What is "Co-Redemptrix"?

Discussion and debate of Religions that contradict scripture

What is "Co-Redemptrix"?

Postby Martha on Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:05 pm

I'm not Catholic, so I'm not familiar with their terms. I understand "Redemptrix", but who (or what) is the "Co"? Mary and who or what else?

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Latin vs. English

Postby Mario on Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:10 pm

Martha,

Much confusion has come about with the term co-Redemptrix, which is a Latin expression. One must remember that Latin is a dead language in the sense that its words have a precise meaning which are no longer subject to change. English, on the other hand is a living language. Let me give some examples.

I'm Irish and enjoy singing When Irish Eyes are Smiling. Still, I hesitate ever so slightly when singing the line:

When Irish hearts are happy, all the world seems bright and gay...

Obviously, the word has morphed significantly in the last 40 years.

This cannot occur in Latin. The Latin prefix, co-, simply means with. The ix at the end indicates one closely associated. So the translation of co-Redemptrix means: someone closely associated with the Redeemer, as in assisting in the salvific plan.

In English, co- has morphed into sharing equally or on an equal footing. We can think of words such as co-worker or co-conspirator. The problem arises when we attach the English meaning of co- to the Latin word, co-Redemptrix.

Let me give a hypothetical situation. A friend of mine is non-Christian and I'm praying for his conversion. One day he comes and says he has accepted Christ and he thanks me for my prayers. In the Latin sense of the word I was a little co-Redemptrix, while Jesus is Redeemer and Savior. The credit and glory goes to Jesus, not to me. There is no equality, though God honored the prayers of his son and somehow used them to help facilitate this conversion.

Martha, to answer your question, Catholics have come to assign the title, Co-Redemptrix, to Mary, since they view her as the disciple par excellence and most closely associated with Christ's role as Redeemer.

Another quick example that might otherwise prove confusing is found in official Catholic documents that use the Latin word, cult, to refer to a popular devotion. Nowadays, in English, the word, cult, refers to a perverted or demonized form of Christianity.
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Postby BeTheMoon on Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:12 am

(Snip from article below)
The messages of the Lady of All Nations speak of her roles as Advocate, Mediatrix, and Coredemptrix. Once the Church recognizes these roles, according to the messages, she will intercede for us for a massive outpouring of grace.


Interecession from anyone other than God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is of Satan.


Source: The Lady of All Nations
"Under this title I will save the world"


Pope John Paul II calls Mary
Our Advocate, Mediatrix, and Coredemptrix
Ricardo Cardinal J. Vidal
Manila Cathedral, June 1, 2001

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are gathered to honor the Virgin Mary, the Lady of All Nations. It is a festive occasion, glittering with all these bishops, all these devotees, all these dignitaries, flags and costumes. But it is also a solemn occasion, for we gather to ask the special protection of Our Lady. She promises to grant grace, redemption and peace to all who have recourse to her.

Our world is in grave need of grace, redemption and peace. You who represent your embassies know this well. Economies are faltering, jobs are vanishing, disease is spreading, violence is festering, wars are exploding. We turn to the Lady that we may be spared from degeneration, disaster and war.

It is the truth that will lead to the flooding of this urgent grace. The messages of the Lady of All Nations speak of her roles as Advocate, Mediatrix, and Coredemptrix. Once the Church recognizes these roles, according to the messages, she will intercede for us for a massive outpouring of grace.

I have been asked to speak on her roles as Advocate, Mediatrix, and Coredemptrix. These are heavy theological terms. I will try to explain them to you in simple language. Then I will quote the words of the Holy Father. Many times has Pope John Paul II used these titles in honor of the Virgin Mary.

Jesus who prays for us, Mediates for us, Sacrifices himself for us

Let us start by recalling the example of Our High Priest, Jesus Christ. Jesus prays for us, mediates to the Father for us, sacrifices himself for us.

Jesus prays to the Father for us, he is our Advocate (1 Jn. 2:1). We are Christians, followers of Christ, so we pray for each other. On earth, we pray for those who need God's help. The saints in Heaven and the souls in Purgatory pray for us, and all that prayer is a great circle of intercession.

In the Old Testament, Moses was a mediator between God and the People of God. In the New Testament, Jesus Christ lived with us and became our one Mediator to the Father (1 Tim. 2:5). We are Christians, so we are called to mediate Jesus to each other. That is part of the beautiful doctrine of the communion of saints. Today we your Bishops and priests depend on the mediation of Jesus to mediate between God and you.

Jesus is our one Redeemer. We are saved through his Sacrifice at Calvary. Now, this sacrifice is made present every time we celebrate Mass. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (1368) teaches that we can join our sufferings with the sufferings of Jesus. In uniting our small sacrifices to the great sacrifice of Jesus, we help save souls. In that sense, we are coredeemers with the one Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

As St. Paul said, "I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, the Church" (Col 1:24). The Catechism (1521) explains that our suffering "acquires a new meaning; it becomes a participation in the saving work of Jesus."

Mary, Advocate with Jesus our Advocate

Mary is the model of the Church, she is the exemplary follower of Christ. More than any Christian, she excels in these roles. She is the Advocate who prays for the whole Church, following Jesus our Advocate. She is the Mediatrix with the one Mediator, Jesus. She is the Co-redemptrix with the one Redeemer, Jesus.

Mary is our Advocate. At the wedding in Cana, she brought the needs of the couple to Jesus. She said to him, "They have no wine," prompting the Lord to perform his first miracle of changing water to wine. Today she still brings our petitions to Jesus. We can imagine her pleading, "They have no drinking water, no jobs, no justice, no peace in their homes, no joy in their marriage." And Jesus would respond by filling our lives with the wine of grace.

The title of Advocate goes back to St. Irenaeus and St. John Damascene in the early years of Christianity. In the Hail Holy Queen, we ask her, "turn then, most gracious Advocate, your eyes of mercy upon us." She intercedes for us with the Lord Jesus.

Mary, Mediatrix with Jesus our One Mediator

Mary is our Mediatrix. In ancient Israel, King David began a line of kings that ruled over the People of God. During that time, the Queen of Israel was not the wife of the King. The Queen of Israel was the Mother of the King, or the Queen Mother (see 1 Kg. 2:19). She was the channel between the King and the People of God.

Mary is our Queen Mother. She is the channel between the Son of David, Christ the King, and the People of God. At Cana, Mary told the servants, "Do whatever He tells you." Today she continues to tell us Christians, do whatever Jesus tells you.

Even back in the Middle Ages the saints called the Virgin Mary our Mediatrix. She was hailed as Mediatrix by St. Bernard of Clairvaux, St. Bernarddine of Sienna, St. Bonaventure.

Through his sacrifice at Calvary, Jesus grants to us all grace. Mary is the channel of Jesus who is for us all grace.

Mary's role as Mediatrix flows from the unique office of Jesus as Mediator. Vatican II teaches that her influences as Mediatrix "flow forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rest on his mediation, depend entirely upon it, and draw all their power from it. In no way do they impede the immediate union of the faithful with Christ. Rather, they foster this union" ("Dogmatic Constitution on the Church," No. 60). Vatican II continues that Mary's mediation, "takes nothing away from the dignity and power of Christ the one mediator, and adds nothing to it" (No. 62).

The Catechism (969) says "Therefore the Virgin Mary is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix."

Mary, Co-redemptrix with Jesus our One Redeemer

Mary is our Co-redemptrix. We must be careful in the use of the word because of possible misinterpretation. In the English language, the prefix "Co" implies equality, as in the case of the words "co-pilot," "co-author," "co-captain." The term Co-redemptrix comes from the Latin "cum," meaning "with." In Spanish, the word "con" means "with."

Mary is not equal with the Redeemer -- she is a finite creature, while Jesus is the infinite Creator. Rather, she suffered WITH the Redeemer in his act of saving us. She cooperated WITH the plan of redemption by consenting to become the Mother of the Redeemer. From his conception till his birth till his ministry till his death, Mary was WITH the Redeemer.

By the will of the Father, the Redeemer came to the world. For this, the Father chose Mary from the very beginning. She gave the Redeemer flesh and blood. As Mother of God and the Immaculate Conception, she was the handmaid of the Lord. She suffered with him for the redemption of humanity. She is Co-redemptrix.

Indeed, past Popes like Benedict XV, Leo XIII, and Pius XI have spoken of Mary's coredemptive role.

The late Mother Teresa of Calcutta summed it up well. "Mary is our Co-redemptrix with Jesus," she wrote. "She gave Jesus His body and suffered with him at the Cross. Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace. She gave Jesus to us, and as our Mother she obtains for us all his graces. Mary is our Advocate who prays to Jesus for us. It is only through the Heart of Mary that we come to the Eucharistic Heart of Jesus. The Papal definition of Mary as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate will bring great graces to the Church."

Pope John Paul II on Mary as Advocate, Mediatrix, Co-redemptrix

Pope John Paul II himself believes that the Virgin Mary is Advocate, Mediatrix, and Coredemptrix.

He said in a General Audience (L'Osservatore Romano, N. 41, Weekly Edition 11) "Mary exercises her role as `ADVOCATE' by co-operating both with the Spirit the Paraclete and with the One who interceded on the Cross for his persecutors (cf. Lk 23:24) whom John calls our Advocate with the Father (1 Jn 2:1)."

In his encyclical Mother of the Redeemer, he wrote, "Mary places herself between her Son and mankind in the reality of their wants, needs and sufferings. She puts herself `in the middle,' that is to say she acts as a MEDIATRIX not as an outsider, but in her position as mother."

The Pope said in a General Audience, "We recall that Mary's mediation is essentially defined by her divine motherhood. Recognition of her role as MEDIATRIX is moreover implicit in the expression `Our Mother'" (L'Osservatore Romano, N. 41, Weekly Edition 11).

In Guayaquil, Ecuador (Jan. 31, 1985) the Holy Father said, "As she was in a special way close to the cross of her Son, she also had to have a privileged experience of his Resurrection. In fact, Mary's role as COREDEMPTRIX did not cease with the glorification of her Son."

The Holy Father greeted the sick in his General Audience of September 8, 1982. He said, "Mary, though conceived and born without the taint of sin, participated in a marvelous way in the suffering of her divine Son, in order to be COREDEMPTRIX of humanity." (Insegnamenti di Giovanni Paolo II, I, V/3 [1982] 404 )

He said in 1985, "May, Mary our Protectress, the COREDEMPTRIX, to whom we offer our prayer with great outpouring, make our desire generously correspond to the desire of the Redeemer." (Inseg VIII/1 (1985) L'Osservatore Romano 880:12)."

Conclusion

Let us recap what we have discussed. Jesus Christ is our High Priest. Jesus prays for us, mediates with the Father for us, sacrifices himself for us. We are Christians, followers of Christ. We must pray for each other, mediate Christ for each other, makes sacrifices for each other, in union with the sacrifice of Christ.

Mary is the model follower of Christ. More than any Christian, she prays for us, she mediates Christ for us, she sacrifices and suffers with Christ, our Redeemer. She is our Advocate, Mediatrix, and Coredemptrix. These roles all flow from Jesus Christ and are all subordinate to him.

Through Church history, saints have spoken of these roles. So have past Popes. Our Holy Father indeed has called Mary our Advocate, Mediatrix, and Coredemptrix. May the whole Roman Catholic Church come to recognize and exalt these roles. May the whole world then enjoy the fruits of grace, redemption, and peace.


http://www.mariansolidarity.com/ladyofa ... pp01c.html
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Postby David L on Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:27 am

Mary? Co-redemptrix? (video documentary)
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:32 pm

This cannot occur in Latin. The Latin prefix, co-, simply means with. The ix at the end indicates one closely associated. So the translation of co-Redemptrix means: someone closely associated with the Redeemer, as in assisting in the salvific plan.


Mario, no one assists in the salvific plan, other than being witnesses. We may pray for those who need to come to Jesus. We may be his witnesses and ambassadors on this earth. We may love the Lord and tell of his wonderful blessings, we must also tell of his soon coming judgement to an earth that has rejected his son. Praying to anyone other than the Father and the Son, Jesus Christ is not given anywhere in scripture, not a commandment of the living God. Yes Mary was the blessed vigin whom God chose to bear his son, Jesus. Yes she was a good mother, who raised him in the way of the Lord, and loved Him as her savior also. She is not the queen of heaven, as this was a pagan idol in the time of Jeremiah. You may know this. No she is not a co-redemtrix, neither are you and neither am I or any other human on this earth, and that includes Moses, Elijah, and any other man or woman who has ever lived or will live.

1 Timothy 2
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



Why did the apostle Paul not tell the early church of this wonderful co-redemtrix plan of Mary at this time? Because it is not true. None of the apostles ever referred to themselves as the RCC has placed this on the dead saints and Mary, to use their names in prayers. We are all saints, all who believer as the bible clearly says. We do not need the RCC to declare us saints after we die and some miracle occurs when someone prays with our name. God forbid.

Romans 12:3 (King James Version)


3For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:28 pm

I'm moving this to the Other Religions forum.
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Postby Rich Kelley on Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:20 pm

David L wrote:Mary? Co-redemptrix? (video documentary)


Nicely done link. After that if you still believe, I just don't know.
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Postby geauxsaints on Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:53 pm

David L wrote:Mary? Co-redemptrix? (video documentary)


Lol, I had no idea this was going to be a Catholic documentary.... or is it?



I knew it! :butbutbut:
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Postby geauxsaints on Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:06 pm

Romans 16:3
Give my greetings to Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in the ministry of Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 3:7—9
We are God's co-workers

Galatians 2:9
In fact, James, Peter, and John, who were known as pillars of the church, recognized the gift God had given me, and they accepted Barnabas and me as their co-workers. They encouraged us to keep preaching to the Gentiles, while they continued their work with the Jews.

Philippians 2:25
Paul Commends Epaphroditus ] Meanwhile, I thought I should send Epaphroditus back to you. He is a true brother, co-worker, and fellow soldier. And he was your messenger to help me in my need.

Philippians 4:3
And I ask you, my true partner, to help these two women, for they worked hard with me in telling others the Good News. They worked along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are written in the Book of Life.

Colossians 1:7
You learned about the Good News from Epaphras, our beloved co-worker. He is Christ’s faithful servant, and he is helping us on your behalf.

Colossians 4:11
Jesus (the one we call Justus) also sends his greetings. These are the only Jewish believers among my co-workers; they are working with me here for the Kingdom of God. And what a comfort they have been!

1 Thessalonians 3:2
and we sent Timothy to visit you. He is our brother and God’s co-worker in proclaiming the Good News of Christ. We sent him to strengthen you, to encourage you in your faith,

Philemon 1:1
[ Greetings from Paul ] This letter is from Paul, a prisoner for preaching the Good News about Christ Jesus, and from our brother Timothy. I am writing to Philemon, our beloved co-worker,

2 Corinthians 6:1
Since we are God's coworkers, we urge you not to let God's kindness be wasted on you.



I think God wants our participation in the redemption of mankind. However the source of redemption is Jesus not anyone else. If you "witness" to someone you mean to tell me that you played no role in their redemption?

If you didn't bring them to Christ how can they be redeemed by Christ?

Christ requires our participation in His plan of redemption, in fact He commands it. If the gospel isn't preached how can anyone be saved?

All this is saying is that Mary's role of participation is different and unique from other christians. It's not saying christians including Mary are equal to Christ or anything of that nature.

I would also like to note that Catholics are not required to believe in or uphold the title of "coredemptrix" this is not a Doctrine or Dogma of the church.
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Postby bchandler on Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:43 pm

The RCC meaning of co-redemptrix is NOT simply that of a co-worker.

They are saying that Mary's suffering is equal in vlue and redmptive power as Jesus' suffering.

The also calll her a Mediatrix.

This is in direct conflict with the scripture. There is only one name, and one sacrifice by which we are saved. That of Jesus.

We have one, and only one advocate (mediator) with the father. That is Jesus.

No one else.

Mary is not, was not ever immacculately conceived as Jesus was.
Mary was not a perpetual virgin as the scripture clearly tells us that Joseph "KNEW" her after Jesus was born.
No evidence exists to my knowledge that Mary ever ascended.

RCC tradition and dogma are just plain WRONG! They are exactly the kind of pharisees Jesus railed against in his own day.

Those who by their traditions violate and make the word of God of none effect.
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Postby geauxsaints on Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:07 am

bchandler wrote:The RCC meaning of co-redemptrix is NOT simply that of a co-worker.

They are saying that Mary's suffering is equal in vlue and redmptive power as Jesus' suffering.



Where does the RCC say that Mary's sufferings are equal to Jesus?
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Postby bchandler on Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:31 pm

geauxsaints,

the titles given to Mary:

co-redemtrix
mediatrix
queen of heaven
mother of God
perpetual virgin
etc...

are all intended to deify Mary.

I don't mean to offend... but... nothing in scripture gives us any indication that she was anything other than a chosen vessel, with the right pedigree.(David's bloodline)

I am not saying she wasn't a good, honorable, righteous, and holy woman. I know a lot of women like that.

It is one thing to say that I am a co-worker. It is quite another to say i am a co-redeemer as if I have anything to do with the actual redemptive work.

I don't. You don't. Mary didn't. No one but God ever did, does, will.

It's like the difference between planting the seed, and claiming you gave the plant life and caused it to grow... You claim 1 and people will accept it. You claim the other and people will think you are a loon, and rightly so.

the title co-redemptrix is nothing less than an attempt to make Mary equal to God and to make her suffering have redemptive value in every Christians salvation.

I flatly reject such thinking. As i find no scriptural basis for it.

Does our suffering for Jesus have value? Of course... we are all given a race to run, and in running it we will draw others to Jesus. So our suffering and Mary's suffering has value... but i would never be so presumptuous as to then believe that my suffering has any salvation value. I don't, won't, can't, save anyone. All i can do is tell them who they need to seek for salvation... which is only my righteous duty for the gifts that God has bestowed upon me and us all.

I have read the statements of various popes regarding Mary's role as co-redemptrix and i would have to say that to believe that they are trying to do anything less than deify Mary is naive.
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Postby geauxsaints on Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:58 am

Romans 10
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

When we preach the gospel we are participating in Gods redemptive plan. Am I looking at this wrong because I'm Catholic, is this an inaccurate interpretation of scripture?

Of course that doesn't mean WE can save as if we were Christ. Our participation is bringing people to Christ. He is the one who saves, but if no one was brought to that point by someone then no one would have been saved.

If calling Mary Co-redemptrix is making her equal to God or in some way is an attempt to deify her, then using the same logic, Paul calling christians Co-workers would be putting them on equal footing with God as well.
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Postby OBXBob on Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:35 pm

geauxsaints,

You wrote:

Romans 10
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

When we preach the gospel we are participating in Gods redemptive plan. Am I looking at this wrong because I'm Catholic, is this an inaccurate interpretation of scripture?

Of course that doesn't mean WE can save as if we were Christ. Our participation is bringing people to Christ. He is the one who saves, but if no one was brought to that point by someone then no one would have been saved.

If calling Mary Co-redemptrix is making her equal to God or in some way is an attempt to deify her, then using the same logic, Paul calling christians Co-workers would be putting them on equal footing with God as well.


This argument is absolutely not accurate. There is only one redeemer. While it is true that we do the will of the Lord, we are no co-redeemers!

IMO, your argument is not dissimilar to one saying that the scalpel a brain surgeon uses in a brain surgery is a co-brain surgeon! It's just not so. We are simply vessels that the Lord uses to do His work here on earth. We are not co-redeemers!

YBIC,


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Re: Latin vs. English

Postby geauxsaints on Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:06 pm

Mario wrote:This cannot occur in Latin. The Latin prefix, co-, simply means with. The ix at the end indicates one closely associated. So the translation of co-Redemptrix means: someone closely associated with the Redeemer, as in assisting in the salvific plan.

In English, co- has morphed into sharing equally or on an equal footing. We can think of words such as co-worker or co-conspirator. The problem arises when we attach the English meaning of co- to the Latin word, co-Redemptrix.


Co-redemptrix = someone closely associated with the Redeemer.

Co-redeemer and Co-redemptrix do not have the same meaning.
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Postby crmann on Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:21 pm

Jesus told us in Matthew 11:11,
"Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Where does this place Mary, the mother of Jesus?

Hebrews 92:7 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment... Is Mary excluded from this? I say No!

Our God is a jealous God.

I, The Lord your God, Am A Jealous God. Exodus 20:5


Exodus 20:5 "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me..."


Exodus 34:14 "Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 4:24
"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Joshua 24:19 "Joshua said to the people, 'You are not able to serve the LORD . He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.'"

Nahum 1:2 "The LORD is a jealous and avenging God;..."


God demands and wants that which He possess. Exodus 20:4-5 says, "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God..." Notice that in this verse God is talking about being jealous if someone gives something that belongs to Him to another.

Does this include giving Mary something she does not deserve?

In these verses, God is speaking of people making idols and bowing down and worshiping those idols instead of giving God the worship that belongs to Him alone. God is possessive of the worship and service that belong to Him. It is a sin (as God points out in this commandment) to worship or serve anything other than Him. What God is jealous for belongs to Him; worship and service belong to Him alone, and are to be given to Him alone.

If a husband sees another man flirting with his wife, he is right to be jealous, for only he has the right to flirt with his wife. This type of jealousy is not sinful. Rather, it is entirely appropriate. Being jealous for something that belongs to you is good and appropriate. Jealousy is a sin when it is a desire for something that does not belong to you. Worship, praise, honor, and adoration belong to God alone, for only He is truly worthy of it. Therefore, God is rightly jealous when worship, praise, honor, or adoration is given to idols, and even to Mary. This is precisely the jealousy the Apostle Paul described in 2 Corinthians 11:2, "I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy..."

Nowhere in God’s word are we told to worship, praise, honor, or to even adore Mary, the earthly woman who God used to give birth to His son, the Lord Jesus Christ. God is not pleased that man has given Mary, the mother of Jesus, the place in worship she has been given. We can be sure that it pleases Satan very much, however.

Mary gave birth to the earthly body in which the Son of God would use here on this earth. She was not the mother of God, as God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit had existed before time began.

And even Mary needed a savior. In Luke 1:46 And Mary said: "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior". If Mary could do nothing to save herself, how can she possible do anything (anything at all) to bring about the salvation of others?

Mary is a part of the bride of Christ, just as we all are. Consider Matthew 20:20-22 Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Him with her sons, kneeling down and asking something from Him. And He said to her, "What do you wish?" She said to Him, "Grant that these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on the left, in Your kingdom." But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Jesus didn’t say, no, that position is reserved for my mother, Mary.

To even think of giving Mary the place the Catholic church and others have given her is an abomination to God. God and God alone is to be worshipped and given a place of honor.

The fact that we are even discussing it here is evidence that pagan and false worship is taking place.

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Postby geauxsaints on Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:51 pm

Wow you really nailed down all corners on that one :wink:
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Postby crmann on Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:02 pm

Dear Geauxsaints....

I have derived no pleasure in what I have written.

The Old Timer
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Postby geauxsaints on Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:43 pm

Jesus told us in Matthew 11:11,
"Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."


Wait wasn’t Jesus born of a women? Is John greater than Jesus as well? If not then that scripture would need to be looked over again

Hebrews 92:7 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment... Is Mary excluded from this? I say No!


There are plenty of examples of persons in the bible who never died Elijah and Enoch. The people of the last days will be raptured to meet Jesus in the air and will never have died. Besides all of that, Mary did die so what point were you trying to make by stating this? Even the Catholic church acknowledges Mary’s death.



On the issue of honor, does God get jealous when I honor my mother and father or does it please Him? Why is it such an abomination to give honor to the mother of Jesus? The bible says give honor to whom honor is due.

Nowhere in God’s word are we told to worship, praise, honor, or to even adore Mary, the earthly woman who God used to give birth to His son, the Lord Jesus Christ.


Luke
“From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
Holy is His name.”

Mary gave birth to the earthly body in which the Son of God would use here on this earth. She was not the mother of God


Crmann, I encourage you to read up on a time in early church history when a group sprung up believing what is called Nestorianism. They believed that Christ had 2 separate natures rather than Him being one unified person. If Mary was the Mother of Jesus and that same Jesus is God it is only logical to conclude that Mary is the Mother of God. If she is not the mother of God then Jesus cannot be God.

A mother does not merely carry the human nature of her child in her womb. Rather, she carries the person of her child. Women do not give birth to human natures; they give birth to persons. Mary thus carried and gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, and the person she gave birth to was God.

I’m interested of your opinion of Mary, what do you think of her? I agree that some catholics over-emphasize Mary and sadly some even worship her which is heresy, but I also think that alot of protestants degrade Mary and don't give her the honor she deserves.


I enjoy the discussions it helps me understand other points of view.
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Postby bchandler on Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:53 pm

Geauxsaints,

I and others here have no wish to offend you.

But we are told that the true Gospel and the cross of Christ are seen as an offence to the world.

It is obvious from your writings that you have a true love for God. It is obvious that you truely assign Jesus his rightful place as savior, and place all power and authority under him.

I congratulate you for this is well and good. But you must realize that your view is NOT the view of the RCC.

While YOU may say co-redemtrix means someone closely associated to Jesus... when you read the writings of the RCC and it's discussion of that title/position it becomes clear that what THEY mean is co-redeemer. Some of those statements have been posted here.

Taken your way... we are all co-redemtricies... IF we have been baptized in the holy spirit we are a betrothed bride... which puts us in a closer position than Mom. Just as we are ALL saints.

Taken the RCC way:

Mary suffered in a "special" way at the foot of the cross with her son that plays a part in our salvation.

Mary GAVE Jesus his earthly body. (as if it was in her power to concieve Jesus on her own.)

Mary was immaculately concieved by the holy spirit (Not found in scripture, but was primarily announced by the medjugorie apparition)

Mary is the Queen of Heaven (A title used in Jeremiah regarding a demon that the jews were worshiping instead of or in addition to God.)

Mary is The Lady of All Nations (Another title given in scripture to a demonic spirit and religous system... I forget where)


The Catholic church holds many dogma's that are phariseical. That directly violate the word of God. Such as:

Praying to saints or Mary as advocates (1Jo 2:1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Ti 2:5 For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 the One having given Himself a ransom on behalf of all, the testimony to be given in its own time,
1Ti 2:7 to which I was appointed a herald and apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie), a teacher of the nations, in faith and truth.
)

Kneeling before any image... even an image of Jesus on the cross. (Violates one of the ten commandments - Exo 20:4 You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth;
Exo 20:5 you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me;
Exo 20:6 and doing kindness to thousands, to those loving Me, and to those keeping My commandments.
)

Using repetitive prayers (Mat 6:7 But when you pray, do not be babbling vain words, as the nations; for they think that they shall be heard in their much speaking.)

Calling the people "Father" (Mat 23:9 And call no one your father on earth, for One is your Father, the One in Heaven. )

These are just a few.. and the ones in red our God's own words out of God's own mouth,

geausaints, I love you in Christ, and I pray for your often. That your eyes would be opened. So that you might come out of her so that you be not a partaker of her judgement.

The RCC, and it's anti-fundamental, eccumenical movement are in my opinion the great whore of babylon, and is fostering the end time apostacy.

I encourage you... seek Godly counsel and wisdom from the many former catholics who grace this board... there are so many... I can't imagine why else God would bring you here except to receive a true revelation of him.

If you know anything about the leaders here geauxsaints, you know that above all they seek and follow the cross, and desire nothing but truth.

I believe if you honestly seek God, and ask him to show you where truth lies and where error lies... he will never disappoint you... but you must be willing to walk away from error when it is revealed, or you **** yourself in the asking for revelation you don't intend to act on.

With all my brotherly love,
BChandler

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What is Co-Redemptrix?

Postby calvin on Tue Sep 11, 2007 11:19 pm

Amen and amen BChandler.

I think many here have been praying for geauxsaints, that he will truly reconsider what his church has been teaching.

But yes, when convicted, he must have the courage to come out of her.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:00 am

Praise the Lord, Geauxsaints, ... Look at all the wonderful praying friends you have here. And, where else can you find Bible knowledable men to guide you in the way of the Lord. BChandler has taken the time to share with you some good, wise words.

Now, as to Enoch and Elijah, let me share with you, and others who may read this thread. Enoch and Elijah were never taken to heaven.

Many people believe Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 declare that God took Enoch to heaven, and this is what I've been taught all my life. But is that what these verses really say?

Genesis 5:24 tells us that "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." Hebrews 11:5 adds: "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, 'and was not found, because God had taken him'; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

Neither scripture tells us how or where God took him, only that He did. Did God take Enoch to heaven? Clearly not, because Jesus Himself said in John 3:13 that "no one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man ..."

Further, Hebrews 11 lists many faithful men and women of the Bible (including Enoch) but concludes that "all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise ..." (verse 39). Obviously, then, Enoch neither ascended to heaven nor received the promised eternal life.

So what did happen to Enoch? Genesis 5:23 makes it clear that Enoch ultimately did die: "So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years." He lived 365 years and no more. He isn't still alive and walking with God. The expression "all the days" is used of eight other people in this same chapter-all of whom obviously died.

Hebrews 11:5 tells us Enoch was "taken away." The same Greek word refers to the remains of the patriarch Jacob being "carried" from Egypt (where he had died) to Shechem, where he was later buried.
The Scriptures simply do not reveal all the details of what happened to Enoch. They do record, however, that Elijah, in a similar manner, was physically removed by a whirlwind only to die later. Also, God instructed Moses to go to the top of Mount Nebo to die-apparently alone (Deuteronomy 32:48-50). Then God buried his body where it would not be found (Deuteronomy 34:5-6), possibly to prevent the grave site from being made into an idolatrous shrine. Something similar might have happened to Enoch.

We love you, Geauxsaints..
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:11 am

And now, about Elijah...

Elijah was a prophet of God in the ninth century B.C. The Bible states that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" 2 Kings 2:11. But does this contradict the testimony of Jesus, who was to state some 900 years after Elijah's time that "no one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man"?; John 3:13.??How can we explain this seeming biblical discrepancy? A closer look shows that the two passages can be reconciled easily enough.??Careful study shows three "heavens" actually discussed in the Bible. One is God's dwelling place-the place of His throne-and the heaven where the resurrected Jesus is today. Speaking of Christ, who is our High Priest, the Bible says: "We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens" Hebrews 8:1. Heaven is specifically called God's dwelling place Deuteronomy 26:15.??Another heaven discussed in the Bible is what we call outer space. It is the domain of the moon, planets, comets, asteroids, sun and stars. David spoke of this when he reflected on the awesomeness of God's creative handiwork, which he described as "Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have ordained" Psalm 8:3. Many scriptures mention "the stars of heaven" Genesis 26:4; Deuteronomy 1:10; 28:62; Isaiah 13:10).??Yet another heaven is the envelope of air that surrounds our planet, consisting of oxygen and other gases. This heaven-earth's atmosphere-is mentioned in such passages as Genesis 7:11-12, which describes the great flood of Noah's day: "... The windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights." The Bible also speaks of "the birds of heaven," those that fly overhead (Job 35:11; Jeremiah 16:4).??To determine which heaven is meant in a Bible passage, we must carefully consider the context. It was into the lower reaches of this third kind of heaven-the earth's atmosphere-that Elijah was taken. Let us notice the proof.??God had earlier told Elijah that he was to anoint a man named Elisha as prophet and, in so doing, designate Elisha as his successor 1Kings 19:16. Later, as Elijah and Elisha walked together, Elijah said to Elisha, "What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?" 2 Kings 2:9. This led to a discussion of God's gifts to Elisha that would allow him to fill Elijah's role.??"Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (verse 11). Elijah was now gone. The former followers and students of Elijah now knew to look to Elisha as their new leader. "Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, 'The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha'" (2Kings 2:15).??Many Bible scholars and other readers assume that Elijah at that point was made immortal and taken to the heaven where God resides. This was not the case. The sons of the prophets knew otherwise. They knew the whirlwind had simply removed Elijah to another location on earth. They exclaimed to Elisha: "Look now, there are fifty strong men with your servants. Please let them go and search for your master, lest perhaps the Spirit of the LORD has taken him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley" 2 Kings 2:16.??The disciples were concerned for Elijah's safety, so they sent out a party of 50 men to search for him. The 50 searched for three days but did not find him 2 Kings 2:17.??Another passage proves conclusively Elijah did not go to heaven. The Bible records that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah, several years after he was removed in the whirlwind.??Notice the sequence of events recorded for us in the Bible. Elijah's last recorded and dated act occurred during the reign of the Israelite king Ahaziah when Elijah told the king he would die for his sins 2 Kings 1:3,17. Ahaziah's reign lasted only about a year, which was 850 B.C.??Elijah's removal and replacement by Elisha is then recorded in the next chapter, 2 Kings 2. The story continues with incidents from Elisha's life, including an encounter with Jehoshaphat, king of Judah 2 Kings 3:11-14. Several years later Jehoram, son of Jehoshaphat, succeeded his father as king of Judah, which was 845 B.C. 2 Kings 8:16.??Jehoram proved to be a wicked king, leading the nation of Judah in rebellion against God's commandments. A few years into Jehoram's reign, and several years after Elijah's removal, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram warning him of dire consequences because of his sins. This letter is recorded in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15.??This letter proves the prophet was still alive and on earth some years after he was removed by the whirlwind and replaced by Elisha. God had chosen Elisha to succeed Elijah as His prophet, so He bodily removed Elijah to another place, where he continued to live for at least several more years-as his letter to Jehoram demonstrates.??The Bible tells us nothing more about Elijah after he wrote the letter. But he eventually died, since Hebrews 9:27 tells us "it is appointed for men to die once." Elijah, like the other prophets and righteous men of the Old Testament, died in faith, not having received the eternal life God had promised Hebrews 11:39.??As these passages show, a careful reading of the Scriptures shows that Elijah's miraculous removal in a whirlwind involved transporting him to another location in the area, not to eternal life in heaven.
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Postby BKF on Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:13 am

As these passages show, a careful reading of the Scriptures shows that Elijah's miraculous removal in a whirlwind involved transporting him to another location in the area, not to eternal life in heaven.
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:15 am

Friend, Geauxsaints..

You have lead me to rethink an error in my belief of the RCC, and that being that the RCC does not teach that Mary never died.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

#966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians.

Geauxsaints wrote:
CRmann, I encourage you to read up on a time in early church history when a group sprung up believing what is called Nestorianism. They believed that Christ had 2 separate natures rather than Him being one unified person. If Mary was the Mother of Jesus and that same Jesus is God it is only logical to conclude that Mary is the Mother of God. If she is not the mother of God then Jesus
cannot be God.


Geauxsaints, I have a number of books on early church history. I'll take the time to read up on Nestorianism. I believe I also read about Nestorianism in a book by Bart D. Ehrman called "Lost Christianities".

Oh, one other thing...
If Mary was the Mother of Jesus and that same Jesus is God it is only logical to conclude that Mary is the Mother of God. If she is not the mother of God then Jesus cannot be God.


Things of the Spirit are not always logical. Logic can be used to prove (in man's eyes ) that the Bible is not true.

Blessings, brother...
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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:24 pm

Geauxsaints, asked me:
I’m interested of your opinion of Mary, what do you think of her?


What I see and think on the selection of Mary, the mother of Jesus...

God chose Abraham to be the father of Isaac, who was the father of the Jewish people.

God chose Moses, to lead the Children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.

God chose Noah, to build a large boat to prepare for a great flood.

God chose John the Baptist to lead the way for the Messiah.

God chose Saul, who became Paul who brought the gospel to the Gentiles.

God chose twelve men, eleven who became the sowers for the New Covenant.

God chose Adam to be the first man to live on this new earth.

God chose Eve to be the first woman to live on this new earth.

God chose Mary and Joseph to be the earthly mother and father of His son, Jesus the Christ.

As I think about it, there aren’t many men and women who would be capable of being parents of the son of God....those having the right kind of personality traits which God would want the parents of His Only Begotten Son to possess. Mary and Joseph found favor in the sight of God.

Mary was the one chosen by God to bring Jesus into the world by natural, human birth. She would become a mom... Luke 1:26-38.... In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, "Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you." 29 But she was deeply troubled by this statement and was wondering what kind of greeting this could be. 30 Then the angel told her: Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 Now listen: You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end. 34 Mary asked the angel, "How can this be, since I have not been intimate with a man?" 35 The angel replied to her: The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the holy child to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 And consider Elizabeth your relative--even she has conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God." 38 "Consider me the Lord's slave," said Mary. "May it be done to me according to your word."

Many miss this, but the angel Gabriel was actually asking Mary if she would accept this responsibility to be the Mother of the Messiah.
Mary's response, "I am the Lord's servant! Let it happen as you have said" This was Mary’s answer. She could have turned the offer down. This (Luke 1:38), stands in dramatic contrast to the response of Zechariah, recorded just a few verses earlier. Although Zechariah was a priest who had spent his life serving God, he couldn't believe the angel's promise of a child to him and Elizabeth (Luke 1:18-19). Mary, however, not only believed and accepted this offer, and she rejoiced, despite the fact that an unwed pregnancy was likely to have unpleasant consequences. (Her fiancé, Joseph, had to be persuaded by a divine dream to stand by Mary [Matthew 1:18-25].)

When we look at Mary's acceptance of God's will for her life, it's tempting to imagine her as wiser and more perceptive than we are. Yet Mary's faith wasn't based on some privileged information about God's plan. In fact, Mary's reaction throughout much of her life as Jesus' mother seems to have been one of surprise and bewilderment. When the angel made his startling announcement, Mary was "confused" and wondered what he meant (Luke 1:19). When the shepherds told Mary and Joseph what the angel had said about Jesus at his birth, Mary was again "surprised … wondering what it meant" (Luke 2:18-19). When Simeon proclaimed Jesus to be the promised Christ, Mary was "surprised" yet again (Luke 2:33). Twelve years later, when Mary found Jesus talking with the teachers in the temple, she was still "amazed" and "did not understand" (Luke 2:46-50).

Clearly, Mary's act of submission to God's will in her life was an act of faith, not a reasoned response to a heavenly blueprint outlining future events and consequences. What we see is a trust and faith, combined with plain motherly pride, when she nudged Jesus to perform his first miracle, changing water into wine at a wedding feast (John 2:3-5). We see her faithfulness, combined with the pain only a mother can feel, when she stood at the foot of the cross (John 19:25). And we see her faith, combined at last with a true understanding of who Jesus was, when she met to pray regularly with the apostles and other believers after Jesus' ascension (Acts 1:14).

We, like Mary, often find ourselves surprised and confused as we try to submit to God's will in our life. We can respond like Zechariah—skeptical and demanding explanations—or we can respond like Mary, singing, "With all my heart I praise the Lord, and I am glad because of God my Savior. God cares for me, his humble servant" (Luke 1:46-48).

In having this child, who was already King, Messiah, The Anointed One - Would Mary just let Jesus fend for Himself? After all - He was of God, Himself. NO!, She had her little baby boy and loved Him before He came into the world - as mother's do. She nourished Him, taught Him, soothed Him, cuddled Him, scolded Him, but above all - loved Him. She did "Mom things" that come natural to being a mother. So, in that respect - she was "Mom".

Jesus came into this world as a flesh and blood human being. Because of this Jesus needed what every other baby needs. As He grew He required the guidance, care and love of a mother and a father.

Then too, Joseph acted as a father. Loved him, guided him, and being a carpenter, taught Jesus a trade, that of carpentering, along with Jesus’ brothers and sisters, which came later. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.  "Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles!  Isn't this the carpenter?  Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.  Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."  …  For even his own brothers did not believe in him.  Mark 6:2-4; John 7:5


As far as God thinking more of one person than another, Acts 10:34 tells us, And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.

In the end, it is not what we have done for God, but what God has done for us that matters. Mary is no exception.

I look forward to meeting and talking with Mary, as I look forward to meeting Noah, and talking with him.

YBIC,

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Postby crmann on Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:24 pm

Geauxsaints, asked me:
I’m interested of your opinion of Mary, what do you think of her?


What I see and think on the selection of Mary, the mother of Jesus...

God chose Abraham to be the father of Isaac, who was the father of the Jewish people.

God chose Moses, to lead the Children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.

God chose Noah, to build a large boat to prepare for a great flood.

God chose John the Baptist to lead the way for the Messiah.

God chose Saul, who became Paul who brought the gospel to the Gentiles.

God chose twelve men, eleven who became the sowers for the New Covenant.

God chose Adam to be the first man to live on this new earth.

God chose Eve to be the first woman to live on this new earth.

God chose Mary and Joseph to be the earthly mother and father of His son, Jesus the Christ.

As I think about it, there aren’t many men and women who would be capable of being parents of the son of God....those having the right kind of personality traits which God would want the parents of His Only Begotten Son to possess. Mary and Joseph found favor in the sight of God.

Mary was the one chosen by God to bring Jesus into the world by natural, human birth. She would become a mom... Luke 1:26-38.... In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, 27 to a virgin engaged to a man named Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, "Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you." 29 But she was deeply troubled by this statement and was wondering what kind of greeting this could be. 30 Then the angel told her: Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 Now listen: You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you will call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end. 34 Mary asked the angel, "How can this be, since I have not been intimate with a man?" 35 The angel replied to her: The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the holy child to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 And consider Elizabeth your relative--even she has conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For nothing will be impossible with God." 38 "Consider me the Lord's slave," said Mary. "May it be done to me according to your word."

Many miss this, but the angel Gabriel was actually asking Mary if she would accept this responsibility to be the Mother of the Messiah.
Mary's response, "I am the Lord's servant! Let it happen as you have said" This was Mary’s answer. She could have turned the offer down. This (Luke 1:38), stands in dramatic contrast to the response of Zechariah, recorded just a few verses earlier. Although Zechariah was a priest who had spent his life serving God, he couldn't believe the angel's promise of a child to him and Elizabeth (Luke 1:18-19). Mary, however, not only believed and accepted this offer, and she rejoiced, despite the fact that an unwed pregnancy was likely to have unpleasant consequences. (Her fiancé, Joseph, had to be persuaded by a divine dream to stand by Mary [Matthew 1:18-25].)

When we look at Mary's acceptance of God's will for her life, it's tempting to imagine her as wiser and more perceptive than we are. Yet Mary's faith wasn't based on some privileged information about God's plan. In fact, Mary's reaction throughout much of her life as Jesus' mother seems to have been one of surprise and bewilderment. When the angel made his startling announcement, Mary was "confused" and wondered what he meant (Luke 1:19). When the shepherds told Mary and Joseph what the angel had said about Jesus at his birth, Mary was again "surprised … wondering what it meant" (Luke 2:18-19). When Simeon proclaimed Jesus to be the promised Christ, Mary was "surprised" yet again (Luke 2:33). Twelve years later, when Mary found Jesus talking with the teachers in the temple, she was still "amazed" and "did not understand" (Luke 2:46-50).

Clearly, Mary's act of submission to God's will in her life was an act of faith, not a reasoned response to a heavenly blueprint outlining future events and consequences. What we see is a trust and faith, combined with plain motherly pride, when she nudged Jesus to perform his first miracle, changing water into wine at a wedding feast (John 2:3-5). We see her faithfulness, combined with the pain only a mother can feel, when she stood at the foot of the cross (John 19:25). And we see her faith, combined at last with a true understanding of who Jesus was, when she met to pray regularly with the apostles and other believers after Jesus' ascension (Acts 1:14).

We, like Mary, often find ourselves surprised and confused as we try to submit to God's will in our life. We can respond like Zechariah—skeptical and demanding explanations—or we can respond like Mary, singing, "With all my heart I praise the Lord, and I am glad because of God my Savior. God cares for me, his humble servant" (Luke 1:46-48).

In having this child, who was already King, Messiah, The Anointed One - Would Mary just let Jesus fend for Himself? After all - He was of God, Himself. NO!, She had her little baby boy and loved Him before He came into the world - as mother's do. She nourished Him, taught Him, soothed Him, cuddled Him, scolded Him, but above all - loved Him. She did "Mom things" that come natural to being a mother. So, in that respect - she was "Mom".

Jesus came into this world as a flesh and blood human being. Because of this Jesus needed what every other baby needs. As He grew He required the guidance, care and love of a mother and a father.

Then too, Joseph acted as a father. Loved him, guided him, and being a carpenter, taught Jesus a trade, that of carpentering, along with Jesus’ brothers and sisters, which came later. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed.  "Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles!  Isn't this the carpenter?  Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.  Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."  …  For even his own brothers did not believe in him.  Mark 6:2-4; John 7:5


As far as God thinking more of one person than another, Acts 10:34 tells us, And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.

In the end, it is not what we have done for God, but what God has done for us that matters. Mary is no exception.

I look forward to meeting and talking with Mary, as I look forward to meeting Noah, and talking with him.

YBIC,

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Postby geauxsaints on Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:37 pm

I suppose the basic premise is that Mary is just like any other Christian. We are all at the same level. Well, I will have to disagree with you. If we are all the same why did Christ make the distinction of choosing 12 apostles? Why of those 12 men at certain times he pulled the same three aside over and over to show and teach things that were not known to the other 9? I agree that what God has done for us is what really counts the most, but I don't feel that what we do should be cast off as something insignificant.

I cannot say that some one who lived their whole life serving Christ or even a martyr who suffered and died for His sake would be on the same level as somone who lived a rotten life and on their deathbed converted to Christ. In the same sense I can't see someone who ended up in Hell because of a small sin suffering as much as someone who has murdered millions.

Mary was the mother of Jesus and because she was His mother he gave her the honor she deserved. Does that imply that Mary is greater than Jesus or that Jesus is lower than Mary? Of course not! If we are to imitate Christ and He honored Mary why is it wrong for Christians to honor her. I don't see anything wrong with honoring Mary just like I don't see anything wrong with honoring my own mother. Honor does not put her on the same level as Christ and it certainly does not place her above Him. There is NO ONE who is above Jesus.

All of the people you listed to me are deserving of our honor, they are examples for us of how to live faithfully. There are only 2 on that list that Christ Himself honored and that in and of itself makes me believe that there was something special about Mary.
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Postby AndCanItBe on Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:19 am

I cannot say that some one who lived their whole life serving Christ or even a martyr who suffered and died for His sake would be on the same level as somone who lived a rotten life and on their deathbed converted to Christ. In the same sense I can't see someone who ended up in Hell because of a small sin suffering as much as someone who has murdered millions.



Matthew 20

1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'

16"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
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Postby crmann on Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:15 am

I love that scripture, AndCanItBe...

And Geauxsaints...

I put a lot of thought into any reply I might make that requires careful consideration. I just spent an hour writing out a response to your last post, the power went off for maybe half a second, and I lost it all. I am too exhausted to write it again for now.

I guess the gist of it was this.. Christ wants our all, anything less is not good enough. There is no place for thinking about Mary if our eyes are on Jesus. If our mind is on Mary, it cannot be on Jesus. God is a jealous God.

Mary is dead. For what is is worth, consider Eccl. 9:5,6,10...
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Love you, brother..

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Postby geauxsaints on Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:16 pm

I guess the gist of it was this.. Christ wants our all, anything less is not good enough. There is no place for thinking about Mary if our eyes are on Jesus. If our mind is on Mary, it cannot be on Jesus. God is a jealous God.


I disagree with that statement crmann.

I was reading an article and would like to post a portion of it.


"A Warning from a Non-Christian 'Ecumenist'"


Danger!


The dangers of devotion to Jesus Christ are clear. Excesses and exaggerations abound on all sides. How should we account for the extraordinary growth of the cult of Christ among the faithful? Can we not discover at its root a pernicious conception of the Father? God the Father loves us—but do the masses understand this love? No—on the contrary, they fear the Father. For them He lurks in the night as a shadowy, sinister figure, puffed up with wrath and vengeance.
Once we meditate on this distorted "God" image, we immediately apprehend the reason for the enormous growth of the Christ cult. The masses naturally seek a figure of love, a Mediator, to save them from the figure of wrath. Therefore, they gravitate to this other "love" figure, this human whom they can see, to protect them from the God they cannot see.
Look around us—everywhere we uncover evidence that the over-emphasis on Christ is swamping devotion to the Father. The name of Jesus is constantly invoked by the people—but how often do they mention the Father? Visit any "Christian" Church—you will be immediately confronted by a statue or a crucifix or some representation of Christ, ornately decorated and enthroned in the prominent place. Then search for, not a prominent place, but any place where the Father is depicted. How often will you find it?
Down through the ages we encounter the same story. How frequently in medieval times did artists paint pictures of the merciful Christ wresting our salvation from that ogre, the Father? How many stories to the same effect—the fierce God would have destroyed us, but the loving Christ held back that hand of wrath?
Such is the inevitable result of the pernicious devotion that Christ is our Savior. Christ is not our Savior—God is our Savior. The difference between us and the others may be summed up in one sentence. We say "God"; they say "God and Christ." Those two little words "and Christ," which they invariably add, contain a threat to the primacy and transcendence of God that we cannot ignore. The others try to justify themselves by claiming that "God and Christ" actually means "God through Christ," but this latter formula is, if anything, more dangerous than the first. For the doctrine of Mediator necessarily places a third person between God and His people, and implies that this third person is closer to us and loves us more than the Father Himself. It is the ultimate in anthropomorphism, the glorification of the created over the Creator.
Such glorification we can never condone. But we do realize that devotion to Christ is useful in its proper place. Christ Himself was a faithful servant of God. He would have been the first to repudiate the excesses now performed in his name. Did he not humbly exclaim, "The Father is greater than I"? (A passage explained away by modern Christians, who, while claiming to follow Christ, do not follow him in this belief.)
We should honor Christ, but we must exercise eternal vigilance lest his cult usurp the primacy of God, and we must realize that the very process of formulating statements about Christ can encourage such neglect of the Father.
In this connection, the dawn of the ecumenical age brings encouraging signs. In seeking reunion with the Jewish people, Christian ecumenists are publicly recognizing what a tremendous barrier and obstacle to reunion the Church has erected in its dogmas on Christ. Such ecumenists are increasingly desirous of showing us that their Church, too, is anchored in the fundamental belief in God, our Father. It used to be the fashion for Christian apologists (and perhaps the day will come when the very name "Christian" will be replaced by one emphasizing the more fundamental belief they hold)—it used to be their fashion to deny that devotion to Christ could distract from devotion to the Father. Increasingly, this is no longer the case. We appreciate this candor, and we extend our best wishes to Christian ecumenists as they battle against the erection of further obstacles. To them we suggest that a clear-cut warning on the dangers of devotion to Christ, especially if coupled with an emphatic proclamation of Christ's total subordination to the Father, would constitute a significant advance along the ecumenical road on which all followers of God now seek to travel. But in all charity we must also advise our brothers that any re-emphasis on Christ as Mediator or Savior, whether it comes now or in a hundred years, can only mark the end of dialogue."


How should Christians respond to this statement?

While admitting the existence of superficial and sentimental devotion to Christ, admitting also that some Christians may neglect the First Person of the Blessed Trinity, the followers of Jesus should consider the speech a disturbing one. Why? Because it associates emphasis on the Father with de-emphasis on Christ, whereas Christians associate emphasis on the Father with emphasis on Christ.

Philip said to him: "Lord, show us the Father and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known me? Philip, he who sees me sees also the Father" (John 14:8, 9).

What about the evils being perpetrated in the name of Christ? We reply that the hypocrisies and fanaticisms spring from an inadequate devotion to Christ.

Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father in heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21-22).

The danger comes from the lack of commitment in the hearts of men, not from the fact that "Lord, Lord" is on their lips. Far from decreasing the number of times one calls on the Lord, we must increase the number of times one calls on Him and means it. For we believe with St. Paul that there is only one name in which we are saved.

Now let us step back for a moment. Do we really expect these arguments to convince our non-Christian "ecumenist"? Perhaps, for they convince us. If we do, however, we are in for a shock. Barring a miracle of God's grace, they will have little positive impact.

Why?

Not because of any lack of intellectual ability, but because of our different a priori categories.

So it is with Mary. On the plane of cold, objective logic, there is no more reason to fear devotion to her as a threat to the primacy of Christ than to fear devotion to Christ as a threat to the primacy of the Father. In both cases, if—and that is the operative word—if one approaches the problem with a two-compartment psychology, if his mind identifies deficiencies with excesses and superficiality on the part of the subject with too much attention given to the object, then he can deduce a million reasons to confirm his suspicions.

The tendency of the mind to split into two compartments and then to view Compartment B as a rival to Compartment A is by no means confined to Compartment Christ versus Compartment God or Compartment Mary versus Compartment Christ. Throughout the ages the Church has battled it in a thousand forms. Depending on historical and cultural conditions, the compartments have varied—emphasis on the Church versus emphasis on Christ, devotion to the Scriptures versus devotion to the Church, the Old Testament versus the New Testament, love of God versus love of man, the desire to know God through the intellect versus the desire to love God through the will, etc.
__________________________________________



When I honor my parents does that take any honor or glory away from God? No, it does not. In fact when a person honors their parents they are actually giving honor to God at the same time. I don’t see it being any different when someone shows honor to Mary. Do non-catholics honor Mary in any sense of the word at all?

When I look at the Latin meaning of the word Co-redemptrix it doesn’t look anti biblical to me. If the meaning is as people say “co-redeemer” then I will side with everyone here in condemning it. People are trying to force an English meaning onto Latin words.

When I first read about Co-redemptrix I immediately assumed "co-redeemer" and rejected it, but later I came to understand that my understanding of the words meaning were incorrect.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:38 pm

geauxsaints wrote:When I look at the Latin meaning of the word Co-redemptrix it doesn’t look anti biblical to me. If the meaning is as people say “co-redeemer” then I will side with everyone here in condemning it. People are trying to force an English meaning onto Latin words.

When I first read about Co-redemptrix I immediately assumed "co-redeemer" and rejected it, but later I came to understand that my understanding of the words meaning were incorrect.


How do we understand this, geauxsaints?

It has always been the habit of Catholics in danger and in troublous times to fly for refuge to Mary, and to seek for peace in her maternal goodness; showing that the Catholic Church has always, and with justice, put all her hope and trust in the Mother of God. And truly the Immaculate Virgin, chosen to be the Mother of God and thereby associated with Him in the work of man's salvation, has a favour and power with her Son greater than any human or angelic creature has ever obtained, or ever can gain.

Given in Rome, at St. Peter's, the 1st of September, 1883, in the sixth year of Our Pontificate.

LEO XIII


www.vatican.va.com
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Postby geauxsaints on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:00 pm

Well, there are titles in there given to Mary that I'm sure people will disagree with.

I feel the expression that Mary has a relationship with Jesus that no other part of creation has or can ever have is true.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:05 pm

geauxsaints wrote:Well, there are titles in there given to Mary that I'm sure people will disagree with.

I feel the expression that Mary has a relationship with Jesus that no other part of creation has or can ever have is true.


This is the question at hand, geauxsaints. Does the catholic church see Mary as Co-Redemtrix?

Can we at least agree now that it does ?
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Postby geauxsaints on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:17 pm

Yes, we agree then that the Church sees it as Co-Redemptrix.

Actually the Church has never made an official declaration on the issue of that title for Mary. So, I guess its all a moot point since there aren't any doctrines defining it,lol.

The Church does not however see it as "co-redeemer".
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:23 pm

geauxsaints wrote:Yes, we agree then that the Church sees it as Co-Redemptrix.


Thank you.

Actually the Church has never made an official declaration on the issue of that title for Mary. So, I guess its all a moot point since there aren't any doctrines defining it,lol.

The Church does not however see it as "co-redeemer".


Now, you're playing with words, geauxsaints. You're too smart to even believe what you just said. It's not a moot point when the Pope himself declared that Mary plays a part in man's redemption. Words have meanings and I'm holding you to your admission that the church does see her that way regardless of the word you attribute to it.

And now if I could just get you to admit that it's not scriptural, but rather a man-made doctrine...... :roll:
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Postby crmann on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:28 pm

The following random quotes from the book Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary, by John Ferraro, is intended to give an overview of Roman Catholic dogma concerning the Virgin Mary. Ferraro's book was given the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur, which is an official statement by the Roman Catholic Church that the book "is free of doctrinal or moral error." Therefore, we can take these quotes as official Roman Catholic doctrine:

(a) She [Mary] is co-Redemtrix of the human race.

(b) The church and the saints greet her thus: "You, O Mary, together with Jesus Christ, redeemed us."

(c) God has ordained that no grace will be granted to us except through Mary. It is a doctrine preached by all the saints that no grace will come to us from heaven without passing through Mary's hands. No one will be saved nor obtain mercy except through You, O' heavenly lady. Remember this well, no one will enter heaven without passing through Mary as one would pass through a door. O' Mary, our salvation is in your hands.

(d) During His passion, Mary suffered in her heart all the pains that Jesus suffered in His body. For this reason, God exalted her so greatly.

(e) Mary is our co-Redemtrix because she gave us Jesus pledge of our salvation. Furthermore, she is co-Redemtrix of the human race, because with Christ she ransomed mankind from the power of Satan.

(f) Jesus redeemed us with the blood of His body, Mary with the agonies of her heart.

(g) We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone.

(h) Mary is our co-Redemtrix because she suffered in her heart whatever was lacking in the passion of Christ. Are we obligated to Jesus for His passions? -- so we are indebted to Mary for her participation in His passions. She gave birth to Jesus with joy; she gave birth to us, brothers of Jesus, in anguish and sorrow.

(i) Mary, Queen of the Apostles: She is queen of apostles because she formed them and directed them in their preaching. Mary is Queen of Apostles because by herself she routed all the heresies. Mary is Queen of Apostles because she is mother of grace and channel of mercy. She is Queen of Apostles because in her every hope is life and virtue. She is Queen of Apostles because she is conqueror of the Infernal Dragon. (Emphasis added.)

(j) If we spread devotion to Mary, we will gain heaven -- "Who explains me will have life everlasting."

(k) God shared His power with her [Mary]. "My mother, ask, for I must not turn away your face." Christ speaking to Mary: "Without your command, no one shall move hand or foot in the whole land."

(l) All grace is passed from God to Jesus, from Jesus to Mary, and from Mary to us. The grace of God, cure for our ills, comes to us through Mary like water through an aqueduct.

(m) Mary is the compliment of the Holy Spirit. Before God she asks not -- she commands!

(n) No true devotee of Mary will be ****** because she is the terrible conqueror of the devil.

(o) Because she believed in Christ's mission of salvation, she became the co-Redemtrix of the whole human race.

(p) Mary is holier than the saints, loftier than the heavens, more glorious than the cherubim, more venerable than any other creature.

(q) No one can acquire an intimate union with Jesus and a perfect fidelity to the Holy Spirit without being greatly united with Mary.

(r) It is necessary for us to have a mediator besides Jesus as mediator, and we will never find one more qualified than Mary. (Emphasis added.)

(s) It was never written of anyone that he became a saint without having a special devotion to Mary.

(t) When God deeply loves a soul, and finds it stained with sin, He covers it with a beautiful mantle that makes it precious to Him -- that mantle is Mary.

(u) Mary is the ark of salvation built by God on the deluge of our faults so that whoever desires may enter and be saved.

(v) Whoever is enamored of Mary, attaches his soul to a steadfast anchor that will draw him to the port of happiness.

(w) It is important to be devoted to Mary as it is to enter heaven, because no one can enter Paradise who is not devoted to Mary.

(x) In reward for humility, God gave to Mary the power of filling with blessed souls the thrones left empty by the rebellious angels.

(y) Mary is secretary of the King of Heaven. It is she who writes in the Book of Life the names of the predestined, and signs them with the emblem of God. She herself is the Book of Life from which God will read the names of the elect on the day of judgment.

(z) To be devoted to you, O' Mary, is a weapon of salvation which God gave to those whom He positively wants to save.

http://www.john3-16.connectfree.co.uk/mary.htm
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Postby crmann on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:36 pm

Dear Geauxsaints,

My comment on the "A Warning from a Non-Christian 'Ecumenist"

I would say that he is a non Chistian.....

First of all, Geauxsaints, the person who wrote this is of an apostate mind. He is the spirit of the antichrist. He is denying that Christ is God in the flesh. Consider the following three verses of scripture.

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

John 10:30 "I and My Father are one."

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The first two verses speak for themselves. The last verse is saying that not only is Christ, God the Father and God the Son, but Christ is also the Holy Spirit. He is saying that unless he departs and returns to heaven, he cannot return as the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can be in all places at all times, whereas Jesus, the Son of God, being God in the flesh can only be in one place at a time. Jesus had to return to heaven before He could return as the Holy spirit.

I say this writer is the spirit of the antichrist because of what we read in 1 John 4:3 - and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

Geauxsaints, what this fellow has written isn't worth the paper on which it was written.

Respectfully, Geauxsaints....

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Postby geauxsaints on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:46 pm

Going by the definition that mario gave us, Co-redmptrix means "one closely associated with the redeemer"

According to the Latin use of this Latin word, what about the definition is incorrect?

All i'm asking is under that definition, is the title applied to Mary justifiable or is it not?

Everyone is trying to imply that although the church is Latin and uses Latin extensively in all its works. Its meaning of the term is an english one not Latin even though the words are of Latin origin.

The pope himself can write an encyclical on any subject he chooses, but that does not establish it as doctrine. What I mean to say is this. I as a catholic am under no obligation to accept the term "Co-Redemptrix" if I so choose to.

The Imprimatur does not mean something is established catholic doctrine. It means that it does not go against current doctrine already out there.
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Postby geauxsaints on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:51 pm

Yes he is a non- christian

That is why it is titled as such. I was using it as an example of one saying when you honor one you take glory away from the other which is obviously not true.

The non-christian portion is in italics, then the response starts with "how should a christian respond to this?"
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:54 pm

geauxsaints wrote:The pope himself can write an encyclical on any subject he chooses, but that does not establish it as doctrine. What I mean to say is this. I as a catholic am under no obligation to accept the term "Co-Redemptrix" if I so choose to.


And how do you choose, geauxsaints?
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Postby geauxsaints on Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:05 pm

I lean more toward not accepting the term because catholics tend to over-emphasize Mary's role in redemption and that title adds fuel to the fire. If it was worded differently but had the same meaning I would probably accept it.

Also I'm open to the church defining it as doctrine with a broader explanation of why they chose to use it and how it relates to the faithful. If the church explained it more in depth my mind is open on the subject.

I guess this ends the discussion. :eek:
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Postby crmann on Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:11 pm

Now, in response to your words, When I honor my parents does that take any honor or glory away from God? No, it does not. In fact when a person honors their parents they are actually giving honor to God at the same time. I don’t see it being any different when someone shows honor to Mary. Do non-catholics honor Mary in any sense of the word at all?

When I look at the Latin meaning of the word Co-redemptrix it doesn’t look anti biblical to me. If the meaning is as people say “co-redeemer” then I will side with everyone here in condemning it. People are trying to force an English meaning onto Latin words.

When I first read about Co-redemptrix I immediately assumed "co-redeemer" and rejected it, but later I came to understand that my understanding of the words meaning were incorrect.

Geauxsaints, you make a play on words.

And as he [Jesus] said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, "Blessed is the womb [of Mary] that bore you, and the breasts [of Mary] that you sucked!" But he said, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" Luke 11:27


In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" Luke 1:26

"Mary being blessed among women," is no reason to elevate her to an exalted station. Centuries earlier, an angel of the Lord bestowed a similar blessing on Jael for killing Sisera, who fought against Israel for twenty years as captain of an army commanded by the king of Hazor:

"Curse Meroz, says the angel of the LORD, curse bitterly its inhabitants, because they came not ... to the help of the LORD against the mighty.

"Most blessed of women be Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, of tent-dwelling women most blessed.... She put her hand to the tent peg and her right hand to the workmen's mallet; she struck Sisera a blow, she crushed his head, she shattered and pierced his temple. He sank, he fell, he lay still at her feet ... there he fell dead. - see Judges, chapter 5

Thus, the blessing of Mary by the angel Gabriel does not magnify her or honor her anymore than the angelic blessing of Jael

Nowhere in Scripture are we told to put our eyes upon anyone other than the Lord himself.  We are told to fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfect of our faith (Heb. 12:2).

In addition, it is Jesus who is the model of virtue, not Mary.  Though she was greatly blessed, and undoubtedly a godly woman, she still needed a savior. 

The only proper object of preaching and worship is God.  Jesus said, "...You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only" (Matt. 4:10). 

The incredible danger of giving Mary any kind of honor is spoken of in Exodus 20:4-5, "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me."  God clearly warns against creating any idol before which anyone should bow or honor.  It goes without saying that the countless images of Mary strewn throughout Catholic churches all over the world are most assuredly shrines of idolatry, since thousands of times a day, Catholics over the world break the commandment of God by bowing before these images in worship.

We should look to Christ alone.  When you take your eyes off of Jesus and put them on anything else, or anyone else, you are being led astray.
 
What did Jesus himself say when told his mother was asking for him?
“There came then his brethren and his mother , and, standing without, sent unto him calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.” (Mark 3:31-35

It is notable that John, who took Mary into his home after Jesus was crucified, does not mention her in his epistles, and he only mentions her on two occasions in his Gospel (the wedding at Cana and the crucifixion of Jesus). John mentions Mary Magdalene more than he mentions Jesus' mother.

Psalm 148:13 says, “Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent ; his glory is above the earth and heaven.” This makes it quite clear that only God's name (not Mary's) is to be exalted.

When people tried to give Mary special honor and pre-eminence because she was His mother, Jesus always corrected them.

To sum up what I have been trying to say, Geauxsaints... if your eyes are on Jesus, Mary is no longer important. If you cannot let go of Mary, you cannot give Christ your all.

YBIC,

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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:15 pm

geauxsaints wrote:I lean more toward not accepting the term because catholics tend to over-emphasize Mary's role in redemption and that title adds fuel to the fire. If it was worded differently but had the same meaning I would probably accept it.

Also I'm open to the church defining it as doctrine with a broader explanation of why they chose to use it and how it relates to the faithful. If the church explained it more in depth my mind is open on the subject.


And I say this with all sincerity and concern for you. I lean toward seriously wondering why you are a member of this discussion board surrounded by those who see this teaching as heresy and contradictory to scripture. I'm also pondering the wisdom of continuing further discussion with someone whose beliefs are diametrically opposed to those in the Bible.

I'm sorry, geauxsaints, that the truth evades you.
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