A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

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A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby st louis steve on Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:56 am

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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby st louis steve on Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:59 am

http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com ... ssage.html March 07, 2009
March 07, 2009
AN URGENT MESSAGE

I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to send out an urgent message to all on our mailing list, and to friends and to bishops we have met all over the world.

AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE - EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US.

For ten years I have been warning about a thousand fires coming to New York City. It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. Major cities all across America will experience riots and blazing fires—such as we saw in Watts, Los Angeles, years ago.

There will be riots and fires in cities worldwide. There will be looting—including Times Square, New York City. What we are experiencing now is not a recession, not even a depression. We are under God’s wrath. In Psalm 11 it is written,

“If the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?” (v. 3).

God is judging the raging sins of America and the nations. He is destroying the secular foundations.

The prophet Jeremiah pleaded with wicked Israel, “God is fashioning a calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh, turn back each of you from your evil way, and reform your ways and deeds. But they will say, It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart” (Jeremiah 18:11-12).

In Psalm 11:6, David warns, “Upon the wicked he will rain snares (coals of fire)…fire…burning wind…will be the portion of their cup.” Why? David answered, “Because the Lord is righteous” (v. 7). This is a righteous judgment—just as in the judgments of Sodom and in Noah’s generation.

WHAT SHALL THE RIGHTEOUS DO? WHAT ABOUT GOD’S PEOPLE?

First, I give you a practical word I received for my own direction. If possible lay in store a thirty-day supply of non-perishable food, toiletries and other essentials. In major cities, grocery stores are emptied in an hour at the sign of an impending disaster.

As for our spiritual reaction, we have but two options. This is outlined in Psalm 11. We “flee like a bird to a mountain.” Or, as David says, “He fixed his eyes on the Lord on his throne in heaven—his eyes beholding, his eyelids testing the sons of men” (v. 4). “In the Lord I take refuge” (v. 1).

I will say to my soul: No need to run...no need to hide. This is God’s righteous work. I will behold our Lord on his throne, with his eye of tender, loving kindness watching over every step I take—trusting that he will deliver his people even through floods, fires, calamities, tests, trials of all kinds.

Note: I do not know when these things will come to pass, but I know it is not far off. I have unburdened my soul to you. Do with the message as you choose.

God bless and keep you,

In Christ,

DAVID WILKERSON
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby mark s on Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:11 pm

st louis steve wrote:h
March 07, 2009
AN URGENT MESSAGE

I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to send out an urgent message to all on our mailing list, and to friends and to bishops we have met all over the world.

AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE - EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US.

For ten years I have been warning about a thousand fires coming to New York City. It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. Major cities all across America will experience riots and blazing fires—such as we saw in Watts, Los Angeles, years ago.

There will be riots and fires in cities worldwide. There will be looting—including Times Square, New York City. What we are experiencing now is not a recession, not even a depression. We are under God’s wrath.

Note: I do not know when these things will come to pass, but I know it is not far off.


For 10 years he warned urgently about these fires and riots and all. This was 11 years ago.

Urgent warning.
"I know it is not far off"

How long is "not far off"?

How urgent is "urgent"? 20 years?

The 2008 Recession . . . The wrath of God?

Is this really prophecy?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:41 pm

mark s wrote:
st louis steve wrote:h
March 07, 2009
AN URGENT MESSAGE

I am compelled by the Holy Spirit to send out an urgent message to all on our mailing list, and to friends and to bishops we have met all over the world.

AN EARTH-SHATTERING CALAMITY IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN. IT IS GOING TO BE SO FRIGHTENING, WE ARE ALL GOING TO TREMBLE - EVEN THE GODLIEST AMONG US.

For ten years I have been warning about a thousand fires coming to New York City. It will engulf the whole megaplex, including areas of New Jersey and Connecticut. Major cities all across America will experience riots and blazing fires—such as we saw in Watts, Los Angeles, years ago.

There will be riots and fires in cities worldwide. There will be looting—including Times Square, New York City. What we are experiencing now is not a recession, not even a depression. We are under God’s wrath.

Note: I do not know when these things will come to pass, but I know it is not far off.


For 10 years he warned urgently about these fires and riots and all. This was 11 years ago.

Urgent warning.
"I know it is not far off"

How long is "not far off"?

How urgent is "urgent"? 20 years?

The 2008 Recession . . . The wrath of God?

Is this really prophecy?

I don't think so
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 20, 2020 5:50 pm

st louis steve wrote:http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/urgent-message.html March 07, 2009
March 07, 2009
AN URGENT MESSAGE .............................................

God is judging the raging sins of America and the nations. He is destroying the secular foundations.




God has already judged man's sins once for all on the Cross. And under the New Covenant, the children of God
have no sin.

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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:22 pm

Not a huge fan of Perry Stone, I guess it still remains to be seen if his "vision" was from God.

RT
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby member x on Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:30 am

Sonbeam wrote:
st louis steve wrote:http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/urgent-message.html March 07, 2009
March 07, 2009
AN URGENT MESSAGE .............................................

God is judging the raging sins of America and the nations. He is destroying the secular foundations.




God has already judged man's sins once for all on the Cross. And under the New Covenant, the children of God
have no sin.

sonbeam


Thank you for posting this. All judgment was given over to Christ. We are not appointed to Gods wrath.
We are chastised by God.

I struggle with people saying that God is judging us. I do believe this may be a warning for us to get right with God.
We need to be in relationship with him, not lip service of Him. We need to worship Him, not just think about it. We need to be in His word daily. We need Him as the center of our lives.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby member x on Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:35 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Not a huge fan of Perry Stone, I guess it still remains to be seen if his "vision" was from God.

RT


I’m torn on Perry Stone. I do think he loves the Lord.
He clearly studies.
Without pointing out all that concerns me, I think we should pray for him.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Jericho on Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:01 am

Even if it is true, it doesn't necessarily mean it could happen at this time. God doesn't judge the unbelievers along with the believers, otherwise it wouldn't be just. We've seen plenty of examples of that: Lot, Noah, the Hebrews in Goshen, etc. So for God to judge, the believers have to be separated from the unbelievers in some way. It's one of the reasons I'm still pre-trib. Once this age of grace ends, then God will judge the world.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:17 am

Jericho wrote:Even if it is true, it doesn't necessarily mean it could happen at this time. God doesn't judge the unbelievers along with the believers, otherwise it wouldn't be just. We've seen plenty of examples of that: Lot, Noah, the Hebrews in Goshen, etc. So for God to judge, the believers have to be separated from the unbelievers in some way. It's one of the reasons I'm still pre-trib. Once this age of grace ends, then God will judge the world.


Hi Jericho,

Does this mean that you believe the period of the tribulation is a judgment from God upon the world, therefore
the believers have to be taken out (raptured) first?

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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Jericho on Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:53 am

Sonbeam wrote:
Jericho wrote:Even if it is true, it doesn't necessarily mean it could happen at this time. God doesn't judge the unbelievers along with the believers, otherwise it wouldn't be just. We've seen plenty of examples of that: Lot, Noah, the Hebrews in Goshen, etc. So for God to judge, the believers have to be separated from the unbelievers in some way. It's one of the reasons I'm still pre-trib. Once this age of grace ends, then God will judge the world.


Hi Jericho,

Does this mean that you believe the period of the tribulation is a judgment from God upon the world, therefore
the believers have to be taken out (raptured) first?

sonbeam


Yes sonbeam. The tribulation serves several purposes, judgment being one of them.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Ready1 on Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:33 am

Jericho wrote:
Sonbeam wrote:
Jericho wrote:Even if it is true, it doesn't necessarily mean it could happen at this time. God doesn't judge the unbelievers along with the believers, otherwise it wouldn't be just. We've seen plenty of examples of that: Lot, Noah, the Hebrews in Goshen, etc. So for God to judge, the believers have to be separated from the unbelievers in some way. It's one of the reasons I'm still pre-trib. Once this age of grace ends, then God will judge the world.


Hi Jericho,

Does this mean that you believe the period of the tribulation is a judgment from God upon the world, therefore
the believers have to be taken out (raptured) first?

sonbeam


Yes sonbeam. The tribulation serves several purposes, judgment being one of them.


A couple of interesting quotes with regard to judgment from the OT.

Abraham pleading with God to not destroy Lot goes like this:

Gen 18:22 And the men turned their faces away from there, and went toward Sodom. But Abraham still stood before Jehovah.
Gen 18:23 And Abraham drew near and said, Will You also destroy the righteous with the wicked?


And if you remember, Abraham got God to agree that if only 10 righteous were present in Sodom, that God would not destroy it.

Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh do not let Jehovah be angry, and I will speak only once more. Perhaps ten shall be found there. And He said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.


Then interestingly, the Angel set Lot outside the city gates of Sodom and hurried him on his way to the city of Zoar (which Lot negotiated). The reason that Lot needed to get out was... the angel indicated that he could not do his work until Lot was safely removed.

Gen 19:22 Hurry and escape there! For I cannot do anything till you have come there. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.



So the question for the time of the end becomes the same question as what Abraham asked. " Will You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? "

I believe that the answer is exactly the same, because the Lord says:

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not;
Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 
Just observing.

E.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:23 am

Jericho, Ready1,

I see the end times differently.

I believe the saints will go through the tribulation and will experience wrath BUT, it won’t be God’s wrath. It will be Satan/men’s wrath.

The Wrath of God will be poured on men/unbelievers AFTER the tribulation and the saints have been taken out.


Here are a couple of passages, among others, that I base my beliefs on.

Jesus speaking/praying for His disciples and all believers before going to the Cross:

John 15
19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’[b] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.



John 17:15

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one




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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Jericho on Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:36 pm

sonbeam wrote:Jericho, Ready1,

I see the end times differently.

I believe the saints will go through the tribulation and will experience wrath BUT, it won’t be God’s wrath. It will be Satan/men’s wrath.

The Wrath of God will be poured on men/unbelievers AFTER the tribulation and the saints have been taken out.


Here are a couple of passages, among others, that I base my beliefs on.

Jesus speaking/praying for His disciples and all believers before going to the Cross:


Sonbeam, I am familiar with the pre-wrath position. Here's issue I have with it. God used the Assyrians and Babylonians to destroy the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, right?. You could say this was the wrath of men, because men we're doing it. But it was God who was using them as a form of judgement, and God later judged and destroyed them.

Another example, during revelation 9:1-12 a star, presumably an angel, is "given" the key to the bottomless pit. Out of that comes these locust demons to torment humanity. Wouldn't this qualify as Satan's wrath? But who gave the angel the key? Doesn't Jesus have the keys to Hades and death (Rev 1:18)? So God can use men and Satan's wrath as a form of judgement upon the world.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Ready1 on Wed Mar 25, 2020 1:40 pm

Sonbeam, where do you place the end of the wrath of Satan and man, and differentiate between them and the wrath of God?
Just observing.

E.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:30 am

Jericho wrote:God doesn't judge the unbelievers along with the believers, otherwise it wouldn't be just.

Really - :humm:

Respectfully - here is what Scripture mentions:

Matthew 25:31-46 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment

31) “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32) All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33) and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34) “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35) For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36) naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37) Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38) And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39) When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40) The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41) Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42) for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43) I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44) Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45) Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Seems that the righteous are judged with the unrighteous here.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:35 am

Jericho wrote: Once this age of grace ends


I have yet to see anything Scripturally that can support the term "age of grace."

This term has been widely used in the Christian Community - and by many Theologians. Most have used it to support erroneous doctrines.

If anyone can provide something - it would be very edifying, and I would greatly appreciate it.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Jericho on Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:50 am

He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats


Mr Baldy, how are the righteous judged here? They are separated from the unrighteous and spared the same fate as them. Judgement is a penalty, and the righteous are not appointed to God's wrath.

Mr Baldy wrote:I have yet to see anything Scripturally that can support the term "age of grace."

This term has been widely used in the Christian Community - and by many Theologians. Most have used it to support erroneous doctrines.

If anyone can provide something - it would be very edifying, and I would greatly appreciate it.


I don't have much time to get into it right now, but those living under the Old Covenant were subject to the Law and if they violated the Law they were under immediately condemnation. If you were caught in adultery, for example, you could be stoned on the spot. But the New Covenant changed all that. That's why Jesus didn't condemn the woman who committed adultery, but instead offered grace. Grace is about giving mercy even though they are guilty and deserve punishment. When this church age ends so will the age of grace and the start of the tribulation and God pouring out his wrath.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:09 am

Ready1 wrote:Sonbeam, where do you place the end of the wrath of Satan and man, and differentiate between them and the wrath of God?


I see the end of Satan’s wrath when the two witnesses are killed.

As far as the difference between Satan's wrath and the Wrath of God, I will answer your question in my answer to Jericho’s post.

Though putting my thoughts to paper on that might take a while. :grin:

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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby mark s on Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:13 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jericho wrote: Once this age of grace ends


I have yet to see anything Scripturally that can support the term "age of grace."

This term has been widely used in the Christian Community - and by many Theologians. Most have used it to support erroneous doctrines.

If anyone can provide something - it would be very edifying, and I would greatly appreciate it.


It's just a name someone came up with. When you come to understand the dispensations of the ages it makes sense.

Much love!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:29 am

Jericho wrote:
sonbeam wrote:Jericho, Ready1,

I see the end times differently.

I believe the saints will go through the tribulation and will experience wrath BUT, it won’t be God’s wrath. It will be Satan/men’s wrath.

The Wrath of God will be poured on men/unbelievers AFTER the tribulation and the saints have been taken out.


Here are a couple of passages, among others, that I base my beliefs on.

Jesus speaking/praying for His disciples and all believers before going to the Cross:


Sonbeam, I am familiar with the pre-wrath position. /quote]
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:34 am

Sonbeam wrote:
Jericho wrote:
sonbeam wrote:Jericho, Ready1,

I see the end times differently.

I believe the saints will go through the tribulation and will experience wrath BUT, it won’t be God’s wrath. It will be Satan/men’s wrath.

The Wrath of God will be poured on men/unbelievers AFTER the tribulation and the saints have been taken out.


Here are a couple of passages, among others, that I base my beliefs on.

Jesus speaking/praying for His disciples and all believers before going to the Cross:


Jericho
Sonbeam, I am familiar with the pre-wrath position.



Here, I believe you are probably referring to the Marvin Rosenthal position that believes the saints will be
taken out sometime before the 7th seal trumpet judgments.

That is not what I believe. I see the saints being taken out at Christ's second coming and the 6th seal being opened at that time. Yes, this means that I see the 7th seal having being opened already by this time.

More on the rest of your post soon. :grin:

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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:01 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jericho wrote: Once this age of grace ends


I have yet to see anything Scripturally that can support the term "age of grace."

This term has been widely used in the Christian Community - and by many Theologians. Most have used it to support erroneous doctrines.

If anyone can provide something - it would be very edifying, and I would greatly appreciate it.



Mr. Baldy,

Jesus announced the age of the Lord's favor/grace here:

Luke 4:18-20 (NIV)

18
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,

19
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him.


However, the Lord's favor/grace has been in effect from the time man was banished from the garden.

(Actually we could say His grace was in effect long before that, but for the purpose of this thread we don't need to go there.) :grin:

How can we tell the Lord's grace was in effect then?

Because God did not place man under law after he left the garden.

Rom 5:12-13
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

sonbeam

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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:03 pm

Jericho wrote:Mr Baldy, how are the righteous judged here? They are separated from the unrighteous and spared the same fate as them.


Jericho - the aforementioned is an example of what a Judgment is in a nutshell.

Jericho wrote:Judgement is a penalty


:humm: - Judgment does not always result in a "penalty."
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:04 pm

mark s wrote:It's just a name someone came up with.


Thanks Mark :grin:
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:11 pm

Jericho and Ready1

Jericho
Here's issue I have with it. God used the Assyrians and Babylonians to destroy the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, right?. You could say this was the wrath of men, because men we're doing it. But it was God who was using them as a form of judgement, and God later judged and destroyed them.

Another example, during revelation 9:1-12 a star, presumably an angel, is "given" the key to the bottomless pit. Out of that comes these locust demons to torment humanity. Wouldn't this qualify as Satan's wrath? But who gave the angel the key? Doesn't Jesus have the keys to Hades and death (Rev 1:18)?


Ready1
Sonbeam, where do you place the end of the wrath of Satan and man, and differentiate between them and the wrath of God?



Yes, God is responsible for administering both Satan’s wrath and His wrath upon the world as He decrees. These have included instances like the ones you mention above Jericho.

But there is a difference between the recurring judgments and wrath of God that He brings upon this world and the two JUDGMENTS and WRATH Of GOD that impact Salvation and have eternal consequences.

The judgements God has executed upon the world up to now are not final as regards to Salvation. With them, God has taken the physical lives of those impacted, with the final JUDGMENT yet to be cast.

I say this because I believe that in some, if not all of these judgments, believers must have died along
with nonbelievers. If this be the case, their eternal destiny would still be secure.

In regards to Salvation, there are only two JUDGMENTS that are followed by the WRATH OF GOD.

The first JUDGMENT came a result of Adam and his descendants’ sins. And God poured His WRATH on Christ on the Cross.

The second JUDGMENT will happen at the Great White Throne. Men will be JUDGED for their unbelief in the Son of God. GOD will then execute His WRATH on them.

Bottom line, as the Producer, Director, Screen Writer, Casting Director, etc., etc., of this Salvation Saga, God has already orchestrated every single detail that has been unfolding/will unfold until His return.

Yes, I know. None of us want to believe this.

Blessings,

sonbeam
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Ready1 on Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:24 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Jericho and Ready1

Jericho
Here's issue I have with it. God used the Assyrians and Babylonians to destroy the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, right?. You could say this was the wrath of men, because men we're doing it. But it was God who was using them as a form of judgement, and God later judged and destroyed them.

Another example, during revelation 9:1-12 a star, presumably an angel, is "given" the key to the bottomless pit. Out of that comes these locust demons to torment humanity. Wouldn't this qualify as Satan's wrath? But who gave the angel the key? Doesn't Jesus have the keys to Hades and death (Rev 1:18)?


Ready1
Sonbeam, where do you place the end of the wrath of Satan and man, and differentiate between them and the wrath of God?



Yes, God is responsible for administering both Satan’s wrath and His wrath upon the world as He decrees. These have included instances like the ones you mention above Jericho.

But there is a difference between the recurring judgments and wrath of God that He brings upon this world and the two JUDGMENTS and WRATH Of GOD that impact Salvation and have eternal consequences.

The judgements God has executed upon the world up to now are not final as regards to Salvation. With them, God has taken the physical lives of those impacted, with the final JUDGMENT yet to be cast.

I say this because I believe that in some, if not all of these judgments, believers must have died along
with nonbelievers. If this be the case, their eternal destiny would still be secure.

In regards to Salvation, there are only two JUDGMENTS that are followed by the WRATH OF GOD.

The first JUDGMENT came a result of Adam and his descendants’ sins. And God poured His WRATH on Christ on the Cross.

The second JUDGMENT will happen at the Great White Throne. Men will be JUDGED for their unbelief in the Son of God. GOD will then execute His WRATH on them.

Bottom line, as the Producer, Director, Screen Writer, Casting Director, etc., etc., of this Salvation Saga, God has already orchestrated every single detail that has been unfolding/will unfold until His return.

Yes, I know. None of us want to believe this.

Blessings,

sonbeam


I guess I still have a simple question which is this: Can you point to a scripture and say, "Everything before this is the wrath of man or wrath of Satan, and everything after this scripture is the wrath of God?"
Just observing.

E.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:51 am

Ready1
I guess I still have a simple question which is this: Can you point to a scripture and say, "Everything before this is the wrath of man or wrath of Satan, and everything after this scripture is the wrath of God?"


Yes. There's a couple of passages. First in Rev 11 we see the end of the wrath of Satan by verse 10; followed by the resurrection of the 2 witnesses in verse 11. Those who are asleep in Christ will rise along with them. Though it is not spelled out, those saints who alive at the time will be taken up right after.

Rev 11

The Two Witnesses

11 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”[a] 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.


11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on


The WRATH of God begins in verse 13

13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.



Rev 6


12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Ready1 on Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:14 pm

sonbeam wrote:I see the end times differently.

I believe the saints will go through the tribulation and will experience wrath BUT, it won’t be God’s wrath. It will be Satan/men’s wrath.

The Wrath of God will be poured on men/unbelievers AFTER the tribulation and the saints have been taken out.


I have been thinking about what you have shared .

While the possibility exists that you may be right, I personally believe that this is an erroneous construct from the pre-wrath position. Pre-wrath, as I understand it, views everything from seal number one through trumpet number six as either the wrath of man or the wrath of Satan. (I think that that is what your comments would indicate but correct me if I am wrong)

However, there is no place in scripture where there is even a remote reference to this type of division other than the scripture that “God hath not appointed us unto wrath.” Please remember that all of the rapture viewpoints recognize and provide for this statement. Furthermore, do not forget that none of the seals, trumpets, or bowls could occur without the Lamb of God opening the scroll, seal-by-seal. The trumpets and the bowls are opened as a result of the seventh seal being opened. No place in Revelation or the rest of the Bible does it divide the coming period at the seventh seal in the way that pre-wrath does. And there is nothing in the text at that point which divides it either.

Yes, I realize that Revelation talks about the Devil having great wrath because he has little time left (Rev 12:12) But I also know that the wrath of the Lamb, who by opening these seals begins this whole time of the end, is spoken of in Rev 6. Furthermore, I also know that Rev 15:1 speaks of the “completion or conclusion of the wrath of God” rather than the start of the wrath of God. So the final seven plagues referenced in Revelation 15 and 16 are the final portion or conclusion of the wrath of God which has apparently started before this.

Furthermore, I simply cannot overlook the divine power required for the supernatural fulfillment of virtually all of the events of the seals (e.g. one fourth of the peoples of the earth killed. Mankind has never been able to do this kind of thing by himself.) We haven’t even talked about the trumpets, but the trumpets first appear in Rev 8: 6 with the indication of supernatural (not satanic or human) destruction 1) of one third of the earth by fire, (Rev 8:7) 2) of one third of the sea by blood, (Rev 8:8) 3) of one third of the water by bitterness, (Rev 8:10) 4) of one third of the day and night, (Rev 8:12) 5) of the loosing of the locusts from the pit, (Rev 9:1) and 6) loosing of the four angels prepared to destroy one third of all the people left on the earth. (Rev 9:13)

These six trumpets are not anything that man has the ability to do, and while Satan is powerful, he has no supernatural power in and of himself other than what the Lord has allowed. But there is no indication that the Lord has given him the power to do any of these things.

You have indicated that you see wrath of God as starting at Rev 11:13 and have tied that to Rev 6:12. But unless you see all the seals, trumpets, and bowls as occurring simultaneously then you have a problem chronologically. You have tied the sixth seal to the seventh trumpet and tied them by virtue of saying that the earthquake in both passages are simultaneous events. I believe that is erroneous. Revelation indicates more than one earthquake and I don’t know that you have the ability to declare them all as “one-and-the-same.” Here they are.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.


So while you can say
"I believe the saints will go through the tribulation and will experience wrath BUT, it won’t be God’s wrath. It will be Satan/men’s wrath",
I simply cannot see it other than through mental gymnastics that simply are not supported by a straightforward reading of the Word.

But that is why we all have different opinions, isn't it? :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:59 pm

Hi Ready1

Thought that I would re-post the outline of my views on Revelation so that you could see where I'm coming from on the things I've written about on this thread.

I originally posted this here back in 2013, and my views haven't changed. They remain essentially the same.


All seals have been opened except the 6th

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=66579&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=opened+seals

by Sonbeam on Wed May 29, 2013 1:00 pm

It is with great hesitancy that I open this thread since my view of Revelation is quite distinct from the prevailing views. But here it goes.

My view can be most closely categorized as historicist--in some ways--as well as futuristic. But unlike the classic historicist view that holds that Revelation presents the course of history from the apostles' life through the end of the age, I see the Revelation narrative as spanning the whole history of man starting at the garden.

My view is futuristic in that believe in a post tribulation (man’s wrath on the saints) rapture of the saints at the last trumpet -- Christ’s second coming -- and PRIOR to God’sWRATH being poured out on the world.

Historically, I see all the seals, with the exception of the 6th, as having already been opened, with the first 4 seals having a continuing fulfillment as man is plagued in every generation by famine, wars, and pestilences since the garden.

Here’s an outline of the opening of the seals as I see it:

1st seal, White horse: Satan bent on conquest; he was released in the garden; “conquered” man when Adam sinned; Satan continues to be bent on conquest till the end.

2d seal, Red horse: Peace taken from the earth starting when Cain killed Abel. Gen 4:8 War continuing till the end.

4th seal, Pale green horse: death (started when Cain killed Abel) caused by sword, famine, pestilence, wild beasts, etc. Events continuing till the end.

3rd seal, Black horse: First recorded famine Gen 12:10, Gen 26:1; famine and inflation continuing throughout the world at different times since then.

7th seal: Rev 8:1 Opened with the birth of our Lord. We are in an interlude following His Ascension. Interlude will end when the events of the first trumpet are fulfilled. After that, fulfillment of this seal and its trumpets will continue till the last trumpet is sounded at our Lord's return.

5th seal: Rev 6:9 Opened right after His resurrection when white robes were given to saints who had died prior to the Cross. White robes signify the cleansing from sin Christ obtained on the Cross for all men. This seal is closed.

6th seal: Possibly having its initial opening when anti-Christ is revealed since 6 is man’s number; or definitely opened at Christ’s second coming. Saints will be raptured before bowls of wrath are poured out on the world.

I believe Satan is bound while this is happening and also while nonbelievers are being judged at the great white throne judgment. Afterwards, he is released for the battle of Armageddon.

I do not see a literal millennium happening on this earth. I interpret the millennium to be eternity with the Lord starting right after the saints are gathered to Him.

And I think this will do for now, and I'll duck for cover.

sonbeam
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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:20 pm

About my view that the 6th seal is opened last, I believe the biblical text on the 6th and 7th seals does not support a sequential order.

Here’s why:

Rev 13-14 describes a cataclysmic chain of events that encompasses the whole universe when the 6th seal is opened:

13: the stars of heaven fell to the earth as a fig tree drops its unripe figs when shaken by a high wind;

14 the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up; and every mountain and island was moved from its place.


Isaiah prophesied about God's WRATH being poured out on all nations with the same words used when the 6th seal is opened.

Isa 34:4
All the stars in the sky will be dissolved
and the heavens rolled up like a scroll;
all the starry host will fall
like withered leaves from the vine,
like shriveled figs from the fig tree.


If we stick to a sequential opening of the 6th and the 7th seals, there is no way that anyone/nonbelievers are still alive or that there is even an earth since the universe will have been destroyed if the 6th seal bowls of God’s wrath are poured out first.

Therefore, the 7th seal judgments must occur before the 6th seal is opened.


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Re: A Vision of Cities Burning - Perry Stone

Postby Ready1 on Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:24 pm

Sonbeam, I would simply ask what you do with this scripture, since you have the seals opening from the time of Adam.

Rev 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 


The Alpha and Omega which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty, says in Rev 4:1 that the Apostle John was to "come up hither" so that the Almighty could show him "things which must be hereafter." Everything which follows in Rev 4:1-22:21 meets that qualification. Nothing prior to Rev 4:1 meets that qualification.

I am going to study on the basis of the Lord's timetable rather than an arbitrary understanding that cannot logically set forth from scripture. We cannot have it two ways! It cannot be "hereafter" and "from the Garden of Eden" at the same time. When I can mix and match chronology, I can make the scriptures say whatever I desire.

Like I say, that's why we have different understandings, isn't it. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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