question about Catholicism

Discussion and debate of Religions that contradict scripture

question about Catholicism

Postby Watching & waiting on Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:48 am

I was wondering if anyone remembers and has the link to a site that was in a thread about 5-6 months ago.... It was a thread about catholicism and the link was to a site that was by ex-catholic priests etc. about how they left the catholic religion and some of the falst teachings of the Catholic church. I need to have my mom read that site if anyone knows or remembers what it was... that would be a great help. We have recently had several conversations about the transubstantiation that catholics believe in, the bread and wine actually being turned into Jesus blood and body. I try to tell her that it is not supposed to literally turn into his blood and body but she says it is. I need help.
Isaiah 40:31 But those that hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
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Postby ruotsher on Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:38 am

I don't know about the link, but go get a copy of the book, "The Gospel According to Rome" by James McCarthy, it is a wealth of information!

>>>>>>>>>>

What former Roman Catholic priests and nuns are saying about
The Gospel According to Rome

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This book is an absolute must for pastors, soul-winners, and Catholics searching for the truth! A valuable resource providing a clear comparison of scriptural truth and the doctrines of Roman Catholicism.
--Wilma Sullivan
Former Sister of Mercy
The Gospel According to Rome is tenderly written, scripturally sound, scrupulously fair, and historically accurate. This is a book for all those who genuinely love Roman Catholics.
--Bartholemew F. Brewer
Former Discalced Carmelite Priest
I wish I had read this book 20 years ago! It would have turned me to the Bible as the source of truth by which to live. It would have freed me from doctrines and practices that neither satisfied me nor gave me life.
--Bob Bush
Former Jesuit Priest
The Gospel According to Rome presents Catholicism with fairness and great accuracy. The author draws from current Catholic documents including the new Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is refreshing to find that there is neither distortion nor ridicule but carefully researched information. This book will be of great service to both Catholics and non-Catholics who are interested in comparing Catholicism with biblical Christianity.
--Mary Kraus
Former Franciscan Sister
In 1983, as a Catholic priest, I searched in vain in Christian bookstores for something written about my Church. I wanted to read something by someone who knew Catholicism well and who also knew the Bible. Since that time, I have known many others who have made similar quests only to return equally frustrated.
The book I longed for is now in your hands. With compassion, care, and clarity, James McCarthy gives a message that is long overdue. The Gospel According to Rome is not only clear and well documented, but in it you will also feel the heartbeat of Catholicism.

--Richard Bennett
Former Dominican Priest
The carefully researched and organized Roman Catholic doctrines presented in this book are exactly what I was taught and then taught to others during my 20 years of preparation and practice as a Catholic priest. The comparison of these dogmas with the Word of God gives this excellent book a special value. I highly recommend it to all who are interested in understanding Roman Catholicism.
--Joseph Tremblay
Former Priest of the Oblates of Mary Immaculate
The Gospel According to Rome provides both a panoramic view and an incisive analysis of Roman Catholicism. Having served nine years as a cloistered nun, I especially appreciate this book's liberating message. May God use it to His glory!
--Rocío Pestaña Segovia
Former Franciscan Nun
Back to The Gospel According to Rome Page

http://www.gnfc.org/gar.html
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Postby javierruizleon on Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:44 am

If it was His literal blood, then it would contradict these verses:

"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."
Genesis 9:4

and

"Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood."
Leviticus 17:12

Prayer would work better on catholics than these two verses since they won't believe what the bible says unless a priest is reading it to them.
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Postby geauxsaints on Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:01 pm

I agree that you should pray, pray, pray. That is the most powerful thing that you can do.

Read the Bible and let God guide you.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:55 pm

I have a very interesting thing to share here about this very thing.

Was reading Ireneaus who was a very early bishop of the Christian church. In his writings he mentioned that some of the slaves who were matyred were accused of cannibalism in the taking of the lord's supper, eucharist, which the RCC calls it.

So you do need to know the difference. If I understand this from the RCC point of view, they actually have wafers put into monstrances, which are then placed in the churches and people come there and kneel to this and pray and do what they call perpetual adoration. They think that Jesus himself is acutally there. I am going to give you a website called the Real Presence. This is where this led and is leading. Anyway, first let me give you the information from the writings of Ireneaus, which denies that the early church thought the wine and bread actually turned into flesh and blood.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:07 pm

New Advent, Fragments of the Lost Books of Ireneaus
13
For when the Greeks, having arrested the slaves of Christian catechumens, then used force against them, in order to learn from them some secret thing [practised] among Christians, these slaves, having nothing to say that would meet the wishes of their tormentors, except that they had heard from their masters that the divine communion was the body and blood of Christ, and imagining that it was actually flesh and blood, gave their inquisitors answer to that effect. Then these latter, assuming such to be the case with regard to the practices of Christians, gave information regarding it to other Greeks, and sought to compel the martyrs Sanctus and Blandina to confess, under the influence of torture, [that the allegation was correct]. To these men Blandina replied very admirably in these words: "How should those persons endure such [accusations], who, for the sake of the practice [of piety], did not avail themselves even of the flesh that was permitted [them to eat]?"


Blandina from wikipedia
She belongs to the band of martyrs of Lyon who, after some of their number had endured frightful tortures, suffered a martyrdom in the reign of Marcus Aurelius (177) and concerning whose death we have the report sent by the Church of Lyon to the Churches of Asia Minor (Eusebius, Hist. eccl., V, 2). The fanaticism of the heathen populace in Lyon had been excited against the Christians so that the latter, when they ventured to show themselves publicly, were harassed and ill-treated.
While the imperial legate was away, the chiliarch, a military commander, and the duumvir, a civil magistrate, threw a number of Christians, who confessed their faith, into prison. When the legate returned, the imprisoned believers were brought to trial. Among these Christians was Blandina, a slave, who had been taken into custody along with her master, also a Christian. Her companions greatly feared that on account of her bodily frailty she might not remain steadfast under torture. But although the legate caused her to be tortured in a horrible manner, so that even the executioners became exhausted "as they did not know what more they could do to her", still she remained faithful and repeated to every question "I am a Christian, and we commit no wrongdoing."

Through fear of torture heathen slaves had testified against their masters that the Christians when assembled committed cannibalism and incest, and the legate desired to wring confession of this misconduct from the Christian prisoners. The legate received instructions from the Marcus Aurelius allowing the Roman citizens who persisted in the faith to be executed by beheading (Eusebius, HE 5.1.47), but those without citizenship were to be tortured. Blandina was therefore subjected to new tortures with a number of companions in the amphitheater at the time of the public games. She was bound to a stake and wild beasts were set on her. They did not, however touch her. After enduring this for a number of days she was led into the arena to see the sufferings of her companions. Finally, as the last of the martyrs, she was scourged, placed on a red-hot grate, enclosed in a net and thrown before a wild steer who tossed her into the air with his horns, and at last killed with a dagger

Now the Catholic church has Ireneaus as a church father and also has Blandina and a place dedicated to her, as a Saint.

Now I do not where or when the church changed this one, as the RCC did change so many things, like Mary being coredeemer, and a perpetual vigin, being assumed into heaven, etc.etc.

But the early church did not beleive this. Also what I have heard is that the RCC the way they do the eucharist is essentially sacrificing Jesus all over again, which is not to be done according to Hebrews.
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Postby geauxsaints on Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:42 pm

Fragments of the Lost Books of Ireneaus?

Is that like the lost "gospels" or the lost "books" of the bible?
I've read some of the official works of Irenaeus that we know without a doubt he wrote, like Against Heresies and its pretty contradictory to that lost book.

I'll have to read up on that though it sounds interesting.
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Postby pegmo on Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:50 pm

Here are a few links for internet sites that minister to Catholics....not sure which one you were thinking of, but one/all of these should help.
Here's the link to the page where these are listed with the active links.
[url]http://www.justforcatholics.org/links.htm[/url]

MINISTRIES TO CATHOLICS
Alpha and Omega Ministries James White
New Testament Research Ministries Eric Svendsen
Berean Beacon Ministries Richard Bennett
Proclaiming the Gospel Mike Gendron
Christian Resources William Webster
Roman Catholicism Archive
Gospel Outreach for Catholics
A Christian Witness to Roman Catholics Rob Zins
Good News for Catholics James McCarthy
Reaching Catholics for Christ
Catholic Concerns - online books by MaryAnn Collins
Papacy Uncovered Mike Gainor
In Understanding Be Adults Dermot Nash
One-fold Brian Culliton
Do/Done Bill Jackson
New Light
Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry
Ankerberg Theological Research Institute
What Every Catholic Should Know Greg Bentley
Christian Answers
Apprising Ministries
Growing Up Catholic Tim Lott

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Postby barryinaustralia on Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:07 pm

Quite a bit about the Church of Rome can be found at http://www.chick.com/default.asp

Barry
"I know Whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day." 2 Timothy 1:2
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Postby Be still on Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:19 pm

w & w,

The only one I can think of is Richard Bennett. You can find his testimony here ... http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles_pdf/rb-testimony.pdf
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Postby Nocturne on Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:53 pm

there is a book called 'the two babylons' which traces modern catholocism to it's pagan roots, it's not the easiest read in the world, but it's and eye opener for sure.

actually, I just found it online, you can read it all here, chapter by chapter!

http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/index.htm
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Postby Nocturne on Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:58 pm

a quote from one of the chapters, showing the demonic source of the papacy:

"If the Pope is, as we have seen, the legitimate representative of Saturn, the number of the Pope, as head of the Mystery of Iniquity, is just 666. But still further it turns out, as shown above, that the original name of Rome itself was Saturnia, "the city of Saturn." This is vouched alike by Ovid, by Pliny, and by Aurelius Victor. Thus, then, the Pope has a double claim to the name and number of the beast. He is the only legitimate representative of the original Saturn at this day in existence, and he reigns in the very city of the seven hills where the Roman Saturn formerly reigned; and, from his residence in which, the whole of Italy was "long after called by his name," being commonly named "the Saturnian land."
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:19 pm

geauxsaints wrote:Fragments of the Lost Books of Ireneaus?

Is that like the lost "gospels" or the lost "books" of the bible?
I've read some of the official works of Irenaeus that we know without a doubt he wrote, like Against Heresies and its pretty contradictory to that lost book.

I'll have to read up on that though it sounds interesting.


No, geauxsaints, as I said it is from your Roman Catholic Church fathers, which they have and use.

Which is one reason I never had read any of them, because they were called the church fathers of the Roman Catholic Church.

But if you go back to those who wrote before around the 300s or so, they were mostly on track.

Seems that the real mess up of the real teachings of christianity came after Constantine, to me.

Ireneaus writings are very good, and like I said these are found out at New Advent which is a catholic website.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
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Postby Watching & waiting on Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:51 am

Thanks everyone for your input and your great links. I'm sure I will find something to stear my mom towards, in fact I went ahead and ordered the book "The Gospel according to Rome".
Isaiah 40:31 But those that hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
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A clarification.

Postby Mario on Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:28 am

RomaLynnStar wrote:
...But if you go back to those who wrote before around the 300s or so, they were mostly on track.

Seems that the real mess up of the real teachings of christianity came after Constantine, to me.

Ireneaus writings are very good, and like I said these are found out at New Advent which is a catholic website.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/


RomaLynnStar,

I wanted to clear up your above misconception. Working from the referenced site above, I would like to quote from three 2nd century leaders of the Church:

Irenaeus- Against Heresies: Book V, Chapter 2 (about 180 AD)

3. When, therefore, the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, and the Eucharist of the blood and the body of Christ is made, from which things the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they affirm that the flesh is incapable of receiving the gift of God, which is life eternal, which [flesh] is nourished from the body and blood of the Lord, and is a member of Him?—even as the blessed Paul declares in his Epistle to the Ephesians, that "we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones." (Ephesians 5:30) He does not speak these words of some spiritual and invisible man, for a spirit has not bones nor flesh; (Luke 24:39) but [he refers to] that dispensation [by which the Lord became] an actual man, consisting of flesh, and nerves, and bones,—that [flesh] which is nourished by the cup which is His blood, and receives increase from the bread which is His body. And just as a cutting from the vine planted in the ground fructifies in its season, or as a corn of wheat falling into the earth and becoming decomposed, rises with manifold increase by the Spirit of God, who contains all things, and then, through the wisdom of God, serves for the use of men, and having received the Word of God, becomes the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ; so also our bodies, being nourished by it, and deposited in the earth, and suffering decomposition there, shall rise at their appointed time, the Word of God granting them resurrection to the glory of God, even the Father, who freely gives to this mortal immortality, and to this corruptible incorruption, (1 Corinthians 15:53) because the strength of God is made perfect in weakness, (2 Corinthians 12:3) in order that we may never become puffed up…


Ignatius of Antioch- Letter to the Smyrnaeans: Chapter 6 (about 110 AD)

But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Justin Martyr- First Apology: Chapter 66 (about 150 AD)

And this food is called among us [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do in remembrance of Me, (Luke 22:19) this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.

So you see, no matter what our convictions, the leaders of the second century Church believed in the Real Presence.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:50 pm

http://www.therealpresence.org/

For anyone who wants to check out what I have pointed out about the worship of these wafers in the monstrances, this is the site which tells you about it. There is no misconception on my part at all, Mario. Yes I believe with all my heart that the spiritual connection to the blood and flesh of Jesus being sacrificed for us is of utmost importance in the partaking of the bread and the wine. It gives our spirit, soul, and flesh life, by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is not to be taken lightly at all.

Ireneaus did not state that he believed the wine and the bread were actually turned into the blood and flesh of Jesus literally. What he was pointing out here, is that there is a bodily resurrection coming, as the gnostics of his day were saying that the body itself was evil, and cannot be resurrected, that it could only be a resurrection of the spirit. Here he is telling the church that yes the fleshly body means much to God, that is why Jesus came in the flesh and we will be resurrected in a flesh body also, howbeit immortal and incorrupt. So taken in context, you can understand what he is saying. He was trying to point out that the partaking of the bread and wine proved that God cared about the flesh of man as well as the spirit of man. And you disregard the other part of his writings, and the testimony of the slave Blandina.

I have not read enough of the other people's writings yet to tell where they were coming from. This is the same thing that is done when you try to build this doctrine from John 6:43. Spirtual things are spiritually discerned.

I believe that the partaking of the communion does represent that we partake of the bread of life and the blood of Jesus sacrifice. And that is why when we partake we are to examine ourselves and make sure that we believe in the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that now his body has been broken, as represented in the whole body of believers, being part of the whole body of Jesus Christ.

However, nowhere is there the possibility that this means a special priestly prayer can cause this to turn into actual flesh and blood. The ideas is pagan to the core. And if you want to go into your chapels and bow down to a wafer in a monstrance, that your Pope claims, is Jesus and give it perpetual adoration, that is pagan also.

You can twist what someone says to fit whatever you want.

I can take communion, the breaking of the bread and the wine, with my husband and we can consecrate it ourselves. We do not need any priest to do this for us in order to make it really be vaild.

Jesus is our high priest and any believer can partake of the bread and the wine, without someone appointed to supposedily make it real blood and flesh.

While yes many protestants may take this lightly, they should not. Because it is a very serious thing with the Lord. This is a spiritual thing and must be interpreted spiritually not with the fleshly mind of man.

So when you see that to interpret this as a literal turning into blood and flesh, of course the Romans used this against them in perseuction, as what I pointed out from Ireneaus writings.

Also when interpreted this way, it leads to what the RCC does and says only their priests can consecrate, and then to what is being done now, and has been for a long time, with the supposedly consecrated wafer, turned into Jesus flesh, and put into those monstrances, placed in their little tabernacles, and they are saying this is actually Jesus.

And many miracles are supposedly happening around these things. As well as the fact that perpetual adoration, volunteers coming in 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, giving worship to this???? Can you honestly tell me that you think this is right???

The only way the bread and wine does anyone any good is partaking in the sharing within the body of believers.

Not in some silly real prsences worship adoration service going on in the RCC all around the world.

Many protestants went to their death rather than admit that the consecration of the priest actually turned this magically into blood and flesh. So will I if it comes to that.

1 Timothy 4
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

This doctrine of your RCC church is the same as Paul warned Timothy of in the above scriptures. I have many RCC friends, and I pray each day that they come to the full realization that they do not need the Pope and their Babylonian priest caste system to truly know our Lord and Savior.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:24 pm

I'm moving this discussion to the Other Religions forum.
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Re: A clarification.

Postby ruotsher on Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:55 pm

Mario wrote:
RomaLynnStar wrote:
...But if you go back to those who wrote before around the 300s or so, they were mostly on track.

Seems that the real mess up of the real teachings of christianity came after Constantine, to me.

Ireneaus writings are very good, and like I said these are found out at New Advent which is a catholic website.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/


RomaLynnStar,

I wanted to clear up your above misconception. Working from the referenced site above, I would like to quote from three 2nd century leaders of the Church:

Irenaeus- Against Heresies: Book V, Chapter 2 (about 180 AD)

3. When, therefore, the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, and the Eucharist of the blood and the body of Christ is made, from which things the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they affirm that the flesh is incapable of receiving the gift of God, which is life eternal, which [flesh] is nourished from the body and blood of the Lord, and is a member of Him?—even as the blessed Paul declares in his Epistle to the Ephesians, that "we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones." (Ephesians 5:30) He does not speak these words of some spiritual and invisible man, for a spirit has not bones nor flesh; (Luke 24:39) but [he refers to] that dispensation [by which the Lord became] an actual man, consisting of flesh, and nerves, and bones,—that [flesh] which is nourished by the cup which is His blood, and receives increase from the bread which is His body. And just as a cutting from the vine planted in the ground fructifies in its season, or as a corn of wheat falling into the earth and becoming decomposed, rises with manifold increase by the Spirit of God, who contains all things, and then, through the wisdom of God, serves for the use of men, and having received the Word of God, becomes the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ; so also our bodies, being nourished by it, and deposited in the earth, and suffering decomposition there, shall rise at their appointed time, the Word of God granting them resurrection to the glory of God, even the Father, who freely gives to this mortal immortality, and to this corruptible incorruption, (1 Corinthians 15:53) because the strength of God is made perfect in weakness, (2 Corinthians 12:3) in order that we may never become puffed up…


Ignatius of Antioch- Letter to the Smyrnaeans: Chapter 6 (about 110 AD)

But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that you should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

Justin Martyr- First Apology: Chapter 66 (about 150 AD)

And this food is called among us [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do in remembrance of Me, (Luke 22:19) this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.





Catholics are permitted to believe, say, and do whatever pleases them, as long as the Roman hierarchal status quo is not threatened.




With all due respect.......


a copy/paste from another board:

>>>>>>>>>


YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND ROMAN CATHOLICISM

Updated August 8, 2007 (first published June 9, 1996; updated March
9, 2002) David Cloud wayoflife.org;


From time to time, I receive letters from Roman Catholics who claim that I should retract my writings on the subject of the Roman Catholic Church because, they allege, I don't understand Roman Catholicism and I don't have my facts right. These people usually tell me that to understand Roman Catholicism properly I must read some Catholic apologist such as Karl Keating or Keith Fournier or Peter Kreeft or Scott Hahn. I have been answering this charge for decades, since Jesuit priests first made it to me in South Asia in the early 1980s.

The following is my reply to this false charge.

1. I BASE MY VIEWS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH DIRECTLY UPON ITS AUTHORITATIVE DECLARATIONS, SUCH AS THE COUNCIL OF TRENT, PAPAL BULLS, THE VATICAN II COUNCIL, AND THE NEW CATHOLIC CATECHISM.

These contain the voice of authoritative Roman Catholicism. Karl Keating, Keith Fournier, Peter Kreeft, and Scott Hahn are Roman Catholics and they have their own opinions and interpretations about Roman Catholicism, but they are not authoritative voices for the Roman Catholic Church. When I have wanted to know what genuine Roman Catholicism is, I have gone directly to the top.



In reality, almost any doctrine can be found in the midst of the Roman Catholic Church. There have always been a multitude of opinions within the Roman Catholic Church, but there also has always been an authoritative declaration of what the Roman Catholic Church officially believes.

Some Roman Catholics, for example, claim that they believe salvation is by grace alone through faith alone without works or sacraments, but that is not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches in its official proclamations. The Council of Trent, which has been affirmed by many modern councils, including Vatican II in the mid-1960s, stated:




Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will . . . let him be accursed" (Canon 9).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




And


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified . . . let him be accursed"
(Canon 12).
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Rome has not changed its views on salvation. The sacraments are still necessary. Consider what the New Catholic Catechism says about SALVATION:



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"The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. . . . The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are 'reborn of water and the Spirit.' God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism..." New Catholic Catechism, 1257
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"The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. . . . The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Saviour." New Catholic Catechism, 1129
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When Rome speaks of salvation by grace, it does not mean the free grace of the apostolic gospel. It has perverted the meaning of grace by intermingling sacraments and works. Paul condemned this in Romans 11:6. "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Some Roman Catholics claim that they believe THE BIBLE is the sufficient and authoritative Word of God, but the Vatican II Council said this:


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"Sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal . . . Thus it comes about that the Church does not draw her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Hence, both Scripture
and Tradition must be accepted and honoured with equal feelings of devotion and reverence" (Vatican Council II--The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, p. 682).
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Some Roman Catholics claim that they do not believe in PURGATORY, but the Vatican II Council made this statement:



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"The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt" (Vatican
Council II--The Conciliar and Post Conciliar Documents, p. 75).
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Some Roman Catholics claim that they don't believe MARY IS THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN, but consider what the Roman Catholic Church officially teaches in its New Catechism:


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"'Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of
original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son ...' The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection ... 'In giving birth you kept your virginity... You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death' (Byzantine Liturgy, Troparion, Feast of the Dormition, August 15th.)" (New Catholic Catechism, 966).
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Friends, this is not biblical Christianity, but it IS Roman
Catholicism. The Apostles taught us nothing about purgatory or prayers to Mary and the "saints" or Mary as the Queen of Heaven. The Apostles delivered to us the New Testament Scriptures by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and these Scriptures were capped in the final chapter with a solemn warning not to add to nor detract from them: "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things,
God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18,19).

It was not the Catholic Church that gave us the Bible; it was the Apostles through the promised Holy Spirit. They delivered to us the doctrines that God wants the churches to follow until the coming of Christ. They delivered the "faith once
delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3). Whatsoever is contrary to these completed Scriptures is error.


The Roman Catholic Church claims that it gave us the Bible, but it is a strange thing, then, that the Roman Catholic Church is not in the Bible!


The following important observations were made in 1851:


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"We cannot allow that every private Priest or member of the Church of Rome should give his own opinions merely as the standard of doctrine. We will have recourse to the oracular response of the Church, and insist that they be represented by themselves; not, however, by private individuals, but by their legal representatives. But, then, there is nothing which they dread so much as the testimony of their own Church. ... IT IS A PRINCIPAL AIM OF ALL [ROMAN CATHOLIC] CONTROVERTISTS TO EMPLOY EVERY MODE OF EVASION IN ORDER TO DISCONCERT THEIR OPPOSERS.

There is even a marked difference between the tone of these Romish Divines who speak dogmatically for the instruction of their own members and that of those who attempt to answer the objections of their antagonists. With the former, all is matter of downright certainty; with the latter, all is doubt, difficulty, subterfuge, and evasion. When the faithful are to be instructed, every Priest becomes the sure depositary of the infallible decisions of an infallible Church; but when Protestants are to be confuted, the declarations of their most illustrious men are of no authority.

Councils are discovered to have been but partly approved; Popes did not speak ex cathedra; Cardinals and Bishops are but private Doctors; and who cares for the opinion of an obscure Priest or Friar?

Thus nothing is so difficult as to know what the belief of Roman Catholics really is; and WHEN A PROTESTANT ADDUCES THEIR OWN WRITERS AS WITNESSES, HE IS FREQUENTLY TOLD THAT HE IS A MISREPRESENTER OF THEIR CHURCH" (Charles Elliott, Delineation of Roman Catholicism, London: John Mason, 1851, p. 23).
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A quick note.

Postby Mario on Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:04 pm



RomaLynnStar,

I have sent you 2 PMs.
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Postby RomaLynnStar on Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:18 pm

Hi Mario,

I did get one of them and sent you an answer.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:28 pm

:wavewelcome: pegmo!
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Postby Watching & waiting on Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:59 am

OK, here's an update. I bought the book recommended by Ruotsher "the Gospel according to Rome" and I read several chapters of it. I couldn't read anymore because it upset me and made me so mad and sad that millions of people are being misled by false teaching. Now please do not think I am catholic bashing, because I am not. I used to be one and my mom and brother still are... anyway it made me want to print up some handouts of what the church teaches and what the Bible actually says and stand out in front of the 2 catholic churches in my town and tell people to please find out the truth!!!

Anyway, I gave the book to my mom, devout Catholic and she started reading it. Already she is disputing some of it and is going to buy the book that refutes the Gospel according to Rome book!! Isn't that crazy. There is a book to refute that book. I asked her, how can some one write a book to refute what they say in this book, all he does is use scripture, the BIBLE to show the difference in catholic teaching and what the word says!!! HOW do you dispute the Bible if you are supposedly a christian. Anyway she says she disputes some of the things he is saying about catholic doctrine..... :verymad:
:twoheadbang:

Then two nights ago, my brother, born and raised catholic, now agnostic or whatever he is calling it this week, thinks the Bible is a bunch of made up stories..... he starts bashing me over this book that I have given our mom!!! He called me a blashpemer, judgmental nit-picker among other things... he said I was trying to say that our grandparents (catholics) are in hell and that "you" people sit around judging everybody and saying who's going to heaven or hell etc. man he went on a tirade, none of it true. I said "you people" who?? He said you know like at your church and your friends etc. I told him no, that we have a concern for our fellow friends and family members and a desire and hunger for the truth. I talked to him quite awhile and soothed him down some but it just never seems to get through to him, or my mom. One is religious but refuses to open her eyes to truth and the other is antogonistic towards it and refuses to hear or see truth....

What do you all think about that? My mom is still reading the book, but I really don't want to talk about it with either one again because I don't know how good of a witness I can be with them both arguing catholic doctrine at me. I told my brother that I will stand for the TRUTH no matter what, to my very last breath and oppose false hood. I don't think you can truly consider yourself a christian and see false teaching, lukewarmness, sinfullness and be quiet about it.... I know it all has to be done in love, so hard when it is your own family. Anyway, this is where I am at right now, my mom won't even believe an ex-catholic priest who wrote this book that is very loving and compassionate towards catholics and all he is using is scripture!!!! :cry:
Isaiah 40:31 But those that hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
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Postby ruotsher on Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:18 am

Ooooooh W&W.......I really feel your pain........... :cry:

It is so disheartening, frustrating and upsetting when this happens. I have had the very same conversations with family members also.
I have had many, many discussions / debates with Catholics...I've gone onto Catholic message boards to try to show them the truth.....my goodness. I think I have a very good idea of what the martyrs felt like while being interrogated and *asked to confess* by the inquisition.....wow, the viciousness by some is unbelievable.

Just keep remembering this is spiritual warfare you are dealing with.....alongside stubborness and pride (don't want to admit they are wrong).

and I'm not surprised at all there is a book to refute this book. anything that does not agree with RCC doctrine is held by Catholics to be false and heretical. And they should know, right? Since they (RCC) is the only one who can interpret the Bible, cause that's what the Bible says - that only the RCC has the authority.......blah blah blah.

Good luck W&W........hold tight to the truth and your faith.......and remember (and this is hard for me to do), that you cannot save anybody, only God can.......we can show the way, then it is up the Holy Spirit.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:42 pm

Watching & waiting, I, too, feel your pain. But listen....you did what you did and now we need to pray for the Holy Spirit to do what He does. Many of us came from catholicism by hearing or reading something similar and the Holy Spirit made certain words just JUMP OUT on the page!

I'll be praying for both your mother and your brother. My own father died with a rosary in his hands and my mother with a prayer to the Blessed Mother. I have 8 brothers and sisters - all of us raised catholic. 2 of them are agnostic and the rest are catholic.

:praying:
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Postby geauxsaints on Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:33 pm

Pray, Pray, Pray, that to me is the best thing that you can do. If they are searching for the truth then God will surely lead them to it. Getting an anti-catholic book that bashes catholics and what they believe is the wrong way to go about it in my opinion. It puts a person on the defensive from the jump.
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Postby Watching & waiting on Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:31 pm

Geauxsaints: I don't think that the book is really bashing catholics, it is written by an ex-catholic priest and he still has family members in the catholic faith. I read a portion of the book and was truly grieved over the outright lies that have no biblical basis to them that the church teaches and grieved over the millions of people that are led astray and blinded by their teachings. I didn't feel that the book was bashing at all, it was done in a very loving manner and has a prayer at the end of it that they can say to ask God to help open their eyes to all truth. I probably shouldn't have given to my mom, but oh well, it's too late now. I don't know why this subject bothers me so much when I have lots of other friends doing sinful things, living together out of wedlock, premarital sex, getting drunk, partying.... but for some reason it does. I guess because it is leading astray people that are trying to follow God and his teachings except it just isn't the true biblical teachings they are following... I don't know.... :dunno: It still may be a seed planted that will make her start to question some of her teachings and point her in the direction of the bible.
Isaiah 40:31 But those that hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles, they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.
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Postby pegmo on Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:56 am

I heard the most interesting testimony from a new Christian, former Catholic this weekend. His nephew had given him a book that he perceived as anti-Catholic while he was still a Catholic believer. He started to read it and then rejected it because of what he perceived as its anti-catholic tone.

However he kept pursuing God. He was asking God to open His eyes to the meaning of His Word, and He felt a overwhelming push to read Proverbs 1: 22-33 and felt God tell him that these verses were specifically about him.

He was overwhelmed with the harshness of the tone of the message. He understood the rebuke to be his rejection of the book he was given. He went on retreat the next weekend and spent it in prayer. The Saturday night he got back he was awakened by God at 4am and told to get into a Christian church. He got up opened the phone book, found one, and went the next morning. There he heard the gospel that saved him. He is now in the Christian church, as a born again believer. He is still trying to deal with the change, and his family thinks he has flipped, but it was so moving to hear this and see the impact that God has had on this man who thought he was in the truth previously.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:04 pm

:praise:

Thanks so much for sharing that, pegmo! I've found that the transformation in a catholic is quite extraordinary due a sense of an enormous weight being lifted from their shoulders. You can see a dramatic change as their "head knowledge" of Jesus gets to the spiritual and personal.
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Postby ruotsher on Tue Jan 01, 2008 1:48 pm

:banana: :a2: Praise the Lord!!! Thanks for sharing!
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