Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:22 pm

mark s wrote:So then, Jay, are you saying that the born again can die again?

Much love!
Mark


It depends on what you believe. The once saved always saved theology does not gain traction in my understanding of a relationship with God. Jesus tells us not to grieve the holy spirit as the HS cannot forgive us.

It's like the once married always married thinking of people, it just is not always true, as great numbers of married people split up and get divorced so that they can do the same thing all over again, continues to rise on a percentage basis.

All relationships need working on and unless we work on our relationship with God and seek forgiveness for when we make our relationship more than shaky with God then the answer is yes to your question. It all depends on whether or not their is pride rising up that is in denial.

Shalom
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:04 pm

Jay Ross wrote:
mark s wrote:So then, Jay, are you saying that the born again can die again?

Much love!
Mark


It depends on what you believe.


Actually, I was asking what you think. What I think is that no, once someone is born, they do not become "unborn".

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:16 pm

mark s wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:
mark s wrote:So then, Jay, are you saying that the born again can die again?

Much love!
Mark


It depends on what you believe.


Actually, I was asking what you think. What I think is that no, once someone is born, they do not become "unborn".

Much love!
Mark


That is very true Mark, for a new born baby, but what we are talking about is something very different. Can a person turn their back on God even when they have been filled with the HS or as you have put it, born again? The answer is YES, they can turn their back on God and become a candidate once again for the second death.

I think that every Relationship needs to be worked on, particularly from our end. We cannot change the other party but we can work on ourselves so that the relationship is not destroyed because of the decision that we may make, even unintentional ones.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:39 pm

Hi Mark, There are a number of passages and maybe we can go through several.

In James 1:12-16
Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the Crown of Life which the Lord has promised to them who love Him.
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.
Do not err, my beloved Brethren.


Here, we find a spiritual death, and possibly as you have mentioned, an early death physically.

There are points here where we can remove ourself from going further down the wrong road. The first would be after lusting. We lust, and we bring it before God and confess it to the Lord, He forgives us, and we can ask for help and grace to overcome.

The second is after lust has conceived and we commit sin. We ask God for mercy, we repent, and ask for grace to overcome.

The third would be before sin is finished and brings forth death, we turn to God with repentance, He forgives and cleanses us, and we ask for help and grace to overcome.

Spiritual death means we are lost, and we are no longer saved. Does this happen a lot? More than we might think. I don’t think about it a lot, but I believe thousands of once believers, every year, fall away from the faith. Many of these are college students who go into college saved, and come out lost.

Now, is there death permanent? Not necessarily. Just like there is hope for the nation of Israel to be saved, and they will be, there is hope for these young people, if they were raised right.

In Proverbs, it says, Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he shall not depart from it.

Here, we hope that they will not perish before this happens. Also we should note that if they were raised in religion, being saved, but among much hypocrisy and wrong teaching, God not giving up on them would play a big part in bringing them back to himself.

If God works on trying to get them to come back, can we say that they were lost? If He leaves the 99 sheep to go find the one who is lost, is the one sheep lost? Yes, he is lost until he is found. Remember, I’m talking about 100 sheep, God’s people.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:54 am

Jay Ross wrote:That is very true Mark, for a new born baby, but what we are talking about is something very different. Can a person turn their back on God even when they have been filled with the HS or as you have put it, born again? The answer is YES, they can turn their back on God and become a candidate once again for the second death.

I think that every Relationship needs to be worked on, particularly from our end. We cannot change the other party but we can work on ourselves so that the relationship is not destroyed because of the decision that we may make, even unintentional ones.


So then, to be clear, the born again can die again?

And so this makes my remaining saved up to me?

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:31 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi Mark, There are a number of passages and maybe we can go through several.

In James 1:12-16
Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the Crown of Life which the Lord has promised to them who love Him.
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.
Do not err, my beloved Brethren.


Here, we find a spiritual death, and possibly as you have mentioned, an early death physically.


Hi SCB,

Definitely death in this passage!

Starting from the top, we read that the man who endures temptation, being tried, is blessed, as he will receive the crown of life promised by the Lord to those who love Him.

(I'd like to mention that this "blessed" is from the Greek makarios, which means, this person is happy indeed! This is different from eulogia, to speak a good word.)

This goes well with 1 Peter 1:6-7 (EMTV)

"In which you greatly rejoice, though for a little while now, if need be, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, which is more precious than gold that perishes, though being tested with fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Genuine Faith withstands testing.

Romans 5:3-5 (EMTV)
"And not only that, but we also rejoice in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces endurance; and endurance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not put to shame, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

In the believer, it's God's love in our hearts that produces this final result of hope, produced out of our tribulations.

What about those others?

1 John 2:18-19

"Little children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out in order that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

The true remain. The false, though having appeared true, leave, not because they were of us and are not any longer, but because they never were of us.

Mark 4:3-6 (EMTV)
"Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell alongside the road; and the birds came and devoured it. And some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. But when the sun rose it was scorched, and because it had no root it was withered up."

Vs 16-17
"And these are similarly the seeds being sown on stony ground which, whenever they hear the word, immediately they receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but are shortlived. Afterward, when trials or persecution arise because of the word, immediately they fall away."

These have an emotional experience, but have no root. Nothing actually penetrated.

When the false are tried, they fall away. When the true are tried, they do not.

Moving on . . .

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man:"

God does not tempt us to do evil, nor will He ever consider doing evil, not ever at all!

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death."

A progression . . . temptation . . . appealing to one's lusts, drawing them towards sinning. And the result if allowed to go to term is sin, and sin, at the end of it all, kills.

"Do not err, my beloved Brethren."

I feel confident we share this concern!

:grin:

Sin kills. No question about it. It killed all of humanity.

Rom 5:15-21 (EMTV)

"But the free gift is not like the offense.

For if by the offense of one man many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to the many.

And the gift is not as by one having sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift from many offenses resulted in justification.

For if by the offense of the one man death reigned through the one man, much more those receiving the abundance of the grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

For through the disobedience of the one man the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of the One many shall be constituted righteous.

But the law came in alongside, so that the offense might abound.

But where sin abounded, grace super-abounded, so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

What exactly is the part in this passage in James which would tell us that the born again will fail the test? These other places tell me that the testing separates the true from the false.

Isn't that the same in James? Jesus told us we have eternal life. Peter tells me that testing proves that it's true. Those who fail the test leave, but then the Bible says that those who leave, or fail the test, aren't true.

Spiritual death means we are lost, and we are no longer saved. Does this happen a lot? More than we might think. I don’t think about it a lot, but I believe thousands of once believers, every year, fall away from the faith. Many of these are college students who go into college saved, and come out lost.


Is this simply observation? This person professes faith inbound, but not outbound, therefore the born again die again? John said that even those in the church couldn't tell if someone was truly saved until it was clear they were not.

If God works on trying to get them to come back, can we say that they were lost? If He leaves the 99 sheep to go find the one who is lost, is the one sheep lost? Yes, he is lost until he is found. Remember, I’m talking about 100 sheep, God’s people.


The parable is a simple story using familiar concepts to teach a truth.

Consider the "parable of the unjust judge". God says He's like that judge, keep asking Him and He'll do it. But that doesn't mean that God is unjust. Jesus was simply using something the people were familiar with to teach a truth, continue without weariness in prayer.

In this parable, the lost sheep, or the lost coin (coin?), it's not about what was lost, it's about Who is searching, and how they go about it. We know what is lost. People. The complaint was that Jesus was eating with sinners. His answer was that He was sent to find the lost, just like a shepherd and his sheep, just like a woman and her coin.

He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel.

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:25 pm

mark s wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:That is very true Mark, for a new born baby, but what we are talking about is something very different. Can a person turn their back on God even when they have been filled with the HS or as you have put it, born again? The answer is YES, they can turn their back on God and become a candidate once again for the second death.

I think that every Relationship needs to be worked on, particularly from our end. We cannot change the other party but we can work on ourselves so that the relationship is not destroyed because of the decision that we may make, even unintentional ones.


So then, to be clear, the born again can die again?

And so this makes my remaining saved up to me?

Much love!

Mark


It certainly does Mark, as God allows you/me/others to make the day to day choices that impact your/mine/their salvation.

In Ephesians 4, we are told to renew our mind and to then take this refurbished nature and to put it on and to wear it as it is in the very nature and likeness of God. The putting on of God's nature and likeness is a daily choice. If we stumble in our daily journey, then God is there, if we chose to allow His help, to raise us up once more and to repair the breach that we have allowed into our lives. Now this is not a prescriptive process where I can tell you the process steps that must be followed to remain close to God's heart in all that we do. How we deal with out stumbling, defines who we are in Christ. Sounds like a simple formula but it is often difficult to put into practice as there are so many influences around us to distract us from God's love that they become like a wedge driven in further splitting us away from God. It is the planting of doubt, i.e. tares, in our lives that cause us to question God and His Love for us.

Shalom
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:30 pm

Yikes!

:faint:

Here's hoping!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:46 pm

Jay Ross wrote:So then, to be clear, the born again can die again?

And so this makes my remaining saved up to me?

Much love!

Mark


It certainly does Mark, as God allows you/me/others to make the day to day choices that impact your/mine/their salvation.

In Ephesians 4, we are told to renew our mind and to then take this refurbished nature and to put it on and to wear it as it is in the very nature and likeness of God. The putting on of God's nature and likeness is a daily choice. If we stumble in our daily journey, then God is there, if we chose to allow His help, to raise us up once more and to repair the breach that we have allowed into our lives. Now this is not a prescriptive process where I can tell you the process steps that must be followed to remain close to God's heart in all that we do. How we deal with out stumbling, defines who we are in Christ. Sounds like a simple formula but it is often difficult to put into practice as there are so many influences around us to distract us from God's love that they become like a wedge driven in further splitting us away from God. It is the planting of doubt, i.e. tares, in our lives that cause us to question God and His Love for us.

Shalom[/quote]

But seriously . . .

Hi Jay,

You wrote:

The putting on of God's nature and likeness is a daily choice.


To be sure, I'm not absolutely certain I understand what you mean here, since "putting on of God's nature and likeness" is not something I read in Scripture, so I don't really have a Scriptural definition for this phrase. But it does remind me very much of Ephesians 4,

Ephesians 4:22-24 (EMTV)

. . . that you put off, concerning your former way of life, the old man which is being corrupted according to the deceitful lusts, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created in the likeness of God, in true righteousness and holiness.


Except that it's not "God's nature and likeness" that we are to put on, it is the new man, which, we are told, was created - a thing that has been done - in God's likeness, which is in true righteousness and holiness.

Isn't this like saying, "Wear the new person God created as the new you, not the old person you once were"?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:59 pm

Yep, that was the passage that I was referring to.

The other passage in Ephesians is: -

Ephesians 6:10-20: - The Whole Armor of God

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints — 19 and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.


Now in putting on the whole armor is this a daily requirement or is one putting on some time in the past, sufficient.

A number of commentaries that I have read suggest that this is best done daily.

Shalom
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:00 pm

It's an interesting comparison, what Isaiah wrote from God, something like, "I looked, and was astounded! No man interceded! So my own right arm brought me salvation. I put on righteousness like a breastplate, and salvation as a helmet, and zeal like a cloak . . . something I'm forgetting . . . He became incarnate.

God expressed His Own nature through human flesh, made in the likeness of sinful flesh, yet without sin. He didn't "become" God, He lived His Godhood through His body.

Now we are to live who we are, through our bodies.

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Hi Mark, I will give you the sheep parable. I didn’t look it up, I was going by memory and I shouldn’t do that when debating you.

In the verse in James, of special note is the phrase, ‘Do not err my beloved Brethren’. He is talking to believers, true believers. Your theory of who is saved and who isn’t doesn’t hold up against this.

You say, it shows that they were never saved. No, it doesn’t show that. It shows that they were all born again believers.

You can go to lengths to justify your position, and use the Greek meaning, but it proves nothing. You can’t change what the verse says.

I will try to get to another one a little later.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Keeping Alert on Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:07 am

In James 1:12-16
Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the Crown of Life which the Lord has promised to them who love Him.
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts He any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.
Do not err, my beloved Brethren.


sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi Mark, I will give you the sheep parable. I didn’t look it up, I was going by memory and I shouldn’t do that when debating you.

In the verse in James, of special note is the phrase, ‘Do not err my beloved Brethren’. He is talking to believers, true believers. Your theory of who is saved and who isn’t doesn’t hold up against this.

You say, it shows that they were never saved. No, it doesn’t show that. It shows that they were all born again believers.

You can go to lengths to justify your position, and use the Greek meaning, but it proves nothing. You can’t change what the verse says.

I will try to get to another one a little later.

God bless


Hi SCB,

In this, I agree with you that the James passage talks about saved brethen. Nevertheless, while many people read this passage as a salvation issue, this passage says nothing about the salvation or lost of salvation of the soul at all.

Let me explain...

Remember that I mentioned about the Bema Seat of God/Christ... I think this is a great example of that...

You see in verse 12 - there is a mention of "crown of life"... these crowns are rewards or prizes mentioned many times all over the bible such as 1 Corinthians 9:17-18, Phil 3:14, 1 Cor 9:24, 2 Tim 4:8, 1 Cor 9:25, 1 Peter 5:4, etc. These passages link together at the Bema Seat of Christ

The context of James is this - and the surprise is this.... it has nothing to do with salvation of the soul at all

It is about Christians becoming respecters of persons. People had become partial in their attitude when it came to evangelistic outreach. When a person with gold ring and goodly apparal walked into their assembly, he was received with royal treatment (James 2:2-3). But a poor man was quickly put in this place "You have despised the poor" (James 2:6)

To say to to a starving, freezing man, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled" is sheer mockery, argues James. Faith only does not help this poor man! But if "ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what does it profit? Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:16-17)

This explains the difficult verse "what does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (James 2:14) Our natural reaction to James 2:14 is almost always to assume that James is questioning whether the man who has faith without works can be saved. But this is in fact a hasty interpretation. James is not raising the issue of salvation of the soul at all. He is not questioning whether we can be saved without works (or he would be opposing Paul) but whether our "faith alone" does anybody else any good. The "him" of James 2:14 is no doubt the same "poor man" of James 2:6. The destitute "brother or sister" of the following verse also confirms that the "him" of verse 14 was someone other than the person who has "faith only"

Try going back to read all the passages that support your idea that a person may lose his or her salvation in this light and perhaps you might come to a different conclusion about the fallability of the soul after receiving salvation...

Hope that helps :)

Love-in-CHrist,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:42 am

Where do I begin to address what you wrote KA? It has a number of errors in my opinion.

First, when we read an epistle by any apostle, it addresses a number of issues; this should go without saying, but in the light of some of the defenses that you and Mark make in support of once saved always saved, I think we need to establish that.

Crowns are rewards presented to overcomes after we leave this earthly tent. Sin will not be an issue then, it is an issue now, and it can be a very serious issue if left unchecked.

James is letting us know the very serious nature of sin and the damage that it can cause. So much so, that it can cause one to loose their salvation.

I think it is important for me to note that just because one may loose their salvation, it doesn’t mean it has to be a forever thing. When one comes to their senses with a repentant heart, the Lord is merciful and they can once again be saved and be right with God.

Also, the two apostles were not opposed to one another in their epistles. James is just saying that if you have faith, you will also have works that result from that faith. He is not promoting a works oriented salvation. His teaching about this has nothing to do with what he said about sin and death earlier.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:31 pm

Has much of the NAR teaching been absorbed into the evangelical churches? Yes, it has. It takes around 40 or so years for changes in theological thinking to become enmeshed into the "norm" of the theological understanding as time passes by.

However, this discussion has passed IMHO onto another topic which can be summarized with the following type of statement: -

"Unless we are prepared to die for what we say we believe, then we do not believe in what we say that we believe."

or: -

"Unless we are wholeheartedly prepared to demonstrate what we say we believe and should do, then we do not believe in what we say we believe and should do."

In Matthew 25 the judgement given in the Parable of the separation of the sheep from the Goats is based on the recorded righteous deeds of those the so called Saints, who call Jesus Lord, Lord.

The Sheep had a heart to do and express their love for others in the things that they did for others, without concern for the end game outcome while the Goats, on the other hand, only did those same things if they thought that the end game outcome was enhanced by those deeds.

Is the NAR theological understanding dangerous? It can be if it does not express the whole heart of God and does not demonstrate how the heart of God is expressed within the community in which we live.

Sadly, leaders have adopted the NAR ways of leadership without understanding the requirement of a leader to have a servant's heart and attitude within the leadership model that they desire to have. The danger is that the NAR ways can lead to leadership adopted models that are not GODLY, and also do not reflect the heart of God to their respective communities.

Sadly, in some denominations, the leadership models that the NAR model/theology preaches have been entrenched for many centenaries but without all of the giftings of the spirit being obvious to the extent or the required demonstrations within the NAR model.

It is just another variation of the "power" model which "men"/leaders rely on for their leadership, that eventually leads them astray into sin.

Shalom

PS: Congregations should be initially praying that their leadership teams will be continually drawn further into the loving embrace of God, and then begin to demonstrate their collective faith by daily thanking God and rejoicing in God's drawing of their leaders into His Loving Embrace. So often, congregations are praying for what they want to happen and not praying for the things that God wants for the leadership team over them and for themselves as well.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Keeping Alert on Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:27 pm

I think it is important for me to note that just because one may loose their salvation, it doesn’t mean it has to be a forever thing. When one comes to their senses with a repentant heart, the Lord is merciful and they can once again be saved and be right with God.


Hi SCB,

I entered this thread because of this similar point in which you mentioned about the wavering of our faith...

I have been working in Vietnam and China for 13 years now, and I can tell you the practical impossibility of having a perfect faith in these countries. They are steeped in tradition, their culture has religious undertones contrary to scripture, many have little education, they have hundreds of different dialects... being in the field, I feel this first hand... my opinion is this, if one may enter and be removed from the embrace of God because of what we do or not do, then our work in the byways and highways are all going to be largely futile...

I think of this issue of osas like this... is Adam Greater or Jesus greater?

By Adam one sin, all of mankind will die even if they do good...

By Jesus one perfect life, all of those who have been born again, will live even if they do wrong...

if we say that those in christ will fall if they do wrong then imho, Christ has lost to Satan because the damage caused by satan had more permanent effect then the salvation wrought by Jesus

but Praise be to God, there is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, whose Love nothing can separate us from, who has written our names in His palm, and the book of Life (not to written, and erased and written again, and perhaps erased again)
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:31 pm

One thing we have to watch and be aware of is our propensity to be radical in our observations about doctrine. We think it is either one way or the other way often times. And if it not this way, then we move to the extreme of it having to be completely the other way.

You mentioned that it was hard to have a perfect faith in Vietnam. It is hard everywhere, but I take your word for it that it is harder there. I think your simple analysis is pretty good and accurate about Adam and Jesus. People are not so simple. Thank God that He can handle anyone and everybody perfectly.

We can’t make everything fit into a perfect slot, but Jesus can. He knows when to fold them, and when to hold them, so to speak. He decides when it is time to let someone go into their own way with the hopes that they will return when they get to the bottom, or at the end of their rope. I would venture to say that most of the time they all come back, but I seriously doubt that 100 percent come back.

I came back, and I can say two things right now about my experience. One is in line with what you said about Him loving us. He would show me every now and then that He loved me, and I also knew it from when I was born again. The other thing for me was, although I came back by coming to my senses and also not having anywhere else to turn, it was very hard.

I began to read the bible for the first time in my life and it was like a miracle to find out what God was like. at the same time, the word now and then would make me feel like a complete and utter failure. I began reading in Genesis, and when I read about God destroying the people in the old world, I felt I was as bad as they were and I was afraid He might destroy me.

When I read about King Saul being lifted up in pride and loosing the Holy Spirit, I felt like I had done the exact same thing, and that the same fate awaited me - death. It was a roller coaster ride of emotions as I traveled through the word of God.

I also attended a 1st Assembly of God church with my wife and was getting pretty good teaching and preaching which helped balance things. Anyway, I could go on and on, but just to say the way back to Him for me was difficult. Did it have to be?

For me, yes, because that is how messed up I was. How self righteous I was, and I hated religion, but my second state had become worse than my first. I had a lot of fear and anxiety in my life which gradually became less and less. My depressions went from 3 weeks to 2 weeks to one week.

Then many of the truths that we have been discussing on this thread became known to me, and I kept feeling like I was starting all over again every time I come to understand one of these amazing truths. But I didn’t care about starting over again, because I was getting closer to Him and to knowing Him, so it didn’t matter. Also, I knew that all I had gone through was probably not for nought.

But all of my experiences don’t mean anything when explaining doctrine. At least not by itself. It is the word of God that we need to know and understand. If we are sincere in our quest to the answers, He will lead us to the truth.

I would like to believe that I am open to correction and I know that I have wrong many many times in the past. But the lord has had me on a journey that is leading me to the truth. I believe He has lead me to the truth, and that is Jesus Christ and Him crucified. My faith is there. So I live it out perfectly? No, but what an exciting life of faith it is.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not seeing a whole lot of abundant living as of yet. But I know that it is coming. How do I know it?
11 Cron 7:14 If My people, who are called by My Name, would humble themselves and pray, and seek My Face, and turn form their wicked ways, then would I hear from Heaven, and forgive their sins, and heal their land.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:10 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi Mark, I will give you the sheep parable. I didn’t look it up, I was going by memory and I shouldn’t do that when debating you.

In the verse in James, of special note is the phrase, ‘Do not err my beloved Brethren’. He is talking to believers, true believers. Your theory of who is saved and who isn’t doesn’t hold up against this.

You say, it shows that they were never saved. No, it doesn’t show that. It shows that they were all born again believers.

You can go to lengths to justify your position, and use the Greek meaning, but it proves nothing. You can’t change what the verse says.

I will try to get to another one a little later.

God bless


Letters are addressed to groups and churches, within which are those who are true and those who are not. Those who are not true may not be known yet.

James addresses the letter to his brothers. He could mean fellow Jews, or fellow Christians, either is just a likely in my opinion.

And for the record, it is God, not me, that says there are those in the church that seem saved by are not, and when they leave, it becomes known that they were not true. I'm simply repeating what I've read.

As for meanings in Greek, why not? Don't we want to know what God says?

And also for the record . . . this is not about justifying my opinion. I like to know what's true, and I like to share such truths with others. Whenever there comes I time I find out I've been mistaken, I verify, then embrace the "new" truth, and go back to those I've told my error to, to offer a correction, where possible. It's not always possible.

I have no problem with that, in fact, if I can find where I've been in error, I've gained, not lost. So many people think backwards. To lose is to win.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:15 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Where do I begin to address what you wrote KA? It has a number of errors in my opinion.

First, when we read an epistle by any apostle, it addresses a number of issues; this should go without saying, but in the light of some of the defenses that you and Mark make in support of once saved always saved, I think we need to establish that.

Crowns are rewards presented to overcomes after we leave this earthly tent. Sin will not be an issue then, it is an issue now, and it can be a very serious issue if left unchecked.

James is letting us know the very serious nature of sin and the damage that it can cause. So much so, that it can cause one to loose their salvation.

I think it is important for me to note that just because one may loose their salvation, it doesn’t mean it has to be a forever thing. When one comes to their senses with a repentant heart, the Lord is merciful and they can once again be saved and be right with God.

Also, the two apostles were not opposed to one another in their epistles. James is just saying that if you have faith, you will also have works that result from that faith. He is not promoting a works oriented salvation. His teaching about this has nothing to do with what he said about sin and death earlier.


Hi SCB,

Please explain to me how salvation is not a matter of my doing?

I mean, Jesus died to provide forgiveness, so He opens the door. But once that's been done I can go in and out, in and out, and whether I'm in or out when I die is up to me, so my salvation is my doing. Is that not what you are saying? If not, please explain how that is not so.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:28 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:One thing we have to watch and be aware of is our propensity to be radical in our observations about doctrine. We think it is either one way or the other way often times. And if it not this way, then we move to the extreme of it having to be completely the other way.


Hi SCB,

What does this mean exactly?

What is "radical doctrine"? Is it that one man in all of history was actually not just any man, but our Creator, and not only our Creator, but that He came to be brutalized and murdered by His creation, on behalf of His creation? Is it a "radical doctrine" that this one man, in all of history, having been murdered, and finding Himself among those who had died, returned back to this world, to life, to tell us that we can so the same thing. Radical doctrine, His victory over death can be transferred to us, we too have victory over death. Death is swallowed up in victory! Radical!

Personally, I prefer the steady certainty of Christ's sure salvation to the roller coaster of feelings an emotions as I sit in fear over what God might yet do to punish me. He who fears is not made perfect in love, because perfect love casts out all fear.

Which is better, the Word of God, or my experience?

Perfect love casts out all fear.

Do you believe?

Romans 5 teaches that faith in Jesus brings us into the grace in which we stand.

Therein is the abundant life.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:30 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Don’t get me wrong, I am not seeing a whole lot of abundant living as of yet. But I know that it is coming. How do I know it?
11 Cron 7:14 If My people, who are called by My Name, would humble themselves and pray, and seek My Face, and turn form their wicked ways, then would I hear from Heaven, and forgive their sins, and heal their land.


One thing to mention, this is part of God's covenant with Israel.

Just the same, Jesus said He came that we might have life, and that more abundantly.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:56 am

Romans 5 teaches that faith in Jesus brings us into the grace in which we stand.

Therein is the abundant life.


What is abundant life if not this?

RT
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:21 am

mark s wrote:Letters are addressed to groups and churches, within which are those who are true and those who are not. Those who are not true may not be known yet.

James addresses the letter to his brothers. He could mean fellow Jews, or fellow Christians, either is just a likely in my opinion.

And for the record, it is God, not me, that says there are those in the church that seem saved by are not, and when they leave, it becomes known that they were not true. I'm simply repeating what I've read.

As for meanings in Greek, why not? Don't we want to know what God says?


Letters or epistles in the bible are addressed to believers. Can they at times be in bad places spiritually? Yes, which is why many issues are addressed. The book of Hebrews for instance is written to believing Jews who are disillusioned by the type of persecution they are experiencing. They were in the minority in their country, and fellow citizens refused to buy from them or hire them. They were having trouble keeping their homes and such and some were considering returning to the law. We’ll leave there for now.

I agree that the new testament addresses those who are not really saved who think they are, and those who are led by Satan who act as Christians. When they mention ‘ministers of Satan’, they tell us that even the devil can appear as an angel of light.

I don’t or I should say, that I rarely go into the Greek meanings. I do like to hear about them however, and I agree that anything that brings better clarity to His word is a good thing. What I was saying in the case mentioned, was that it didn’t prove anything.

mark s wrote:Hi SCB,

Please explain to me how salvation is not a matter of my doing?

I mean, Jesus died to provide forgiveness, so He opens the door. But once that's been done I can go in and out, in and out, and whether I'm in or out when I die is up to me, so my salvation is my doing. Is that not what you are saying? If not, please explain how that is not so.


I mean that we are not saved by works, we are saved by grace through faith. The just shall live by faith. If works saves us, then work is no longer work, and grace is no longer grace.

That being said, we are responsible to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. You mention ‘our doing’. We can be willful at any time because we are free agents right? We submit to God of our own will. Will is very important in a Christian’s life, but it can not save you. The bible tells us so.

I cut grass for a man I will call ‘M’. He was in the leadership along with his wife in YWAM. This may be 30 years ago or so. His wife left him for another man in leadership. ‘M’ was broken by this, as many of us would be. He became very angry and bitter. God allowed him to select me to do his yard work, but it wasn’t until about a year or so afterwards that he told me about what happened to him.

‘M’ was an alcoholic, and he had walked away from God. I saw into his home one day and there were more liquor bottles than one could count readily on his counter. He had justified his anger and it is possible that he no longer believed. I believe that was his state. I remember him looking at me once as if he was feeling sorry for me that I believed everything that the bible said. I knew he was in a bad place then.

I left the grass business and months later my wife and I ran into ‘M’ at the grocery. He was carrying oxygen and using a walker. If memory serves me, he only had so much time left to live, and for the first time I saw a genuine smile from him. I believe he was saved when he died, but what a tragedy to live so many years away from God. Of course, in the light of eternity it can not compare.

I’ve heard other stories similar to this, but this one is a first hand account. Our will is very important because we decide who we are going to serve. We can not however, be righteous because we decide to do good works. We are righteous because we are in Christ and our faith is in Him and what He did.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:33 am

mark s wrote:
sacredcowbasher wrote:One thing we have to watch and be aware of is our propensity to be radical in our observations about doctrine. We think it is either one way or the other way often times. And if it not this way, then we move to the extreme of it having to be completely the other way.


Hi SCB,

What does this mean exactly?

What is "radical doctrine"? Is it that one man in all of history was actually not just any man, but our Creator, and not only our Creator, but that He came to be brutalized and murdered by His creation, on behalf of His creation? Is it a "radical doctrine" that this one man, in all of history, having been murdered, and finding Himself among those who had died, returned back to this world, to life, to tell us that we can so the same thing. Radical doctrine, His victory over death can be transferred to us, we too have victory over death. Death is swallowed up in victory! Radical!

Personally, I prefer the steady certainty of Christ's sure salvation to the roller coaster of feelings an emotions as I sit in fear over what God might yet do to punish me. He who fears is not made perfect in love, because perfect love casts out all fear.

Which is better, the Word of God, or my experience?

Perfect love casts out all fear.

Do you believe?

Romans 5 teaches that faith in Jesus brings us into the grace in which we stand.

Therein is the abundant life.

Much love!
Mark


I didn’t say anything about radical doctrine. I said we have to watch that we don’t get radical in our observations.

The abundant life I am speaking about in my personal life has to do with finances, and let me be specific cause I know if I am not you will jump all over it; I am not talking about being rich, just getting out of debt, paying the bills, and having a little left over.

As far as peace and joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit, I’m good. Or let me rephrase that so I’m not misunderstood; I got that.

You mentioned fearing things. Did I mention that I have fear in my life? If I did, I don’t remember doing so.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:51 am

mark s wrote:
sacredcowbasher wrote:Don’t get me wrong, I am not seeing a whole lot of abundant living as of yet. But I know that it is coming. How do I know it?
11 Cron 7:14 If My people, who are called by My Name, would humble themselves and pray, and seek My Face, and turn form their wicked ways, then would I hear from Heaven, and forgive their sins, and heal their land.


One thing to mention, this is part of God's covenant with Israel.

Just the same, Jesus said He came that we might have life, and that more abundantly.

Much love!
Mark


Why can’t you accept this verse for yourself? You need to beware that you don’t allow the letter to kill. It is the Holy Spirit that gives life. Sometimes we can overthink things or get so academic that we lose the simplicity of the truth.

You are aware that as the Lord dealt with Israel, He also deals with us. I’m not saying every single instance, but I am saying that many things in the old testament apply to us as well.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
Romans 5 teaches that faith in Jesus brings us into the grace in which we stand.

Therein is the abundant life.


What is abundant life if not this?

RT


Absolutely RT. What I am referring to are the promises of God which are many. When He says through the apostle, and through the Holy Spirit, He will do exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ask or think.

John says, and that you may prosper, even as your soul prospers.

Jesus said, whoever leaves mother of father, sister or brother, houses, lands for My sake, or the sake of the gospel. shall receive a hundred fold of these in this life, with persecutions; and in the life to come, eternal life.

Do you guys believe that abundant life includes every aspect of life?
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:06 am

Hi SCB,

Why not claim my inheritance in the Land of Israel? God promised an inheritance in the Land to His Covenant People. So there must be a parcel there that's mine, right?

Or was this something that applied then, at that time, and we get the benefit of seeing how God dealt with them.

Now, we don't need to pray towards the temple, we are the temple, and God lives in us.

Why would you dial long distance to speak to someone standing next to you?

The letter of the Law kills. Not the letter of Scripture in it's entirety.

This is misapplication.

That prayer fit the context of a material covenant of law and performance. It does not fit now. Does God promise to "heal the United States?" Or where ever you may be.

Your statement is that "many things in the Old Testament apply to us now." How do we know which?

Paul wrote of "rightly dividing the word of truth." Back to that Greek . . . the word he used was "make a straight cut". He was a tent maker. You have to cut the fabric right or your tent won't be right. And just the same, you have to be able to make correct divisions within Scripture.

As a simple example, why are we not all building boats? God told Noah to build an ark. So what God says to one He says to all, right? So . . . we need to get building, right?

Except that we recognize that this word was given to this man at this time. And from it, we learn about God. But we recognize that this was God's arrangement with Noah.

If your neighbor buys a car on credit, he signs a contract, drives the car home, and starts making payments. Does this obligate you make payments to that bank also? This is what it's like for the gentiles to endeavor to keep God's covenant with Israel, including the temple building and it's rituals and prayers.

Blessings and cursings, God's contract with Israel. Yet so many people think it governs their lives also, not realizing they have placed themselves under the law.

Much love!
mark
Last edited by mark s on Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: so many ridiculous typos!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:17 pm

Hi Mark, I’m pretty sure that his people will be with Him in the new Jerusalem, and that is located in Israel and what was suppose to be Israel originally. So it is part of our inheritance.

I think you know that I am not advocating anything near to keeping the law, and believing that much of the old testament can be mine has nothing to do with the law. Abraham is the father of our faith for example.

In Proverbs 3:5,6 it says, trust in the Lord with all of your hearts and lean not to your own understanding, acknowledge Him in all of your ways, and He will direct your path.

In Psalms we read about David praising the Lord with stringed instruments.

In many of the prophets books we read about prophecies which has not yet come to pass. We learn about things future much of which confirms the book of Revelation.

We also learn how God dealt with the nation of Israel, and today he deals with us in similar ways.

We learn much in every way by knowing the old testament. It was, as you said, written for our examples as well.

It is what the early church had and what the apostles read.

Jesus told His disciples that they were blessed to see the things which they saw, because the prophets saw it from a distance but never got to experience it.

As for the prayer having to do with the old covenant with Israel, I agree that it did do that, but it does more than that. It applies to us today as well.

You may not believe it, but when a Christian does wrong and sins, or has been under wrong doctrine which causes him to sin, he needs to turn from his wicked ways so that God would heal his land. His land, that is the repenter, is his life and all that pertains to his life. His physical body, his spiritual life, emotional, financial, etc.

God’s word and the Holy Spirit can work together to move the believer from a place of sin or wrong doctrine, to a place of correct doctrine.

When David says in Psalm 23, He leads men besides still waters, and makes me to lie down in green pastures ....
It is because He is our Shepherd. The church is full of error and it has caused many problems, some of which is wicked ways.

In the bible, water is symbolized with doctrine, whether it is bad, or good, or perfect. We read about being tossed about by winds of doctrine. I think it is in James where it states about - like a man being tossed by waves of the sea, a double minded man, unstable in all of his ways.

I mentioned the still waters in Psalm 23, which is a good place to be, and then you have John, as he looks at scenes in heaven, and he says, I saw a sea of glass. No wind at all which tells us about how perfect it will be. I don’t think it means that will be no wind, but that heaven is a perfect place.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:16 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi Mark, I’m pretty sure that his people will be with Him in the new Jerusalem, and that is located in Israel and what was suppose to be Israel originally. So it is part of our inheritance.


Numbers 26:54-56 (NASB)

54 To the larger group you shall increase their inheritance, and to the smaller group you shall diminish their inheritance; each shall be given their inheritance according to those who were numbered of them. 55 But the land shall be divided by lot. They shall receive their inheritance according to the names of the tribes of their fathers. 56 According to the selection by lot, their inheritance shall be divided between the larger and the smaller groups.”


According to this the inheritance is a plot of ground in Israel.

Daniel was told he would stand in this allotment at the end of the days. So the inherited land seems to be forever.

So them my question is, since the inheritance of Israel is real estate, is the same true for me?

I think you know that I am not advocating anything near to keeping the law, and believing that much of the old testament can be mine has nothing to do with the law.


In the things you say regarding the Old Testament, I would say the same myself, I think.

As for the prayer having to do with the old covenant with Israel, I agree that it did do that, but it does more than that. It applies to us today as well.

You may not believe it, but when a Christian does wrong and sins, or has been under wrong doctrine which causes him to sin, he needs to turn from his wicked ways so that God would heal his land. His land, that is the repenter, is his life and all that pertains to his life. His physical body, his spiritual life, emotional, financial, etc.


OK. So we're on the same page here, I have in mind a prayer prayed by King Solomon, that when the people turn from their sins, praying towards the newly constructed temple, that God would hear their prayers, forgive their sins, and return health and vibrancy to the land in which they live.

The way you are interpreting that prayer doesn't seem to me to have much to do with with it , and I wonder, why not just talk to God from the heart?

Now, not to be misunderstood, but when we adopt prayers and practices and doctrines that arise from the Covenant of Law given to Israel at Mount Horeb, we need to be careful about the ideas we are importing into our minds with these.

In this instance, there is a "poison pill" against grace. God's people praying, us, in your view, looking for God to "forgive sins". Why are you asking that? Is it because you believe you need forgiveness having sinned? Do you not believe the Scriptures, which say we are already dead, therefore the law has nothing to do with us, therefore there is now no condemnation, therefore we are sons and daughter, remaining forever, so that God may display to all of creation what a good God He is in how kind He is towards us, towards me! Deplorable me!

Isn't it better to rejoice continually in the most wonderful grace we receive by believing in Jesus?

And are you saying that difficulty only comes as a result of personal wickedness?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:50 am

I think I missed a question . . .

Do you guys believe that abundant life includes every aspect of life?


Yes I do.

Now. Define abundance. Materially? As under the Covenant of Law with Israel given at Mount Horeb? Or Spiritually, as we have every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ.

Are you asking, should we all be rich? No, I think I can categorically state that we should not all be rich. My propensity to self-destruct given too many liquid resources . . . well . . . 'nough said! Besides, God gave His principle through James, the poor in this world are those whom God has chosen to be rich in faith. So, is it better to have cash? Or faith?

Should we all be healthy? But I've learned such deep and enduring truths about God's power, His love for me, His personal attention to every little detail in my life. And the greatest of these have been in the most desperate struggles with my health, even my survival, no, I don't think I'd trade that for the world.

To me, abundant life is a life of absolute freedom, knowing that nothing can ever actually harm me, knowing that the end is glory, that all I will know from now and onward is love, how my kind and tender and caring Father endured MY shame, My guilt, the horror that I had made of my life.

Abundant life is knowing that while I'm liable to go off in any number of different and potentially destructive directions, my relentlessly loving Father pursues me, overtakes me, overwhelms me with His goodness and love, until my deepest wish is to be just like Him. And the Joy of it all is knowing, knowing, this is His will for me. My deep desire, in my most fervent prayer, as Jesus Himself were praying for me, and in fact He is, also happens to be my Father's stated will for me. To be just like Jesus. Wholly Sanctified. Conformed.

So I pray according to His will. And so praying, I know He hears me. And if He hears me, then I know I have what I've asked for.

Separated from God? Condemned? Needing to be forgiven? Unthinkable!

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:35 pm

Hi Mark, On that prayer in 11 Chron 7:14 If My people who are called by My Name, would humble themselves, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways, then would I hear from heaven, forgive their sins, and heal their land.;
To me it is a couple of things. One would be that it is a pattern of sorts which helps us to know about prayer, and it shows how God responds to us.

The other thing I saw in this prayer was how the Holy Spirit works in showing us our errant ways. The only way we can know our errant ways, or wicked ways, is that God reveals it to us from His word, or the Holy Spirit reveals to us. The Holy Spirit can reveal it in prayer or anywhere.

Jesus taught us to pray, Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed by thy Name. Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debt, as we forgive our debtors, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, for thine is the Kingdom, and the Glory, and the Power, now and forever, amen.

This prayer is a pattern of sorts as well. To me, the latter is better if Christians are living correctly, and the former is better if we are in a messed up place due to sin, or getting messed up in bad doctrine.

The old testament prayer is a good prayer for the church today because it is messed up.

You asked me to define abundance. Do you actually read me posts? I was very clear as to what abundant life is for today. Everything that the Christian needs comes to us as a result of what Jesus did at the cross. If you need a new house, you can be blessed with one through the cross, a car? Physical healing? Emotional healing? Do you want to be exulted? Humble yourself and in due season you will be, but make sure your faith is correctly placed.

No matter what we need, it all comes to us from the cross. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a good example. The gifts of the Spirit. We receive from God by faith in Him and what He did at the cross.

On going off in wrong directions; potentially destructive ones, it is great that God will do His best to get our attention and correct us, but He will not force Himself on us to accomplish this. If we are in His word and we pray, we have a good shot at hearing from Him. If we are in a church that teaches doctrines of men or doctrines of devils, it will not be as effective.

The way our Christians life works like it suppose to, is when we place our faith in Jesus Christ and what He accomplished at the cross. We then glorify Him and not ourselves, we humble ourselves because we acknowledge that He won the victory, we do not try to do it by placing our faith in something else.

Many of us will need to learn how to walk all over again, because it is foreign to us to trust Him for everything.

On the inherited land; To my understanding, Jesus will reign on earth as King for a thousand years. He will also rule with a rod of iron. The meek shall inherit the earth. We will rule with Him, and to my understanding, we will be in the New Jerusalem. We will have glorified bodies and will be like Him. We will be given rewards, and to my understanding, all of this will last a thousand years. What comes after this? I am not up to speed on this. I have heard some say that this is when the new heaven and the new earth will be. I have heard that when Jesus comes back with the Saints, that this will be the new heaven and the new earth.

Really, to me, I am going to be with Him and the Saints, so it doesn’t really matter exactly how it will be. I know it will be better than we can imagine. From what I understand, their will be regular humans living during that time as well, marrying, having children, etc., and I believe we will be rulers of sorts. The devil will be loosed near the end, and many people shall follow him. Jesus will destroy the armies, and the devil will be either destroyed or locked up permanently, I forget.

All of what God will give us, including what He has already given us, is way more than we could deserve; which is an understatement.

God is good, love you brother
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:03 am

OK, but the point is, the Israelites inherit something which we do not. There is a distinction.

Theirs is the land, ours is not.

Should we pretend Solomon's prayer was something it was not?
Is this "healing of the Land" to be freely and loosely interpreted at restoring my 20 year old car?

Now this is sounding as you are espousing a prosperity doctrine. Correctly placed faith in Jesus will get me that new car!

:grin:

It's hard to imagine that's what you are really saying!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:26 pm

mark s wrote:OK, but the point is, the Israelites inherit something which we do not. There is a distinction.

Theirs is the land, ours is not.

Should we pretend Solomon's prayer was something it was not?
Is this "healing of the Land" to be freely and loosely interpreted at restoring my 20 year old car?

Now this is sounding as you are espousing a prosperity doctrine. Correctly placed faith in Jesus will get me that new car!

:grin:

It's hard to imagine that's what you are really saying!

Much love!
Mark


Hi Mark, We inherit quite a bit. When you read what Jesus says to the churches in Rev 2 and 3, ‘To those who overcome ....’, it is amazing what He is providing for us.

As far as it being hard for you to imagine anything about what I have been saying, you have shown that you don’t have a problem imagining.

If I need a new car, and maybe some people need a new vehicle, I did purchase a new Hyundai Accent in 2004 because it was actually easier to do that then anything else; If a person needs a new car, and they are right with God, meaning that because their faith is correctly placed, Jesus is pleased with them, He will make that request happen, and He will bless them with a new car.

This goes for anything that we need. I am still waiting for healing in my body, but it hasn’t come yet. I’m not in control of when the Lord answers prayer, as should be obvious. James says, you have not because you ask not. He is here talking about wisdom, but it applies to everything concerning our lives. He also says, you ask amiss that you may consume it upon your own lust. So we have to be right with God, and if we are, we will not be asking for anything with the wrong spirit or motive.

God is good! Gooder than we deserve
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Ready1 on Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:59 pm

sacredcowbasher wrote: If a person needs a new car, and they are right with God, meaning that because their faith is correctly placed, Jesus is pleased with them, He will make that request happen, and He will bless them with a new car.

This goes for anything that we need.


I have often thought that this philosophy seems at odds with the following scriptures...



Mar 8:34 And calling near the crowd with His disciples, He said to them, Whoever will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.
Mar 8:35 For whoever will save his life shall lose it; but whoever shall lose his life for My sake and the gospel's, he shall save it.
Mar 8:36 For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?
Mar 8:37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?



Mar_10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:11 am

Hi Ready1, When Jesus told the disciples to go to the other side of the lake, they used a boat. It is possible that that boat did not belong to any of the disciples, maybe they sold their boats and followed Jesus, but I think not. Remember when they were waiting in the upper room for power to be endued from heaven upon them, Peter said, I am going fishing.

Others of them went with him. I think this is when they found Jesus on the shore and they had been in a boat, fishing all night. Of special note is that this wonderful meeting and fellowship with Jesus happened when Peter was doing something that he loved to do and was good at. They didn’t catch anything, and there was a lesson in that, but Jesus didn’t scold them for fishing.

Many people think that the believers of that time sold all of their possessions, but that is not accurate.

They sold things, items, and lands, that they really didn’t need, and laid it at the apostle’s feet. They would then distribute the money as they were lead by the Lord. Barnabus was one of them that sold some land, and this is where we read about Ananias and Saphira who lied to the Holy Spirit.

We know that they didn’t sell everything because the bible says that they broke bread and worshipped from house to house. This means that they owned houses, and some of them were used as gathering places of worship.

Denying ourselves is not asceticism. A definition is severe self-discipline and avoidance of all forms of indulgence, typically for religious reasons: acts of physical asceticism.

That is not saying that God may not lead you to give up something, but it has to be the Lord, or Holy Spirit which does this and not ourselves. If the Lord tells you to give up your car or to never buy a new car, then you should obey, of course.

He knows what we have need of even before we ask. He does want us to ask Him for whatever we need. The bible says, If your earthly father, being evil, knows how to give good things to them that ask, how much more shall you heavenly father give good things to you. And one gospel says, give you the Holy Spirit.

So God is not opposed to us having good things. He is opposed to those things having us. If we reckon ourselves to be dead, but alive to Christ, then nothing that He gives us will come between our right standing with Him and in Him. He also said that He would give us the desires of our heart. This would be mature believers who are living right; ie: their faith in Christ and Him crucified.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:28 am

Also concerning denying ourselves, taking up our cross, and following Him, has a lot to do with our understanding that we can not live out this born again life by self effort.

When we deny ourselves, in part we are saying, ‘I know that I can’t do any of this Lord, I can’t be good, I can’t be holy, and I can’t do Your will, with my faith in anything other than You and what You did at the cross’,

If my faith is in my ability, I am not denying myself. If it is in my Christian disciplines such as reading the word, or prayer, or fasting, I am not denying myself.

When my faith is in Jesus Christ and what He accomplished on the cross, I am denying myself, and I am accepting the one way which God provided whereby men might be saved. Jesus is glorified in my life, and the Holy Spirit has full power over my life to work His work. I am not saying that I live a perfect life by no means, but I will come into God’s good, and acceptable, and perfect will for my life.

God is good!
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:04 pm

Hi Sonbeam,

I'm sorry, I'm right with God because I believed that Jesus is my rightful master, and that He resurrected from death to life.

I may forget about God's promise, and have a rotten day, but that in no wise affects whether I am right with God. That is through Jesus alone. Try to add anything to it - anything - including this notion that we be "right with God" then "not right with God", based on our thoughts or behaviors - or this notion that we take our faith off of Christ and onto something else - and Christ was crucified for Nothing

The whole problem with the first covenant was that it relied on what we do. We fail. Period.

The new covenant is based on better promises. Not what we do. What Jesus did. Period.

Because if it relies on me, I will fail. That was the whole problem with the first covenant. We don't do it right. So Jesus did.

Anything else in not the Gospel.

If God forgave all your sins already, if you are dead to the law - that is, the law no longer governs you, then how in the world could you possibly do anything to defeat that?

How can you get arrested for speeding if there is no law against speeding? And if all previous and future speeding was dismissed? Who is going to charge you with a crime?

You say, if you put your trust in something besides Jesus.

God says you are a new creation created in righteousness and holiness.

If you sin, if you "put your trust in something besides Jesus", which, I believe, would be to "miss the target", that is, sin, is that something that your new creation does? or the old creation? If the new creation, well, that doesn't say too much for "created in God's likeness in righteousness and holiness of truth". If the old creation, well, it's already been judged, condemned, executed, and the body will be replaced.

I am right with God having chosen to believe in Jesus' lordship and resurrection. I am born again, God's child, perfect and holy, just like He is. I share His nature.

My mission? Get this into my life. Live the man He's made me to be.

But on the days I fail at that, I'm still right with God. And my car is still 20 years old. God never promised to give me money, or a new car, or good health. I don't have any of these. I suppose my faith must be lacking. Although I believe without question that Jesus is enough.

I truly hope you give serious thought to what it means if you have to add anything to what Jesus did, including "receiving it over and over", Jesus died once for all. And if you think that it only covers up to now, or only some sins, then He has to die again. Because we've continued to sin. He's have to die over and over and over. Or all or our sins are gone. These are your only two options.

But He only died once, because once is all it took.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:22 am

I am so grateful for the post, Mark......and it's message is one that has been oft repeated here on FP. I know, because I finally heard it some time maybe a year or two ago, taught and preached here on FP......and it changed my life once I listened to my wise brothers and sisters here.

I was full of judgment and condemnation for myself and everyone around me before I heard the true gospel message. After I did, I focused my eyes on Jesus, and took them off me and everyone else just long enough to fall in love and get some peace of mind. I dont have to be perfect and I can relax and let God do the work. I just worship Him, pray to Him, dont have to get either right.....He accepts me and loves me as I am, where I am......and He can work with it (and indeed does).
His love never goes away, even when I am into all my fleshly bad behavior (fussing too much is a big one for me, because I get so peeved with people sometimes!!!). I commit this same sin over and over and yet, I am still seeing the Lord working in my life and moving to restore me and help sanctify me.....nomatter what..... I am His...and He is mine.......(sounds like a covenant like marriage, doesn't it???)....His covenant for me....it was done....it is done.....and now I just have to continue to grow in Him.......and help those around me know Christ's blessings and sacrifice and gift to us on the cross....
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:15 am

GodsStudent said:
His love never goes away, even when I am into all my fleshly bad behavior (fussing too much is a big one for me, because I get so peeved with people sometimes!!!). I commit this same sin over and over and yet, I am still seeing the Lord working in my life and moving to restore me and help sanctify me.....nomatter what..... I am His...and He is mine....


This is beautiful GS, I think especially the part where you recognize that God is working in your life despite your weakness and proclivity toward certain sins. You recognize them as wrong and you confess that to Him and know that you have been forgiven.

Now a week or so ago Jay said the following in response to Mark's post:

"Unless we are wholeheartedly prepared to demonstrate what we say we believe and should do, then we do not believe in what we say we believe and should do."

In Matthew 25 the judgement given in the Parable of the separation of the sheep from the Goats is based on the recorded righteous deeds of those the so called Saints, who call Jesus Lord, Lord.


Jay looks at what Mark said and it seems to me that he presumes that in Mark's view this must be the logical conclusion. But I don't think this is the case. At least from where I sit, I see that it isn't about being "wholeheartedly prepared" to do what we say we believe that is the benchmark of true faith, though that certainly is a good thing. I think the real benchmark of true faith is that God's work in us is evidenced in what we do and say, just as GS put it. 2 Peter says it also, as long as we are growing in the divine nature of Christ, we can be assured that we are members of the household of faith. If we are growing, no matter how slowly or how small that growth is, then we do believe in what we say we believe, we are His. James too, "faith without works is dead". The evidence of our faith is the fruit of the spirit produced in our works, in our lives. If there is no evidence then how can there be faith?

I think the term "wholeheartedly prepared" is the wrong way to look at it. It puts the onus on my attitude about my faith, that I must have this attitude at all times and if I don't then my faith cannot be real. Yes my attitude does impact my faith, but it is not what drives my faith, the Holy Spirit works in me to change me, to produce His work in and through me, overcoming my bad attitudes through conviction and thereby producing His fruit in my conduct as I respond to that conviction through repentance. As I nourish my faith with Christ likeness, with the knowledge of who Christ is and what He has done for me, by spending time with Him in His word and in prayer and in fellowship with other believers. That is the food we feed ourselves, that He has provided for us, that is our part in faith, we take the provision and nourish ourselves with it, but He produces the fruit, He provides the increase.

Putting on Christ, donning the armor; whether you feel that it is a daily happening or a one time event, to me it will still produce growth in one's life. It is the growth that is important to demonstrate one's belief. It is not up to me to produce the growth, the growth will be a natural byproduct of the new man who is eating the proper food. Whether you eat the food daily or only sporadically. The food will have it's effect, those who regularly feast on the true knowledge of Christ will likely show more growth, while those who eat less often will show less growth, and the more one grows the more they realize the benefit of the spiritual food, and the more they will want to eat of it.

It is not my attitude about demonstrating my faith, it is the fruit that is produced by my faith that demonstrates that I am a true believer.

At GS said so well:
I was full of judgment and condemnation for myself and everyone around me before I heard the true gospel message. After I did, I focused my eyes on Jesus, and took them off me and everyone else just long enough to fall in love and get some peace of mind. I dont have to be perfect and I can relax and let God do the work. I just worship Him, pray to Him, dont have to get either right.....He accepts me and loves me as I am, where I am......and He can work with it (and indeed does).



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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:07 am

This thread is starting to become overwhelming to me with the sheer volume of deep and meaningful writing, both in posts I agree with, and in posts I disagree with, I am so happy to be a part of this group!

:spin:

All of you amaze me!

Much love!
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:15 am

James . . . can that faith save?

James defines two kinds of faith, one is a belief in what is true but that does not have any effect. Even the demons believe there is one God, and it horrifies them. But it doesn't change them.

That is the kind of faith that says to the man, be warm . . . somehow.

But there is the other faith, the saving faith, the living faith. It changes us. Maybe not so much that someone would notice for a while. But it does. It makes us do thinks. Like give the man a coat, and a meal.

Paul says that we are justified by faith, James that we are justified by works. But as has been correctly pointed out, this is within a context, and in James, that context is how we act towards others.

Jesus put the same idea out there in the sermon on the mount, don't just love those who love you, love everyone equally like your heavenly father does.

If we're not acting in love, do we truly share God's nature?

And how can someone tell? Only by what we do. Rahab tied a scarlet thread, the act of faith, and because the IDF saw her act, she was allowed to live. She was justified before man by her works. But justified before God by her faith.

She believed God. And because her belief was real, she acted. And because she acted, they knew.

Much love!
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:26 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:GodsStudent said:
His love never goes away, even when I am into all my fleshly bad behavior (fussing too much is a big one for me, because I get so peeved with people sometimes!!!). I commit this same sin over and over and yet, I am still seeing the Lord working in my life and moving to restore me and help sanctify me.....no matter what..... I am His...and He is mine....


This is beautiful GS, I think especially the part where you recognize that God is working in your life despite your weakness and proclivity toward certain sins. You recognize them as wrong and you confess that to Him and know that you have been forgiven.

Now a week or so ago Jay said the following in response to Mark's post:

"Unless we are wholeheartedly prepared to demonstrate what we say we believe and should do, then we do not believe in what we say we believe and should do."

In Matthew 25 the judgement given in the Parable of the separation of the sheep from the Goats is based on the recorded righteous deeds of those the so called Saints, who call Jesus Lord, Lord.


Let us compare the above two statements concerning our attitude towards God,

GS said, “no matter what, I am His and He is mine” and I said, “Unless we are wholeheartedly prepared,.” Both are essentially making the same statement concerning our respective commitment to Christ.

In the post where I had made the above statement, I had gone back to the OP concerning the NAR model on leadership. I had addressed how new “theological” thought is absorbed over a period of around 40 years, i.e. within about one descendant generation, into the “main stream theological understanding” as it adds to the “norm” but not necessarily for our own “good.”

I also spoke about how the NAR leadership model was no different to previous leadership models that had operated in the past within churches and how those models can and have led the leadership team(s) into sin. The NAR leadership model is primarily based on holding power over others just as has been practiced in other leadership models before it.

From memory, there is a verse in scripture that Jesus said which went something like this, “Do as they tell you but not as they do.” concerning the leadership within the Israelite religious practices. On the one hand Jesus commended them for giving good instruction, while at the same time condemning them, for not doing what they taught. The religious leadership of His day worked on the outside of the cup to keep it clean while inside the cup, it was filthy.

In Luke 14 27 Jesus said the following: - Luke 14:27:- “And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.” It is difficult to carry or bear a cross unless you are fully committed to that task.

Further on, He uses the analogy of Salt, if Salt loses it ability to be salt, then it is no longer fit for its purpose and is thrown away.

Was Christ being harsh when He said these things? No, he was not.

But RT then goes on to say: -
Jay looks at what Mark said, and it seems to me that he presumes that in Mark's view this must be the logical conclusion. But I don't think this is the case. At least from where I sit, I see that it isn't about being "wholeheartedly prepared" to do what we say we believe that is the benchmark of true faith, though that certainly is a good thing. I think the real benchmark of true faith is that God's work in us is evidenced in what we do and say, just as GS put it.
2 Peter says it also, as long as we are growing in the divine nature of Christ, we can be assured that we are members of the household of faith. If we are growing, no matter how slowly or how small that growth is, then we do believe in what we say we believe, we are His. James too, "faith without works is dead". The evidence of our faith is the fruit of the spirit produced in our works, in our lives. If there is no evidence, then how can there be faith?


RT then goes on, it seems to me, to suggest that what I had said was too harsh and tries to soften it with a prescriptive process, when she says: -
I think the term "wholeheartedly prepared" is the wrong way to look at it. It puts the onus on my attitude about my faith, that I must have this attitude, at all times, and if I don't then my faith cannot be real. Yes, my attitude does impact my faith, but it is not what drives my faith, the Holy Spirit works in me to change me, to produce His work in and through me, overcoming my bad attitudes through conviction and thereby producing His fruit in my conduct as I respond to that conviction through repentance. As I nourish my faith with Christ likeness, with the knowledge of who Christ is and what He has done for me, by spending time with Him in His word and in prayer and in fellowship with other believers. That is the food we feed ourselves, that He has provided for us, that is our part in faith, [b]we take the provision and nourish ourselves with it, but He produces the fruit, He provides the increase.


Notice the portion above which I have bolded, "we take the provision and nourish ourselves." Unless we are whole heartedly committed to taking the provision and nourishing ourselves, then the increase in our fruit is not there because in our hearts we are blocking it. In other words, we must be whole hearted in working with God and that requires us to be making the right choices and that we must be prepared to follow through with those right choices. Certainly, God helps us along the way, but He does not invalidate our personhood by overriding our choices, but He also does not give up on us either and continues to draw us into His Loving Embrace waiting for us to again respond to His love.

RT also went on to say: -
It is not my attitude about demonstrating my faith, it is the fruit that is produced by my faith that demonstrates that I am a true believer.
Which is true to a point, but our attitude dictates what fruit is produced.

When I write a post, I do not put in all the “prescriptive” steps that others look for in a post and will agree with. I tend to pare it back to the bare essentials to make my point.

In this thread the OP’s heading was: “Will NAR converge with evangelical churches?”, but the conversation has digressed from that discussion point to focus on “salvation” and the processes towards that outcome.

Years ago, i.e. 45 + years, when there was a “wave” of the HS flowing through churches, some churches taught that unless you fell to the floor, then you had not received a touch from the spirit. Others taught that unless you spoke in tongues that you had not received Salvation. Even back then, I advised people, who asked me what I thought, to go back to the word to search out God’s truth for themselves.

It is no different today, however, be careful in where you end up with respect to God’s truth. Do not accept a corrupt form of God’s "truth" no matter where it comes from, even if it comes from within yourself.

In my post above I finished with the following: -

PS: Congregations should be initially praying that their leadership teams will be continually drawn further into the loving embrace of God, and then begin to demonstrate their collective faith by daily thanking God and rejoicing in God's drawing of their leaders into His Loving Embrace. So often, congregations are praying for what they want to happen and not praying for the things that God wants for the leadership team over them and for themselves as well.


Shalom

PS: - Has this been the gist of this thread, what people believe is “God’s Truth.”
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:00 pm

I don't know about anyone else, but I waver from day to day.

Life is hard, I get discouraged, I get frustrated, I become impatient. And I go downhill from there. Or I become _______. You all know, it happens to all of us at some time.

And here's an ugly truth.

I don't always want what God wants. Or at least, my flesh doesn't, and I forget that it's just my flesh and go along. I become deceived.

Wholeheartedly prepared? What does that mean? I'm a drowning man clinging to a life preserver.

But that's only in one sense.

Because in another sense, I'm righteous and holy. Blameless, faultless, holy. My heart forever completely towards He Who created me. This is in my new man.

Much love!
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:04 pm

I'd like to add that prayers for people to be drawn into God's loving embrace are beautiful, but let's remember that God invites us to pray to Him, to ask Him for literally anything. Casting all of your cares upon Him, for He cares for you. Be anxious over nothing but in everything make your request known to God. And so on.

We can literally talk with our Father about anything on our minds, and ask Him for anything that we need or want, and leave it to Him to decide what is good for us.

Much love!
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:40 am

mark s wrote:I'd like to add that prayers for people to be drawn into God's loving embrace are beautiful, but let's remember that God invites us to pray to Him, to ask Him for literally anything. Casting all of your cares upon Him, for He cares for you. Be anxious over nothing but in everything make your request known to God. And so on.

We can literally talk with our Father about anything on our minds, and ask Him for anything that we need or want, and leave it to Him to decide what is good for us.

Much love!
mark


I totally agree Mark, and Jay, I may not have comprehended all of your writings; it is late and even rereading some of it, I am not sure I followed you well. So my comment may not have anything to do with what you said, but I want to say something about love.

In describing God succinctly, the apostle John said, ‘God is love’. Of all the words he could have chosen to describe God, he chose ‘love’. The apostle Paul, in 1 Cor.14 said, ‘And these three remain, faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love’. John also said, ‘I leave with a new commandment, which is not new, that you love one another’.

We know that love is how men shall know that we are His disciples; because of the love we have for one another. But in living an overcoming life, a victorious life, over sin and self, love is not enough. Not to say that correct doctrine alone is the answer; my wife and I have been in churches that had a lot of love, and we learned a lot about love being in that church. We both grew up in dysfunctional families, so we needed that, and we understand why God led us to that church.

We can’t do without love, especially since it is 'the greatest of these’, but we need all three. When it comes to living our Christian life, they are all important, and they have all been part of our Christian lives. There is one of these that we have been getting wrong for 19 or 20 centuries; ever since about the time Polycarp passed away. If I remember right, Polycarp was a disciple of one who knew the apostle John personally. This is about the time the church apostatized.

At the time of the Reformation, Martin Luther received the revelation that the Just shall live by faith, and light came back into the world.

The bible says that they overcame by the Blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony, and they love not their lives unto the death. It also says that, ‘and this is their victory, even their faith’.

How does a Christian live a life pleasing to God? By faith; and I know everyone here agrees, but what I have been saying in this thread is that it matters where our faith is placed.

Many Christians will say, O, the cross, we know all about that, you need to get past all of that. Not so fast. I haven’t run into that here, but many think that way. It sounds elementary to say that our faith should be place in Jesus Christ and Him crucified, but it not that simple.

What most of us do is to try to live out our walk, our Christian life, by self effort. We say we have to do our part. There is no part other than to believe Who Jesus is, and what Jesus did. It is faith plus nothing. When our faith is right, everything else will line up. The Holy Spirit will have full access to work as He will in and through us. He will watch after His work.

I won’t go into the ill effects of what happens when we do place our faith wrongly, but for those who haven’t read the thread through, it won’t take that much effort, since I said it so many times - ha ha, to find it. Spiritual laws go into effect and it is a serious thing.

In Jude, he said, ‘the faith that was once delivered to the Saints’.

God is good
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:55 am

We have completely different ideas on what happens when we believe.

If you were to look at my thread The Gospel, this will summarize my understanding.

Much love!
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:24 pm

sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi Ready1, When Jesus told the disciples to go to the other side of the lake, they used a boat. It is possible that that boat did not belong to any of the disciples, maybe they sold their boats and followed Jesus, but I think not. Remember when they were waiting in the upper room for power to be endued from heaven upon them, Peter said, I am going fishing.


Hi SCB,

A few thoughts on this . . .

Boats seem to have been owned, and also borrowed. James and John and Peter and Andrew had their fleet of fishing boats.

But when Jesus walked across the sea of Galilee, those who went looking for him took some other boats that others had come there in.

But regardless, this is descriptive and not prescriptive, so I feel we should read it that way.

Also, I believe they all did in fact wait in the upper room, and they did receive power. As a separate matter, Jesus had told them to meet Him in Galilee, where the disciples had gone. Apparently while they were waiting they went fishing.

Many people think that the believers of that time sold all of their possessions, but that is not accurate.


I'm not sure who it is that thinks that, but I don't.

They sold things, items, and lands, that they really didn’t need, and laid it at the apostle’s feet. They would then distribute the money as they were lead by the Lord. Barnabus was one of them that sold some land, and this is where we read about Ananias and Saphira who lied to the Holy Spirit.


Do you think there was no sacrificial giving?

We know that they didn’t sell everything because the bible says that they broke bread and worshiped from house to house. This means that they owned houses, and some of them were used as gathering places of worship.


It's actually possible that the house met in were those that hadn't sold yet. It is equally possible that these were communal properties. They may have been houses owned by unbelievers, but lived in by believers. There are a number of possibilities, and if the Bible doesn't specify, we need to be careful with the ideas we bring to the table.

Now, I agree with you, I don't think all the early disciples actually sold and gave away everything they owned. But just the same, the fact that they met in a house does not mean that house was not then sold to serve the needs of the people, or was even owned by those people.

Leo Tolstoy, in "Walk in the Light while there is Light", admittedly fiction, describes an early Christian society where the bulk of the resources came from rich newbies, and those resources supplemented what they were able to provide in their communal living.

I mention this because we need to be careful in how we draw our conclusions.

Denying ourselves is not asceticism. A definition is severe self-discipline and avoidance of all forms of indulgence, typically for religious reasons: acts of physical asceticism.


Denying ourselves for the sake of self-denial, as a means to improve ourselves, is, to me, not the way. God says it doesn't help. Colossians 2, end of chapter.

That is not saying that God may not lead you to give up something, but it has to be the Lord, or Holy Spirit which does this and not ourselves. If the Lord tells you to give up your car or to never buy a new car, then you should obey, of course.


I'd like to make mention that as God conforms us to Jesus' likeness, our desires are his desires, and in our liberty as His children, we can have our heart's desires, as they come from Him.

Just the same, we remain yielded to God so we can make sure our desires really are the same as His.

But when I see my brother or sister in need, and I have the means to provide for them, then I'm simply acting out my Christian love to sacrifice from what I have to provide for what they need. I don't need to feel some direct revelation from God before I give something away.

I can do what I want knowing that God made me holy. The trick is not doing what the flesh wants.

He knows what we have need of even before we ask. He does want us to ask Him for whatever we need. The bible says, If your earthly father, being evil, knows how to give good things to them that ask, how much more shall you heavenly father give good things to you. And one gospel says, give you the Holy Spirit.


And in James God says that there are things we don't have because we haven't asked. So let's get to asking! :grin:

So God is not opposed to us having good things. He is opposed to those things having us. If we reckon ourselves to be dead, but alive to Christ, then nothing that He gives us will come between our right standing with Him and in Him. He also said that He would give us the desires of our heart. This would be mature believers who are living right; ie: their faith in Christ and Him crucified.


This is where we part ways. Nothing can ever change my justification in Jesus Christ. Jesus is the propitiatory sacrifice, meaning that His death was fully accepted as complete payment for my debt. I will forever remain in right standing with God, since Jesus' death is an accomplished fact, since I'm reborn now God's kid, and since God has determined that these being done, now nothing can ever separate me from God, from His love, His amazing and wonderful love for me.

Even if I forget today that I am dead to sin, to the law, to the world, to the flesh, even if I lose my focus, make a mess of the day, it doesn't make these facts less true, and it doesn't change the fact that I am justified in Christ alone, and my "right standing" doesn't change.

I may waver, but He never does.

Either my justification is from me doing well as a Christian, "right faith", "mature", correctly reckoning myself dead, whatever you want to say, to add, to do, If you add anything at all, Jesus died in vain. No meaning to His death at all.

Because Jesus' death was to rescue us from failing in all the ways you've cataloged. Not to simply provide yet one more opportunity to fail.

Much love!
Mark
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:45 pm

Jay Ross, per your July 18th post.

I think I get what you are saying. I don't completely disagree with you. As human beings we have free will, that free will doesn't go away when we come to faith in Christ. The Holy Spirit will not override free will. If our "heart" is in the wrong place and we are not nourishing our faith then yes, we will suffer as a result, our faith may not produce the fruits of the Spirit or the work of God in our lives as a result. So yes, in that sense I can agree with what you say about our attitude having an effect on the fruits of our faith, no doubt about that.

However I think and believe that when one has come to true faith in Christ, that even when our "attitude" is not "wholehearted" and we slack off in nourishing our faith, that God in His infinite love will do all He can to change that in us, by His Holy Spirit, through conviction, through suffering the consequences of our sin, through the wise council of others and yes even through His chastisement and discipline. He will always seek to draw us back to Himself until we adjust our attitude. Even when we fall away, Jesus is still at work to draw us back, He never leaves us. I don't believe that we lose our salvation, I firmly believe that what He sets out to do, He will accomplish, we are always His children just as my own flesh and blood children will always belong to me, even when they screw up royally I will always seek to restore our relationship when it has suffered. I can't do the kind of work God can or the Holy Spirit can, I may not always be successful in reconciliation. But I know that God is and He will complete the work He began in me. If I am justified, I will be sanctified, however slowly or quickly that happens at any given time along life's journey and I will be glorified. I think that's what GS meant when she said "no matter what". (She can correct me if I am wrong). God doesn't ever turn His back on us, even when we fail Him. Some may barely stumble along their journey of faith, others may stumble often. Some may even stray from the path for a while. But like the prodigal son, God will bring about circumstances, in his case a famine in the land, to draw them back onto the path. With each failure comes lessons learned, and a return to the path, and with each step forward growth results. Even though for some that can take a much longer time than for others.

Scripture tells us that we can know other believers by their fruits. It doesn't, however, give us permission to condemn those who don't bear the fruits of faith.That job is God's alone. Our job is to love them and show them a better way. When one we believe to be a brother or sister in faith stumbles, we don't stand by pointing fingers, passing by on the other side, we stop and give them a hand up, encourage them to repent and turn back to following Christ. We can never know for certain who among us is truly saved and who isn't, because we look at outward appearance, but God knows the heart. Sometimes especially in young believers fruit is slow in coming, they have to begin with milk and learn to walk, the seed of faith is just sprouting in their lives. This is where we as more mature believers can come alongside, with healthy meals to feed them and to carry them through the testing of their faith, teaching them to walk and endure. Personally I think this is where we as the church have failed- in discipleship. In passing the torch, and is one of the primary reasons that the teachings of the NAR are finding their way into mainstream evangelical churches and events. Yes we can identify the bad fruit growing on a so called "good tree". When that happens we need to call it what it is, reach out in love for correction and when one refuses to be corrected, we walk away and let God do the correcting in His own time and own way.

I also want to add, that for me, as I move from glory to glory in life, from those times when I see God's work in and through me, I grow in my longing and desire for more. Like the newborn babe, when they get a taste for solid food, they lose the desire for milk alone, and they want to taste of more of those tasty foods. Or like the toddler when they take their first steps, they don't go back to crawling, they want to explore their world and step out of their limited range to learn and grow in their understanding of their relationship with their environment. Experiencing the realities of God at work in my life has nurtured in me a desire to continue on that path. It confronts me every time I grow discouraged. It encourages me to stand firm when hard times come.

Oh the glories of God, He is so amazing, His word is truly food for abundant living. I only wish that every believer and non believer out there could fully grasp the greatness and joy of knowing Him and knowing that He in turn knows us so intimately and loves us beyond compare.

I am so grateful and honored to share in this discussion with you all, your passion for God and His word is abundantly clear. It is such a welcome joy to fellowship here with you!

RT
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:07 pm

HI RT,

I happen to think that was all very well said!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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mark s
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:34 pm

mark s wrote:I don't know about anyone else, but I waver from day to day.

Life is hard, I get discouraged, I get frustrated, I become impatient. And I go downhill from there. Or I become _______. You all know, it happens to all of us at some time.

And here's an ugly truth.

I don't always want what God wants. Or at least, my flesh doesn't, and I forget that it's just my flesh and go along. I become deceived.

Wholeheartedly prepared? What does that mean? I'm a drowning man clinging to a life preserver.

But that's only in one sense.

Because in another sense, I'm righteous and holy. Blameless, faultless, holy. My heart forever completely towards He Who created me. This is in my new man.

Much love!
mark


Thank God for those willing to tell the ugly truth.
You know, .....a lot of you all know......that I am having all this physical pain lately. I am not talking stubbed toe....I am talking have been run over by a mack truck.

I shared privately in PM with a dear sister here on FP about the timing of some of the messages you all share with me, both in the open forum and in private. You encourage, and sometimes you write the stuff I need the night before I get up and need it most....(which has happened so many times and I know God inspires the willing here, so I give him the praise for meeting my needs and you all the thanks for your willingness and love of your sister).

I digress.

What I shared privately with this sister was that I was struggling with how the Lord could allow so much suffering to go on with me. Honestly, I have been thinking about ending it all sometimes.....(dont waste your time worrying about this, all my doctors know and tell me they can see why I would keep going back to these thoughts).

Anyway, seriously....I have been really struggling lately.....really struggling. It was such a comedy of errors, getting the right diagnosis...and the entire time I got worse and worse and dont even ask doctors for pain meds now.....they write your name in a special book and blank faces emerge from out of nowhere and the conversation goes flat. Then comes my personality, which says I just refuse to live like this in this much pain for ....and I put a time on it.....and the vicious cycle in my head and faith begins.


Today I got the steroid shots in the bone...and I've been taking the oral.....and for the first time I can see some relief coming my way. It's going to take a long time to heal as I have so many muscle groups involved, and muscles hurt in ways that are unreal.....plus the bone is still sick.

and we have my testimony, which is absolutely sincere. These events weren't about me and alas, we are seeing my family stop all the crazy stuff they do and finally gel and get around me and all of us and help.....So, my daughter and husband are growing in ways they needed to grow as strong Lisa is broken and on the floor.

Here's my point.....today I feel and felt a LOT OF SHAME......where the Lord is concerned. I have done what we all do....I doubted the Lord and then when I got a chance to be really objective.....(some relief and the beginnings of a recovery taking place for me, and relief for pain can be anticipated).......I realized that I have been beating up on the Lord now for a while...and I know better..... I mean, how many times does He have to come through for me for me to stop doing that and just have faith nomatter what?

I really do have a lot of shame. I am so glad the story of the prodigal son is in scripture.....that one's for me.....
Oh, and have I been humbled due to the truth....my, my, my.

The gospel message is so simple and I am so complicated......
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:15 pm

Lisa, it is in our weakness that God is able to be Glorified through our dependence on Him. When we are strong and independent God does not get a look in or much in the way of Glory through the witness of our lives.

I really believed that your statement of faith, "no matter what, I am His and He is mine," said it all about who you are in God, and no matter what your circumstances are, your focus has always been to have a lasting relationship with God forever.

I have not prayed for healing for you as you know. I have not changed my prayer for you as you know. It is still the same prayer that I have shared with you/reminded you of over the last couple of years. That I am thanking the Lord that He has heard my initial prayer for you and your family; that you and your family would be included in those whom He will draw to Himself, and from your testimony I know that He is still actively working towards that end. It is a prayer of thanks giving bounded by my faith that God is working in your lives for the betterment of all of your family and of course you.

David said it best in Psalm 23:4-6
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil;
For You are with me;
Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

5 You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;
You anoint my head with oil;
My cup runs over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
All the days of my life;
And I will dwell in the house of the Lord Forever.


The above is written with God's tears for you streaming down my face as He expresses Hi love for you through the tears that are wett5ing my face at this moment. He is sharig in your pain, with you, even if you cannot sense it, at this very moment. He is there for you and He will honor all of the promises He has given to you, both in His word and personally.

May the Lord keep you safe within His loving embrace of acceptance of who you are in Him.
May the Lords face continue to shine upon you and give you rest and peace,
Amen

Shalom
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