Homosexuality

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Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:06 pm

So my daughter who is almost 16 told me recently that she is gay. I tried to hide my disappointment and was really careful to let her know that I love her and accept her no matter what.
It wasn't near as upsetting as when she told me she's an athiest 2 years ago.

Then she asked me if she was going to go to hell for being gay.

I didn't know what to say because I don't want her to think that God is mad or frowning upon her or turned his back on her. I don't want to kill whatever bit of faith she may possibly have.

So I need help giving her an answer to her question, and I would appreciate it if you guys could post any and all bible verses you can think of about homosexuality.

I think there's only 1 in the NT that mentions homosexuality, but the KJV just says effeminate.

The OT it says that its an abomination for a man to lay with a man but it also says that eating shrimp is an abomination.

I just want to be sure. Is homosexuality really a sin?

Thanks.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:22 pm

I just wonder, what is an effeminate woman? Aren't women supposed to be feminine?

And I would like to know, how did they get the word homosexual from the word effeminate?

I'm not questioning the accuracy of the Bible at all but this one verse has a huge impact on a lot of people's lives.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Jericho on Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:45 pm

EC,

I just want to be sure. Is homosexuality really a sin?


In short, yes. Any sexual activity, rather it be homosexual or heterosexual, outside of God's covenant of marriage is a sin. We can define sin as anything that is contrary to the will of God. Homosexuality is a sin just like adultery and promiscuity are a sin.

So I need help giving her an answer to her question, and I would appreciate it if you guys could post any and all bible verses you can think of about homosexuality.


"For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (Rom 1:26-27)

There are more, but I'll let others chime in. I think it's import not to just focus on scriptures that talk about homosexuality, but to also focus on scriptures that confirm God's idea of marriage and sexuality. For instance, the very first command God gave to Adam and Eve was to be fruitful and multiply (Gen 1:22). The whole purpose of sex is for procreation. Then he tells them "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (Gen 2:24)". This is repeated by Jesus in Matthew 19:5.

So my daughter who is almost 16 told me recently that she is gay. I tried to hide my disappointment and was really careful to let her know that I love her and accept her no matter what. It wasn't near as upsetting as when she told me she's an athiest 2 years ago.


I'm curious, how does she know she's gay? Have you asked her? I find it curious that a 16 year old would come to the conclusion they are gay and an atheist without some outside influence.

Then she asked me if she was going to go to hell for being gay.


If she truly is an atheist, why is she worried about going to hell? The fact that she asks means she's unsure about being an atheist. And if she's unsure about being an atheist, wouldn't she also be unsure about being gay? In any case, there is only one unpardonable sin, that is not accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

I just wonder, what is an effeminate woman? Aren't women supposed to be feminine?


It's talking about men in that verse. That scripture can also go along with 1Co 11:14, "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?" The Biblical usage for effeminate (malakos) is:

I soft, soft to the touch
II metaph. in a bad sense
A effeminate
i of a catamite (a boy kept for homosexual practices)
ii of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
iii of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
iv of a male prostitute
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 3120&t=KJV

Your daughter might think, for whatever reason, she is gay. But thinking she's gay or having same sex attraction alone does not make someone gay no more than thinking about robbing a bank makes a person a bank robber. Following that analogy, only when a person robs a bank does it make them a bank robber. They may have thought about it prior, but only when they acted on it did they become a criminal. It's our actions that define us and make us who we are. Likewise, a person isn't gay until they act on those feelings. It's the action applied to those thoughts\feelings which makes it a sin or not. That is true for any sin.

At nearly 16 I really doubt she knows what she is. At that age kids are still trying to figure out who they are. I blame the culture\entertainment for confusing kids. I've heard that many who've had same sex attraction at that age grow out of it, unless they act on it. Even then there are plenty of ex-gays who have left that lifestyle.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Happydaddy on Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:23 am

Put me in the category of a parent needing advice on the subject. We have 2 daughters that have both intimated that they are leaning this way for their lives. And they have told us that in the near future they have something they want to tell us about their views on life. We are a family that spent all of their waking moments in a bible believing church and we are at a complete loss. I, like EC, don't want to condemn my daughters, but my wife and I have agreed so far that if it is a choice of condoning our daughters choices or serving the Lord, we will serve the Lord. We can love them and the Lord, but we have determined that we will let them know what the end game is in making that choice. We are at a loss and covet all the prayers we can get! Thanks. And EC, I will be praying fervently with you.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby mark s on Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:58 am

Hi EC,

While I believe homosexual activity to be damaging to the mind in ways that some other sins are not, I don't see it as being significantly different than other sins.

Yes, same sex activity is sin, just like eating shrimp is, under the Law. And Jesus did affirm the correct relationship between a man and woman.

I'm in the same camp as those who feel 16 is far too young to start polarizing in one direction. But even so, I find I don't even need to address the matter unless the other person brings it up. The fact is that our lives are riddled with sin.

So, while she may ask, Am I going to hell because I'm gay? In the strictest sense, no. People go to hell because they are sinners. And those sins can fill out many different catagories, and what of it? Stealing, lying, sex outside of marraige, all of it characterizes the life of the unbeliever. These and more.

Same sex activity can be like drug use, building in physical reward circuits in the brain, making it more difficult to stop once that lifestyle is begun. But drugs are that way, may other psychological issues are that way. Abuse causes that sort of thing also, and at the end of the day Jesus will deliver us from those also. Jesus saves from that too.

People may or may not recognize that certain things they do are wrong. But I think that people also know that, even if they feel justified in some ways, in other ways, they know they are wrong.

So I can focus on those ways in showing the gospel. I don't have to name a single sin someone commits, only tell them what Jesus did to save them. They already know they are guilty They don't need me to do that. And if they do, I don't have to pick the hottest button to push.

When someone asks me about Same Sex Attraction Disorder (SSAD), if they already know it's a problem, great, we can start there. But I like to start not with what they are doing wrong - again, I believe most people, at least the ones I speak with, know they are wrong already - but with what God says is right.

Show them the real relationship. Let them know that just like everything God does, the world, and the flesh, and the devil, are ready with cheap substitutes. We can have lifelong marraige - oh just play around. We can have safety and securing by trusting Jesus - Oh, just lie and steal like everyone else. We can delight ourselves in God, or, just bury our minds in hedonism. There's always a cheap substitute.

And I don't feel that I have to get someone to admit same sex attractions or behaviors are wrong. I only need introduce the Idea that Jesus made us, and therefore He knows what's good for us, and we can just trust Him with whatever, even that.

And I believe we can trust Him, even with things such as these, to say, Jesus, this is how I feel, and I know what you say, but this is how I feel, and I just want to be real with You. That's a wonderful place to begin in my way of thinking.

Much love!
Mark

Let them know that whatever it is that holds them, Jesus will free them. The only thing is, once He gets ahold of them, He won't stop with what they came for. He wants complete restoration.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:51 am

Jericho wrote:At nearly 16 I really doubt she knows what she is. At that age kids are still trying to figure out who they are. I blame the culture\entertainment for confusing kids. I've heard that many who've had same sex attraction at that age grow out of it, unless they act on it. Even then there are plenty of ex-gays who have left that lifestyle.


You're right It's trendy to be gay now, but it wasn't when I was a teen. I work in a high school and I see girls walking down the halls holding hands, and so many of them claim to be bi. It's sad to see how much things have changed. I think if I try to change her mind or convince her that it's wrong she'll just go even further in the wrong direction so I'm just ignoring it for now. Praying that God will step in and do something.

If she truly is an atheist, why is she worried about going to hell? The fact that she asks means she's unsure about being an atheist. And if she's unsure about being an atheist, wouldn't she also be unsure about being gay?


Yeah that's the good thing to come out of this, her starting to show concern for her relationship with God. When we had that talk about her being gay she said she would try to be more open minded about God. And that she would maybe make Him part of her life but not be "obsessed" with Him like I am. So I'm thankful for that.

Happydaddy wrote:Put me in the category of a parent needing advice on the subject. We have 2 daughters that have both intimated that they are leaning this way for their lives. And they have told us that in the near future they have something they want to tell us about their views on life. We are a family that spent all of their waking moments in a bible believing church and we are at a complete loss. I, like EC, don't want to condemn my daughters, but my wife and I have agreed so far that if it is a choice of condoning our daughters choices or serving the Lord, we will serve the Lord. We can love them and the Lord, but we have determined that we will let them know what the end game is in making that choice. We are at a loss and covet all the prayers we can get! Thanks. And EC, I will be praying fervently with you.


HappyDaddy Thank you for the prayers,

I'm not an expert on this subject but I decided that IF my daughter continues on this path, and actually "marries" a woman someday, I would choose to welcome that person into our family and home and love them as well. I want my daughter to remain in my life and stay close. Jesus said "Judge Not and Condemn Not" When our kids become adults, we need to stop condemning and start treating them like we would treat anyone else. Which means loving sinners, and having relationships with them. I don't think we have to make a choice between condoning their choices or serving the Lord. Serving the Lord is loving sinners. Jesus ate with sinners and loved on them.

mark s wrote:While I believe homosexual activity to be damaging to the mind in ways that some other sins are not, I don't see it as being significantly different than other sins.

I'm in the same camp as those who feel 16 is far too young to start polarizing in one direction. But even so, I find I don't even need to address the matter unless the other person brings it up. The fact is that our lives are riddled with sin.


Mark, thanks, I agree.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Keeping Alert on Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:58 pm

EC, Happydaddy,

There is a principle that I try to keep in mind when I deal with difficult situations and that is I do not want to win the battle and lose the war. Our war is against the evil one for the souls of our love ones. We win the war with love and with much prayer and tears and patience. God can make a way where there seems to be no way...

Put homosexual behavior in the same category as any other sins and we will realize that everyone needs Jesus and to become more godly or Christlike including ourselves. Perhaps, a humble alongside journeying with your daughters might be a good way to bridge the relationship. Regularly share your failings and how youb need help from God. Ask for their prayers.

Homosexuality is also a life that is full of disappointments and dissatisfaction which they would not want to reveal because every one is 'gay' right? But in such moments, they may be touched to reach out to God because you had shown them that in such times, God is always there for them.

Love,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby slick on Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:38 am

Hello,

HOMOSEXUALITY IS SIN.....that being said so is any OTHER SEXUAL activity outside of the bond of marriage between man/woman. so what makes this sin so difficult to address or comprehend? its that nasty 4 letter word LOVE...misused misunderstood & often mistaken for lust or any other deviance from GODS meaning.....

So the problem with this particular sin is it becomes personal...face it society barley bats and eye any longer when two same sex couples are very public with their affection, including most of us......but when it hits home and we are hit across the face with the cold reality, we fall apart we struggle we PANIC....

a couple of things some mentioned above......this is NOT A SIN THAT IS HOPELESS, but it is sin!!!! so first set boundaries of appropriate conduct IN YOUR HOME....no sleeping together...no sexual activity beyond that which is acceptable under any circumstance....holding hands a light kiss etc...WELCOME THE SINNER NOT THE SIN!

never attack!!!! or sabotage but be sure your feelings are known and understood.

PRAY WITHOUT CEASING!!! 1st for GOD to help you see your way..and then patience to endure, study GODS word specially JESUS and his dealings with sinners IE woman at the well, the woman brought before JESUS , learn to see sinners as JESUS saw them with compassion with love knowing what is best and longing for that to be true in their lives....

seek GODLY council...
in HIS GRACE,
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:08 am

I wonder if homosexuality begins with a flaw in identity. Psychology, we all have an identity, which is the way we view ourselves. And theway we believe that others view us. If the brain fails to make the proper connections in our early life, that could sabatoge our identity.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Nov 18, 2018 10:42 am

slick wrote: So the problem with this particular sin is it becomes personal...face it society barley bats and eye any longer when two same sex couples are very public with their affection, including most of us......but when it hits home and we are hit across the face with the cold reality, we fall apart we struggle we PANIC....


I found this comment thought-provoking, slick. It got me to thinking....

Christians seem to have two sins that top the list of the most horrible and serious so they often becomes the focus of our disapproval and "preaching." Those two sins are (to nobody's surprise I hope) are homosexuality and abortion.

As slick mentioned in his comment, we have become somewhat accustomed to seeing same-sex couples both in public and the media so it often fuels our sense of flagrant sin.

Also mentioned is this:

HOMOSEXUALITY IS SIN.....that being said so is any OTHER SEXUAL activity outside of the bond of marriage between man/woman.


That got me thinking as well. When was the last time you heard a sermon about lust, porn, adultery, pedophilia, sex trafficking, prostitution, incest, etc.? This list of "sexual activity outside the bond of marriage" is different than that of homosexuality because (imho) they are engaged in in a private/secret place with much planning done in advance to ensure it's secrecy.

But James apparently sees the evidence of planned sexual sin: 1) enticed; 2) conceived/birthed; 3) accomplished; 4) death.

But each one is tempted when he is carried away and (1) enticed by his own lust.  Then when lust has (2) conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is (3) accomplished, it (4) brings forth death.James 1:14-15 

This process implies intentional planning, choices, and indulging.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, is not so clear in it's origin or for it's progression for that matter. While there has been much study over the years as to it's source, the fact that some have told of their awareness as so early and young that it cannot be blamed on visual prevalence, influence of others, or the media. While this is not the place for debating the reason for this same gender attraction, it is obvious to me that it is fundamentally different from those sexual sins listed above in that it is not necessarily the result of an intentional choice.

That said, I would be less than honest if I didn't say that choice is a possibility for some. A close acquaintance told me the reason she opted for homosexuality is because she observed the way women were treated and made a conscious decision to not allow herself to be identified with the gender that was so vulnerable to mistreatment. So while she admitted to a conscious choice/decision, there are hundreds of thousands of women who are mistreated who do not choose that option....so was the inclination already there?

We may never have all the answers, but we are to love our neighbor as ourselves and doesn't mean we can know every single thing that takes place in their hearts.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Jericho on Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:30 pm

Abiding In His Word wrote:Christians seem to have two sins that top the list of the most horrible and serious so they often becomes the focus of our disapproval and "preaching." Those two sins are (to nobody's surprise I hope) are homosexuality and abortion.


Abiding, we've discussed this before, they are the focus because homosexuality and abortion have been heavily politicized by the Democratic party. Abortion is practically a religious sacrament to the Left. These things in particular have been used by activists to undermine traditional values and discriminate against Christians. Is it any wonder why Christians are so focused on them.

Abiding In His Word wrote:As slick mentioned in his comment, we have become somewhat accustomed to seeing same-sex couples both in public and the media so it often fuels our sense of flagrant sin.


I think "flagrant" is an apt description. When was the last time you seen an adultery "pride" parade or people championing for incest rights? Those sins are done in secret, but with homosexuality it's on full display. It reminds me of a passage in Jeremiah, "Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush (Jer 6:15)" There's also a passage in the Chumash that talks about the days of Noah, but is relevant today, "Such is the progression of sin. It begins in private, when people have a sense of right and wrong. But once people develop the habit of sinning, they gradually lose their shame, and immoral behavior becomes the accepted - even the required norm."

Abiding In His Word wrote: When was the last time you heard a sermon about lust, porn, adultery, pedophilia, sex trafficking, prostitution, incest, etc.?


That is part of the problem. Preachers, by and large, have stopped talking about sins. We've gotten so used to them them that we don't pay attention to them anymore. I'm all for hearing sermons about divorce, for example. It's the acceptance and accessibility to divorce that helped pave the way for same sex marriage. However, I don't think talking about homosexuality and abortion negates those sins. We know there wrong, it's the secular world that needs to know it.

Abiding In His Word wrote:Homosexuality, on the other hand, is not so clear in it's origin or for it's progression for that matter. While there has been much study over the years as to it's source, the fact that some have told of their awareness as so early and young that it cannot be blamed on visual prevalence, influence of others, or the media.


Some of it is learned behavior, some of is environmental factors. For instance, there's a link between child abuse and homosexuality. It's not true for everyone, but it is a factor. I wonder if some of it could be a chemical imbalance. I've also heard stories of people saying they felt different at a very young age (way before puberty). This to me is odd, because when I was that age I wasn't thinking about those things, and I suspect most people weren't either. That tells me there's something going on there, out of the usual, I just don't know what.

slick wrote:HOMOSEXUALITY IS SIN.....that being said so is any OTHER SEXUAL activity outside of the bond of marriage between man/woman.


Sin is sin in one regard, but there are also degrees to sin. Someone who shoplifts would not have the same accountability as someone who shoots up a school. There both wrong, but they are not on the same level. Is homosexuality more severe than heterosexual sin? I'm not sure, but it's worth noting that of the sexual sins, only homosexuality is called an abomination.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:04 pm

Jericho wrote:Is homosexuality more severe than heterosexual sin? I'm not sure, but it's worth noting that of the sexual sins, only homosexuality is called an abomination.


I wonder if that is the case because 1 Corinthians 6:8 says that Drunkards, Fornicators, and Homosexual will Not inherit the kingdom of God. It lumps them all in together.

1 Corinthians 6:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


Like I said before, it does say that eating shrimp is also an abomination in the OT.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


It sounds like ALL forms of sexual immorality can be disqualifying.
Last edited by extravagantchristian on Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:34 pm

Jericho wrote:
Abiding In His Word wrote:As slick mentioned in his comment, we have become somewhat accustomed to seeing same-sex couples both in public and the media so it often fuels our sense of flagrant sin.


I think "flagrant" is an apt description. When was the last time you seen an adultery "pride" parade or people championing for incest rights? Those sins are done in secret, but with homosexuality it's on full display.


We don't see an adultery "pride" parade or people championing for incest rights because those who practice those sexual sins are not discriminated against. We don't deny certain types of employment or housing, or refuse to bake cakes for those who are committing adultery. Homosexuals, on the other hand, are championing for their rights and freedom as individuals who are making a statement about their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as guaranteed by our Declaration of Independence. Homosexuality is not against the law so much of the discrimination they are experiencing is against the law.

That is part of the problem. Preachers, by and large, have stopped talking about sins. We've gotten so used to them them that we don't pay attention to them anymore. I'm all for hearing sermons about divorce, for example. It's the acceptance and accessibility to divorce that helped pave the way for same sex marriage. However, I don't think talking about homosexuality and abortion negates those sins. We know there wrong, it's the secular world that needs to know it.


If you lived in Key West, for example, or perhaps Las Vegas, a regular sermon series on the prevalence and acceptance of sexual sins would be in order perhaps. But we don't hear much about the sins of adultery, incest, pedophilia, and/or porn because much of those sins are prevalent among the clergy as well as the congregation.

Divorce, on the other hand, among Christians at least is sought for the reason of sexual sin or domestic violence on the part of one or the other in the marriage. Jesus Himself recognized the necessity of a divorce because of the hardness of hearts which resulted in mistreatment and/or abandonment of one party. Marriage requires commitment on the part of both parties and lacking that commitment dissolves the unity intended for marriage.

Some of it is learned behavior, some of is environmental factors. For instance, there's a link between child abuse and homosexuality. It's not true for everyone, but it is a factor. I wonder if some of it could be a chemical imbalance. I've also heard stories of people saying they felt different at a very young age (way before puberty). This to me is odd, because when I was that age I wasn't thinking about those things, and I suspect most people weren't either. That tells me there's something going on there, out of the usual, I just don't know what.


I agree that we just don't know what the origin of homosexuality is.

Sin is sin in one regard, but there are also degrees to sin. Someone who shoplifts would not have the same accountability as someone who shoots up a school. There both wrong, but they are not on the same level. Is homosexuality more severe than heterosexual sin? I'm not sure, but it's worth noting that of the sexual sins, only homosexuality is called an abomination.


I believe adultery is called an abomination in Ezekiel 22:11

Eze 22:11  "One has committed abomination with his neighbor's wife and another has lewdly defiled his daughter-in-law. And another in you has humbled his sister, his father's daughter. 

And though I have no scripture off hand, I'd be hard pressed if pedophilia was not an abomination in God's eyes. :(

ETA:

We know there wrong, it's the secular world that needs to know it.


The secular world does not abide by the same values as Christians and I'm not certain we should expect them to. We share the gospel and then it's a different story once a conversion takes place. It's important to note, however, that some sexual sins are illegal and could result in imprisonment; i.e. pedophilia, child porn, and sexual assault.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby slick on Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:33 am

Hello Gang,

this subject difficult to understand as it is, has very important ramifications. though often met with heated argument, The BIBLE ROMANS 1 makes it clear that homosexuality is a form of GODS judgement on a falling nation.

[Rom 1:24-28 NASB] 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

we see this Historically with SODOM, ROME, and other examples...

I believe this is in part why there is so much misunderstanding and confusion in regards to this particular sin....when we see the Biblical examples it is generally contained within a national boundary.. today, however it has become a WORLDWIDE issue.

As I have studied ROMANS many many times I have come to see chapter one as a BROAD SCALE decline of mankind through the ages with mans total rebellion toward GOD culminating near the end...

THE BATTLE AGES TIL THE LION ROARS!!
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:51 am

I believe this is in part why there is so much misunderstanding and confusion in regards to this particular sin....when we see the Biblical examples it is generally contained within a national boundary.. today, however it has become a WORLDWIDE issue.


I respectfully disagree that this particular sin was generally contained within a national boundary. As early as Genesis, Judges, Kings, Deut., Leviticus we find instances of sodomy and male and female prostitution practiced in the surrounding nations. That's why God warned the Israelites against the possibility of being influenced by them.

Yes, Romans 1 speaks to the sin of homosexuality, but to "....all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful" as well.

1 Cor. 6 again mentions this particular sin....along with these others...." Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."

And here's the hope and encouragement we have....

  Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor. 6:11

Paul was a murderer of thousands and yet he said he acted in ignorance. He was washed and sanctified following His conversion. He again refers to sexual immorality in general.

For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;  that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God...1Thess. 4:3-5 

I just want to make it crystal clear that I am not condoning nor minimizing the seriousness of any sin and in this case that of homosexuality. I do, however, understand that it seems to be one of our pet sins much the same as abortion and that no sin is unforgivable. I also recognize why these two sins receive our focus more than others because of public demonstrations. But to ignore or overlook the fact that these two sins, unlike some others, have the constitutional right in their favor where as other sexual sins practiced in private do not come to the forefront for obvious reasons.

Once an individual is saved/converted, the sins Paul lists as having been practiced, will be washed and those sinners will be sanctified. (1 Cor. 6:11) They will be, as we are, sinners saved by grace.

Feel free to disagree....
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:53 am

Hi EC:
My now 19 yr old made that same announcement to me at precisely the same age your daughter is announcing to you (just before 16). Her "identifying" as such lasted all of a few weeks, if. I determined that the reason was that pressures in high school are great, it's hard to make and keep friends due to all the caddy stuff that goes on, and EVERYONE protects the homosexuals....simple as that....they are all liked and hovered around and if anyone attempts to harm them in any way, the collective group swarms around them as though they are a calf without it's mother.

I didn't necessarily speak my above observations to her, but I did remind her of how boy crazy she had been over certain stars, or at the mall, etc, and asked a "fair question" as to what that was all about if she was "gay." ...??? I dont recall her sticking to that self ascribed identity more than a few weeks, if, and then, she was back to being boy crazy.
Just wanted to share this fwiw.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:16 am

Thanks GS, that's really encouraging. Its almostlike they want to be gay just to be rebelous and give us panic attacks. My daughter was shocked and a little disappointed I think when I didn't get upset at her announcement. I just told her I love her no matter what and gave her a big hug. She was like, what you're not gonna cry?
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:58 pm

Its true, EC! Not only shock us, but test our love for them, and test so many other things, like other's (friends) love for them. Plus, at this age of extreme high drama (and it's rampant in this generation now), this "identity" crisis they get causes everyone of their piers to stop and "talk about it".....the high drama saga....
My daughter wasn't even crushing on any girls....she just decided she was and we all went thru it.....and then, it was done, a few weeks passed, a few girl friends came over, and they were all back to tracking down boys....and that was, um, maybe 5 boyfriends back? Now, there is absolutely no question and other than that time back at 16, it hasn't ever come up again and I can earnestly say, I dont think it ever will....she is about as boy crazy as they all are at this age....all of them are just "so cute!"....blah, blah, blah.

I would say let it ride without a lot of anything too much for a bit and see where it goes. See if she "sorts it out" with her friends and decides, um, maybe not....(if you think this is the right fit and advice for your situation), but surely if this is more than attention seeking, you will be hearing more about it....because I can imagine the sincere crisis a revelation about oneself like this might bring if it's real.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Jericho on Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:31 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:We don't see an adultery "pride" parade or people championing for incest rights because those who practice those sexual sins are not discriminated against. We don't deny certain types of employment or housing, or refuse to bake cakes for those who are committing adultery. Homosexuals, on the other hand, are championing for their rights and freedom as individuals who are making a statement about their rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness as guaranteed by our Declaration of Independence. Homosexuality is not against the law so much of the discrimination they are experiencing is against the law.


Abiding, how are homosexuals discriminated against? Are they being thrown off buildings? They are a protected class, even above criticism. I've seen a lot of discrimination against those who oppose homosexuality, but not a lot of actual discrimination against homosexuals (in the Western world at least). In terms of discrimination, Christians are far more persecuted worldwide.

As far as rights, homosexuals have the same Constitutional rights as everyone else. What they want are special rights. Also, what they call rights are really just desires. Mary has a right to marry Susan is really Mary has a desire to marry Susan. This is a slippery slope, because eventually every desire will become a "right" until it leads to society's self-destruction.

extravagantchristian wrote:Thanks GS, that's really encouraging. Its almost like they want to be gay just to be rebellious and give us panic attacks. My daughter was shocked and a little disappointed I think when I didn't get upset at her announcement. I just told her I love her no matter what and gave her a big hug. She was like, what you're not gonna cry?


I think you might be on to something.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:36 am

Jericho wrote:Abiding, how are homosexuals discriminated against? Are they being thrown off buildings? They are a protected class, even above criticism. I've seen a lot of discrimination against those who oppose homosexuality, but not a lot of actual discrimination against homosexuals (in the Western world at least). In terms of discrimination, Christians are far more persecuted worldwide.

As far as rights, homosexuals have the same Constitutional rights as everyone else. What they want are special rights. Also, what they call rights are really just desires. Mary has a right to marry Susan is really Mary has a desire to marry Susan. This is a slippery slope, because eventually every desire will become a "right" until it leads to society's self-destruction.


Jericho, the topic of discrimination is huge but that it is alive and well in the world cannot be denied. It's experienced by women, blacks, gays, Jews, and those of a different ethnicity. It manifests itself in age preferences, disparity between men/women's earning, disabilities, workplace promotion and advancement opportunities, racial, gender, and ethnic discrimination, etc.

We pride ourselves in the phrase "all men are created equal," but many have found that some are more equal than others (Animal Farm , by George Orwell ). :wink:

What they want are special rights.


Until a problem of discrimination, harassment, or abuse of some type is exposed, it remains a "behind the scenes" problem. When large numbers of victims arrive at the "Enough" stage of experiences, some action is taken via public protests, campaigns, media, etc. and these bring attention to the areas that require "special rights" for resolution in those particular groups.

Martin Luther King became a civil rights advocate; the #MeToo movement exposed the prevalence of sexual abuse; the Stop Baptist Predators movement champions for victims in churches; discrimination in the military forced gays to resort to the "don't ask; don't tell" safety. These are just a few of the areas where "special rights" may be necessary because of the special circumstances encountered.

And yes, Christians are discriminated against, but most often imho they have brought it on themselves with hypocrisy, fraud, and authoritarian emphasis on hierarchy in the church, home, and even social interactions. Unlike those who are non-Christian, we should know better. It should not be so with us.

This article may be of interest regarding some of the issues and milestones faced by homosexuals over the years.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:38 am

Discrimination against gays is like discrimination against race.

We can't say that it doesn't exist because it does on some levels. It's all a matter of perception, how often do YOU see it. Might not be the same as someone else.

But clearly society has made huge progress in
accepting all types of people.

We shouldn't look down on anyone like their sin is worse than ours. Jesus said love everyone and judge not condemn not. It's just not our place. We're supposed to be soul winners but how canthey cometo Jesus when we push them away?

On the other hand it's sad that homosexuality is so much a part of our culture. I'm sure we all agree.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby keithareilly on Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:55 am

Sin lives within our flesh. It temps us.

The mistake is: identifying ourselves as the sin.

A murderer is a murderer because of his actions.
If a person has enough self control to keep from murdering someone, he is not a murderer.

If we heterosexuals have enough control to wait until we are married, we do not sin.

It is not our desires that are sin, but our behavior.

Tell your daughter Christ grants us the power to choose good over evil.
She can choose to be gay or she can choose to behave differently.
No different from a heterosexual who gives in to the sins of the flesh.



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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Ready1 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:25 pm

keithareilly wrote:It is not our desires that are sin, but our behavior.


You may have a difficult time reconciling that statement to the following scripture (Gal 5:16) and other scriptures as well...

(ASV) But I say, Walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

(BBE) But I say, Go on in the Spirit, and you will not come under the rule of the evil desires of the flesh.

(CEV) If you are guided by the Spirit, you won't obey your selfish desires.

(ESV) But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

(KJV) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.


I would say that evil desires of our flesh lead to evil actions.
Just observing.

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Re: Homosexuality

Postby keithareilly on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:31 pm

Ready1,

Sin lives within all of us. It temps all of us.
We are granted the power to not let sin reign in our flesh regardless of the temptations it presents to us.
We can be tempted but not sin.

If a we can resist the temptations of the flesh, then we can resist the temptations of the flesh regardless of which sex is the target of the temptation.

Temptations of the flesh are temptations of the flesh.

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Re: Homosexuality

Postby keithareilly on Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:17 am

Sin is corruption. That corruption takes many forms.
If a battle ship's defenses are corrupted by the enemy so that it target its allies instead of enemies, that corruption could be as simple as this.

IF ENEMY THEN TARGET is corrupted to IF NOT ENEMY THEN TARGET

Homosexuality can be viewed as a simply corruption of the flesh that changes the target of the sexual desires built within us. Sin takes many forms; we each have our own with which to deal. We all have things within us we are to overcome. This one is difficult because many heterosexuals who struggle with sexual desires avoid sin through marriage instead of resisting desires. Heterosexual marriage is a circumstance where having sex is not sin, homosexual marriage is still sinning. There is no circumstance for homosexual sex that is not sin.

Understand, homosexuals do not have the marriage option to stop sinning. So their burden is greater.
We could be less judgmental if we viewed homosexuals as having the same magnitude of sexual desires we deal with but also have a targeting issue of those desires as well.

The targeting issue is an issue of the mind. A renewed mind could resolve this but it might take a while and a lot of stressful circumstances for that renewal to be put in place.

I once met a man whose father sexually abused him for most of is childhood. He turned out to be a homosexual.
No surprise. I do not judge him for this.

Neither do I judge your daughter.
For sin wants what it wants regardless of what your daughter wants.
Remember she is fighting sin within her. See below.

Romans 7:14-20
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

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Re: Homosexuality

Postby mark s on Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:07 am

Personally I think the issue is how we respond to our desires. Do I struggle against what my flesh so overwhelmingly wants? Do I fight half-heartedly, expecting to yield in the end? Do I cradle those desires, something sweet to me?

I think our response to the desires of our flesh can make those desires sin, even if the act is not committed.

Jesus talked about adultery and murder in the heart. I think the same can apply here.

Much love!
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:20 pm

GodsStudent wrote: and EVERYONE protects the homosexuals....simple as that....they are all liked and hovered around and if anyone attempts to harm them in any way, the collective group swarms around them as though they are a calf without it's mother.


I've been thinking about this, and you are SO right. It's like if you announce that you're gay you're automatically protected and accepted. What teenager wouldn't want that?
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby GodsStudent on Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:08 am

extravagantchristian wrote:
GodsStudent wrote: and EVERYONE protects the homosexuals....simple as that....they are all liked and hovered around and if anyone attempts to harm them in any way, the collective group swarms around them as though they are a calf without it's mother.


I've been thinking about this, and you are SO right. It's like if you announce that you're gay you're automatically protected and accepted. What teenager wouldn't want that?


Exactly, EC. I can tell you that a lot of them do, because very non homosexual kids at my daughter's high school were "coming out" or at least expressing that they thought they might be gay. Then, for the ones who had come out, it was like a cult following for all of the kids to hover around them, in a very protective manner, to ensure no one said anything that would hurt their feelings, and if someone did, it was a verbal bloodbath on the one that did....and it was beyond saying something TO the one who came out....it was expressing an opposing view about the subject at all, whether directed at an individual or as in my case, in the privacy of my own home....expressing my sentiments about the subject.....I got verbally attacked by an entire group of girls at once.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:39 pm

GodsStudent wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:
GodsStudent wrote: and EVERYONE protects the homosexuals....simple as that....they are all liked and hovered around and if anyone attempts to harm them in any way, the collective group swarms around them as though they are a calf without it's mother.


I've been thinking about this, and you are SO right. It's like if you announce that you're gay you're automatically protected and accepted. What teenager wouldn't want that?


Exactly, EC. I can tell you that a lot of them do, because very non homosexual kids at my daughter's high school were "coming out" or at least expressing that they thought they might be gay. Then, for the ones who had come out, it was like a cult following for all of the kids to hover around them, in a very protective manner, to ensure no one said anything that would hurt their feelings, and if someone did, it was a verbal bloodbath on the one that did....and it was beyond saying something TO the one who came out....it was expressing an opposing view about the subject at all, whether directed at an individual or as in my case, in the privacy of my own home....expressing my sentiments about the subject.....I got verbally attacked by an entire group of girls at once.


Agreed GS and EC
And you can be sure that these things will continue to worsen as the "Day of Christ" approaches.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:19 pm

GodsStudent wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:
GodsStudent wrote: and EVERYONE protects the homosexuals....simple as that....they are all liked and hovered around and if anyone attempts to harm them in any way, the collective group swarms around them as though they are a calf without it's mother.


I've been thinking about this, and you are SO right. It's like if you announce that you're gay you're automatically protected and accepted. What teenager wouldn't want that?


Exactly, EC. I can tell you that a lot of them do, because very non homosexual kids at my daughter's high school were "coming out" or at least expressing that they thought they might be gay. Then, for the ones who had come out, it was like a cult following for all of the kids to hover around them, in a very protective manner, to ensure no one said anything that would hurt their feelings, and if someone did, it was a verbal bloodbath on the one that did....and it was beyond saying something TO the one who came out....it was expressing an opposing view about the subject at all, whether directed at an individual or as in my case, in the privacy of my own home....expressing my sentiments about the subject.....I got verbally attacked by an entire group of girls at once.


It's not that homosexuals shouldn't be protected or respected, the group as a whole does experience discrimination and even more so in times past. But it seems like LGTB's aren't just being coddled out of compassion but rather rebellion to traditional Christian values. People like the fact that this lifestyle is becoming more mainstream and that fuels this self righteous mindset.

I think we've got to be careful though, when condemning homosexuality. This particular sin is different than any other because it becomes their entire identity. If someone has same sex attraction, then they define themselves as "gay" and that's not something they can divorce themselves from, (if they truly are attracted to same sex) You can't change how you feel. So when we condemn homosexuality it's like we're condemning them as a whole person. We're pushing them away from God, and making them feel unworthy, unlovable, and unforgivable. It can kill their faith.
This is the one sin that (most) people cannot change, even if they want to.

Going through this with my daughter has made me more aware of the complexity. I used to be somewhat vocal in standing up against homosexuality, but now I think twice because I don't want to be misunderstood. I don't want to hurt anyone's faith, because chances are if they're gay, they already have a hard time believing that God would want anything to do with them. If someone asks me what the Bible says, I'll tell them, but I'll be more careful about how I explain it. I'd be clear that same sex attraction is not a sin, but acting upon it is.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:42 pm

extravagantchristian wrote: ........... I'd be clear that same sex attraction is not a sin, but acting upon it is.


:a3:
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Jericho on Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:45 pm

EC, let's try the substitution test on your paragraph:

I think we've got to be careful though, when condemning alcoholism. This particular sin is different than any other because it becomes their entire identity. If someone has alcoholism, then they define themselves as "alcoholic" and that's not something they can divorce themselves from, (if they truly are attracted to alcohol) You can't change how you feel. So when we condemn alcoholism it's like we're condemning them as a whole person. We're pushing them away from God, and making them feel unworthy, unlovable, and unforgivable. It can kill their faith.
This is the one sin that (most) people cannot change, even if they want to.


I used alcoholism as an example, but you could substitute any sin. Would what you said make any sense in regards to alcoholism? So why should homosexuality be treated differently from any other sin? Any sin can become someone's identity. But if someone has a problem with alcohol their behavior would not be tolerated, even if we loved them. In fact, we would try to get them to stop their destructive lifestyle specifically because we loved them. Sexuality is also a behavior, one that can be changed. There are gays who have come out of that lifestyle, and non-gays who have gotten into that lifestyle.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:18 pm

Jericho wrote:EC, let's try the substitution test on your paragraph:

I think we've got to be careful though, when condemning alcoholism. This particular sin is different than any other because it becomes their entire identity. If someone has alcoholism, then they define themselves as "alcoholic" and that's not something they can divorce themselves from, (if they truly are attracted to alcohol) You can't change how you feel. So when we condemn alcoholism it's like we're condemning them as a whole person. We're pushing them away from God, and making them feel unworthy, unlovable, and unforgivable. It can kill their faith.
This is the one sin that (most) people cannot change, even if they want to.


I used alcoholism as an example, but you could substitute any sin. Would what you said make any sense in regards to alcoholism? So why should homosexuality be treated differently from any other sin? Any sin can become someone's identity. But if someone has a problem with alcohol their behavior would not be tolerated, even if we loved them. In fact, we would try to get them to stop their destructive lifestyle specifically because we loved them. Sexuality is also a behavior, one that can be changed. There are gays who have come out of that lifestyle, and non-gays who have gotten into that lifestyle.


What defines someone as gay? Same sex attraction or the act of it?

That's where the misunderstanding lies. A young person may have same sex attraction, and therefore label themselves as gay, even though they haven't acted upon it yet.

I would say be careful in condemning that person because they haven't done anything wrong, and chances are, they can't change how they feel and be attracted to opposite sex.

It's hard for believers who have been Christians most of their life to see things from the perspective of the lost. We don't remember what it's like to be faithless and without hope. If they perceive, (or if we give the impression) that God doesn't want them (because they feel a certain way), they could turn away from Him forever. We have to believe that He's not disgusted with us in order to come near Him.

Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned."
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:07 pm

Or just any gay person in general who might think that since they can't change who they're attracted to, they'll never be acceptable to God.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby mark s on Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:16 pm

just one man's view . . .

I think that "same sex attraction" is a disorder (SSAD), and is part of "the deceptive lusts of the flesh". I think it's a lie.

Same sex attraction is based on the falsehood that we are other than what God made us to be. God made us tall, short, sickly, in rich circumstances, all of that, any of that, none of that, but I do not believe God made us to be perpertually in either a lifestyle of sin, or in some sort of psychological bondage to the repression of that lifestyle.

A man asked his audience at a conference I was at many years ago, "What makes a man?" He tossed out some answers, our circumstances, our DNA, our nurturing and abuses, but then he gave the Biblical answer: "For we are His workmanship. . ."

I don't believe God makes same-sex oriented people. The world does that. The flesh does that. It's all a lie.

Well, actually, that's not all true. In Romans, God explains that some people He gives over to this particular sin as a personal judgment. But it's a judgment brought forth by their rejection of God. His wrath upon them. But He didn't make them that way. He made all of us the same, to become His children, to know Him forever. Not to be nulified by some built in defect.

And even if there is a defect . . . I may have a genetic propensity to alcoholism, so what? Whether I do or I don't, when I do, it's no good, so I don't. That's all I need to know.

Anyway . . . one man's view.

Much love!
Mark

PS . . . I would like to add, I believe feelings follow thoughts, beliefs, values, and choices. There are reasons why people feel the way the do. They believe certain things about themselves, and so those things are in them true. But they are not true. They've been lied to.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:39 pm

mark s wrote:just one man's view . . .

I think that "same sex attraction" is a disorder (SSAD), and is part of "the deceptive lusts of the flesh". I think it's a lie.

Same sex attraction is based on the falsehood that we are other than what God made us to be. God made us tall, short, sickly, in rich circumstances, all of that, any of that, none of that, but I do not believe God made us to be perpertually in either a lifestyle of sin, or in some sort of psychological bondage to the repression of that lifestyle.

A man asked his audience at a conference I was at many years ago, "What makes a man?" He tossed out some answers, our circumstances, our DNA, our nurturing and abuses, but then he gave the Biblical answer: "For we are His workmanship. . ."

I don't believe God makes same-sex oriented people. The world does that. The flesh does that. It's all a lie.

Well, actually, that's not all true. In Romans, God explains that some people He gives over to this particular sin as a personal judgment. But it's a judgment brought forth by their rejection of God. His wrath upon them. But He didn't make them that way. He made all of us the same, to become His children, to know Him forever. Not to be nulified by some built in defect.

And even if there is a defect . . . I may have a genetic propensity to alcoholism, so what? Whether I do or I don't, when I do, it's no good, so I don't. That's all I need to know.

Anyway . . . one man's view.

Much love!
Mark

PS . . . I would like to add, I believe feelings follow thoughts, beliefs, values, and choices. There are reasons why people feel the way the do. They believe certain things about themselves, and so those things are in them true. But they are not true. They've been lied to.


Does God make people with cleft palates or downs syndrome? If so then yes, He could make some people with the tendency to be gay.

In Romans, God explains that some people He gives over to this particular sin as a personal judgment. But it's a judgment brought forth by their rejection of God. His wrath upon them. But He didn't make them that way. He made all of us the same, to become His children, to know Him forever. Not to be nulified by some built in defect.


I don't think that being gay is always a personal judgment brought forth by their rejection of God, I think this could have a broader meaning,
Maybe God gradually gives a society over to homosexuality (being mainstream) over a period of time, when that society grows more and more ungodly. The children, grandchildren reaping the sins of the elder generation.
Matthew 1:22
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:16 pm

mark s wrote:I don't believe God makes same-sex oriented people. The world does that. The flesh does that. It's all a lie.

Not absolutely true...God does continue to make people with both sexual parts not so easy to explain.

God does make some men have differences that make them less masculine and more feminine...and some women less feminine than what is most common.

But what is said here is very true....
mark s wrote: He made all of us the same, to become His children, to know Him forever. Not to be nullified by some built in defect.

"Built in DEFECT" that is the key....we ALL have them....but we MUST Not ACT on them.....It IS SIN.

extravagantchristian wrote:Does God make people with cleft palates or downs syndrome? If so then yes, He could make some people with the tendency to be gay.

As I said above...probably yes, that is possible.

Remember though...All things are possible with God....There is a freedom attainable from All Defects :banana: Christ :banana:
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Jericho on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:11 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:I would say be careful in condemning that person because they haven't done anything wrong, and chances are, they can't change how they feel and be attracted to opposite sex.


I didn't say we should condemn them. I understand some people legitimately struggle with those things, and they should be helped. But I do think sometimes we have gotten too accustomed and accepting of it. There's always the danger of ending up like Lot. God considered him righteous, yet he was willing to let his daughter be raped. Living in Sodom affected him in ways he probably didn't realize, and that of his family also. It's easy to compromise your values and principles when you live in an increasingly Godless society.

I've also questioned if it's possible to love someone to hell. By that I mean in trying to show love and compassion to the point that we become so accepting of their sins that they never hear the truth or understand the penalty of their sins.

extravagantchristian wrote:Does God make people with cleft palates or downs syndrome? If so then yes, He could make some people with the tendency to be gay.


No. Cleft palates and downs syndrome are the product of living in a fallen world, as is the sin nature (and the sexual sins that result from it).

shorttribber wrote:Not absolutely true...God does continue to make people with both sexual parts not so easy to explain.

God does make some men have differences that make them less masculine and more feminine...and some women less feminine than what is most common.


I disagree, see my comment above. God doesn't control every single aspect of his design. He has put things in order\motion so that plants, animals, and humans will produce after their kind. It's a self perpetuating system that doesn't need divine intervention. Unfortunately, disorder (entropy) was likely introduced at the fall. That's why we get things like birth defects.

As far as people being more or less masculine\feminine, there are often environmental factors at play. I also wouldn't rule out chemical imbalances and even foods. For example, soy produces plant estrogen. It's not completely the same as human estrogen, but close enough to fool the body. So men who eat a lot of soy have reduced testosterone and even develop gynecomastia, making them more feminine.
Last edited by Jericho on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:25 pm

Jericho wrote:God doesn't control every single aspect of his design.


Then He can't condemn that which allows to occur at random. I do not agree with you on this.
I know we live in a fallen world and the genetic pool has been continually more and more contaminated century after century.

God still is in Ultimate control though...it is Him and Him alone that allows or disallows anything, and any part of His creation.

:dunno: maybe I'm wrong...and maybe I'm not :dunno:
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Jericho on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:31 pm

Then He can't condemn that which allows to occur at random.


Could you give an example? I'm going to bed now, I'll respond later.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:45 pm

Jericho wrote:
Then He can't condemn that which allows to occur at random.


Could you give an example? I'm going to bed now, I'll respond later.


Let me think on that answer some also.....gotta go to bed too

good night brother :hugs:
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:50 am

Jericho wrote:
Then He can't condemn that which allows to occur at random.


Could you give an example? I'm going to bed now, I'll respond later.


Ps 139
13For You formed my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Marvelous are Your works, and I know this very well. 15My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.…


We are not "Made" by the random meeting of two individuals that eventually join their genes and "create" a child.

God is fully STILL the "Creator". We are all Imperfect Physically and Spiritually......But God has been and still is Ultimately in control of that.

My quote above was missing a word also...sorry about that...

I meant to say...
"Then He can't condemn that which HE allows to occur at random"
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Homosexuality

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:09 am

Jericho wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:I would say be careful in condemning that person because they haven't done anything wrong, and chances are, they can't change how they feel and be attracted to opposite sex.


I didn't say we should condemn them. I understand some people legitimately struggle with those things, and they should be helped. But I do think sometimes we have gotten too accustomed and accepting of it. There's always the danger of ending up like Lot. God considered him righteous, yet he was willing to let his daughter be raped. Living in Sodom affected him in ways he probably didn't realize, and that of his family also. It's easy to compromise your values and principles when you live in an increasingly Godless society.

I've also questioned if it's possible to love someone to hell. By that I mean in trying to show love and compassion to the point that we become so accepting of their sins that they never hear the truth or understand the penalty of their sins.


I think it should be a delicate balance of letting people know what you believe (what the bible says) in a way that doesn't make them feel unwelcome in your life. It's about their perception of us. It's important that outsiders feel loved by us. Like we still want to be around them, even though they choose to sin.

Jesus for example, hung out with sinners. He loved them, he showed them grace.
He preached at the "righteous" religious people because they didn't see their own sin. The plank in their OWN eye.

If someone asks me how I feel about homosexuality I would explain it to them, but I'm not going to go around declaring that "homosexuality is a sin" without clarifying that same sex attraction is not a sin.

Think about what it would feel like to be an unbeliever who isn't attracted to the opposite sex. Do you see how we could make them feel unloved by God by just declaring that "homosexuality is a sin" If they are unable to change who they are attracted to?

It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance.
We love Him because He FIRST loved us.
Taste and see that the Lord is good.

Salvation is a process.
An unbeliever isn't going to just say "OK I'm going to stay single for the rest of my life" without first having some kind of relationship with God. It would take time for them learning to trust and fear God before they're ready to make that kind of commitment.
"twas GRACE that taught my heart to fear"
God invites ALL sinners to call upon Him, to taste and see that He is good.
That's what leads us to repentance.

They need to believe that God will "hang out with them" just how they are. Just like Jesus did. In order to grow their faith. But they're not going to approach Him if they feel shunned by Him to begin with.

We cannot change society. We HAVE TO accept that LGBTQ lifestyle is here to stay because God has allowed it, and we have to love these people, and care about their souls, careful not to give the impression that we are against them or better than them because we sin differently.

And really, is it our concern what others do in their own bedroom? If so then do we Christians preach against Fornication and Adultery as much as we preach against homosexuality? Think about it. If a Christian man has an affair, we seek to sooth his conscience by saying things like "David had an affair too but God forgave him" Shouldn't we much more care about the conscience of the lost who are on their way to hell?


God has allowed society to deteriorate and it's only going to get worse. People are more confused now than ever, all we can do is share the good news of God's Love, and model a good life and show them that it is possible to be pleasing to God, they see our reward when they see the peace that we have.
Matthew 1:22
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:08 am

I hear the passionate plea for Christians to be loving, kind with how they tell the truth about what scripture says, and love the sinner, hate the sin....all of that.....which is what Christians are called to do in all cases of waywardness thru sin.....and all sin is forgivable when covered by the blood...
I love the message and need it for myself as a sinner just as much as I need to share it with the next girl or guy who loves or lives in their sin (in bondage).

Here's the thing.....

We have a young lady in our family who came out two years ago. Her parents are Jehovah Witness (this part of my husband's family holds on to their JW stuff and shuns the rest of the family for it, but this girl's mother married into the JW part of our family and wasn't raised as a JW....however, she has been reading scripture with them now and studying with them)....
So, I asked my family if I could talk to her about her just coming out. I VERY CAREFULLY chose every single word I said to her, mixing the words of scripture, and exactly what it says with constant affirmations and love.....I REFUSE to be scolded about what or how I said anything, because I know exactly what I said and how positive and loving and reassuring and reaffirming I was with her....insisting every other word that nomatter how she moved forward, the love of my family would be unwavering and constant....

Here's the thing. She acted as though she was listening with great interest and so forth, but as soon as we finished talking, she got her mama and my husband's cousin and told them I spoke hate to her (the only thing that could have been misconstrued as hate was the actual wording of scripture and our looking at what the concordances say.....which left little to no mystery). So, they left prematurely and after that, contact was even more sketchy until there was none.....I had been judged as being harsh by the entire family when I KNOW how not harsh I was and how well I did in that conversation....even praying beforehand for the peace and guidance of the Lord.

So.....we can do what we can do.....it's true.....and if our message is thrown back at us, we have scriptures concerning that......we also have scriptures concerning who and what we should be worshipping with......and if we ignore those in favor of being PC, then we will reap what we sow.....its just like that, per God....that's why He guides us so in scripture, and we see the error of not taking His guidance all the time.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:35 am

extravagantchristian wrote:Does God make people with cleft palates or downs syndrome? If so then yes, He could make some people with the tendency to be gay.

In Romans, God explains that some people He gives over to this particular sin as a personal judgment. But it's a judgment brought forth by their rejection of God. His wrath upon them. But He didn't make them that way. He made all of us the same, to become His children, to know Him forever. Not to be nulified by some built in defect.


I don't think that being gay is always a personal judgment brought forth by their rejection of God, I think this could have a broader meaning,
Maybe God gradually gives a society over to homosexuality (being mainstream) over a period of time, when that society grows more and more ungodly. The children, grandchildren reaping the sins of the elder generation.


Hi EC,

I think being born with Downs or a cleft palette is a different sort of matter. I think this would be more like being born with the propensity to steal, or to lie. But then, we all are in fact born with the propensity to sin. We're sinners. As you've been pointing out, sin is sin, no matter what flavor. Although God tells us that sexual sins are different, in that we sin against our own bodies. And that can make these kind of sins seem particulary overwhelming.

So I'd say that people are born with sex attractions, and are born with greed and avarice, and are born with fear and worry, and so on. Which will be more strong in my flesh? Will I be a murderer, or a thief? Will I do none of those, but spend my days wishing I had what my neighbors have? All are the products of being people who are dead, and in death, are in transgression.

I'd say that all temptations are common to man. We all go through the same sorts of testings and tempations. But we must not say that God tempts us to sin, He doesn't do that. We do that when we go after whatever it is we want, outside of the Lord.

This is always the question, born that way, or not? Nature or nurture? This is why I don't think it matters.

None of us can on our own stop being sinners, whatever kind we are.

All of us can, in Jesus' power, be born again, a new creation, born from God, without sin.

Can we even know whether we are born a certain way or not? I may completely believe I've been "gay" (actually meaning happy) - have had "Same Sex Attraction Disorder" from my earliest childhood. Born that way. Like I'd even know! Do I remember, do I understand, all that happened in my life? Choices that I made, impulses I've yielded to out of basic sinfulness, that built into a life while I wasn't even looking?

"But I hate the way I am!" Doesn't this negate the notion of choosing this lifestyle? I'd have to say no, it does not. It's well known that people make conflicting choices, that people act contrary to their values, and that choices and actions accumulate into a lifestyle.

Give in once, give in again, hate the aftermath, but enjoy the sin. Doesn't that describe the general life of sin, again, whatever flavor? People choose what they hate, because even though it doesn't "work for them" in overall life, it works for them right now.

A person can simply be seeking affirmation and acceptance, and happen to find it in that direction, and then continue on that path. Even though they believe it is wrong. Even though they are distressed by their own lives. Yet the emotional needs return, and the mind, the brain, it knows, go there . . . that's where you can find . . . what ever it is you are seeking.

The old way.

But in the new way, we are new in Jesus. And none of the old remains. Anything that propelled us into the works of the flesh, whatever they are, no longer have the slightest bit of power over us. And if we can come to believe that is true, we can take up that power and rule over our bodies in the strength of the Holy Spirit.

It's not a matter of repairing our lives. It's a matter of forsaking those lives completely, with all of their dreams and wants and needs and desires and frustrations and failures and sins and everything. Anything that seems a part of us that does not match with the Bible's description of who we are, and what God has done for us, is not part of the new us.

And anything that is a part of the old us can simply be walked away from, again, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

When we come to believe that is so, then we will do it, and find that it is true.

Much love!
Mark
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:49 am

Romans 1:24-28

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


To me, this reads like a very person matter between God and individual people. "Their own hearts", "their own bodies", "between themselves", so on, it all seems to me to be speaking of individuals.

The topic is introduced in "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven . . ." This follows in counterpoint to, "the righteousness of God is reveal from faith to faith". I don't think this is the faith of nations or societies, but the faith of people as God saves us with His implanted Word, and enobles us by rebirth as His Own children, as we receive Him.

By the same token, I see this judgment as against individuals who reject Him, and are debased being given over to this particular sin. And this sin, unimpeded by God, will quickly overwhelm those who are so given over.

Homosexuality is called an abomination in the Bible. Consider what that actually means. Moses told Pharaoh they could not sacrifice in the land, since they would be offering "the abomination of Egypt". They were going to sacrifice cows. Cows were worshipped as gods in Egypt. And there are other places too, where false gods - idols - were called abominations (gagging smell, literally, if memory serves). Same sex relations are, I believe, idolatrous.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Jericho on Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:54 am

shorttribber wrote:Ps 139
13For You formed my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Marvelous are Your works, and I know this very well. 15My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.…


We are not "Made" by the random meeting of two individuals that eventually join their genes and "create" a child.

God is fully STILL the "Creator". We are all Imperfect Physically and Spiritually......But God has been and still is Ultimately in control of that.

My quote above was missing a word also...sorry about that...

I meant to say...
"Then He can't condemn that which HE allows to occur at random"


Thanks for your reply ST. I don't disagree with what you said. I guess the question is how much is God in control? Does he control every minute detail? Yes he has the potential to control everything, and yet he doesn't. There are things that happen every day that are not His will. It's not God's will that anyone should perish, and yet there are people who will perish. So if it's not God's will at work then whose will is it? I know that's getting into a whole other discussion.

extravagantchristian wrote:I think it should be a delicate balance of letting people know what you believe (what the bible says) in a way that doesn't make them feel unwelcome in your life. It's about their perception of us. It's important that outsiders feel loved by us. Like we still want to be around them, even though they choose to sin.


Hi EC, I don't disagree with that.

extravagantchristian wrote:If someone asks me how I feel about homosexuality I would explain it to them, but I'm not going to go around declaring that "homosexuality is a sin" without clarifying that same sex attraction is not a sin.


I've actually said the same thing, that it's not the feeling but the act that is the sin. However, someone did make the good point that Jesus said "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." So this is something I'm going to have to ponder.

extravagantchristian wrote:We cannot change society. We HAVE TO accept that LGBTQ lifestyle is here to stay because God has allowed it, and we have to love these people, and care about their souls, careful not to give the impression that we are against them or better than them because we sin differently.


This is where I disagree. It's not a matter of what God has allowed, it is what we have allowed. It's the West turning away from God that has allowed retro paganism to return. If we accept things things as they are then nothing will change, and it will only get worse. The early Christians were born into a very pagan world, but they didn't accept it. They preached the truth no matter the consequences and their actions changed the world. We can tell the truth without animosity. Jesus defended the woman at the well who committed adultery, but he also ended it by saying "go and sin no more."

extravagantchristian wrote:And really, is it our concern what others do in their own bedroom?


I never wanted to know what they do in their own bedroom, but many do seem to want to advertise it. They are the ones who are out and proud. We wouldn't be talking about it if they first did not make an issue of it.

extravagantchristian wrote: If so then do we Christians preach against Fornication and Adultery as much as we preach against homosexuality? Think about it. If a Christian man has an affair, we seek to sooth his conscience by saying things like "David had an affair too but God forgave him" Shouldn't we much more care about the conscience of the lost who are on their way to hell?


I have no problem with preaching forgiveness and repentance if they are receptive to it. But you can't do that with everyone. There are those who have been given over to a reprobate mind. They are hostile to God and to us. For them I'm far less concerned about their conscience, or lack thereof.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:59 am

shorttribber wrote:
mark s wrote:I don't believe God makes same-sex oriented people. The world does that. The flesh does that. It's all a lie.

Not absolutely true...God does continue to make people with both sexual parts not so easy to explain.

God does make some men have differences that make them less masculine and more feminine...and some women less feminine than what is most common.


Hi ST,

One of my best friends from high school was a girl who was actually hermaphroditic. She ended up drinking herself to death in her 30's. Life was not easy for her. She was a Christian, a true believer, born again. And we were very open with each other. I think I'm the only person she ever told outside of her family and doctors and such.

But even being born with a mixture of body parts did not make her gay. She recognized the issues that came with being who she was. But she was not homosexual. And in fact, as the only real answer to her condition, she opted to be asexual, which is a very valid, real, choice that can be made.

People talk about feelings - desires - as if they are all powerful, that we are held in their sway. It's simply not true, not as far as I'm concerned.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby Jericho on Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:11 am

GodsStudent wrote:Here's the thing. She acted as though she was listening with great interest and so forth, but as soon as we finished talking, she got her mama and my husband's cousin and told them I spoke hate to her (the only thing that could have been misconstrued as hate was the actual wording of scripture and our looking at what the concordances say.....which left little to no mystery). So, they left prematurely and after that, contact was even more sketchy until there was none.....I had been judged as being harsh by the entire family when I KNOW how not harsh I was and how well I did in that conversation....even praying beforehand for the peace and guidance of the Lord.


This is very much the Left's narrative of anyone who is against homosexuality. Hate speech to them is anything they disagree with or that offends their sensibilities. Just telling the truth is deemed as hateful.
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Re: Homosexuality

Postby mark s on Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:33 am

Jericho wrote:As far as people being more or less masculine\feminine, there are often environmental factors at play. I also wouldn't rule out chemical imbalances and even foods. For example, soy produces plant estrogen. It's not completely the same as human estrogen, but close enough to fool the body. So men who eat a lot of soy have reduced testosterone and even develop gynecomastia, making them more feminine.


Hi Jericho,

I think this is a key point to keep in mind. There are a lot of different causes and reasons for people being certain ways.

And If I can just say I'm born that way, then it let's me off the hook of responsibility, after all, I can't change what I am, can I?

Boys and girls being raised without fathers and mothers, or with fathers and mothers who show the wrong example, or abuse them, or hormone imbalances, or the wrong foods, or just believing the messages that have been dumped into our brains from childhood by Hollywood.

I still believe that same sex attractions fall under the heading "The Deceptive Lusts of the Flesh". I believe it's a lie.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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