"He as God sitteth in the temple of God"

[watching]

Hi Pretzological,

Just found this by Clarence Wagner. I take it as a confirmation. What do you think?
"The Gold Lampstand and the Two Olive Trees (Zechariah 4)
Meaning: Israel as the light to the nations under Messiah, the King-Priest.

I meant to respond to your post about this a long time ago, but I got side tracked, when I was about to respond, and did not come back to it until now.

So, sorry for the delay.

In any case, here's what I think.

First of all let me say, that, although I agree with you and lambslave regarding Daniel 9, I can't say that I agree with you regarding the two witnesses.

But to answer your question, I, actually, do not know what to think regarding the two witnesses, because I really do not want to speculate as to their identity at this point.

But, here is where I have a couple of problems with your view:

For one thing Revelation 11 clearly states that the two witnesses are two prophets:

Revelation 11:10 (King James Version)

10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Also, Revelation 2:5 says:

Revelation 2:5 (King James Version)

5Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

If the candlestick represents the church in this case, then how can the church be removed from itself?

Btw, please note:

The word αυτης translated as "his" in the King James version above is actually "her" in the Greek, because it applies to the word λυχνιαν, which means candlestick or lampstand. And in the Greek, this word is a feminine gender.

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?search=AUTHS
http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?search=LUCNIAN

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 2:5 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

5μνημονευε ουν ποθεν εκπεπτωκας και μετανοησον και τα πρωτα εργα ποιησον ει δε μη ερχομαι σοι ταχει και κινησω την λυχνιαν σου εκ του τοπου αυτης εαν μη μετανοησης

Just thought I would point that out, so that there is no confusion regarding the use of the word "his" in the translation.

[Pretzelogical]

Interesting as always, Watching! I am heading into a busy time myself again.
1.)
Is it "remove" or "move"? I believe scripture clearly shows that one cannot lose their salavation. Can a church that has wolves in control be moved out of the way by Christ? So be it!

2.)
The bride of Christ is not one person.
The harlot is not one person.
Therefore, those who oppose the harlot do not need to be two people.
Actually, it would break the consistency of characters if they were just two people.

The two witnesses/prophets are to be seen slain all over the world. For centuries, believers understood this was possible without technology because the two witnesses are the two churches spread throught the world as Jesus commanded.

The Old and New Testaments are two witnesses, yet they are made of numerous authors.
Two churches can be two witnesses. My church is a witness here. Your church is a witness there.
"That church sure is a great witness to this community!"

Therefore, it is not a problem to my understanding.
I must follow the definitions given in scripture: two olive trees = two lampstands = two churches = two witnesses
The consistency of scripture serves as a great encouragement to me to stand firm and proclaim the truth.

I suppose this could get into what is a prophet? Do we have prophets today? Is a witness always a prophet? Is a prophet always a witness? And why not, since we have dragged this thread all over the place!


I really appreciate you doing the word studies, Watching! You are needed over at the thread Lambslave started yesterday. There is a great word study going on over there now! (Except for my long double post that deals with context.) viewtopic.php?f=14&t=55977

[Abiding in His Word]

The Old and New Testaments are two witnesses, yet they are made of numerous authors.
Two churches can be two witnesses. My church is a witness here. Your church is a witness there.
"That church sure is a great witness to this community!"

Therefore, it is not a problem to my understanding.
I must follow the definitions given in scripture: two olive trees = two lampstands = two churches = two witnesses
The consistency of scripture serves as a great encouragement to me to stand firm and proclaim the truth.

I'm wondering how you perceive these two witnesses being clothed in sackcloth.

[watching]

Hi Pretzological,

Is it "remove" or "move"?

Actually, it is "move."

Thanks for pointing that out.

ΑΠΟΚΑΛΥΨΙΣ ΙΩΑΝΝΟΥ 2:5 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

5μνημονευε ουν ποθεν εκπεπτωκας και μετανοησον και τα πρωτα εργα ποιησον ει δε μη ερχομαι σοι ταχει και κινησω την λυχνιαν σου εκ του τοπου αυτης εαν μη μετανοησης

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2795&t=KJV


However, according to the definition above, "move" can mean "remove."

Although I'm not sure if the intention of the writer of the Book of Revelation was for it be understood this way, or not.

It is, nevertheless, however, a possibility.

I guess you could look at it this way. If you were to move from your house, then you would no longer be at your house.

Would you?

But again, I am not stating if this was the intended meaning of the word "κινησω" or not.

I am only stating what could be understood from the use of the word based on the definition above, and based on the way it was translated by the King James.

But I concede that to move it from it's place, may not necessarily mean to remove it entirely.

Once again, I'm not sure what the intention of the original text was, so I wouldn't want to speculate either way, or form any opinions about it's meaning at this point.

So I guess my reply is:

I really appreciate you doing the word studies, Watching! You are needed over at the thread Lambslave started yesterday.

I will probably jump in eventually.

I'm just not sure what to say at this point.

[ampersand]

Hi Pretzological,

Is it "remove" or "move"?

Actually, it is "move."

...

Nice post, watching. I agree that that one word is literally "move." Examining the word in its context, however, the phrase seems to strongly indicate "removal." κινήσω...ἐκ τοῦ τόπου αὐτῆς. Moving something "out of" its place = removing it from its place.

But that's not the main point of my post. What I am wondering about is what is the candlestick's place? From Revelation 2:1, we see that Jesus is "ὁ περιπατῶν ἐν μέσῳ τῶν ἑπτὰ λυχνιῶν" -- the (One) walking in (the) midst (of) the seven candlesticks. If any of the candlesticks are removed from its place - is it effectively removed (perhaps positionally?) from its place among the other candlesticks - such that it can longer qualify as having Christ "walking" in its midst ?

Frightening thought. And yes, another rabbit trail for this great thread. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

in Christ,
&

[ampersand]

Hi Pretzelogical, (and lambslave, and whoever else thinks that the two witnesses of Rev 11 are two churches),

I can somewhat understand the points you are making about the two witnesses being two churches. However, I do have some questions about this concept:

1. How did you decide that the two witnesses are the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia?
2. If the two witnesses are represented by those two churches -- then you must also be assuming that these two are symbolic of some present-day churches? Or is it your position that the two witnesses/churches will actually be the churches physically dwelling in those cities today (somewhere in present-day Turkey)?
3. How did you decide that these churches are Jewish (ethnically, I'm assuming)?

I'm sure that you have probably addressed these questions before, as it seems that you are quite prolific on this topic. If you could refer me to some prior relevant post(s), I would be pleased .

Thanks much!

in Christ,
&

ps. I must point out something: I am using "church" in the sense of a "called-out assembly" -- the people, not the building. I'm only pointing this out b/c I sometimes use this word loosely. Not here, though!

[Pretzelogical]

I really don't think I have time to address this today, but how can I resist time in the word with brothers and sisters in Christ?! May the LORD grant me Godspeed in this!

Watching, you have made it clear to me how move/remove can be understandably used to mean the same thing. I get too locked down in one thought. So grateful God has you on the same walking path for this part of the journey!

such that it can longer qualify as having Christ "walking" in its midst ?

This fits perfectly with Jesus words, "The apostasy must come first" and Him standing outside the door knocking to be let into the church of Laodicea in Rev. 3:20.

Just my first thoughts flowing as I type...
...Yes, many apply this verse to an individual's salvation, and it is as Amp said, the church is made of individuals, so even though the context is Christ speaking to the church at Laodicea; it is also true to the individuals in that church as is taught elsewhere in Scripture. LORD, open the hearts and minds of our loved ones! Amen!

So, by definition, a church is made of believers. And Christ is in believers. So if Christ is in believers, how can He be outside the door of the church? Ahhhhh - it doesn't say outside the door of the church, but outside the door of where eating supper is taking place! Since Jesus is the bread - the pure word without the teaching with the leaven of the Pharisees; and His blood is the drink - and we are to be poured out like a drink offering in service to one another (Paul) is Jesus asking to be allowed in the teachings and good works of the believers? Again, a great picture of apostasy!

I always go back to Ezekiel 8 with the all the abominable worship going on in the temple. The Angel and Ezekiel look into the temple through the hole in the wall. They do not enter into the midst of the filth. Walls contain and protect truth. We stand on that truth to proclaim the LORD's salvation and to watch for His return. Christ is not in the midst of the temple with the abominations going on, but He is in His city, and in the heart and actions of His faithful servant, Ezekiel.

So Jesus is walking in the midst of the churches/lampstands, and the one is not shining brightly, but perahps is smoldering a heavy black smoke, so Jesus says He will move it away to not block out the light of the shining churches?

Why 2 Jewish churches? Read from Stephen's book at his website, in this thread and numerous others at this site:
http://expressright.com/wits.aspx
Just not enough time right now - but it has to do with those being the only two faithful churches; and the use of "synagogue of Satan".

I don't believe in replacement theology. God has disclosed a distinct plan for those faithful to Him from the tribes of Israel. Believers in Jesus have been grafted into Israel, according to the Scriptures, yes; but new shoots of Israel come up, of course! I see that as the 144,000. They are ethnic Jews who are believers in the Messiah Jesus. They are not political Edomites like the Pharisees of Jesus day. It will all happen as it did at His first coming with fakes ruling the religion in Israel, and now also, fakes ruling in the churches. Except two churches, Symrna and Philadelphia, measure up as Christ walks in the midst of the churches/lampstands.

I'm wondering how you perceive these two witnesses being clothed in sackcloth.

In their jammies at the computer.


Clothing is used to express righteousness, sin and grieving over sin. White, clean, shining garments for the pure bride. Opulent riches for the harlot. Sackcloth and ashes for the witnesses. A bride will put on her wedding clothes, but when she learns the groom has been killed by a thief, she will mourn in ashes until He comes riding on the clouds to take her with Him.

Believers wear sackcloth and uses ashes instead of oil. They are In the "streets" - everywhere they go - grieving over the false teachings of the church, the persecution of believers. They hear the voice of God to aid the needy, and cry out confessions for self and country as Daniel did in Chapter 9. They are on their faces as John did when he saw what God showed him was coming. It is not a costume worn by Pharisees.

"Don't worry, be happy" is not sackcloth and ashes. Who cares about fashion and looking good when you see evil triumph?!
I have just sat here instead of washing my hair, and I'll do make-up while I sit in the driveway waiting on my sister! That is sackcloth and ashes for me. Others have given up everything through trials and persecution to follow Christ. That is sackcloth and ashes. "The things of this world are growing strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace"!

The five gentile churches are doing some things right, and Jesus tells thems so. I believe in Daniel and elsewhere we see the destruction of the saints. However, the two Jewish churches are faithful witnesses and the whole world rejoices when they are killed all over the world. Then they are raised as the firstfruits from the dead. Then all in Christ shall rise to meet Him in the air. WHat glory that will be!

10 minutes left to shower and dress! I am meeting my sister who flew in. Due to a bad reaction to a medication she started taking last month, she is now blind in her right eye. (age 52) Thank you for praying for her!

[lambslave]

No Question that Jerusalem shall again be be Holy! I am a Jew. I do not question that. What I am saying is that the abomination of desolation is an individual who will take his stand because of the great destruction he brings against the church, which practically speaking today would be the US. This I see supported by other collateral passages like Daniel 8:24 "the mighty and holy people" LXX. We are the military ally of Israel. If we are suddenly disabled, those in Jerusalem will have to flee. (But we know the outcome.) :) Lambslave

[watching]

Hi lambslave,

I still don't get it.

Are you saying that ALL THE BELIEVERS OF THE WORLD are in the US?

And so, therefore, the US is the Holy Place?

And if something happens to the US that would be an abomination, because they wouldn't be able to defend Israel, even though God is going to defend Israel in the end?

And when the Jews see something happen to the US on TV, they will recognize it as the abomination of desolation, because they consider the US to be the holy place because ALL the Christians are there, and this will cause them to flee to the mountains?



edit: I just wanted to make it clear that these questions are, obviously, rhetorical, in an attempt to better understand lambslave's view and are not in any way statements on my part.

[lambslave]

Watching, IMO, I do not believe that the destruction of the arguable center of Christianity, the single, most powerful nation, the center of migration, the mixing pot of the world, where we could have the money and freedon to have the healthcare to have the technology to retrieve the data to have this conversation, will not go well on the evening news in Jerusalem. Someone somewhere just might make a few trip plans. lambslave (sometimes-but not alway--still trying)

[watching]

Hi lambslave,

arguable center of Christianity

If there is anything that I can agree with, it's that that is an arguable statement.

I, personally, do not think I would call the US the "center" of Christianity.

Are there not Christians in Europe and other parts of the world, some who are even being persecuted for their faith as we speak?

And who's to say where the most "true" Christians are located? (I certainly do not know.)

Only God knows the heart.

So I would not define the "Holy Place" (ἁγίῳ τόπῳ) as where the Christians are, because there are Christians all over the world, not just in the US.

How can anyone assume that only the US has Christians?


Actually this was going to be my post, until I decided to look up the Greek and noticed that it doesn't say "the holy place."

It, actually, says ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ......in [a] place [that's] holy.

Lexicon / Concordance for Matthew 24:15

24:15 Ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω

Here is a word for word translation:

Ὅταν when οὖν therefore ἴδητε you see τὸ the βδέλυγμα abomination τῆς of ἐρημώσεως desolation τὸ the ῥηθὲν spoken of διὰ by Δανιὴλ Daniel τοῦ the προφήτου prophet ἑστὸς standing ἐν in τόπῳ place ἁγίῳ holy ὁ the ἀναγινώσκων reader νοείτω understand
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&v=1&t=KJV#conc/15

Here is how I understand it:

when therefore you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in [a]place [that's]holy let the reader understand

This also brings me to another interesting observation, the word "read" ἀναγινώσκω is an interesting word. It doesn't just mean "read." It means to discern and distinguish by reading.

In other words to "study."
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... G314&t=KJV

In fact, the word that is used for "read" in Greek today is a different word, however, the concept is still the same.

In Greek the word for "read" and the word for "study" are the same word. They are used interchangeably.

So, here is what I think this means.

I think that whoever reads and studies the scriptures should be able to discern when the abomination of desolation stands in a place that is holy..... wherever it may be.

So, to summarize, although I believe that Jerusalem is a holy place, I cannot be sure that it is "the" place being referred to by the Lord in Matthew 24.....although, I cant' think of any other place that might be holy. (I'm referring to a place that someone can see, not someone's heart, because only God can see someone's heart.)

But, in any case, to reiterate, here's what I think.

Whenever the abomination of desolation takes place, I think it should be discernible (as to the Holy Place) to whomever has been "studying" the scriptures.

But, I still can't see the US as being a place that's holy.

[watching]

Hi Pretzelogical,

In other words, it seems to me, that the middle of the 70th week ends, as well as, begins with an abomination of desolation.

I have been wanting to elaborate on this comment, ever since I made it earlier in the thread.

But, I really feel the need to elaborate on it now, especially, in light of the fact that Pentecost is just a few days away.

If my, above, assumption is correct (I'm not saying that it is, or that it isn't, because I don't know. It is only an assumption that was made on my part.)

However, if it is correct, then that would mean that Firstfruits would have been fulfilled outside of the 70 weeks prophecy.

At first this bothered me, but then I realized that the 70 weeks prophecy is specifically concerning the Jewish people:

Daniel 9:24-27 (King James Version)

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,.................

Firstfruits, however, is not specific to the Jewish people, it is for everyone:

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (King James Version)

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

So if Firstfruits was fulfilled outside of the 70 weeks prophecy (again, I'm not saying that it was, or it wasnt..........I'm just saying if), then I don't see why Pentecost could not be fulfilled outside of the 70 weeks prophecy, as well.

Just saying. (For those of us interested in Pentecost.)

[Pretzelogical]

the 70 weeks prophecy is specifically concerning the Jewish people:

Brilliant observation, Watching! Daniel's people, also known as, The people of the Prince who is to come.

I see things coming down like Lambslave said on the "mighty and holy people" of whom Daniel wrote; but I see the destruction coming because of the apostasy, not war. That first rider of the white horse does not carry a weapon. (USA carries BIG weapons!) The rider should have the sword/the word of God to restrain evil. Instead, he goes out to conquor, without the sword/word. He is apostate! I see him as an apostate believer since the white horse signifies purity of the church made clean in the blood of Christ. Since Jesus said "the apostasy must come first" I see this first rider representing the apostasy that comes first: no sword (word of God) but still going out to conquor sin.

What happens as a result? Just what Jesus said will happen; just what the riders of the other horses to follow will bring: famine, disease and death. When the saints no longer stand firm, restraining evil, then the end will come. We must STAND FIRM. PREACH THE WORD. LOVE ONE ANOTHER.
The war is made plausible to Satan, due to the success of taking the rider's weapon, and the rider being foolish enough to think he can conquor without it. That is when Satan knows to strike! When the church no longers uses the word of God against sin, then Satan thinks he can win. He will make war on the saints from within with his wolves in sheeps' clothing as the word warns, and then after the apostasy, it is destruction that follows. Numerous times we are warned of the falling away and false teachers in order to not be deceived.

It makes sense for Satan to attack the USA - big news, for sure, as said! I see the war on the saints being done through the Mark of the beast - famine, disease, beheadings. We are seeing more government control with every reported "terrorist" attack. which points the accusing finger straight at our own government. It is a tool for the government take-over - the second rider, in my opinion, as of now.
Ready to learn more!

[ampersand]

...
Why 2 Jewish churches? Read from Stephen's book at his website, in this thread and numerous others at this site:
http://expressright.com/wits.aspx
Just not enough time right now - but it has to do with those being the only two faithful churches; and the use of "synagogue of Satan".

I don't believe in replacement theology. God has disclosed a distinct plan for those faithful to Him from the tribes of Israel. Believers in Jesus have been grafted into Israel, according to the Scriptures, yes; but new shoots of Israel come up, of course! I see that as the 144,000. They are ethnic Jews who are believers in the Messiah Jesus. They are not political Edomites like the Pharisees of Jesus day. It will all happen as it did at His first coming with fakes ruling the religion in Israel, and now also, fakes ruling in the churches. Except two churches, Symrna and Philadelphia, measure up as Christ walks in the midst of the churches/lampstands.
...

Thanks for the link, Pretzelogical. I have reviewed Stephen's page on the witnesses, and it makes some assumptions for which the reasons aren't fully clear.

You claim: the 2 Witnesses represent 2 of the churches addressed in the same letter, and the 2 specific churches represent collectively the end-times group of ethnic Jewish believers.

I can (sort of) see your reasoning for why the witnesses are Jewish and why the churches at Smyrna & Philadelphia are Jewish, but HOW DO YOU CONNECT THE TWO? Is it only b/c of ethnicity and the mutual "candle-stick" symbolism? And how can you decide that these two churches (Smyrna & Philadelphia) collectively represent ONE group of end-times believers?

In general, how do you decide that the 7 churches of Revelation are in any way specifically symbolic of other churches in history (end-times churches)? When you read the letter to the church at Ephesus, or Rome, or Corinth - do you also consider those churches to be specifically symbolic of present-day groups? If so, why?


ATM, I'm just trying to understand what your position is. Thanks for your help!

in Christ,
&

[Pretzelogical]

Why am I not receiving notice when posts to this thread occur?

Lambslave Stephen needs to address the two witnesses as I am still sorting through scriptures on it.

Isaiah 8:2
"And I will take to Myself faithful witnesses for testimony, Uriah the priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah."
We see in Zechariah, the office of king and priest as two olive trees witnessing/providing oil to the lamp.

The church of Symrna is addressed by the quality of Christ that he was dead and is alive; and they too will suffer unto death. They will given a crown of life and not be harmed of the second death.
Rev. 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

To Philadelphia, they are told they will be pillars in the temple. (Contrast a pillar in the temple with Lot's disobedient wife looking back on the destruction, and becoming a pilar of salt in the destroyed landscape of the desert.)
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

King and priest rewarded appropraitely for their faithful witness.

If just two men were the witnesses, I would say they would have to be "Uriah the priest and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah". However, since a harlot person equals a group of people in the book of Revelation, and the woman giving birth equals all of Israel, I see the two witnesses as two groups of people too. Not just a king and priest, but the two offices serving as two witnesses of Jesus as King and Priest.

Perhaps I should not use the tern "Jewish" since I am speaking of Hebrews, not just the southern tribes known as Judah. Interestingly, all through the Gospel of John (and elsewhere) the term "Jew" is used to denote the religious leaders who challenge Jesus. The term is not used of the Hebrew people. John even writes that it is the "Passover of the Jews" because he understood Jesus is the Passover Lamb of God. So in Revelation, John writes the Jews are not really Jews. They are not truly the priest and king leadership. Jesus is the High Priest and King of kings and He has His two faithful witnesses, the promised remnant, representing Him at the time of the end.

Numbers 24:19
"One from Jacob shall have dominion,And will destroy the remnant from the city."

2 Kings 19:30-31
' The surviving remnant of the house of Judah will again take root downward and bear fruit upward.
'For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant, and out of Mount Zion survivors The zeal of the LORD will perform this.

Isaiah 10:22
For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea,
Only a remnant within them will return;
A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.

[Pretzelogical]

In general, how do you decide that the 7 churches of Revelation are in any way specifically symbolic of other churches in history (end-times churches)? When you read the letter to the church at Ephesus, or Rome, or Corinth - do you also consider those churches to be specifically symbolic of present-day groups? If so, why?

John was taken to the day of the LORD, and saw the seven churches there at that time in the future. (Again, see Stephen's webpage on "The Day of the LORD".

I also believe the letters apply:
- to us as individuals
- to the churches at the time John wrote the vision
- as a timeline of history.
God's word is amazing in that there are multiple fulfillments. This is why Satan can fake fulfillments - like have his priest and king stand up and give witness to him, fooling unbelievers that he is the Christ. Also Satan deceives by saying all has been fulfilled so do not love the LORD's appearing, as we are commanded. God is making it very clear that He follows His word. We have seen Him do it and He will do it again.
Satan imitates a false remnant of Israel that worships the god of fortresses. This may be THE LIE of which scripture warns as Jesus says, they lie in saying they are Jews when they are not.
Zechariah 4:6
Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, ' Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.

As far as knowing my position...I am still learning and changing - hopefully growing.

[lambslave]

I'll post this evening. LS

[Pretzelogical]

How I miss Stephen!


Thinking aloud about priest and kings:

Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Why does Jesus only mention the crowns of two churches: Symrna and Philadelphia?

Revelation 2
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Their faithfulness will crown them. The high priest is commanded to wear the holy crown. Rulers wear crowns.
Two faithful churches as priest and king witnessing to the Israelite remnant?

Leviticus 21:12
Neither shall he go out of the sanctuary, nor profane the sanctuary of his God; for the crown of the anointing oil of his God is upon him: I am the LORD.

God will use Israel's witness to redeem the remnant of Israel.
Lamentations 5:16
The crown has fallen from our head; Woe to us, for we have sinned!
Isaiah 28:5
In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his peopleIsaiah 62:3
Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the LORD, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.
Zechariah 6:14
"Now the crown will become a reminder in the temple of the LORD..."
Zechariah 9:16
And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

Are faithful believers now as crowns of reminder in the temple/body of Christ? All believers are awarded crowns, but faithful ones are crowns? Is Israel made jealous, and so will return to the LORD, by Israelite witnesses?
Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Interesting to read of God's jealously (zeal) for His Israelites!
http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/ind ... spanend=73
And, yet again, I am taken to Ezekiel 8 and the image of jealousy in the temple!

Ezekiel 8
3 And he put forth the form of an hand, and took me by a lock of mine head; and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy.

4 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel was there, according to the vision that I saw in the plain.

5 Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry.

6 He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations.


1 Peter 5:4
And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Paul said:
1 Thessalonians 2:19
For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?
Philippians 4:1
Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.
2 Timothy 2:5
And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.
2 Timothy 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

[watching]

lambslave and Pretzelogical,

It's been a while since I've heard from either of you, and I pray that you are both okay.





To ampersand, (or anyone else who may be reading this)

In regard to 2 Thessalonians 2 verse 4

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (King James Version)

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I know that we lingered on the above verse quite a bit in this thread. And I don't mean to

But I would really like to clarify my view of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, once again, particularly my understanding of the aorist tense.

So, I've come up with another example to try and illustrate my point.

Here it is:

The singing competition contestant was so deceived about her talent, and so self exalted above every other singer, or honor that is given to singers of exceptional talent, so as, [for] her, in Yankee Stadium, to stand and sing the National Anthem, while showing herself that she is the greatest singer.

Now, does the above example mean that the singing contestant WILL necessarily stand in Yankee Stadium and sing the National Anthem, or is this just something she would be capable of doing?

It's hard to tell with this example, in my opinion.

So here is my point regarding the aorist tense.

I feel that in either language, whether you are speaking in Greek, or English, when you use the term "to sit," the implication, by default, is future, unless the context indicates otherwise.

For example, if I say, "I want to sit."

The implication is future, because I am not sitting now, and I'm not speaking of the past, so there is no other alternative. But, then again, it doesn't mean I necessarily will sit in the future.

So, in the above example, the implication is obviously future. But that is only the implication.

However, if I say, "I wanted to sit," then the implication is, obviously, past tense, based on the context.

So, basically, the context is what defines the tense. But when the context is not clear in terms of tense, the implication, by default, is future.

But, as I said before, that doesn't necessarily mean it WILL happen in the future.

At least that's my understanding.

I just wanted to clarify that.



So, in terms of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (as well as Revelation 11:2, btw, but that's another subject), my feeling is that based on the grammar of the sentence, and the word choices, I really do not feel that either of these verses, necessarily, PROVE a literal, future, Jewish, humanly built temple.

Then again, I'm not necessarily saying that they DISPROVE a literal, future, humanly built Jewish temple either.

I'm only saying that I don't see how they can be used to PROVE it.

[Shelby]

Hi watching,

I wanted to read one of Pretzelogical's older posts the other day, so I clicked on her name to find the post and it said "user no longer exists". And, I have also looked forward to hearing more posts from lambslave.

[watching]

Hi Shelby,

Thanks for letting me know that.

Btw,

[Shelby]

Thank you, watching :)

[ampersand]

Hey watching! Long time no debate .

...
So here is my point regarding the aorist tense.

I feel that in either language, whether you are speaking in Greek, or English, when you use the term "to sit," the implication, by default, is future, unless the context indicates otherwise.

I'm afraid you are mistaken...the implication, by default, is "nothing", unless the context indicates otherwise. "To sit" has NO temporal info, not even a hint, UNLESS there is some context.

For example, if I say, "I want to sit."

The implication is future, because I am not sitting now, and I'm not speaking of the past, so there is no other alternative. But, then again, it doesn't mean I necessarily will sit in the future.

You have given CONTEXT ("I am not sitting now"), that's why the implication is future. HOWEVER, the phrase by itself has NO temporal info about when the sitting is to take place. The ONLY temporally-localizable action is "want" -- you presently WANT "to sit", however...when that sitting is to take place is not indicated even slightly in that statement

You could be sitting and still say "I want to sit"
You could be standing and say "I want to sit"

The implication is NOT obviously future (without context!). It's up in the air w.r.t. to when the sitting should take place, though the wanting is definitely present.

So, in the above example, the implication is obviously future. But that is only the implication.

However, if I say, "I wanted to sit," then the implication is, obviously, past tense, based on the context.

So, basically, the context is what defines the tense. But when the context is not clear in terms of tense, the implication, by default, is future.

I just cannot see ANY way to justify this statement. The tense is defined by the word structure. The "wanting" here is past tense, but the "sitting" could have been future or during the time of the wanting. You could have been sitting already, while you were "wanting" to sit.

So, in terms of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (as well as Revelation 11:2, btw, but that's another subject), my feeling is that based on the grammar of the sentence, and the word choices, I really do not feel that either of these verses, necessarily, PROVE a literal, future, Jewish, humanly built temple.

Then again, I'm not necessarily saying that they DISPROVE a literal, future, humanly built Jewish temple either.

I'm only saying that I don't see how they can be used to PROVE it.

I AGREE 100%.



in Christ,
&

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

Good to see you!

Where have you been all this time?

Anyway, how about another Greek lesson? (As if I'm anyone to be giving lessons. )

But remember in another thread when we were discussing modern Greek and you pointed out that the form katsei (I'm typing this phonetically) was listed as aorist tense, and my knee jerk reaction was to say that that word was used for future tense?

Well, the reason I said that, was because if someone says that word by itself, with nothing else attached to it, and asks me what tense that word is, that is what immediately comes to mind. (At least to me it does.)

For example, this does not work very well in English, because in English the word "sit" is used for present tense and future tense, and there is no other word for sit in the aorist tense, so that makes it more complicated, but if I were to ask you what tense is the word "sit," what is the first thing that would come to your mind?

As I said, this doesn't really work as well in English, because in English, I would probably automatically say present tense.

But that is not always the case. Is it?

Because sometimes sit is used for future tense (among other things), as in, "I will sit."

Is this making sense? Because, I'm already confusing myself.

edit: Maybe, I should ask it this way.

If before we had done this study, and learned all about the "aorist tense," if someone were to ask you, "what tense is 'to sit'?," what would you say?



Anyway,

So, in terms of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (as well as Revelation 11:2, btw, but that's another subject), my feeling is that based on the grammar of the sentence, and the word choices, I really do not feel that either of these verses, necessarily, PROVE a literal, future, Jewish, humanly built temple.

Then again, I'm not necessarily saying that they DISPROVE a literal, future, humanly built Jewish temple either.

I'm only saying that I don't see how they can be used to PROVE it.



I AGREE 100%.

I'm glad we agree on something!

[ampersand]

Hi ampersand,

Good to see you!

Right back atcha, watching!

... but if I were to ask you what tense is the word "sit," what is the first thing that would come to your mind?

... If before we had done this study, and learned all about the "aorist tense," if someone were to ask you, "what tense is 'to sit'?," what would you say? [/color]

I would recognize "to sit" as an infinitive, which as such has NO TIME info. The focus is on the ACTION, not the time of the action. That's all I would think, because that's all there is really to think from that one word.

However, if we return to 2Thess2:4, we see "hoste" + "to sit", so we have at least a little bit of temporal info...and that is: that this "sitting" (of whatever sort it may be) is a RESULT or CONSEQUENCE of "opposing" and "self-exalting". As such, "to sit" can be concurrent with the "opposing" and "self-exalting" OR after it, but not before.

I am of the opinion that the "sitting" is contemporaneous with "opposing" and "self-exalting", while still being the consequence of those actions. This opinion is directly related to my understanding of this verse as referring to those that will partake in the apostasia (as I laid out earlier). These unbelievers are "opposing" and "self-exalting" on a continual basis, and in consequence, effectively "seating" themselves in the "temple of God".


in Christ,
&

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

I personally do not see it as referring to more than one person.

But whatever floats your boat.



What can I say?

[ampersand]

But whatever floats your boat.

This decidedly does NOT "float my boat." I would rather see something else in these verses -- I would rather this passage was about ONE man of sin that we could just heap all the blame on. That would be easier to grasp and deal with...



. . .BUT ANYWAY, we were discussing "to sit", were we not?

in Christ,
&

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

I would rather this passage was about ONE man of sin that we could just heap all the blame on.

I wasn't referring to all of 2 Thessalonians 2.

No doubt there is plenty of blame to go around.

But I was just referring particularly to 2 Thessalonians 2 verses 3 and 4.

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

. . .BUT ANYWAY, we were discussing "to sit", were we not?

Okay.

I would recognize "to sit" as an infinitive, which as such has NO TIME info.

You might be right about that. Maybe it's just me.

I am of the opinion that the "sitting" is contemporaneous with "opposing" and "self-exalting", while still being the consequence of those actions. This opinion is directly related to my understanding of this verse as referring to those that will partake in the apostasia (as I laid out earlier). These unbelievers are "opposing" and "self-exalting" on a continual basis, and in consequence, effectively "seating" themselves in the "temple of God".

(I will ignore the part about the unbelievers and focus on the grammar only, if that's okay.)

I do not in any way agree with you that this is referring to an "effective" seating.

To me this verse refers to a "conceivable" sitting maybe, but not an effective seating.

If it was referring to an effective seating, it would have been stated as such:

the opposing one and exalted one above everything called God or that is worshiped so as for him in the temple of God as God as if to sit while showing himself that he is God.

And in Greek it would have been stated something like this:

4ο αντικειμενος και υπεραιρομενος επι παντα λεγομενον θεον η σεβασμα ωστε αυτον εις τον ναον του θεου ως θεον ws καθισαι αποδεικνυντα εαυτον οτι εστιν θεος

[ampersand]

"ws" instead of hoste would mean that the man of sin is sitting in the same manner as God, AND THAT"S ALREADY IN THE VERSE!

This "hoste" cannot be replaced by "hos" to make the seating "effective"...I wonder if you are misunderstanding what I mean by "effective", or if I am using the wrong adjective to describe what I mean. . .



In any case, if you wish to go down the path of pointing out how the verse should be changed to match your or mine interpretation, I will indulge -----when you speak of a "conceivable" sitting, you are referring to "how FAR the man of sin would go" or "what he is liable to do." In that case, the verb should be one of "possibility", and take on a subjunctive mood.

in Christ,
&

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

"ws" instead of hoste would mean that the man of sin is sitting in the same manner as God, AND THAT"S ALREADY IN THE VERSE!

Agreed.

This "hoste" cannot be replaced by "hos" to make the seating "effective"...I wonder if you are misunderstanding what I mean by "effective", or if I am using the wrong adjective to describe what I mean. . .

I'm not talking about replacing "hoste."

I'm saying for it to be referring to an "effective" sitting as you are proposing, then "as if" or "ws" would have to be ADDED IN TO WHAT'S ALREADY THERE so it would say, "so as, as if, to sit."

Understand?

In any case, if you wish to go down the path of pointing out how the verse should be changed to match your or mine interpretation, I will indulge -----when you speak of a "conceivable" sitting, you are referring to "how FAR the man of sin would go" or "what he is liable to do."

First of all, I am not interpreting the verse, I am explaining my understanding of it's meaning based on the structure of the sentence.

Unlike others, I am not trying to MAKE IT CONFORM any particular "theory" that I might have.

Because, I have none, other than taking the scripture for what IT ACTUALLY SAYS!

In that case, the verb should be one of "possibility", and take on a subjunctive mood.

I really don't know what you're talking about.

[watching]

Btw, if you want to go that path, "to" is a preposition which primarily indicates approach and arrival, motion made in the direction of a place or thing and attaining it, access; and also, motion or tendency without arrival; movement toward; -- opposed to from.

So if one were to say "to sit," and nothing else.

The implication would be FUTURE.

[ampersand]

Btw, if you want to go that path, "to" is a preposition which primarily indicates approach and arrival, motion made in the direction of a place or thing and attaining it, access; and also, motion or tendency without arrival; movement toward; -- opposed to from.

So if one were to say "to sit," and nothing else.

The implication would be FUTURE.

oh watching, I'm sorry, but you misunderstand what an infinitive is. In "to sit" the "to" does not really mean anything, that is just how an "infinitive" is constructed in English. "kathisai" is an infinitive, which is rendered as "to sit" in English, but because it is an "infinitive" it DOES NOT have ANY temporal info..it's not past, present, or future!!! An infinitive does NOT have tense! It does not IMPLY tense either! That is what a basic infinitive is.





in Christ,
&

[watching]

oh watching, I'm sorry, but you misunderstand what an infinitive is. In "to sit" the "to" does not really mean anything, that is just how an "infinitive" is constructed in English.

I am not misunderstanding; "to sit" can be construed as in infinitive, based on the context of the sentence, but absent any context it functions as a preposition, as it is supposed to do, thereby making the implication FUTURE.

"kathisai" is an infinitive, which is rendered as "to sit" in English, but because it is an "infinitive" it DOES NOT have ANY temporal info..it's not past, present, or future!!! An infinitive does NOT have tense! It does not IMPLY tense either! That is what an infinitive is.

I agree, but it can have an IMPLICATION, based on context. An implication does not mean that it IS past, present, or future, it's just an implication, which is derived by the context, or lack thereof.

But as I said before, there is always an implication of in terms of past, present, or future in MODERN language.

However, I'm not sure if that was the case in ancient language, or not.

[ampersand]

Watching, this isn't making sense, at least not to me...I'm not trying to be annoying or smart here, this just does not fit any rules of grammar that I have ever encountered.



Allow me to refresh both of our memories...we are discussing "Kathisai"...which is an aorist infinitive, which as such has no tense. Kathisai is most appropriately rendered in the ENGLISH language using the infinitive "to sit", which also has no tense.




Now, you say that "the implication is future"...which part of 2 Thess 2:4, "implies" a future sitting?

[watching]

What I am saying is that in terms of the way this sentence is rendered in modern English, or modern Greek, it is CONCEIVABLE (based on the context) as to occurring in the FUTURE by implication.

However, as I said before, I'm not sure if "kathisai," being that it is ONE WORD, had an implication inherit in it, or not.

[ampersand]

...it is CONCEIVABLE (based on the context) as to occurring in the FUTURE by implication.

What I'm asking is what part of the context implies a future action?

[watching]

to sit

[ampersand]

to sit

no, what part of the context (that is, what part of the passage in 2 Thess 2) implies that "to sit" is future?


(because "to sit", is not future per se).

[watching]

"so as to sit" implies that it is conceivable to occur.

And the implication of "to occur" is future.

Unless, kathisai were to be in the indicative mood, as I previously thought, In which case the implication would be that it occurred in the past, but not necessarily as a singular act.

[watching]

Hi ampersand,

I'm not trying to be annoying or smart here............

Actually, I think you were trying to be "smart," and although I do find it a little annoying, I'm actually quite thankful for it.

Because if it weren't for your "smartness" in challenging everything I say, I wouldn't have realized my former errors, nor would I have learned as much as I have in this thread.

Just thought I would let you know that.

[ampersand]

Well, then, please accept my sincere apologies for coming off like that...I promise that wasn't my intent. I'm just trying to discuss these things as I would discuss them with you face-to-face. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone.


I have benefited much from this discussion as well, and I THANK YOU (and lambslave, wherever he is) for that .

[watching]

ampersand,

I don't know if you're still around or not, but for anyone who might be interested,

I just thought of something, that I had never thought of before;

I'm wondering if the verse in question might be referring to something that might occur, or might possibly be attempted, or contemplated to occur in the heavenly realm.

Here is the verse in question:

2 Thessalonians 2:4 (King James Version)

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Because consider the following verses:

Daniel 8:9-12 (King James Version)

9And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

12And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 11:29-45 (King James Version)

29At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

30For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

32And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

42He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Daniel 12:1-4 (King James Version)

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-8 (King James Version)

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a *falling away literally: apostasy/rebellion first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, *until he be taken out of the way. *literally: until out of the middle he becomes, i.e. comes into existence (emphasis mine)

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Revelation 12 (King James Version)

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

edited to add verses 29 through 39 to Daniel 11 verses quoted above

[Yogi]

Hi folks, mind if I add a different perspective?

It is my belief that this is another example of straining at the mechanics of the words, which definitely has its place, rather than "hearing the voice" of the one speaking. Sometimes doing so can provide the true intent and meaning. There is a good reason for exploring this avenue...there were NO punctuations in the original texts.

Try this: Applying the pauses in the sentence to the right place(s) you can see there need not be a temple at all. This can be seen when a comma is placed after the word, "he".

For example: ...so that he, as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That little, subtle pause can show that Paul is describing, not a location. but a behavior! Acting as if he is God in God's temple!

To take it a step further, this mocker doing so in a video or broadcast etc. would very much like John's mention of an "image" that "lives"! It could also exactly fit Jesus' own words about SEEING an abomination IN THE HOLY PLACE.!!! To top it off, if this is also done, let's say, at the Wailing Wall, it would technically fit Daniel's prophecy too. (the word used for "temple" is actually even used for very temple mount)

This may be too much of a stretch for some. However I am pretty convinced of its validity. Consider some of the other impossibilities required to make other scenarios work.

[watching]

Hi Yogi,

Actually, the placement of the comma has already been debated in this thread.

I know this is a long thread, but it may be worth your while to read through it; a lot was learned and discovered along the way in this thread.

I appreciate your input, however.

Please let me know what you think after you have read through the thread.

[watching]

On second thought, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to read through this entire thread, so I will go ahead and reply to your comment.

Frankly, placing the commas where you have suggested is just not supported in the Greek.

After much diligent study, here is the exact (to the best of my knowledge) word for word translation of 2 Thessalonians 2:4

ΠΡΟΣ ΘΕΣΣΑΛΟΝΙΚΕΙΣ Β΄ 2:4 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

4ο αντικειμενος και υπεραιρομενος επι παντα λεγομενον θεον η σεβασμα ωστε αυτον εις τον ναον του θεου ως θεον καθισαι αποδεικνυντα εαυτον οτι εστιν θεος

ο (the) αντικειμενος (one who is opposed) και (and) υπεραιρομενος (one who is self-exalted) επι (over) παντα (everything) λεγομενον (called/said) θεον (God/of God) η (or) σεβασμα (that which is worshiped) ωστε (so as) αυτον (him) εις (in) τον (the) ναον (temple) του (of) θεου (God) ως (as) θεον (God) καθισαι (to sit) αποδεικνυντα (while showing) εαυτον (himself) οτι (that) εστιν (he is) θεος (God)

Now just the Greek:

the one who is opposed and self-exalted above everything called God or worshiped so as [for] him in the temple of God as God to sit while showing himself that he is God

or you could say it this way:

the one who is opposed and self-exalted above everything said to be of God or which is worshiped so as [for] him in the temple of God as God to sit while showing himself that he is God

Please note: the word "for" was added to make this more readable in English.

So, as you can see, it is not possible to place the commas where you are suggesting based on the construction and word order of this sentence in the original Greek.

[watching]

Getting back to my above post, I just want to clarify that I am suggesting events taking place in the heavenly realm in conjunction with, or in close proximity to events taking place in the earthly realm; not just in the heavenly realm.

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the Temple of God......


I Corth. 3:16.......KNOW YE NOT THAT YE ARE THE TEMPLE OF GOD?, and that the SPIRIT of GOD dwelleth in you?

17....If any man DEFILE THE TEMPLE of God....Him shall GOD Destroy:
for the TEMPLE OF GOD IS HOLY, Which Temple YE ARE....

18....Let No Man Deceive Himself....
If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world,
let him Become a Fool, that he may be wise.....


HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD.....
HE satan.......takes over the body of christ by deception.....
False teaching....false prophets....false church.....deceiving if possible the very elect....by false believing

Jesus said....
Matt. 24:15.....When Ye Therefore shall see the ABOMINATION of DESOLATION.....
Spoken of by Daniel the Prophet....Stand in the HOLY PLACE...(THE BODY OF CHRIST)
(Whose Readeth, let Him Understand)...

The Holy Place.....The Church.....Jesus died for the Church....The Church...those Anointed with the Holy Spirit
Our Bodies, the church, the Temple of God, or the dwelling place of God....Bought by the Blood of Jesus......
...when you see the false standing in the Holy Place...the church....the Falling Away...that Paul
talks about in II Thess. 2.......falling away from the Truth of the Gospel......

Jesus said.....24:16 Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:
21...For then shall be great Tribulation, such as was not since the Beginning of the World to this time, No, Nor Ever shall be....

24...For there shall arise False Christs, and False Prophets, and shall shew Great Signs and Wonders;
Insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect...
25...BEHOLD, I have told you before.....


Daniel 8:13b....How long shall be the Vision concerning the Daily Sacrifice, and the transgress of Desolation, to give both the sanctuary...(the church)... and the host to be trodden underfoot?
14....And he said unto me....
UNTIL TWO THOUSAND AND THREE HUNDRED DAYS;
Then shall the Sanctuary (the church) be Cleansed....


Daniel 9:22...And he informed me, and talked with me, and said....O DANIEL, I Am come forth to give thee Skill and Understanding...
23...At the Beginning of thy Supplications the Commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee:
for thou art Greatly Beloved:\Therefore Understand the Matter, and consider the vision...
24....Seventy Weeks are determined
25....Know therefore and Understand
26...And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off...
27...And He (Jesus) shall confimr the BLOOD COVENANT WITH MANY FOR ONE WEEK...

2300 DAYS......
And the Midst of the week...He Jesus shall cause the sacrifice...The Blood Sacrifice and the Oblation....the Intercession to cease....WHY...and For the Overspreading of Abomination....Our Sins are Full..The Temple of God is Fallen away from
the Truth of the Gospel......The church has lost it's witness and fallen into An Abomination because the false Christ...the antichrist spirit takes over the body of Christ.......and He Jesus shall make it desolate, Even Until the Consummation (The Marriage of the Bride)
and that determined shall be Poured upon the Desolate...(The Seven Viols of the Indignation, The Wrath of God is Poured upon the Desolate.....and Satan is Bound for a Thousand Years)....
And the KINGDOM OF GOD IS SET UP ON THIS EARTH FOR A THOUSAND YEARS......And Righteousness shall Reign
This is going to be The Manifestation of the Sons of God on this earth...We will Rule and Reign on this Earth with Jesus for a Thousand years.....

Isaiah 11:9....They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My Holy Mountain:
For the Earth shall be Full of the Knowledge of the Glory of the Lord, as the Waters Cover the Sea.....

What? Know Ye Not that Your Body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit......
And Paul ....Acts 28:31...Paul...Preaching the Kingdom of God, and Teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all Confidence, no man forbidding Him.....
And I John 2: 19.....They went out from us...but they were Not of Us;
for, if they had been of us, they would No Doubt have Continued with us:
But they went out, that they might be Made Manifest that they were Not All of Us...
20...BUT WE HAVE AN UNCTION FROM THE HOLY ONE, AND YE KNOW ALL THINGS....


Jesus has sent His Holy Spirit and Our Body is His Temple....He will lead us and Guide us into ALL Truth...


Glory
Mrs. B

[Mrs. B]

He as God sitteth in the Temple of God.....


He is sitting in the Church.......deceiving if possible the very elect......

Mrs. B

[mark s]

I still don't believe that Satan can share the same space in the born again believer with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4 says that we are patterned after God Himself, created in "righteousness and true holiness". This is our new man. This is who we are. Even when we walk in the ways of the flesh, we have not lost our new nature.

"True holiness" - Holiness is being set apart for God. Our holiness is true. The new creation that we have become is truly set apart for God.

Love in Christ,
Mark