many, if not most, homosexuals do not believe their lifestyle is sinful. Why, then do we feel compelled to convince them of the necessity to conform to the same values we claim we have?

I think we can all agree that adultery, gluttony, molestation, etc. are all bad, BUT I don't see the need of resorting to whataboutism every time this subject is breached. It is as if you try to minimize any valid concerns and criticisms about homosexuality, and how it poses a threat to Christians.


I do see the need because I'm appalled at our continual focus at homosexuality and/or abortion and lack of focus on a myriad of other grave sins that we ourselves are guilty of. It's myopic to say the least imo. Years ago divorce was the sin of finger-pointing choice and adultery was the only legal reason to obtain one. Silly, really, since adultery is rarely committed where it could be witnessed but rather in secret between two willing individuals. Today, we have a "no-fault" divorce, but that hasn't seemed to led Christians to run to the courts to get one, has it? In fact, those who are divorced are actually somewhat persecuted by many churches in that they are not allowed to become members.

So again, I ask...why do we consistently focus on homosexuality when there are other sins equally grievous according to Paul.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1Cor. 6:9-10  

True, but Jesus didn't hang out with sinners just for the sake of hanging out. He did it to reveal their sins to them to bring them to repentance.


And he also didn't sugarcoat the truth. “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.” ( Mark 6:11).


If you look at that scripture in it's context as in Matt. 10:5, you will see that Jesus is sending the disciples out to witness to the Jews. They knew the scriptures about the coming Messiah as there were some 350 prophecies foretelling His arrival. The disciples were specifically told to not go to the gentiles at that time...."first to the Jews". Because of their knowledge of scripture, those Jews would have no excuse for refusing the message of the gospel from the disciples.

If you look at the people Jesus actually had fellowship with, they were his apostles. Especially his inner-circle of Peter, James, and John.


Mark 2:15  And it *happened that He was reclining at the table in his house, and many tax collectors and sinners were dining with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many of them, and they were following Him. 

The Pharisees were criticizing Jesus for his association with them. The gospel clearly shows Jesus a friend of sinners, outcasts, and those who were ostracized primarily by the self-righteous.

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? (2Co 6:15)

And what accord has Christ with Belial (the devil)? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? (2Co 6:16)


Makes perfect sense....One shouldn't marry a known pedophile. One who is an alcoholic shouldn't join the "Free Scotch Every Friday" club at the local tavern. A reformed drug addict should not participate in distributing pot to the high school students to earn money. The depth of association is the focus not the complete lack of association.

In Jesus’ day, rabbis and other spiritual leaders were the highest members of Jewish society. Everyone looked up to the Pharisees. They were strict adherents to the Law and tradition, and they avoided those whom they deemed “sinners” because they had a “clean” image to maintain. Tax collectors, infamous for embezzlement and their cooperation with the hated Romans, definitely fell into the “sinner” category.

As Jesus’ ministry grew, so did His popularity among the social outcasts of society.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Mark F on Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:39 pm

mark s wrote:Just to reality check . . . is it fairly agreed then that the Holy Spirit could not have worked in this pastor to put up this sign?

Much love!
Mark


Yes indeed. There could have been someone that drove by it that needed to see if, but in that public display I think it comes across as very condemning, it's not a message they haven't heard.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:56 pm

Mark F wrote:Following what Abiding just posted,

Jesus wanted conversion, and when the sinner left thier life of sin it was fruit showing that the seed feel on the good soil.

If they go back to the life of sin, Paul says that's how we know they weren't of us.

I will tell people what the Scripture says if asked, but expecting the uncovered to live as converted has no Scriptural basis.

The most important thing for us is to walk the walk, not talk the talk.


GodsStudent, you posted when I was composing my post. Although I don't disagree outright, I find it best to proceed with caution when quoting Old Testament law, Jesus came because the law was a hard taskmaster and the people could not bear it, therefore Jesus came to fulfill the righteous requirement of the the law for us. Our responsibility after grace is to live righteously because we are saved, but quoting Moses will do more to drive people away when you can't say it in context. When preachers preach or people witness the law can be quoted to show people their sinfulness, but grace must quickly follow and in the case of the church sign that isn't possible.

That is my point, I hope it's clear.


OK, Mark, so I have upset you because I am willing to tell a person who asks me (IF I AM ASKED) what scripture says about this particular sin (even though what I was describing was sanctification, and that I do believe that people must stop doing things the scriptures call abominations if they want salvation).......

But....I have an outright question.

If you are approached by a person claiming to be saved or an unsaved person who claims to be homosexual, are you going to tell them they can continue to be a homosexual and rejoice in the salvation they can expect to have???

I am serious, because I do not believe a person can be born again and marry someone of the same sex.

That is my belief....bottom line.

What is yours? Is a person saved and will they go to heaven if they are homosexual??????

I would only be willing to tell someone I believe THEY CANNOT, because I want them to have salvation.....to me, THAT is more loving than dancing around the subject, not telling them the truth, and letting them die in their sin and go to hell.

BOTTOM LINE.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:17 pm

Also, I absolutely do believe that Christians who really are saved get "caught up" in one sin or another, but they know.....THEY KNOW....in their spirit that they cannot do this or that thing....have this or that thing....and they have to turn away from that sin and go back to the Lord.......
Yes, they can be and are forgiven.....for that one and the next one that they may get caught up in.....
but they cannot resolve in their mind that they will have their sin and their salvation too and live.....
hardening their heart to it......and walk up in God's house with the person they are adultering with or living in fornication with or whatever....and expect to be able to do that for the rest of their life......and expect their salvation to be real.....I believe Jesus will say to that person, depart from me, I never knew you.....
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Mark F on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:46 pm

GodsStudent,

I didn't mean to imply that I was upset, actually I admire your zeal for the Scriptures.

I would never encourage a Christian to live in sin, my first post covers this. My point is that the issue of sin is most necessary when a professing Christian is the one living in sin, such as a homosexual.

My point is that unbelievers need to be converted before they can be expected to live righteously.

Jay Ross pointed out that Jesus used the law to show people their sin but Jesus always followed up with forgiveness, by grace, He didn't just point out their sin. All I wanted to highlight is that when the message of sin is put to a person, say a homosexual, a message like the sign comes across as hateful on the part of the Christian. That kind of message needs to be personal where you can immediately follow up with forgiveness in Christ is all I'm saying.
Mark

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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:49 pm

When I was 18 years old, I was living with someone out of wedlock. I had been raised in a church and knew better and at some point, it got to me really bad. You see, I desired to have that relationship with God, but I loved this boy I was living with, was not ready at all to marry him, and I wanted to continue living with him, but found it impossible to do, and it got so bad I had to call my grandmother and ask her questions about it.

THIS IS WHY I KEEP SAYING IF SOMEONE ASKS ME....TO BE CLEAR, I NEVER AND NEVER WOULD JUST WALK UP TO A HOMOSEXUAL PERSON AND START TELLING THEM WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS OR THAT I HAVE AN OPINION OR KNOWLEDGE AND IT IS THAT THEY ARE LIVING IN SIN.....

I digress.....I wanted to speak to a CHristian about my situation, so I called my grandmother and told her that I loved the boy, was enjoying fornicating with him and wanted to keep living with him, but inside my spirit, I was troubled and worried that this was somehow separating me from the Lord, or could if I kept doing it.
She, of course, told me the truth about the fact that I could not call myself born again and harden my heart and continue to live that way....so, I turned from that sin, because I desired to have a relationship with and be with the Lord, here and now, and forever.
I moved out and made direct choices about not doing this thing that pleased the Lord.

Five years later, at age 23, I fell in love with a married (separated, but married) man. Again, I got caught up in a sin. I also lived with him for a brief period. ....and again, it was both his and my love for the Lord that caused us to walk away from each other. Literally on the same day he moved out, he told me he wanted to be married to me and we told each other that he had to go back to his wife....and he did.....that day. I was sick about it and the worst of it all was the shame I felt because I had done this thing. I was so embarrassed and ashamed and realized what a phony I was.....after the dust settled and I had a chance to come to my senses about what I had done and what it really was. While in the sin, I was so caught up in my "love" that I lost complete sense of reality....but believe me, it came to me after the fact, and the shame was so terrible I hope I never have to feel that again ever!!!

Born again people slip up, but if the spirit of the Lord is with us, we cannot continue to live and do sins. I am not ashamed now to tell you that I have sinned before and that I sin today in ways and that I dont have a lot of hope for myself that I will never sin again.....
but I can absolutely tell you that my spirit knows better when it comes down to it, and it simply will not allow me to just do as I please.......

Homosexuals who love the Lord will have this battle to contend with, because the Holy Spirit will not allow them to continue on doing these things. Same with all the other sins out there.....we must pick up our cross and go back to our Father, confess our sins, and strive with Him......we must, if we are His.

I am not a homosexual basher because I will speak the truth IF ASKED.....I am a Christian, and believe me, I have my own stories to draw from if and when I speak with them.....but the bottom line does not and will not change, and the truth is going to come out of me.....I call it love and you can call it whatever you want.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:49 pm

...and Mark, I was writing my post when you posted....seems we are both active on this thread this evening.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Mark F on Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:39 pm

Good post GodsStudent, I can relate....I know your pain.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Jericho on Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:23 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Jericho, while you see homosexuality as the greatest threat to Christianity, I'm confused as to why you don't see the sins of Christians (adultery, sexual abuse, pedophilia, gluttony, greed, etc.)


Put it this way, it is the greatest existential threat to Christians in the West. And I'm speaking specifically of the agenda behind it. Just yesterday an Episcopal bishop was reprimanded because he had banned same-sex marriages in his diocese. He said the same things I've been saying:

Love wrote in an eight-page letter in November that: “The Episcopal Church and Western Society have been hijacked by the ‘Gay Rights Agenda,’ which is very well organized, very strategic, very well financed, and very powerful.”

“Jesus is calling the Church to follow His example. He is calling the Church to have the courage to speak His Truth in love about homosexual behavior — even though it isn’t politically correct,” Love wrote.

“Sexual relations between two men or two women was never part of God’s plan and is a distortion of His design in creation and as such is to be avoided. To engage in sexual intimacy outside of marriage between a man and women, is against God’s will and therefore sinful and needs to be repented of, NOT encouraged or told it is OK.”

He added: “Satan is having a heyday bringing division into the Church over these issues.”


https://therightscoop.com/episcopal-chu ... marriages/

I do see the need because I'm appalled at our continual focus at homosexuality and/or abortion and lack of focus on a myriad of other grave sins that we ourselves are guilty of. It's myopic to say the least imo. Years ago divorce was the sin of finger-pointing choice and adultery was the only legal reason to obtain one. Silly, really, since adultery is rarely committed where it could be witnessed but rather in secret between two willing individuals. Today, we have a "no-fault" divorce, but that hasn't seemed to led Christians to run to the courts to get one, has it? In fact, those who are divorced are actually somewhat persecuted by many churches in that they are not allowed to become members.


I'm confused now, because first you say we are too focus on homosexuality and abortion and not focused enough on other grave sins, but then complain that we were too focused on adultery. Which is it? They were right to focus on divorce also. Divorce and the devaluation of marriage is what paved the way for same sex marriage to begin with.

And when you say sins we ourselves are guilty of, who do you speak of? I think you tend to generalize the sins of certain members in the church onto everyone, as if they are corporate sins. I am not guilty of anyone elses sin no more than they are guilty of mine. And if I do sin and repent, redemption has already been provided so it is as if that sin never happened.

So again, I ask...why do we consistently focus on homosexuality when there are other sins equally grievous according to Paul.


I think I've tried to make it clear as I possibly can. But I guess this is something we are not going to agree on.

The depth of association is the focus not the complete lack of association.


I don't disagree with this. I don't think we should close ourselves off to the world and never associate with unbelievers, which is impossible anyways. But again the level of association does matter. Get too close with sinners and chances are they will influence you more than you will influence them. https://www.revelation.co/2009/08/03/wh ... nners-eat/
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:07 pm

I dont think that when we talk about homosexuality on this site (because it is a big deal and getting bigger by the minute in our society) that we are trying to exclude other sins.
I did not share my shameful youth choices on this site to publicly degrade myself, I shared them to say that, for the believer (and the saved), the Holy Spirit DOES convict us while in our sin, so much so that we do have to get to a place where we choose to harden our hearts to the beckonings of the Lord, or repent of the sin and stop doing it. This is a process of sanctification, and it has, for me, started with really big sins, but never seems to stop, as I am constantly having to look at myself, because of discomfort in my spirit, about how I handle all sorts of things, and how I could do better (translated, be more Christlike). This is my description of what it's actually like to be a believer.

When speaking to the unbelieving, false conversions do them no good, and we have to be honest with them about what scriptures say regarding all sorts of sins they may have in their life, and about what it means to be a born again believer and live the life thereof. Salvation isn't simply about "accepting the gift of it" from Christ. Those flyers we Christians pass out is day 1, page 1...and not the full story. Unless we are complete morons, I would hope we could share in honesty and especially in love and kindness, and who among a true born again crowd doesn't have a testimony about their life before being reborn.....but in fairness to unbeliever, we cant act as if we dont know that NO!....upon being born again, some stuff that is going on in their life won't fly.....and at some point, repentance is going to have to happen, because the Word is very clear about a lot of sins, and the Holy Spirit is going to beckon them to change....that is my testimony.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby mark s on Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:01 pm

How long do you think it could take for someone who had been brainwashed all their life into believing that their particular brand of sin was hard-wired into them, was perfectly normal, not even sin? Then they become saved, truly born again . . . how long might it take for victory to establish itself? How long might someone not even really believe that it was wrong?

A behavior, a lifestyle engaged in for years, maybe decades. Taken as a mere fact of life. This mystery person comes to realize, over time, this behavior is wrong, and in fact has now stolen much from them over their life. But then even automatically returning to it over and over. Consciously denying it, but inside wanting . . . conflicted.

I didn't believe it was wrong, I never even really thought about it. It was just how I lived life. It was just me. Even as a Christian for many many years, I didn't think that what I was doing was wrong. And even once I came to realize, and tried to begin to curtail my behavior, well, I still have trouble even to now with buying things I don't actually need, that I'd be better hanging on to the money. Yes, folks, I have a shopping problem. I have other problems too. Even though I've been a Christian so many years!

:(

Is this actually different? Aren't all sins simply the flesh working it's works? Whatever brand? I'm thinking focus on whatever sins the people recognize that are sins, that would be where the Holy Spirit would be convicting them, right? Someone could have a same sex issue, and not see that as sin, but they understand that when they've been mean to others that's wrong. Or they may simply see the emptiness of life without something more, and we show them life without God is death, but that they can have life in him.

Oh . . . and several individuals are called out in Scripture. One of them, Herod, was for adultery. This is more than just a sign on a road, this is the Book given to humanity by God. Of course, it did end up costing John his head. Not bad company, if you think of it that way. I'm not saying whether this was right or not, I don't know.

Much love!
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:02 pm

You know what, life is really funny....No, seriously, REALLY FUNNY.

I got a Happy NY text on 1-01 from a phone number I knew, but no name came up. I texted back to ask who it was. Took a while, but three days ago, the owner identified herself. This is a friend (my daughter's friends mother, who, as a result of us chasing our kids around together, actually became a pretty good friend over the years). This "friend"....I'll call her Mary.....
Mary's husband and kids and my family went on vacations together as our kids grew up. They were a family, we were a family. A few years back, Mary confided in me that her husband was being abusive, stalking her.....not pretty. She ended up asking him to move out, which after about 7 months, he finally did. There are lots of details that would make the story more interesting, but....here it is...Mary's daughter that was my daughter's age went with the father to another state....and Mary and I lost contact.
I heard from someone a few months after this whole series of changes that Mary was now involved with a woman.

Mary called me today. It's been several years now and Mary and this woman are still together....
Mary and I went to church together and she still goes to church every Sunday....same church.

Thought all of you might enjoy MY particular update on this thread because I feel like many think I don't understand and the minute I hear someone is gay, I am going to pick up my bible and throw it at them. NOT TRUE. It is NOT MY JOB to save someone else (even if they feel like they are already saved and quite happy to be going to church to the minute).

I told all of you in my story about my sorded affairs in prior posts that it was ME....I felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit and I picked up the phone and I worked it out with my grandmother....she didn't call me. That's the thing. .....By the time I called my grandmother.....I WAS READY TO HEAR WHAT SHE HAD TO SAY.....I was willing to do whatever I had to do to make the pain go away.

Now....Mary is back in my life and after talking to her for an hour, I still love her to death....she and I have well working minds (she interests me).....and while I will have trouble engaging in regular activities with her and her girlfriend, I certainly won't shut her out of my life purely on the basis that she's practicing this sin....just like I wouldn't shut anyone else out of my life purely for their sins. I don't have to be God or the Holy Spirit.....now....that said, I do have to be Lisa....and LIsa is not allowing Lisa to go to gay marriage ceremonies.....Lisa is not going to make it a habit of hanging out with Mary and her lesbian friends.....but Lisa can have a relationship with Mary.....that will likely have some distance and not regular contact, because Lisa is not going to regularly hang out anywhere she doesn't feel comfortable, and that includes bars, nightclubs, places where others are using drugs, dinner parties where morals are loose and judgment is lacking.....
But I won't be throwing my bible at her.....and, if she gets convicted at any time...and wants to talk to me.....I will lovingly tell her what I know to be scriptural.....I am a willing servant.....and a decent human being......
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:32 pm

Jericho wrote:Put it this way, it is the greatest existential threat to Christians in the West. And I'm speaking specifically of the agenda behind it. Just yesterday an Episcopal bishop was reprimanded because he had banned same-sex marriages in his diocese. He said the same things I've been saying:


He can ban them in "his church" but that won't stop them from getting married. And was he aware of a number of homosexuals in that diocese who were requesting marriage ceremonies in his church, or was he simply focusing (once again) on one of Christians' favorite sins to bring attention to? Whatever spurred him to make such a ban will certainly not stop those who are determined to marry. Since there is nothing I'm aware of that limits clergy to perform a marriage, they will find another avenue for their purpose.

“Jesus is calling the Church to follow His example. He is calling the Church to have the courage to speak His Truth in love about homosexual behavior — even though it isn’t politically correct,” Love wrote.


Did he quote a passage in scripture as evidence Jesus is calling for courage to speak the truth about homosexual behavior? If he had the courage to speak the truth about homosexual behavior, did he mention that it was Paul who spoke about that particular sin and always included others:

  Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals...1Cor. 6:9

.... and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching...1Tim. :10


Jericho, when was the last time you heard a sermon on adultery, fornication, lying, kidnapping, or immorality (porn?)

“Sexual relations between two men or two women was never part of God’s plan and is a distortion of His design in creation and as such is to be avoided. To engage in sexual intimacy outside of marriage between a man and women, is against God’s will and therefore sinful and needs to be repented of, NOT encouraged or told it is OK.”


If he knows Christians who are saying it's OK for any sexual intimacy outside of marriage, then indeed...preach it in a sermon on Sunday. Or arrange a study on this topic of immorality on Wed. night. But if he (or anyone else) thinks that imposing guilt, shame, and/or fear is the way to draw sinners to Jesus, I strongly disagree.

He added: “Satan is having a heyday bringing division into the Church over these issues.”


Healthy debate and different opinions are not necessarily a bad thing. We are individuals with a variety of backgrounds, ethnic and cultural experiences, etc. and can learn from one another and hopefully respect those differences. Communication and clarification of opinions can do just the opposite: bring us to an understanding of one another, especially the young to the more mature.

I'm confused now, because first you say we are too focus on homosexuality and abortion and not focused enough on other grave sins, but then complain that we were too focused on adultery. Which is it?


Thank you for asking for clarification. My complaint was intended as a bit of sarcasm about how whatever sin happens to be in vogue at whatever time in history, becomes the subject of the loudest, strongest, almost cruel lambasting from the pulpit. Kind of like a Jonathan Edwards type of sermon focusing on the wickedness and evil and how the sinner is condemned to hell if he/she doesn't repent....Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.... This is contrary to Paul's confession to the Ephesians that he too formerly lived in the lusts of flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

BUT....

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...Eph 2:4-5 

They were right to focus on divorce also. Divorce and the devaluation of marriage is what paved the way for same sex marriage to begin with.


hmmm...."Al Mohler's Unbiblical Belief that New Testament Gender Equality Means Affirming Homosexuality" link

I'd be interested in seeing the evidence for divorce and devaluation of marriage paving the way for same sex marriage.

And when you say sins we ourselves are guilty of, who do you speak of? I think you tend to generalize the sins of certain members in the church onto everyone, as if they are corporate sins. I am not guilty of anyone elses sin no more than they are guilty of mine. And if I do sin and repent, redemption has already been provided so it is as if that sin never happened.


Again, thank you for asking for clarification. I think you will agree that even saved, born-again, bible-believing Christians are sinners. Different sins no doubt, but the probability that some among the faithful include divorce, immorality, greed, theft, lying, domestic violence, and gossip. So while I don't necessarily like the term "corporate," I think we will agree that all members of the universal Body of Christ are sinners saved by grace.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby mark s on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:43 pm

Hi Lisa,

As you demonstrate in your transparency (bless you!), understanding things about ourselves tends to make us less judgmental of others, which, in my view, makes us better servants.

I think of humility as "understanding and accepting the truth about myself". I don't have a leg up on anyone! We're only here to serve. I believe we, God's children, are in this world for one primary reason, to build the body of Chirst, both by drawing into the kingdom, and then bringing maturity within the kingdom, with it's resultant glory as we become like Jesus.

I hope I remember to pray for you and Mary as (hopefully) the Holy Spirit is giving you the opportunity to build her!

Much love!
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:18 am

Hi Mark:

This discussion has been enlightening and my transparency is an act of humility, because my goal, in my writing, is to demonstrate to others and remind myself of where I came from, what happened then to get me from there to here, and in my understanding of the life I've lived, to help others, when called, to get them from where they are to where the Lord leads and desires for them to be.

Love is critical to all of us. The Lord's love for me has enabled me to see what it did for me and that is what will always drive me to desire for others to have the same.

My acquaintance "Mary" doesn't want to hear from me on my opinion of her life, nor am I interested in volunteering it, for me to do so at this moment would cause her to retaliate and turn away from me. That said, if the time ever comes that she searches to resolve the pain this sin is causing her (a private matter she is aware of, that niggling in the back of her mind and in her heart, that she really isn't happy and she really doesn't feel complete in her life right now, because separation from God is something all believers can feel, and it is our sin and ignoring the private utterances of the Holy Spirit that causes this), I will be ready to talk to her, understanding her situation, and understanding the solution.

It isn't my time or timing, but hers and the Lords. That said, I, and I hope, many others, are near her to ensure that there is salt and light for her. We all need it.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Jericho on Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:25 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:And was he aware of a number of homosexuals in that diocese who were requesting marriage ceremonies in his church, or was he simply focusing (once again) on one of Christians' favorite sins to bring attention to?


Abiding,
He was trying to set a moral standard, one that was already established in the Bible. After all, Christ is the head of the church not the Presiding Bishop or anyone else. The Episcopal church has very much embraced homosexuality, even allowing same sex marriages and gay and lesbian "ministers". This has caused some members to leave the Episcopal church. If you don't see that this should be unacceptable in a church of God, then you have been more influenced by the world than the bible.

Whatever spurred him to make such a ban will certainly not stop those who are determined to marry.


Oh, I'm sure. Just like people who are determined to have an abortion will have one no matter what, and that is true for any sin. But that doesn't mean that we as Christians have to accept or condone it, especially in our churches.

Jericho, when was the last time you heard a sermon on adultery, fornication, lying, kidnapping, or immorality (porn?)


How do you know they haven't? Have you heard every sermon in every church in America recently? Chances are if they are a bible believing church they have addressed these at some point.

If he knows Christians who are saying it's OK for any sexual intimacy outside of marriage, then indeed...preach it in a sermon on Sunday.


Wasn't he essentially doing that, and getting shut down for it? I would include same sex marriage as sexual immorality outside marriage, because it is an imitation of marriage and a mockery of what God intended marriage to be. Marriage is not human invention, and it doesn't belong to him to redefine.

But if he (or anyone else) thinks that imposing guilt, shame, and/or fear is the way to draw sinners to Jesus, I strongly disagree.


Telling the truth is not imposing shame and guilt. And people have actually gotten saved through fire and brimstone sermons. Not everyone comes to Christ in the same way. Some people respond to love and compassion, for others it takes something stronger. I told the story before of how my father came to Christ. He rejected the alter call twice, on the third time he actually heard a voice telling him that if he rejected it again he would be d-amned forever. Guess what he did as soon as the alter call was given.

Kind of like a Jonathan Edwards type of sermon focusing on the wickedness and evil and how the sinner is condemned to hell if he/she doesn't repent


I don't know anything about Jonathan Edwards, but how many did he bring to Christ with that same approach you disagree with? We've gone over this topic before, but I do believe the message should correspond to the audience. Some people are more responsive to the gospel and respond better to love and compassion. Others have hardness in their hearts and it takes someone like Jonathan Edwards to get through to them. I'm not saying one approach is better than the other, I'm saying there's room for both.

hmmm...."Al Mohler's Unbiblical Belief that New Testament Gender Equality Means Affirming Homosexuality" link


I don't know who that is or the relevance of it.

I'd be interested in seeing the evidence for divorce and devaluation of marriage paving the way for same sex marriage.


I think it is a logical conclusion. The acceptance and ease of divorce made marriage less meaningful. If marriage is no longer an honored and respected institution then redefining it is no big deal, and the next-step in the devaluation of marriage.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:36 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Its unfortunate. The church was asking for trouble in my opinion. First of all they should have left Bruce Jenner out of it. If they are doing a sermon series on homosexuality then just post the scripture- Let God do the talking.

I am not in favor of the church skirting politically charged topics, but there is a right way to do it and a wrong way, and this in my opinion was the wrong way.

Speak the truth in love- otherwise all you are is a bunch of irritating noise!

RT


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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Jan 17, 2019 2:50 pm

mark s wrote:Just to reality check . . . is it fairly agreed then that the Holy Spirit could not have worked in this pastor to put up this sign?

Much love!
Mark


Would this sign help Bruce Jenner get saved? Or like the woman caught in adultery, would he feel singled out and judged?
This is why people perceive Christians as hateful.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:29 pm

I don't remember hearing "kidnapping" mentioned in a sermon recently, all the rest, yes. In the men's prayer breakfast, and on Sunday morning.

What is the test of whether or not something could be of the Holy Spirit?

Now - to be perfectly clear - I don't know one way or the other on this, so for me it's an excellent topic for discussion.

John the Baptist condemned Herod's marriage to his brother's wife. One little assumption, it was public, or publicly known. Herod put John in prison for it, then killed him. Even if it was privately, given their servants and guards and all, nothing was private. Like I said, you can call it an assumption.

Was John expecting Herod to be saved by it?
Would it have seemed the popular thing to do?
Would it have seemed the smart thing to do?

These are what I'm pondering.

Much love!
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby mark s on Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:01 pm

I think Jesus was thought of very poorly by those who found his message inconvenient.

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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Ready1 on Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:06 pm

Does this scripture have any bearing on this topic?

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Just observing.

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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:33 pm

mark s wrote:I don't remember hearing "kidnapping" mentioned in a sermon recently, all the rest, yes. In the men's prayer breakfast, and on Sunday morning.

What is the test of whether or not something could be of the Holy Spirit?

Now - to be perfectly clear - I don't know one way or the other on this, so for me it's an excellent topic for discussion.

John the Baptist condemned Herod's marriage to his brother's wife. One little assumption, it was public, or publicly known. Herod put John in prison for it, then killed him. Even if it was privately, given their servants and guards and all, nothing was private. Like I said, you can call it an assumption.

Was John expecting Herod to be saved by it?
Would it have seemed the popular thing to do?
Would it have seemed the smart thing to do?



These are what I'm pondering.

Much love!
Mark


Perhaps the subject was inspired but the delivery wasn't?

Also the comparison of Herod and John isn't really a fair one. Herod was a Jew, he was considered the protector of Judaism. John also was a Jew. He wasn't trying to "witness" to Herod, he was calling him out as a fellow follower and so called leader and protector of the law.

This pastor we assume is a believer, his church sign, was a nonverbal communication, put out near the roadside for all to see, believers and nonbelievers alike. He wasn't communicating to anyone in particular, he was communicating to everyone who happened to see the sign. Everyone who sees these kinds of signs, knows that they serve as an advertisement for the church, simply put, it's a marketing tool. (I digress)

Maybe a better comparison would be the woman publicly condemned of adultery. Was she an adulteress- yes. Were those who had gathered within their rights to stone her- according to the law- yes. Could they have rallied others to join them in their condemnation of her- yes.

But what did Jesus say?

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

The fleshly response is to condemn the sinner, the Christlike response is to show mercy.

Seriously all the Pastor had to put on the sign was- "the culture may change, but the bible does not". Or maybe "immorality may be more acceptable today, but it is still sin in God's eyes". Why the mention of Bruce Jenner? For effect no doubt- to draw attention.

Clearly he did not think through the repercussions.

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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:36 am

Ready1 wrote:Does this scripture have any bearing on this topic?

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


I think it does. Yesterday, my husband and I were reading in Galatians 4 and I thought of this discussion. Its not on the topic of homosexuality, so much, but again, it could be as much as other sins.

It does matter whether we are more prepared to be honest with others about the bottom line matter of things concerning true conversions. I desire not to have my words, spoken in love, turned back on me and to me, such as would be the case if I confront anyone....and especially if I confront them and they were not seeking information about becoming a Christian, and/or turning away from their sin.....For I believe the Lord readies those whom (as if it were a mystery) end up approaching any of us about matters of salvation or, if they are believers and have gone wayward, matters of sanctification and turning away from their sin to stop their separation from the Lord (for in their heart there is a burning, at least in my life, that has been the case).

I do know this.....the Lord is using those who will serve Him, and who have salt and light in them. Some of you know I have severe physical pain issues and yesterday morning I saw a new doctor and a huge thing happened.....this doctor, having fresh eyes on my case and a very excellent understanding of many things related to pain management, took good time with me and actually was prepared to see me, formulated a good plan to start and gave me resources and hope....
This is a big deal for me, because I have been praying for months that the Lord would take me off this planet and bring me home. My despair has been inconsolable. After I left this doctor, I had peace and cried all day long in joy about what happened. My husband said the first part of our break through had come....he said it twenty times yesterday (he was with me at the doctor, of course, because this is significant in and to his life, too).

Late in the day, the Lord sent me someone to witness to who is in pain. I had no idea about her, but a friend of my husband's wife has very complicated pain issues and my husband told me that one of her doctors told her it was in her head, and it shattered her and she has/had lost hope. When I heard those words last night, I asked to speak to her, and I called her and we talked for maybe an hour and a half. She absolutely needed to hear from me, it turns out, a great many things she did not know about herself, her condition, and what to do about it. I could have NEVER shared all this with her had I not been prepared....Oh, and when I called, she and her husband were fighting and she was about to leave, actually had her purse in her hand. I talked to them about the love they have for each other and the marriage and a few other things and she put her purse up and we moved forward in a positive direction (I also scolded her husband for his behavior!).....

My point in all this talk is that I was uniquely prepared for everything that happened in that phone call. Through life experiences, I was able to witness to the couple about what they were doing to their marriage, and they listened...they were in pain and wanted the pain to stop.....then, I was able to witness and counsel to the pain patient who is literally considering suicide to get out of pain.....another thing I am uniquely familiar with and was able to counsel and help guide and give hope. We talked about how the phone call was clearly divinely appointed and how the Lord wanted her to hear and know and be plucked out of despair....just like He wanted the same for me.

Ya'll.....be prepared to be salt and light and the Lord will send you His children to counsel....and it won't always be pretty and/or a fun topic.....but be prepared if you want to serve Him.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby ToledoDebbie on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:35 am

Abiding, you made this statement, earlier in this discussion:

"Well, I've said numerous times before that the favorite sins of Christians are homosexuality and abortion."

Abiding, these sins are the only ones currently, that are mandated "by law", attempting to force all of society to accept the sinners behavior and actions. In fact, it has gone far beyond simply accepting homosexuality and abortion. Christians are now being persecuted if they don't revere, applaud and even encourage these individuals! If we simply choose to not participate in their lifestyle or choice and refuse to condone it, we are being attacked. No one is trying to FORCE Christians into accepting the actions of liars, adulterers or murderers, etc. I am always reminded that "it is not against flesh and blood that we fight, but, against the powers and principalities of EVIL." Evil forces within our Society have been indoctrinating and attempting to convince people for many years, that all kinds of immorality and sin are not only acceptable, but cool!

To drive home this point, my 16 year old granddaughter came home last year from school and declared to her Mother and I that she was Gay. I sat down and talked with her, asking her some basic questions about how she was feeling and it became very clear, almost immediately, that the "cool" kids in her school were the ones that were Gay. They were loved and protected and revered by most of the school, including the teachers and she wanted to be a part of that. My granddaughter wasn't Gay. She now has a boyfriend and I asked her one day about this and she admitted she just wanted to fit in and be one of the in-crowd. I do understand that there are individuals that experience strong feelings that lead them into homosexuality. But, the point I am making is this; how many of our young people, at very critical ages when they are developing their sexuality, are actually being enticed into a lifestyle that is not part of their true nature, simply to fit in with this culture? A culture that doesn't just accept being Gay as a choice, but, somehow is trying to make it appear to be a better choice to these impressionable young people??

Abortion is murder - I can't condone that, period the end. I believe that we must STAND against that being acceptable in our society and mandated by civil law. The leaders of the Gay community have a very EVIL agenda and that is what makes them dangerous and of great concern to Christians. They are demanding that their rights, their desires, their needs must be elevated above everyone else. Like I said earlier, it is no longer enough for them to be treated "equally", they demand "special" treatment. All scripture and biblical arguments aside, this is dangerous and will have a profound affect on our entire civilized society.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby mark s on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:41 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
mark s wrote:Was John expecting Herod to be saved by it?
Would it have seemed the popular thing to do?
Would it have seemed the smart thing to do?


Perhaps the subject was inspired but the delivery wasn't?

Also the comparison of Herod and John isn't really a fair one. Herod was a Jew, he was considered the protector of Judaism. John also was a Jew. He wasn't trying to "witness" to Herod, he was calling him out as a fellow follower and so called leader and protector of the law.


Hi RT,

I think the Herods were Idumaean, which would be to say Edomite.

OK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_Antipas#Family_tree

According to wikipedia, Herod Antipas was Idumaean/Nabatean/Samaritan.

But if John was a prophet in the OT sense, then why should we question his delivery?

This pastor we assume is a believer, his church sign, was a nonverbal communication, put out near the roadside for all to see, believers and nonbelievers alike. He wasn't communicating to anyone in particular, he was communicating to everyone who happened to see the sign. Everyone who sees these kinds of signs, knows that they serve as an advertisement for the church, simply put, it's a marketing tool. (I digress)


This is why I ask the question, is it impossible that he could have been led by the Holy Spirit to do this.

Maybe a better comparison would be the woman publicly condemned of adultery. Was she an adulteress- yes. Were those who had gathered within their rights to stone her- according to the law- yes. Could they have rallied others to join them in their condemnation of her- yes.


Of course Bruce Jenner has decided to make his sin into a lifestyle, and has chosen to make his lifestyle VERY prominent in our society.

I'm thinking Herod is the better analogy. A public figure called out publically.

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"

The fleshly response is to condemn the sinner, the Christlike response is to show mercy.


Did this pastor condemn Mr. Jenner? I don't see it myself. He simply declared the truth, against a culture that is telling lies. Bruce, or Caitlyn, or whatever he wants to call himself, Jenner is a man. No matter what cosmetic surguries are performed, he is still a man. Jesus called out the Pharisees publically - Hypocrits!! Brood of Vipers! You clean the outside, but inside you are full of dead men's bones!

Seriously all the Pastor had to put on the sign was- "the culture may change, but the bible does not". Or maybe "immorality may be more acceptable today, but it is still sin in God's eyes". Why the mention of Bruce Jenner? For effect no doubt- to draw attention.

Clearly he did not think through the repercussions.

RT


A lot of people are talking about this. The controversial message seems to have repeated his sign much further than just those driving down the road.

Again, I don't know whether this was Spirit led or not. And there seems to be no end of people who will hate you for telling the truth, whatever variety.

It's a pity to me that his congregation wouldn't stand with him. It's hard for me to imagine kicking my pastor to the curb like that.

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby mark s on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:59 am

According to the research I've done, some things really stand out to me.

Brains develop until early to mid-20's.
During brain development, life conditions and behaviors will be imprinted on the brain's structure and functioning.
Functional changes may be later modified, structural changes remain.
Brain structure and function are designed around the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors, in order to support the same.
Changes to a person's beliefs about themselves, how they choose, their behavior, any modifications to these will lead to modifications in their brain development.
Changes to a person's brain development tend to have a dramatic impact on a person's life.
Impacts to a person's life due to unnatural changes imposed on the brain can cause both immediate and delayed negative effects.

My wife has worked in the public school system for over 20 years as in Instructional Assistant. I am convinced that the spiritual powers of darkness have it in for our children, and are systematically using the public school system to destroy them.

Much love, but in heaviness! This is so sorrowful!

mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby mark s on Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:19 am

“Keep it in your church. If it’s not something hopeful for the community, if it’s not loving, keep it in your church,” Charolette Kalayjian, who helped organize the protest, told KOBI-TV. “Keep it in your house. Don’t share it with everybody.”


https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out ... ch-n959086

Oh . . . and with a factual error, as in so much of the reporting on this incident. They all say the pastor was fired, he wasn't. But it's like they don't have a good relationship with truth. They have to add lies to the lies.

"Speaking the truth in love"

Does this mean to tell what is true, but only in ways that make people feel good?

Does this mean to tell what is true no matter what because you are committed to the wellbeing of others?

This lady, Charolette Kalayjian, according to news sources, is an LGBTQ activist, who was also out raising money for the local LGBTQ high school support group. I wonder what her agenda is? Is that love?

She implies that this pastor's act was not loving. What is loving? To pull children into the destructive lifestyle of homosexuality, or to declare that this is not God's way?

Yeah. I'm absolutely certain that she strongly desires for us to keep ALL of that Bible stuff to ourselves! Especially when it declares that she is in the wrong. That she is destroying our children. Go ahead . . . protest. But I'm not fooled.

“I should be able to love my partner, to hold her, to hold her hand wherever I want to go and shouldn’t have people being hateful,” said Tawnya. “I don’t think that my kid should feel having two mothers is a bad thing.”


https://kobi5.com/news/peaceful-protest ... ign-93165/

Now there's love! Let a child grow up their whole life being taught that something the Bible declares to be a sin against their very body is perfectly fine!

I'm thinking . . . get ready. Everyone who is not willing to keep silence about what the Bible says about this and other topics will be heavily marginized, then persecuted. There is just more of this sort of thing to come. We won't have to say anything about anyone, just, homosexuality is sin. We will be hated and declared haters.

I think Bruce Jenner committed a sin against his body. Who is there that will say that? Pastor Hoke lost his opportunity. Is anyone else?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby GodsStudent on Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:39 am

“...I should be able to love my partner, to hold her, to hold her hand wherever I want to go and shouldn’t have people being hateful,” said Tawnya"



That lady needs to get over herself !!!!!

I am a white woman, married to a black man, for decades now....We live in the extremely conservative state of South Carolina (and it's filled with plenty of the good ol' boys"...and guess what.....

We aren't able to love our partners, hold each other and hold hands wherever we want.....and be free of people being hateful. It's life....there is so much diversity between people that it will always be impossible for anyone to be 100% loved by everyone. She's nuts and that is a pipedream.

A more realistic thing for her to desire, imo, is to be able to do that without having people hang you up in a tree, which I think she CAN reasonably expect theses days. We all get hateful looks by certain others with extremely different viewpoints, but we all live in this world together, and it's unlawful to commit hate crimes....against any of us for loving who we love and doing our thing.

Why do these people think they should get only love from everyone when none of us can honestly get that. They are bullies, imo....not the rest of society.

I hold my husband's hand in public all the time, get hateful looks sometimes, but it means absolutely nothing to us....and it never will until they put their hands on us, then my husband will handle it.....but until then....just do you, lady.
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Re: California church draws backlash for sign

Postby Ready1 on Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:02 pm

I think that this scripture directly bears upon this topic as well.

Joh 15:18 "If the world hates you, remember that it hated Me first.
Joh 15:19 The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you.
Joh 15:20 Do you remember what I told you? 'A slave is not greater than the master.' Since they persecuted Me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to Me, they would listen to you.
Joh 15:21 They will do all this to you because of Me, for they have rejected the one who sent Me.
Joh 15:22 They would not be guilty if I had not come and spoken to them. But now they have no excuse for their sin.
Joh 15:23 Anyone who hates Me also hates My Father.
Joh 15:24 If I hadn't done such miraculous signs among them that no one else could do, they would not be guilty. But as it is, they have seen everything I did, yet they still hate Me and My Father.
Joh 15:25 This fulfills what is written in their Scriptures: 'They hated Me without cause.'
Just observing.

E.
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