Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

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Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu May 24, 2018 4:02 pm

Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? - Holly

Don Veinot and Ron Henzel, of Midwest Christian Outreach, invited me to join them on their “Unknown Webcast” to discuss “Will NAR converge with evangelical churches?” Watch the interview here on Youtube.


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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu May 24, 2018 4:34 pm

Me thinks they already are!

I've downloaded to look at later, just the little bits I samples, this looks like something that should be shared.

Much love!
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sat May 26, 2018 11:13 am

Watched the entire interview and enjoyed it greatly. Holly does a great job of explaining what the NAR is, the founders, those who are being influenced, and what the founders believed.

I wasn’t aware that Jesus Culture, the praise and worship team, came out of that movement. My wife and I have been a part of several praise and worship teams since 1993. I became aware of Jesus Culture one day when browsing through Youtube videos listening to praise music.

We were in a praise and worship team at a Church of God church very near our home several years ago. I recall telling the music minister, ‘hey, I found this group called Jesus Culture and some of their stuff is good, but you have to watch out because they flow with not just the Holy Spirit, but with any spirit.

I’m going to explain what I mean by this. I hope no one is offended by how I try to describe what I am about to say, but here goes: To explain how a group can flow with the Holy Spirit or with another spirit I will use some terms from the drug culture of some 20 to 30 years ago.

Those who preach, or those who sing, or those who pray in a group know, or I should say that many have experienced, a flowing of the Holy Spirit. An anointing if you will, you may feel like you are in a zone. It is an exhilarating feeling and if one is immature, it can be addicting.

If the ‘feeling’ is what becomes the all important thing, then you seek that feeling like a drug addict would seek a high. Actually, it is a high in the sense of the fact that you are in God’s presence when worshipping Him in song and praises. Of course it is not always that way, and from my experience it was rarely that way. What I mean by that is that it was usually never heavily anointed or strongly feeling the presence of God.

What I noticed when watching Jesus Culture saddened me when I saw their addiction to that high. Their focus was on the WRONG THING. Because of this, the fact (imo) that their focus was on the ‘feeling’ can and probably will shipwreck their faith. It is not anything new. In Pentecostal circles for many years, one of the criticisms, and rightly so, was that many members and many denominations focused to strongly on the ‘experience’ and not enough on correct doctrine.

Is it in the bible, can we find it in the bible? These are always good questions. Getting back to music: if a Christian music group is all about getting into the zone, then it doesn’t matter necessarily how we get there, just that we get there. This means it is all about us and not about the Lord of Glory. It may be true that an immature pastor and congregation may put undue pressure on a praise and worship team to produce such results, and if that is the case get out of that church. We don’t worship demons and God at the same table.

You can see how quickly things can get out of sorts if your focus is on the wrong thing. You easily accept dark stages, light shows, and extremely loud music because it is all about the experience and the feeling.

Holly and the brothers hit on this very thing and it made my heart very glad when they brought out how in Wiccan, which is witchcraft religion, they chant and worship their god and revel in the feeling of the high that they experience. Much of what the group Jesus Culture does is the exact same thing. They repeat certain lines, especially when they begin to ‘feel’ a presence, and they get lost in that high as they play and sing. This is really nothing that should be played with like it is not a very serious thing.

The job of a worship team is to bring God’s people into the presence of God and worship Him. God’s people should be ready to do that because they love Him for who He is and what He has done for us. The thing is this however: you may not always ‘feel’ like praising Him on the one hand, and on the other, even if you do ‘feel’ like it, you may not feel His presence. Our focus should be on Him not on us.

I would like to say that I have brought up Jesus Culture as an example and they are not the only group that does this. I am not condemning them by sharing what I have seen. I think several years ago when I watched them, as I said I was saddened, but I did feel that they were sincere at least as far human beings can be sincere. Often times we go into denial when we don’t want to see something. I can’t read their hearts, I just see their actions. They were young at the time and susceptible to being deceived through not being deep enough in the word, and or by leadership who should know better.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Tue May 29, 2018 10:53 am

Hi Sacredcowbasher,

Quite a mouthful, that!

To begin with, I know exactly what you mean, I think.

Jesus Culture, to me, makes an excellent discussion example.

I believe you've correctly described much of what happens, or can happen. People can experience something beautiful, and then pursue that thing of beauty, not realizing that it cannot be gained by pursuit.

They gain something similar, but keep going back to the trough for the original "high", or emotional experience, for the original reality. It becomes a fiction.

"Here I am standing before You, falling in love, seeking Your truth, knowing that Your perfect grace has brought me to this place."

"To share Your love across this earth, the beauty of Your Holy Word, so I kneel before You God, I lift my hands 'cause You've set me free! So I shout out Your Name, from the rooftops I proclaim, that I am Yours!"

- Rooftops, Jesus Culture

To me, this is uplifting, building, the music is exultant. The doctrine is sound, and reflects my thoughts and feelings for God. I love this song.

"Jesus only did what He saw You do, He would only say what He heard You speak, He would only move when He felt You lead, following Your heart, following Your Spirit. How can I expect to live without You? When every move that Jesus made was in surrender. How can I begin walk without You? For You alone are worthy, You are always good! You are always good!"

- Where You Go I Go - Jesus Culture

Some of this has become the soundtrack of my life.

There is another probably NAR band, Urban Rescue.

"You calm the raging sea. I will not move. You still the storm in me. I will not move. Surely love and kindness will find me here. When everything is broken, you carry me. In the hour of my weakness, You carry me. When all is torn apart, You carry me!" - Carry Me - Urban Rescue

"Frail from the pain we carry, pale from the light we bury, all we need is a glimpse of You. Worn by a war that's raging, torn by a world that's breaking, all we need is a glimpse of You to bring us back to life. Spirit, captivate, resonate, liberate, recreate us!"

"Fear runs away and scatters, time dissipates and shatters, dead hearts rise in the wake of You! Joy overcomes the sorrow, hope illuminates tomorrow, Breathe of Live, we're alive in You!"

- Recreate - Urban Rescue

I have a short list of these songs that are amazingly right on doctrine, or, like the one above, just a touch off, not in an important way to edify me.

But I know their music past my short list is not right, and even within my little set I see issues. It's NAR music, and past my short list, the doctrine goes really off, the emotional manipulation goes off the charts, it becomes all about who will most experience the Holy Spirit, who will have the grandest vision, who will see the Presence of the Father. "Behold the Father, Behold the Father," she repeats, as if it were possible! And the concert must contain the prerequisite "jumping up and down while moving in a circle", ref Habakuk.

Urban rescue, "Desperate", ". . . so close I can see You now . . . ", right!

But I find messages of God's love and grace and optimism, that are so sadly lacking in what passes for "contemporary Christian music". I find exultant music, exultant words, it lifts me up into worship out of my gratefulness for what God has done for me.

But I sure have a tough time recommending them to others, because so much of their music is so off! But then we've been singing Vineyard music, Hillsong music, is Jesus Culture in fact the point guard for the NAR? Get some beautiful, doctrinally correct songs into the churches, in the hopes they will allow in less correct ones? I think it's been working.

"Here in the valley of my soul, though I am lost and all alone, through the shadows I can see, Your love is chasing after me. You cross the canyons of my fears, over the oceans of my tears, like the wind that moves the trees, Your love is chasing after me." - Never Stop - Urban Rescue

Reminders which are needed by me.

A beautiful lyric.

Do you see what they are doing?

Who is chasing me? Or What is chasing me! Does "Love" chase after one? Are we witnessing an attempt to "depersonalize God"? Make Him not a Person, instead, a Force? "Love"? A force like the wind? Or just poetry? Does it matter? I think what matters is what is received from it.

At the end of the day the repetition of "dumbed down" words leads to "dumbed down" worshipers, at least in some cases. And manipulative music and/or preaching establishes neural pathways built around supplying dopamine and such based on the emotional high of the "worship". Addicted is the correct word.

But any time someone can get turned off of the path of faith and doctrine onto the path of experience and self, then disaster is just as likely to follow. Faith becomes shipwrecked.

What I love about the hymns is that so many are solely about God, His nature, His works, His love, His grace. So many modern songs are all about me, me, me.

Bands like Jesus Culture, out of Bethel Redding, one of the core NAR churches, how is it that they can be so true to Scripture sometimes, and so off most of the rest of the time? Deceivers, deceiving and being deceived? A broken clock, but still right twice a day? Sincere, and sincerely misled? Urban Rescue, thick as thieves with Jesus Culture?

OK, I'll shut down soon, since I can see I getting into rant mode! One more.

"You are God and heaven, and here am I on earth. So I'll let my words be few. Jesus I am so in love with you."

Nice words. Nothing to do with Jesus Culture et al. However.

This is obviously inspired by Ecclesiastes:

Guard your steps when you go to the house of God. To draw near to listen is better than to offer the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they are doing evil. Be not rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be hasty to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven and you are on earth. Therefore let your words be few. For a dream comes with much business, and a fool's voice with many words.

Ecclesiastes 5:1-3 (ESV)


Don't talk, listen. Which is more important, what God has to say, or what you have to say? God is in heaven, and you are on earth, so keep that in mind, silly earthling! Too much activity makes you dream, and fools speak lots. So don't be too quick to talk to God, instead, pay attention to the One in Heaven.

"So I'll let my words be few . . . Jesus I am so in love with you!"

:doh:

Nice sentiment, but it - negates - the point of the passage it comes from! Man!!! Just a few words! MY declaration of My love for God. O man, are you so certain of your heart? I hope so! But still, Solomon was actually saying something a bit the opposite.

OK, as promised.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby shorttribber on Tue May 29, 2018 11:18 am

mark s wrote:What I love about the hymns is that so many are solely about God, His nature, His works, His love, His grace. So many modern songs are all about me, me, me.


:a3: and that IS the biggest flaw in modern contemporary music....and it's very heartbreaking :(

I believe that the majority of the "modern Church" mess is a direct result of it.

Try to have a modern church change their course though! Only God himself is able to do it...because the churches are dug in and unwilling to budge on the modern music for the most part.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Tue May 29, 2018 2:34 pm

Another example, this from "Elevation Worship",

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJo1zKvlNgk

@ 7:34 into the video . . .

"A miracle can happen now, because the Spirit of the Lord is here. The evidence is all around, that the Spirit of the Lord is here."

So . . . are we not one with the Holy Spirit? What do you mean, He's here 'now'? He's with me every moment. There's not a moment when He is not with me, and when He is not actively working towards my good.

What miracle are we waiting for? The Spirit of the Lord IS here. Right here (tapping his chest), inside.

The evidence. That's a beautiful thing to behold!! God's people serving each other in love, each contributing, not according to their own pride, their flesh, some idea of their "talents", or "rightful place", but truly as the Spirit determines.

The love! Love, and joy, and peace, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self-control, this is the evidence that the Spirit of the Lord is here.

But I think they mean, "Here, in this arena, tonight", and the evidence, "Can can just feel it, can't you? You know, feel it? Well . . . can't you?"

I guess "God showed up." Good thing for their show! Kind of makes me wonder where He had been, and, well, what if He hadn't?

I find much of the new music to be detrimental to spiritual health.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Tue May 29, 2018 9:37 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Sacredcowbasher,

Quite a mouthful, that!

To begin with, I know exactly what you mean, I think.

Jesus Culture, to me, makes an excellent discussion example.

I believe you've correctly described much of what happens, or can happen. People can experience something beautiful, and then pursue that thing of beauty, not realizing that it cannot be gained by pursuit.

They gain something similar, but keep going back to the trough for the original "high", or emotional experience, for the original reality. It becomes a fiction.


That is a very good way of putting it Mark. In a way it is like when a pastor or preacher is greatly used gy the Lord in a particular meeting and then later try to duplicate that experience by trying to make it happen in certain ways out of their own will. They may try to say some of the same things or even dress in a similar fashion or whatever it might be, but they are chasing after His presence using a form or formula.

What was it that made that happen, I want to duplicate it. If they fall into that temptation they are walking in the flesh.

It is definitely not wrong to look at what happened if God was in it. Why was He in it so strongly? This is a great question and we should meditate on things like this so we might see Him and please Him.

We need to be grounded in His word with our faith in Him and what He did at the cross. This is like a compass that always points us in the right direction or like a calibration that resets everything back in the right order. It places us where we should be and Jesus where He should be.

I think God wants to show up a lot more during church services where He is actually allowed in to the meeting; show up more in our prayer closet, (I’m speaking about myself as well), or when two or three are gathered together. I’m talking about when you feel His presence. He wants the gifts of the Holy Spirit to operate in services also. I believe this is where some of us are headed.

We cannot get there however in fleshly efforts. It is true in preaching as well as praise and worship. Praise and worship is a large part of a good church service. It helps to set the table for the pastor to preach the word. The pastor gives the meat or milk, depending on where the congregation is.

All of us should give our best efforts while at the same time understanding that it is all to be done by faith. Not a great deal of faith, but faith the size of a mustard seed, but that is in the right thing. God will honor faith, but I will also say that when our faith is in the right thing, the devil takes notice of it as well, and he fights us to get us to look at the ‘waves and the wind’ and not to Jesus.

The church wants His presence and we want it NOW! Show up Lord NOW! We want to dance before You NOW! Show up when WE want to show up, not when You want to. Who is it that is in charge of these types of meetings? Not the Holy Spirit. It is puny man who has to put on a show. So if he is too weak, then lets bring in the props.

If this sounds harsh I mean it to be. We need to wake up and grow up. Lets get off the milk, it is time. Again, I am speaking to myself as well.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed May 30, 2018 11:00 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:All of us should give our best efforts while at the same time understanding that it is all to be done by faith. Not a great deal of faith, but faith the size of a mustard seed, but that is in the right thing. God will honor faith, but I will also say that when our faith is in the right thing, the devil takes notice of it as well, and he fights us to get us to look at the ‘waves and the wind’ and not to Jesus.

The church wants His presence and we want it NOW! Show up Lord NOW! We want to dance before You NOW! Show up when WE want to show up, not when You want to. Who is it that is in charge of these types of meetings? Not the Holy Spirit. It is puny man who has to put on a show. So if he is too weak, then lets bring in the props.

If this sounds harsh I mean it to be. We need to wake up and grow up. Lets get off the milk, it is time. Again, I am speaking to myself as well.


Hi sacredcowbasher,

I'd like to follow along this thought for a bit.

Mustard seed faith.

Jesus told the disciples, "Forgive." If someone sins against you seven times, and seven times repents, and asks your forgiveness, forgive every time. The disciple's response? "Lord, increase our faith."

Jesus told them that with faith the size of a mustard seed,they could tell this Mulberry tree to dig itself up and transplant itself into the ocean, and it would obey. They Jesus told them a story about a servant coming in from the field, not to be waited upon by the master, rather to continue to serve the master, and then he can take care of his own needs.

Jesus told them to only say that they are unworthy servants, merely doing their duty.

Forgiving others, as God, in Christ, has forgiven you.

Unworthy servants, only doing our duty.

Forgiving.

How much faith is required? I mean, come on, even with a tiny little faith the size of a mustard seed, the size of this dot . you can tell a tree to plant itself into the ocean and it would! Is faith what is required? Or is it only obedience? Is it that we have to believe the amazing, the impossible, mountains to leap and skip at a word? Or is it only that we have to believe Him. That we simply speak that word when told to. Just obey. Leave the power to make the mountains waltz to Him.

I don't think it sounds harsh at all.

“In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece, where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome, where it became an institution. Next it moved to Europe where it became a culture, and, finally, it moved to America where it became an enterprise.”

- Dr. Richard C. Halverson (1916-1995), chaplain to the U.S. Senate


So many have so many ideas, and where has it got us? Here. Chasing after the wind.

Yes. The church wants His Presence. I like your words, Show up NOW, God! The church looks outside for what is already inside. Only the truth sets free. Lies enslave. The truth is, I don't know what's best. I don't know what God wants from me. But He does, and He lives inside me, and if I only do what He tells me to do - how much faith is needed? - then He is in charge, He organizes, He moves, He works, He lives! Not me.

I'm an unworthy servant. I'm only doing my duty. And even that not so well. But the best I can.

Everything wants us to look the other way. The flesh says, don't serve God, pander to me! The worlds says, so much glory, so much glitz, so much pleasure, come to me! The devils tells us, you deserve it, you've earned it, it won't hurt, you can have a little, go for it!

So many pastors and churches tell us all sorts of messages, but not the true one.

The truth of the Gospel is that none of these things matter against faith in the Risen Christ. No sins committed can remove you from God. But the reality of the Gospel is when Jesus comes in, He starts changing things. And for that I am so glad!

You want God to show up? Open your Bible. Or bless the believer next to you. He's already here. He's not going away.

I want to add . . . don't discount the Scriptures. They are the power of God. They are our DNA, as it were. They transform us. It's true. A Christian reading the Bible in a sincere search for the knowledge of God will not be disappointed.

He is inside of us. We are His temple. Anyone looking outside into the atmosphere, into experience, into feelings, is looking the wrong way. Faith in Scripture. Believe the Book. We have the most amazing book that could ever in all of creation exist. It tells us fantastical and amazing realities that are so far removed from the "normal earthly experience" it is simply unbelievable to me that these things are not being trumpeted from every pulpit. But they are not.

It's about time they were.

Much love,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Wed May 30, 2018 8:17 pm

mark s wrote:
He is inside of us. We are His temple. Anyone looking outside into the atmosphere, into experience, into feelings, is looking the wrong way. Faith in Scripture. Believe the Book. We have the most amazing book that could ever in all of creation exist. It tells us fantastical and amazing realities that are so far removed from the "normal earthly experience" it is simply unbelievable to me that these things are not being trumpeted from every pulpit. But they are not.

It's about time they were.


Your post blessed me Mark.

I think there may be several problems with Christians which cause them to become idolators. One, I think, is that they don’t believe what Jesus said. If it doesn’t occur in their lives or in the lives of their brothers and sisters, they stop believing it. Maybe it is because it hurts their pride that God is not moving in healing them, prospering them, or speaking to them etc. They may find comfort in being religious and acting the part of a believer. In the short run in may seem less painful because there is no intimate relationship with God. I don’t have to get mad at Him for not doing what His word says that He will do if I just go through the motions of religion.

I think pride plays a very big role in our getting off track. If we trust God the way we should, then He is in control. We may not want Him to be control. That means that I am not in control. If I am in control, if I want to be somebody I can prop myself up and put on a good show and pretend to be somebody. If I trust Him to bring me wherever He wants, to do in me whatever He wants, and to be want He wants me to be, what if that means I have to clean the church toilets? I can’t do that.

We are strange beings. You have said it well. We could have peace, joy, and rest by letting Him be in control, but we forfeit it all because we want to be in control.

Another thing may be that, because we complicated people, we may say, ‘it can’t be that simple’. We have to work for it. We have to do our part ( which winds up being everything ), we have to fast, we have to read the bible two hours every day, etc etc.

The truth is, it is that simple: faith in Christ and what He did at the cross. This way He gets the glory and the Holy Spirit is free to work in our lives like He wants to, which brings me to another point.

Christian growth. How do we grow? Are we suppose to grow? Yes, we are to grow in love for one another and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, and we are to become more and more like Jesus as we grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord.

The word of God is key to growth as you mentioned. Someone said, Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, which spells BIBLE. It is much more than that though. It is a lamp onto our feet and a light unto our path. How shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to God’s word. It gives us understanding and knowledge and wisdom. It shows us how sinful we are and how faithful God is.

The other vital thing besides prayer, which is very important to our relationship with God and the Lord, the other vital thing is how the Holy Spirit works in our lives. There is a verse in 2nd Chronicles 7:14 that we are familiar with which says, ‘If My people who are called by my name will humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, forgive their sins, and heal their land’.

One of the main jobs of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of our sin. We may not see it and I think I can say that if the Holy Spirit don’t show us our sin, or if the word of God don’t show us our sin, we won’t see it.

These two are key to Christian growth. We need pastors who will hold on to God’s unchanging word, believe His promises and preach them. Preach hell hot and the coming judgment, and preach the grace of God, salvation through the cross and the shedding of His blood, and progressive sanctification through faith in the same thing.

Faith is a fight. It is the good fight. The fight that is worth getting beat up every once in a while, just keep getting back up and tell the devil he has no future and the Christian has no past ( as far as sin is concerned ).

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby GodsStudent on Thu May 31, 2018 7:55 am

BEAUTIFUL Discussion.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu May 31, 2018 4:11 pm

sacredcowbasher wrote:In the short run in may seem less painful because there is no intimate relationship with God. I don’t have to get mad at Him for not doing what His word says that He will do if I just go through the motions of religion.


Hi SCB,

Can't do it, don't try!

Intimacy with God is so much greater than anything else!

I think a big part is we can't do what we think we need to, and feel disqualified. But Jesus has qualified us.

It's all in faith, nothing in ourselves. Nothing!

Reaching the end of me was hugely instrumental in getting me on track. Totally overwhelmed by life's circumstances. Once I realized I truly was unqualified to run my life.

Giving up is hard to do!

Like you mentioned, cleaning the toilets, and that's how people often think. If I give in to God, I'll have to do horrible things.

But chasing anything but Him is meaningless, you will never reach it. But God makes everything beautiful for it's time. Let Him bring it to you, and it will be wonderful! Even a dirty toilet!


Another thing may be that, because we complicated people, we may say, ‘it can’t be that simple’. We have to work for it. We have to do our part ( which winds up being everything ), we have to fast, we have to read the bible two hours every day, etc etc.


Which is still pride.

The truth is, it is that simple: faith in Christ and what He did at the cross. This way He gets the glory and the Holy Spirit is free to work in our lives like He wants to, which brings me to another point.


Which is surrender.

Christian growth. How do we grow? Are we suppose to grow? Yes, we are to grow in love for one another and in the knowledge of Jesus Christ, and we are to become more and more like Jesus as we grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord.

The word of God is key to growth as you mentioned. Someone said, Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, which spells BIBLE. It is much more than that though. It is a lamp onto our feet and a light unto our path. How shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed thereto according to God’s word. It gives us understanding and knowledge and wisdom. It shows us how sinful we are and how faithful God is.

The other vital thing besides prayer, which is very important to our relationship with God and the Lord, the other vital thing is how the Holy Spirit works in our lives. There is a verse in 2nd Chronicles 7:14 that we are familiar with which says, ‘If My people who are called by my name will humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from Heaven, forgive their sins, and heal their land’.

One of the main jobs of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of our sin. We may not see it and I think I can say that if the Holy Spirit don’t show us our sin, or if the word of God don’t show us our sin, we won’t see it.

These two are key to Christian growth. We need pastors who will hold on to God’s unchanging word, believe His promises and preach them. Preach hell hot and the coming judgment, and preach the grace of God, salvation through the cross and the shedding of His blood, and progressive sanctification through faith in the same thing.

Faith is a fight. It is the good fight. The fight that is worth getting beat up every once in a while, just keep getting back up and tell the devil he has no future and the Christian has no past ( as far as sin is concerned ).

God bless


I would say the Holy Spirit convicts the unsaved of sin, the world, but having been redeemed, sin is removed from us, and we are new creatures.

Even when I am sinning, God is right there with me, loving me, protecting me, helping me, supporting me, all the things He always does, NEVER forsaking me.

And of course He is leading me away from those things that arise from the flesh, leading me into those things that live in the Spirit.

People don't realize just how free they really are in Christ.
People don't realize just how completely God will care for them.
And I don't think they realize how relentless God is when it comes to our sanctification.

Much love!

Joy to be on the same page!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu May 31, 2018 11:15 pm

It truly is a joy Mark because you seek after the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. God always gives His children something to hope for, to believe for, a promise to wait on, and it brings Him joy when His children never give up on Him.

In the Grace Revolution that is very popular today in America and possibly around the world, it is taught that Grace is the only way to walk out our Christian faith, and that law leads to bondage. I’m writing this based on second hand knowledge from listening to the brothers I watch in the mornings on TV and not from personally listening the Grace Revolution's preaching and teaching.

Some of what they teach is correct in that they lead Christians away from living under the law. This can lead to an intimate relationship with God and away from religious dos and don’ts. Where they get off track is when they teach that Christians need not confess their sins and ask God for forgiveness.

Confessing our sin is part of our relationship. In Psalms, David even asked God to forgive him of sins that were unknown to himself.

They teach that if you confess your sin, you pick up a consciousness of sin. Christians can definitely have an unhealthy view of their sin and they can condemn themselves - I’ve been there, but we grow out of it as we keep plugging along.

[It’s funny, as I write, ‘keep plugging along’, how many Christians today would be ok with plugging along. Not many. We want it all, and we want it now.

I was no different when I was young. I backslid immediately after I was born again ( six weeks ), then after two years of trying to do it on my own without reading the bible or going to church, I found myself in a pitiful state. When I decided to obey God and begin to to do things His way, I wanted it all right then, but God had something else in mind.

He wanted me to be tossed about by winds of doctrine for years so that I could some to understand what the truth was. What true doctrine is. I believe I have come to understand what it is, and although I am not walking in all that I see, I know it is coming. I have a long way to go, but I strive, forgetting those things that are behind, I press toward the mark of the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.]

They teach that if you ask for forgiveness then you are not believing that His blood cleaned you from all sin at Calvary. It is true that His blood did cleanse us from sins past, present, and future. As a matter of fact, it forgave the whole world of sin as long as one receives it the way God ordered it, by accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and repenting of their sins and selfish ways. What if we said, ‘All right you unsaved lost ones, you don’t have to actually receive Jesus as Savior because He died and shed his blood for the whole world’. ‘Everyone goes to heaven because of what He did on the cross’.

They teach that, in John 1:9, where it says that if we sin, we should confess our sin, and that He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, that this is written for sinners. While it is true that some people do get saved from reading the bible, the bible was written for believers. Really, the bible cannot be understood until one is born again of the Spirit, it is foolishness to them. This is where there teaching goes off the rails. Like all false teaching, you have to come to the place where you begin to twist the scriptures to make it fit what you are teaching.

Not confessing our sins will do exactly the opposite of bringing us into intimacy with God. We will become callus, hardened by our sin. Our sin will separate us from God.

Faith is probably the most important part of a believer’s life, but alone, it is not enough. It is good beyond words to know what Jesus did at Calvary, but sin is still a powerful force that needs to be dealt with on an ongoing basis. Jesus Himself never had to confess sin, but I have to confess sin every day. I go to the cross every day.

In the first chapter of John, he calls those he is writing to ‘little children’. This is not referring to sinners but to saints.

Have to go to work in the morning. God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:18 am

Hi Sacredcowbasher,

Interesting you would bring up this topic!

There is a very strong debate over 1 John 1. Does it mean we continue to ask and receive forgiveness? Or is the cleansing complete, and we need never be forgiven again?

I'm one of those people who think that Christians, at least so many that I know, have been taught a blend of old and new covenant, where our intimacy with God, our relationship with Him, becomes based on our own performance - our ability to think and speak and do right - and if we do well, we can be close.

But if we don't "our fellowship is broken", or, "we can't be blessed", or "God won't let it rain", all sorts of things.

We've been going through Hebrews in small group. One of the things that has impressed me very strongly is the supremacy of the new covenant over the first covenant, the Law, in that the new covenant entirely depends on Jesus' finished work. This makes it intrinsically better because we will always fail due to the weakness of our flesh.

Therefore any covenant that relies at all on our performance is doomed to failure, because we cannot perform.

I'd even go so far as to say that I don't think I'm even aware of all the sins I commit. In fact, as the years go by, I realize sin encompasses so much more than I used to think it did. I wonder what I'll think of my present self in the years to come!

How do I ask for forgiveness for sins I'm not even aware of?

I totally rely on Jesus. He loves me. He gave Himself for me. He made me. He purchased me. I am owned by Him. He has a purpose for me, and His purpose is love and faith. The only thing that matters, God said, is faith expressing itself through love. Jesus won't stop until my life is fully defined and informed by His. And for that I am and will be eternally grateful. I can't do it. But He has promised.

I am in the care of Him Who accepts me in His beloved Son. As the Father loves and receives the Son, so He receives this son.

I sometimes have this discussion, and have had occasion to very closely examine the syntax, grammar, progression of thought, and I think that the correct interpretation of 1 John 1 can be clearly seen.

God teaches us in Romans 5 that we stand by grace, and that grace is entered into by faith in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Whether you are one who asks forgiveness for known sins, or one who simply apologizes to Dad when you realize you did wrong, I'd say the same thing. You have your own relationship with God, and I'm not going to tell you how to talk to your Father.

But I can also so this.

We are accepted in the Beloved. And I don't see any additions or qualifiers in that verse.

I've you'd like to join me in a verse by verse analysis of the latter portion of 1 John 1, I'd be happy to do that with you.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:24 am

As I'm reading again your post, I'm noticing where you mentioned their idea that confession of sin brings consciousness of sin.

I have to ask, what's wrong with living in reality? Of course I commit sins.

Or, well, actually, that's not exactly what the Bible says. Strangely enough! I don't, according to God, commit sins. I know, an outrageous statement, but just the same:

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Romans 7:14-20 (NASB)


Twice in the same place, God says it's not me committing those sins. There is sin living in me. That's who is committing the sins.

Like I said, outrageous!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:44 am

It's a little later in 1 John that God tells us:

Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth. We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.

1 John 3:18-22 (NASB)


There is a matter of our confidence before God. That confidence is built when our hearts do not condemn us. When our hearts do condemn us, we can assure our heart that we are of the truth, because we love not just with word, but with action.

And of course His commandments are only 2: trust in Jesus, and love each other.

Our hearts condemn us.

Why?

Because we commit sins, it would seem to me, would be the only reason we might in our heart feel condemned.

What do we do when we feel condemned? Look for sins in our life so we can get them confessed and forgiven? So friendship with God can be restored?

Or look at our lives for the evidence of the Gospel, love, and trust, so that we can reassure ourselves, that friendship with God has not been broken?

That we are reconciled, yes, even when we commit sins. Or, rather, when the old man, crucified, condemned, and to be done away with, the body transformed into incorruptibility, then that one commits sins.

Sins we hate. Sins we've already repented of. Sins we've trusted Jesus for their forgiveness, their removal, to be remembered no more.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:20 pm

mark s wrote:There is a matter of our confidence before God. That confidence is built when our hearts do not condemn us. When our hearts do condemn us, we can assure our heart that we are of the truth, because we love not just with word, but with action.

And of course His commandments are only 2: trust in Jesus, and love each other.

Our hearts condemn us.

Why?

Because we commit sins, it would seem to me, would be the only reason we might in our heart feel condemned.

What do we do when we feel condemned? Look for sins in our life so we can get them confessed and forgiven? So friendship with God can be restored?

Or look at our lives for the evidence of the Gospel, love, and trust, so that we can reassure ourselves, that friendship with God has not been broken?

That we are reconciled, yes, even when we commit sins. Or, rather, when the old man, crucified, condemned, and to be done away with, the body transformed into incorruptibility, then that one commits sins.

Sins we hate. Sins we've already repented of. Sins we've trusted Jesus for their forgiveness, their removal, to be remembered no more.


I would say that in a sense it is sin that makes a Christian feel condemned, but this is not what actually makes one feel condemned. The cause of the condemnation is a wrong understanding of God’s grace through His Son. We are justified in Him and we are new creatures in Christ. When we feel condemned it is because we are living under law. We don’t really believe that Jesus forgives us when we confess our sin to Him. If we did really believe that He forgives us we would walk away clean knowing that it is under the blood, but we have to receive it because we believe it.

When the apostle Paul wrote what he did in Romans, I believe ch 6, he had tried to live out his salvation experience through much of his own efforts and probably believed that he could now keep the law. When a Christian is full of God’s grace it has a tendency to make one think along those lines. He wound up in a messy state, ie:, O wretched man that I am, who can deliver me from this body of death? I thank God through Jesus Christ ...

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Was Paul calling the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ a law like those of the old covenant given to Moses? No.

He is calling it a law because it is a truth established in Jesus’ death on the cross and ratified or officially given the stamp of the Father’s approval through all eternity by His raising from the dead in a glorified body, or resurrected body.

The church is such a mess that some of us are in a transition place where we are beginning to understand how to live the way Jesus intended for us. Most of the church unfortunately is living under law, and now there is a segment that is embracing the ‘grace revolution’ which to some extent is teaching truth mixed with error.

Getting back to those who hold the truth: We may not see the victorious life in Christ every day. We may not have as much grace as we would like to have. What I mean by that is this: It is God that gives us the amount of grace He wants us to have. Jesus was given grace without measure, but for the rest of us, and lets look at the apostle Paul.

He asked for the Lord to remove the thorn from him three times and the Lord responded to him and said, My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in your weakness.

God is making a perfect vessel. Yes it is true that we are perfect in Christ. If this were not so, we could not go to the throne. When we are saved, born again, we receive, I forget what it is called, but we receive instant sanctification. We also receive the Holy Spirit to whatever degree God permits and to whatever gifts of the Spirit He permits. Once we are saved it is the very beginning of our walk. Right after being saved we enter progressive sanctification. God removed sin out of our lives and forms us into the image of His Son.

Much of our life as Christians revolved around faith. Do we believe what Jesus said?

In Romans 7:14-20 Paul has come to the end of himself. The sin nature has brought him to this point, because he thought he could live by the law, or that he could fulfill the law now that he has been given grace and God’s Spirit. He finds out that he very wrong in this thinking. He spends three years in the Arabian desert and is given the revelation of the meaning of what Jesus accomplished at the cross. Praise God forever!

Because he received it, we can now have it. Paul looked at his body as being separate from his real self. He knew that in his mind he obeyed the law because he said that it was holy and right. In his body he could not keep it because of sin. How do we become like Jesus who never sinned?

Through progressive sanctification and by living by faith in Jesus Christ and what He did at the cross. Period. It is God’s work. He sanctifies us, we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus. It is how we should never feel condemned. We should be the happiest people on earth, because we enter into rest from our labors. Our labors become dead works, speaking of our labors of trying to be good.

So Mark, I think you can see that we agree on about 95% of what we are sharing, and I think we can rejoice that we serve the most incredible God, amazing in every way, who went out os His way to bring us to heaven and to allow us to have an incredible journey along the way to eternity.

To sum up: We can never really become exactly like Jesus, at least in my opinion. I think we will always fall short in some way until we put on incorruption.

The other thing is this: The sin nature is a great topic which is hard to touch on in a brief way and give it justice. Many Christians, I should say, most believe that once we are born again we could never be bothered by a sin nature again. Not true. The reason most Christians are in the mess their in is because of the sin nature. They do what they don’t want to do and what they want to do they don’t.

This is not the problem as I mentioned earlier. The problem comes when we try to fix it in our own way or by our own straight and we don’t understand justification and we have our faith in the wrong object.

Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

Have to work tomorrow, I think. Not sure if customer is ready. i hope they are not, maybe we can flesh out some of this more, pun intended.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:06 am

Hi sacredcowbasher,

I'll need to read again to digest and respond, but one quick comment I'll make. I don't think Paul was describing his own messy life. I think God was telling us about the human condition, and His perspective.

Much love!
Mark
Last edited by mark s on Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: to fix stupid.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:35 pm

mark s wrote:Hi Sonbean,

I'll need to read again to digest and respond, but one quick comment I'll make. I don't think Paul was describing his own messy life. I think God was telling us about the human condition, and His perspective.

Much love!
Mark


Hi Mark,

I think you were addressing these comments to sacredcowbasher. :grin:

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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:38 pm

Yes, you are right, and I even misspelled you!

:doh:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:09 pm

Hi Mark, Right, most Christians do think that because they mistake the understanding of what Paul was talking about. Like I mentioned earlier, most Christians don’t believe they can have a problem with the sin nature once they are saved. This is what I was taught as well. It could make sense that because you receive the Divine Nature when you are saved and born again, one could think that the sin nature is a thing of the past, never to be bothered with again.

In those wonderful jam packed chapters of Romans 5,6, and 7 - maybe not 7, I am still a novice at this so bear with me, sin is talked about a lot by Paul. Nine times of out ten he is talking about the sin nature, not just sin. It will clear up a lot if you look at it from the correct perspective. Yes the apostle Paul got messed up and was taken aback by it. He is not speaking of a pre-saved position there. He is building a case and laying it out line upon line.

If a Christian tries to live the Christian life by law, they activate the sin nature which was laying dormant. They seise to glorify Jesus in their lives and attempt to do good and be good in their own strength or righteousness. The Holy Spirit will back off and allow sin to run its course. This person could commit sins and ask forgiveness and the Lord will forgive their sins, but we are talking about a lifestyle, not a sin here and a sin there.

If we are wrong about justification and sanctification, and we try to produce on our own, we begin to set a law into production. It is a principal that will happen every time. God has to be true to His word.

The revelation that Paul acquired is found right after he lays out ‘the wretched man’ paragraph. In Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. He refers to these great truths as laws because he has just experienced (recent past), what the powerful law of sin and death accomplished in his own life when he attempted to live by the law.

Paul as you know, grew up under the religion of the Jews and studied under Gamaliel. He was the Pharisee of Pharisees. If you were to ask him if lived in sin, not only would he have been insulted, he would either blow you off, or explain how he fasted, prayed, and did good deeds to earn his way to heaven and recognition on earth.

He would never have considered himself to be a wretched man in a body of death. Never. He justified his actions in his participaton with the punishment and execution of Christians as righteous. He viewed Christians as doing despite to their father’s religion and disgracing it.

I’ll stop here for now.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:33 am

Hi scb,

I think we have very different ideas on what a "sin nature" is, what we are, and what God has done to/for us.

You said something very interesting to me, and I'd like to ask a follow-up question.

You mentioned in reference to sin that you were talking about a lifestyle, not just a sin here or a sin there. My question is this. What is the difference between these two? Do they come from "different places", as it were? Is there some qualitative difference between the two?

Much love!
mark
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:02 pm

Great question Mark, and this is the heart of the matter.

What happens when a person is born again is that he or she is given a new nature. They become new creatures in Jesus Christ. It is His divine nature and our sin nature is unplugged or is made dormant.

We are justified in Christ by His work on the cross and our sins are washed away by His blood. We are instantly sanctified and we usually feel clean and washed and sometimes more than that.

If we were not instantly sanctified we could not come to the throne room. This is the very beginning of our new life.

From this point on we enter into a progressive sanctification whereby the Holy Spirit leads us and guides us into all truth. He convicts us of sin and forms us into the image of our Lord.

The way this works is that our faith has to be in Jesus and what He accomplished at the cross. In this lifestyle, we are living by grace through faith and the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is in effect in our lives.

We sin here and there along our walk, and the correct thing to do is to confess our sin or sins and receive His forgiveness and be cleansed from all unrighteousness. This does not take us out of His grace, in other words, sinning does not take us out of His grace, but there is something that does.

When we place our faith in ANYTHING other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified, we enter into LAW. We no longer live under grace but we enter into law and we live under law. The sin nature that was laying dormant while we lived under grace becomes activated once again and we find ourselves restless, sometimes oppressed, maybe depressed, angry, envious, etc, etc. In other words, the works of the flesh begin to appear in our lives.

How long does it take for the sin nature to become activated? I think the process begins immediately once we move form faith in Christ and Him crucified to whatever else we choose to live by. The longer we choose to rely on something else or share our faith in Jesus with other things, the worse things will get.

The Holy Spirit will try to get us back on the right track or lifestyle if you will permit me to use this phrase. I use it because it explains it well. He will try to get us back to faith in Him and what He did, it is not like He leaves us. It is possible over time that we could grieve Him to the point where He will leave in the sense of not being in us.

I may not be able to say what happens here with specificity, but His leaving happened in my life when I was a young man shortly after being born again. I was dead set on doing things my way and didn’t bother to read the bible. God would have none of it. I enjoyed His presence about six weeks and He gave a test which I failed.

Most of the church lives under law and they think that everything is fine. They try to find ways to make things work by self efforts and since everyone else is doing the same thing it must be right.

Here is a diagram of how things are in most churches followed by how it should be:

Object of our Faith Works
Focus of our Faith Performance
Source Self
Results Failure

Object of our Faith Jesus Christ
Focus of our Faith the Cross of Christ
Source the Holy Spirit
Results Victory

As we talked about earlier, the pride of man is probably the greatest reason why we fall into the works oriented cookie cutter running around staying busy serving one another lives. We put on airs and prop ourselves up and we wind up with our own righteousness instead of His. We become religious.

Much of this is really not the fault, in a sense, of most of the church. I would go so far as to say that it really hasn’t been the fault of the leadership either. We were in the dark as to how the Holy Spirit works years ago, but now that the light has come we need to walk in it and grow in it.

The promises of God are yes and amen. Paul said this in one of his epistles. He was walking in the promises which is how he could say they are yes and amen. Everything Jesus and Paul said are true and we take it, as we say, to the bank.

This is the reason why we should never give up if we don’t see anything happening. Keep believing in Him and His promises. Keep reading His word, keep praying, and by all means, live under grace. It won’t be easy at first because we are so used to living under law. You are going to mess up quite a bit at first until we get to the place where we begin to actually trust Him only, or almost only.

He will never let us down. I feel led to share about Jacob.

Jacob was crushed when his sons came back from the field and told their father that Joseph was killed by wild animals. They brought him back his coat of many colors as proof of what must have happened. This spiritual man, Jacob, who God called Israel, meaning prince with God, was blind-sided, and probably took it like a big punch in the stomach.

How could this be? His son Joseph who also was spiritual, who God had given an amazing dream, who his father could only imagine what great life this son of his would have and looked for it every day to see what God would do. And now this?

He was totally heart broken and dismayed. Why would God do such a thing or allow such a thing to take place? He went for years unsettled and much of his joy was taken from him.

Then the famine happens, his brothers go for food to Egypt, and they discover Joseph not only made it, but he was second in the whole nation. They come back to their father with 10 wagons of supplies and goods of all kinds at the end, and they tell their father what they had done to their brother and how they lied about his death and that he was alive and was second in all of Egypt.

Jacob’s response was ‘It is enough’. I see this as Jacob saying, all that I thought could have become of Joseph’s life came to pass and more. God has been faithful. I didn’t see anything good about this thing for many years, but today I see that all is well and better than I expected. His promises are true and sure - it is enough.

We are all going to say the same thing when God brings His will to pass in our lives. Keep on keeping on. Jesus told Martha after Lazarus died, ‘Martha, did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?’

The world wants to see so they will believe, but we who are His are to believe so we will see.

There is a lot to be said about these things. I guess that is obvious.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:42 am

For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:5:11 (Young's Literal Translation)


Hi SCB,

In this passage, "That the body of sin might be done away with", be done away with, in this translation, comes from a word variously translated, "rendered powerless", "make useless", "made of no effect", "may be nullified".

Our old self was crucified with Christ, and is now therefore . . . dead.

We've died to sin, and live to God. The body of sin is dead, and just as those that are dead, has no power.

God even tells us to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin. Is God asking for us to fool ourselves into thinking something that's not true?

I don't think so. I think God wants for us to walk in truth.

I think that we are dead to our flesh.

So why do we still sin?

I think it's because we believe that the sin nature still has power. It does not.

But you have not so learned Christ, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Ephesian 4:20-24 (NKJV)


Solomon wrote in Ecclesiastes that when people die, they no longer have anything to do with what happens in this world. And this is evidently true. Their body remains, but they are not able to use it, and they have nothing to do with anything under the sun any more.

These people who have died, well, it's all over Scripture that they are not done with existence. Samuel coming to see Saul. The rich man and Lazarus. Jesus preaching to spirits in prison who were disobedient in the days of Noah. The dead, small and great, standing before the throne. There are more.

Death is not inactivity. But it is separation. And an inability to act within that to what we have died. The dead to the world cannot act in the world. The dead to God cannot relate with God. And the dead body of sin has no power over me. Nevermore!

The old man grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts.

When I ask myself, what is deceitful about the fleshly desires. I can think of a few things!

One is, this is what I want. It's not what I want.
Another is, this is what I need. It's not what I need.
Another is, I have no power over it. I do. It has no power over me. But it lies to me, and says I can't stop it, it's just the way I am.

But I am something else. I've been created in righteousness and true holiness.

What if I have two natures, one old and dead, one new and alive? One depraved but powerless? One righteous and alive? The old nature, ready and perfectly willing to spring into action at any moment, but the new, instructed to take over the body to be used for righteousness?

Let me ask you, sacredcowbasher, how much forgiveness do we need to be united with God?

When I consider Jesus' prayer for us was to be in the same unity with God that Jesus had, and when I think about verses like in Romans 8 where it says that our spirit cries out through His Spirit that we are His children, Galatians 2 where it says that though I'm dead on the cross with Christ, I'm alive, but it's not me living, it's Jesus in me alive, when I read these passages, I understand that I have in fact been united with Him. His live is my live. I've been born of God.

I was born from my human parents, that's where I got my "unibrow", and my weird tilt to the corner of my mouth, just like my father had.

I've been born from a divine Parent. That's where I got my righteous and holy nature, just like my Father has.

John wrote, that which is born of God sins not.

How can that possibly be true? Unless . . . that which is born of God does not in fact sin, and what Paul wrote in Romans 7 is equally true, Therefore it is no longer I who sin, but sin that lives in me. Not me. Him. The old man. Useless. Dead. But very very deceptive.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:28 pm

mark s wrote:In this passage, "That the body of sin might be done away with", be done away with, in this translation, comes from a word variously translated, "rendered powerless", "make useless", "made of no effect", "may be nullified".

Our old self was crucified with Christ, and is now therefore . . . dead.

We've died to sin, and live to God. The body of sin is dead, and just as those that are dead, has no power.

God even tells us to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin. Is God asking for us to fool ourselves into thinking something that's not true?

I don't think so. I think God wants for us to walk in truth.

I think that we are dead to our flesh.


Our body of sin can be resurrected. What the word is telling us of course is true. It is true with the intention that we live the life of a Christian. The life that we’ve been given in Christ works when our faith is in Him and what He accomplished on the cross. We live under grace and the Holy Spirit works exclusively through the cross of Christ.

When our faith gets off track and we begin to live by another set of, what inevitably becomes law, our sin nature will begin to come alive.

No Christian has anything to be concerned about if their faith is in the right place. When it is, we are glorifying Jesus and not ourselves. When we live by law, and faith in anything other than Christ and what He did will lead us into law, and when we live by law it is we who gets the glory. We are somehow trying to earn it or work for it instead of allowing faith in Christ and what He did to lead us and guide us.

For the law of spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made us free from the law of sin and death. These are ‘laws’ that God has put in place. They can not be changed unless He were to change them and there is no indication from the bible that He has any intention to do that, praise God!

As long as we walk as we should we are free from the bondage of sin, from the dominion of sin. As I mentioned earlier, even if we sin, and we will sin, we confess it and return to our walking in freedom. If you say you have no sin you make God a liar. 1st John tells us about these things. Sin does not necessarily move us away from right standing in Christ, which is a poor way saying it because it is the greatest thing in the world to live victoriously in Christ, free from the bondage of sin.

All of this can change however if we move our faith away from Christ and Him crucified. When we do that, it becomes sin and we begin to walk in the flesh.

I said, sin does not necessarily move us away from being right with God because I can’t just say blankly that it would never move us. If it is willful sin and we are stubbornly disobedient or rebellious, that will move us away from grace.

There was a time when God winked at sin, but because the light of truth has been given, His patience will not be as long-suffering. Really, not even ignorance is an acceptable excuse. We will still find ourselves in the ditch if we continue on the wrong path. It is God’s love that allows this to happen.

The Father wants His Son to be glorified in the saints. If the saints are running around trying to establish their own righteousness, Jesus is not being exulted. The reason we can walk around free from the bondage of sin is because of Jesus, not because of us. If we think we have something to do with it we are mistaken.

mark s wrote:Death is not inactivity. But it is separation. And an inability to act within that to what we have died. The dead to the world cannot act in the world. The dead to God cannot relate with God. And the dead body of sin has no power over me. Nevermore!


Nevermore is not a true statement according to His word. In Romans we read where Paul says ... ‘and sin revived, and I died’. When he says, and I died here, he is speaking of losing his place of grace which is a quickened life that the Holy Spirit gives us when we are born again. It is what Adam and Eve experienced when they fell in the garden. They died.

What we want as Christians who are sincere about living this life, is to do it God’s way and to know what that way is. We can’t have it our way or try to make things fit into what we think it should be. It will not work and as time goes on it will become more and more obvious that it will not work. God is moving upon His people to become a spotless bride. That means our bodies as well as our minds, which brings us to this

mark s wrote:When I consider Jesus' prayer for us was to be in the same unity with God that Jesus had, and when I think about verses like in Romans 8 where it says that our spirit cries out through His Spirit that we are His children, Galatians 2 where it says that though I'm dead on the cross with Christ, I'm alive, but it's not me living, it's Jesus in me alive, when I read these passages, I understand that I have in fact been united with Him. His live is my live. I've been born of God.

I was born from my human parents, that's where I got my "unibrow", and my weird tilt to the corner of my mouth, just like my father had.

I've been born from a divine Parent. That's where I got my righteous and holy nature, just like my Father has.

John wrote, that which is born of God sins not.

How can that possibly be true? Unless . . . that which is born of God does not in fact sin, and what Paul wrote in Romans 7 is equally true, Therefore it is no longer I who sin, but sin that lives in me. Not me. Him. The old man. Useless. Dead. But very very deceptive.


What is being described here is the beginning of a person’s born again life. This is a person who has not been changed by progressive sanctification. His body is still sinning. In Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

A truth we find at the beginning of our walk. Don’t be dismayed by the sin. Don’t try to fix it yourself, you will enter into law. Let the Holy Spirit do His work in your life. He will bring you to the place of Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The righteousness of the law is holy. Another place it says, be ye holy as your heavenly Father is holy. Holiness comes by faith in Christ and Him crucified. As we continue to place our faith correctly, God will take notice, and whatever His plan is for your life will come to pass. There is a verse in Peter and also James that is similar, ‘Humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God and in due season He will exult you’.

James says, Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and He will lift you up. When we understand the message of the cross for sanctification, the cross nullifies all the works of the flesh. It brings them to nothing. It takes down the pride of man who thinks he has the ability to live a spiritual life in his own strength. It removes all idols and spiritual adultery. It is humbling when we accept the fact that it is only what through Jesus and what He did that we can live this life triumphantly.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:40 am

Hi SCB,

You wrote, the body of sin can be resurrected. I don't see that anywhere in the Bible. Would you mind showing me that in Scripture?

Much love!
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:40 pm

I may have to take a few days to find what I’m looking for. Also, the word ‘resurrected’ may be a poor choice. I am more comfortable with the previous terms that I used like. made alive, or becomes activated once again, or plugged in once again, things like that.

I appreciate you and the back and forth. Give me some time, as I said, I am a novice at this, meaning that I don’t have go to verses to support what I am writing. It is very worth it however for me, and necessary, to support these things with at least two or three witnesses. Let God be true and every man a liar.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:54 am

Hi scb,

Please take your time in the Scriptures, read and understand these things. Know them for yourself from God. It has well been said that when man convinces, another man can convince differently. But when you know the truth yourself from God . . . well, I believe that you have an amazing, incredible, and incredibly liberating truth just waiting to be found.

And in any way that I can assist you in understanding God's Word, I am yours.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:51 am

Hi SCB,

One thing I was just thinking about, the passage that really started my on my discovery of the overwhelming truth of the Gospel - the Good News - was Colossians 3.

This is a prophecy, that all who were raised with Christ, have died with Him, and will appear with Him when He appears. This would be the "born again", defined in Roman's 6.

If this is true - and it must be - then all who have been born again will appear with Christ when He appears.

There is no qualifier to this prophecy. All who have been born again will be there. Every last one.

Which means to me that none of these other things are of any effect on whether or not we will be with Christ in the end. Only whether or not we are born again, born of God, through trusting in Jesus. Only that counts.

Which means to me that whether we sin or not, ask forgiveness or not, these do not determine whether we will be there. Only rebirth.

Now, with that being said, I'll say something I've become fond of saying,

The Truth of the Gospel is that sin cannot separate us from God any longer, it no longer has that power. We have become united to God, and nothing can break that unity.

But the Reality of the Gospel is that when Jesus comes in to our lives, He starts changing things into the way He wants them. Slower in some, more obvious in others, but He never just leaves us the same.

Can it really be true that every last person who was born again will appear with Christ? The Bible declares it.

If that is true, what does it tell us about the scope and finality of God's forgiveness of our sins?

Romans tells us that even when we were God's enemies, still sinners, Jesus died for us, and reconciled us to God. God removed our sin before we even came to faith! Wild! But reconciled.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:42 pm

Hi Mark,

In your last post you bring once saved always saved into the mix. This may be a nice sentiment and a hopeful thought, but it is not bible.

I think many who see the beautiful truths of salvation and the amazing grace that God extended to mankind through what Jesus did at the cross, overlook ( intentionally possibly ), the reality of the whole council of His word. It is there for those who have desire to see it.

One example, and there are many, is found in Romans where Paul explains how that the Jews are the natural branches of the olive tree. The root is holy and when Christ came to own, his own rejected Him. So God removed the natural branches and grafted in the gentiles, the wild olive branches. He goes on to say, do not boast against the natural branches, because if God removed the natural branches, He can also remove the wild olive branches if they no longer believe. So we see the goodness of God and the severity. Goodness if you continue in those things which we have taught you, but severity if not.

The majority of church today is in apostasy. They have left the faith which the bible teaches. They have received the severity of God. Sicknesses, depressions, oppressions, etc. It is not that God has put this on them, it is that they have removed themselves from Him and opened up themselves to the enemy.

There are many verses and passages in the bible that show clearly that once saved always saved is a myth, and it is not good for anyone to read what you want into the bible to make it fit what you want it to say. It is not good for the person doing it and it is not good for anyone who hears what they have to say.

Is it true that if you live the way God wants you to live that you will be saved forever? Of course it is true. God loves His obedient children and will reward them.

It is also easier to accept other false teachings if you already base your doctrine on false teaching. Since a person is willing to make things fit what they believe, it may not be very difficult to do more of the same.

In Romans 12 we are admonished to be transformed by the renewing of our minds that we may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

You made the statement that God changes us along our walk (paraphrase). Not most Christians. To be changed is the work of the Holy Spirit and the word of God. The word of God, if is taken for actually what it says and not forced into what one wants it to say, is part of the answer. The Holy Spirit is the rest of the answer, and He can only work within the parameters of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

If our faith is something other that this, (and most Christians have their faith in something else), than they enter into law. You can only have grace or law, there is no in-between. God drew the line of demarcation. The Holy Spirit will try to get us back to the truth and maybe He will be able to do a little here and there. For the most part, these Christians will stagnate or get worse off. I’m speaking here about Christians who love God, but either they don’t know the truth, or if they did hear it, they may be holding on to what they always thought was right.

All of this can be avoided with the simplicity of the gospel. It is simple and at the same time it is deep.

I’ve been very busy this week, getting in pretty late. I’m working tomorrow as well, so my gathering of verses to back up what I’ve saying may take a little longer. Thanks for your patience Mark and God bless.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:41 pm

I think different people can perceive different songs in different ways.

A song that draws your heart towards sin, might do something different for someone else and I think it's up to us to be on guard and pay attention to the spirit we chose to dwell on.

Example, when I was younger I was convinced that I didn't like Christian music, but when REO Speedwagon would come on I would sing that song to the Lord and it became a worship song to me.

Another example, when I'm at work I'm forced to listen to secular music, so when a love song comes on, I sing iyto the Lord in my mind. And it becomes a worship song.

Christians are notorious for being overly righteous in an attempt to stay holy. We have to be on guard.

For me, Ive never noticed a foul spirit when listening to Jesus culture but if I did, I would turn it off.

I've also never noticed a problem with lights and smoke in church causing me to sin, although sometimes the smoke bothers my asthma lol
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jun 09, 2018 4:58 am

Wise words, EC!
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:51 am

mark s wrote:Hi SCB,

One thing I was just thinking about, the passage that really started my on my discovery of the overwhelming truth of the Gospel - the Good News - was Colossians 3.

This is a prophecy, that all who were raised with Christ, have died with Him, and will appear with Him when He appears. This would be the "born again", defined in Roman's 6.

If this is true - and it must be - then all who have been born again will appear with Christ when He appears.

There is no qualifier to this prophecy. All who have been born again will be there. Every last one.

Which means to me that none of these other things are of any effect on whether or not we will be with Christ in the end. Only whether or not we are born again, born of God, through trusting in Jesus. Only that counts.

Which means to me that whether we sin or not, ask forgiveness or not, these do not determine whether we will be there. Only rebirth.

Now, with that being said, I'll say something I've become fond of saying,

The Truth of the Gospel is that sin cannot separate us from God any longer, it no longer has that power. We have become united to God, and nothing can break that unity.

But the Reality of the Gospel is that when Jesus comes in to our lives, He starts changing things into the way He wants them. Slower in some, more obvious in others, but He never just leaves us the same.

Can it really be true that every last person who was born again will appear with Christ? The Bible declares it.

If that is true, what does it tell us about the scope and finality of God's forgiveness of our sins?

Romans tells us that even when we were God's enemies, still sinners, Jesus died for us, and reconciled us to God. God removed our sin before we even came to faith! Wild! But reconciled.

Much love!
Mark


That's it Mark! :a3:

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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:45 am

extravagantchristian wrote:
Another example, when I'm at work I'm forced to listen to secular music, so when a love song comes on, I sing iyto the Lord in my mind. And it becomes a worship song.


I finally figured that out a couple of weeks ago. There is a store I get lots of my food from that plays lots of the 80 and 90' love songs, all the stuff I remember. I hate getting caught up into it, but then I started singing them to God!
Yep!!

:grin:

Christians are notorious for being overly righteous in an attempt to stay holy. We have to be on guard.


Solomon wrote about that, not to be too righteous, or too evil. I think the point is not to be so "oh-so-holy" that you drain all the enjoyment from life. I guess the Pharisees should have been paying more attention!

I've also never noticed a problem with lights and smoke in church causing me to sin, although sometimes the smoke bothers my asthma lol


:lol:

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:46 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi Mark,

In your last post you bring once saved always saved into the mix. This may be a nice sentiment and a hopeful thought, but it is not bible.


Hi SCB,

Maybe a time saver . . . Any response concerning the reading of Colossians 3?

But regardless, I'll be happy to look at any Scriptures with you that you wish. I've spent literally hundreds of hours of study and research over this question alone - is rebirth permanent? I've looked at every verse I can find that people use to support their idea that it is not permanent. I find that none of them say that, and in fact, I've found the strongest support of a permanent rebirth in some of these passages as I examine context, grammar, and syntax.

And there is a real simplicity to the train of thought.

Salvation is of faith that it might be of grace alone, and that none may boast.

One sin cost all humanity all creation for all eternity. How can a single sin not count?

Who can know all of their sins? Telling people you're OK, when they ask "How are you?" and when you're not OK, is a lie. Do this habitually and it is habitual sin. That flash of impatience, irritation, condescension, when we should just be loving, is sin. And deep inside behind it all, envy and pride, mascarading behind so many faces, so subtle, even sometimes unknown, for years, until God shows us . . . So who can be saved?

Much Love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:03 pm

mark s wrote:Who can know all of their sins? Telling people you're OK, when they ask "How are you?" and when you're not OK, is a lie. Do this habitually and it is habitual sin. That flash of impatience, irritation, condescension, when we should just be loving, is sin. And deep inside behind it all, envy and pride, mascarading behind so many faces, so subtle, even sometimes unknown, for years, until God shows us . . . So who can be saved?


I remember discussing sin during men’s bible study in the last church we attended. It was somewhat like you are referring to. They were saying that it was always a sin to lie and I didn’t hold to that being true. The reason is because it is a matter of the heart when it comes to insignificant things such as saying that you’re ok when someone asks how you are, when you are feeling terrible. Or when your wife puts on a dress and she asks you how does it look? You say, ‘you look fine babe’, and really you’re thinking, ‘It is not all that great’.

Depending where my wife may be at the moment, she may need a kind word or a nice compliment, and if the dress looks ok, then I’m not going to be brutally honest.

On telling people that you are ok when you feel terrible, this is not a lie if you are living by faith. I’m doing fine because Jesus is on the throne and he hears all of my prayers.


I suppose there are many things we could look into Mark, but since you are willing to go anywhere I would like to focus on how Christians can move from grace to law without even realizing it.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:37 pm

I’m thinking it may be good to go over Romans 6 to establish what Paul was talking about. If we can see what the sin nature is and whether or not a Christian never has to deal with it again, or if it does not disappear forever.

I kind of liken the sin nature in comparison to the law of Moses in this way - just as the law of Moses didn’t disappear once Christians received Jesus as Lord and Savior, the sin nature doesn’t disappear when we receive the divine nature.

When we get saved and learn who we are in Christ, faith in Christ is the end of law for righteousness. We don’t need the law of Moses because for one thing, we can’t keep it within our own strength, and two, our faith justifies us and sanctifies us.

The law however, is holy, and it is a guideline. We have looked at Rom 7 where you posted about Paul saying, the things what I would I do not, and the things that I would not, that I do. So he says that with my mind I acknowledge that the law is holy and right, and I obey it with my mind, but I find that there is sin in my flesh. So I see law that when I would do good sin is present with me. Who will deliver me from this body of death?

But before we look at chapter 7 we should look at chapter 6 to see that when Paul is talking about ‘sin’, most of the time he is referring to the ‘sin nature’.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that Grace may abound? God forbid How shall we who are dead to sin ( the sin nature ), live any longer therein? Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ ( not water baptism, but baptized into Christ when we were saved ) were baptized into His death?

Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised from the dead by the Glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin ( or the sin nature ) ( the sin nature no longer rules in hearts and lives )

For he who is dead is freed from sin ( or sin nature ) ( really, Paul is referring to the sin nature here )
Now if we be dead with Christ we believe that we shall also live with Him.

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more death has no more dominion over Him. For in that He died, He died unto sin ( the sin nature ) once, ( He died to the sin nature once for all ) but in that He lives ( resurrection ) He lives unto God.

Likewise reckon you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin ( sin nature ) ( the sin nature is not dead, we are dead to the sin nature because we are in Christ, and our faith is in Him and what He did for us at the cross ). ( It is in a sense like the law of Moses in that the law is not dead, but if our faith is in Christ and Him crucified we are justified and no longer need the law ), but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin ( the sin nature ) therefore reign in you mortal body. ( This statement by Paul indicates that the sin nature can reign again in our mortal bodies. If it were not possible he would not have made this statement. He would have said something like, ‘Praise God, sin will never again reign in our mortal bodies’, That you should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin ( the sin nature ) but yield yourselves unto God. ( When we yield ourselves to the fact that we can not do anything without Jesus, when we humble ourselves by not putting our faith in things outside of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, we are yielding ourselves to Him and His grace. When we yield ourselves to faith in fasting, in prayer, in bible reading, in church attendance, we are yielding ourselves to things that we can do and these things become law to us, because we are working for righteousness ).

[If it is grace, it is no longer work, unless work is no longer work. If it is grace, I’m not working for it. I should know that I already have it because I believe correctly by putting my faith in the right object and the right focus.]

as those who are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin ( the sin nature ) shall not have dominion over you for you are not under the law but under grace.

[Again, if our leadership is religious, we will probably be religious as well, meaning that they work for righteousness. If this is the case, and it is the case in most of the church today, then we are living under the law. Probably not the law of Moses, but a law that we have made which is outside of God’s prescribed order. There is only one way to live a righteous life, one way where we can be spiritual and follow Jesus and be made like unto Him.

When we turn to works, whether it is immediately after we are saved, or weeks or months, or years later, and we place our faith in that, we have moved ourselves out of God’s grace and in to law.]

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey ( if we yield ourselves to works and place our faith in the doing of those things, even Christian disciplines, we become servants to those things ) whether of sin unto death ( whatsoever is not of faith is sin ) or of obedience unto righteousness? ( obedience to the one way )

But God be thanked, that you were the servants of sin ( the sin nature ), but you have obeyed form the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. ( There is a correct doctrine to obey. We should note here that the devil comes in to the church on the back of truth. If he showed up with obvious error who would he ever deceive? He is very cunning, but he generally plays to what the flesh likes. We tend toward working for righteousness. It is kind of in our DNA, and our pride has a lot to do with that ).

Being then made free from sin ( the sin nature ) you became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh, for as you have yielded your members servant to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. ( Again, Paul would not say this this way if it were not possible to get messed up. It is not automatic ).

For when you were servants of sin ( the sin nature ) you were free from righteousness. What fruit had you then in those things where of you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin ( the sin nature ) and become servants to God you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. ( This is contingent upon our holding to the correct doctrine which was given unto us, which is not grievous by the way. Actually, it is freedom and liberty to live under God’s grace. It is restful and peace and joy ).

For the wages of sin is death but he gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ( it is interesting that Paul uses the phrase, ‘wages of sin’. Wages has to do with work. We work and we get paid. Most Christians today work instead of letting God lead them and just resting in Him. And I think we should repeat this again that if we place our faith in anything other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified, we are sinning. We are under law and it will produce death if we continue in it ).

When we enter into law by placing our faith in other things, the sin nature will begin to take over and the law of Moses comes back in to effect in our lives. We are no longer living under grace by having our faith properly placed. If the sin nature has come in to effect, condemnation may come into the picture.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. So in this sense we may be confessing quite a bit, but we can still be in right standing by doing this. We are still not where God wants us to be however, which is free from the law of sin and death. I am speaking about one who has placed their faith incorrectly.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:06 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:
mark s wrote:Who can know all of their sins? Telling people you're OK, when they ask "How are you?" and when you're not OK, is a lie. Do this habitually and it is habitual sin. That flash of impatience, irritation, condescension, when we should just be loving, is sin. And deep inside behind it all, envy and pride, mascarading behind so many faces, so subtle, even sometimes unknown, for years, until God shows us . . . So who can be saved?


I remember discussing sin during men’s bible study in the last church we attended. It was somewhat like you are referring to. They were saying that it was always a sin to lie and I didn’t hold to that being true. The reason is because it is a matter of the heart when it comes to insignificant things such as saying that you’re ok when someone asks how you are, when you are feeling terrible. Or when your wife puts on a dress and she asks you how does it look? You say, ‘you look fine babe’, and really you’re thinking, ‘It is not all that great’.


Hi SBC,

Set lying aside.

Impatience. Am I an impatient person? Am I easily irritable? Do I worry? Do I feel better than others? Do I want things I don't have, and cannot within reason obtain?

My wife is late 50's like me. Lines, spots, some extra pounds, you know how people are. If I tell her she's beautiful, and I don't mean it, she knows it. She's no fool! But the fact is, I've learned over the years about real beauty. You can have all the "good looks" you want, but without the inner beauty of a loving and graceful spirit it is nothing, worthy of a postage stamp. A loving and graceful spirit transforms what man would call many things into the truest human beauty seen on the planet.

Why should I not tell her if I think she needs to pick a different dress? She's asking me for a reason. I don't know that anything is insignificant. Does God care what color shirt I wear today? I think He cares greatly about how it is I go about choosing.

To simplify the point as much as I am able, we are dead to the Law according to Scripture. Also according to the Scripture, it is the Law that condemns us. If we are dead to the Law, there is nothing more to condemn us. Dead to the Law is dead to the law. No Law. No rules. Nothing to separate us from God. Only God Himself living inside

If you want to base salvation, acceptance, and blessing from God as based on our performance, you who want to keep the law, do you not hear what the law says? Cast out the bondwoman! She will not inherit.

We can't say, this sin, that sin, it's OK if I'm sinning in faith. There is no such thing as sinning in faith . . . Sin separates us from God.

But I want my community to be healthy, so I want the people to lose weight, and I sell meats, sometimes so high in fats, so I rig the scale, trusting that God will use this trim a couple of pounds off of my customers, who will think they are eating a 2 lbs Porterhouse, but it will actually be smaller - healthier - an act of love!

God says He hates dishonest weights.

Which do I go by?

I have to go by God's word.

Even my best and most seemingly loving intentions, if contrary to God, well, who knows better, Him? Or Me? It must be Him! Any disobedience of any kind places myself above Him, my will over His. I make myself my god. This is how even the philanthropist remains depraved even in their philanthropy.

The beauty of the cross is that Jesus' death propitiated all of our sins. His sacrificial death provided an acceptable substitute. The Law is now done with us, and we are off of that rat race. We were condemned already, and every sin just buried us deeper.

But while the Law was a dispenser of death, the new covenant dispenses life, not because there is anything we have to do - that was the weakness of the law - we had a part to play - but because there is now nothing we have to do. Jesus did it all. Actually all of it.

To even suggest that we need to go back for fresh forgiveness for newly committed sins implies that God did not in fact reconcile humanity to Himself as 2 Corinthians 5 says He did. Other places too. If God reconciled us to Himself while we were still His enemies, how can we for a moment think that we are not reconciled now that we are His children?

At this point we'll part ways I think - receiving, we are reborn, and now God's family forever. Just as I'm my father's son, and that does not change, so now I am God's son, and that does not change. As I bore the nature of my earthly father, now I bear the nature of my heavenly Father.

It cannot be undone, because sin separates us from God, but now we're dead to the Law, so we cannot be convicted of any sin. Our sins are gone.

I believe your view is that can be undone.

I suppose there are many things we could look into Mark, but since you are willing to go anywhere I would like to focus on how Christians can move from grace to law without even realizing it.


Excellent!

I'd like to offer Galatians 3:10-12 (ESV)
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.


The way I see it, from this passage, and other places I read, we have two choices, to live by faith, or to live by law. I like this passage because it adds some definition to the whole concept.

"The one who does them shall live by them", referring to "all things written in the Book of the Law". James affirms, the Law is a unit. Either you keep the Law - in totality - or you are a lawbreaker.

"Shall live by them" does not refer to the observance of the ordinances. That is addressed in the first clause, "the one who does them." The one who keeps all the Law - the entire commandment - gets to live.

The righteous shall live by faith.

If we use the word construction of, the one who does them shall live by them, which is to say, the one who obeys all the commandments of God gets to live because he obeys them, if we apply this to the obverse, the righteous shall live by faith:

The one who is righteous gets to live because he believes. It's nothing we've done. We were condemned, now we are rescued. But based on our belief, nothing else.

The one who keeps the commandment gets to live because he acts in accordance with the commandment. It's what he does. He is not condemned, and does not need rescue.

Except of course only Jesus kept all the commandment, so only Jesus has the right to live. But He has extended it to us.

In His death we are made right with God. Justified.

We believe, we are righteous, we live. Faith. Grace. We trust in Jesus, and He gives us righteousness and salvation.

God tells us in Romans 5 that is is through faith in Jesus Christ that we enter into the grace in which we stand.

His grace is our element. Fish swim in the water, birds fly in the air, and we stand in grace.

And we are standing in that grace so long as we are trusting in Jesus.

We can fall from grace, by looking at anything else. Even ourselves!

Oh my! What happens when I do sin? Am I still justified in Christ? Or am I no longer justified?

I have to make myself right with God! Confess, and ask forgiveness, because if I don't I am separated from Him.

There is something I have to do! Get circumcised! Say rosaries, or whatever it is! Throw flowers into the river.

There was a man teaching in our church one night. He had no business being there at the pulpit, he was in the midst of a painful and difficult divorce. He told the people, Forgive, or your Father in Heaven will not forgive you! You've gotta just cast about, see who you need to forgive, and then go make it right with them. And then you can ask God to forgive you.

He had fallen from grace. He may have become angry, bitter, despondent, I don't know. But even after God told him that he was reconciled to God long before, and that nothing can ever separate him from the love of God in Christ Jesus, even still, he thought there was something more he needed to do.

He needed to figure out his sins. He needed to make amends. All well and good, so far as it is beneficial. And he needed to make it right with God. He had fallen from grace.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:03 pm

I think we need to look at sin in relation to whether it moves us from God’s grace, or we could say, from being saved.

When we are born again, we become new creatures in Christ. We are given a new nature, God’s divine nature, His Spirit. We enter into a brand new life and we are separated unto God, justified and holy.

A few days down the road we commit a sin. Does this separate us from God? No it doesn’t.

We should confess our sin to the Lord and receive forgiveness, but it doesn’t separate us.

Sin is the problem with men and women. Sin is generally worse than we perceive it to be. It is the reason why Jesus died on the cross. It was won and done. The grace that has been extended to us creates a lifestyle that is protected by what Jesus did at the cross. Our faith in Him and what He did is the component that keeps that lifestyle effectual. We were given one way of salvation and sanctification, and if we adhere to that nothing can separate us.

So as much of a problem as sin is, it is not the separator of grace. Again, sin should always be confessed. Sin is a powerful force and can lead to death, as James points out in his epistle. We don’t want to harbor unconfessed sin.

The thing which separates the Christian from grace is when he or she places their faith in something other than Jesus Christ and what He accomplished at the cross, period. God can not abide this. The Holy Spirit will try to bring us back to our first love, He will try to show us our error because He leads us into all truth, but if we have taken on a new fad and we are determined to follow it through, we can expect the consequences.

We will be living under law, and law is a tough taskmaster. It appeals to the religious because they are hypocrites to begin with. They don’t do want they say, they just want to sound good. Their lives are miserable for the most part, but when they look around and see other Christians living the same defeated lives they feel justified.

The only thing more powerful than sin is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. It has made us free from the law of sin and death. In order for us to walk in the most powerful law, our faith needs to be right.


mark s wrote:To even suggest that we need to go back for fresh forgiveness for newly committed sins implies that God did not in fact reconcile humanity to Himself as 2 Corinthians 5 says He did. Other places too. If God reconciled us to Himself while we were still His enemies, how can we for a moment think that we are not reconciled now that we are His children?


1st John 1:5
This then is the Message which we have heard of Him and declare unto you, that God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. But if we walk in the lIght, as He is in the Light, we have fellowship one with another and the Blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us, If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned we make Him a liar and His Word is not in us.

Ch 2
My Little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And fHe is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His Commandments.

There is a lot there, but I would like to point to the first verse in chapter 2. John previously is writing about sin and confessing sin, and the ‘grace revolution’ folks want to tell us that John is referring to the unsaved in these verses. Wrong.
Ch 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that you sin not.

He is writing his epistle to Christians, just like all the other books of the bible are. Men do not want to submit themselves to the one and only way that God has sanctioned for us to live by. They have to add something or take something away. The end of this will be their destruction.

Let’s look at never having to confess your sins. Let’s follow that logic in this sense. Since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, why does anyone need to come to Him to be saved? He already died for their sins. They could just say, yes I believe that He died for all of my sins. They don’t accept Him as Lord or Savior, don’t have a relationship with Him, but according to the logic given by the grace revolution folks, they would all be saved.

In 11 Cor 7:7 on, it reads, And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me so that I rejoiced the more. For though I made you sorry with the letter ( 1 Cor. ), I do not repent, though I did repent, for I perceive that the same epistle has made you sorry, though it were but for a season. ( they repented and the sorrow was lifted ).

Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that you sorrowed to repentance ( this is what was intended by the Holy Spirit ) For you were made sorry after a godly manner that you might receive damage by us in nothing. For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of, but the sorrow of the world works death.

For behold this selfsame thing, that you sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yes, what clearing of yourselves, yes, what indignation, yes, what fear, yes, what vehement desire, yes, what zeal, yes, what revenge. In all things you have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.


This is a another witness to the correct observance of repenting of our sins.

In Rev 2:18 on it reads, And to the Angel of the Church in Thyatira write, These things saith the Son of God, Who has His eyes like unto a flame of fire, and His feet are like fine brass. I know your works, and charity, and service, and faith, and your patience, and your works; and the last to be more than the first.

Notwithstanding I have a few things against you, because you suffer that woman Jezebel, which calls herself a Prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death, and all the churches will know that I am He which searches the reigns and hearts, and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. But that which you have already hold fast till I come, and he who overcomes, and keeps My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father. And I will give him the Morning Star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the Churches.


Jesus gives us space to repent of our sins. This is how and why we are not separated when we sin. If our faith is right, His grace is upon us and effectual. We are righteous in Him and justified. We should not however go on and on without repenting, asking Him for forgiveness, and adding more sin upon that sin. We will come to place where He will have to act.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:40 pm

sacredcowbasher wrote:
We should confess our sin to the Lord and receive forgiveness, but it doesn’t separate us.



The thing which separates the Christian from grace is when he or she places their faith in something other than Jesus Christ and what He accomplished at the cross, period. God can not abide this.


Hi SCB,

I have a couple of questions just to help clarify for me what you are saying.

How is it that sin needs to be forgiven, and yet does not separate us from God? Why the need for forgiveness?

Secondly,

What do you mean exactly when you say, "separates the Christian from grace"? Does this mean that the Christian, while remaining saved, loses God's favor? Does this mean the Christian is no longer a Christian? Does this mean that the Christian is no longer receiving ability from God to stand in His will, and resist sin?

I can think of more ways to understand this, I want to make sure I know how you mean it.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:00 pm

One other thing, I just read back through your response, but I'm not seeing anything responding to my presentation of 2 Corinthians 5. This may have been overlooked.

1 Corinthians 5:19 (ESV)
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.


There is another . . .

Romans 5:10 (ESV)
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.


Both of these passages tell us that we are already reconciled to God and that this reconciliation means that God is not counting our trespasses against us.

If we are already reconciled to God, if we have received that reconciliation, how is it that we still need forgiveness? Isn't that like sending the bank payments for a car that was paid off years ago?

Let’s look at never having to confess your sins. Let’s follow that logic in this sense. Since Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, why does anyone need to come to Him to be saved? He already died for their sins. They could just say, yes I believe that He died for all of my sins. They don’t accept Him as Lord or Savior, don’t have a relationship with Him, but according to the logic given by the grace revolution folks, they would all be saved.


If that is what they are teaching, well, I don't believe in universalism, that all humanity is automatically saved.

Yes, Jesus said that all sins would be forgiven men except calling the Holy Spirit bad names. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Saying it is an evil spirit, like the Pharisees were doing.

But Jesus also said that you cannot see the kingdom of God unless you are born again. Being forgiven isn't enough. Receiving the forgiveness by itself does not save you. You can be forgiven, but dead.

You must be born again.

And to as many as received Him, believing in His Name, to them God gave the right to be born again, not born by, of, or from man, but born of God. (Mark's Paraphrase)

God tells us in Hebrews 10:17-18, that there is no more sacrifice for sins that have been forgiven.

It's all done.

OK . . . let's say . . .

You are correct in what you say, and your interpretations of the verses posted, and that 1 John 1:9 means that if I sin today as a Christian, I need to confess so I can be forgiven, be cleansed, and receive righteousness. As a Christian, ongoing through my life. Let's say you are correct that a "lifestyle of sin", being outside of faith in Christ, will take us away from salvation, and, though we had been born again, we die again.

Is this right so far? Is this a fair representation? If you would re-word this to make it more correct please do. Like I've said before, I like to be careful that I'm actually responding to the correct point. Silly to not!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:39 pm

11 Cor 5
For we know that if our earthly house of this Tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven. If so e that being clothed we shall not be found naked, For we who are in this Tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now He Who has wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who also has given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent form the Lord: ( For we walk by faith, not by sight ) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Wherefore we labor that, whether percent or absent, we may be accepted of Him. For we must all appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done n his body, according to that he has done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that you may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God; or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

For the Love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again. Werefore henceforth know we no man after the fish; yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, Who has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and has given to us the Ministry of Reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you, be you reconciled to God. For He has made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.


This is powerful stuff, as all of Paul writings are where he is establishing the truth of what God did through Jesus Christ at the cross. What it means for those who are His. Who we have become in Him.

I think we need to make a distinction between the established facts of what Jesus wrought at Calvary, the absolute truth of it, the immutability of it, meaning that it forever the truth and cannot be changed, and what happens to a believer when they place their faith outside of God’s prescribed order, which would make Jesus’ death at the cross in vain.

I’m referring to our ongoing walk with Christ and not our initial salvation experience. We basically had to come in right or we never have been saved. That is a given. Where we get off track is the walking out of our salvation. Often times we choose incorrectly where we place our faith, and it throws a wrench into the cogs of justification by faith.

Romans 5:12 shows the love of God through His Son in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us, how much more having been reconciled, shall we be saved by His life.

This speaks again, to the immutability of what was accomplished at the cross. The greatest event in all of human history. The testator died to put the inheritance into effect, and He is raised to everlasting life to ensure that it will never be changed.

Where those go wrong, in my opinion, who hold to never being able to lose one’s salvation, is that they look at what God did, the beauty of it, the love of it, the power of it, the perfection of it, and they conclude that once one is saved, they can never loose their salvation. While it is true that Christians who live by that doctrine that was given unto us by Paul, will never be moved, as long as we abide in it, the contrary is also true.

Jesus Himself said, Straight is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it. He also said, many are called, but few are chosen.

The king found someone at his son’s wedding feast who was not dressed for it. The king had ordered for anyone who was invited to come. God to the hedges and byways and compel them to come.

The man who was thrown out represents one that doesn’t have the correct righteousness. In Matt 22:12, And he said unto him, Friend, how did you think you could come in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called but few are chosen.

This man was dressed in self-righteousness, not in Christ’s. The thing is that, Christians need to maintain their faith in Christ and what He did at the cross. When we place our faith in other places, we lose our righteousness in Christ, and we go about to establish our own righteousness by works. Thank God for His mercy and that He winked at sin for a time because of ignorance. But when the light comes and shines its truth, God will no longer wink at that sin. He is going to judge it, and we should thank Him that He loves us enough to spank us and correct us so we will not be destroyed.


On what the grace revolution folks teach, I don’t think they teach universalism. I brought that up to reason together about what can happen when we leave things out of the word of God. Why can’t sinners conclude that they don’t need to receive Jesus, they just need to believe that He died for their sins, based on the type of grace teachings that is coming out of GR camp, which is, Christians don’t need to confess their sins, and that the Holy Spirit doesn’t convict Christians of sin.

On what I believe to be what the bible teaches: You almost have it right what I am trying to say, but where you say, and receive righteousness. In context, ask forgiveness, receive cleansing, receive righteousness.

We do ask for forgiveness and receive it, we do receive cleansing, but we are already righteous in Christ. What happens when we confess our sin or sins, is that we cleansed of all unrighteousness.

mark s wrote:Secondly,

What do you mean exactly when you say, "separates the Christian from grace"? Does this mean that the Christian, while remaining saved, loses God's favor? Does this mean the Christian is no longer a Christian? Does this mean that the Christian is no longer receiving ability from God to stand in His will, and resist sin?

I can think of more ways to understand this, I want to make sure I know how you mean it.


When we fall from grace, there is going to be a time, a space, where God is going to try to get our attention. We are still Christians because of His goodness and mercy. As for as losing God’s favor, that could be part of what happens when our faith is misplaced. If a Christian remains in a fallen from grace state, the time period being in God’s hands, he will become religious and dry, and probably somewhat mean. He will become apostate, not having a relationship with the Lord. If there are others in his church like himself, he will probably remain in church going through the motions with no life.

It is where we get the term, that church is dead.

So, you had it pretty close as to what I am trying to convey.

God bless.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:09 pm

So then . . . we are righteous . . . and we need to be forgiven. That seems like a contradiction to me.

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby extravagantchristian on Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:32 pm

SCB

Are you saying that God would spank us if our faith is weak?

A lot of Christians wrestle with feelings of condemnation and their faith suffers as a result but that doesn't always mean that they have fallen or "lost their garment"

I don't think God judges us based on our faith, I think He judges us based on our commitment to Him.

If we love Him we will keep His commandments. It's really simple.

He knows if we have given up or if we are still committed.

Faith is our assurance of what we hope for. We hope that God is for us. That He is smiling on us. But even if we lose our faith, and even if we feel like God is mad at us, that doesn't mean that He is. Our feelings are not always a good indicator of where we stand with God. Our minds are fragile and they can lie to us.

1 John 3
20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.


Like Peter, our faith may fail, but His love never fails.

Also, if you tell someone that they have lost their garment because their faith has been weak for too long, that would only further injure their faith. That's not helpful at all. It's like kicking someone while their already down.

These are the types of people who need encouragement and confidence.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:26 am

mark s wrote:So then . . . we are righteous . . . and we need to be forgiven. That seems like a contradiction to me.

Much love!
mark


That is correct Mark. We are positionally righteous in Christ, and that doesn’t change because we sin, but we do need to ask for forgiveness of our sins.

There is a difference between sinning and placing our faith in something other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified. While it is a sin to place our faith in something else, it also causes us to move from right standing with God as far as our being under grace, and moves us to being under law.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:47 am

extravagantchristian wrote:SCB

Are you saying that God would spank us if our faith is weak?

A lot of Christians wrestle with feelings of condemnation and their faith suffers as a result but that doesn't always mean that they have fallen or "lost their garment"

I don't think God judges us based on our faith, I think He judges us based on our commitment to Him.

If we love Him we will keep His commandments. It's really simple.

He knows if we have given up or if we are still committed.

Faith is our assurance of what we hope for. We hope that God is for us. That He is smiling on us. But even if we lose our faith, and even if we feel like God is mad at us, that doesn't mean that He is. Our feelings are not always a good indicator of where we stand with God. Our minds are fragile and they can lie to us.

1 John 3
20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God.


Like Peter, our faith may fail, but His love never fails.

Also, if you tell someone that they have lost their garment because their faith has been weak for too long, that would only further injure their faith. That's not helpful at all. It's like kicking someone while their already down.

These are the types of people who need encouragement and confidence.


Hi EC, No, I’m not saying that God will spank us if our faith is weak. It’s when we place our faith is anything other than Christ and Him crucified. There are many things that Christians place their faith in that they think are legitimate, such as bible reading, prayer, fasting, church attendance. These would be the Christian disciplines that are all great to do and necessary, but our faith should never be in them. Then there are other things like placing our faith in our own ability, our talents, our intellect, our skills. Thank God that He gives us these things, but we should never place our faith in them.

There is only one place where God meets with man and where man meets with God, and that is at the cross. This is where our sins are forgiven. Jesus went to the cross one time, but we go every day to have fellowship with God, to pray, to praise Him, and to ask for forgiveness.

The blood of Jesus gives us strength each and every day because it puts us under His grace, or in His grace, however you want to say it. This is how we are elevated. He will take us out of the shadows and place our feet on higher ground, and it is all because we place our faith in Jesus and what He did. He receives the glory this way, we do not.

When Abraham’s faith was accounted to him for righteousness, it was because he believed that God would do what He said. He did get out of order with God when he and Sarah tried to produce a child in their own strength. In their own way, they thought this might be the will of God. They still loved God with all of their hearts, but their faith at that point was being tested because of the years that were passing by and still no child. They jumped the gun so to speak, and came up with their own plan. We do the same thing. I can tell you of an example of my doing the same thing.

I wanted to correct something that you said though. Peter’s faith never did fail him. Remember when Jesus told him that he was going to fail Him and that the cock would crow and he would ld deny Him three times? Jesus said, I have prayed for you, that your faith fail not.

So Peter did fail, yes, but it was not his faith that failed, it was his weakness in not being able to stand for Christ.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby extravagantchristian on Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:56 am

I meant that Peter's faith failed when he was walking on water.
Matthew 1:22
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:01 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:
mark s wrote:So then . . . we are righteous . . . and we need to be forgiven. That seems like a contradiction to me.

Much love!
mark


That is correct Mark. We are positionally righteous in Christ, and that doesn’t change because we sin, but we do need to ask for forgiveness of our sins.

There is a difference between sinning and placing our faith in something other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified. While it is a sin to place our faith in something else, it also causes us to move from right standing with God as far as our being under grace, and moves us to being under law.


Hi SCB,

What other than Christ would the Christian place their faith in? Can you give a couple of examples?

I don't understand how the contradiction is removed. Even if we are solely "Positionally Righteous", I term I do not find in Scripture, then why, having the "imputation of righteousness", would we need to be forgiven? Having been declared innocent, why is our requirement as though we were guilty?

Also, what does this verse mean?

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
. . . and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:02 pm

Ephesians 4:29 (YLT)

Let no corrupt word out of your mouth go forth, but what is good unto the needful building up, that it may give grace to the hearers.


This verse has hung on my bedroom wall for about 2 months now, part of the set I read continually. But a couple of nights ago something struck me that I hadn't realized. It's amazing how we can read a verse a certain way, and then . . .

I've taken this verse as an admonition that I be careful that everything I say brings grace to those who hear, and that the hearing of the message of grace builds up those who hear it. I'm not saying that's wrong.

It occurred to me . . .

Every word from my mouth should be towards what's needed to build people up so that they can come into the full life of God's grace.

My words are to build people up, so that this building will impart grace to them.

I don't know the doctrine of those who take the name "Grace Revolution", but, as far as getting an understanding of God's grace back into the church, I for one would love to see that revolution sweep away the legalism everywhere.

Unfortunately, so long as OT theology of our continued performance being required to keep us right with God is mixed with the NT theology that Jesus has made us - forever - right with God, so long as these are mingled, legalism is the inevitable result. I just don't see any way around that.

If it's on me, then I'd better be current on the rules and current on doing my part. Or God help me!

We need to have a true understanding of Scripture so that we can remove the conflicts.

So long as we believe the Bible tells us we have to keep confessing sins so that we can receive fresh forgiveness, then there will be an irreconcilable conflict with Scriptures that tell us we are already reconciled to God.

Can it really be both ways? That we are reconciled to God, even before we were born, even while we were His enemies? And at the same time, having become His actual children, we are somehow NOT reconciled to Him?

You may respond that it's not Him, it's us, and we walk away. I would reply that any rejection of God or His ways is simply "works of the flesh", condemned, powerless in the end, and crucified. I'm dead to the flesh, but if I'm not busy living God's life, the flesh will live it's life. Until I retake control of my members.

But I truly believe that when we've not lived His will for us, all He really wants to see is our smiling faces, returning immediately to Joy and Rejoicing, having once again stopped all of that nonsense. I usually want to tell Him I'm sorry!

So long as we believe that salvation can be lost, we will have irreconcilable conflicts with Scriptures that speak of us possessing eternal life, never dying, appearing with Jesus, so many Scriptures that can only be true if rebirth is forever.

But what if we understand those verses are actually true, and do not conflict with God's admonitions to not be fooled into thinking we've not sinned, that we need to get right with God, that if we confess, God will forgive?

You can act like a Christian, hang out with Christians, like Christian radio, but if you think you don't have a sin problem, then you're wrong, and you make out God to be a liar.

But if you will just admit it, agree with God that you've sinned, all is forgiven, all is cleansed, all is made new. We have escaped from corruption. We are new people. Righteous people. Holy people. Stuck in a corrupt body. Which wants for us to believe that in some way, some how, it can exert power over us, make us behave in ways incompatible with the Bible. But it has no such power. When we find we've let the flesh have it's way, we just shut it down and get on with life, life in Jesus, rejoicing that He has given us such a great forgiveness, and for me, reminded just how much better His way is.

It says that God is "Just" to forgive. Why would that be? What possible legal requirement could there be for God to forgive?

The one that I can think of would be if it was already paid, and simply needed to be applied. Let's say you owe my company a bill. Someone else sends in a check on your behalf. The payment is applied as a credit to your account. So you have bill, and you have a credit. You walk in the door, and request I apply the credit to the bill. You hand me the invoice, and I stamp it, "Paid in Full". To deny this would be wrong, unjust. It would be failure to give you what was rightfully yours.

Let's say you never present the invoice, never apply the credit, when you die, you owe the bill. God adds a term, offer good during earth life only. Upon death, your invoice is payable in full.

Was the original forgiveness only for sins committed up to the time of initial repentance? Does God dole out forgiveness in small portions? Jesus died only once, therefore, all payment for all sin for all humanity for all time was accomplished on that one day, during that one hour, by that one man, through a single act of sacrifice.

If we understand that having trusted in Jesus, we are forgiven and cleansed of all sin and corruption as we are dead and resurrected, once sons and daughters of Adam, now the glorious children of God, we can understand how the Law, given for the ungodly and the sinner, is left behind in that old life, same as sin, and the same as condemnation.

The old man was corrupt, was judged guilty, sentenced to death, nailed to a cross, where he died. He was buried in a hole in a rock. He did not come out.

An new man came out. Me. You. Having trusted in Jesus.

And it's through faith in Jesus that we enter into the grace in which we stand.

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:12 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:I meant that Peter's faith failed when he was walking on water.


Ok, sorry EC, my bad :mrgreen:

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:11 pm

Hi Mark,

There are many things that Christians place their faith in that they think are legitimate, such as bible reading, prayer, fasting, church attendance. These would be the Christian disciplines that are all great to do and necessary, but our faith should never be in them. Then there are other things like placing our faith in our own ability, our talents, our intellect, our skills. Thank God that He gives us these things, but we should never place our faith in them.

We could place our faith in the pastor, or our denomination, we could come up with some formula or routine that we place our faith in. All of these things amount to us trying to develop our own righteousness. We are trying to become better in our own way or strength. We aren’t resting in Him and allowing the Holy Spirit to help us with the sanctifying process. He comes along side of us and comforts us, leads us into all truth, ( and part of this is His showing us our sins, convicting us of them, because we almost never see them without His help. When we see them with an honest heart, we admit to them and we are humbled. We also grow more into the image of His Son with this process ).

Self righteousness will be the result of us trying to improve ourselves by putting our faith in anything other than Jesus Christ and what He accomplished at the cross. The church is full of self righteous folks; judgmental to some degree, and usually mean to some degree. I was one of them, although I would like to think I wasn’t as bad as some, but no matter where you are on the scale of self righteousness, you are missing the mark.

No one taught me how to live this life out, so we came up with things that worked best for us. Some did this and some did that. all of it resulted in failure. Fads of many kinds have passed through the church in my lifetime. My wife and I even joined a Christian Community in Tennessee for about 4 months which was nearly devastating. I had bought into what a false prophet was preaching. But through it all, I learned to trust in Jesus, and I’m still learning.

mark s wrote:
Ephesians 4:29 (YLT)

Let no corrupt word out of your mouth go forth, but what is good unto the needful building up, that it may give grace to the hearers.


This verse has hung on my bedroom wall for about 2 months now, part of the set I read continually. But a couple of nights ago something struck me that I hadn't realized. It's amazing how we can read a verse a certain way, and then . . .

I've taken this verse as an admonition that I be careful that everything I say brings grace to those who hear, and that the hearing of the message of grace builds up those who hear it. I'm not saying that's wrong.

It occurred to me . . .

Every word from my mouth should be towards what's needed to build people up so that they can come into the full life of God's grace.

My words are to build people up, so that this building will impart grace to them.

I don't know the doctrine of those who take the name "Grace Revolution", but, as far as getting an understanding of God's grace back into the church, I for one would love to see that revolution sweep away the legalism everywhere.

Unfortunately, so long as OT theology of our continued performance being required to keep us right with God is mixed with the NT theology that Jesus has made us - forever - right with God, so long as these are mingled, legalism is the inevitable result. I just don't see any way around that.

If it's on me, then I'd better be current on the rules and current on doing my part. Or God help me!

We need to have a true understanding of Scripture so that we can remove the conflicts.

So long as we believe the Bible tells us we have to keep confessing sins so that we can receive fresh forgiveness, then there will be an irreconcilable conflict with Scriptures that tell us we are already reconciled to God.

Can it really be both ways? That we are reconciled to God, even before we were born, even while we were His enemies? And at the same time, having become His actual children, we are somehow NOT reconciled to Him?

You may respond that it's not Him, it's us, and we walk away. I would reply that any rejection of God or His ways is simply "works of the flesh", condemned, powerless in the end, and crucified. I'm dead to the flesh, but if I'm not busy living God's life, the flesh will live it's life. Until I retake control of my members.

But I truly believe that when we've not lived His will for us, all He really wants to see is our smiling faces, returning immediately to Joy and Rejoicing, having once again stopped all of that nonsense. I usually want to tell Him I'm sorry!

So long as we believe that salvation can be lost, we will have irreconcilable conflicts with Scriptures that speak of us possessing eternal life, never dying, appearing with Jesus, so many Scriptures that can only be true if rebirth is forever.

But what if we understand those verses are actually true, and do not conflict with God's admonitions to not be fooled into thinking we've not sinned, that we need to get right with God, that if we confess, God will forgive?

You can act like a Christian, hang out with Christians, like Christian radio, but if you think you don't have a sin problem, then you're wrong, and you make out God to be a liar.

But if you will just admit it, agree with God that you've sinned, all is forgiven, all is cleansed, all is made new. We have escaped from corruption. We are new people. Righteous people. Holy people. Stuck in a corrupt body. Which wants for us to believe that in some way, some how, it can exert power over us, make us behave in ways incompatible with the Bible. But it has no such power. When we find we've let the flesh have it's way, we just shut it down and get on with life, life in Jesus, rejoicing that He has given us such a great forgiveness, and for me, reminded just how much better His way is.

It says that God is "Just" to forgive. Why would that be? What possible legal requirement could there be for God to forgive?

The one that I can think of would be if it was already paid, and simply needed to be applied. Let's say you owe my company a bill. Someone else sends in a check on your behalf. The payment is applied as a credit to your account. So you have bill, and you have a credit. You walk in the door, and request I apply the credit to the bill. You hand me the invoice, and I stamp it, "Paid in Full". To deny this would be wrong, unjust. It would be failure to give you what was rightfully yours.

Let's say you never present the invoice, never apply the credit, when you die, you owe the bill. God adds a term, offer good during earth life only. Upon death, your invoice is payable in full.

Was the original forgiveness only for sins committed up to the time of initial repentance? Does God dole out forgiveness in small portions? Jesus died only once, therefore, all payment for all sin for all humanity for all time was accomplished on that one day, during that one hour, by that one man, through a single act of sacrifice.

If we understand that having trusted in Jesus, we are forgiven and cleansed of all sin and corruption as we are dead and resurrected, once sons and daughters of Adam, now the glorious children of God, we can understand how the Law, given for the ungodly and the sinner, is left behind in that old life, same as sin, and the same as condemnation.

The old man was corrupt, was judged guilty, sentenced to death, nailed to a cross, where he died. He was buried in a hole in a rock. He did not come out.

An new man came out. Me. You. Having trusted in Jesus.

And it's through faith in Jesus that we enter into the grace in which we stand.

Much love!
mark

I hear what you are saying about the goodness of getting grace teachings in the church and moving legalism out, but we should be careful that we don’t swing on that proverbial pendulum that we often times swing on. One is as bad as the other if it way off balance, which is why Paul says many times, ‘should we then sin that grace may abound’? Because men will no doubt take it too far if their faith is in the wrong thing.

One way to resolve the conflict over confessing sin or not having to confess our sin, is to take a stand on one of them and live it out. You will have to commit to at least one year probably because there is the devil on the one hand which will do his best to deceive us, and there may be God trying to intervene on the other hand, and we would have to discern what is what. That takes some time. For me, the message of the cross for sanctification is a simple truth, It is part of the gospel message. There is salvation through he cross, and there is sanctification through the cross. Ok, I know I didn’t mention forgiveness, I was trying to keep it simple :cheeky:

We do need to be fully persuaded in our own minds as to how to live out this life we were given. Give the Lord some time to convince you of it, and make sure it is Him. He will not be unhappy about that, but rather the opposite. I know that He loves your tenacity and how you challenge everything to see whether it is right or not. I respect you for it.

When this message came to me, I was wanting more. I was always wanting more because when I was born again I was so completely changed that I was out to make a million dollars and live this brand new life out to the full. Well, I didn’t read the bible or pray and when my world started to fall apart, I began to read a book by Carl Young, I think his name was. He was a well known shrink. That is how stupid I was.

But the taste that Jesus put in my mouth was so unforgettable, you almost feel like a Salmon swimming back to its spawning ground. You are passionate about it and determined to get there.

So I have been through many tossings and driven by some turbulent waves and I think I have landed in the place of That Doctrine. That form of doctrine that was given to Paul’s flock. It all came together for me, it made sense; and during the first or second week of receiving it, I had a day where I felt born again all over again.

Since then, it just keeps getting better spiritually speaking. All of the sacrifices in the old covenant makes sense to me. The focus was to be on the sacrifice, not the doing of it. It all points to what happened at the cross. It puts God in control of everything. He is in the front driving, and I am sitting in the back seat. He is taking me somewhere, and I don’t know where that is, but I trust Him.

The new testament makes more sense to me, and I would like to get back to reading it more. I’ve been in the old for some time now, in 1 Cron. now. Hopefully that will happen soon. Another thing is that I wind up praying about things more when I need to make a decision.

But getting back to confession of sins: One thing I can see in God asking us to do this, is that it humbles us. We are humbling ourselves when we do this. 11 Cron 7:14 If My people who are called by My Name will humble themselves and pray, and seek My Face, and turn from their wicked ways .... This is old testament, but it applies to today as well.

Also I think it would be god to establish the fact that the bible teaches that our bodies will be quickened. In Rom 7:21 - 8:14 it reads, I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the Law of God after the inward man: But I see another Law in my members, warring against the Law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the Law of sin which is in my members.

O wretched man that i am! Who shall deliver God; but with the flesh the Law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the Law of Sin and Death. For what the Law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the Righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk to after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they who are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they who are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit,

For to be carnally minded is death; but to be Spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of Righteousness.

But if the Spirit of Him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He who raised up Christ form the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit Who dwells in you.
( I wanted to bring this verse out.)

Therefore, Brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit fo mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Paul establishes the truth of how we are justified in Christ, even though our flesh is contrary, and will always be to some degree. However, we see in verse 11 of ch 8 in Romans that His Spirit will quicken our mortal bodies. That power that He speaks of that raised Jesus from the dead can be viewed as His grace as well. Grace can be defined as the goodness of God given to underving man. What is that Goodness? It is power or ability beyond what we could ever produce.

So there is hope on this side of Heaven that we will be endued with power from on high, believe it with all of your heart, because it is more real than we can imagine. I am not walking in that power today, and I have testified to that several times on this board. However, I know that it is coming, because it is part and parcel of the new covenant. It is ours in Christ, it says so in Romans 8:11 and other places as well.

The thing about it is this. He wants to prepare us so that when it happens we can receive it. We can be the new wine skin that receives the new wine and does not burst and spill out what was put in. New wine put in old wine skins will burst, so allow God to prepare us; and He will use us for His glory.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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