What ur church is not telling u...MOB

[good4u1]

Hey all,

Ran across this extremely clear article and how simply it explains the mysterious "Mark of the Beast" and how it would go into affect. How this article explains it is very plausible and very likely to play out, considering today's events. Please let me know what you think and feedback.

Here is the link: http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.com/20 ... lling-you/

[A_Watchman]

Can man or machine see a spiritual mark? More than Likely, No. How will they (those who accept the Mark) decide who will buy or sell? Why would it be "in" or "on" the right hand or forehead?

Sorry, those who try to intertwine the concepts of the other prophecies with this one forgets that the Spiritual is the way one thinks. The flesh is as one wants, or needs to do. Whore of Babylon, or the Dragon are ways that nations, and Lucifer THINK. Part of the Revelations is in reference to the Spirit, and the other most certainly is to the flesh. When we get near the end we see the End result for both, based on our decisions.

[good4u1]

Ya know, I read your post a few times and I still do not know what your point is...but your entitled to your opinion...whatever it is.

[A_Watchman]

What I was referring to was that in the Revelations verse concening the MOB is that someone must willingly accept it. Thus a form of mandate from the Beast. Essententially "Take this mark, and you shall be allowed all my resources, and my care." SO it has to be a Physical mark.

[mark s]

This view has been debated a lot. A couple of key points . . .

It depends on the idea that the Apostle John "mis-wrote" the Revelation, mixing up Arabic characters with Greek characters. I don't think he did, myself. I consider the Bible authoritative.

It also depends on an Islamo-centric eschatology. If indeed the Gog-Magog destruction is before the AoD, then this doesn't work.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[good4u1]

Mark,

No, the Gog-Magog event is AFTER the AoD because Gog-Magog is the same event as the Battle of Armageddon as I view it. So this position in this article is correct (as of now) as I see it. It flows beautifully with Scripture teaching as it is totally relevant to today's geo-political maneuverings with Islam and the West. The article's logic is very well thought out and is applicable to what will transpire as the West sinks further into decline and the rise of Islam reaches fever pitch in the near future. This article is the best I have ever read in explaining how this will take place and is worth thinking about because you will never ever hear it from a pulpit because pastors avoid the hard truth of biblical prophecy. But there will come a time when we will be made to face the music and it is best to know what the music is ahead of time, imo.

But I posted it for the readers to ponder. For me, it is better to know than not and others may feel the same way.

[Tevye]

in the Revelations verse concening the MOB is that someone must willingly accept it. Thus a form of mandate from the Beast. Essententially "Take this mark, and you shall be allowed all my resources, and my care." SO it has to be a Physical mark.

Well said.
What I find in the message of the MOTB is
...he causes and then provides...

"...he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves,
to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able
to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark..."

he sets it out that all are to be given the mark
or by some means assigned a certain number of a man (human)
(as in a type of identification number)
to be assigned to everyone.
(not saying that all will accept it)
and then he makes a provision
that only those who have it
can have provisions from any marketplace.
Considering this concept, one would see it
in it's most normal, natural and customary way of being seen
as people who are perishing (spiritually and physically)
would have no other choice, than to accept the provided identifying mark.

Now for those who will be here in that time...
(namely all believers until the gathering as seen here in Matthew 24:29-31)
...I believe that we can take to heart the Lord's own words.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you.
I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know
the way to the place where I am going.” - John chapter 14

Trust Yeshua.
In my journeys, one of the most encouraging
things out there to see, is boldly written
on signs and freeway overpasses... Trust Jesus.
The Lord gets His message out there however it needs to be seen.
Remember, when the time comes, and it seems all hope is lost
the Lord will provide. Trust Jesus.
Remember... (((videolink)))

[mark s]

Actually, I've heard Walid teach this in churches out here. There was someone else, too, I can't remember his name, a General something or other from Canada.

But aside from these other conflicts, my foremost issue with this teaching is the notion that the Apostle John "got it wrong".

I just won't sit still for that. I believe God inspired not just the general themes of Scripture, but down to the individual letters.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mrgravyard49]

Isnt Ezekiel 40 thru 48 about the new temple? If so then Go Magog isnt after the AOD.. And besides, it will take "7" years to clean up the mess..

[good4u1]

Cleaning up the "mess" as you put it will be done at the beginning of the Millennium by Israel's remnant and I do not see the correlation between time and the description of the temple.

[mrgravyard49]

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-t ... rmageddon/

[jgilberAZ]

I don't believe the position is "John got it wrong."

I believe the position is that John got it right, but later copyists turned the letters the way that looked right to them.

[good4u1]

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/why-didnt-ezekiel-mention-armageddon/

Gravy,

I disagree with Mr. Kelly, obviously. Here is something YOU need to read and it is very well laid out and the Prophet Ezekiel does indeed foresee the Battle of Armageddon from a broader perspective. So we will agree to disagree. Here is the link for you to consider: http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.com/20 ... gog-magog/

[Jericho]

Cleaning up the "mess" as you put it will be done at the beginning of the Millennium by Israel's remnant and I do not see the correlation between time and the description of the temple.

I think God is going to clean whatever mess is left after the tribulation. The earth will be in such a state of disrepair after the judgements, natural and man made disasters that He would have to. Which begs the question why would He restore the earth but leave the mess from Magog? Also I don't think it's a coincidence that it takes 7 years to clean up.

[mark s]

I don't believe the position is "John got it wrong."

I believe the position is that John got it right, but later copyists turned the letters the way that looked right to them.

So are there any correct manuscripts?

[Jericho]

I don't believe the position is "John got it wrong."

I believe the position is that John got it right, but later copyists turned the letters the way that looked right to them.

If they did that with John whose to say they didn't do that with the rest of the bible. Then how can we trust the bible? You see where that line of thinking goes.

[jgilberAZ]

Good grief.

We don't have the originals, only copies.

The copies don't agree in every instance.

However, using textual criticism, we can get a fairly accurate composite copy of the originals ... enough to base my eternal destiny on, for sure.

But, can we say one manuscript has no errors? No, not without the originals.

You all know this already.

[mark s]

We don't have the originals, only copies.

The copies don't agree in every instance.

However, using textual criticism, we can get a fairly accurate composite copy of the originals ... enough to base my eternal destiny on, for sure.

But, can we say one manuscript has no errors? No, not without the originals.

My friend, I know there are no known originals. But the hand-written copies are referred to as manuscripts.

Textual criticism is the practice of comparing the manuscripts to determine which of them are correct in which places.

By its very nature, textual criticism assumes that at least some manuscripts are correct in any given place.

But this idea that the 666 of Revelation is actually Arabic is to say that none of them are right in this particular place.

This removes the possibility of Scriptural authority in this particular instance.

When someones says, "None of the existing copies actually read that way, I just think that it should be different" . . . well, is that not a problem to you?

Love in Christ,
Mark

[jgilberAZ]

Not so much, no ... as I'm not stating it as a certainty, only a remote possibility.

[mark s]

As far as I can see, unless you're willing to say that every single copy of the Bible is wrong in that place, it's not a possibility. Its got to be one or the other.

[jgilberAZ]

Unless I am mistaken, that's a unique incident in the book of Revelation. Everywhere else of which I am aware, John wrote out in long form Greek the words representing the numbers. ie, He did not write 144,000 ... he wrote one hundred forty four thousand. This seems to be the norm, with 666 being the only case where he used Greek letters-as-numbers to represent a number instead of writing out the number in long-form.

Why?

I believe it's within the realm of possibility that he penned what he saw, which wasn't Chi-Xi-Stigma.

Given that Iraneaus spoke of manuscripts with 616, and, given that there are manuscripts with 665, I don't think we should be too dogmatic about this, either way.


I really did not intend to debate this. It's not a view that hold to dearly ... only that I think it's within the realm of possibility.

My intent was to respond to the straw man argument you presented ... that John got it wrong. That has been accomplished. I'm done with this thread.

[mark s]

I agree that you've answered whether or not John "got it wrong", but you've replaced it with "every copy of the Bible is wrong in that place."

If that's progress, so be it.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[A_Watchman]

There is irony to this conversation, folks! On sunday (April 1, 2012), CNN Ran an article concerning the 4 "Myths" that a "theologian" quoted from the book of Revelations. She does not address any of this. In fact, she comes across as someone who debunks the whole of Prophecy. We are in the last days of the Unbeliver. Try to keep your heads. When the Lord returns, let us UNITE in Joy!

[Tevye]

There is irony to this conversation, folks! On sunday (April 1, 2012), CNN Ran an article concerning the 4 "Myths" that a "theologian" quoted from the book of Revelations. She does not address any of this. In fact, she comes across as someone who debunks the whole of Prophecy. We are in the last days of the Unbeliver. Try to keep your heads. When the Lord returns, let us UNITE in Joy!

When I got to the UNITE part of your post I remembered
the old movie series 'A Thief in the Night' (from 1972)
where the organization of the beast was called UNITE....
(all in caps)
(United Nations Imperium of Total Emergency)

Funny how prophecy perspectives have changed since 1972...

[A_Watchman]

I remember that movie! I forgot all about that. LOL

[xdrifter]

What ur church is not telling u...MOB

Post by good4u1 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:40 am
Hey all,

Ran across this extremely clear article and how simply it explains the mysterious "Mark of the Beast" and how it would go into affect. How this article explains it is very plausible and very likely to play out, considering today's events. Please let me know what you think and feedback.

Here is the link: http://midnightwatcher.wordpress.com/20 ... lling-you/

Either the author of that blog should re-read the Bible, and rethink their stance, or else explain to me how exactly this Spiritual Mark will allow people to buy or sell, all the while excluding those who refuse this Spiritual Mark, from buying and selling.

How exactly will they know I have refused this Spiritual mark? Buying and Selling is a physical act... a mark that you receive to do a physical act... At least that is what rational thought would lead one to believe.


Also, since this mark is so Spiritual... why is it placed in two physical locations, right hand, and forehead.

Also would love to know how you connect Gog Magog war with the battle of Armageddon... Because as far as I know the Battle of Armageddon will involve all of the standing armies (Revived Roman Empire / China crossing at Euphrates) , and that is when God will return and clean house.

[good4u1]

Actually, xdrifter the shadow and fore runner of the MOB is taking place now as I see it, just on a very tiny scale and you probably don't live in the Middle East and are a persecuted Christian minority where the overwhelming dominant Islamic religion seeks to either convert you to Islam or marginalize you to dhimmi status. For that is exactly the case and will happen on a larger scale during the End. Will it be a global phenomenon? I'm not sure, but we in the West will surely feel the hot breath of the Islamic Beast machine when it raises in full strength its ugly head against those who stand against it, namely Christians and Jews.

It is no accident that Christians are extremely persecuted in the Middle East and have an extremely difficult time economically in Islamic countries where strict Islam is practiced and it will only grow worse as time goes on. The MOB of Islam as I see it will be the crucible of fire for testing both Christians and Jews.

I will have to write more later...

[good4u1]

Below are proofs that show that both the Leader Gog and AntiChrist are one in the same person thus showing that the Gog-Magog War and the Battle of Armageddon are one in the same event as I see it. I trust this will answer your questions, xdrifter.


PROOFS THAT GOG IS THE ANTICHRIST
A. REASON #1: THE NUMEROUS SHARED COMMONALITIES BETWEEN GOG AND THE ANTICHRIST

1. THE DEFEAT OF BOTH GOG AND ANTICHRIST ARE FOLLOWED BY “THE FEAST OF GOD”
Gog:
Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood. You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth… At my table you will eat your fill of horses and riders, mighty men and soldiers of every kind,’ declares Yahweh the Sovereign. —Ezekiel 39:17-20
Antichrist:
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.” (Revelation 19:17)

2. BOTH ARMIES ATTACK TURN ON EACH OTHER.
Gog
I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man’s sword will be against his brother. I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed. -Ezekiel 38:21-22
Antichrist
On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other. -Zechariah 14:12-13

3. BOTH COALITIONS CONSIST OF THE SAME NATIONS:
Antichrist:
…and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his (Antichrist’s) steps.
Daniel 11:43
Gog:
Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet.
Ezekiel 38:5

4. BOTH GOG AND THE ANTICHRIST TAKE SPOIL, LOOT AND PLUNDER:
Antichrist:
“Woe to the Assyrian (the Antichrist), the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation; I dispatch him against a people who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder, and to trample them down like mud in the streets. But this is not what he intends, this is not what he has in mind; his purpose is to destroy, to put an end to many nations.” (Isaiah 10:5-7)
“When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them… He will distribute plunder, loot, and wealth among his followers.” (Daniel 11:24)
Gog:
On that day… you will make an evil plan: You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages… to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land. (Ezekiel 38:10-13)

SIDE NOTE:
“When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them… He will distribute plunder, loot, and wealth among his followers.” (Daniel 11:24)

A. The Antichrist will be a populist, wealth spreader. He will want to “spread the wealth around” among his followers. Every dictator in history uses the concept of spreading the wealth to the poor, pseudo “justice” issues to curry favor with the peoples: Hugo Chavez, Communism, Fidel Castro, etc. etc. etc.

B. The Early Church understood this: “The Antichrist pretends that he vindicates the poor.” Ireneaus (c. 202)

C. Muslims Await a Populist Messiah:
1. In the last-days of the Islamic community, the Mahdi will appear… He will give away wealth profusely, flocks will be in abundance, and the Muslim community will be large and honored… - Sahih Hakim Mustadrak
2. In those years my community will enjoy a time of happiness such as they have never experienced before. … A man will stand and say, “Give to me Mahdi!” and he will say, “Take.” At-Tabarani

5. BOTH GOG AND ANTICHRIST ARE KINGS THAT COME FROM THE NORTH.
Antichrist:
At the time of the end the king of the South (Egypt) will engage him in battle, and the king of the North (Antichrist) will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He (Antichrist) will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. (Daniel 11:40-42)
” And I will never again make you a reproach among the nations. I will drive the northern army far from you, pushing it into a parched and barren land, with its front columns going into the eastern sea and those in the rear into the western sea. And its stench will go up; its smell will rise.” Surely he has done great things. (Joel 2:19-20)
Gog:
In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you… a mighty army… You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land… I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. (Ezekiel 38:14-16; 39:1-3)

6. BOTH ARMAGEDDON AND THE BATTLE OF GOG END WITH A GREAT EARTHQUAKE
The destruction of both Gog and the Antichrist is accompanied by an earthquake of unparalleled proportions. This is not a small event. Every creature on the Earth, all men will shake at the presence of Jesus. This same event is described in the Book of Revelation as occurring when the armies of Antichrist are gathered together in and against Israel:

7. BOTH ALSO EXPERIENCE GREAT HAILSTONES
Antichrist:
Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon… Then there came… From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. (Revelation 16:16-21)
Gog:
I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. (Ezekiel 38:22)

8. BOTH GOG AND ANTICHRIST COME AT A TIME OF PEACE AND UNSUSPECTINGNESS
Antichrist:
When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them (Daniel 11:24)
This is also in accordance with the false peace that Israel will experience as a result of the AC’s bogus peace treaty with Israel. While Ezekiel 38,39 portrays the final battle in very general and broad terms (wide angle lens), Revelation 19 portrays it in very specific and focused terms. This is common throughout the prophets. It is the prophetic perspective / mountain peak principle that Clarence Larkin spoke so eloquently about long ago.
Gog:
You will say, “I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. (Ezekiel 38:12, 13)

B. REASON # 2: THE THEORY WHICH CLAIMS THAT MUSLIMS NATIONS WILL BE DECIMATED PRIOR TO CHRIST’S RETURN CONTRADICTS NUMEROUS OTHER PASSAGES:
The Bible teaches that Israel will be shattered and nearly wiped out just prior to the return of Christ by Muslim nations. It names them very specifically numerous times. When Jesus returns he is seen to be fighting against Muslim nations and delivering Jews from captivity from the surrounding Muslim nations. Any claim that the Muslim World will be rendered irrelevant prior to the return of Christ must ignore vast tracts of Scripture and is thus unbiblical.

C. REASON #3: EZEKIEL 38, 39 PORTRAYS THE PAROUSIA: CHRIST IS PRESENT
In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence (panim). (Ezekiel 38:20)
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming (parousia lit. presence). (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
Presence = Panim: Means face, or in front of. Actual presence. The actual face of God.
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face (panim) to face (panim), and my life is preserved. Gen 32:30
THE HOLY ONE IN ISRAEL:
“And the heathen shall know that I am Yahweh, the Holy One in Israel.” Ezekiel 39:7
1. Kaddosh Yisrael: 32 times in the Scriptures it uses the phrase:
2. “The Holy One OF Israel”
3. Only once is it translated as: “the Holy One IN Israel” Ezekiel 39:7

D. REASON # 4: ISRAEL AND THE NATIONS COME TO FAITH: AFTER THIS EVENT, GOD’S NAME WILL NO LONGER BE PROFANED.
1. God Himself says that after the defeat of Gog and his armies, all of the Gentile Nations as well as Israel will be convicted of their unbelief and will know that He (Yahweh) is God:
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. (Ezekiel 39:22)
2. This can only happen after they accept their Messiah Jesus. Jesus told them that they would not see him again until they recognized Him as being from God.
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. (Luke 13:35, Matthew 23:39)
And it shall come to pass in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem… And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:9-10)
3. Not Only Israel, but all nations will come to faith. God will NO LONGER allow his name to be blasphemed.
And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am Yahweh.’ I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am Yahweh… ” ‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I Yahweh am the Holy One in Israel. It is coming! It will surely take place, declares Yahweh the Sovereign. This is the day I have spoken of. (Ezekiel 38:23-39:7-8)
4. Everything about the events and Scriptural language in this passage indicate that this war is no mere opening act to the Great Tribulation, but is rather the magnificent capstone of that period that will have a decisive effect on all nations worldwide.
5. How could God say that after the defeat of Gog and Magog, that his name would no longer be profaned if this were speaking about an event that came just prior to the coming forth of the Antichrist who will literally spend three and a half years openly blaspheming God’s name, all the while gathering a global following in the process? Does that make any sense at all?
6. The description of what will take place after Gog’s destruction is one that can only be applied to that period after Christ returns and has utterly destroyed all of His enemies.

E. REASON #5 GOG WAS REFERRED TO BY THE FORMER PROPHETS: GOD DECLARES THAT GOG IS THE ANTICHRIST

1. Ezekiel also says specifically of Gog that other biblical prophets spoke of him in times past:
This is what Yahweh the Sovereign says: Are you (Gog) not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. (Ezekiel 38:17)
Thus saith the Lord God, to Gog; Thou art he concerning whom I spoke in former times, by the hand of my servants the prophets of Israel, in those days and years, that I would bring thee up against them. - Septuagint Translation
2. If Gog and Magog are spoken of by Israel’s former prophets prior to Ezekiel, then where are all of these references?
3. If Gog is Russia, then I challenge anyone to show me one passage anywhere in the Prophets where God is speaking about Russia.
4. This would include almost every OT book other than Haggai, Zechariah, Daniel and Malachi.
5. In fact, I have yet to see one single treatment of this subject by those who claim that Gog is not the Antichrist.
6. If we do take the position that Gog is Antichrist however, then it is very easy to find numerous passages about Antichrist and his invading army throughout the prophets.

IV. CONCLUSION:
ALL THE PROPHETS SPEAK OF THIS SAME EVENT. They all have the same ending. The story is always the same. A group of nations attack Israel, God steps in to save them, and they return to God forever. All the prophets speak of these same issues and they all end with Israel with God forever after – “from that day forward”.

Brief Addendum:
Arguments not dealt with here:
The Mountains issue. Simply put, “on the mountains of Israel” is simply an expression that means the whole land of Israel. To read this in a hyper-literal fashion is to ignore the immediate context of Ezekiel 36. In essence it would be like saying “all across the fruited plains” of America. One is not merely speaking about plains, but all of the USA. Thus in Ezekiel 36, God tells Ezekiel to prophecy to the Mountains of Israel and say… to the mountains, ravines, cities valleys etc. etc. etc.
The burning of weapons issue: Some claim that there is no need to burn weapons in the millennium. Why then will there be the need to beat swords into plowshares? Yet we know that this takes place. Simply put, life goes on during the millennium. Fuel for cooking or for light or for simple cleanup will continue. Just because Jesus is present, all things are not simply done through magic.
A few other arguments are made through silence. This or that is not mentioned, therefore it is not part of this story. If this same logic were applied to the gospels, one would have to conclude that they are all different stories. Yet we know that they are the same.
The most common error that some make in attempting to say that Ezekiel 38 39 is not talking about the AC is to compare it in isolation to Rev 19 / Battle of Armageddon. Yet this is the same thing that many cults do: they build doctrines on isolated passages while ignoring the wealth of other passages that speak to this issue. Thus to determine if Gog is the AC we must examine it next to all of the Antichrist passages and not just Revelation 19. Common sense.

Lastly, some claim that in Armageddon, every nation is involved while Gog Magog Battle is limited. First, the Gog battle is not limited but left open. “many nations with you” it says. Second, we must remember that the Antichrist coalition is primarily ten nations with many others eventually joining as well. But every last nation of the earth is not with the Antichrist. This is another whole study and there is not enough room or time for me to add it all here but suffice it to say that the AC does not rule every last nation on the earth, otherwise there would be utter peace, yet the AC is at war until the very end. War necessitates resistors. Daniel 11 actually names nations that escape his hand.

[1whowaits]

The differences between Gog-Magog are significant and obvious- (the AC does have authority over all nations- 'and he was given authority over every tribe, people language and nation' Rev 13, sounds like 'all nations')

Zech 14 -I will gather all nations against Jerusalem, Joel 3- I will sit to judge all the nations on every side, Rev 16- they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle, Rev 19- I saw the beast and the kings of the earth gathered to make war against the rider on the horse.

Armageddon, 'all nations' repeatedly stated, Gog-Magog, limited number of named nations, all nations never stated.

AC -captured alive and cast with the FP into the lake of fire.

Gog- buried in a mass grave with his troops- 'Gog and all his hordes will be buried there'. (burial in a mass grave consistent with Gog also described in Isa 14)

Gog-Magog- armies buried, Armageddon rot where they stand, turned to dust -Zech 14, Isa 29

Gog described as coming from the north, AC battles the king of the north- 'at the time of the end the king of the south will engage him in battle, and the king of the north will storm out against him with chariots...reports from the east and the north will alarm him......'Dan 11

Armageddon, Jesus kills the armies with the sword of His mouth, He tramples them like grapes, Gog-Magog God sends plague and bloodshed, rain, hailstones and burning sulfur down on Gog.

Armageddon- God (Jesus) is repeatedly described as being physically present, making physical contact with the armies (trampling them like grapes) where is this description of Jesus at Gog-Magog? (Nahum 1 states- 'the earth trembles at his presence' in a description of the past destruction of Nineveh, was God physicaly present at the destrcution of Nineveh as Jesus will be at armageddon? the same would apply to the 'presence' statement in ezek 38)

Armageddon is the battle of the ages involving the armies of all nations and Satan and his forces, Gog-Magog is a limited event with a limited number of nations that occurs on the mountains of Israel.

[good4u1]

I guess we will just have to wait and see if either of us are right are neither one of us are right and it is someone else, Onewho. So we will just have to agree to disagree and we are both entitled to our opinions since it is still future. I'm not surprised in the least you would chime in here to xdrifter's questions.

[Mitchell]

The differences between Gog-Magog are significant and obvious- (the AC does have authority over all nations- 'and he was given authority over every tribe, people language and nation' Rev 13, sounds like 'all nations')

Zech 14 -I will gather all nations against Jerusalem, Joel 3- I will sit to judge all the nations on every side, Rev 16- they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle, Rev 19- I saw the beast and the kings of the earth gathered to make war against the rider on the horse.

Armageddon, 'all nations' repeatedly stated, Gog-Magog, limited number of named nations, all nations never stated

One common misconception, in my view, is that the war described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 — often referred to as the War of Gog-Magog — is a war that happens either just before or immediately after the start of “Daniel’s 70th week”. If we take the time to closely examine the text, however, I believe that we can ascertain that Gog-Magog is a battle that, without a doubt, can only culminate at Armageddon.

When it comes to the Gog-Magog battle of Ezekiel there seems to be this circle of prophecy teachers who keep repeating the same rehashed theories over and over in an effort to impose a specific preconceived idea or timeline into the text of Scripture, instead of allowing the full counsel of Scripture to speak for itself. They “parrot” one another, as it were, and all too often students of Biblical eschatology who study the positions of a particular author or teacher may then refer to a couple of others who say essentially the same thing for “inquisitive” reinforcement. Subsequently, they are forced to conclude that these authors must be correct because they have “all” arrived at the same conclusion from the text. The conclusion is further strengthened in the student’s mind when the very same teachers also echo similar rebuttals in an effort to show why any opposing position cannot be correct. But as the Bereans in the Book of Acts were called noble because they searched the full counsel of Scripture daily to see if what they were being taught was so, we too also need to mimic the Berean example.

When it comes to the Gog-Magog battle described in Ezekiel others have done exactly that, such as Joel Richardson (read his position here: http://archives.joelstrumpet.com/?p=1973) and Dave Hunt & T. A. McMahon from The Berean Call radio ministry. (You can listen to a segment from their radio program discussing Ezekiel 38 and 39 here: ftp://www.thebereancall.org/radio/2006/5006a.mp3). These teachers offer compelling reasons why the Gog-Magog war of Ezekiel 38 and 39 does not describe a “pre-Armageddon” battle, but rather describes Armageddon itself.

What Is Gog, And Who Is Gog?

Ezekiel 38:2 calls Gog “the chief” of Magog (The Hebrew word for “chief” is rosh which means the “head” or “leader”) and the Lord tells Ezekiel to prophecy against “him”. Thus, Gog is a person who is the leader, and Magog is the coalition of nations that are with him.

An extremely significant clue is given for us regarding the identity of Gog. In Ezekiel 38:17, God identifies Gog as the one whom the prophets foretold that would come up against Israel in the last days. The only one the prophets speak of in this manner elsewhere is Antichrist. Here are a few renderings of Ezekiel 38:17:

KJV: Ezekiel 38:17 reads, “Thus saith the Lord GOD; [Art] thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days [many] years that I would bring thee against them?”

NLT: “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: You are the one I was talking about long ago, when I announced through Israel’s prophets that in future days I would bring you against my people.”

LXX: “Thus saith the Lord God, to Gog; Thou art he concerning whom I spoke in former times, by the hand of my servants the prophets of Israel, in those days and years, that I would bring thee up against them.”

CEV: “The LORD said to Gog: Long ago, I had my prophets warn the people of Israel that someday I would send an enemy to attack them. You, Gog, are that enemy, and that day is coming.”

TNIV: “‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them.”

If the Lord refers to Gog as the one whom the prophets previously spoke of that would come up against Israel in the last days, there is only one conclusion that we can come to: Gog is another name for Antichrist.

Similarities Between The Battle of Gog-Magog and Armageddon

When all things are considered, there are way too many similarities between Gog-Magog and Armageddon to ignore. I believe that the “differences” that some try to point out between Gog-Magog and Armageddon are easily resolved once the whole of Scripture is compared hermeneutically (using Isaiah, Daniel, Joel and Zechariah as well instead of just Revelation) and the similarities are astounding. In a nutshell:

* Both Gog and Antichrist come at a time of peace and security (Dan 11:24, Eze 38:12-13)
* Both Gog and Antichrist are kings that come from the North (Dan 11:40-42, Joel 2:19-20; Ezel 38:14-16; Eze 39:1-3)
* Both Gog and Antichrist have the same coalition of nations (Dan 11:43, Zech 14:14, Joel 3:11-12; Eze 38:5-6 - and many people [nations] with thee)
* Both Gog and Antichrist take spoil, loot and plunder (Isa 10:5-7, Dan 11:24; Ezekiel 38:10-13)
* Both Gog and Antichrist are temporary leaders that are destroyed at the end of the battle (Eze 39:11; Dan 7:11)
* In both the Gog/Magog and Armageddon battles, the armies are confused and attack each other (Eze 38:21-22; Zech 14:12-13)
* Both Gog-Magog and Armageddon end with a great earthquake (Eze 38:19-20; Rev 16:18-20)
* Both Gog-Magog and Armageddon experience great hailstones (Rev 16:16-21, Eze 38:22)
* Both Gog-Magog and Armageddon are followed by “The Feast Of God” (Eze 39:17-20; Rev 19:17)
* After both battles Christ is physically present in Israel (Eze 39:7, Zech 12:9-10)
* After both battles God’s name will no longer be profaned (Eze 39:22, Eze 39:7-8, Zech 12:9-10, Eze 38:23)
* After both battles God pours out His Spirit upon Israel (Eze 39:29; Zech 12:10)
* After both battles weapons of war are destroyed (Eze 39:9; Isa 2:4)
* After both battles God declares “It is done” (Eze 39:8; Rev 16:17)

Notice the three points above I have bolded. Ezekiel 39:7 and 39:22 says that God’s name will be known in the midst of Israel and that Israel will know their God from that day forward. The only way that Israel can know God is if they know Jesus as their Messiah. Galatians 5:4 makes it clear that those who simply try to be justified by the Law are estranged from Christ (and therefore God), so if Israel is to truly KNOW the Lord their God “from that day forward” they must recognize Jesus (Yeshua) as the Messiah (Ha-Mashiach). In this context Ezek 39:29 tells us that the Lord pours out His spirit upon the house of Israel, and Zechariah 12:10 helps us to understand when this happens — after the Second Coming of Christ. Ezekiel 39:7 reinforces this by showing us that Christ is now physically present IN Israel.

Ezekiel 39:29, “Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.”

Zechariah 12:10, “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.”

Ezekiel 39:7, “So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.”

Moreover, in Ezekiel 39:8, God declares “Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken.” If God had declared that He spoke of any “pre-Armageddon” battle before, where is it mentioned in Scripture? The only day in the eschaton that the Lord and the prophets spoke of previously is the Day of the Lord — Armageddon. Moreover, how can God say “It is done” when, according to the pop-eschatology position, it is not done until about seven years later at Armageddon?

Without any doubt in my mind, Gog-Magog and Armageddon are essentially separate descriptions of the same battle. Think the same scene from different camera angles. The Gog-Magog description that Ezekiel gives is a broader wide-angle view of the final battle which, I believe, will begin as early as the Abomination of Desolation and last throughout the duration of Antichrist’s 42-month persecution of God’s people. Armageddon itself is more of a focused or zoomed-in view of how the Gog-Magog battle will end – with the return of Yeshua Ha-Mashiach, Jesus Christ.

[Mitchell]

Can man or machine see a spiritual mark? More than Likely, No. How will they (those who accept the Mark) decide who will buy or sell? Why would it be "in" or "on" the right hand or forehead?

Either the author of that blog should re-read the Bible, and rethink their stance, or else explain to me how exactly this Spiritual Mark will allow people to buy or sell, all the while excluding those who refuse this Spiritual Mark, from buying and selling.

Hi brothers, per the article, the biggest question that many will have regarding a symbolic mark is, “If the Mark of the Beast is only symbolic, how can those who do not have a literal mark not buy or sell?” This is often used as well by some as an argument against a figurative mark, arguing that any such mark must be visible and/or physical if it is required in order to buy or sell. However, the answer to this question is much simpler than many may think.

When it comes to the conditions that exist in many Islamic nations for Christians, Dr. Labib Mikhail, a former professor of homiletics from the Faith Mission Bible College in Cairo, Egypt, states that one reason why people are forced to embrace Islam is because of the poverty they will assuredly find themselves in if they do not. “If you don’t embrace Islam you may not find a job; you may not find an apartment, and you’ll be in financial trouble”. Non-Muslims, particularly Christians and Jews, living in Muslim-dominated countries are finding themselves subjected to an ever increasing wave of discrimination, oppression and persecution at the hands of the Ummah (Islamic Community). Even today a Christian in a Muslim country is often treated as a second-class citizen or worse, unable to serve in the military or police, many cannot work or own a business, or even find a place to live. They cannot own a weapon to defend themselves, nor can they testify against a Muslim in court, etc. etc. etc.. And this type of treatment is getting worse, not better.

According to NIFCON (Network for Inter Faith Concerns) in Iraq, for example, minorities have faced a tremendous crisis due to their religious identity and are increasingly becoming targets of unprecedented terror. Canon Andrew White, vicar of St. George’s Anglican Church in Bagdad and head of the Foundation for Reconciliation and Reconstruction in the Middle East, testified as a witness in 2007 at a hearing that Christians, in particular, “are being disproportionately targeted” and many Christians are being threatened either to convert to Islam or face execution. In fact, in April 2011, “an Iraqi Muslim scholar issued a fatwa that, among other barbarities, asserts that ‘it is permissible to spill the blood of Iraqi Christians.’ … Among other atrocities, beheading and crucifying Christians are not irregular occurrences; messages saying ‘you Christian dogs, leave or die,’ are typical. Islamists see the church as an ‘obscene nest of pagans’ and threaten to ‘exterminate Iraqi Christians.’”.

On one hand, while many are coming face to face with the threat of death for not converting to Islam, other Christians elsewhere are threatened to convert in other ways that, for some, make life just as difficult. In many Islamic nations, for instance, everyone must be given an ID card and this ID card specifies what religion you are, such as “M” for Muslim or “C” for Christian or “J” for Jew. For example, “Christian converts and members of minority religions suffer daily discrimination in Egypt, which restricts their access to work, education, travel and healthcare… Every Egyptian over 16 years old must have an ID card which mentions religious belief”. In fact, “an ID card is required for the most basic needs in Egypt — to open a bank account, get a driver’s licence, obtain a pension cheque, enrol at school, get a job, and even for childhood immunisations…” Some Muslims will convert to another faith other than Christianity, but “Muslims who convert to Christianity account for many more and their treatment is often harsher as they are considered to be apostates, which some Muslims see as punishable by death”. And now, since the fall of Hosni Mubarak and the rise of the ‘Egyptian Revolution’, the situation has worsened dramatically for Jews and Christians. This is where Islamic supremacy veiled in a cloak of ‘democracy’ will take you in a country where Islam is the overwhelming, dominant religion. It’s like Sunni and Shia. It’s like iron and clay. Democracy and Islamism will never fully mix.

Although only Iraq and Egypt were provided as examples, similar conditions exists for Jews and Christians all throughout North Africa and the Middle East or elsewhere where Islam dominates or seeks domination, from the Ivory Coast to Nigeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Tunisia, Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Pakistan, Iran, Malaysia, Indonesia and others.

When we begin to understand the dire social and economic conditions that Christians are increasingly facing in Islamic nations we begin to understand that those who will not be able to buy or sell, or are targeted for execution, are those Christians that refuse to submit to Islam both in mind (forehead) and in deed (right hand) yet remain in Islamic nations during the rise of the Beast. How can a non-Muslim “infidel”, who is often threatened with death, buy or sell if they are not permitted to work and earn money, if they are not granted permits to open a business, if the superior Muslim will refuse to sell to the inferior “dhimmi”? As bad as this situation is now, it is only going to get worse.

Take, for example, the fact that in Egypt right now “Christians are being violently killed under the eyes of the international media. Also, for the first time in many years, churches are being systematically burned and destroyed. The police are taking no action and nobody is punished for it… Problems are also experienced in day-to-day life because calls are often made in the media not to buy from Christian merchants or to sell anything to Christians. Businessmen are therefore faced with a struggle for economic survival. Christians are indirectly excluded from employment, for example by job advertisements specifying ‘a female employee with headscarf’” (Read more: http://wp.me/p1qlPa-29x). Or in Iraq, for instance, where Muslims are destroying Christian businesses and leaving notices stating that “If anyone decides to reopen his store, we will kill him” (Read more: http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2nN). The Mark of the Beast is alive and well and, as we can see, is being enforced in increasing measure right now as we speak.

Also, since this mark is so Spiritual... why is it placed in two physical locations, right hand, and forehead.

This is also addressed as well. Let’s review a few portions of Scripture that refer to the head and hand and what these terms mean in those specific contexts.

Exodus 13:9 says, “And it shall serve AS A SIGN to you on your hand, and AS A REMINDER to you on your forehead, that the law of the LORD may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the LORD brought you out of Egypt.”

The Lord said that His words are to be as a sign on our hand, and as frontals on our foreheads. The word “as” is “used to express similarity or equality in a specified characteristic, condition, etc., as between one person or thing and another.” It means “like” or “similar to.”

Sign: H226 Strong’s Bible Dictionary “ôth” – Probably from H225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal, as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.: – mark, miracle, (en-) sign, token.

Deuteronomy 6:5-8, ”You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. You shall bind them AS A SIGN ON YOUR HAND and they shall be AS FRONTALS ON YOUR FOREHEAD.”

Deuteronomy 11:18, ”Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them AS A SIGN ON YOUR HAND, and they shall be AS FRONTLETS BETWEEN YOUR EYES.”

James 4:8, ”Come near to God and he will come near to you. WASH YOUR HANDS, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you DOUBLE-MINDED.”

Psalms 119:48, ”My HANDS ALSO I WILL LIFT UP to Your commandments, Which I love, And I will MEDIATE ON YOUR STATUTES.”

Instead of interpreting Scripture to conform to our understanding, we must allow our understanding to conform to Scripture. When Scripture is permitted to interpret itself we’ll then begin to see why the Mark of the Beast need not be literal at all, but is instead simply an identifying mark upon the head or forehead to represent the mind, what you believe, your faith, how you think, and in the right hand to represent actions, works, what you do. There is nothing in the text necessitating a physical and visible mark upon the forehead or right hand as in a microchip or tattoo or anything else that a people or government can physically place therein or upon. It just doesn’t exist.

[burien1]

Welcome to FP, Mitchell !

[mightymac]

That was awesome Mitchell. You gave me some things to think about is an engaging fashion. Thank you!

[Abiding in His Word]

There is nothing in the text necessitating a physical and visible mark upon the forehead or right hand as in a microchip or tattoo or anything else that a people or government can physically place therein or upon. It just doesn’t exist.

Rev 13:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark (G5480) on their right hand or on their forehead,

G5480
charagma
Thayer Definition:

1) a stamp, an imprinted mark
1a) of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
1b) the mark branded upon horses
2) thing carved, sculpture, graven work
2a) of idolatrous images
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the same as G5482

Were this mark to be something in one's mind or in one's actions, it would be unidentifiable. The Greek implies the mark is imprinted, stamped, branded, or carved. This visible, identifiable mark allows or disallows buying and/or selling.

Rev 13:17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

The scripture in Exodus 13:9 relates to the observation of the unleavened bread which serves as a reminder of the Lord's bringing them out of slavery. The outward, visible practice/tradition is the sign which serves as a reminder of the Exodus to be taught to future generations.

Deuteronomy 6:5-8 led to the practice of wearing visible phylacteries which contained the words of the Lord. It's a practice the Lord criticized as the Pharisees enlarged them in order to be noticed and in hopes they would be more respected and admired. Nevertheless, it was/is a visible sign still worn by ultra-Orthodox Jews today.

Deuteronomy 11:18 commands 2 things:
1) impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul;
2) bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

The outward, visible signs serve as a testimony of the words on their heart and soul.

I can't see any meaning other than a tangible, visible sign/mark identifying those who receive special privileges noted in Revelation 13 that encompasses all people regardless of status, rank, race, or creed. Those missing the visible mark will be obviously Christians.

[Mitchell]

Rev 13:16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark (G5480) on their right hand or on their forehead,

G5480
charagma
Thayer Definition:

1) a stamp, an imprinted mark
1a) of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist
1b) the mark branded upon horses
2) thing carved, sculpture, graven work
2a) of idolatrous images
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the same as G5482

Were this mark to be something in one's mind or in one's actions, it would be unidentifiable. The Greek implies the mark is imprinted, stamped, branded, or carved.

John employs many other words throughout Revelation that refer to something physical by definition yet uses them figuratively as symbols of something else entirely. For example:

Revelation 13:17 – the beast – “therion” G2342 – an animal, a wild beast
Revelation 12:3 – Dragon – “drakon” G1404 – a dragon, a great serpent
Revelation 12:3 – horns – “keras” G2768 – a horn; of animals
Revelation 12:3 – crowns – “diadema” G1238 – a diadem; a kingly ornament, crown
Revelation 14:4 – Lamb – “arnion” G721 – a little lamb, a lamb

We all agree that these are figurative, and John's usage of the word "charagma" does not necessitate a literal, physical mark. Is it reasonable to conclude that the figurative dragon, with the seven figurative heads, ten figurative horns and a figurative crown upon each figurative horn — a figurative dragon who hates the figurative woman and who gives power to the figurative Beast that opposes the figurative lamb (a figurative lamb who figuratively marks those who follow the figurative lamb with a figurative seal) — puts a literal, physical mark upon those who worship the figurative Beast? The song “One Of These Things (Is Not Like The Other)” comes to mind. It makes much more sense -- and is consistent with the imagery employed by John -- that the word “mark (charagma)” is used figuratively, just as “lamb (arnion)” and “crowns (diadema)” and “horns (keras)” and many others all refer to something physical and tangible that we can identify with. All are symbolic or spiritual, not literal and physical.

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi Mitchell,

John employs many other words throughout Revelation that refer to something physical by definition yet uses them figuratively as symbols of something else entirely.

I don't think anyone would disagree with the symbolism in Revelation and the difficulty presented in determining the meanings. My intent was to show that the scriptures you referred to did indeed refer to a visible, tangible sign used by the Jews as a sign of a spiritual occurrence or memorial.

There is nothing in the text necessitating a physical and visible mark upon the forehead or right hand as in a microchip or tattoo or anything else that a people or government can physically place therein or upon. It just doesn’t exist.

While, as you say, many words in Revelation are symbolic, there are some that are not. Our job is to discover the intended meaning of both. While normally checking a word's usage throughout scripture is helpful, it does not appear to help in this case as the scriptures posted did point to visible, outward signs imo.

When Scripture is permitted to interpret itself we’ll then begin to see why the Mark of the Beast need not be literal at all, but is instead simply an identifying mark upon the head or forehead to represent the mind, what you believe, your faith, how you think, and in the right hand to represent actions, works, what you do.

Will you share how you speculate buying and/or selling could be controlled by virtue of one's thoughts in the mind? How would one know the thoughts of others? I might agree with your theory should people verbalize their thoughts so as to label them as believers at one point in time, but in the big scheme of things, it seems only logical and reasonable that following their identify via thoughts and/or actions, they would be visibly labeled to reflect their position.

[Mitchell]

I don't think anyone would disagree with the symbolism in Revelation and the difficulty presented in determining the meanings. My intent was to show that the scriptures you referred to did indeed refer to a visible, tangible sign used by the Jews as a sign of a spiritual occurrence or memorial.

While, as you say, many words in Revelation are symbolic, there are some that are not. Our job is to discover the intended meaning of both. While normally checking a word's usage throughout scripture is helpful, it does not appear to help in this case as the scriptures posted did point to visible, outward signs imo.

Hi Abiding, naturally, the verses in question need to reference something visible to us, something that we can identify with. This is one way that God teaches us spiritual truths, by pointing to something that we can see and using them symbolically/figuratively/spiritually for something else entirely. Our focus, therefore, should not be on the visible sign. Rather, our focus should be upon the focus of the text, the spiritual condition in terms of the mind and the work one does in light of that faith. The visible sign was simply a reminder of it.

Will you share how you speculate buying and/or selling could be controlled by virtue of one's thoughts in the mind? How would one know the thoughts of others?

Sure, though I've laid it out in a previous post above, to reiterate briefly take for example the fact that in Egypt right now “Christians are being violently killed under the eyes of the international media. Also, for the first time in many years, churches are being systematically burned and destroyed. The police are taking no action and nobody is punished for it… Problems are also experienced in day-to-day life because calls are often made in the media not to buy from Christian merchants or to sell anything to Christians. Businessmen are therefore faced with a struggle for economic survival. Christians are indirectly excluded from employment, for example by job advertisements specifying ‘a female employee with headscarf’” (Read more: http://wp.me/p1qlPa-29x). Another example is in Iraq where Muslims are destroying Christian businesses and leaving notices stating that “If anyone decides to reopen his store, we will kill him” (Read more: http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2nN).

Those are just two examples where buying and selling is being controlled by virtual of one's spiritual condition, that is to say, because of what they believe and what they do. In increasing measure, Christians are being discriminated against and are not being permitted to buy or sell, or cannot even find employment in order to make money to buy, or open a business to make a living. But Muslims are permitted simply because they are Muslim. They are associated with the "number" of the Beast according to Revelation 13:18. Why do I say that, you ask? Because the word for “number” in Rev 13:18 (arithmos) does not simply mean number. It also means multitude. This is significant because it therefore means that the Greek text can also be translated as “the multitude of the beast: for it is the multitude of a man.” And what man would that be? There is nothing in the text telling us that the man referred to here must be the end-of-days Antichrist. In fact, consider the following — in order to convert to Islam one must recite the Islamic creed, called the Shahada, by declaring, “There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah.” Because of this very fact it therefore stands to reason that the multitude of a man refers not to an eschatonic Antichrist, but rather to Mohammed, the founder and prophet of Islam. If you cannot acknowledge Mohammed, you cannot become a Muslim. Thus, the multitude of the Beast, which is the multitude of a man, are they who receive the Mark of the Beast upon their ‘foreheads’ and are therefore destined for destruction. This is the direct antithesis or contradistinction to the great multitude, which is the multitude of the Lamb (Rev 7:17, 14:4) that receives the seal of God upon their foreheads (Rev 7:3, 14:1) and are therefore destined for redemption (cf Eph 4:30). One multitude is lost and separated from Christ forever (Rev 14:11), the other is saved and received unto Christ (Rev 7:15-17, 19:6-9, 22:2-5).

[Jericho]

I haven't been following the thread too closely but I'll throw in my two cents about the Mark of the Beast. The MOB will very much have to an actual mark on or in the body, the very Greek word for "mark" (charagma ) implies a scratch or an etching and is related to another Greek word charax, which means "to sharpen to a point". Two "physical" locations are given for the MOB, the right hand or forehead. This is because a person may not have always have a right hand but they will have a forehead.

Satan is not omnipresent and in order to have control he's going to have to use technology. Some sort of RFID chip or tattoo will be used in transactions and to monitor a persons movements. Since tattoos have become mainstream, people are already conditioned to marking themselves ironically enough.This sort of control is unprecedented in human history and offers complete control and is a perfect device for Satan. Obviously putting a chip in your skin in itself is not a damnable offense. But some sort of oath of allegiance to the AC (ie worshiping him) is required to get it and that is when it crosses blasphemies threshold and they essentially sell there souls to the devil.

[Abiding in His Word]

Hi again Mitchell,

Those are just two examples where buying and selling is being controlled by virtual of one's spiritual condition, that is to say, because of what they believe and what they do.

Thanks for your explanation of how one's thoughts might be known as a qualifier for the mark in Rev. 13. While it's true that those things are happening to believers, I would categorize them under the term persecution rather than "marking" them according to their spiritual condition. We can just agree to disagree on this particular passage of scripture.

I do want to add a clarification (hopefully) about what is figurative/symbolic and what is not in that same chapter. Most often if there is the possibility of a word being used figuratively, the Greek meaning will indicate that. For example, verse 14 reads:

And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. Rev 13:14

The Greek meaning for the word "wound" reflects the possibility of a figurative meaning according to Strong's:

G4127
plēgē
play-gay'
From G4141; a stroke; by implication a wound; figuratively a calamity: - plague, stripe, wound (-ed).

Likewise, the meaning for the word "sword" reflects the same possibility of a figurative meaning:

G3162
machaira
makh'-ahee-rah
Probably feminine of a presumed derivative of G3163; a knife, that is, dirk; figuratively war, judicial punishment: - sword.

The word for "mark" in verse 16, however, appears to have a concrete meaning of identification rather than figurative:

G5480
charagma
khar'-ag-mah
From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): - graven, mark.

Just how I see it.....

[Mitchell]

The Greek meaning for the word "wound" reflects the possibility of a figurative meaning according to Strong's... Likewise, the meaning for the word "sword" reflects the same possibility of a figurative meaning... The word for "mark" in verse 16, however, appears to have a concrete meaning of identification rather than figurative

This might sound silly, but if that is the criteria upon which we interpret the text, then we're going to arrive at a lot of odd interpretations. For instance, the figurative Beast with the seven heads and ten horns must be wearing literal crowns since the definition of "diadēma" doesn't include a figurative understanding in Strong's concordance. Or the 144,000 must be following a literal lamb, since Strong's concordance doesn't include a figurative definition for "arnion". We conclude that the Beast's crowns are not literal because we know that the Beast is figurative. Likewise, it only stands to reason that the Beast's mark is also not literal, because we know that the Beast is figurative.

[1whowaits]

Marks have different purposes. When christians are described as being marked, it is for a spiritual purpose, only God and spirit beings can detect the mark, the mark is not detected by physical beings. The spiritual mark is not symbolic, it is literal, but can only be seen by those in the spirit realm or who are sprit beings( the beings released from the Abyss being an example).

Physical marks have a physical purpose, they are for those in the physical world. Rev 13 states -'He also forced everyone..to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark..' Buying and selling is a physical activity performed by physical beings (unless fallen angels are going into retail), and at least part of the purpose of the 'mark' is to limit a physical activity to a certain physical group.

The logical conclusion would then be that the mark is a physcial mark, on a physical location, seen by physical beings, to limit a physical activity.

[Jericho]

When it comes to symbolism we don't have to interptet what it means, the scriptures will do that itself either right then or somewhere else in the bible. For instance when Daniel had his vision about the goat and ram fighting he goes on to describe that these were symbols for Greece and Persia. Sometimes it's not that easy and you have to do a little digging but the interpretation is always somewhere in the bible.

[1whowaits]

But there appears to be another aspect to the mark, an apparent change in the spiritual condition- 'If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he to will drink of the wine of God's fury...he will be tormented with burning sulfur..and the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.'

The current spiritual condition of man is fallen, but if one worships a false god (Allah), or takes some type of marking associated with that god, or commits sinful acts in the name of that god, one can still turn form those evil ways and accept God's provision in Jesus Christ, right up until the time of death. One can be a muslim, worship a 'Mahdi' and still later convert to Christ and receive eternal life.

But in the taking of the mark and worshipping of the AC appears to change this, Rev 14 appears to state that those who worship the beast and take his mark are then condemned to eternal punishment at that point, there appears to be no provision for repentance. The angel in Rev 14 appears to be stating that the mark should not be taken because if one does take the mark, the punishment is eternal.

So what changes, why is worshipping the AC worse than worshipping any other false god? Cannot Satan worshippers currently turn from their evil and accept Christ a saviour? Why would receiving a physical mark be worse than any other markings men have done through the ages? There appears to be more to the mark, something that changes the spiritual condition (and the physical?) so that apparently one is beyond rescue.


Are there beings in scripture who are beyond rescue, who cannot repent, who are not afforded forgiveness?

The mark may suggest an answer, it is the name of the beast or the number of his name. The number of the beast is man's number, 6, but it is also partly God's number, 3. This would suggest that the beast claims to be or appears to be combination of both numbers, a 'man-god', a hybrid, a combination of a spirit being (3) and a physical being (6). How would one become a man-god? Have there been such beings in the past? Were they beyond redemption?

[Jericho]

But there appears to be another aspect to the mark, an apparent change in the spiritual condition- 'If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he to will drink of the wine of God's fury...he will be tormented with burning sulfur..and the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name.'

The current spiritual condition of man is fallen, but if one worships a false god (Allah), or takes some type of marking associated with that god, or commits sinful acts in the name of that god, one can still turn form those evil ways and accept God's provision in Jesus Christ, right up until the time of death. One can be a muslim, worship a 'Mahdi' and still later convert to Christ and receive eternal life.

But in the taking of the mark and worshipping of the AC appears to change this, Rev 14 appears to state that those who worship the beast and take his mark are then condemned to eternal punishment at that point, there appears to be no provision for repentance. The angel in Rev 14 appears to be stating that the mark should not be taken because if one does take the mark, the punishment is eternal.

So what changes, why is worshipping the AC worse than worshipping any other false god? Cannot Satan worshippers currently turn from their evil and accept Christ a saviour? Why would receiving a physical mark be worse than any other markings men have done through the ages? There appears to be more to the mark, something that changes the spiritual condition (and the physical?) so that apparently one is beyond rescue.


Are there beings in scripture who are beyond rescue, who cannot repent, who are not afforded forgiveness?

The mark may suggest an answer, it is the name of the beast or the number of his name. The number of the beast is man's number, 6, but it is also partly God's number, 3. This would suggest that the beast claims to be or appears to be combination of both numbers, a 'man-god', a hybrid, a combination of a spirit being (3) and a physical being (6). How would one become a man-god? Have there been such beings in the past? Were they beyond redemption?

There certainly seems to be a spiritual aspect of the mark. I'm not sure what it all will involve, but perhaps when they take the mark there hearts become so hardened against God, like Pharaoh, that they become incapable of repenting. It's interesting that after God marks the 44000 with his mark then Satan imitates this by marking his people with his mark. We can see during the tribulation that the hearts of men become more hardened in rebellion against God.

[1whowaits]

Mitchell, you note the similarities between Gog-Magog, but you appear to miss the significant differences between the 2 events. The most notable difference is that Gog is killed and buried in a mass grave in Ezek 39, while the AC is captured alive and cast into the lake of fire in Rev 19.

You appear to suggest that Gog is not mentioned elsewhere is scripture but Isa 14 does describe a king who is buried in a mass grave, consistent with Gog, who is also associated with Satan, while Ezek 28 describes another king associated with Satan who is consumed by fire, consistent with the AC. The differences between Gog and the AC are repeated in scripture, as are the similarities, they are both influenced or controlled by Satan, but they are still 2 different individuals.

Joel 2 also describes an attack on Israel from the north, consistent with Gog-magog, which is described separately from armageddon in Joel 3, the event in Joel 2 occurring 'before' the coming of the great and terrible day.

Noting the similarities between the descriptions of events is not enough to state that the same event is being described, the differences must also be reconciled and accounted for, which in the case of Gog-magog vs. armageddon, has not yet been done.

[1whowaits]

Jericho, i was thinking more along the lines of what you asked in a paralell thread, is the AC a Nephillium? The nephillium appear to be a hybrid, a combination of 2 separate lines that produce an atypical result. The combination of the 'sons of God' with the 'daughters of men' should not result in a race of giants if both lines are human, unless they were able to perform genetic manipulation. The conclusion would be that the genetic change that produced a race of giants would likely be due to a combination of human and non-human genomes.

And that is the theory that the 'sons' were fallen angels who were able in some way to produce a hybrid race of giants. as we now know it is possible to manipulate genetic material to produce hybrids of different species, all that is required is the genetic material and the technology to manipulate it, likley well within the capability of fallen angels.

Whether angels contain or are able to produce genetic material is not stated in scripture, but it could be suggested. There are certain angelic beings that are described as living creatures, which can also be translated as 'beasts' in hebrew, the Cherubim of Ezek and Rev. These living creatures have the appearance of a man but they also have faces of man and animals. Whether these beings contain genetic material is not stated, but their descriptions as living creatures or beasts with animal and man appearances could suggest that they have a genetic makeup.

The AC is a man, but he is also something else, something non-human, a 'beast...will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction..' Rev 17. The abyss is the place of punishment of demons and fallen angels, there is no evidence that any man has been to the abyss, the beast from the abyss would then be a demon or fallen angel. As the 'beast' can be the term used for a 'living creature', the beast from the abyss, the angel from the abyss, may well be a Cherubim.

As the beast from the abyss, possibly a cherubim, is equated with the AC, a man, the AC may himself be a hybrid, a combination of man and spirit being, which could then call himself a man-god, a hybrid, in essence a nephillium.

Would one have to be born a hybrid, or could one become a hybrid in adulthood? It is technically possible to manipulate DNA using a vector such as a virus, even in adulthood. And this appears to be the goal of segments of the scientific community even now, an attempt to improve the human race, by combining human DNA with non-human DNA, resulting in an 'improved' human.

Could it be that Satan is taking the world back to the events of the 'days of Noah', in more way than one?

[lamb7]

Nice posts, 1whowaits.

Mitchell, you state that there needs to be consistency when interpreting the signs and symbolism:

The Beast = The Devil
The Dragon = The Antichrist
The Horns = The Kings
The Crowns = The Kings
The Lamb = The Saviour

The Mark = ???

If we’re going to be consistent here; why would the ‘mark’ then represent an ‘invisible’, non-tangible belief and not stay consistent in representing something tangible and physical? Why isn’t the metaphor of the ‘mark’ then defined as are the others? The 'mark' cannot then symbolize another mark, the 'spiritual mark' you claim, it would not be consistent to me.

Maybe, just maybe the ‘mark’ is then, just a mark; a tangible, visible mark; exactly what it states. I believe it will be something akin to the tattoos the Jewish people received during the Holocaust, something that cannot be removed. And as 1whowaits has stated, the mark is the one thing that cements the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit's truth and cannot be forgiven, hence those who receive it have no chance of repentance.

I also feel that the mark will be something proudly worn by those who worship the beast and I also believe that those who adorn it on their foreheads will be the more elite of these followers and will want it seen by all. It will be the bumper sticker of that future religion of the AC, boldly showing whom their allegiance belongs to as well as neglecting those who do not have it: buying and selling.

[Tevye]

Or in Iraq, for instance, where Muslims are destroying Christian businesses and leaving notices stating that “If anyone decides to reopen his store, we will kill him” (Read more: http://wp.me/p1qlPa-2nN). The Mark of the Beast is alive and well and, as we can see, is being enforced in increasing measure right now as we speak.

Throughout the generations the world in various levels of persecution
has been against Christians, and actively suppressing their livelihood.
In the event that the Mark of the Beast is active and in use
who would be the specific 'he' who is the one providing and causing?

"And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."

Islam in it's extreme is in a war against Christians, but...
According to Daniel chapter 11 the king who is seen
as Antichrist or the Beast comparitively in scripture
does not honor the faith (or god) of his fathers, so if he
does rise up out of Islam and then turns against it
then his mark would not be of Islam, but of himself.
It is also described in Revelation 13 that the mark
is the number of a man, verses a symbol of religion
giving us the indication that it is not spiritual, but physical.
The beast and his empire of the enemy attempt
to fulfill what he set in motion in the garden of Eden.
To get humanity to see itself as God and to set up
one man as the fulfillment of his claim made in the garden.

"you will be like God, knowing good and evil"
When Antichrist claims to be god, in the middle of Daniel's 70th week
he is ultimately fulfilling the statement made by the serpent in the garden.


Christ the Son of Man came to defy the claim of the enemy
and to reclaim humanity to Himself. When the fulfillment
of prophecy concerning the beast, his empire and his mark
has reached it's appointed time then the Lord will appear in glory
and cut short the attempt (to make it so no flesh would survive) by the emeny.

(the meek shall inherit the Earth)
The goal of the serpent is to eliminate 'the elect' from the earth that God gave her.
The 'Dragon' want's the Earth for his throne, and his ultimate goal is to have it for himself.
So his plan is to get humanity to weaken itself through one common means of destruction.
Self preservation. We destroy ourselves in the name of 'peace and security.'
When the serpent is cast out of Heaven to the Earth he will use all of his authority
to claim the planet for himself and his minions. At that time, the appointed time
he will give his dominion, power and authority over to one man who will pass on
the directive for those willing to survive (after a great destructive battle)
that his provision is that they must receive a mark, and identification
to the beast's empire. Eventually leading to their worship and allegiance
to the beast and the dragon who has 'graciously' provided in the time of trials.
(the great tribulation) The enemy has used many religions throughout history
to defy God and His plan for His creation.
Islam is but one of many means to the end. (of the age)

Yeshua was asked
"What will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?"
Yeshua answered with a verbal map of what will happen in sequence
so we would know and hold fast to what will lead up to His appearing.
It was as if He was telling us that when it begins, it will be swift and in order.
(verses alligorical or events spread out over generations leading to a final end)

Yeshua wanted us to know and have it written upon our hearts for the time
when we may have the physical book of the Bible taken from us.
(may that never happen) Because He knows that when
the full deception has come, many will come 'in His name'
and mislead others away from the plumb line
He firmly established for us in the Ollivette Discourse
as seen here in: Matthew chapter 24

Something interesting to consider
and note is how the disciples asked Yeshua...
when he made the statement...
"Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple,
and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
And Jesus said to them,
“Do you not see all these things? Assuredly,
I say to you, not one stone shall be left here
upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

I believe that the destruction of the temple in AD 70
was not the fulfilment of this prophecy by Yeshua.
As the disciples asked when ... “Tell us, when will these things be?

And the Lord responded with what is to happen in a specific time
when all of the temple mount stones (foundation, walls ... "all these things")
would be thrown down. I believe that the Antichrist (the beast) will be against Islam
and Judiasm, so as to destroy the whole temple mount and all the huge stones in Jerusalem.
Including the Islamic buildings up on the temple mount ...fulfilling Yeshua's prophecy in Matt. 24:2.

A closer look at Daniel 9...

"And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."

sanctuary...
קֹדֶשׁ
1) apartness or
b) set-apartness, separateness
(that which seperates) (a place of intolerance?)
or the place that has divided the city for generations.

the people of the price to come will destroy, not only the city
but the place of intolerance to what is not Islamic or Jewish.
(maybe to reclaim Jerusalem and to blame Israel with it's destruction)
The people of the prince to come
(Islamic warriors?)
pave the way for their prince to enter Jerusalem
but then....

"The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;"
(after a great destructive battle, shall come the 70th week?)

The 70th week of Daniel begins...
(10 kings give their authority over to him)

“The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom
as yet, (up until the future appointed time of the 70th week)
but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast."

"But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering."

Antichrist claims to be god,
Islam is decimated according to Revelation 18:10.

"And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”

And on a wing of abominations....
An abomination against God leading to the act
of causing all to take the mark of the beast.

The prophecies of Yeshua and the prophet Daniel are in complete harmony
giving us the light of truth and the map of insight to see what will happen.
...just as Jesus said it 'all' would be.

If we dismiss the warning that people will be literally branded
with a forever (permanent) mark upon thier bodies
(leading to all types of un-spiritual acts and deception)
then are we truly being the 'real' prophets of Yeshua?

Because of this very fact it therefore stands to reason that the multitude of a man refers not to an eschatonic Antichrist, but rather to Mohammed, the founder and prophet of Islam.

Being the beast from the sea or the first beast of Revelation 13
and depicted in the image of the beast set up by the second beast of the earth.

The challenge I would have with that theory is that he existed after the Apostle John
and the beast (who seen in chapter 13) sets up the mark of the beast, existed before
the apostle and existed not in the time of the apostle, and will exist again some time after John.

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life
from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast,
because he once was, now is not, and yet will come."

"This calls for a mind with wisdom."

“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom,
but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast."

The 10 horns of the first beast of Revelation 13 receive autority for one hour
along with, or at the same time as the beast (antichrist) so this beast
who has an image set up for him by the second beast or the false prophet of Rev. 13
this first beast who also has a (visible) mark of allegience set up on his behalf
must have existed in one of the five empires that existed prior to the Roman one
that existed in the time of the Apostle John. This is the message John is saying
that will astonish the whole world when they see this beast formed. That...
he once was a king (or prince) and will be here to rule an empire once again.

From what we know of Islam, it cannot claim an existence from before the time of Rome.

Not to say that Islam will have no part in his ascending to his throne of power
I believe that Islam will be the catalyst for his rise to emperor with the 10 kings.
But they will hand over their authority to him and then he will turn his back upon Islam.
And in turn Muslims will, after he proclaims to be god, turn their backs upon him.
Leaving us with the understanding (through logical deduction and the wisdom of God)
that the mark of the beast will be of a man who is set apart from the god of his fathers.
As seen in Daniel chapter 11.

[Mitchell]

Mitchell, you note the similarities between Gog-Magog, but you appear to miss the significant differences between the 2 events. The most notable difference is that Gog is killed and buried in a mass grave in Ezek 39, while the AC is captured alive and cast into the lake of fire in Rev 19.

Hi 1whowaits. Daniel 11:45 says that Antichrist "shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him." According to Daniel, Antichrist comes to "his end" in the mountains of Israel. Ezekiel says in 39:4 that "You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you...". They are both saying the same thing. Antichrist comes to his end upon the "mountains of Israel". But how can this be, you ask, if in Revelation 19:20 we read, "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone"? How does Christ do this, especially in light of the fact that Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 that "the Lord shall consume [Antichrist] with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy [him] with the brightness of his coming"?

Here is what we know:

* Antichrist comes to "his end" or "falls" upon the "mountains of Israel."
* Antichrist is destroyed with the "epiphanaea" of Christ's coming.
* Antichrist is "cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

In light what Scripture tells us regarding the end of Antichrist, allow me to ask you this: When Antichrist is "cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone", does he not come to his end? Could this not also be symbolizing what similarly happened with Korah in Numbers when he and his men were consumed alive by the fire?

Numbers 26:10, “And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.”

Ezekiel also records that right around this time "there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who [are] on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground" (38:19-20). John also records this in Revelation 16:18-20, "... a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth ... the cities of the nations fell ... Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." How can all the "mountains" be thrown down twice? If Christ has not yet returned, how can all men upon the earth shake at the presence ["paniym", face] of Jesus per Ezekiel 38:20? 2 Thessalonians 2:8 says that Antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of his parousia [presence](!) These are separate descriptions of the exact same event.

In fact, Ezekiel even declares that God is in Israel:

Ezekiel 39:7, "So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel."

The "Kaddosh Yisrael" is mentioned 32 times in Scripture, but uses the phrase "the Holy One of Israel". Only once is it ever translated "the Holy One in Israel" -- and that is because Yeshua is now physically present. And this is precisely why His Holy Name will be known in the midst of His people. It is precisely why they will no longer pollute His Holy Name any longer. And it is precisely why the heathen shall know -- without any doubt whatsoever -- that Jesus Christ is LORD.