POPE ACCUSED OF COVERING UP CHILD ABUSE

[Jericho]

Hello Mark, thanks for your input.

When I consider that the Bible says we won't remember any of this in the New Heavens and Earth, I don't see any real lessons gained in eternity. I know we garner for ourselves treasures in heaven when we give to the poor. My wife will be richer in heaven than I will be, at least how things are looking now.

I don't believe it says we won't remember any of it. This life is significant enough that it determines our eternal destination. I do believe there are certain lessons that can only learned from living in a fallen world, and the angels are learning from it also. As Peter says, " Even angels long to look into these things". 1Pe 1:12. Think about this, if Adam never sinned we would not have seen the sacrifice Jesus took to redeem us. In doing so, we have learned a new dimension to God's love that we would have never known before. That's not to say that God planned for Adam to fall and for us to live in a fallen world, but that He is using it for His glory. There are also qualities that we develop here that we could not develop in heaven such as compassion, perseverance, faith, courage, etc. There is no need for faith in heaven, faith is only for us here on earth. All these things I do believe help to prepare us for future roles, as we will be ruling and reigning with Christ.

I think - my speculation - that God created the heavens and earth, and created the angels, who watched God continue His works of creation. I think that one of the cherubs, the one that covers, perhaps a fifth living creature, thought that creation was for them. Perhaps many of the angels thought that.

I'm sure your familiar with Gap Theory. It presupposes that Satan once had a kingdom on earth and when he fell judgement came upon the earth and it was destroyed. Genesis then would be seen as a re-creation. Mankind was created to replace Satan's role and take dominion of the earth. If it is true, it could explain Satan's animosity toward mankind. We literally took his job, and he wants it back. And yes, there may be something to being jealous and envious. We were created a little lower than angels, but we will be elevated to a higher position and be like Christ. Possibly higher than angels, as we will also judge them.

[mark s]

Hello Mark, thanks for your input.

When I consider that the Bible says we won't remember any of this in the New Heavens and Earth, I don't see any real lessons gained in eternity. I know we garner for ourselves treasures in heaven when we give to the poor. My wife will be richer in heaven than I will be, at least how things are looking now.

I don't believe it says we won't remember any of it.

Hi Jericho,

It does seem like a strange thing, doesn't it?

Isaiah 65:17-18 (NASB)

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.
“But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create;
For behold, I create Jerusalem for rejoicing
And her people for gladness.

God's people, created for gladness. Begin now. Paul said it. Forgetting those things that are behind, pressing into that which is ahead, laying hold on that upward call of Christ, something like that.

Maybe it's our desire to somehow reconcile the past. How can it have meaning if it is simply to be forgotten? But then, I don't ask my mechanic about the particular details, that bolt was especially tight, and here is where I bruised my shin when the creeper slipped . . . he just calls and says, your car is ready, and I pay, and drive.

I think we prove ourselves in our lives, in a manner of speaking. In a life like this, this is what I do. Like Job. Like the parable of the sower. Like in Peter's letter, the testing of our faith proves it genuine. And both testing and our obedience to His work through us show who we are, and where rightness places us in our Father's kingdom, according to who we are, what we've chosen.

This life is significant enough that it determines our eternal destination. I do believe there are certain lessons that can only learned from living in a fallen world, and the angels are learning from it also. As Peter says, " Even angels long to look into these things". 1Pe 1:12. Think about this, if Adam never sinned we would not have seen the sacrifice Jesus took to redeem us. In doing so, we have learned a new dimension to God's love that we would have never known before. That's not to say that God planned for Adam to fall and for us to live in a fallen world, but that He is using it for His glory. There are also qualities that we develop here that we could not develop in heaven such as compassion, perseverance, faith, courage, etc. There is no need for faith in heaven, faith is only for us here on earth. All these things I do believe help to prepare us for future roles, as we will be ruling and reigning with Christ.

Peter says that angels long to look into these things, but we shouldn't, in my opinion, equate that with the idea that the angels are both improved in so doing, and that they cannot be so improved in any other way.

When I sketch the broadest outline of human history start to finish, it would be to say, God wanted a family and so He made one. But His family went rogue. He had to take drastic measures to rescue His family, and only some of them actually wanted it. But at the end, God will have His family just as He made them to be, innocent, perfect, righteous, no stain of sin whatsoever, not even in our memories.

These lives are so interwoven with sin, how would they make any sense without the underlying knowledge of our guilt and shame. Yes, it is a wonderful thing to know and understand God's love for us through His giving His Own wonderful life. But I happen to think it will be a more wonderful thing to share a universe with God, a universe that has never known sin.

I think - my speculation - that God created the heavens and earth, and created the angels, who watched God continue His works of creation. I think that one of the cherubs, the one that covers, perhaps a fifth living creature, thought that creation was for them. Perhaps many of the angels thought that.

I'm sure your familiar with Gap Theory. It presupposes that Satan once had a kingdom on earth and when he fell judgement came upon the earth and it was destroyed. Genesis then would be seen as a re-creation. Mankind was created to replace Satan's role and take dominion of the earth. If it is true, it could explain Satan's animosity toward mankind. We literally took his job, and he wants it back. And yes, there may be something to being jealous and envious. We were created a little lower than angels, but we will be elevated to a higher position and be like Christ. Possibly higher than angels, as we will also judge them.

I am familiar with the theory. I don't think it's correct. I follow a 6 regular days of creation, like our Sunday to Friday, and on Saturday God rested, like that.

Hebrews 2:14-17 (NASB)

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

I think this passage paints a good portrait of the difference to God between men and angels. God died for men, but not for angels. He was incarnated man, not angel. He does not give help to angels, but He does to man. He came to die for man. He makes propitiation for man not angels. Men are redeemed, not angels.

I guess I could feel second-rate, if I weren't committed to God's supremacy, and to simply serve Him in what He deems best.

I've heard it well put that it can be harder to serve cheerfully when treated like a servant. But I don't know if that applies to angels.

Much love!
mark

[ToledoDebbie]

I concur with several others that this is a very thought provoking thread. I posted about some of my experiences with the Catholic Church earlier, but, I wanted to add a few thoughts. I believe that many of the men who have gone into the priesthood are drawn to that position by the "Power", "Money" and secretive nature of the entire culture that exists throughout the Catholic Church. I know that there are many Catholics that believe in Christ and are saved. However, after working with hundreds of individuals, over many years, in the Catholic Diocese, I am not at all convinced these priests and leaders have a true belief in Christ or salvation. I have worked with many varied groups throughout my career and I can tell you, I never had the overwhelming feeling of being in the presence of TRUE evil, until I started working within the Diocese. My point is this; the Catholic Priests that are accused of these horrible abuses are not just a few bad apples that need to be punished. The entire church and it's institutions, condone, permit and cover up for horrible behavior by their leaders at almost every level of the organization.

[GodsStudent]

I concur with several others that this is a very thought provoking thread. I posted about some of my experiences with the Catholic Church earlier, but, I wanted to add a few thoughts. I believe that many of the men who have gone into the priesthood are drawn to that position by the "Power", "Money" and secretive nature of the entire culture that exists throughout the Catholic Church. I know that there are many Catholics that believe in Christ and are saved. However, after working with hundreds of individuals, over many years, in the Catholic Diocese, I am not at all convinced these priests and leaders have a true belief in Christ or salvation. I have worked with many varied groups throughout my career and I can tell you, I never had the overwhelming feeling of being in the presence of TRUE evil, until I started working within the Diocese. My point is this; the Catholic Priests that are accused of these horrible abuses are not just a few bad apples that need to be punished. The entire church and it's institutions, condone, permit and cover up for horrible behavior by their leaders at almost every level of the organization.

Debbie, you literally just made my skin crawl. I can feel it...just by how you described it.
I have always honestly believed this is where the false prophet is going to come out of. That position is a prostitute that carries a lust in the heart for power.....impotent but all powerful (these are MY descriptions of how I see this entity, the false prophet....and NOT taken from scripture).

To hear you describe your experience and couple it with my own mind's impression of what the heart of this entity would be like literally made my skin crawl. Wow, just wow.

[mark s]

John 10:10, the thief comes only to steal, kill, and destroy . . .

Ephesians 2:1-2 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience"

The prince of the power of the air working through the sons of disobedience to steal, kill, and destroy.

[Abiding in His Word]

I'm thinking these types of sexual sins are caused by the flesh. Here's a few scriptures that seem to say the origin of immorality is the flesh and comes from the heart.

Gal 5:19  Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 
Gal 5:20  idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions...

Eph 2:3  Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 

Jas 1:14  But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 
Jas 1:15  Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin...

Mat 15:19  "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

I could be wrong, but it seems most often they are not committed "spur of the moment," but rather the victim, time, and convenient place are planned in advance.

[keithareilly]

Where sexual Abuse of Children is concerned, one might wonder how such acts can work for good to those who love the Lord.

Romans 8:28 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 And we know that [a]God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Matthew 10:16
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

Having considered Matthew 10 this week, it occurred to me those who learn to be as clever as serpents while being as innocent as doves are those who experience predators but are not predators. It was not until Adam Sinned that He had the knowledge of Good And Evil. We each learn from the evil in this world. Yet we overcome evil by responding with good.

[mark s]

Keith, are you saying then that the learning of evil is good?

And . . . Abiding . . . I think the flesh, the world, and the unseen kingdom of darkness all complement each other well. At the end of the day, our flesh sins, others don't sin for us, though they may be instrumental in leading us into it.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Where sexual Abuse of Children is concerned, one might wonder how such acts can work for good to those who love the Lord.

Romans 8:28 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 And we know that [a]God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Matthew 10:16
“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

Having considered Matthew 10 this week, it occurred to me those who learn to be as clever as serpents while being as innocent as doves are those who experience predators but are not predators. It was not until Adam Sinned that He had the knowledge of Good And Evil. We each learn from the evil in this world. Yet we overcome evil by responding with good.

Hi Keith,

I've been thinking about this more.

The abuses I endured, I believe, left me much less clever. And what I've done to deal with it all hasn't all been innocent or right.

Personally, I believe that God used the events in my life to bring me to where I am. And if I consider to what maturity God may bring me throughout this live, who knows?

But even so, what I'll be when I die will be so far beyond this life - this corrupted world, corrupted flesh - it will be like trying to measure a dust mote by the universe!

God's plan was perfect, and God's plan was that man not sin. He told him not to. So sinless is best.

But here I am. Again, hopelessly corrupted flesh, in a world subjected to vanity. But that is the hope. That the meaninglessness in this world - this evil sin filled world - would send us running into the arms of Jesus.

Where we would find freedom from sin. And ultimately, the goal of God's perfect plan. Sinless.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Hi, Mark

I agree.

John 12:25B
and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

I assume the abuses you endured left you left walking down a path you did not want to walk down and that you hated your life. And because you hated your life you wanted to be a different person, a new creation. I assume you worked hard to cleanse the inside of the cup and thought others worked to do the same and therefore mistakenly trusted them. Thus making you feel stupid (less clever).

[keithareilly]

Keith, are you saying then that the learning of evil is good?

And . . . Abiding . . . I think the flesh, the world, and the unseen kingdom of darkness all complement each other well. At the end of the day, our flesh sins, others don't sin for us, though they may be instrumental in leading us into it.

Much love!
Mark

Gen 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "--
We cannot be God's children without becoming like him.
He requires us to be like Him: knowing good and evil; innocent as doves and wise as serpents.
Therefore, He sends us as sheep among wolves; and we learn.



I have found Romans 8:28 to be true.
Romans 8:28
28 And we know that [a]God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.


Consider the following.

Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

"And Yet not one" child is abused "apart from your father".

God is fully aware of what people do. And he allows it.
He deliberately sends as us sheep among wolves.

Therefore, I have also found Psalm Verse 47:2 to be very true.
For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
Keith

[Jericho]

God is fully aware of what people do. And he allows it.

Is it possible that God has intentionally chosen not to know everything that is going on? Two scriptures come to mind:

And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” (Job 2:2)

Why does God ask Satan where does he come from? Wouldn't he already know the answer? And wouldn't Satan know that he knows?

Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

Shouldn't God have known where they were and what had happened? God could be feigning ignorance just to see what they would say, and that is possible. But perhaps in allowing his creation to be as autonomous as possible he has chosen not to know everything. We have seen this sort of self-restraint before. God can do anything, yet he has chosen not to lie. In limiting himself in this regard he achieves a greater good. Another point, angels are called messengers, why would God need messengers? He's supposed to be omnipotent. But again, God could run everything, but he doesn't to allow his creation to take part in the process. Just a few random thoughts.

[mark s]

Hi, Mark

I agree.

John 12:25B
and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.

I assume the abuses you endured left you left walking down a path you did not want to walk down and that you hated your life. And because you hated your life you wanted to be a different person, a new creation. I assume you worked hard to cleanse the inside of the cup and thought others worked to do the same and therefore mistakenly trusted them. Thus making you feel stupid (less clever).

Hi Keith,

Interestingly, it wasn't quite that way. I was born again when I was 19 years old, 1981. I was fairly happy with my life in the overall. I was diving rapidly into new agism. Strange things were happening around me that seemed to have power. I had studied many religions, honestly seeking truth, and thinking I had found it. We are all gods, or collectively, god. I don't need to go into much detail, but I thought the pain was behind me, and the sky before me.

And then I had the opportunity to read The Late Great Planet Earth, then, What the World is Coming To. I very quickly saw that the Bible's prophecies were completely different than anything else I had seen, and I had a lot to compare. And I realized that the only way that Book could be like that is if the Author knew things no one within this continuum could know.

It's a quick leap from there to the knowledge that the rest is most likely, even assuredly, true. And there it was. Jesus was in fact the Risen Lord, so I need to start obeying Him. So I went and was baptized, and life changed.

It took quite a number of years for the damage done to me to assert itself. When I was saved, I also simply stopped with the alcohol and drugs, but over the next 5 years was doing it all again. But I never stopped knowing I was different from before.

I stopped drinking, starting living a better life, but still, over the course of more years, the damage asserted itself more and more. I've learned that it can be like that.

Psychiatrists say that by the time someone's life is sufficiently out of control for them to seek help, that they are often in their 50's, and by then, the best to hope for to achieve some greater level of comfort and safety, but that's it.

I know that's not true. I have the mind of Christ, and the body does have certain abilities to repair itself under the right conditions, not to mention if our Father steps in with a more active role.

So I've been a Christian for 37 years. I liked my life right before I became a Christian, and I heavily resisted giving it up. but truth it truth. And my divination had very accurately foretold this to me. Shortly after arriving "back home", I would be captured be the chief authority, would be imprisoned for two weeks, then set completely free. It was weird.

Being a Christian, while having such powerful drives from the flesh, in answering to its damage, how can I describe it?

Yes, things I've hated, but in the Lord.

Simply to say, I've proven to my satisfaction over the years of my personal inability to clean the cup at all, inside or outside. But I've also proven to my satisfaction that those who trust in the Lord will be clean cups, and those who actively pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, will live in the experience of being a clean cup.

And those to remain this way, will be cups for honorable use.

The whole roller coaster of determination followed by failure, in a day, a week, a year, always. The resultant sense of wrongness. And the feeling responsible for all my wrong-doings, buried in guilt, buried in shame.

And for years having come to understand, in my mind, the truth of the Gospel, we are free indeed, yet where was this freedom?

God has corrected me.

I was left damaged by abuse. As a result of this damage, behaviors which work against me emerged.

This is no different than the corruption of the flesh.

I was left damaged by sin. As a result of this damage, behaviors which work against me emerged.

Being able to look at a set of feelings and mental narratives and behaviors which arise from a damaged brain seeking chemical homeostasis has proven to be an invaluable tool in understanding the machinations of the flesh - the body. Damaged, undamaged, this is how it works, and it's not me. I'm the new creature.

So I don't actually have to follow it's directives, whether from this chemical alphabet soup, of simply the good ol' lusts of the flesh, it's the same thing to me.

I can feel anxiety because my flesh fears what is coming, or because my brain is trying to get a boost of chemicals, or because I have too much Candida in my gut. Either way, the response is the same. That's just what the body is doing. That's not me. I trust in the Lord.

OK.

I'm going to stop. I obviously have too much time on my hands.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Keith, are you saying then that the learning of evil is good?

And . . . Abiding . . . I think the flesh, the world, and the unseen kingdom of darkness all complement each other well. At the end of the day, our flesh sins, others don't sin for us, though they may be instrumental in leading us into it.

Much love!
Mark

Gen 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "--
We cannot be God's children without becoming like him.
He requires us to be like Him: knowing good and evil; innocent as doves and wise as serpents.
Therefore, He sends us as sheep among wolves; and we learn.



I have found Romans 8:28 to be true.
Romans 8:28
28 And we know that [a]God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.


Consider the following.

Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.

"And Yet not one" child is abused "apart from your father".

God is fully aware of what people do. And he allows it.
He deliberately sends as us sheep among wolves.

Therefore, I have also found Psalm Verse 47:2 to be very true.
For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
Keith

Hi Keith,

Just a thought on this one. God knows good and evil, without having had to commit evil.

Is it possible a time might have come when God would have invited man to eat? Perhaps after man had demonstrated that he would do whatever God said? Perhaps after man had eaten from the Tree of Life, so that he would live forever in his innocence, just as God would later deny man to eat from the Tree of Life, not wanting man to live forever in his corruption?

Assuming God actually were to want us to learn the ways of evil.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

Why does God ask Satan where does he come from? Wouldn't he already know the answer? And wouldn't Satan know that he knows?

Hi Jericho,

It makes Satan accountable. "Stand here and answer me." I know where you've been, I want to hear you say it.

That's my thinking. Why angels? I don't know.

Much love!
Mark

[extravagantchristian]

God is fully aware of what people do. And he allows it.

Is it possible that God has intentionally chosen not to know everything that is going on? Two scriptures come to mind:

And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” (Job 2:2)

Why does God ask Satan where does he come from? Wouldn't he already know the answer? And wouldn't Satan know that he knows?

Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

Shouldn't God have known where they were and what had happened? God could be feigning ignorance just to see what they would say, and that is possible. But perhaps in allowing his creation to be as autonomous as possible he has chosen not to know everything. We have seen this sort of self-restraint before. God can do anything, yet he has chosen not to lie. In limiting himself in this regard he achieves a greater good. Another point, angels are called messengers, why would God need messengers? He's supposed to be omnipotent. But again, God could run everything, but he doesn't to allow his creation to take part in the process. Just a few random thoughts.

I would say that if God doesn't know everything, then He's not in control of everything. If He really had no clue where Satan was, then He wouldn't know what kind of damage he was doing. That's a scary thought. How could God know the number of hairs on our head yet not really know what's going on here on earth. I assume He asked that question to Satan for the sake of the readers.

Also, if God is even partially unaware of what Satan is doing, then he would also be partially unaware of what we are doing. But he sees it all. Nothing is hidden and he said we will all give an account for every deed and word.

Jeremiah 23:24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places, So I shall not see him?” says the Lord; “Do I not fill heaven and earth?” says the Lord.

I don't think that God needs angels to give him messages but rather he uses them to give messages.

[keithareilly]

Hi Mark,

My life has been more like a crucible. The whole of me was dragged in to Christianity kicking and screaming until I decided to quit fighting. The crucible has been hot and gotten hotter all my life. Many of the more shallow sins melted away quickly leaving me somewhat purer. Deeper sins required hotter flame, pressure, and stress to force the renewing of my mind. The deepest ones from my childhood still remain. The purification / refinement process now frightens me. I have invented my own proverb:
"A wise man does not pray for wisdom".

I will say this, it is through experiencing evil I have learned about evil. Not so much the evil of my youth though. The evil I experience every day now teaches me much more than I learned when I was young. I can see it. I see it coming. I see its effects. Yet, I do yet see as much evil as I want to be able to see. I have learned we are limited in the amount of evil we can see by the amount of love we have within us. The less love we have, the less evil we can endure and are not allowed to see it lest we die. The more love we have, the more can love those with evil within their hearts while fulling understanding who and what they are; including ourselves. The sin that resides in our flesh wants to rule our flesh. But as we are purified, our minds are renewed, our behavior changes, and we can see evil for what it is.

Go into the city and checkout the alleys and the people that live in them. Look at them then tell yourself these are the people God told His servants to invite after those he originally invited made excuses for not coming to the wedding.


I have experienced Christianity as being like a fertilized chicken egg. The little red dot is the seed that eventually takes over the entire flesh inside the egg and must eventually come forth as a completely new being.

Keith

[keithareilly]

Mark Wrote ...

Hi Keith,

Just a thought on this one. God knows good and evil, without having had to commit evil.

Is it possible a time might have come when God would have invited man to eat? Perhaps after man had demonstrated that he would do whatever God said? Perhaps after man had eaten from the Tree of Life, so that he would live forever in his innocence, just as God would later deny man to eat from the Tree of Life, not wanting man to live forever in his corruption?

Assuming God actually were to want us to learn the ways of evil.

Much love!
Mark

Jesus commands us to be as innocent as doves and as clever as serpents.
We are commanded to: know good and evil, without committing evil. we are commanded to: Be like God.

Adam was free to eat of the tree of life until after he sinned. Only after Adam sinned was he removed from the Garden for the very purpose of preventing him from eating of the tree of life. We do not know whether or not Adam ate of the Tree of Life while in the Garden. But, he was free to do so; else, he would not have needed to be removed.

God is God.
When asked about why the man was born blind, Was it the man's sin or was it the man's parent's sin?
Jesus said the man was blind so the works of God might be displayed in him.
His blindness was brought about by God. Not Sin.
God does as he pleases for his glory. This includes causing us to suffer for the benefit of God and the benefit of others.
We do not have a choice when He makes such decisions.
God is God.



Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

When asked about why the man was born blind, Was it the man's sin or was it the man's parent's sin?
Jesus said the man was blind so the works of God might be displayed in him.
His blindness was brought about by God. Not Sin.
God does as he pleases for his glory.

I believe Jesus' answer to the disciples (John 9) was a reference to several the OT prophecies they would have known; specifically Isaiah 61:1 and Isaiah 42:7. Both speak of the Messiah being anointed to ..." proclaim good news to the poor, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed..." He was teaching them.

He was bringing the same awareness of His entity as the Messiah in the synagogue by reading the same prophecies to those present. When He was certain He had their attention (Luke 4:3...all eyes were on Him), He clearly announced the scripture was fulfilled that day.

To believe God causes sickness and physical deformity is totally contrary to evidence in scripture imho. He came for the purpose of not only eliminating pain and suffering, but bore our sorrows and grief Himself. (Isaiah 53) He offers living water, abundant life, light, love, peace and joy.

This includes causing us to suffer for the benefit of God and the benefit of others.
We do not have a choice when He makes such decisions.
God is God.

Pain, sorrow, disease, physical deformities, etc. are caused by genetics, medical error, accidents, exposure to radiation, fire, carelessness, crimes inflicted by others, epidemic diseases, etc. and many other factors. And yes, living with these can cause us to bear them as Paul did and lean in closer to Jesus for strength and endurance, but the Savior who laid down His life for those He loved does not resemble a taskmaster who must resort to harming someone intentionally as necessary to bring glory to Himself.

My thoughts....

[keithareilly]

Psalm 139:13-16
13For You formed my inward parts;
You wove me in my mother’s womb.

14I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Wonderful are Your works,
And my soul knows it very well.

15My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;

16Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;
And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them.

[mark s]

Hi Mark,

My life has been more like a crucible. The whole of me was dragged in to Christianity kicking and screaming until I decided to quit fighting. The crucible has been hot and gotten hotter all my life. Many of the more shallow sins melted away quickly leaving me somewhat purer. Deeper sins required hotter flame, pressure, and stress to force the renewing of my mind. The deepest ones from my childhood still remain. The purification / refinement process now frightens me. I have invented my own proverb:
"A wise man does not pray for wisdom".

I will say this, it is through experiencing evil I have learned about evil. Not so much the evil of my youth though. The evil I experience every day now teaches me much more than I learned when I was young. I can see it. I see it coming. I see its effects. Yet, I do yet see as much evil as I want to be able to see. I have learned we are limited in the amount of evil we can see by the amount of love we have within us. The less love we have, the less evil we can endure and are not allowed to see it lest we die. The more love we have, the more can love those with evil within their hearts while fulling understanding who and what they are; including ourselves. The sin that resides in our flesh wants to rule our flesh. But as we are purified, our minds are renewed, our behavior changes, and we can see evil for what it is.

Go into the city and checkout the alleys and the people that live in them. Look at them then tell yourself these are the people God told His servants to invite after those he originally invited made excuses for not coming to the wedding.


I have experienced Christianity as being like a fertilized chicken egg. The little red dot is the seed that eventually takes over the entire flesh inside the egg and must eventually come forth as a completely new being.

Keith

Hi Keith,

You remind me of Solomon:

Ecclesiastes 1:17-18 (NASB)

And I set my mind to know wisdom and to know madness and folly; I realized that this also is striving after wind. Because in much wisdom there is much grief, and increasing knowledge results in increasing pain.

But Solomon also wrote that wisdom is better than folly, for the fool walks in darkness, but the wise man's eyes are in his head. I think that's a good place for them to be!



I've learned not to be afraid of His sanctification process. Urban Rescue, in their song Wildfire, "In the furnace of my soul, fan the flame and take control, You're a wildfire! And though the storm rage on inside, there is a joy I cannot hide, You're a wildfire!"

One of the promises I don't hear people mention too often, but that I cling to as my final hope, Our God is a Consuming Fire. Consume my flesh!

The pain and perplexity and debilitation have been very difficult, the the end results of God's discipline - not punishment, but sanctification - is the peaceable fruit of righteousness. And it is well worth any price.

In 2 Corinthians 3-4, Paul wrote about a ministry he had received, not of the letter of the law unto condemnation, but from the Spirit, a ministry of life. And because he had this ministry, everything else was second to that.

Anything that God needs to address in my life in order to make me more effective, more surrendered, in order to further this ministry of life through me, imparting grace from God to those who hear, and to those I serve, there is nothing I want more than that to be out of my way, so I can ministry life without hindrance.

I like what you wrote that the more we love others, the more we can handle what we find in others.

I understand sanctification to describe the process of imposing the will of the new creation over the the will of the old creation, for control of the body, more and more consistently.

I believe we have the ability to simply pass judgment over any fleshy lusts, whatever they are, either as useful and needed, like appropriate hunger, or not useful, working against us, like hunger for overindulgence. Again, to borrow from Solomon, to eat and drink for strength, and not for drunkenness.

Those we deem not good, we can ignore as of no further consequence then ignoring the itch on a scab that's not ready to come off.

Much love!
Mark

. . . adding . . . I get the whole crucible thing. That's been the process by which I've reached these conclusions. What the difficulties did was to show me where I was not trusting in God, and to bring about a more full faith. Now, that this was in pretty much every area of life, that would be my fault!

[mark s]

Jesus commands us to be as innocent as doves and as clever as serpents.
We are commanded to: know good and evil, without committing evil. we are commanded to: Be like God.

Hi Keith,

I'm thinking of this verse:

Romans 16:19 (NASB) "For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil."

Not to mention we are to spend our time thinking about what is good, and pure, and noble, setting our minds on the heavenly things.

Adam was free to eat of the tree of life until after he sinned. Only after Adam sinned was he removed from the Garden for the very purpose of preventing him from eating of the tree of life. We do not know whether or not Adam ate of the Tree of Life while in the Garden. But, he was free to do so; else, he would not have needed to be removed.

Except that God said, to prevent man from eating from the tree of life lest he live forever, as if once would be enough.

I'm thinking it may not have had fruit yet. But that's just me.

God is God.

Solomon again! I don't remember the reference, it's Ecclesiastes, from the NLT, "It was already decided long ago what everyone would be, so there's no use arguing with God about it. The more words you use, the less they mean, so what good are they?"

When asked about why the man was born blind, Was it the man's sin or was it the man's parent's sin?
Jesus said the man was blind so the works of God might be displayed in him.
His blindness was brought about by God. Not Sin.

And yet, would this man have been born blind had sin not entered the world?

God does as he pleases for his glory. This includes causing us to suffer for the benefit of God and the benefit of others.
We do not have a choice when He makes such decisions.
God is God.

Agreed. But I support His choices!

I believe that I had the history I had so that God would be glorified in me, and that being by re-birthing me in His likeness, and then giving me the wonderful gifts I have today, giving thanks to Him.

Much love
Mark

[mark s]

If my pain were not sanctioned by God, for His purposes, then I should have something to protest, a violation of my person, but God tells me to thank Him for everything.

Why would that be?

Much love,
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

If my pain were not sanctioned by God, for His purposes...

Mark, curious what you mean by "sanctioned" by God.

....then I should have something to protest, a violation of my person....

The children who were sexually abused were violated, weren't they? Do you think their abuse sanctioned by God? Would it be understandable if they were to protest the abuse?

[Abiding in His Word]

God does as he pleases for his glory. This includes causing us to suffer for the benefit of God and the benefit of others.

Keith, would you clarify what you mean by God "causing" us to suffer? Do you mean He actually "causes" the abuser to abuse? And how does our suffering benefit others?

How does the abuse, and consequently the suffering, of over 1,000 children by Roman Catholic Priests benefit others?

We do not have a choice when He makes such decisions.

If you believe God "causes" our suffering, don't we have the choice/freedom to get medical help for our pain and/or suffering?

[mark s]

Hi Abiding,

I mean like what we see pictured in Job. Satan was not allowed to afflict Job unless God allowed him to.

I believe that is the only reasonable view considering God's promise that all things work for our good, we who are the called, who love God. If everything only works for our good, then nothing that cannot work for our good can be allowed by God.

When Abraham took Sarah into (where?) Abimelek took Sarah to be his wife, having been told that Sarah was only Abraham's sister. Later, God came to Abimelek in a dream, telling him he had another man's wife. Abimelek responded that he was innocent, he didn't know. God assured him that He knew that, and that was why God had restrained Abimelek from sin. But go and make it right.

So God is in the business of restraining from sin, at least in some instance. There is a restrainer to the secret working of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2). God holds people back from sin. He could have held back the people who abused me. He didn't.

Doesn't He love me?

I assert that He does.

So then why would He not have stopped people from sinning against me? He did that in other people! Why not for me?

Because He loves me.

Was God complicit through inaction in my abuse? Along the lines of you or I walking through some deserted lot somewhere, and seeing an adult abusing a child, and doing nothing? (not that I'm saying we should do nothing)

I know, it seems counter intuitive. Even so, my very salvation came through the intense suffering of my Savior. And I'm told to follow in His example.

And as much as I study words like tribulation, affliction, there's the persecution and what comes with that, and there is all the trouble we all know in life, and I see all of that included.

As I look at my life, I am reconciled to it. He loves me.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

I don't think I could answer your questions better than Mark has answered them.

Know and understand this: I would not trade away the knowledge I have gained about Good and Evil.
Though the purification / refinement process now frightens me. I continue to ask for more.


Keith

[keithareilly]

Mark said

If my pain were not sanctioned by God, for His purposes, then I should have something to protest, a violation of my person, but God tells me to thank Him for everything.

Sooth.

[Abiding in His Word]

I mean like what we see pictured in Job. Satan was not allowed to afflict Job unless God allowed him to.

Job is a fascinating book but I don't think that's the primary message we should take away from it. It's an overview of Job's afflictions and the erroneous conclusions arrived at by his friends rather than the comfort Job was seeking. It's purpose is more imho an accurate portrayal of God's wisdom, power, patience, kindness, care and concern for nature, etc. Some see the account of Job as a type of Christ in his sufferings and undeserved afflictions. But perhaps that's a better topic for another thread as it doesn't do justice to the whole message by simply taking one or two verses from it.

I believe that is the only reasonable view considering God's promise that all things work for our good, we who are the called, who love God. If everything only works for our good, then nothing that cannot work for our good can be allowed by God.

God has given mankind a free-will by which he is able to make choices and decisions. God's people will not intentionally use those abilities to engage in actions that are sinful, but those who do not know Christ, do not have the same moral conscience that believers do and may commit acts that cause pain and suffering to others.

When Abraham took Sarah into (where?) Abimelek took Sarah to be his wife, having been told that Sarah was only Abraham's sister. Later, God came to Abimelek in a dream, telling him he had another man's wife. Abimelek responded that he was innocent, he didn't know. God assured him that He knew that, and that was why God had restrained Abimelek from sin. But go and make it right.

I think you would agree that God intervened in that situation since He had promised Sarah (and Abraham) that she would be the mother of nations which ultimately would be IIRC the 12 tribes of Israel and Israel and Judah. I'm a bit rusty on that, but you can find the reason for God's special intervention in Gen. 17. Those prophetic words could not have been fulfilled had Abimelech taken Sarah as his wife or engaged in intimacy with her.

On the other hand, God did not intervene when Joseph's brothers sold him into captivity but he later told them that God brought good into that situation at a time of famine in the land and the whole family was able to survive. So while God didn't intervene, in His foreknowledge, He knew the eventual good that would result from the abuse inflicted on Joseph by his brothers.

So God is in the business of restraining from sin, at least in some instance. There is a restrainer to the secret working of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2).

The passage is about the antichrist or the man of lawlessness and Paul's warning about deception. Th 2:3  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

God holds people back from sin. He could have held back the people who abused me. He didn't.

Doesn't He love me?

I assert that He does.

So then why would He not have stopped people from sinning against me? He did that in other people! Why not for me?

Because He loves me.

His love for you is indescribable, immeasurable, and so deep that He laid down His very life for you. His Word is overflowing with scripture to help us understand the depth of love He has for each of us.

I hear God's love in the posts you share; the way you share with others; the freedom you feel to correct error; the love you have for the gifts you've been given. You are mirroring God's love to those you associate with.

Was God complicit through inaction in my abuse? Along the lines of you or I walking through some deserted lot somewhere, and seeing an adult abusing a child, and doing nothing? (not that I'm saying we should do nothing)

Mark, scripture tells us that at one time God saw so much evil in the world that He was sorry He made man and He grieved in His heart.

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. Gen 6:5-6 

He grieves that you were abused. But because you turned to Him and were born from above, you are now able to receive and feel His comfort and love where perhaps you couldn't before. Sometimes when I get overwhelmed with the sorrow and stress of life's difficulties, I read The Emotional Jesus: His Ups and Downs and remember that He identifies with our griefs and sorrows because He experienced many of the same.

I know, it seems counter intuitive. Even so, my very salvation came through the intense suffering of my Savior. And I'm told to follow in His example.

And as much as I study words like tribulation, affliction, there's the persecution and what comes with that, and there is all the trouble we all know in life, and I see all of that included.

As I look at my life, I am reconciled to it. He loves me.

[keithareilly]

Job 6:4
“For the arrows of the Almighty are within me,
Their poison my spirit drinks;
The terrors of God are arrayed against me.


Job understood God was the source of his suffering.

The point is: All things work to the good of those who love the lord. Even our suffering at the hands of predators.

Does God hold predators accountable for their actions even though He created the ignoble vessel for ignoble purposes and then uses their ignoble actions for our benefit? Yes.

Keith

[Abiding in His Word]

Job 6:4
“For the arrows of the Almighty are within me,
Their poison my spirit drinks;
The terrors of God are arrayed against me.


Job understood God was the source of his suffering.

I'm pretty sure in the depths of Job's despair he FELT God caused his suffering. Just as David did when he FELT like God had abandoned him as he was experiencing such agony in his soul.

  I was afflicted and about to die from my youth on; I suffer Your terrors; I am overcome.  Your burning anger has passed over me; Your terrors have destroyed me.Psalm 88:15-16 

I know there are some who believe God causes suffering, pain, and even sickness and disease. I do not. I would find it difficult to worship a God of such cruelty, but if I could, it would be out of fear rather than love.

"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He. Deut. 32:4

[mark s]

I mean like what we see pictured in Job. Satan was not allowed to afflict Job unless God allowed him to.

Job is a fascinating book but I don't think that's the primary message we should take away from it. It's an overview of Job's afflictions and the erroneous conclusions arrived at by his friends rather than the comfort Job was seeking. It's purpose is more imho an accurate portrayal of God's wisdom, power, patience, kindness, care and concern for nature, etc. Some see the account of Job as a type of Christ in his sufferings and undeserved afflictions. But perhaps that's a better topic for another thread as it doesn't do justice to the whole message by simply taking one or two verses from it.

Hi Abiding,

I'm looking at Satan's conversation with God, rather than Job's understandings, which, while accurately reported, may be erroneous in themselves.

Job 1:9-12 (NASB)

Then Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face.” Then the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him.” So Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.

What I'm seeing here is that God limited Satan's activity. God gave Satan additional prerogative, but still maintained limits on Satan's activity.

I believe that is the only reasonable view considering God's promise that all things work for our good, we who are the called, who love God. If everything only works for our good, then nothing that cannot work for our good can be allowed by God.

God has given mankind a free-will by which he is able to make choices and decisions. God's people will not intentionally use those abilities to engage in actions that are sinful, but those who do not know Christ, do not have the same moral conscience that believers do and may commit acts that cause pain and suffering to others.

If it was God's will that Jesus die, well, Jesus died at the hands of murderers. The most monstrous sin of all was perpetuated against God's Son, according to God's plan to redeem us, the wisdom hidden through the ages, which, if the world rulers had understood it, wouldn't have killed Jesus. God used them to work His will, though they alone are responsible for their sin.

At the right time, God sent His Son. I think this means when they were certain to kill Him.

When Abraham took Sarah into (where?) Abimelek took Sarah to be his wife, having been told that Sarah was only Abraham's sister. Later, God came to Abimelek in a dream, telling him he had another man's wife. Abimelek responded that he was innocent, he didn't know. God assured him that He knew that, and that was why God had restrained Abimelek from sin. But go and make it right.

I think you would agree that God intervened in that situation since He had promised Sarah (and Abraham) that she would be the mother of nations which ultimately would be IIRC the 12 tribes of Israel and Israel and Judah. I'm a bit rusty on that, but you can find the reason for God's special intervention in Gen. 17. Those prophetic words could not have been fulfilled had Abimelech taken Sarah as his wife or engaged in intimacy with her.

I'm not sure those words could not have been fulfilled has Abimelech sinned with Sarah, but then returned her to Abraham. there was no law yet prohibiting that. I expect that's what God was doing, keeping Sarah for Abraham. But just the same, I see that God's not above interfering with man's choices.

Balaam, when he tried to curse Israel, could only bless.

On the other hand, God did not intervene when Joseph's brothers sold him into captivity but he later told them that God brought good into that situation at a time of famine in the land and the whole family was able to survive. So while God didn't intervene, in His foreknowledge, He knew the eventual good that would result from the abuse inflicted on Joseph by his brothers.

I think the passage reads, Joseph, telling his brothers, you meant it for evil, but the Lord meant it for good.

The Lord meant for this?

So God is in the business of restraining from sin, at least in some instance. There is a restrainer to the secret working of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2).

The passage is about the antichrist or the man of lawlessness and Paul's warning about deception. Th 2:3  Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 (NASB)
And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

I'm thinking of this place. There is the one being restrained, and there is also the "mystery of lawlessness", which is likewise restrained, which I understand to mean, "the secret working of lawlessness", after the meaning of "musterion", a secret only understood or known by revelation, which is now being revealed.

God also marches people to their destruction, for instance Saul, and Ahaz.

Was God complicit through inaction in my abuse? Along the lines of you or I walking through some deserted lot somewhere, and seeing an adult abusing a child, and doing nothing? (not that I'm saying we should do nothing)

Mark, scripture tells us that at one time God saw so much evil in the world that He was sorry He made man and He grieved in His heart.

Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. Gen 6:5-6 

He grieves that you were abused. But because you turned to Him and were born from above, you are now able to receive and feel His comfort and love where perhaps you couldn't before. Sometimes when I get overwhelmed with the sorrow and stress of life's difficulties, I read The Emotional Jesus: His Ups and Downs and remember that He identifies with our griefs and sorrows because He experienced many of the same.

I surmise that it was because of my abuse that I turned to God, and that God knew that would be the outcome, while also knowing the outcome would not be to salvation another way.

Otherwise, again, I'm looking at a God Who simply allows grievous harm to those He loves, though He disapproves of the harm, though He could easily stop the harm, instead, He simply allows it through His own activity. "Well, I told them they could do whatever they want. I'll just plan on playing clean-up after they finished destroying Mark's life."

I just don't think that's it. I think God, knowing all things, predestined my life into that which would propel me to Him, because that's how much He loves me. And that He didn't just leave me to suffer, but build in all I would need.

Even the flood was to prevent the continuance of evil, rather than respect the choices of those choosing it.

Just as God will judge the world.

Psalm 119 "Teth" (NASB)

You have dealt well with Your servant,
O Lord, according to Your word.
Teach me good discernment and knowledge,
For I believe in Your commandments.
Before I was afflicted I went astray,
But now I keep Your word.
You are good and do good;
Teach me Your statutes.
The arrogant have forged a lie against me;
With all my heart I will observe Your precepts.
Their heart is covered with fat,
But I delight in Your law.
It is good for me that I was afflicted,
That I may learn Your statutes.
The law of Your mouth is better to me
Than thousands of gold and silver pieces.

Much love!
Mark

[mark s]

I know I've used this before, I liken it to a father and son, two weeks into the mountains backpacking. The son falls and breaks his leg. The father splints the broken bones, carries his son down the mountain, but it takes a week before he can get the boy to the closest hospital, and meanwhile the bone have begun to heal, but they are crooked. The break must be reset to heal straight. Not doing so would leave the boy crippled.

The father pays a stranger to break his son's leg.

"Son, this is going to hurt. But I'm doing this because I love you."

"But I just broke my leg!"

"I know. That's why I'm going to have it broken again."

[Abiding in His Word]

I know I've used this before, I liken it to a father and son, two weeks into the mountains backpacking. The son falls and breaks his leg. The father splints the broken bones, carries his son down the mountain, but it takes a week before he can get the boy to the closest hospital, and meanwhile the bone have begun to heal, but they are crooked. The break must be reset to heal straight. Not doing so would leave the boy crippled.

The father pays a stranger to break his son's leg.

"Son, this is going to hurt. But I'm doing this because I love you."

"But I just broke my leg!"

"I know. That's why I'm going to have it broken again."

Using this as an example of love, should we grieve about the thousands abused by Catholic Priests and/or by Baptist Pastors when actually their abuse may ultimately be the vehicle that will bring good down the road…. at some later date?

My thinking about the example you cited is different. Upon discovering the leg healing crooked, but the boy apparently is not complaining of any pain, a one week trip to the closet hospital would be the wisest decision. There the boy would receive care from those who specialize in such matters and would receive an anesthesia prior to operating (should that be necessary). In addition, it would eliminate the pain of breaking the leg a second time. The man should have had confidence in those trained in the medical field rather than employing a stranger with little to no experience in this field. Perhaps a cast would have sufficed to straighten the bones. Better imo to take the matter to those most knowledgeable for the best treatment.

[mark s]

Hi Abiding,

I'm sorry, perhaps I was too abbreviated. I meant that this would be doctor, in a hospital, and all properly done. That it took a week to get out of the mountain, to the hospital. But who can have a broken leg without pain and other distress?

Only that the doctor was a stranger to the man and his son.

This is the father doing the best he can for his son. He couldn't get him out any quicker. He couldn't splint the leg any better. He did his best, he moved his quickest, but even so. Then to straighten what would be lame otherwise involves at least a certain level of suffering.

Does that not make the point that at least sometimes, there is a certain amount of pain in fixing what is broken?

Using this as an example of love, should we grieve about the thousands abused by Catholic Priests and/or by Baptist Pastors when actually their abuse may ultimately be the vehicle that will bring good down the road…. at some later date?

Weep with those who weep, and mourn with those who mourn. Pray for the suffering, and seek justice upon their abusers. That's what I think.

Much love!
Mark

[Abiding in His Word]

I'm sorry, perhaps I was too abbreviated. I meant that this would be doctor, in a hospital, and all properly done. That it took a week to get out of the mountain, to the hospital. But who can have a broken leg without pain and other distress?

Only that the doctor was a stranger to the man and his son.

This is the father doing the best he can for his son. He couldn't get him out any quicker. He couldn't splint the leg any better. He did his best, he moved his quickest, but even so. Then to straighten what would be lame otherwise involves at least a certain level of suffering.

Ahhh....a very different scenario now. Thanks for the clarification, Mark.

Does that not make the point that at least sometimes, there is a certain amount of pain in fixing what is broken?

Certainly! We cannot escape pain in this world whether it's physical, emotional, or even spiritual. And depending on the pain or abuse, the time factor for healing must be considered. It may be different for each of the victims.

Using this as an example of love, should we grieve about the thousands abused by Catholic Priests and/or by Baptist Pastors when actually their abuse may ultimately be the vehicle that will bring good down the road…. at some later date?

Weep with those who weep, and mourn with those who mourn. Pray for the suffering, and seek justice upon their abusers. That's what I think.

[mark s]

What if what were broken is deeper inside? All the way inside?

What if the suffering in this world, whether at the hands of others or just because, are the pain of being fixed? So we are not crippled?

Much love!

Mark

PS . . . I want each of you participating to know how much I appreciate the opportunity to talk through these things.

[keithareilly]

Abiding,

It does not depend on the man who wills, or the man who runs, but on God.

If I assert the above statement means it is God who decides such things,
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”

My response would be ...
On the contrary, who are you, O [wo]man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?

The conversation has already taken place. We know the answer.
He makes honorable vessels; other vessels; each for His purposes.

Keith

[mark s]

Hi Keith,

I'd still say that our desires and choices come into play as well. But within the limits He has placed.

Much love!
mark

[keithareilly]

Hi Keith,

I'd still say that our desires and choices come into play as well. But within the limits He has placed.

Much love!
mark

And I agree with you Mark.
Predestination and freedom of choice are opposites sides of the same action (coin).
As you have described, every action is a result of the two working hand in hand.
Hence both predestination and freedom of choice are true simultaneously.

Therefore, God, who created the ignoble vessel to accomplish the ignoble purposes for which He created it, ensures all things work for the good of those who love Him. And he holds those ignoble vessels he created accountable for their decision to accomplish the actions which come from their wicked heart.

And so should we hold them accountable for their decisions;
not giving them a pass because of the predestination side of the coin.

Keith

[mark s]

Of course, God told Timothy that if he kept himself pure, then he would be a vessel for honorable use.

I don't really see free will and predestination as two sides of a coin. I see one as describing what God does and the other describing what man does. And I don't see them as the same thing.

I look at predestination as how God limits my options to those that will make me like Jesus. But He doesn't do this for everyone, the Bible says He does that for those He knew ahead of time.

I believe this means that having known that in at least certain circumstances (Acts 17 ~ He chose the times and boundaries of our habitations, so that we would look for Him) that I would chose to know God, He put me into those circumstances. But this is because He already made His choice. He wants me. He wants all humanity.

So God makes a choice - I chose to redeem man - and then makes another choice (in human thinking) - I want man to choose either to be with Me or to not.

Then man must choose.

And for those who would choose Him, we find that all our live had been tailored around that.

He knew what it would take for me to turn to Him, so He set limits to include those things, but to keep out other things. Again, this is how I look at it.

But after the matter of salvation, I find a whole spectrum of things, or so it seems to me, that can be impacted by me, depending on what degree of faith I will give myself over into.

The flesh may feel fear of condemnation, or fear of suffering, or fear of loss, but does my spirit? I don't think so. My new creature is a product of God's spirit. God is love. Perfect love casts out fear. So I know fear is not of the spirit, it is of the flesh.

I have another bad tooth. Bad teeth have been my bane for the past few years. But God has used bad teeth as His mechanism to bring wonderful transformation into my life. My mouth doesn't feel right, gums are sore, I'm about to have another root canal due to another abscess, the last one failed, and after $4500, I'm missing a tooth. I could have just had it pulled.

And now here I go again. They've got scheduled to fix this tooth, and fit a Cantilever Bridge, total cost about $3700. I'm feeling like the woman who spent all she had and was none the better, actually worse.

But while my flesh is afraid, my spirit trusts.

I could allow the flesh thoughts and feelings of fear fill my mind, as in times past, but I'm choosing to let trust in God fill my mind, know, absolutely, that just has God has used these things to work wonderful transformations in my life in the past, so it will be this time. Hope does not disappoint.

I can choose the way of the flesh, or I could choose the way of faith. That doesn't mean that the flesh stops trying to assert itself, and if we ascribe to the flesh power, then we become under it's sway. But if we know that the flesh has no power, no matter the thought, no matter the feeling, no matter the circumstance, this is the faith in which we stand.

Much love!
Mark

[keithareilly]

Hi Mark,

I agree. I don't see anything you said as any different than what I said.