"He as God sitteth in the temple of God"

[ampersand]

Mark,

I agree 100%.

in Christ,
&

[Princess of Heaven]

Matthew 16:22-23

22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Luke 16:13

13No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Romans 6:16

16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[Shelby]

He as God sitteth in the Temple of God.....


He is sitting in the Church.......deceiving if possible the very elect......

Mrs. B

And Jesus is on the outside knocking to get in...
Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.


Rev 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


The great multitude that no one could count in white robes...
Revelation 7:14 These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the temple of God.....


I Corin. 6:15......Know ye not that your Bodies are the members of Christ?

shall I then take the members of Christ....and make them the members of an Harlot?
God for bid......

16.....What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body?
for two, saith he shall be one flesh....
BUT HE THAT IS JOINTED UNTO THE LORD......IS ONE SPIRIT.....

One Spirit....we are made one in Christ.


Rev. 17:5....And upon her forehead was a name written...
Mystery Babylon the Great,
The Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth....

harlots....those that are not true to Jesus....false christs

Rev. 18:4....And I heard Another Voice from Heaven, saying.....
COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, THAT YE BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS,
And that ye receive not of her plagues...
5....For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath Remembered her Iniquities...
8....Therefore shall her plagues come in one day.....death, and mourning, and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire...for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her...

Jesus is calling us out from spiritual fornication......
We are One Spirit.....
Eph. 2:18....For through him (Jesus) we both have access by ONE SPIRIT UNTO THE FATHER....

22....IN WHOM YE ALSO ARE BUILDED TOGETHER FOR AN HABITATION OF GOD THROUGH THE SPIRIT....

21....In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth Unto An HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD....


The Born Again Believers are One in Christ.....by One Spirit unto the Father....In whom ye also are builded together for an Habitation of God....through the Spirit...

We are One...
God is calling out His True Worshipers...come out and be ye saperate......and touch not the unclean thing...


It is satan's plan to come into the church by Deception.......false teachers, false pastors, false prophets, false teaching,
false doctrine......It is satans plan to take over the church through the lies.....through the flesh...the pride of life.
deceiving if possible the very elect......
Jesus came preaching....The Kingdom of God is at Hand...
It is the plan of satan to take over the church...the body of christ....the Kingdom of God....
by deception..
The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom..
Jesus said....The Kingdom of God comes not with Observation....
you can not see the the Kingdom.....
Jesus said...You Must Be Born Again.....born of the Holy Spirit

John 3:3....Except a Man be Born again...He cannot See The Kingdom of God...
5...Jesus answered.....Verily, Verily,
I Say unto thee......Except a Man be Born of Water and of the Spirit,
He Cannot Enter into the Kingdom of God...
6...That Which is Born of the FLESH IS FLESH...
and that which is born of the SPIRIT IS SPIRIT...

7....MARVEL NOT that I say unto thee...YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN......

Church membership does not save you.......You Must Be Born Again.....by the Spirit....
Go to Jerusalem and wait for the Promise of the Father...
This is That....spoken by Joel the Prophet:
Acts 2:17....And it shall come to pass in the Last Days, saith God,
I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18...And on My Servants and On My Handmaidens I will Pour Out in those days OF MY SPIRIT:
AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY:.......

One Spirit...
39....For the Promise is unto you....and to your children, and to all that are afar off ...even as Many as the Lord Our God shall Call.....

Luke 13:23.....Jesus said
24....Strive to Enter in at the Strait Gate:
for Many, I say unto you, Will Seek to Enter In, and shall Not be Able..
25....When Once the Master of the House is Risen up, and hath Shut to the Door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying LORD, LORD OPEN UNTO US THE DOOR...
AND HE SHALL ANSWER AND SAY UNTO YOU...I know you not whence ye are:

26...Then shall ye began to say...
We have Eaten and Drunk in thy Presence, and thou hast taught in our streets...
27...But he shall say...I Tell You...I know you Not Whence ye are;
Depart from me...all ye workers of iniquity...
28....There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, When ye Shall See Abraham,
and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the Prophets, IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD....AND YOU YOURSELVES THRUST OUT...

29....And they shall come from the East, and from the West, and from the North, and from the South, and shall sit down in THE KINGDOM OF GOD...
30....And Behold, there are last which shall be first....and there are first which shall be Last.....

It is satan's plan to deceive the church....by false christ and teachings......
Seek Truth.....Seek the Spirit of Truth.....We are the Temple of the Living God.....
but it is satans plan to sit in the Temple deceiving if possible the very elect...

But we have The Holy Spirit that leads and Guides us into all Truth......
Not by Might, nor by power, But By My Spirit saith the Lord....


Mrs. B

[watching]

when you speak of a "conceivable" sitting, you are referring to "how FAR the man of sin would go" or "what he is liable to do." In that case, the verb should be one of "possibility", and take on a subjunctive mood.

I was just recently reviewing this thread, because I was trying to remember what lambslave had said about hoste + infinitive, when I noticed the above comment.

And to be honest, at the time when this comment was made, I did not know what was meant by the subjunctive mood.

However, if you are still out there, ampersand, I would like to respond to the above comment.

Or if there is anyone else out there who would like to explore the application of hoste + infinitive, please let me know.

[watching]

Well, apparently, ampersand does not follow FP any longer.

But doesn't anyone else want to hear my reply to ampersand's statement, quoted above.

[lambslave]

I would like to hear what you have to say about hoste + the infinitive. hoste=so as; to seat, the infinitive. lambslave

[watching]

Hi Lambslave,

Good to hear from you. Thanks for your reply.

It’s too bad ampersand apparently does not visit FP any longer. I learned a lot through our discussions.

Well, anyway, I was recently looking over this thread, because I was trying to remember what you had said regarding hoste + infinitive, when I noticed the following comment that ampersand had made.

when you speak of a "conceivable" sitting, you are referring to "how FAR the man of sin would go" or "what he is liable to do." In that case, the verb should be one of "possibility", and take on a subjunctive mood.

At the time, I didn’t know what was meant by the subjunctive mood, so I merely blew his comment off, at the time when he had made it. And it wasn’t until I was recently reviewing this thread, that I realized what he meant.

Needless, to say, his comment gave me pause about my conclusion that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 would be referring to a conceivable (for lack of a better term) seating, meaning that the scripture does not specifically tell us whether this event will actually take place, or not.

So, I decided to look at other examples of hoste + infinitive to see if, perhaps, ampersand might have been correct to say that, for my conclusion above to be correct, then this phrase would have had to have been expressed in the subjunctive mood, rather that the infinitive mood.

Well, it turns out, that I had to look no further than the very first example (although I did look for a few others, as well) to prove my point. And that example would be Matthew 8:24.

Matthew 8:24
King James Version (KJV)
24And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

Here is how this verse reads in the Greek.

8:24 καὶ ἰδού, σεισμὸς μέγας ἐγένετο ἐν τῇ θαλάσσῃ ὥστε τὸ πλοῖον καλύπτεσθαι ὑπὸ τῶν κυμάτων αὐτὸς δὲ ἐκάθευδεν

And here is how this verse literally translates.

(But first, you have to keep in mind that, first of all, the word translated as “tempest” is the word σεισμὸς (seismos), which means earthquake, and the word translated as “covered” is the word καλύπτεσθαι, which is a form of the word καλύπτω (kalypto), which means to hide, or veil. Btw, this is the opposite of apocalypse (ἀποκάλυψις), which means the unveiling.)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4578&t=KJV
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2572&t=KJV

So, basically, here is how this verse translates from the Greek.

8:24 καὶ (and) ἰδού (behold), σεισμὸς (earthquake) μέγας (great) ἐγένετο (happened) ἐν (in) τῇ (the) θαλάσσῃ (sea) ὥστε (so as) τὸ (the) πλοῖον (ship) καλύπτεσθαι (to be veiled) ὑπὸ (under) τῶν (the) κυμάτων (waves) αὐτὸς (he) δὲ (but) ἐκάθευδεν (falling asleep)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=8&v=24&t=KJV#conc/24

Now here is how this would read in just the Greek.

And behold a great earthquake happened in the sea so as [for] the ship to be concealed under the waves but he was dosing off.

So, as you can see, this was not talking about a few waves splashing aboard the ship.

This was talking about a TSUNAMI.

Obviously, the ship did not get "covered" (completely hidden or veiled) by the waves, or else the disciples would not have been standing there talking to Jesus, when this happened.

So, I think this example more than proves that hoste + infinitive can, at times, be used as a mode of possibility.

But, this was just in reply to ampersand’s comment, above. I wish he was still here to read this.

Anyway, let me know what you think, lambslave.

[lambslave]

watching, allow me to ask some questions, you might call them sort of a falsifiability challenge.
If Paul wished to say, "so as to seat himself in the temple of God" a phrase that communicates the net effect of actions without actually saying that he placed his physical person in the temple of God, what would he have written instead of what is written. I can't think of a better way to express such a meaning than we see here. I would be inclined to go with the best or easiest solution. lambslave
Insomuch that, or as

hoste a consecutive particle, is used with the meaning "insomuch that," or "so that," or "that," to express the effect or result of anything, e.g., Matt_8:24; Matt_13:54; Matt_15:31; Matt_27:14; Acts_1:19 (AV, "insomuch as"); Acts_5:15; Acts_19:12 (AV, "so that"); 2_Cor_1:8; Gal_2:13. See WHEREFORE.

The infinitive is an indeclinable verbal noun. As such it participates in some of the features of the verb and some of the noun. Like a verb, the infinitive has tense and voice, but not person or mood. Its number is always singular. Like the oblique moods (i.e., nonindicative moods), the infinitive is normally negatived by me or ou. Like a noun, the infinitive can have many of the case functions that an ordinary noun can have. Although technically infinitives do not have gender, frequently the neuter singular article is attached to them. [See Wallace for a discussion of the various structures used with the different semantic categories of the infinitive.]

[watching]

Hi lambslave,

I was about to respond to your post, when I got interrupted with a very lengthy phone call. That's why it has taken me so long to reply.

Anyway, I'm not sure by your post if you are agreeing with me, or not.

In any case, to answer your question:

If Paul wished to say, "so as to seat himself in the temple of God" a phrase that communicates the net effect of actions without actually saying that he placed his physical person in the temple of God, what would he have written instead of what is written.

First of all, as you know, I am not a Greek scholar, by any means, obviously, but based on my knowledge of Greek, if I wanted to communicate that the man of sin magnified himself so much that it was as if he was effectively seating himself in the temple of God, the way I, personally, would say it, in the Greek, is a follows:

2:4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα λεγόμενον θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα ὥστε [ὡς] αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ ὡς Θεὸν καθίσαι ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν θεός

So, basically, in the English this would read as follows.

the one who opposes and who is self-exalted above all that is said to be of God or that is worshiped insomuch-as [as] [for] him in the temple of God as God to sit while showing (pointing to) himself that he is God

So, as you can see, if it were me, I would add in an extra ὡς to convey that.

What do you think?

By the way, I just want to point out that I had to make a few corrections to my post above this one. (Just so you know.)

[lambslave]

watching,
ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ [d]θεοῦ καθίσαι ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν θεός. 5
permit me to observe that:
so as he into the temple of the God to seat displaying himself that God he is.
then according to rules we arrange the words thus--
so as (hoste) to seat (kathisai) himself (auton) into the temple of God (eis ton naon tau Theau) displaying himself that he is God.
Notice that both auton and eauton should read in english "himself." both accusative. Lambslave.

[watching]

Hi lambslave,

I don't mean to make a big deal about whether it should be he/him or himself.

I realize that in some cases auton has be translated as himself, but shouldn't it more correctly be translated as he/him when doing a word for word translation? And shouldn't eauton be translated, as himself?

If not, could you show me an example from scripture where auton out of necessity must translate as himself? Because from the few examples that I have looked at, if the sentence is translated word for word then auton would more correctly translate as him, rather than himself. But then again, I have only looked at a few examples. Nevertheless, I do not see any reason why these words would be interchangeable in the Greek, any more than I see any reason for why they would be interchangeable in the English. It seems to me that the implied interchangeableness of these words, based on the Strong's definition, comes only because of the way they have been translated into the English, not because they are inherently interchangeable in the Greek, but that is just my suspicion. I could, of course, be wrong.

In any case, you did not respond to my answer to your question. Wouldn't you agree that for 2 Thessalonians 2:4 to be referring to an "effective" seating that it would require another ὡς (as)?

[watching]

Btw, lambslave, I would just like to point out that we are not that far apart in our understanding of this verse, in that we both agree that this verse does not specifically say that the man of sin WILL sit in the temple of God.

However, you believe that this is referring to an "effective" seating. Whereas I believe this is referring to the extent to which the man of sin will exalt himself. But, whether he will actually sit, or attempt to sit, in the temple of God is not clear.

What is clear, however, is that he will magnify and exalt himself to, at least the verge of, this point.

One more thing that I would like to point out is that I agree with what was stated earlier in this thread about how it's hard to see how God could ever consider a newly built Jewish temple that does not believe in Christ, as "the temple of God" or an apostate church as the "temple of God." Therefore, I am more inclined to believe that this is most likely referring to one of either two things.

1) it could simply be referring to the extent to which the man of sin will exalt himself, as I said before.

Or.

2) it might possibly be referring to something that might take place in the heavenly realm, because we know from scripture that there will be some type of rebellion (which is what the word apostasia means, btw) in heaven. Of course, this would, most likely, occur in conjunction with, or in close relation with, events transpiring on earth.

Daniel 8:9-12

King James Version (KJV)

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. (emphasis mine)

Revelation 12

King James Version (KJV)

Revelation 12

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devi l is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. emphasis mine

[lambslave]

watching, some very good observations.lambslave

[watching]

Thanks, lambslave.

I just wanted to share some of my thoughts, and especially what I discovered about Matthew 8:24. I thought that was really neat. I love finding things like that.

[Yogi]

Well I was just reviewing this thread too. Looks like a good time to re-state my position.
The anti-Christ will NOT enter a temple! The Jews understand this and look for the Messiah to build it when He comes.
This they do because of Zech. 6:12.

So what about what Paul said?

It is all in the voice inflection. When one "hears" it , it makes perfect sense. Adding commas in the right place helps....

...so that he, as God sits in the temple of God, showeth himself that he is God.

Put another way- he will make a show of himself like God sits in the temple of God.

Further, one could expect that if you connect this with the much discussed "wing of the temple" or "border" of the "temple (mount)" you would have some sort of image projected onto the Wailing Wall!!!!!!!!!!!

Too far out? Want to keep hoping for a temple for the anti-Christ? Disregard Zech.6:12? Believe Jews will let ANYONE BUT a high priest into the Holy of Holies?

A simple re-reading of Paul's words, sounding like a sighing elder Jew, disgusted with the very thought of this mocker perpetrating such a deviant act, while his words were faithfully written down by a scribe for him is all I need to settle this whole mess.

[watching]

Hi Yogi,

You are on the right track. However, if you carefully review this thread you will see that placing the commas as you have suggested is just not supported in the Greek.

In fact, this is what ampersand had suggested earlier in this thread, but then realized for himself that this was not supported in the Greek.

Because, you see, as lambslave has explained earlier in this thread, hoste (so as) + the infinitive (to sit) go together, and compliment each other.

You are, however, on the right track in your thinking.

In any case, I was debating about making my next post, which was going to be an attempt to clarify, a little more about the word "kathisai."

But since I see that there is still some interest in this thread, I will go ahead and post it, in order to be completely thorough about the word "kathisai."

[watching]

Hi lambslave,

In case you might be interested, I would just like to share a few observations that I have made, over the course of this thread, and have come to understand, about the word καθίσαι (kathisai), in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, which is the word that was translated as “sitteth” in the KJV.

I would just like to say that technically you are correct in saying that this word means “to seat himself.”

However, to translate “kathisai” as “to seat himself” would be a technicality. (I will explain that later.) Nevertheless, the word “himself,” however, is actually implied within the word καθίσαι (kathisai), and is separate from the word αὐτὸν (him).

So, if one wanted to translate 2 Thessalonians 2:4 such that καθίσαι (kathisai) is translated as “to seat himself,” rather than as “to sit,” then the sentence would have to read as follows:

But first here is the Greek text, just for the sake of reference.

2:4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα λεγόμενον θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ ὡς Θεὸν καθίσαι ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν θεός

Now here is how one would translate the sentence, with καθίσαι (kathisai) translated as “to seat himself.”

The one who opposes and is self-exalted above everything said to be of God or that is worshipped so as [for] him in the temple of God to seat himself while showing/pointing to himself that he is God.

Now, let me try to explain why it would, however, be a technicality to translate καθίσαι (kathisai) as “to seat himself,” rather than just simply as “to sit.”

As you may have already noticed, there are actually two root forms for the word “sit.”

One is καθίζω (kathizo) G2523, which is the root form, from which the word καθίσαι (kathisai), in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 stems from.

And the other is κάθημαι (kathemai) G2521.

Here are the different inflections for each of these words according to the Wiki Lexicon of the Greek New Testament and Concordance website:

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?search=KAQI%2FSAI
http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?search=KA%2FQHMAI

Now, from what I have noticed, the difference between these two words is that καθίζω (kathizo) G2523, is focused more on the action of sitting (sitting, in this case, referring to the action of going into a sitting position, as in to seat oneself).

And the word κάθημαι (kathemai) G2521 is focused more on the action of sitting (sitting in this case referring to the action of being in a sitting position, as in being seated).

However, these terms are not, necessarily, intended to be used exclusively of each other.

What I mean by that, is that, obviously, when one is seated, or seats himself (as in the case of G2523), he generally does not immediately get right back up again. He generally will stay seated, or will at least intend to stay seated, for a while.

By the same token, when one is in a seated position (as in the case of G2521), he obviously must have, at some point, seated himself in order to be in a seated position.

So, as you can see, the difference between these two root forms for the word “sit” can be somewhat blurred.

In fact, there really is not very much difference between these two root words, at all, from what I am seeing, except for the fact that G2523 seems to be focused more on the INITIAL action of “being seated” as in “being made to sit” or “making yourself or someone else to sit” which may, or may not, include the action of “sitting” (as in remaining in a seated position for an indefinite period of time), as well as, the INITIAL action of the “sitting.”

Whereas G252, however, seems to be more focused on the “sitting” action (sitting in the case referring to being in a seated position).

However, for someone to have “sat,” or to be in a “sitting” position, they must have, at some point, been seated, or have seated themselves. So, the fact that they would have been seated, or would have seated themselves, is implied in the fact that they “sat,” or are in a “sitting” position.

So, there really is no need for one to make a big deal about the stage of the sitting action that is being referred to, based on the root word that was used, by stating whether they seated themselves, or not, because it really is, more or less, just a matter of the conjugation, of the verb, which, apparently, just so happens to have been broken down into, *at least, two root words for the word sit, from what I am seeing. *(At least these are the only two root forms for the word “sit” that I am aware of, there may be more, but if so, I am not aware of any more, at this point.)

In any case, that at least seems to be how this was done in the Koine Greek, anyway, from what I am understanding.

Another thing that I would also like to point out, however, (and this is just based on my understanding of the language, from having spoken it), is that the word καθίζω “kathizo” (which literally means “I seat,” btw), as well as any other inflection/conjugation of the root word καθίζω (kathizo) having the letter “z” in it, rather than the letter “s,” must have an indirect object for which the word kathizo is referring to (just as would be the case in English, as well, btw).

For example one does not normally say “I seat,” or “I seated” in the English, without there being an indirect object. One would have to say “I seated someone else,” or “I seated myself,” for example.

So in the two examples above, “someone else” or “myself” would be the indirect object.

Well, the same is true in the Greek, whenever the word καθίζω (kathizo), or one of it’s inflections having the letter “z” in it, is used.

Because whenever there is a letter “z” in the word, as there is in the root form kathizo, then the word takes on the literal meaning of the verb “seat,” in the same sense as the verb “seat” is used in the English.

So, whenever there is a letter “z’ in one of the inflections for the word kathizo, just as there is a “z” in the word kathizo, itself, then, there MUST be an indirect object; just as there must be an indirect object for “I seat” in English, as well.

However, if the letter “z” is not in the various inflections of the root word kathizo, and there is a letter “s” in the spelling instead, then there may, or may not, be an indirect object. But there doesn’t HAVE to be an indirect object, unless the the letter “z” is in the word.

Because when the letter “z” is in the spelling of one of the conjugations of “kathizo” (which would include the word kathizo, itself), then the word would then take on the literal meaning of the verb, “to seat,” in the same sense as “to seat” is used in English. Therefore, it would then require an indirect object.

For example, here is an example of a sentence using an inflection of the word καθίζω (kathizo), which does NOT happen to have the letter “z” in it:

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

23:2 λέγων, Ἐπὶ τῆς Μωσέως καθέδρας ἐκάθισαν (ekathisan) οἱ γραμματεῖς καὶ οἱ Φαρισαῖοι

So, as you can see, from this example there is no indirect object in the above sentence.

Now, here is an example of a sentence using an inflection of the word καθίζω (kathizo), having the letter “z” in it:

1Cr 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

6:4 βιωτικὰ μὲν οὖν κριτήρια ἐὰν ἔχητε τοὺς ἐξουθενημένους ἐν τῇ ἐκκλησίᾳ τούτους καθίζετε (kathizete)

So, as you can see, in the above sentence, there is an object (ye) and an indirect object (those who are least esteemed in the church). So, in this case, someone is “seating” someone else. So, there is an object and an indirect object.

Anyway, getting back to 2 Thessalonians 2:4, as I said before, you are technically correct in stating that καθίσαι (kathisai), means “to seat himself” because of the fact that the meaning, “to seat himself,” is implied within the meaning of the word καθίσαι (kathisai).

However, it is not necessary to state it this way, because, as I said before, anytime someone sits, they seat themselves. So, it would be sufficient in this case to just say “sit” rather than “seat himself.” And there would be no need in this case for an indirect object.

However, if Paul wanted to make an issue of the fact that the man of sin would exalt himself so far as to seat himself (as opposed to someone else seating him), and wanted to emphasize the fact that he was seating himself, then there would probably have been an indirect object, “ἑαυτὸν” (himself), in the original sentence in the Greek, in addition to the direct object “αὐτὸν” (him), which is already in the sentence.

But since 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has only a direct object, and not an indirect object, then I don’t think it’s really necessary to translate “kathisai” as “so as to seat himself,” rather than "so as to sit," unless someone is just trying to make the distinction that the root word “kathizo” was used, in this case for “sit,” and not the root word “kathemai.”

So, as I said, technically, you are correct, except for the fact that the word “himself” would only be implied within the word καθίσαι (kathisai). However, the word “himself” would not replace the word αὐτὸν (him), but rather, would be added in.

The word αὐτὸν (him), however, would remain in the text because that would be the direct object. And “himself” would then be the indirect object. But as I said before, it is not necessary to translate the sentence this way because “to seat himself” is already implied within the meaning of the word καθίσαι (kathisai).

Anyway, I hope this makes sense.

Sorry for rambling, but I just wanted to clarify a little more about, what I have come to understand, about the word καθίσαι (kathisai).

This is at least my understanding, anyway, based on what I have observed during the course of this thread. I could, of course, be wrong.

Please let me know if this makes sense, or if there is anything wrong with my assessment.

[david]

The word used for temple is a generic form and is not the same word Jesus or the disciple's used referring to the Temple on the Temple Mount. So this appears to be either; some other temple, thing or body?

I don't have time to look it up and spell it out, maybe someone else might want to give it a try.


david

[watching]

The word used for temple is a generic form and is not the same word Jesus or the disciple's used referring to the Temple on the Temple Mount. So this appears to be either; some other temple, thing or body?

I don't have time to look it up and spell it out, maybe someone else might want to give it a try.


david

Hi david,

The word used for temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is the Greek word ναός (naos).

You can see all the references for when this word was used in the New Testament in the concordance linked below:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3485&t=KJV

[Yogi]

Sorry for the delay. I was under the impression that the Greek manuscripts had virtually NO punctuation. This is what makes translating them some what of a science AND an art.

Also, I have read that the word for temple (perhaps OT?) can refer even to the very temple mount. Hence, my reference to the wailing wall...wing of the temple.

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the temple of God.....

Stephen said......and he was stoned for it.....

Acts 7:51....Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in Heart and Ears, Ye do always Resist the Holy Ghost:
as your fathers did...so do ye

52....Which of the Prophets have not your fathers persecuted?
and they have slain them which BEFORE.....The coming of the Just One:
of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murders:

53...Whave received the Law by the Disposition of Angels, and have Not kept it....


47....But Solomon built Him an House...
48...HOWBEIT.....The Most High Dwelleth Not in Temples......made with hands:
as saith the prophet...
49...Heaven is My Throne, and earth is My Footstool:
What House will ye build me? saith the Lord:
or what is the Place of My Rest?
50....Hath Not My Hand Made all these things?

Paul writes...
I Corin. 3:16.....KNOW YE NOT THAT YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD, AND THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLETH IN YOU?
17...If any man defile the Temple of God, him shall God destroy; For the Temple of God is Holy....Which Temple ye are....


We are the Temple...The Holy Spirit lives in us....Not made with hands....but by the Holy Spirit


Mrs. B

[watching]

Sorry for the delay. I was under the impression that the Greek manuscripts had virtually NO punctuation. This is what makes translating them some what of a science AND an art.

Also, I have read that the word for temple (perhaps OT?) can refer even to the very temple mount. Hence, my reference to the wailing wall...wing of the temple.

Hi Yogi,

It is my understanding that there are no commas in the original manuscripts, as well. At least, that is what I have heard, anyway.

But this really does not have anything to do with commas. This has to do with the way the sentence correction: verse was worded.

Let me try to explain.

Let’s start by looking at the King James Version of 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
King James Version (KJV)
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now what you need to understand when looking at this verse is that the word translated as “so that” is the word “hoste.”

And as I have tried to explain earlier in this thread, the word “hoste” does not just mean “so that.”

It actually means SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THAT………………

Or IN SOMUCH AS………………….

In other words, this word is expressing HOW MUCH.

In this case, the “how much” is describing the “opposing” and the “exalting of himself.”

So, “hoste” has to go with, or at least compliment, a verb action in the verse.

And the only actual verb in the verse is the word “kathisai” (to sit).

By placing the commas where you have suggested, the emphasis of the opposing and exalting would be on “shewing.”

Shewing, however, is not exactly a verb. It is a present active participle, which usually corresponds to words in English that have –ing or –ed added to them.

In fact, the word ἀποδεικνύντα (shewing) actually more correctly translates as “while showing.”

So, as you can see, this cannot be the MAIN VERB, that the “opposing” and the “self-exalting” is referring to.

Otherwise, it would be an incomplete sentence correction: segment of a sentence. Or it would not make any sense.

So, the only VERB in this verse that the “opposing “and the “self-exalting” could possibly be referring to, is the word “kathisai” which is the word that was translated in the KJV as “sitteth.”

And the word “kathisai” in the Greek is in the infinitive mood, which means it does not make any reference in terms of past, present, or future.

The infinitive mood is expressed in the English as “to sit.”

For example, in English, if I were to say, “I want to sit.”

..........Then, “to sit” would be in the infinitive mood, meaning it has no bearing in terms of past, present, or future.

So, the word “kathisai” is in the infinitive mood, so it literally translates as “to sit.”

Now, as I said before, the word “hoste” which was translated as “so that” in the KJV actually means SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THAT, OR SOOOOOOOOOOOOO AS and compliments or goes together with the verb “kathisai” (TO SIT).

Okay, now that we have all that settled, let me, once again, do a word for word translation, so you can see how this verse translates in the English.

First here is the Greek.

2:4 ὁ ἀντικείμενος καὶ ὑπεραιρόμενος ἐπὶ πάντα λεγόμενον θεὸν ἢ σέβασμα ὥστε αὐτὸν εἰς τὸν ναὸν τοῦ θεοῦ ὡς Θεὸν καθίσαι ἀποδεικνύντα ἑαυτὸν ὅτι ἔστιν θεός

Now here is a word for word transaltion:

ὁ (the) ἀντικείμενος (one who opposes) καὶ (and) ὑπεραιρόμενος (one who is self-exalted) ἐπὶ (over) πάντα (everything) λεγόμενον (called/said to be) θεὸν (God/of God) ἢ (or) σέβασμα (that is to be worshipped) ὥστε (sooooooooooo as) αὐτὸν (him) εἰς (in) τὸν (the) ναὸν (temple) τοῦ (of) θεοῦ (God) ὡς (as) Θεὸν (God) καθίσαι (to sit) ἀποδεικνύντα (while showing) ἑαυτὸν (himself) ὅτι (that) ἔστιν (he is) θεός (God)

Now here is just the English:

The one who opposes and is self-exalted above everything said to be of God or that is worshipped SO AS [for] him in the temple of God as God TO SIT while showing himself that he is God.
*please note correction

(I have capitalized “so as” “to sit” so that you can see how these words go together.)

So, basically, what I have done here is an actual WORD FOR WORD translation.

So I guess you could say, in this case, anyway, that the translation is more of a SCIENCE than an art.

At least that is what my intent, or attempt has been, anyway.

I will try to answer the second part of your question, probably, tomorrow, since I have run out of time today.

[watching]

Hi Yogi,

As a correction to my above post, I would just like to point out, that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is actually not a complete sentence, but rather a continuation of verse 3.

So I will correct all the references that I have made to 2 Thessalonians 2:4, in my post above, which refer to verse 4 as a sentence, rather than as a verse.

Sorry for my mistake, and for any confusion it may have caused.

[Yogi]

Hi Watching,

I think I understand your points well enough. That said, unless I am mistaken, the commas, if used, would still make the same case. So also would the usage of the word "as" in the same sentence. Read "as" God sitteth ..."even as" God sitteth" which is another perfectly acceptable meaning.

It really has the effect of telling the MANNER in which one does something rather than WHERE he is doing it. In this case the son of perdition shows himself "even as God sits in the temple of God". (in like manner) This is the ACT that reveals him. So it is his unveiling that is the subject, not his location.

[watching]

Hi Yogi,

Hi Watching,

I think I understand your points well enough. That said, unless I am mistaken, the commas, if used, would still make the same case. So also would the usage of the word "as" in the same sentence. Read "as" God sitteth ..."even as" God sitteth" which is another perfectly acceptable meaning.

It really has the effect of telling the MANNER in which one does something rather than WHERE he is doing it. In this case the son of perdition shows himself "even as God sits in the temple of God". (in like manner) This is the ACT that reveals him. So it is his unveiling that is the subject, not his location.

Did you not read my post????

[watching]

Yogi,

You may want to read my post again more carefully, because apparently you are not understanding what I have just stated.

If there is something about my post that doesn't make sense, please let me know and I will try to clarify it some more, as best I can.

In any case, I would like to elaborate on the fact that verse 4 is actually a continuation of verse 3, which is what I was planning to do, when I realized my mistake; but I will do that in a separate post.

[watching]

Yogi,

As I have said, the translation which I have made above is a WORD-FOR-WORD translation.

In order to place the commas where you have suggested, verse 4 would then read as follows:

The one who opposes and is self-exalted above everything said to be of God or that is worshipped, SO AS [for] him in the temple of God, as God TO SIT, while showing himself that he is God.

Obviously, placing the commas in this manner would not make any sense.

Btw, I'm sorry if I am sounding argumentative. I am really not trying to be. I am just trying to be precise.

In any case, now do you understand????

[Yogi]

OK but I thought "shewing" actually is a verb: Tense: Present
Voice: Active
Mood: Participle
* The Present Active Participle verb form occurs 2,549 times in the New Testament.

I have had enough experience with people speaking foreign languages to know that when translating word for word you often get "broken" English. So it isn't really translated, so to speak. People don't actually talk that way. Doing our best to get obsolete Greek into obsolete English and then to the way we speak is hard enough.

I am no expert, but I appreciate staying as close to the text as possible. There are however many cases where word by word versions will make it harder to read. You do a great job staying true to the text.

I think your version also takes away the idea that the emphasis is on the location. Rather is shows the underscoring on the elf exaltation.

However, because there are not commas in the text does not mean they shouldn't be used. The KJV translators certainly did. The KJV is as it states, a version. Could they have provided commas in other places (or even other italicized words) to make it easier for us? Sure, but what they wrote worked for them and now there is no way of telling whether or not they understood it this way.

[watching]

Hi Yogi,

The Greek word "ἀποδεικνύντα" literally means "while showing." And is therefore, a supporting verb, not the main verb.

We cannot change the tense of a word to make it mean something it doesn't, just because we think the sentence does not sound eloquent to us.

Writing eloquent sentences has it's place. And it may even be beneficial for a new or young believer, because it makes the bible easier to read. And that is obviously why some liberties have been taken.

But what I am trying to explore is what was actually written in the original text, regardless of whether, or not, it sounds beautifully written to us when translated into English, or not.

I think your version also takes away the idea that the emphasis is on the location. Rather is shows the underscoring on the elf exaltation.

I am not necessarily trying to do that. At least not intentionally.

I am, however, trying to understand the text, in order to determine whether, or not, a rebuilt Jewish temple is necessary, or even valid, for the fulfillment of this prophecy, or not.

And I really do not have the answer to that yet. I am really just trying to figure it out.

In any case, I am currently working on a follow-up post to my previous post. So, I will probably be posting that soon.

[watching]

Hi Yogi,

The next point that I wanted to make is that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is actually not a complete sentence. But, rather, it is actually a continuation of verse 3.

However, when you look at verses 3 and 4 together, strangely enough, it still is not a complete sentence; which is why the words “that day shall not come” were added into the text by the translators in order to make it a complete sentence.

Anyway, here are verses 1 through 4 in the KJV.

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now here is how verses 3 and 4 were written in the Greek.

3μη τις υμας εξαπατηση κατα μηδενα τροπον οτι εαν μη ελθη η αποστασια πρωτον και αποκαλυφθη ο ανθρωπος της αμαρτιας ο υιος της απωλειας
4ο αντικειμενος και υπεραιρομενος επι παντα λεγομενον θεον η σεβασμα ωστε αυτον εις τον ναον του θεου ως θεον καθισαι αποδεικνυντα εαυτον οτι εστιν θεος

And here is how these two verses translate:

First here is verse 3:

3μη (not) τις (a certain one) υμας (you) εξαπατηση (he/she/it should deceive/you should be deceived) κατα (by) μηδενα (no) τροπον (means) οτι (that/for/because) εαν (if) μη (not) ελθη (come) η (the) αποστασια (apostasy) πρωτον (first) και (and) αποκαλυφθη (he/she/it should be revealed) ο (the) ανθρωπος (man) της (of) αμαρτιας (sin) ο (the) υιος (son) της (of) απωλειας (perdition)

Do not [let] a certain one deceive you by any means because [?] unless the apostasy comes first and the man of sin should be revealed the son of perdition

As you can see, I have placed a question mark within the text because it appears that there is something missing, or perhaps it may have been left out intentionally…..I really don’t know.

In any case, that is why the words “that day shall not come” were added into the text by the translators, because it was needed in order to complete the sentence.

Now here is verse 4:

4ο (the) αντικειμενος (one who opposes) και (and) υπεραιρομενος (who is self exalted) επι (above) παντα (everything) λεγομενον (said to be) θεον (of God) η (or) σεβασμα (that is to be worshipped) ωστε (so as) αυτον (him) εις (in) τον (the) ναον (temple) του (of) θεου (God) ως (as) θεον (God) καθισαι (to sit) αποδεικνυντα (while showing) εαυτον (himself) οτι (that) εστιν (he is) θεος (God)

The one who opposes and is self exalted above everything called God or that is to be worshipped so as [for] him in the temple of God as God to sit while showing himself that he is God.

So as you can see, because verse 4 is a continuation of verse 3, it appears that the apostasy and the revealing of the man of sin, goes hand in hand with the man of sin, the son of perdition, the one who opposes and exalts himself so much as for him, in the temple of God, as God to sit while showing himself/pointing to himself that he is God.

Now the question is…………..

What is the apostasy that will lead to the revealing of the man of sin?

And what is the temple of God, that Paul is referring to, that the man of sin would dare to sit in, as a God, while showing himself/pointing to himself that he is God?

[Yogi]

Ahhh, I put you through some extra explanations but I think I understand them better than ever now.

[watching]

Hi Yogi,

I just realized something!!!!

All this time, I have been translating the word "εἰς" as "in," basically, because that's how it was translated by the KJV.

But, the fact of the matter, is that "εἰς" DOES NOT MEAN "in."



Why did I not see that before? Or why did I not question it?

See definition here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1519&t=KJV

So, basically, 2 Thessalonians 2:4 should read as follows:

The one who opposes and is self-exalted above everything said to be of God or that is worshipped, so as [for] him UNTO/TOWARDS the temple of God, as God to sit, while showing himself that he is God.

[Yogi]

Wow! Thanks, that could be significant. I'll be mulling this one over for a bit.

[watching]

Hi Yogi,

The reason I think this may be significant is because it implies having to reach towards the temple (through the opposing, and the exalting of himself), in order to enter in.

In other words, it doesn't seem to be readily accessible for him to just already be in it and then to sit.

This is yet another reason for why I am reminded of Daniel 8 verses 9-11.

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

So, as I said earlier in this thread, there appears to be something occurring in heaven as well as on earth; or possibly occurring in heaven just prior to events occurring on earth.

So, it could be that the temple that Paul was referring to is the actual TEMPLE OF GOD, and not an earthly temple.

Because if you will notice, in Matthew and Mark, Jesus refers to the abomination of desolation as STANDING in the holy place, or in the place where it ought not.

Jesus did not say anything about a temple or anyone sitting in it.

Keep in mind, however, as I pointed out earlier in this thread to say, "so as to sit," does not necessarily mean that he "will sit." This is just stating the extent to which he will oppose and exalt himself.

Because if you will look at other examples of hoste + infinitive it does not necessarily always refer to something that WILL happen, or that HAS happened.

Here is an example that I cited earlier in this thread, where something that was projected to happen using hoste + infinitive did not happen.

I will copy and paste it below, however. (That way I can get into edit mode, in order for all the colors to show up in the post.)

[watching]

Hi Lambslave,

Good to hear from you. Thanks for your reply.

It’s too bad ampersand apparently does not visit FP any longer. I learned a lot through our discussions.

Well, anyway, I was recently looking over this thread, because I was trying to remember what you had said regarding hoste + infinitive, when I noticed the following comment that ampersand had made.

when you speak of a "conceivable" sitting, you are referring to "how FAR the man of sin would go" or "what he is liable to do." In that case, the verb should be one of "possibility", and take on a subjunctive mood.

At the time, I didn’t know what was meant by the subjunctive mood, so I merely blew his comment off, at the time when he had made it. And it wasn’t until I was recently reviewing this thread, that I realized what he meant.

Needless, to say, his comment gave me pause about my conclusion that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 would be referring to a conceivable (for lack of a better term) seating, meaning that the scripture does not specifically tell us whether this event will actually take place, or not.

So, I decided to look at other examples of hoste + infinitive to see if, perhaps, ampersand might have been correct to say that, for my conclusion above to be correct, then this phrase would have had to have been expressed in the subjunctive mood, rather that the infinitive mood.

Well, it turns out, that I had to look no further than the very first example (although I did look for a few others, as well) to prove my point. And that example would be Matthew 8:24.

Matthew 8:24
King James Version (KJV)
24And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.

Here is how this verse reads in the Greek.

8:24 καὶ ἰδού, σεισμὸς μέγας ἐγένετο ἐν τῇ θαλάσσῃ ὥστε τὸ πλοῖον καλύπτεσθαι ὑπὸ τῶν κυμάτων αὐτὸς δὲ ἐκάθευδεν

And here is how this verse literally translates.

(But first, you have to keep in mind that, first of all, the word translated as “tempest” is the word σεισμὸς (seismos), which means earthquake, and the word translated as “covered” is the word καλύπτεσθαι, which is a form of the word καλύπτω (kalypto), which means to hide, or veil. Btw, this is the opposite of apocalypse (ἀποκάλυψις), which means the unveiling.)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4578&t=KJV
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2572&t=KJV

So, basically, here is how this verse translates from the Greek.

8:24 καὶ (and) ἰδού (behold), σεισμὸς (earthquake) μέγας (great) ἐγένετο (happened) ἐν (in) τῇ (the) θαλάσσῃ (sea) ὥστε (so as) τὸ (the) πλοῖον (ship) καλύπτεσθαι (to be veiled) ὑπὸ (under) τῶν (the) κυμάτων (waves) αὐτὸς (he) δὲ (but) ἐκάθευδεν (falling asleep)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=8&v=24&t=KJV#conc/24

Now here is how this would read in just the Greek.

And behold a great earthquake happened in the sea so as [for] the ship to be concealed under the waves but he was dosing off.

So, as you can see, this was not talking about a few waves splashing aboard the ship.

This was talking about a TSUNAMI.

Obviously, the ship did not get "covered" (completely hidden or veiled) by the waves, or else the disciples would not have been standing there talking to Jesus, when this happened.

So, I think this example more than proves that hoste + infinitive can, at times, be used as a mode of possibility.

[watching]

Hi Yogi,

So, as you can see from the example above, Jesus did not just calm a "bad storm."

He basically deflected, or stopped in it's tracks, a TSUNAMI from completely covering and concealing the ship.

This, obviously, did not already happen, when the disciples were talking to Jesus, because if it had, they would have been under water, and would not have been standing there talking to Jesus.

So, basically, in Matthew 8:24, Matthew is describing an earthquake that was SO great AS for the waves TO completely COVER and hide the ship. (Notice "SO AS" "TO COVER" --- hoste + infinitive.)

In other words hoste + infinitive in the above example is describing how great the earthquake was.

But what was projected to happen, and what the disciples saw coming, because the earthquake was so great, did NOT HAPPEN, because Jesus STOPPED it from happening.

Matthew 8:26

King James Version (KJV)

26And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

This also better explains the disciples reaction.

Matthew 8:27

King James Version (KJV)

27But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!

[lambslave]

I can't tell you how gratifying it is to see you working with the language and reasoning. lambslave